MP1 and MP2 - together?

[SupaDave]

I've been reading a lot of talk about out interior and I've seen a few people hint at it but no one seems to come right out and say it so I'm wondering...

How much could Miles and Mason play together and does this scenario present an advantage for the team?

There have been a number of brothers to play together in recent years and the combos have worked out brilliants for some teams - the Lopez brothers and the Griffin brothers for starters and then CJ and Xavier as Kansas' new brother duo. I know that there are more.

The line-up of Miles, Mason, Singler, Scheyer, and Nolan sounds very tough indeed when you factor in Miles' bulk and Mason's obvious advantages playing at the four - plus the four would allow him to do a lot of help shot blocking. Just nasty.

Add in the fact that you just KNOW what your brother's gonna do and it brings a smile to my eyes.

[DukieInBrasil]

i remember seeing that combo brought up a few times. I think it will probably happen at times, and i really only have one concern about it (not being the coach, my opinion means about 0.0) and that would simply be that they are the most inexperienced combo of F that we could put on the floor, aside from combos with Ryan Kelly. I think it could be a very nice combo, but Miles didn´t show that he can be that powerful of a force last year and we haven´t seen Mason in a Duke game yet, so it´s hard to get too excited about it as of now. Hopefully, they´ll set the gym on fire with their amazing skill and virtuosity. Go MP I&II!!!

[bass-piscator]

Did not Jon mention that Miles has been a monster this summer?

[BlueintheFace]

Did not Jon mention that Miles has been a monster this summer?

He did. If one combines that comment with the rumors of Mason's natural ability.... one might surmise that we will be seeing a lot of Smith, Scheyer, Singler, Plumlee1, Plumlee2. Quite the combo of size and experience.

[jimsumner]

I'm sure this is one of the 4/5 combos we'll see early in the season. If it works, we'll see more of it. If not, there are other options.

[Memphis Devil]

I have already made it known that this is my combo of choice for next season. Obviously, Z has the experience that MP1 doesn't have and that can be huge, but it can also be overcome. Athletically, compared to Z, MP1 is Michael Jordan and MP2 is just playing a whole different game. I get a little giddy everytime I think about the possibility of two 6-11 big men who can run the floor like a SF, jump out of the gym, and shoot (well at least one of them) out to the 3 point line with consistency......sorry about the pause. I was thinking about MP1 grabbing a defensive rebound over Deon Thompson, outletting the ball to his little brother at the timeline who turns and glides down court like a big guard. He launches himself a few feet outside the low block and throws it down and hangs there with his arm threw the rim (ala Vince Carter) and just stares at the Carolina faithful as they sit there dumbfounded. Yes, it would draw a technical, but damn that would be sweet and the best part of the whole thing is that it [U]could[U] happen!

[RainingThrees]

I haven't seen anyone talk about Lance Thomas. Where does he fit in during his senior year? I would expect him to get some burn at the 4 since his competition would now be MP1 and Ryan Kelly, and I don't see Kelly playing that much this year.

[thewiseben]

I'm hoping, like other posters, that the brothers Plumlee will provide a combo that is more the sum of its parts, but I don't think we should discount how excitingly deep we're going to be in the paint this year.

With MP1, MP2, Z all able (to varying degrees) to play the 5, we're going to have the ability to keep Lance at the 4 (where he belongs), and use up the remaining minutes with the other MP and Kelly.

I really love that Singler gets to move out to the perimeter to play the 3, but I hope that we can occasionally spell him with Kelly whose offensive skills are pretty similar to the ones Singler brings. I hope he can pick up a lot of the tricks that Singler's used in the last few years to really exploit the mismatch potential that a quick big man has.

[airowe]

I'm hoping, like other posters, that the brothers Plumlee will provide a combo that is more the sum of its parts, but I don't think we should discount how excitingly deep we're going to be in the paint this year.

With MP1, MP2, Z all able (to varying degrees) to play the 5, we're going to have the ability to keep Lance at the 4 (where he belongs), and use up the remaining minutes with the other MP and Kelly.

I really love that Singler gets to move out to the perimeter to play the 3, but I hope that we can occasionally spell him with Kelly whose offensive skills are pretty similar to the ones Singler brings. I hope he can pick up a lot of the tricks that Singler's used in the last few years to really exploit the mismatch potential that a quick big man has.

Kelly is 6'10", Singler is 6'8". If Kelly has a quick shot and is as good as advertised at 3 point shooting, he's gonna get a ton of points, fast. There's not a lot of guys his size who will be able to get out on him, and even if they do, they're going to be leaving guys open down low. This is why I see LT being on the floor at the same time Kelly is, almost all the time (barring foul trouble -- which is a common thing for LT or injury.) With Ryan being a matchup problem for the other team on offense and a liability (I'm projecting) on defense, we'll need to do the 3/4 switch with Ryan and LT on O/D.

Mason (again I'm projecting) seems to have a little quicker feet on D and shouldn't have as big of a matchup problem as Ryan on the opposing team's 3 so I could definitely see times when we have a lineup like this (pretending we have positions):

5 - Zoubek
4 - MP1
3 - MP2
2 - Kyle
1 - Nolan

I put Nolan in there instead of Jon because I think he'd be able to stay with the quickest player on the court better and we'd need someone like that on the court in this scenario.

Other times, we could see:

5 - MP1
4/3 - LT
3/4 - Ryan Kelly
2 - Kyle
1 - Scheyer
This lineup gives us a crazy height advantage over most teams with our smallest player being Scheyer (listed at 6'5")

I would have to believe our best Defensive lineup (playing a bigger team) would be:

5 - Z
4/3 - LT
3/4 - MP2
2 - Singler
1 - Nolan

Defensive lineup (against a smaller quicker team)

5 - MP1
4/3 - LT
3/4 - Singler
1/2 - Scheyer
2/1 - Nolan

Going completely off-topic, if Andre and Ryan have the touch from the outside everyone says they do, we could absolutely destroy a team that was trying to zone us and was smaller than us, with a lineup like this:

5 - MP2
4/3 - Kelly
3/4 - Singler
2 - Dawkins
1 - Scheyer

[elvis14]

You can add me to the list of people that hope that MP1 and MP2 play well enough to get significant minutes together. Z is great...situationally and Lance is a known quantity. I'm hoping that MP1 and MP2 can deliver and take our interior play up a level from where it was next year. That said, I just want to have an effective inside game on both ends of the court. If it turns out that Z and LT can find a way to take things to the next level, I'll be very happy.

[SMO]

Did not Jon mention that Miles has been a monster this summer?

Speaking of monsters, I'm dying to see 5 out of these 6 players in some sort of combination on the floor at the same time:

Zoubek
MP1
MP2
Singler
Scheyer
Kelly

I'm not big on pointing out race in sports, but a lineup like this is atypical to say the least.

[superdave]

K will likely play Zoubek only when we need him because of matchups (Alabi, Favors, Davis). I doubt he averages 30 mpg much less 20. More likely he plays 25 minutes some games and 0 others.

So yeah the MPs will see time together and where it's to our advantage, a lot of time.

Lance probably plays the 4 in any lineup. His time will be limited if the MPs can provide similar D to Lance and consistent scoring which Lance does not provide.

[jimsumner]

"His time will be limited if the MPs can provide similar D to Lance "

A really big if, IMO. I don't look for Lance to drop off the depth chart any time soon.

[airowe]

"His time will be limited if the MPs can provide similar D to Lance "

A really big if, IMO. I don't look for Lance to drop off the depth chart any time soon.

I agree. I think Lance will get a lot of PT as our defensive stopper/rebounder. He almost has to be on the court when Kelly is (minus garbage time) and when we're playing a team with a 3 who's too quick for Kyle to guard, he'll be on the court then as well...

Lance is a valuable role player who will have a lot to say about our success.

[BD80]

Speaking of monsters, I'm dying to see 5 out of these 6 players in some sort of combination on the floor at the same time:

Zoubek
MP1
MP2
Singler
Scheyer
Kelly

I'm not big on pointing out race in sports, but a lineup like this is atypical to say the least.

Well, if there were a race, the team listed would likely not fare well.

[OldSchool]

I see Lance as our starter at the 4 as the season opens.

However, I could see MP2 with his advantage in size and athleticness moving ahead of Lance by the time conference play rolls around, IF MP2 can prove he is smart and disciplined on defensive assignments.

But even then, I think Lance will get the equivalent of starter's minutes as the sixth man.

I think Z will start and finish the season as the starter at the 5, but MP1 will get lots of minutes.

What is harder to foresee is Ryan's minutes - if he can handle the defensive end of things, he could get significant minutes in a 3/4 role. In that case, we could see Kyle at the 2 on occasion.

[ACCBBallFan]

I agree. I think Lance will get a lot of PT as our defensive stopper/rebounder. He almost has to be on the court when Kelly is (minus garbage time) and when we're playing a team with a 3 who's too quick for Kyle to guard, he'll be on the court then as well...

Lance is a valuable role player who will have a lot to say about our success.I agree with this post.

On your other, don't get too carried away with lineups that only have one guard. Jon wll play 30-35 MPG and Nolan 30 MPG plus Dawkins will get his 10-15 MPG.

With respect to starters, I actualy prefer the biggest lineup to give Z three rotations of 3-4 MPG in first half and 2 in second half. I doubt he plays during stall ball, toal 15 MPG, max 20 MPG.

Scheyer/Smith
Smith/Dawkins
Singler/Kelly
Mason/Lance
Zoubek/Miles

Lance as 6th man can sub in at PF and a Plumlee plays center.

when Miles subs in, he can be with Lance or Mason.

[jimsumner]

"However, I could see MP2 with his advantage in size and athleticness moving ahead of Lance by the time conference play rolls around, IF MP2 can prove he is smart and disciplined on defensive assignments.

But even then, I think Lance will get the equivalent of starter's minutes as the sixth man.

I think Z will start and finish the season as the starter at the 5, but MP1 will get lots of minutes."

I think this leaves out a lineup we will see with some regularity, Mason Plumlee and Lance Thomas in together.

IMO Duke absolutely has got to have Thomas' defensive prowess. I'll be astonished if Thomas doesn't play more minutes than Zoubek, Kelly, and Miles Plumlee.

[airowe]

I agree with this post.

On your other, don't get too carried away with lineups that only have one guard. Jon wll play 30-35 MPG and Nolan 30 MPG plus Dawkins will get his 10-15 MPG.

With respect to starters, I actualy prefer the biggest lineup to give Z three rotations of 3-4 MPG in first half and 2 in second half. I doubt he plays during stall ball, toal 15 MPG, max 20 MPG.

Scheyer/Smith
Smith/Dawkins
Singler/Kelly
Mason/Lance
Zoubek/Miles

Lance as 6th man can sub in at PF and a Plumlee plays center.

when Miles subs in, he can be with Lance or Mason.

I hear ya. At the same time, I can see Kyle playing some minutes at the 2 as well (maybe 5-10) with only one other guard on the floor. In particular, I see us doing this against PUNC if they roll out a Thompson, Davis, Henson, Ginyard, (insert guard) lineup. I see us countering with something like:

Z or MP1
MP2 or MP1
LT
Singler
Nolan or Jon

[OldSchool]

I think this leaves out a lineup we will see with some regularity, Mason Plumlee and Lance Thomas in together.

Our most athletic lineup IMO:

Nolan
Jon
Kyle
Lance
MP2

It is true that K has typically prefered athleticism over size.

Where the opposing team does not have a real big man at the 5, you may be right and K may be tempted to fall back on the most athletic lineup, which is his default position.

However, this year with Z and MP1 we have a couple of true big men to utilize. I hope K tries to get the most out of those two.

[jimsumner]

"Our most athletic lineup IMO:

Nolan
Jon
Kyle
Lance
MP2"

The most athletic lineup might include Dawkins and Czyz. But I think this is the most athletically-gifted plausible lineup. Obviously, when I posit Thomas and Mason playing together, I've got Plumlee guarding the other team's 5. Zoubek more than proved his worth against the Alabi's of the world last year but the ACC isn't exactly awash in quality seven-footers.

But I do expect Duke to give Zoubek every chance to lock down the center position. If Zoubek could become a solid 25 mpg player then Mason P would play more 4 than 5 and would eat into LT's PT.

The best thing about this is the plethora of options Duke has; seven players who can play the 4 or the 5. Remember only a few years ago when Patrick Johnson and under-sized Lee Melchionni were getting major minutes inside? I like this a lot better.

[ACCBBallFan]

Our most athletic lineup IMO:

Nolan
Jon
Kyle
Lance
MP2

It is true that K has typically prefered athleticism over size.

Where the opposing team does not have a real big man at the 5, you may be right and K may be tempted to fall back on the most athletic lineup, which is his default position.

However, this year with Z and MP1 we have a couple of true big men to utilize. I hope K tries to get the most out of those two.
Your pisitions are not mutually exclusive.

Even in that scenario, I doubt Zoubek and Miles often total anywhere near 40 MPG at center. Mason will play some there and some more at PF..

[SilkyJ]

Our most athletic lineup IMO:

Nolan
Jon
Kyle
Lance
MP2

It is true that K has typically prefered athleticism over size.

Where the opposing team does not have a real big man at the 5, you may be right and K may be tempted to fall back on the most athletic lineup, which is his default position.

However, this year with Z and MP1 we have a couple of true big men to utilize. I hope K tries to get the most out of those two.

Agree with Jim above, and would also say that MP1 is pretty darn athletic himself. I think our most athletic lineup that we will or could actually see is

Nolan
Deadeye
Kyle
MP2
MP1

[ACCBBallFan]

Athleticism in and of itself is nto the riight measure, but Olek would be in Duke's toip 5 there and there only.

[OldSchool]

When I say I believe the following line-up would be our most athletic lineup:

Nolan
Jon
Kyle
Lance
MP2

I am referring, as Jim suggests, to plausible lineups.

I would like to see Olek get some significant minutes from time to time this year and make a contribution, but I would be absolutely shocked if he gets anything close to starters' minutes.

As to Andre, given that both Nolan and Jon are ahead of him, I don't think it is plausible to expect him to carry a heavy load this year, as a freshman. If he can average even, say, 8 quality minutes a game his freshman year, I am not going to ask anything more from him this year.

MP1 didn't really shine last year; I'm hoping with increased strength and bulk and more opportunity, we will see him break out this year, but that remains to be seen. But I'm expecting 12-15 minutes per game from him this year, and 20+ minutes per game from Z.

I predict MP2 will be a special player, and will end up averaging 25+ minutes per game his freshman year. If so, Lance will be displaced into becoming the sixth man. But we'll see; maybe the senior and experienced Lance will be able to hold off the freshman challenge.

[airowe]

When I say I believe the following line-up would be our most athletic lineup:

Nolan
Jon
Kyle
Lance
MP2

I am referring, as Jim suggests, to plausible lineups.

I would like to see Olek get some significant minutes from time to time this year and make a contribution, but I would be absolutely shocked if he gets anything close to starters' minutes.

As to Andre, given that both Nolan and Jon are ahead of him, I don't think it is plausible to expect him to carry a heavy load this year, as a freshman. If he can average even, say, 8 quality minutes a game his freshman year, I am not going to ask anything more from him this year.

MP1 didn't really shine last year; I'm hoping with increased strength and bulk and more opportunity, we will see him break out this year, but that remains to be seen. But I'm expecting 12-15 minutes per game from him this year, and 20+ minutes per game from Z.

I predict MP2 will be a special player, and will end up averaging 25+ minutes per game his freshman year. If so, Lance will be displaced into becoming the sixth man. But we'll see; maybe the senior and experienced Lance will be able to hold off the freshman challenge.

As bullish as I am on MP2, he will not displace as many of LT's mins as you think. If anything, he'll take mins from MP1 and Z. If you think of McClure last year, he wasn't called on to be the defensive stopper as much as LT will be this year. We don't have G or Elliot to help contain a quick slasher like we did last year. As much Offense as MP2 will provide, LT is the only guy who can keep slashers in front of him. As long as Lance stays out of foul trouble, his mins won't be up for grabs.

[OldSchool]

As bullish as I am on MP2, he will not displace as many of LT's mins as you think. If anything, he'll take mins from MP1 and Z.

You may be right, which puts you in Jim's camp above who expects to see MP2 and LT on the court together with regularity.

My beef is that (while I hate to quibble with the Hall-of-Famer) K has been very quick with the hook on Z in prior years and on MP1 last year. I would like to see us use the big men and go to them more.

On the defensive side, I think MP2 will prove surprisingly solid even against a quick, slashing opposing 4.

And my complaint with our defense has been that when we have Z or MP1 in there, we see them out on the perimeter in the man-to-man D, hedging and going for steals as if they are 6'4" guards. We need to adjust our D so that the big man collapses more, and other quicker perimeter players compensate.

We have the big men, let's adjust our schemes to properly use them, I say.

[airowe]

You may be right, which puts you in Jim's camp above who expects to see MP2 and LT on the court together with regularity.

My beef is that (while I hate to quibble with the Hall-of-Famer) K has been very quick with the hook on Z in prior years and on MP1 last year. I would like to see us use the big men and go to them more.

On the defensive side, I think MP2 will prove surprisingly solid even against a quick, slashing opposing 4.

And my complaint with our defense has been that when we have Z or MP1 in there, we see them out on the perimeter in the man-to-man D, hedging and going for steals as if they are 6'4" guards. We need to adjust our D so that the big man collapses more, and other quicker perimeter players compensate.

We have the big men, let's adjust our schemes to properly use them, I say.

You said, and I agree that MP2 can stay with a "quick, slashing opponent 4", but who stays with a quick, slashing opponent 3? Lance is really the only guy who can, unless Andre has a big surprise for all of us...

[OldSchool]

Kyle's going to have to do it in the League on a day-in day-out basis, so he better get used to it.

But yes, there may be special situations where defensively we put Lance on a 3 and Kyle on a 4, if Kyle can't stay with that 3.

[mgtr]

No matter who you put where, I think the fellows who log the most minutes day in and day out will be Kyle, Jon, and Lance. That will be our core. with plenty of others filling in around them.
We are fortunate to have a lot of good players to do this fill in work -- they will have a better chance to learn their craft under fire this year than before, and we have a better chance of surviving illnesses (flu) this year than before.
Gee, I sure wish practice started tomorrow!

[mo.st.dukie]

No matter who you put where, I think the fellows who log the most minutes day in and day out will be Kyle, Jon, and Lance. That will be our core.

I agree, except I would add Nolan who will get 30+mpg because 1.) I think he is going to shock people this year and be a very good slasher and a decent PG, 2.) Duke doesn't really have much of a choice but to play both Nolan and Jon big minutes because of their experience and the depth situation.

[speedevil2001]

I haven't seen anyone talk about Lance Thomas. Where does he fit in during his senior year? I would expect him to get some burn at the 4 since his competition would now be MP1 and Ryan Kelly, and I don't see Kelly playing that much this year.

i think lance thomas and brian zoubek are in the same place as greg paulus was his senior year.

coming off the bench. will they have their spots during certain points in a game yes. will they be a major factor? i doubt it.
its time for the young guys to start and dominate. mp1 and mp2.

actually i think the starting lineup will be smith, scheyer, singler, thomas and mp2.

thomas's energy and speed to guard the 4 spot will get him playing time.

but starting both miles and mason at the 5 and 4 will be better for duke's chances to win.

[mgtr]

I agree, except I would add Nolan who will get 30+mpg because 1.) I think he is going to shock people this year and be a very good slasher and a decent PG, 2.) Duke doesn't really have much of a choice but to play both Nolan and Jon big minutes because of their experience and the depth situation.

Well, I agree that we need Nolan to step up this year to help replace G and Eliot. Can he do that? I dunno. Can Nolan plus Andre fill that void? I certainly hope so. So, between those two, in some combo, we need in effect another starter. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. Where is Greg Paulus when you need him? Oh, yeah, he is in Syracuse playing with an odd-shaped ball. Go Greg!

[ACCBBallFan]

You may be right, which puts you in Jim's camp above who expects to see MP2 and LT on the court together with regularity.

My beef is that (while I hate to quibble with the Hall-of-Famer) K has been very quick with the hook on Z in prior years and on MP1 last year. I would like to see us use the big men and go to them more.

On the defensive side, I think MP2 will prove surprisingly solid even against a quick, slashing opposing 4.

And my complaint with our defense has been that when we have Z or MP1 in there, we see them out on the perimeter in the man-to-man D, hedging and going for steals as if they are 6'4" guards. We need to adjust our D so that the big man collapses more, and other quicker perimeter players compensate.

We have the big men, let's adjust our schemes to properly use them, I say.

I agree with your final point about tailoring the defense to accomodate a bigger center rather than trying to get the center to defend like a quicker player. It does not have to be pure zone, just more zone concepts applied to get further away from pure man to man on the continuum between the two extremes.

More so this year where there are just not that many good 3 point shooters and Duke does not have to switch as much.

MoSt.Dukie already made made my point that Nolan belongs in that core group with Jon and Kyle.

I think Lance is more of a 5 man rotation with the Plumlees, Z and Kelly than a core player tough. He plays the most minutes of these 5, perhaps 20-25 MPG and is on the line between rotation and core who all play 30 plus MPG.

His specialty is defense, Kelly's specialty is Offense, Z's is Size and remains to be seen whether Plumlees are specialized or more well rounded bigs.

[DukieInBrasil]

i too think that LT will get plenty of minutes, and mainly for his defense, not just that he plays good D, but that he can defend a pretty broad spectrum.
I suspect that his O will be a shade better this year than last, but don´t expect his minutes to disappear just cuz he is not a big-time scorer.