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FireOgilvie
08-05-2009, 05:58 PM
We've seen a little bit of Mason and Ryan Kelly now, Miles bulked up a lot and has a year of experience, and we all know what Zoubek and Lance bring.

It seems like Scheyer, Nolan, Singler, and two of the choices up above will start. One will be power forward (Lance? Miles? R Kelly?) and one will be center. Who starts at center? There's already been a lot of discussion on this, but I want to know what the consensus is and I like a good poll.

OZZIE4DUKE
08-05-2009, 06:07 PM
I haven't seen any of the summer play, but I'm guessing that Z will start at 5 and Mason will start at the 4, not that we play fixed positions.

Kedsy
08-05-2009, 06:09 PM
I haven't seen any of the summer play, but I'm guessing that Z will start at 5 and Mason will start at the 4, not that we play fixed positions.

I voted for Mason, but I agree that in many games, depending on matchups, he may end up at the 4 with Z at the 5.

FireOgilvie
08-05-2009, 06:16 PM
I haven't seen any of the summer play, but I'm guessing that Z will start at 5 and Mason will start at the 4, not that we play fixed positions.

That's what I'm hoping for, but I suspect that Lance will start at the 4 and we might see Mason at center. I am guessing that Mason will definitely start at either PF or C.

Oh, and I meant to say "Mason" instead of "Miles" when talking about possible 4s in the first post.

DevilHorns
08-05-2009, 06:29 PM
Unless Mason or Miles is absolutely killing it during the off-season, K has to give the nod to Zoubek. Though I do think that Mason or Miles will have a serious shot at replacing Z as the starter as the season wears on.

I know there is a fair range of opinion regarding Z (and trust me I've had my fair share of pulling out my hair moments with ill-timed travels or fouls), but I do think he's going to come out suprsingly strong this year and ready to go. I wish him the best of luck.

Greg_Newton
08-05-2009, 06:35 PM
I optimistically voted for Miles. He has by far the best body and physical gifts for a center on our roster, and if he can play focused and disciplined he would be a great presence to have on our side. That said, he very well may not be ready enough to start next season. I like Z, I just like him better as a few-minutes-at-a-time weapon than our default starting big.

In my mind, Miles, Mason, and Ryan are the three huge x-factors next season. They are all very unique talents and physical specimens, the likes of which we haven't had on our roster in a while, if ever. How much of their respective upsides they realize this season could esaily make the difference between Duke being a top-5 caliber team and a 3-5 seed caliber team, IMO.

-jk
08-05-2009, 06:35 PM
As I don't see an option for either "K doesn't play positions" or "Situational", I'll abstain.

;)

-jk

Reddevil
08-05-2009, 07:24 PM
Between Brian, Miles, and Mason, that's 15 fouls to give. Oh wait - Beaker's gone. Nevermind. I hope Mason just takes it, and doesn't look back for 4 years.

gumbomoop
08-05-2009, 08:00 PM
As I don't see an option for either "K doesn't play positions" or "Situational", I'll abstain.

;)

-jk

I, too, think it's situational, but not because K doesn't play positions. Clearly the only "position" [this "K doesn't play positions" stuff gets dumb sometimes...] Z plays is 5. MP1 can play 4 or 5, as can MP2.

To answer the interesting question, I'm gonna guess, absent injuries, it's Z in game 1, but situational thereafter. Psychologically Z may be as much "team-first" as GP, but that's asking a lot of any senior, particularly one who's had to overcome injuries. I suspect it will be tough - and lead to bad vibes, or at least awkwardness - if Z moves toward end of bench, especially early in season, but I don't think it will happen. Actually, I could imagine Z starting virtually all year, but playing fewer mpg than MP1 at 5.

I think most posters are reasonably optimistic that we'll get some respectable numbers, both O and D, from the "5-except-it's-not-5" this year.

Memphis Devil
08-05-2009, 08:29 PM
I voted for Miles at the 5 with Mason at the 4. I like the twin athletic towers approach. Z, other having a few more years of experience than the Plumlee's, isn't in the same league. Mason is a "balla", Miles is a "playa", and Z is a space eater.

Huh?
08-05-2009, 08:34 PM
Voted for Mason, but meant to vote for Miles, a year in the ACC makes a big difference giving him an edge over Mason.
That being said I'm sure it's Z's to lose.

mgtr
08-05-2009, 09:07 PM
Zoubs is good on offense, it is on defense where he has a problem. Miles didn't show us any more on defense, but maybe a year's experience will change that. Mason -- haven't heard a whole lot about his defense. Of course, under Coach K's scheme, the 5 has to be able to cover a lot of ground and guard anybody on the other team. Tough. Maybe Mason will be the man, but probably not until midyear.
Am I weasel-wording? You bet!

ACCBBallFan
08-05-2009, 11:02 PM
I like Mason/Lance at the 4 and Z/Miles a the 5, with Kyle/Ryan @ 3.

The way Jon and Kylke are talking Mason up, I would think it is those 3 plus Nolan and either Z who got my vote or Miles at 5 or else Mason at 5 and Lance at 4.

I think there are some intangibles to having the Plumlees on floor at same time whether that be as starters or as game progresses.

As seniors, Lance and Z know their roles whether they start or not.

Need one of the Plumlees to start to jump center, though Z would be a big target to catch the tip from said Plumlee and pass to a breaking guard.

BlueintheFace
08-05-2009, 11:26 PM
I will always take the experienced upperclassman over the freshman when it comes to ACC big men and projecting starters. I have to see Mason or Miles prove themselves first to change my opinion or hear very specific quotes from the coaching staff.

You always have to rely on history when you have no other knowledge about freshman bigs. I'll take Zoubek for now.

jv001
08-06-2009, 08:37 AM
I haven't seen any of the summer play, but I'm guessing that Z will start at 5 and Mason will start at the 4, not that we play fixed positions.

Yes Coach K does not play fixed positions so I go with Ozzie on this one. Nolan, Jon, Kyle, Zoubs and Mason. But plenty of mins for LT, Miles, Dawkins and Ryan. Go Duke!

Bsim412
08-06-2009, 09:16 AM
Mason should start at center but since this will be Zoubek's last year he will probably be the starting center.

OZZIE4DUKE
08-06-2009, 09:28 AM
Mason should start at center but since this will be Zoubek's last year he will probably be the starting center.
That worked out real well for Greg Paulus last year, didn't it? Zoub's will start because he will have earned the starting job, not because he's a senior. And if Lance starts, same thing, and great for Duke if he does!

allenmurray
08-06-2009, 09:38 AM
Kelly will have to gain a lot of strength and weight to play "center" (again, the caveat of "if we played positions"). Until his body has had a chance to mature and Nate has gotten him into the weight room he'll need to play further away from the basket.

Cell-R
08-06-2009, 11:24 AM
I saw Zoubs starts Center, but will frequently rotate with Miles.

Devilsfan
08-06-2009, 01:04 PM
Zoubek may start in Dec., but when crunch time hits my bet is on someone else.

FireOgilvie
08-06-2009, 02:23 PM
Kelly will have to gain a lot of strength and weight to play "center" (again, the caveat of "if we played positions"). Until his body has had a chance to mature and Nate has gotten him into the weight room he'll need to play further away from the basket.

Where did the whole "we don't play positions" thing come from? I know that Coach K said, "We need a PG and a center." It's not like Duke has 5 interchangeable players on the court with identical responsibilities that are free to rotate wherever they want. That's what having "no positions" means. Every team rotates some players on a situational basis. But, it's not like Zoubek is going to be dribbling the ball up the court to set up the offense. Zoubek is definitely a "center."

As far as this poll goes, I'm surprised at how close it is between Mason and Zoubek. I also thought that Miles would get a higher percentage of votes. My guess is that Mason starts, whether or not he plays the "big man that stands under the basket and guards the other team's biggest guy" or "big man that plays more under the basket than guards, but not quite as much as the other big man" position at Duke.

CDu
08-06-2009, 03:23 PM
Where did the whole "we don't play positions" thing come from? I know that Coach K said, "We need a PG and a center." It's not like Duke has 5 interchangeable players on the court with identical responsibilities that are free to rotate wherever they want. That's what having "no positions" means. Every team rotates some players on a situational basis. But, it's not like Zoubek is going to be dribbling the ball up the court to set up the offense. Zoubek is definitely a "center."

As far as this poll goes, I'm surprised at how close it is between Mason and Zoubek. I also thought that Miles would get a higher percentage of votes. My guess is that Mason starts, whether or not he plays the "big man that stands under the basket and guards the other team's biggest guy" or "big man that plays more under the basket than guards, but not quite as much as the other big man" position at Duke.

It's a longstanding point of discussion/debate. Coach K often likes to make the statement that "Duke doesn't have positions - we have players." This is usually only done in response to questions directed at potential concerns at a position. However, Coach K has also often discussed the need for a PG or a "big man", and I've seen interviews with Chris Collins in which he discusses specific positions as well. This of course runs counter to the "Duke doesn't have positions" argument. But the "Duke doesn't play positions" motto has been taken on by many on this board.

Personally, I think it's more of a mindset that Coach K likes to instill in his players that they not be confined by a defined position. He wants, as much as possible, to have his players feel comfortable/confident in any situation - even if it is not their natural position. And to some degree, the approach been seen in practice. For example, Nelson and Henderson have defended anywhere from the post to the PG. And for the better part of the last two years, our offense hasn't used a true PG; instead, we've had various players bring the ball up and initiate the offense.

That being said, there are certainly players who are confined to specific positions. Aside from very unfortunate switches, Zoubek will never play the wing. Paulus and Wojo didn't play center. Wherever possible, Coach K will avoid playing guys in spots in which they won't succeed, so by default there are positions. And when Coach K has had a true PG or true post guy, he's used him as such.

I also think it's partly Coach K's coachspeak way of discarding questions that don't promote the positive aspects of the team. It seems that when the team has perceived deficiencies at a particular position the "Duke doesn't have positions" motto gets waved more loudly.

Scoring Point
08-06-2009, 04:17 PM
Excellent points by CDu and FireOgilvie. I would simply add that our players also have to defend against teams that use traditional position definitions, so for at least roughly half of each game, they are arguably playing set positions.

SushiChef
08-06-2009, 04:40 PM
One thing is for certain: Zoubek won't be jumping for the tip...

Bob Green
08-06-2009, 04:41 PM
Excellent points by CDu and FireOgilvie. I would simply add that our players also have to defend against teams that use traditional position definitions, so for at least roughly half of each game, they are arguably playing set positions.

Not exactly because we switch off every screen. That is a basic tenet of Coach K defense.

CLT Devil
08-06-2009, 05:13 PM
Here's to hoping that Z is healthy and somehow has picked up some lower body strength (jumping) as well as some upper body strength (holding onto the ball) - that being said, I sure hope Mason Plumlee is the eventual starter. I know there is optimism this time of year, but I just don't see Z starting on any national, or even conference powerhouse team. Mason is a Bball player, like a previous poster stated, while Z is a big body, not much else. IMHO

COYS
08-06-2009, 05:17 PM
I went with Zoubek since I still think Zoubek's best is yet to come. I also anticipate that we may see Mason start alongside Zoubek in the post with the three S's (Scheyer, Singler, and Smith) and I like the idea of Thomas and Miles as energy guys off the bench. This is, of course, all highly scientific.

ACCBBallFan
08-06-2009, 05:23 PM
Yes Coach K does not play fixed positions so I go with Ozzie on this one. Nolan, Jon, Kyle, Zoubs and Mason. But plenty of mins for LT, Miles, Dawkins and Ryan. Go Duke!

I voted for Zoubek but my second place vote would have gone to Miles.

I suspect those that voted for Mason might also have had Miles as their runner up center.

I am leaning that way too with Lance being 6th man for defense.

Just have not heard enough about Zoubek summer imporivement, if any, other than no injuries to report thankfully.

So I agree on Jon-Nolan-Kyle -Mason and then either (Z/Mles) with gut feel that playing siblings together has intangible benefits.

The seniors Lance and Z already know their roles, whether they start or not.

I know others argue equally passionately for Jon-Nolan-Kyle-Lance-Mason in a defense first mode.

BlueintheFace
08-06-2009, 06:46 PM
I would be mildly shocked if Lance Thomas did not start. Let's not forget who coaches this team and his priorities.

Kedsy
08-06-2009, 07:18 PM
I would be mildly shocked if Lance Thomas did not start. Let's not forget who coaches this team and his priorities.

I think people get caught up too much in who starts. Jon, Kyle, and Nolan will all play huge minutes. I think Mason and Lance will also play "starters minutes" (>20). Miles and Brian will get between 10 and 20, depending on matchups. Andre (assuming he comes) will be a wild card, but also probably 10 to 20. And I frankly have no idea where Ryan will fit in. Unless Olek shows huge improvement from last year he'll only get mop up minutes.

That's just my opinion, of course. My point is assuming the players that ought to get minutes get their minutes, who cares who's out there for the opening tip?

SilkyJ
08-06-2009, 07:52 PM
I would be mildly shocked if Lance Thomas did not start. Let's not forget who coaches this team and his priorities.

I agree with that. It also just makes sense personnel wise as we will need versatility and quickness out of "4" position and only Lance provides that (besides Kyle). Lance can guard a small 3 and a big 4 (in college) and we will probably need whoever plays the "4" to do just that. Starting Z and Mason or Miles and Mason would make us intimidating up front and on the boards, but I don't know if Mason could keep up with some of the 4s who like to face up...maybe though, we'll see.

airowe
08-06-2009, 09:11 PM
I agree with that. It also just makes sense personnel wise as we will need versatility and quickness out of "4" position and only Lance provides that (besides Kyle). Lance can guard a small 3 and a big 4 (in college) and we will probably need whoever plays the "4" to do just that. Starting Z and Mason or Miles and Mason would make us intimidating up front and on the boards, but I don't know if Mason could keep up with some of the 4s who like to face up...maybe though, we'll see.

Based on his frame and size, and what I saw of him at the Pro-Am (I know it doesn't mean much compared to real games but its all I have to go on) I'm gonna say Mason can keep up with both a small 3 and a big 4 just as well as LT. I'm bullish on this team's versatility and am excited about a lineup of the Schyer, Smith, Singler, 1 or 2 Plumlees and/or LT and/or Kelly.

Can you say height advantage? If LT, Singler, and a Plumlee can guard quicker than their position above average I like our chances defensively. Especially because we switch so much on screens.

-jk
08-06-2009, 11:04 PM
The joke went: Who's the only person who can hold Michael Jordan to 20 points a game?

I think the "we don't play positions" mantra came about, in part, as a counterpoint to Dean Smith's system.

Deano mostly painted-by-numbers: if you were a "3", you had clearly defined roles on both ends of the court in whatever set he called; it was a system. A lot of very successful coaches do this, but it's not the only way.

K applies his military training, maximize his team's strengths and cover its weaknesses. Offensive assignments don't have to correlate with defensive assignments; it's about abilities and skills and being flexible.

K creates mismatches wherever possible: Ferry floating outside for a jumper or Brickey defending inside. Grant playing all five positions in a single game. Going small in '01 and running a big UNC right out of the gym. Nothing's set in stone; it's all about what the players bring on any given night against any given team. We don't play positions. We attack and adapt.

Granted, K does want a player on offense who can take control and manage the floor, often a traditional pass-first point guard, but often not. To a lesser extent, K likes to have a solid inside defender, and overplays the wings to deny when he doesn't. Like most, K's best teams are balanced: good inside and outside ball movement with good inside and outside scoring. "Positions" aren't required for that balance.

And not all players can create mismatches. Zoubek doesn't have as much flexibility, so his strengths tend to make him look like a traditional "center". In addition to size, Z is a solid passer and has a decent mid-range shot, so K puts him at the the key now and then to open things up. If Z had a wicked three point shot, I'm sure K would have him float out and pop. (That was Horvath. Well, if pick-up games were to be believed, anyway.)

K wants to tip the overall balance to favor our five players' contributions vs. their five players', on both ends of the court, by whatever (honest) means necessary. He wants to win.

In other words: K wouldn't hold Michael Jordan to 20 points a game.

-jk

FireOgilvie
08-06-2009, 11:33 PM
The joke went: Who's the only person who can hold Michael Jordan to 20 points a game?

I think the "we don't play positions" mantra came about, in part, as a counterpoint to Dean Smith's system.

Deano mostly painted-by-numbers: if you were a "3", you had clearly defined roles on both ends of the court in whatever set he called; it was a system. A lot of very successful coaches do this, but it's not the only way.

K applies his military training, maximize his team's strengths and cover its weaknesses. Offensive assignments don't have to correlate with defensive assignments; it's about abilities and skills and being flexible.

K creates mismatches wherever possible: Ferry floating outside for a jumper or Brickey defending inside. Grant playing all five positions in a single game. Going small in '01 and running a big UNC right out of the gym. Nothing's set in stone; it's all about what the players bring on any given night against any given team. We don't play positions. We attack and adapt.

Granted, K does want a player on offense who can take control and manage the floor, often a traditional pass-first point guard, but often not. To a lesser extent, K likes to have a solid inside defender, and overplays the wings to deny when he doesn't. Like most, K's best teams are balanced: good inside and outside ball movement with good inside and outside scoring. "Positions" aren't required for that balance.

And not all players can create mismatches. Zoubek doesn't have as much flexibility, so his strengths tend to make him look like a traditional "center". In addition to size, Z is a solid passer and has a decent mid-range shot, so K puts him at the the key now and then to open things up. If Z had a wicked three point shot, I'm sure K would have him float out and pop. (That was Horvath. Well, if pick-up games were to be believed, anyway.)

K wants to tip the overall balance to favor our five players' contributions vs. their five players', on both ends of the court, by whatever (honest) means necessary. He wants to win.

In other words: K wouldn't hold Michael Jordan to 20 points a game.

-jk


Interesting. I understand what you are saying, but I think you're kind of overstating what has actually been happening, especially in the last 6 or 7 years. It seems to me that lately, I don't know as much about the teams from the 90's, Duke players seem to be playing more traditional positions. The only players that I can think of that really played a non-traditional role would be maybe Singler (but I think of him as a versatile power forward), and McRoberts (who was very skilled at a lot of things such as passing, but was also basically just a power forward). Maybe I'm not seeing it and it would be interesting to see more examples. It was an announced change when Scheyer was moved from SG to PG, and his responsibilities changed to that of a typical PG (although he isn't very good at driving to the basket). Also, for all of the talk about innovation when it comes to personnel, I find it strange that Coach refuses to change his defensive strategies, even when it clearly doesn't work with the personnel (see Greg Paulus the last 4 years, any game versus Ty Lawson and UNC, and keeping players such as Elliot Williams, Taylor King, Brian Zoubek, and Miles Plumlee on the bench because they haven't mastered man-to-man but clearly can make significant contributions when given the chance).

ACCBBallFan
08-07-2009, 12:37 AM
Based on his frame and size, and what I saw of him at the Pro-Am (I know it doesn't mean much compared to real games but its all I have to go on) I'm gonna say Mason can keep up with both a small 3 and a big 4 just as well as LT. I'm bullish on this team's versatility and am excited about a lineup of the Schyer, Smith, Singler, 1 or 2 Plumlees and/or LT and/or Kelly.

Can you say height advantage? If LT, Singler, and a Plumlee can guard quicker than their position above average I like our chances defensively. Especially because we switch so much on screens.
I think it really depends on who the oppsition has at WF/PF.

If it is a very doiminant scorer, then Lance gets the nod to neutralize that guy and Duke takes its chances 4 vs. 4 with Scheyer-Smith-Singler-a Plumlee/Z. This also prevents Singler from getting into foul trouble guarding that WF, and he instead guards the lesser scoring forward.

Lance is a lot like McClure. Playing him is playing not to gegt beaten by the guy he is guarding, as opposed to playing to win.

When the foe does not have a dominant forward scorer, then Lance may sub in to help guard their scoring guard. In that case, the forward Lance would have guarded is not going to score much vs. Mason/Kelly either and Duke can play more offense from its 4 spot.

BlueintheFace
08-07-2009, 07:36 AM
Lance is a lot like McClure. Playing him is playing not to gegt beaten by the guy he is guarding, as opposed to playing to win.


... and yet K had a tendency to play McClure in close games down the stretch.

airowe
08-07-2009, 07:54 AM
... and yet K had a tendency to play McClure in close games down the stretch.

...But always as a defensive stopper and intelligent player, never counted on to shoot the game-winning shot.

I think LT will be counted on more offensively than McClure ever was. By the way, no offense to Lance, but McClure was a way better defensive stopper than Lance has shown.

ACCBBallFan
08-07-2009, 08:12 AM
... and yet K had a tendency to play McClure in close games down the stretch.


...But always as a defensive stopper and intelligent player, never counted on to shoot the game-winning shot.

I think LT will be counted on more offensively than McClure ever was. By the way, no offense to Lance, but McClure was a way better defensive stopper than Lance has shown.

I don't disagree with either of you, but would point out when K was playing Dave and Lance as undersized post men in those situations, he did not have as many weapons in his arsenal.

Now he also will have the Plumlees and Kelly, just Zoubek who IMO is vastly under rated by many who judge on style points rather than effectiveness, albeit not elegant.

However during stall ball, Z is less than ideal except for his FT shooting, rebounding, and being such a tall target, just not a ball handler nor leaper nor a mobile defender.

Looking forward to more NCCU reports form Mark watson, airowe et al, last night where Z apparently scored 14 but played crappy defense. Not surprising in this venue that does not play to his strengths.

Miles apparently was a beast in his two games, particularly vs. the LA Laker Powell, and Olek played 3 times, with varying degrees of success in each.

airowe
08-07-2009, 08:57 AM
I don't disagree with either of you, but would point out when K was playing Dave and Lance as undersized post men in those situations, he did not have as many weapons in his arsenal.

Now he also will have the Plumlees and Kelly, just Zoubek who IMO is vastly under rated by many who judge on style points rather than effectiveness, albeit not elegant.

However during stall ball, Z is less than ideal except for his FT shooting, rebounding, and being such a tall target, just not a ball handler nor leaper nor a mobile defender.

Looking forward to more NCCU reports form Mark watson, airowe et al, last night where Z apparently scored 14 but played crappy defense. Not surprising in this venue that does not play to his strengths.

Miles apparently was a beast in his two games, particularly vs. the LA Laker Powell, and Olek played 3 times, with varying degrees of success in each.

I didn't go last night, am going to try to see the playoffs this weekend. Good to see Olek has recovered well.

As far as Z goes, he has shown flashes of talent throughout his career and he may be underrated efficient-wise. And, I was impressed with his defense last year against Alabi and the sirloin steak from Texas in the tourney. But, he just has too many liabilities, starting with turnovers and being foul-prone to make me believe he will start ahead of or play more minutes than MP1 at the 5 this year. That being said, I think our offensive should lean more towards an outside-in game, which should put Z in better rebounding position.

While Miles didn't show a whole lot last year consistently, what I saw made me more bullish on him than Z for this year. MP1s game, IMHO is more suited to banging down low than his brother or LT, which is why I think he'll get the most minutes at the 5.

Mason's handle and ability to take guys off the dribble I think will have him away from the basket a good bit while he'll still be able to bang down low because of his frame.

For what my predictions are worth, I see Z and Lance starting the year at the. 5 and 4, respectively, but the MPs playing the majority of the minutes and starting by the end of the year.

jipops
08-07-2009, 10:37 AM
I highly doubt the front court to feature the same set of starters the entire year. I'd expect an evolving set of starters throughout the season. The bigger question is, who is going to be starting in Jan, Feb & March? Seems to be a pretty good set of players to choose from.

houstondukie
08-07-2009, 10:53 AM
IMO, Lance Thomas is a lock to start the 4.

- Starter almost his entire career
- Finally playing his natural 4 position
- Best defensive big man who can gaurd on the perimeter *
- Captain? (have the captains been announced yet? if not, he should be one)
- Experience

*(Kyle will play the 3 on offense, but on defense don't be surprised to see Lance gaurding the other team's 3)

The center position most likely will be a fluid one w/Zoubek (maybe Miles) to start the season, but Mason come tourney time.

UrinalCake
08-07-2009, 11:13 AM
Keep in mind that our first several games will be against pretty weak competition. It's not uncommon for K to give some starts to freshmen during the early-season tuneups, or to experiment with unconventional lineups. I wouldn't be surprised to see Mason start early, but expect Z to be the "regular" starter once ACC play begins.

slower
08-07-2009, 11:45 AM
IMO, Lance Thomas is a lock to start the 4.

- Captain? (have the captains been announced yet? if not, he should be one)


Maybe if they have (at least) tri-captains, because there is NO way Lance should be a captain ahead of Kyle and Jon (and, some would argue, Nolan).

CDu
08-07-2009, 11:48 AM
Maybe if they have (at least) tri-captains, because there is NO way Lance should be a captain ahead of Kyle and Jon (and, some would argue, Nolan).

I'd see Thomas ahead of Smith in the hunt for a captain (purely from an outside perspective), given that Thomas is a senior and has started for the better part of the last three years. Smith has less than a half-season's worth of starts to his credit. I agree about Scheyer and Singler though. The senior star (Scheyer) and best player (Singler) would seem like logical picks.

Of course, you just never know.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
08-07-2009, 12:30 PM
...But always as a defensive stopper and intelligent player, never counted on to shoot the game-winning shot.

I think LT will be counted on more offensively than McClure ever was. By the way, no offense to Lance, but McClure was a way better defensive stopper than Lance has shown.

Lots of great discussion in this thread. The comment above did give me a chuckle since Dave had one of the most high-profile game winners (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/games/2007-01-25-duke-clemson_x.htm) in the last few seasons. I do take your point about Dave and agree that Lance is not (yet) the defender that Dave was but has the potential to be a much greater offensive threat.

I also agree that there will not be a set group of starters. I'd guess we'll see a lot of diversity early on in low-pressure games. I'm also hopeful that we will have enough different looks that we will be able to force given opponents into uncomfortable mismatches well into March. I'd also love to be able to switch guys in and out to ride the "hot hand" on a given night since we only have one real "star" on the team.

I think everyone agrees that Kyle, Jon, and Nolan will have as many minutes as they can handle. My own sense is that none of the big guys will distinguish himself enough to join that core group in terms of minutes for a long stretch of games. Just like PG was an open question all last season since each player brought something different, I expect C to be an open position all season with each candidate starting/playing major minutes for a stretch until another takes his place. I do think we'll see a much higher level of competition this year (i.e. a lot of good candidates beating each other out by taking their game to new heights). No matter what, having a lot of fouls to give should let everyone play with as much aggression as they need, which is definitely a positive. Can't wait to see how it plays out. :)

airowe
08-07-2009, 01:13 PM
Lots of great discussion in this thread. The comment above did give me a chuckle since Dave had one of the most high-profile game winners (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/games/2007-01-25-duke-clemson_x.htm) in the last few seasons.


Completely forgot about that. Here's a treat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZq1-FriP0s&feature=PlayList&p=31C4DFBC19778483&index=29

:):)

DevilCastDownfromDurham
08-07-2009, 01:27 PM
A thing of beauty is a joy forever. :)

Great heads-up play by Jon and maybe the highlight of Dave's career. I'll be smiling for the next hour.

houstondukie
08-07-2009, 01:36 PM
Maybe if they have (at least) tri-captains, because there is NO way Lance should be a captain ahead of Kyle and Jon (and, some would argue, Nolan).

WOW, i'm shocked you don't think LT should be a captain next yr. How many games last year did you see LT in the huddle screaming (in a good way) at his teammates. His energy and leadership are his two best qualities.

I remember us down to Wake Forest by double-digits, and then the camera shows LT in huddle, getting in everyone's face, pumping them up. Duke lost that game at the buzzer, but we made a trememdous comback.

LT is not the most talented guy on the team but that has never been the requirement for captain. Nolan Smith over LT? Are you serious? What leadership has Nolan shown thus far that as a junior he is more derserving of a senior LT?

I can't be the only one who feels this way?

slower
08-07-2009, 02:32 PM
WOW, i'm shocked you don't think LT should be a captain next yr. How many games last year did you see LT in the huddle screaming (in a good way) at his teammates. His energy and leadership are his two best qualities.

I remember us down to Wake Forest by double-digits, and then the camera shows LT in huddle, getting in everyone's face, pumping them up. Duke lost that game at the buzzer, but we made a trememdous comback.

LT is not the most talented guy on the team but that has never been the requirement for captain. Nolan Smith over LT? Are you serious? What leadership has Nolan shown thus far that as a junior he is more derserving of a senior LT?

I can't be the only one who feels this way?

Reread my post again - carefully.

I never said that Lance should NOT be a captain. I said that both Jon and Kyle are far and away better choices as captains.

Jon, obviously, was a captain last year, as well as being the starting PG (usually the de facto "coach on the floor" and often the team leader).

Kyle, to me, just knows more about how to play the game correctly than anybody else on the team. Plus, he has a confident swagger that teams need. Heck, I would have liked to see Kyle as a captain LAST year (I can't count the number of times that he had to shove Paulus into the correct defensive position).

So Lance screamed in the huddle - big deal. Does he have the ability to lead the team on the floor and tell them what to do? If so, great. But I seem to recall Zoubek yelling a lot during games. And I don't think anybody really gave a crap what he was yelling about.

As far as Nolan goes, everybody has an opinion. Perhaps if he hadn't been injured, he might have assumed more of a leadership role. We'll see this year. One thing that is apparent about Nolan (if you've ever watched the Blue Planet videos or seen video of him interacting with his peers) is that people like him and are drawn to him.

Now, I like Lance, but ask me to pick a team and I'll take Nolan every time.

None of this is a knock on Lance (sorry if it sounded that way), just my opinion.

Azdukefan
08-07-2009, 02:42 PM
I think this year is more clear than any year in recent history. While Kyle is the most talented, John is the go to guy. He bleeds Duke blue and if I were picking a secondary I would actually go to Lance. What he lacks in offensive skills, he makes up in HEART! Just my take!

Greg_Newton
08-07-2009, 02:44 PM
Agreed... should be Jon's team to run, Lance's team to motivate, and Kyle's team to carry.

JimBD
08-07-2009, 03:07 PM
I expect Mason to get major minutes. Based strictly on comments I've read on various sites, and paraphrasing, Jon has said Mason is as good as anybody he's ever played with, and the staff considers Mason a possible lottery pick. I know Mason is just a freshman and I should temper my expectations, but I'm excited.

SilkyJ
08-07-2009, 03:09 PM
Agreed... should be Jon's team to run, Lance's team to motivate, and Kyle's team to carry.

Perfectly said. I agree. We'll see if Coach K goes back to his Single Captain thing like in Demarcus' senior year.

InSpades
08-07-2009, 03:14 PM
WOW, i'm shocked you don't think LT should be a captain next yr. How many games last year did you see LT in the huddle screaming (in a good way) at his teammates. His energy and leadership are his two best qualities.

I remember us down to Wake Forest by double-digits, and then the camera shows LT in huddle, getting in everyone's face, pumping them up. Duke lost that game at the buzzer, but we made a trememdous comback.

LT is not the most talented guy on the team but that has never been the requirement for captain. Nolan Smith over LT? Are you serious? What leadership has Nolan shown thus far that as a junior he is more derserving of a senior LT?

I can't be the only one who feels this way?

I think most people who watched Duke last year saw Lance playing a big leadership role for the team. I'd be pretty surprised if he wasn't a captain next year (and a starter). I could definitely see Jon and Lance as co-captains for next year (couldn't see Nolan being a captain though).

slower
08-07-2009, 03:28 PM
Perfectly said. I agree. We'll see if Coach K goes back to his Single Captain thing like in Demarcus' senior year.

I have no quarrel with whatever happens. We all just have our own opinions.

Jon as single captain would be fine. Sounds like the implication is that Kyle should/would like to focus more on just playing rather than motivating everybody else. If that's true, so be it.

Maybe I'm wrong and Nolan doesn't have leadership qualities. Could be - I just happen to think he might have what it takes.

And maybe Lance should be one of the captains. I'm all for whatever's best for the team.

houstondukie
08-07-2009, 03:30 PM
Reread my post again - carefully.

I never said that Lance should NOT be a captain. I said that both Jon and Kyle are far and away better choices as captains.

Jon, obviously, was a captain last year, as well as being the starting PG (usually the de facto "coach on the floor" and often the team leader).

Kyle, to me, just knows more about how to play the game correctly than anybody else on the team. Plus, he has a confident swagger that teams need. Heck, I would have liked to see Kyle as a captain LAST year (I can't count the number of times that he had to shove Paulus into the correct defensive position).

So Lance screamed in the huddle - big deal. Does he have the ability to lead the team on the floor and tell them what to do? If so, great. But I seem to recall Zoubek yelling a lot during games. And I don't think anybody really gave a crap what he was yelling about.

As far as Nolan goes, everybody has an opinion. Perhaps if he hadn't been injured, he might have assumed more of a leadership role. We'll see this year. One thing that is apparent about Nolan (if you've ever watched the Blue Planet videos or seen video of him interacting with his peers) is that people like him and are drawn to him.

Now, I like Lance, but ask me to pick a team and I'll take Nolan every time.

None of this is a knock on Lance (sorry if it sounded that way), just my opinion.

Perhaps I misunderstood your earlier post, but what is the point of saying you'll take Nolan over Lance when picking a team? Overall talent has little to do with being a captain.

And there is a big difference between Lance's leadership and Zoubek's. I was just using Lance's screaming in the huddle at the Wake game as ONE example. If you are going to praise Kyle's defense, Lance is a better defender than Kyle.

Also, I know Nolan is a "cool" guy and is best friends w/ Beasley, but being a captain at Duke is more than just a popularity contest.

slower
08-07-2009, 03:44 PM
Perhaps I misunderstood your earlier post, but what is the point of saying you'll take Nolan over Lance when picking a team? Overall talent has little to do with being a captain.

And there is a big difference between Lance's leadership and Zoubek's. I was just using Lance's screaming in the huddle at the Wake game as ONE example. If you are going to praise Kyle's defense, Lance is a better defender than Kyle.

Also, I know Nolan is a "cool" guy and is best friends w/ Beasley, but being a captain at Duke is more than just a popularity contest.

Okay, so being a captain has little to do with talent or popularity. Gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up.

You are perfectly entitled to your OPINION. As I said, I have no problem with whatever happens.

ACCBBallFan
08-07-2009, 07:09 PM
Captains are usually seniors, and often guards, though early entry has changed the former somewhat.

I see no reason why Jon and Lance shold not be the captains with or without Singler.

Could name Zoubs a captain too just to let some small captain on other team see up close whose 7'1" 270 pound screen he will be bumping off of.

1Devil
08-08-2009, 10:06 AM
Lance should probably be a captain. He's paid his dues and has a good attitude.

For those comparing Lance to McClure, please...there is no comparison. McClure was limited physically but the guy really understood how to play defense and get rebounds. He gave nothing but positives when he was out there, particularly on defense.

Lance, despite superior physical gifts (as compared to McClure) does not bring such positives. People are always talking about his defense like he's Battier or something. He is mobile, but not all that smart on defense. He just doesn't have good instincts for the game.

That said, I'm sure K will get some production from Lance this year. For the first time, he'll have the luxury of not being forced to use Lance in ways that are inappropriate for his skills.

slower
08-08-2009, 10:35 AM
Agreed... should be Jon's team to run, Lance's team to motivate, and Kyle's team to carry.

this does sound like the way to go. Let Kyle do the valuable work of trying to win the game and relieve him of the responsibility of being captain.

But I'm just wondering something. Was Kyle captain of his high school football and basketball teams? I believe that he was an All-state quarterback, wasn't he? Sounds like he MAY be qualified for the job.

And if I'm a Duke player out there on the floor and there are two guys telling me what to do and one of those guys is Kyle Singler, I know who I'm going to listen to.

Again, just my personal opinion.

ACCBBallFan
08-08-2009, 10:37 AM
Lance should probably be a captain. He's paid his dues and has a good attitude.

For those comparing Lance to McClure, please...there is no comparison. McClure was limited physically but the guy really understood how to play defense and get rebounds. He gave nothing but positives when he was out there, particularly on defense.

Lance, despite superior physical gifts (as compared to McClure) does not bring such positives. People are always talking about his defense like he's Battier or something. He is mobile, but not all that smart on defense. He just doesn't have good instincts for the game.

That said, I'm sure K will get some production from Lance this year. For the first time, he'll have the luxury of not being forced to use Lance in ways that are inappropriate for his skills.
Lance is not as smart a defender as Dave, but appears to be Duke's best option to play that role.

He could develop into an efffective shadow the other team;s best offensive player and turn it into a 4 vs. 4 among the rest. Gotta like Duke's chances most of the time with Jon-Nolan-Kyle-Mason.

Likewise it appears he is not going to offer much is way of Offense, neither scoring nor assists, and being on the floor allows defenders to shade elsewhere and dare him to beat you with a jump shot.

So I think it depends on the foe whether Lance or Mason or Ryan is the PF, which ripples through to whether Miles/Z or Mason is the center.

But given a strong SF to defend, rather Lance rack up the fouls than Kyle.

Bob Green
08-08-2009, 06:08 PM
Lance is not as smart a defender as Dave, but appears to be Duke's best option to play that role....

....But given a strong SF to defend, rather Lance rack up the fouls than Kyle.

And Lance is adept at racking up fouls, which will be a significant factor in how many minutes he stays on the court. To date, Lance has committed 276 fouls in 1745 minutes of action. That equates to a foul every 6.32 minutes or 6.33 fouls per 40 minutes of action.

Comparatively, Dave McClure committed 157 fouls in 1736 minutes of action, which equates to a foul every 11.05 minutes or 3.62 fouls per 40 minutes of action.

Foul trouble has been Lance's nemesis but he has been improving. As a junior he averaged one foul per 7.25 minutes of action. He will need additional improvement as a senior if he is to fill the defensive specialist role.

ACCBBallFan
08-08-2009, 06:16 PM
And Lance is adept at racking up fouls, which will be a significant factor in how many minutes he stays on the court. To date, Lance has committed 276 fouls in 1745 minutes of action. That equates to a foul every 6.32 minutes or 6.33 fouls per 40 minutes of action.

Comparatively, Dave McClure committed 157 fouls in 1736 minutes of action, which equates to a foul every 11.05 minutes or 3.62 fouls per 40 minutes of action.

Foul trouble has been Lance's nemesis but he has been improving. As a junior he averaged one foul per 7.25 minutes of action. He will need additional improvement as a senior if he is to fill the defensive specialist role.
True, but Lance was not gooing to play 30 MPG anyway. So other than putting enemy in the bonus, a foul every 6 minutes guarding a supposedly very good offensive forward is okay, and better than Kyle getting whistled.

Lance is probably still Duke's best defensive big other than Kyle, given that Z is not mobile and Miles looked lost last year. I do expect Miles and Olek will get over some of that this year, as marty did year toi year.

Bob Green
08-08-2009, 06:23 PM
True, but Lance was not going to play 30 MPG anyway.

I don't disagree with you I'm just pointing out that Lance has struggled with fouls. This could be a factor in end of game scenarios.

mgtr
08-08-2009, 06:32 PM
Amazing - 126 votes and it is a tie between Zoubs and M2. I can see that, but I would think Zoubs would start the season, as other have suggested, and M2 bmight finish it. Or not.

ACCBBallFan
08-08-2009, 09:52 PM
I don't disagree with you I'm just pointing out that Lance has struggled with fouls. This could be a factor in end of game scenarios.
Agreed and he has also struggled with FT's.

Now that Duke has some bigs who can handle the ball, might see them instead if they can hit FTs and defend decently.

Though probbaly not as well as Lance, hte may offset that with more offense.

Fouls could be a concern for Nolan too as he will probably take the tougher guard to defend, Jon the second toughest and Kyle the easiest.

Blueequalslife23
08-09-2009, 04:35 AM
I honestly have to say..How do we expect to beat teams like the Tar Holes with a center like Brian Zoubek starting. Trust me in no way am i underminding him, Because i cheer for him just as loud as the crazies do. But he honestly has been a dissapointment from the time he steps those 18 size shoes on campus. When we got his commitment we weren't looking for a bench player. We were looking for a 7'1 force.

ACCBBallFan
08-09-2009, 07:23 AM
I honestly have to say..How do we expect to beat teams like the Tar Holes with a center like Brian Zoubek starting. Trust me in no way am i underminding him, Because i cheer for him just as loud as the crazies do. But he honestly has been a dissapointment from the time he steps those 18 size shoes on campus. When we got his commitment we weren't looking for a bench player. We were looking for a 7'1 force.Maybe because two of their centers are jumping jacks that play above the rim within 5 feet of the rim. One weights 215 and the other 200 on a generous scale, probably more like 185.

If Zoubs @ 270 and Miles @ 240 can muscle them out of their comfort zone, they may be much less effective. Even Mason @ 230 has some weight on them.

Someone more mobile would have to guard Zeller who is more of a mid-range threat or Deon who has a nice turnaround J.

I would not expect much offense out of Zoubek versus those kind of shot blockers, but he can still screen to get his teammates open for clean looks.

The goal is not to beat teams from the post slot, just to not give up so much there that beating them with Singler and Scheyer is not out of the question.

Z will holds his own for his 15 MPG and it is up to the Plumlees to do the same for the other 25 MPG.

speedevil2001
08-09-2009, 02:19 PM
Mason should start at center but since this will be Zoubek's last year he will probably be the starting center.

just because it's zoubeks last year doesnt mean he will or deserves to be the starter...remember paulus last year?

speedevil2001
08-09-2009, 02:20 PM
I voted for Miles at the 5 with Mason at the 4. I like the twin athletic towers approach. Z, other having a few more years of experience than the Plumlee's, isn't in the same league. Mason is a "balla", Miles is a "playa", and Z is a space eater.

this is the best senirio so far that i seen...

miles at the 5 and mason at the 4, with singler, scheyer, and smith..thats our starting 5..quote it.

speedevil2001
08-09-2009, 02:25 PM
And Lance is adept at racking up fouls, which will be a significant factor in how many minutes he stays on the court. To date, Lance has committed 276 fouls in 1745 minutes of action. That equates to a foul every 6.32 minutes or 6.33 fouls per 40 minutes of action.

Comparatively, Dave McClure committed 157 fouls in 1736 minutes of action, which equates to a foul every 11.05 minutes or 3.62 fouls per 40 minutes of action.

Foul trouble has been Lance's nemesis but he has been improving. As a junior he averaged one foul per 7.25 minutes of action. He will need additional improvement as a senior if he is to fill the defensive specialist role.

wow, lance is like a modern day kurt rambis...

jimsumner
08-09-2009, 07:11 PM
"How do we expect to beat teams like the Tar Holes with a center like Brian Zoubek starting. Trust me in no way am i underminding him"

How is that not undermining Zoubek?

chrisheery
08-09-2009, 07:31 PM
"How do we expect to beat teams like the Tar Holes with a center like Brian Zoubek starting. Trust me in no way am i underminding him"

How is that not undermining Zoubek?

Its like when a southern woman says, "Oh, she is just sooo ugly. Bless her heart." You can't just say you aren't doing something when you clearly are. The truth is, you don't think he can get it done. If that's the case, just say it. Personally, I am happy we have this wide range of big men that we can use in various situations. I think the determination of the amount of minutes each guy gets in any game will depend on how he is playing and how he matches up. For all the problems Zoubek has, he usually has a positive influence when he stays on the court.

That said, I voted for Mason because I think he brings so much to the table. He's going to be a stud if not this year than next.

gumbomoop
08-09-2009, 07:43 PM
Lance should probably be a captain. He's paid his dues and has a good attitude.

For those comparing Lance to McClure, please...there is no comparison. McClure was limited physically but the guy really understood how to play defense and get rebounds. He gave nothing but positives when he was out there, particularly on defense.

Lance, despite superior physical gifts (as compared to McClure) does not bring such positives. People are always talking about his defense like he's Battier or something. He is mobile, but not all that smart on defense. He just doesn't have good instincts for the game.

That said, I'm sure K will get some production from Lance this year. For the first time, he'll have the luxury of not being forced to use Lance in ways that are inappropriate for his skills.

Many good points in this thread, including points that question other good points. The starting center topic has morphed into a more general big man topic.

I want to add several friendly amendments to 1Devil's comments here (and similar comments from a few others). Namely: DMc, once healthy, was very athletic, so he outrebounded bigger guys and blocked some shots, usually out of nowhere . LT, OTOH, is very [B]energetic, but too often sort of chaotic in ways that highlighted his disheveled instincts. Best seen, alas, in poor block outs, including, most maddeningly, on free throws. [Aarrrggghhhhhh!] Ditto in foolish fouls out front when stepping out [too bumptiously] to slow down a dribbler on switch/switch back. [Ditto for Z on this.]

Productivity at both ends from LT and Z will be one of many "little keys" to the season. 1Devil's right that K can finally use both LT and Z to fit skills and situations; and it's a genuine question whether these 2 seniors will contribute meaningfully at both ends. If both do, we're in high cotton. If not, they'll slide down the bench and the vibes will be awkward.

Many "little keys."

ice-9
08-09-2009, 11:25 PM
People forget that Zoubek had one of the better plus/minus stats last season. IMO he has proven that he can and will play. The only question is whether he can improve from a situational center to a general purpose one.

(I would quote the actual plus/minus, but for whatever reason I have to wait 30 seconds between searches which makes no sense to me.)

-jk
08-09-2009, 11:49 PM
(I would quote the actual plus/minus, but for whatever reason I have to wait 30 seconds between searches which makes no sense to me.)

It's the default setting in vBulletin boards - searching is very server intensive.

-jk

Bob Green
08-10-2009, 12:58 AM
People forget that Zoubek had one of the better plus/minus stats last season. IMO he has proven that he can and will play. The only question is whether he can improve from a situational center to a general purpose one.

Courtesy of Jumbo:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12453

Brian Zoubek's season plus/minus was +243, which was fifth best. On a Per 40 minutes basis, he was #1 at +22.8. He was also a member of our best plus/minus line-up. The Smith-Scheyer-Henderson-Singler-Zoubek line-up was utilized 68 times and produced a +136 plus/minus.

Blueequalslife23
08-10-2009, 05:43 AM
this is the best senirio so far that i seen...

miles at the 5 and mason at the 4, with singler, scheyer, and smith..thats our starting 5..quote it.

Really? I just can't see Nolan Smith starting for the Duke blue devils. Scheyer, Dawkins, Singler, Mason, Z is my guess. But many things will change...

Bob Green
08-10-2009, 08:14 AM
Really? I just can't see Nolan Smith starting for the Duke blue devils. Scheyer, Dawkins, Singler, Mason, Z is my guess. But many things will change...

IMO, Nolan Smith will start every game this coming season barring an injury. He will be the guy pegged to defend our opponents fastest backcourt player. Singler, Scheyer, and Smith are locks to start on the perimeter. In a private forum in which I participate one contributer dubbed the three: S Cubed. That has a nice ring so I'll publicly plagiarize it (I'm sure my devout Catholic wife will execute some Hail Marys for me).

I wouldn't be suprised to see Smith have a breakout year as a junior.

ice-9
08-10-2009, 08:36 AM
It's the default setting in vBulletin boards - searching is very server intensive.

-jk


I can't imagine many people use it. In the other online communities that I participate in, people are forever telling others to use the search function!

gumbomoop
08-10-2009, 08:47 AM
Really? I just can't see Nolan Smith starting for the Duke blue devils. Scheyer, Dawkins, Singler, Mason, Z is my guess. But many things will change...

It is fascinating how devoted fans - in this case, Blueequalslife23 and me - have, at times, such absolutely opposite perspectives. For I can't imagine NS not starting. Dawkins [DD] surely isn't a PG, so NS and JS will share PG duties; and I think most, but not quite all, posters think NS plays PG most, and certainly will guard the opposing PG.

Over past few months I've claimed K will say to NS: "You gotta play; no meek crap." I suspect K has already made this clear to NS, and, with Bob Green, I expect NS to live up to K's instructions. NS's assertiveness is not merely one of many "little keys" to our season, but a big, big key, arguably the biggest.

ACCBBallFan
08-10-2009, 09:01 AM
People forget that Zoubek had one of the better plus/minus stats last season. IMO he has proven that he can and will play. The only question is whether he can improve from a situational center to a general purpose one.

(I would quote the actual plus/minus, but for whatever reason I have to wait 30 seconds between searches which makes no sense to me.)


Courtesy of Jumbo:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12453

Brian Zoubek's season plus/minus was +243, which was fifth best. On a Per 40 minutes basis, he was #1 at +22.8. He was also a member of our best plus/minus line-up. The Smith-Scheyer-Henderson-Singler-Zoubek line-up was utilized 68 times and produced a +136 plus/minus.

Thanks for reminding people of Zoubek's effectiveness, despite his lack of style points.

With respect to Nolan and Jon, again a case of Offesnse versus defesne.

Nolan will defend the opposoing PG.

However on Offesne, Jon will likely lead Duke freeing up Nolan to accept passes and pentrate.

It's not all that different than Lance may guard the SF and play PF on Offense. Kyle will play SF on Offense while guarding the PF if that enables him to get whistled less.

Other than who brings the ball up, and that may vary by who gets there first, the two guards are somewhat interchanageable in Dulke motion offense.

SilkyJ
08-10-2009, 03:54 PM
Really? I just can't see Nolan Smith starting for the Duke blue devils. Scheyer, Dawkins, Singler, Mason, Z is my guess. But many things will change...

This kind of stuff drives me nuts. Its very similar to the few people who thought Elliot Williams would start over Jon Scheyer, which was ridiculous. Nolan is our best on-ball defender, the only person capable of guarding a quick PG, has played 2 years under Coach K and done well, though not great. And you think Dawkins, who has no PG abilities, is a very good recruit but by no means considered a program changer, has never played 1 day of college ball, and did not get to adjust to his new team with any summer practice is going to come in and displace Nolan? How do you reach that conclusion?

Welcome2DaSlopes
08-10-2009, 04:24 PM
i think with zoub as our starting Center we can't go to far. We NEED Mason to step up

Bob Green
08-10-2009, 04:48 PM
i think with zoub as our starting Center we can't go to far.

I disagree. Zoubek has been healthy for the whole summer so I expect he will be stronger, in better physical condition, and more confident as a senior. He could easily be a 9 points/9 rebounds in 20 minutes of playing time performer. As a junior, he averaged 4.1 points and 3.7 rebounds in 11.9 minutes. Those numbers extrapolated to 20 mpg are 6.9 points and 6.2 rebounds. His numbers as a senior will be better than 6.9/6.2 due to the aforementioned strength, conditioning, and confidence.


We NEED Mason to step up

I agree. Mason Plumlee needs to be a player who makes an immediate impact. I am quite excited at the prospect of seeing Mason and Zoubek playing side by side with Kyle Singler on the wing.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
08-10-2009, 05:04 PM
I disagree. Zoubek has been healthy for the whole summer so I expect he will be stronger, in better physical condition, and more confident as a senior. He could easily be a 9 points/9 rebounds in 20 minutes of playing time performer. As a junior, he averaged 4.1 points and 3.7 rebounds in 11.9 minutes. Those numbers extrapolated to 20 mpg are 6.9 points and 6.2 rebounds. His numbers as a senior will be better than 6.9/6.2 due to the aforementioned strength, conditioning, and confidence.

I understand where you are coming from and I hope you are right about Z. He's a really great guy that we all want to see succeed for his sake and for Duke's. That said, you're projecting an Abdelnaby-like jump that, IMO, is pretty optimistic. I'm not sure how many guys we've had that averaged 9/9 as seniors after averaging 4/4 for three seasons.

Maybe Z will find another level and double his minutes despite a crowded front court. If he does maybe he will also more than double his production despite a lot of other talented offensive options. But if that happens it will be very much outside of the norm and not, IMO, something we should expect he can "easily" do.

jimsumner
08-10-2009, 07:33 PM
I too, am excited to see what Zoubek can do after an injury-free summer.

But 9 rebounds per game in 20 mpg simply is not realistic.

In K's entire tenure at Duke, the only people who have ever hit 9 rpg are Christian Laettner, Cherokee Parks, Elton Brand, and Shelden Williams. Carlos Boozer came close. All were substantially more talented than Zoubek and all played well over 20 mpg.

I'd take 6 rpg and 2 bpg in a heartbeat.

speedevil2001
08-10-2009, 07:41 PM
1. n. smith
2. j. scheyer
3. k. singler
4. l. thomas
5. m. plumlee 2

this will be the starting 5 once the season starts.

Bob Green
08-10-2009, 07:48 PM
But 9 rebounds per game in 20 mpg simply is not realistic.

So I've allowed my optimism to get the best of me once again. :)

MChambers
08-11-2009, 07:22 AM
I too, am excited to see what Zoubek can do after an injury-free summer.

But 9 rebounds per game in 20 mpg simply is not realistic.
Jim,

It's August. Why does Bob or anyone else have to be realistic at this point?:)

grossbus
08-11-2009, 11:48 AM
"It's August. Why does Bob or anyone else have to be realistic at this point?"


except that the distance from reality seems to increase the closer we get to november.

ice-9
08-11-2009, 12:37 PM
By February we're all wondering why our vets seem so tired; whether our freshmen are hitting a wall; how and where Coach K is going wrong and losing his touch; grumbling about those Holes and cheaters up in Kentucky... :p

NSDukeFan
08-11-2009, 04:05 PM
Well, it is all tied up between Z and Mason at this point, I guess we'll have to allow K to break the tie on this one and start whoever he chooses whenever he chooses:D
I think they will both provide us with some great inside play this year. I also expect great contributions from Miles and Ryan.

Oriole Way
08-11-2009, 04:08 PM
I just gave Mason a 1 vote lead.

Greg_Newton
08-11-2009, 04:16 PM
Gotta love the 5 votes for Lance. I mean...... what?????

cwaugh
08-11-2009, 06:42 PM
Gotta love the 5 votes for Lance. I mean...... what?????

That's because when he plays it will be at the 4 most likely. I expect he will start there. This is a discussion about who plays center, or the 5 position.

Greg_Newton
08-11-2009, 07:14 PM
That's because when he plays it will be at the 4 most likely. I expect he will start there. This is a discussion about who plays center, or the 5 position.

I expect the same. The object of my confusion was to who in the world thinks Lance will be our starting center in '09-10...

cwaugh
08-11-2009, 11:24 PM
I expect the same. The object of my confusion was to who in the world thinks Lance will be our starting center in '09-10...

Oh ok. Sorry I interpreted your message wrong lol. But yea I agree with you.

Duke of Nashville
08-12-2009, 11:14 AM
I would like to see Miles and Mason starting together. Play the 4 and 5 like Jon and Nolan will be with the 1 and 2.

The one who gets a defensive board plays the trailer for the break while the other sprints down the court for position under the basket. And if neither gets a rebound then its to whomever gets there first....Sounds like a plan to me.

OldSchool
08-12-2009, 05:35 PM
I think we'll see Miles and Mason starting together next year.

This year, I think we'll see Z and Mason starting together.

In the photos of Z & the Plumlees working with Christian Laettner, it looks like Z has lowered his body fat - exactly what he needed to do IMO.

I hope he has been working the squat rack - an improvement in his vertical would make him more effective.

Memphis Devil
08-12-2009, 06:30 PM
I think we'll see Miles and Mason starting together next year.

This year, I think we'll see Z and Mason starting together.

In the photos of Z & the Plumlees working with Christian Laettner, it looks like Z has lowered his body fat - exactly what he needed to do IMO.

I hope he has been working the squat rack - an improvement in his vertical would make him more effective.

Do you have a link to these pics?

OldSchool
08-12-2009, 06:35 PM
http://dukeblueplanet.smugmug.com/gallery/8525209_a3Nig#561216545_DNSXv

SilkyJ
08-12-2009, 08:42 PM
In the photos of Z & the Plumlees working with Christian Laettner, it looks like Z has lowered his body fat - exactly what he needed to do IMO.

I hope he has been working the squat rack - an improvement in his vertical would make him more effective.

Its easy to improve when you're vertical is roughly 8 inches! :eek:;)

I think we'll see Mason, Z and probably Miles all start at some point this year. How it all pans out is really tough to predict. My only thing about MP2 at the 4 is I just don't know if he has the footspeed for it. Can others who have seen him play comment?

airowe
08-12-2009, 08:46 PM
Its easy to improve when you're vertical is roughly 8 inches! :eek:;)

I think we'll see Mason, Z and probably Miles all start at some point this year. How it all pans out is really tough to predict. My only thing about MP2 at the 4 is I just don't know if he has the footspeed for it. Can others who have seen him play comment?

He's got it.

FireOgilvie
08-12-2009, 09:12 PM
Its easy to improve when you're vertical is roughly 8 inches! :eek:;)

I think we'll see Mason, Z and probably Miles all start at some point this year. How it all pans out is really tough to predict. My only thing about MP2 at the 4 is I just don't know if he has the footspeed for it. Can others who have seen him play comment?

It seems to me that Mason if faster than Kelly, although I've never seen them race... that would be interesting to see.

I don't know if you really have to be that quick to play PF, but I'm sure Mason is quick enough.

Blueequalslife23
08-13-2009, 03:23 PM
It is fascinating how devoted fans - in this case, Blueequalslife23 and me - have, at times, such absolutely opposite perspectives. For I can't imagine NS not starting. Dawkins [DD] surely isn't a PG, so NS and JS will share PG duties; and I think most, but not quite all, posters think NS plays PG most, and certainly will guard the opposing PG.

Over past few months I've claimed K will say to NS: "You gotta play; no meek crap." I suspect K has already made this clear to NS, and, with Bob Green, I expect NS to live up to K's instructions. NS's assertiveness is not merely one of many "little keys" to our season, but a big, big key, arguably the biggest.

I deffaintly am wrong on this occasion. It was just pure out of the frustration of NS never really stepping his game up, I have to say though Jon ran the point sooooooo much better than nolan did. Nolan needs to assert himself as a threat. If I was a coach facing Duke i wouldn't put the X of Nolan like he should have on him.

Blueequalslife23
08-13-2009, 03:26 PM
This kind of stuff drives me nuts. Its very similar to the few people who thought Elliot Williams would start over Jon Scheyer, which was ridiculous. Nolan is our best on-ball defender, the only person capable of guarding a quick PG, has played 2 years under Coach K and done well, though not great. And you think Dawkins, who has no PG abilities, is a very good recruit but by no means considered a program changer, has never played 1 day of college ball, and did not get to adjust to his new team with any summer practice is going to come in and displace Nolan? How do you reach that conclusion?

Honestly? Lets take a breather. Did I in one second say Dawkins was a program changer? NOPE. And honestly this isn't displacing Nolan. Because if i'm coach K, i call Nolan in my office and say you better go in and take your spot, because Jon can run the point and Dre does have the abilities to CONTRIBUTE. :D

chrisheery
08-13-2009, 03:39 PM
Ryan Kelly isn't there. I guess the staff sees him more as a wing than a big man. I think it would behoove him to have both skill sets and take advantage of the person guarding him based on the mismatch.

SilkyJ
08-13-2009, 07:25 PM
Honestly? Lets take a breather. Did I in one second say Dawkins was a program changer? NOPE. And honestly this isn't displacing Nolan. Because if i'm coach K, i call Nolan in my office and say you better go in and take your spot, because Jon can run the point and Dre does have the abilities to CONTRIBUTE. :D

OK, but you just said you were wrong one post earlier, so I think my post was fair. You were a little quick to jump on Nolan and I was a little quick to jump on you. Call it square?


I deffaintly am wrong on this occasion. It was just pure out of the frustration of NS never really stepping his game up, I have to say though Jon ran the point sooooooo much better than nolan did. Nolan needs to assert himself as a threat. If I was a coach facing Duke i wouldn't put the X of Nolan like he should have on him.

Blueequalslife23
08-15-2009, 04:29 AM
OK, but you just said you were wrong one post earlier, so I think my post was fair. You were a little quick to jump on Nolan and I was a little quick to jump on you. Call it square?

Fair enough my friend, haha

DukieInBrasil
08-15-2009, 09:08 PM
I will always take the experienced upperclassman over the freshman when it comes to ACC big men and projecting starters. I have to see Mason or Miles prove themselves first to change my opinion or hear very specific quotes from the coaching staff.

You always have to rely on history when you have no other knowledge about freshman bigs. I'll take Zoubek for now.

this captures my thoughts pretty well.

One anectdote that might be worth mulling over. Dhantay Jones started as the SG or SF on the Nuggets last year and almost never played even half the minutes of the game. The coach saw lots of value in having DJ in there at the begining to give the team a certain edge, but chose to sit him the majority of almost every game.
Now, apply this logic to Z. K may want Z to start for any number of reasons but during the course of the game, and over the course of the year, decide that MP I or II should get more minutes, while continuing to start Z. Just a thought.

mgtr
08-15-2009, 09:54 PM
this captures my thoughts pretty well.

One anectdote that might be worth mulling over. Dhantay Jones started as the SG or SF on the Nuggets last year and almost never played even half the minutes of the game. The coach saw lots of value in having DJ in there at the begining to give the team a certain edge, but chose to sit him the majority of almost every game.
Now, apply this logic to Z. K may want Z to start for any number of reasons but during the course of the game, and over the course of the year, decide that MP I or II should get more minutes, while continuing to start Z. Just a thought.

I agree with this logic. I think that Zoubs will start the first few games, maybe more. But when we get to conference play, it is wide open. I hope we have tons of competition for the spot.
For the record, it is still tied!!

ice-9
08-15-2009, 11:10 PM
this captures my thoughts pretty well.

One anectdote that might be worth mulling over. Dhantay Jones started as the SG or SF on the Nuggets last year and almost never played even half the minutes of the game. The coach saw lots of value in having DJ in there at the begining to give the team a certain edge, but chose to sit him the majority of almost every game.
Now, apply this logic to Z. K may want Z to start for any number of reasons but during the course of the game, and over the course of the year, decide that MP I or II should get more minutes, while continuing to start Z. Just a thought.


Jason Kidd is another example of this philosophy, so there is precedence.

Devilsfan
08-15-2009, 11:17 PM
I tend to agree. With Coach K it's who finishes the game (crunch time) that really matters.

DevilDan
08-15-2009, 11:43 PM
I want Brian to make a contribution this year. He had moments last season, but I'd like to see him get points/blocks/boards on a consistent basis, in what likely will be 12-15 minutes/game max. Just imagine an offense where Brian and Miles give good minutes in the post, and are flanked by KYLE at one forward, and MASON at the other.

And JUST ONCE in my lifetime, I would like to see Brian DUNK a BASKETBALL during a live game. It's about 80 days before the first game, and I am getting PSYCHED.

throatybeard
08-15-2009, 11:53 PM
The poll is broken. There's no option for "I don't care."

This stuff works itself out.

Kedsy
08-16-2009, 12:12 AM
And JUST ONCE in my lifetime, I would like to see Brian DUNK a BASKETBALL during a live game.

He dunked at least once last season. I saw it on TV.

SilkyJ
08-17-2009, 01:38 PM
The poll is broken. There's no option for "I don't care."

This stuff works itself out.

Aaaand he's back!