Alec Baldwin may be funny...

[feldspar]

...but I don't think I can ever watch him and laugh again.

Check out the comments he made to his daughter in a voice mail which was leaked to the tabs this week:


The festering bad blood between movie-star exes Alec Baldwin and Kim Basinger erupted Thursday when an angry phone message from Baldwin to his daughter was made public. On the recording, Baldwin can be heard berating his 11-year-old, Ireland, "You are a rude, thoughtless little pig."

"You don't have the brains or the decency as a human being," he says, apparently upset that she did not answer her phone for a planned call.

"I don't give a damn that you're 12 years old, or 11 years old, or that you're a child, or that your mother is a thoughtless pain in the a** who doesn't care about what you do as far as I'm concerned. You have humiliated me for the last time with this phone."

Wow.

Link (http://apnews.excite.com/article/20070420/D8OKB5O80.html)

[Bostondevil]

this just begs the question, who leaked the voice mail? And why?

[JasonEvans]

He is in the middle of a brutal 6-year-long divorce battle with Kim Basinger, a battle in which she has leaked all kinds of horrible things about him to the media. Some of the stuff she has said has been discredited, some remains unproven but unrefuted. Still, they clearly hate each other with a passion. I may be wrong, but I believe that Basinger violated a court order in leaking this tape.

Now, none of that excuses his conduct in making the comments on that phone call but it bears mention that we do not know the context here. Maybe he had gotten a foul-mouthed message from Kim or, worse still, from his daughter. Maybe this was the 15th time his daughter had blown off their scheduled phone conversation and he was mad/worried that Basinger was poisoning his daughter against him. Maybe he was just having a bad day.

I am the parent of 2 wonderful boys who are mostly really good kids but I know I have yelled at them in a way that I later regretted -- many times. Now, I've never used language like Alec Baldwin did, but I bet there are parents out there who have. It is not like he was threatening to beat her or he was dropping F-bombs left and right.

Regardless, I think his response to the whole thing really speaks volumes. Here is his statement:


"In the best interest of the child, Alec will do what (Kim Basinger) is pathologically incapable of doing…keeping his mouth shut and obeying the court order. The mother and her lawyer leaked this sealed material in violation of a court order. Although Alec acknowledges that he should have used different language in parenting his child, everyone who knows him privately knows what he has been put through for the past six years."

[feldspar]

It also struck me that he's not really quite certain how old his daughter is.

;)

I'm not taking sides here, just found it interesting...and sad.

[Jfrosh]

I think we have all said things we regret when talking to our children, but there is no excuse for the bullying that he did. He is angry at his ex, and had a temper tantrum, but you should never, ever talk to a child that way.

That being said:
I'll still laugh every time I see the "Schwetty Balls" skit.

[Bostondevil]

In some ways, I can't believe I'm defending this but, well, how much time have you spent around 11 year old girls? That's 6th grade. Certainly old enough for the mean girl in them to start coming out. I've certainly seen a lot of rude, thoughtless, piggish behavior out of some of them. And if they aren't held in check by a parent, watch out.

To me, it seems like a very frustrated father who knows if he isn't allowed significant say in how his daughter is being raised, and soon, well, he's got a right to be angry. If she treats her own father with such disrespect, and that's certainly implied in the message, she probably treats everyone with an element of disrespect.

As an aside, two of my sons birthdays are in May. I've already started thinking of them as 10 and 7 even though for a couple more weeks they are in fact 9 and 6.

[tux]

Oh no! Is Alec Baldwin going to have to get fired from 30 Rock now. Maybe Don Imus can fill in as Jack Donaghy.

Kidding aside (and on a slightly different note), this has been a rough couple of weeks for NBC, especially for Steve Capus...

[BlueDiablo]

I wonder if he also told her, "Put down that Kool-Aid! Kool-Aid is for closers!"

'Cause that would have been awesome.

[tecumseh]

Listen to the tape again, it is all about Alec Baldwin. He is crying about the tremendous hardship of him the great, Alec Baldwin, having to stop what he is doing and calling someone and that person is not there to answer the phone and this makes him the great Alec Baldwin look bad.

Then he is trying to bully an 11yr old girl. This probably works for all the other unfortunate people who have to deal with him but surely this will backfire and drive his daughter closer to his ex.

[JasonEvans]

Listen to the tape again, it is all about Alec Baldwin. He is crying about the tremendous hardship of him the great, Alec Baldwin, having to stop what he is doing and calling someone and that person is not there to answer the phone and this makes him the great Alec Baldwin look bad.


Do yiou have kids? How old are they? He sounded like a frustrated father to me, not a guy who is all about himself. Yeah, his language went over the line but I'd bet that most parents have been at that level of frustration with their kids some time.

I would also add that I bet a fair amount of his anger was directed at Kim Bassinger (who may actually be insane) but he was venting it on the daughter. He probably thought Kim was the person keeping his daughter from talking with him.

I know some folks who run with the stars in Hollywood and the consensus out there is that Kim is just a lunatic and Alec is caught up in a nearly impossible situation.

-Jason "divorce celebrity style is uuugly!" EVans

[feldspar]

Do yiou have kids? How old are they?

What does that have to do with anything?

You just don't speak that way to children. I don't care how old they are or how rudely they behave.

It's verbal abuse, plain and simple.

[tecumseh]

I do have three teenagers at home with me. I listened to it with two of them and their mother and we all both sort of laughed and were appalled by it. It is verbal abuse and is also clear Alec Baldwin has an EGO the size of Jupiter.

He is yelling at an eleven year old about how he is embarressed and humiliated because she is not there to answer the phone and that it is such a hardship for him to make these phone calls. PLEASE he is the star on the set and some lacky hands him a cellphone and no one answers so he throws a tantrum and calls his daughter a pig and when his daughter ends up hating him it must be Kim's fault.

[Bostondevil]

He is yelling at an eleven year old . . .

We don't know a lot of things about this conversation. We don't know who determines the times of the phone calls. We don't know if Kim Basinger screens calls for her daughter, it may very well be that the daughter never heard the voice mail, until it was made it public. We don't know how much access to his daughter has been controlled over the years. We don't know what kinds of things are being said to the girl by her own mother. We don't know how many times something like this has happened before. We do know that somebody leaked this message to the public. It's not very hard to figure out who. IMHO making it public is the worse sin in this situation.

I've listened to it once now. I still think it sounds like a desperate father at the end of his rope.

[tecumseh]

Boston Devil.
I agree I cannot imagine that making this public can serve the child's best interests.
I also cannot imagine how this verbal attack on this child can serve her interests (or Alec Baldwin's). I do feel that there is any context in which this verbal abuse on an 11 yr old is appropriate. We all have frustrations to deal with.

[JasonEvans]

So, to sum up--

There is total agreement that talking to your child like this is probably not cool. Some of us feel that there may be some context missing which makes it a little more understandable. This means we think Baldwin was somewhere between a really bad guy and someone who exhibited poor judgement and anger management.

But, there is also total agreement that leaking it to the public was a horrible thing to do. If we think Baldwin acted poorly, I think most of us feel Basinger was far, far worse when she leaked this.

-Jason

[Duvall]

I wonder if he also told her, "Put down that Kool-Aid! Kool-Aid is for closers!"

"Nice guy? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TROhlThs9qY)[1] I don't give a #%$&. Good father? $&*% you! Go home and play with your kids."

Baldwin is killing it on 30 Rock - I don't really care if he's a bad parent.

[1]Warning: Link contains foul language.[2]
[2]But you already know that, right?[3]
[3]And let's face it - if you're a Duke basketball fan, how sensitive can you be?

[The Gordog]

What does that have to do with anything?

You just don't speak that way to children. I don't care how old they are or how rudely they behave.

It's verbal abuse, plain and simple.

I have to say I disagree. Over the line? Yes. Would I ever talk that way? I hope not. But there are far worse things a parent could say.

The fact is she was not just late for a phone call, she was suppossed to be picked up by Baldwin at that time and she had her phone turned off. If you are my 11 or 12 year old daughter you have your phone on *At All Times* if you are out of my house. That is the reality in these dangerous times.

[feldspar]

But there are far worse things a parent could say.

Well, if we're using that standard, there are far worse things that a child molester can do than just touching a child inappropriately over their clothes. There are far worse things that a spouse abuser can do than pushing his wife down the stairs. There are far worse things a mugger can do than stabbing his victim in the arm.

Just because there are far worse things that could have been done does not mean this is not verbal and emotional abuse.

I understand there are extenuating circumstances, most of which we are unaware of. I understand that, from what we can tell, Kim B. is a royal b**tch. None of that excuses the words that he used and the way he chose to use them.

I have to say, I'm surprised at the level of "oh, it's not that bad" and "we've all lost our temper" discussion that I'm hearing regarding this situation, especially from those who have kids.

[Bostondevil]

I for one don't throw it around lightly and certainly not in situations where I'm not even close to knowing all the facts. Also, I would hate to have the absolute worst things I've ever said to my children typed up and handed to me. I'll even bet that if we typed up the absolute worst things any of us have said to a loved one, very few of us would be clear of criticism, particularly from this crowd. We all say things we shouldn't. Accusing others of being abusers might even be in that category.

From another discussion I happened across about the Baldwin incident, later in the same phone call he apologizes and says that if this problem needs to be dealt with face to face he will fly out there immediately to deal with it. Why doesn't that part of the conversation get any press?

[tecumseh]

Feldspar, even without knowing all the "facts" there is no context in which this is an acceptable way to speak to an 11 yr old. period.

Boston Devil ..who says this is Alec Baldwin at his worst? I mean if he gets that upset with an 11 yr old for not having the phone switched on how does he react when she does something truely bad? I do not think he was to pick her up it sounds like he is out of town.

My 15 yr old never carries a cellphone feels it invades his privacy and I think he is probably right.

[MarineTwinsDad]

With three grown children (twin sons in the Marine Corps directly out of high school), I still can not agree with any sympathy for the response of Baldwin. I kind of agree with the fact that the tape was leaked, in that it provides support for what could be a battered wife syndrome.

For a number of years I was involved in Middle schools. One year I was on Guam, and conferenced with a mother about her son's behavior. When I made a comment that he wasn't always on his best behavior, she turned around and floored him with one swat. After that I learned to make sure both the parent and child weren't in the same place when I suggested changes in behavior.

But Baldwin is a public figure. He knows that what he says reflects on his image. He also shoud have known that whatever he yelled into that phone would have upset his daughter. He did not have an excuse to speak to her that way.

[Bostondevil]

Tecumseh, I never said it was Baldwin at his worst, what I said and keep saying is, we don't know. What we've seen is an incomplete transcript from one voice mail. There may be more, there may not be. There may be worse, there may not be. We don't know. (And I have to add, nor should we.)

[tecumseh]

Boston Devil
I know you did not say it was Baldwin at his worst, but you said supposed they took the most hateful things any of us have said and put them out over the internet. I was just noting these might not be his worst things so the analogy may not be accurate for all we know this may be Alec Baldwin on a good day.

About the only thing I can say in his defense is that I have seem many instances where divorce makes people act badly. The most extreme example recently is that man who wrecked the plane with his daughter on board into his mother in laws house.

[Bostondevil]

Ok, Tecumseh, and I wasn't really making the point about Baldwin, I was thinking that you could perhaps make an argument that we're all abusers if you took the worst things we've ever said and read them out of context with no background information or evidence of a further apology. And maybe we are all abusers and it's a matter of degree. I think most of us aren't of course but that we've probably all said things that examined by the world at large would give people pause. I'm not excusing it, really, I'm just trying to
say that inexcusable things do happen everyday. Now what? Sometimes you have to accept the apology and move on, right?

And my defense of Alec Baldwin is just that I'm really sorry I know this about him because I don't think it's my business and I think it's unfair that I do know this about him.

[The Gordog]

Well, if we're using that standard, there are far worse things that a child molester can do than just touching a child inappropriately over their clothes. There are far worse things that a spouse abuser can do than pushing his wife down the stairs. There are far worse things a mugger can do than stabbing his victim in the arm.

Just because there are far worse things that could have been done does not mean this is not verbal and emotional abuse.

I understand there are extenuating circumstances, most of which we are unaware of. I understand that, from what we can tell, Kim B. is a royal b**tch. None of that excuses the words that he used and the way he chose to use them.

I have to say, I'm surprised at the level of "oh, it's not that bad" and "we've all lost our temper" discussion that I'm hearing regarding this situation, especially from those who have kids.

Feldspar,
I went back and read the linked article and still do not see anything that raises to the level of verbal abuse. There were no threats of physical or emotional violence. Bad parenting, over-the-top exaggeration? Sure. No excuse? Agreed. But abuse? Please show me what was abuse and why.

[feldspar]

Feldspar,
I went back and read the linked article and still do not see anything that raises to the level of verbal abuse. There were no threats of physical or emotional violence. Bad parenting, over-the-top exaggeration? Sure. No excuse? Agreed. But abuse? Please show me what was abuse and why.

I would suggest that you go read up on what exactly is verbal and emotional abuse. It does not neccessitate the threat of violence.

[tecumseh]

Most of us are not totally comfortable with our bodies avoid the nude look in the mirror. Girls when they are entering puberty are at an especially vulnerable age and for a girls father to be calling her a "pig" at such a time can be hurtful in the extreme. I agree with Feldspar on this one this is really out of line.

[captmojo]

Is this any surprise? Not unlike Don Imus, Alec Baldwin is prone to such outbursts. Not knowing the full story from the other side, there still is a way that a father could better handle his situation. The sad and abusive part is that the daughter has had this call exposed to public scrutiny.

For all you psychies out there, would not the release of this be systematic of a manic depressive action? Doesn't the manic usually aim for the jugular, and then later regret it? I'm looking for public response from Ms Basinger but have yet to see it.

I'm no Baldwin fan but I have to step back and see this in context offering benefit of doubt. He did apologize and it's none of my business.

I believe in not "sparing the rod" but only to the point of it's use to maintain respect. Teddy Roosevelt's quote regarding foreign policy also applies here.Of course there are always exceptions to this rule but I've had success in parenting with this tried and true method. "Speak softly and carry a big stick" means nothing if you don't at least prove you own a stick.

We have become a nation of new age wimps.
time out--gives a kid a chance to sit and plot his next move
gotta wear helmets to bike ride--pads to skate
We kids got injured and learned not to do stupid stuff.

[Clipsfan]

I don't have children, and I do not know how having them will change my perspective, but I have listened to the entire message (I forget the link, but it is on the web as an audio file). Anyway, Baldwin does say a couple things which he probably regrets, but on the whole I don't have a huge problem with what he was trying to tell his daughter. She committed to answering the phone at a set time, understanding that not only is it hard to talk to her dad because her mom is in an incredibly ugly divorce with him and tries to restrict contact but also because he is across the country and is very busy. He basically tells her that he's very upset with her lack of respect and that he doesn't want to have to go across the country just to sort her out, but will if necessary. I think that more parents need to instill respect in their children these days. That doesn't mean I agree with the name calling, and as I don't remember all the details, there may be other elements I disagree with. I still think that the overall message was blown out of proportion due to the name calling, and that the overall message wasn't all that bad. I was yelled at as a child, and punished, and think that it was a good thing on the whole, no matter how much I may have disliked it at the time.

[The Gordog]

I would suggest that you go read up on what exactly is verbal and emotional abuse. It does not neccessitate the threat of violence.

Do you have any suggestions for a succinct summarry of the definition?

What exactly do you think is the most clearly abusive thing he did? Perhaps if we narrow it down to one item it would be easier to understand.

[feldspar]

Perhaps if we narrow it down to one item it would be easier to understand.

Sure thing. A quick Google search turns up these bullets from HelpGuide.org, an online, non-profit resource for mental health, healthy lifestyles and seniors/aging. I've bolded the bullets that I feel apply here:

Verbal or nonverbal abuse of a spouse or intimate partner may include:


Threatening or intimidating to gain compliance.
Destruction of the victim’s personal property and possessions, or threats to do so.
Violence to an animal or object (such as a wall or piece of furniture) in the presence of their partner, as a way of instilling fear.
Yelling, screaming, name-calling.
Shaming, mocking, or criticizing the victim, either alone or in front of others. Possessiveness, isolation from friends and family.
Blaming the victim for how the abuser acts or feels.
Telling the victim that they are worthless on their own.
Making the victim feel that there is no way out of the relationship.

[Duke4Ever32]

These are examples of abuse of one's partner or spouse - doesn't apply in this case. Certainly a different dynamic is in play in the context of one's spouse vs. in the context of one's child.

[The Gordog]

Sure thing. A quick Google search turns up these bullets from HelpGuide.org, an online, non-profit resource for mental health, healthy lifestyles and seniors/aging. I've bolded the bullets that I feel apply here:

Verbal or nonverbal abuse of a spouse or intimate partner may include:


Threatening or intimidating to gain compliance.
Destruction of the victim’s personal property and possessions, or threats to do so.
Violence to an animal or object (such as a wall or piece of furniture) in the presence of their partner, as a way of instilling fear.
Yelling, screaming, name-calling.
Shaming, mocking, or criticizing the victim, either alone or in front of others. Possessiveness, isolation from friends and family.
Blaming the victim for how the abuser acts or feels.
Telling the victim that they are worthless on their own.
Making the victim feel that there is no way out of the relationship.


Threatening to gain compliance? Are you serious? That is way too vague. I always say, don' tmake me give you a time out. Threatening to harm the child is what's relevant, and I heard no threats of harm in this example.

Yelling? Come on. That's sad, upsetting to the child. I tell my kids that if their safety is a t stake I WILL yell. Name-calling is wrong, I agree, so is mocking, but it's hardly abuse.

Criticizing? Hardly abuse. And at some point, people should be shamed when they do something terribly wrong. What parent of a teenager has never said, "You should be ashamed of yourself?"

Generalizing his criticizm to say she's worthless is probably the worst thing he did.

Making all this public strikes me as far worse abuse.