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OZZIE4DUKE
04-18-2007, 10:39 PM
Great episode. Just plain great! No slow moving filler here! Learning a little more of Desmond's background was not tedious, and the flash-forwards were very well done. But who didn't expect him to save Charlie once again? Not I.

The next four weeks are muchly anticipated!

Oh, and if y'all are not watching Jericho, the last couple of weeks have also been excellent. The "first" season last fall was slow, but not now!

ChrisP
04-18-2007, 11:00 PM
Kate gettin' dressed in her tent. :) That was worth it for me. Definitely need to see more of that.

Also, I am always the LAST person to catch all the little clues and I don't tape/TIVO the show and go back and watch it, but I did notice something tonight. Near the endof the episode, when Des goes into Goatee Monk's office to turn in his tunic, there's a quick shot of a framed photo on Goatee boy's desk. It's him (Goatee) and the woman from Des's visit to the jewelery shop. Think maybe Goatee set it up so Des would meet Penelope that day? Hmmmm...

Anyway, I have NO clue what this means, but it's interesting.

BuschDevil
04-18-2007, 11:06 PM
I agree, great episode... again. I always wondered why Desmond called everybody "brother".;) Next week looks like another good one...I can't wait to find out who that girl is. Where is Penny? Every week something happens that I did not expect... actually, several somethings. I love getting lost.:D

Also, agree on Jericho. Next week looks like a good one here, too.

BuschDevil
04-18-2007, 11:09 PM
Good catch on the photo.

Oh, and I couldn't agree more on the Kate part. Wow!

JasonEvans
04-19-2007, 08:36 AM
A curse upon you ChrisP for noticing the same little nugget I noticed last night. I was hoping to be the one to "break" that news. While I was watching the episode, as soon as I saw a photo on the guy's desk I paused the TIVO to check out who it was. My wife was getting annoyed and kept on saying, "it's nobody... it doesn't matter!!" And then I said, "it's the lady who sold Des the ring!" and she got real quiet before saying, "I hate this show. What is that supposed to mean?!?!"

Anyway, I found this today:
http://www.lostpedia.com/images/7/76/3x17_Ms_Hawking_Picture.jpg

-Jason "more later" Evans

ChrisP
04-19-2007, 09:08 AM
A curse upon you ChrisP for noticing the same little nugget I noticed last night. I was hoping to be the one to "break" that news. While I was watching the episode, as soon as I saw a photo on the guy's desk I paused the TIVO to check out who it was. My wife was getting annoyed and kept on saying, "it's nobody... it doesn't matter!!" And then I said, "it's the lady who sold Des the ring!" and she got real quiet before saying, "I hate this show. What is that supposed to mean?!?!"

Anyway, I found this today:
http://www.lostpedia.com/images/7/76/3x17_Ms_Hawking_Picture.jpg

-Jason "more later" Evans

Still don't know what it means, but...cool!

Also, if I had Tivo, I would have used it to watch the Kate parts over and over. But, then again, my wife wasn't watching with me last night, so I'll cut ya some slack.

Jfrosh
04-19-2007, 09:15 AM
Was I the only one cursing at Desmond when he saved Charlie again. Charlie really gets on my nerves. Agree about Kate and about Jerico, I always block of my Wednesdays for those two shows.

JasonEvans
04-19-2007, 09:16 AM
Good catch on the photo.

Oh, and I couldn't agree more on the Kate part. Wow!

Good thing she brought he most sexy black thong underwear with her when she was handcuffed on the plane...

Link to video of -- well -- you know (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT5bxoRSyh8)

-Jason "Afternoon delight... me like ;) " Evans

JasonEvans
04-20-2007, 09:07 AM
Ok gang-- I want to hear some opinions on this.

Did Desmond change who was parachuting to the island when he saved Charlie? Had Desmond seen Penny parachuting down to the island when he saw Charlie die or did he just see someone who he suspected was Penny? In other words, if Des had let Charlie die, would it have been Penny instead of random-Portugese-chick (RPC) dangling from the tree?

Was anyone else a little bit dsiappointed that the RPC was not someone we had seen before? I was both disappointed and kinda glad. It would have been too obvious if it had been the head monk or someone like that. We already played that game with Jack and Desmond in the football stadium running steps at the beginning of Season two. It is kinda nice that they are not playing the same tricks on us all the time.

-Jason "I wonder if RPC will last longer than Nikki?" Evans

feldspar
04-20-2007, 09:11 AM
Ok gang-- I want to hear some opinions on this.

Did Desmond change who was parachuting to the island when he saved Charlie? Had Desmond seen Penny parachuting down to the island when he saw Charlie die or did he just see someone who he suspected was Penny? In other words, if Des had let Charlie die, would it have been Penny instead of random-Portugese-chick (RPC) dangling from the tree?

Was anyone else a little bit dsiappointed that the RPC was not someone we had seen before? I was both disappointed and kinda glad. It would have been too obvious if it had been the head monk or someone like that. We already played that game with Jack and Desmond in the football stadium running steps at the beginning of Season two. It is kinda nice that they are not playing the same tricks on us all the time.

-Jason "I wonder if RPC will last longer than Nikki?" Evans


I personally would have been disappointed had it been Penny. I mean, I know she wants to find Desmond and all, but she's not going to go all GWB on us and put on a flight suit and eject from a crashing helicopter. Come on. I'm glad it was someone random, and I'm guessing that she's part of the crew Penny has hired to find (the Portuguese guys playing chess) and track down (RPC) Desmond and bring him back to her. She had the picture in that book in order to identify him.

JasonEvans
04-20-2007, 09:34 AM
By the way, everyone knows that the version of Catch-22 that Desmond found was in Portugese, right?

oso diablo
04-20-2007, 10:57 AM
Did Desmond change who was parachuting to the island when he saved Charlie? Had Desmond seen Penny parachuting down to the island when he saw Charlie die or did he just see someone who he suspected was Penny? In other words, if Des had let Charlie die, would it have been Penny instead of random-Portugese-chick (RPC) dangling from the tree?

no, no, and no

Desmond presumed it was Penny, based on the jumbled "puzzle pieces" of his vision, but i'm pretty sure there was never a shot of Penny as the parachutist. There was the shot of the photograph in his vision, and he "filled in the blanks" to his own desire.

JasonEvans
04-20-2007, 11:01 AM
no, no, and no

Desmond presumed it was Penny, based on the jumbled "puzzle pieces" of his vision, but i'm pretty sure there was never a shot of Penny as the parachutist. There was the shot of the photograph in his vision, and he "filled in the blanks" to his own desire.

Cool, I'm with you-- but then why did Des feel like he had to let Charlie die? Was Charlie's death and all the guys wandering around in the jungle together integral to the arrival of the parachutist? Why was Des so insistant that they do everything exactly as his vision indicated?

And, perhaps most importantly, does Des think that by saving Charlie he changed the identity of the parachutist?

-Jason "I wonder if we can ever kill off Charlie at this rate-- perhaps Des has to die first for Charlie to be offed" Evans

feldspar
04-20-2007, 11:17 AM
Cool, I'm with you-- but then why did Des feel like he had to let Charlie die? Was Charlie's death and all the guys wandering around in the jungle together integral to the arrival of the parachutist? Why was Des so insistant that they do everything exactly as his vision indicated?

And, perhaps most importantly, does Des think that by saving Charlie he changed the identity of the parachutist?

-Jason "I wonder if we can ever kill off Charlie at this rate-- perhaps Des has to die first for Charlie to be offed" Evans

I think perhaps Des thought that by saving Charlie he allowed the parachutist to die. Had he not saved Charlie, (who he thought was) Penny would have lived.

You'll notice that when he got to the scene, he was resigned to the fact that (who he thought was) Penny was dead. He took his time getting up to the tree and releasing her. And then he was quite shocked and animated when he found out (who he thought was) Penny was alive.

So, I took away from it that the island, or whatever force is causing him to have these visions, demanded a sacrifice in Charlie in order to deliver Penny to him alive. When he allowed Charlie to live, he figured he would show up and Penny would be dead already.

Rich
04-20-2007, 12:42 PM
My take was different. Since his visions supposedly represent reality, I think by changing the "facts" of his vision, he changed reality. According to his vision, there was a sequence of events leading up to Des kissing Penny, one of which was Charlie getting an arrow in the neck. By not letting Charlie take the arrow, he altered the course of events and, as a result, it wasn't Penny in the tree, and therefore no kissy-kissy.

Thinking out loud for a minute, though, he keeps changing reality by saving Charlie time and time again, but he believes that Charlie's time to die has come and that at some point he won't be able to save him. He's told Charlie, "You're gonna die, brother." This means that even if he changes the course of events in his visions, the ultimate consequence (Charlie's death) will nevertheless occur at some point (when Des can't save him). Does that mean that the ultimate consequence of this vision (kissing Penny) will nevertheless come true at some point? In other words, just as it's Charlie's destiny to die (according to Des's visions and no matter how many times he saves him), is it Des's destiny to see Penny again?

Pacer
04-20-2007, 01:25 PM
I didn't think that saving Charlie switched reality to take away Penny...

The only thing that makes me think twice about it is the title of the episode and the copy of "Catch-22." It clearly implies a tradeoff of damned if you do, damed if you don't... Thus, the save of Charlie must have a negative consequence.

dukeblueyes
04-20-2007, 02:29 PM
I kinda have a feeling Charlie was suppose to die in season one when Ethan left him hanging after kidnapping Claire. Maybe he's been cheating death ever since?

GDT
04-20-2007, 02:41 PM
Cool, I'm with you-- but then why did Des feel like he had to let Charlie die?

Clearly with all the sacrifice talk during the episode Desmond must make a sacrifice. I thought at first it was either Charlie or Penny, but I think now it's Charlie. Desmond can't commit to a relationship. He'll never get Penny unless he makes a total commitment. That commitment is letting Charlie die. That's the island's test. They maybe, like Issac, the island saves Charlie.

On the other hand, it first seemed to me that he was supposed to sacrifice Penny (figuratively). It seems odd, given Eko's fate, to demand that he let an innocent person die when he can save him. But, given the Abraham story, it seems like a test of faith, not of morals.

Of course, I'm Biblically challenged so I may be reading this all wrong.

johnb
04-22-2007, 06:12 PM
Finally got to watch the show. Agree it was super.

A couple of thoughts:

Penelope is the wife of Odysseus who waited patiently for him while he went off to the Trojan War. This made me look her up in wikipedia, which reports that her name in Greek is closest to 'duck,' which is what Des yells when he is tackling Charlie.

I'm not sure Charlie ever gets killed--Isaac wasn't. More importantly, I donít think this episode relates to the Bible. Des says this relates to the Abraham story, but he hasn't been asked by God to sacrifice his son. He's got visions (or flashes), and that isnít what happened to Abraham. Further, virtually everything he says in the whole episode is a lie, and heís a failed monk, and I donít think heís going to be the showís founding religious leader. He's more like Cassandra, the prophet who, like Penelope, lived during the Trojan War. The talent drove her crazy.

Like the Trojan War, Catch 22 took place on an island in the general vicinity off the Mediterranean. And Heller made lots of references (Bible, myths, etc), told the story from lots of angles, and the battle was not against the Others (the Germans) but against themselves.

BlueDiablo
04-23-2007, 09:36 AM
Finally got to watch the show. Agree it was super.

A couple of thoughts:

Penelope is the wife of Odysseus who waited patiently for him while he went off to the Trojan War. This made me look her up in wikipedia, which reports that her name in Greek is closest to 'duck,' which is what Des yells when he is tackling Charlie.

Also, someone pointed out to me recently that Penelope had 108 suitors. 108 is the sum of the "numbers" and the number of minutes within which the numbers had to be entered by Desmond into the hatch's computer.

Pretty cool.

tombrady
04-26-2007, 09:50 AM
I think charlie is staying alive because in real life, evangeline and the guy that plays charlie are dating. knowing that evangeline is a lifeblood of the show (because she's really hot), maybe she threatened (though not explicitly) to leave the show if she can't keep acting on set with her BF. she could CLEARLY get higher paying roles in some other shows or movies right now (because she's famous and hot), but she probably can't do both at the same time. if she can't have hubby around, she probably doesn't want to be around either.

anywhoo, i figure this has as much juice in it as any lost theories.


(i don't really believe this, i just enjoy pure speculation. and the fact that she's really hot).

JasonEvans
04-26-2007, 11:28 AM
I think charlie is staying alive because in real life, evangeline and the guy that plays charlie are dating. knowing that evangeline is a lifeblood of the show (because she's really hot), maybe she threatened (though not explicitly) to leave the show if she can't keep acting on set with her BF. she could CLEARLY get higher paying roles in some other shows or movies right now (because she's famous and hot), but she probably can't do both at the same time. if she can't have hubby around, she probably doesn't want to be around either.

anywhoo, i figure this has as much juice in it as any lost theories.


(i don't really believe this, i just enjoy pure speculation. and the fact that she's really hot).

One of the great things about having a big ensemble cast and a reputation for killing off characters is that you have a bit more control over the actors on your show. I doubt that Evengeline Lilly, a total unknown who had done zero acting before Lost plucked her out of Canada, could play that game with the Lost producers and get away with it. They'd just kill Kate off if she made too much trouble. It is not like she is the only hottie on the island.

I think Charlie's death is so anticipated, the show will keep him alive merely for the surprise factor-- at least for now. As I have stated before, I think Desmond needs to die first before the show can off Charlie.

-Jason "Jack may be the only indispensible member of the cast, though there are rumors that Matt Fox wants to do more movies and would not mind leaving" Evans

feldspar
04-26-2007, 12:14 PM
-Jason "Jack may be the only indispensible member of the cast, though there are rumors that Matt Fox wants to do more movies and would not mind leaving" Evans

I dunno. I get the sense from a lot of the LOST fans I interact with that they wouldn't really shed a tear if Jack said buh-bye. I know I wouldn't. Ever since the middle of Season 1 he hasn't been a very likeable character.

BlueDiablo
04-26-2007, 12:33 PM
-Jason "Jack may be the only indispensible member of the cast, though there are rumors that Matt Fox wants to do more movies and would not mind leaving" Evans

I don't think Jack is indispensable. In fact, I think his character has gotten close to irredeemable. He's arrogant, bossy and gullible--a bad combination for someone who fancies himself a leader. It's interesting to note that in the original version of the pilot, Jack died and Kate's character assumed some of the Jack's roles on the show.

What's remarkable almost three seasons into the show is how they are able to introduce so many new characters, even though the characters are living on a (not-so) desert island in the middle of nowhere.

JasonEvans
04-26-2007, 01:08 PM
Ok, is anyone indispensible? My heart says Locke, Sayid, and Sawyer are three of the most beloved characters, but Lost could go on without them. I think the show could lose any one character, perhaps even two of the big stars-- but if we saw three or four go away that would probably hurt.

On the other hand, I'd probably keep watching the show if they killed off the entire Lostaways and just focussed on Ben and the others ;)

--Jason "the amazing thing is how they keep finding compelling actors, while Heroes keeps hiring total stiffs" Evans

tombrady
04-26-2007, 02:39 PM
One of the great things about having a big ensemble cast and a reputation for killing off characters is that you have a bit more control over the actors on your show. I doubt that Evengeline Lilly, a total unknown who had done zero acting before Lost plucked her out of Canada, could play that game with the Lost producers and get away with it. They'd just kill Kate off if she made too much trouble. It is not like she is the only hottie on the island.

-Jason "Jack may be the only indispensible member of the cast, though there are rumors that Matt Fox wants to do more movies and would not mind leaving" Evans

Dude, come on. Seriously. Yeah there are some other female characters on the show that are acceptable. But Lilly is an absolute dimer. Perfect 10. My girlfriend's grandfather says he only watches the show because of her. And he's completely serious.

I bet a portion of the male population, especially those not that into it to begin with, would stop watching the show if she was offed. Esp. if they didn't replace her with someone as hot.

FHM 100 Sexiest Women in the World 2006 : #8
Maxim's Hot 100 list of 2005: #2

'Nuff Said. Numbers don't lie.

johnb
04-27-2007, 06:55 AM
Jack's role has become confusing. He appeared solid and interesting at the beginning--perhaps a tad judgmental but still interesting. His decision to play football with the Others hasn't come close to being adequately explained, nor has his shrugging off of Kate. As whatshername asked a couple of years ago, 'you're hot, she's hot. so why aren't you doing it?"

His father seems central to a bunch of the stories (did his father's casket ever get found?), as might he. If it didn't involve deceptive backstory, I would have thought that Jack was an Other, perhaps the head Other.

Perhaps they are wedging Jack into a pro-Juliet position so that when she is found out, and they are forced to choose sides between their rival Houses and love, they can do some mutual suicide thing, though one of them (probably he) can survive. But that would be too ham handed, I think.

As for character regeneration, I watched Punked last night, and walt got kate punked (the premise was stupid, but I watched when i saw the players). Reminded me that walt could come back, and, if the cyclops can come back, perhaps everyone can come back.

OZZIE4DUKE
04-27-2007, 07:51 AM
Jack's role has become confusing.

His father seems central to a bunch of the stories (did his father's casket ever get found?), as might he.

they did find the casket way back in season one. It was empty, and then Jack "saw" his father in the jungle. Didn't he even "speak" to him? Perhaps I'm the one halucinating about that conversation.

JasonEvans
04-27-2007, 08:40 AM
they did find the casket way back in season one. It was empty, and then Jack "saw" his father in the jungle. Didn't he even "speak" to him? Perhaps I'm the one halucinating about that conversation.

Just in case anyone is wondering, the producers have said that Jack's father is dead and will not be coming back.

-Jason "but they could lie ;) " Evans

BlueDiablo
04-27-2007, 10:03 AM
As for character regeneration, I watched Punked last night, and walt got kate punked (the premise was stupid, but I watched when i saw the players).

I think you mean Michael. Apparently, there was a major fallout during contract negotiations between Harold Perrineau and the show's producers. The creators have promised to return to the Michael/Walt story at some point, but the contract impasse may make that difficult.

johnb
04-27-2007, 11:12 AM
I did mean Michael, and I'd forgotten about the jungle/father incident. Now the show is entirely clear to me...