Henry Brothers possibly going to UK, not KU

[SilkyJ]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/recruiting/news/story?id=4298168

Not a done deal, but sounds like its close.

Calipari sleazy enough to recruit a committed player? I find that incredibly hard to believe :rolleyes:

[geraldsneighbor]

Wow, sounds like an incredibly humble family.

[Newton_14]

If this happens and I think we all know it will, then, well, I guess there are no words.

The NCAA has hit rock bottom. To allow Cal to turn the entire roster in much the same manner that Larry Brown did with the Bobcats is beyond belief. Just throw out all the rules. Guess it was not enough to kick last years kids off the team, he had to top that by recruiting players committed to other schools....

So why bother with any rules....Let Seth Curry and any other transfers just play immediately.

To solve our guard shortage, just let K make a few calls to guards on other NCAA teams that maybe are not getting the PT they wanted or just want to experience playing for more than one college in their career and bring them on in to Duke now.......

[rotogod00]

another article, this one from rivals:

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jn-henrys063009&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

[roywhite]

Doesn't this put UK over the salary cap?

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Roywhite has raised a very important question..... but I'm beginning to wonder what sort of chemistry these "stars" will have. Will they be able to work together as a team or will they play an egocentric offense?

[dukemsu]

Something here is starting to smell. Actually, it's smelled for decades, but this is a whole new level.

If this happens, the NCAA will set up an office inside Rupp.

If this happens, Cal officially enters the realm of No Win Situation. Win the whole thing or be labled a complete failure. Welcome to the big time, Cal.

If this happens, UK will soon take the title of College Basketball's #1 most hated team away from Duke.

dukemsu

[geraldsneighbor]

Kentuckysportsradio.com is reporting that they are going to Kentucky.

[gotham devil]

Something here is starting to smell. Actually, it's smelled for decades, but this is a whole new level.

If this happens, the NCAA will set up an office inside Rupp.

If this happens, Cal officially enters the realm of No Win Situation. Win the whole thing or be labled a complete failure. Welcome to the big time, Cal.

If this happens, UK will soon take the title of College Basketball's #1 most hated team away from Duke.

dukemsu
The NCAA won't do a thing.
They make too much money to self-police their two revenue-generating sports. Calipari and Self have never been labeled as clean, but, short of an egregious violation exposed by a media outlet that doesn't have a vested interest in maintaining the positive image of college basketball, the NCAA is not going to jeopardize their sport by tossing Kentucky or Kansas on probation, let alone give them the proverbial death penalty.

[dukelifer]

Something here is starting to smell. Actually, it's smelled for decades, but this is a whole new level.

If this happens, the NCAA will set up an office inside Rupp.

If this happens, Cal officially enters the realm of No Win Situation. Win the whole thing or be labled a complete failure. Welcome to the big time, Cal.

If this happens, UK will soon take the title of College Basketball's #1 most hated team away from Duke.

dukemsu

Well if they win it all- it could kill college basketball - or at least the one and done rule. Sometimes you have to hit rock bottom for there to be a change. This could do it. KY is going to regret this.

[dw0827]

The NCAA won't do a thing.
Calipari and Self have never been labeled as clean . . .


I am a life-long Duke fan (I'm 60) and even had season's tickets during the Bucky days.

I also live about 30 miles from KU and your comment about Self baffles me. Self has never been labeled as clean? What the hell does that mean? Who does the labeling? You? I've never heard anything about Self that gives me any pause for concern. The fact of the matter is that he is one heck of a coach and gets the most from his players. Last year was a perfect example. He had nothing. Nothing. Collins and Cole Aldrich. That's it. And look what he did.

You imply that Self is dirty. Prove it or shut the hell up.

[Greg_Newton]

To solve our guard shortage, just let K make a few calls to guards on other NCAA teams that maybe are not getting the PT they wanted or just want to experience playing for more than one college in their career and bring them on in to Duke now.......

Paging Eric Bledsoe... sighhhh... if only...

How's this for a cautionary tale, though:
The article has caused quite a buzz among Kansas fans, some of whom have criticized the Henry family on Internet message boards. Carl Henry said the scrutiny has caused his sons to reconsider their college options.

"101 Things We Love About The Barnes Family", someone start it! Hurry!

[geraldsneighbor]

I am a life-long Duke fan (I'm 60) and even had season's tickets during the Bucky days.

I also live about 30 miles from KU and your comment about Self baffles me. Self has never been labeled as clean? What the hell does that mean? Who does the labeling? You? I've never heard anything about Self that gives me any pause for concern. The fact of the matter is that he is one heck of a coach and gets the most from his players. Last year was a perfect example. He had nothing. Nothing. Collins and Cole Aldrich. That's it. And look what he did.

You imply that Self is dirty. Prove it or shut the hell up.

I'm not of the belief that Self is a dirty coach either, but there was an incident with Wall he had a minor recruiting violation. Also, they had a player last year (I believe Arthur) who had eligibility questions. There was also an incident with two players last year at the NBA rookie meetings where they were caught smokin' some of that "get high." One would assume it wasn't those guys first times doing that since high school.

[dukemsu]

The NCAA won't do a thing.
They make too much money to self-police their two revenue-generating sports. Calipari and Self have never been labeled as clean, but, short of an egregious violation exposed by a media outlet that doesn't have a vested interest in maintaining the positive image of college basketball, the NCAA is not going to jeopardize their sport by tossing Kentucky or Kansas on probation, let alone give them the proverbial death penalty.

I share your sentiments in many ways. But you're talking about an institution that has a long history of cheating (save the Pitino era forward), what will be perhaps a record for one and dones on one team, and Cal not renewing several schollys to get get guys in (which isn't against the rules, I know, but it looks terrible). It won't happen right away, but this all just looks too bad to not get looks from someone.

At what point does Cal become Public Enemy #1 for college athletics? The guy is just daring people to come after him.

dukemsu

[dw0827]

I'm not of the belief that Self is a dirty coach either, but there was an incident with Wall he had a minor recruiting violation. Also, they had a player last year (I believe Arthur) who had eligibility questions. There was also an incident with two players last year at the NBA rookie meetings where they were caught smokin' some of that "get high." One would assume it wasn't those guys first times doing that since high school.

Yea, and just recently Collins and Duke had a minor violation of the same nature regarding Wall. Self said hi to the guy. Wow. Arthur's eligibility questions were cleaned up without incident and the allegation had absolutely nothing to do with Self or KU. It was the high school. Remember Duke was after Arthur, too.

Caught smokin'? Please. First, so what. Second, ask JJ. Third, what the hell does that have to do with Self? Are you suggesting that Self condoned it or was complicit?

Please . . .

[Bob Green]

Several posters need to tone it down a notch before this thread gets out of hand. Thanks!

[Azdukefan]

I too have never heard anything that would indicate dirty on the part of Self but telling people to shut the hell up is over the top. There is and was a stigma that Duke gets all the calls. I guess the next time I hear this I need to tell them to shut the hell up! Mods help me please!

[dw0827]

Several posters need to tone it down a notch before this thread gets out of hand. Thanks!

I'll tone it down when the discourse on this board gets back to civility. Who are these people who think that they can malign anybody and everybody . . .

Self isn't clean.

Excuse me, but that is nonsense, it is unsubstantiated, and it needs to be ridiculed as such. People simply can't be allowed to say things like that without backing it up. As a long time member of this site, it offends me beyond comprehension.

So if the mods won't clean up such libelous statements, I will. Kick me off. Like I care. By the way, where's Jumbo?

[Azdukefan]

With UK already way over the scholly limit, would they be willing to let us little old Dukies have Bledsoe then (tongue and cheek over course because I believe we would outclass those guys next years and for years to come)? How about it?

[gotham devil]

I am a life-long Duke fan (I'm 60) and even had season's tickets during the Bucky days.

I also live about 30 miles from KU and your comment about Self baffles me. Self has never been labeled as clean? What the hell does that mean? Who does the labeling? You? I've never heard anything about Self that gives me any pause for concern. The fact of the matter is that he is one heck of a coach and gets the most from his players. Last year was a perfect example. He had nothing. Nothing. Collins and Cole Aldrich. That's it. And look what he did.

You imply that Self is dirty. Prove it or shut the hell up.

Ask Charlie Villanueva whether Bill Self's lead assistant sent three women to his and Nate Blue [CV's "street agent" (don't be naive enough to think that your wonder boy hasn't heard of them)]'s room and if that caused him to give a verbal to Illinois?

When that assistant left him, Self had to hire Kurtis Townsend-perhaps you're familiar with him.

http://www.seattlepi.com/cbasketball/176969_locke09.html

College basketball is a cesspool. There are those that knock Calipari for hiring Milt Wagner and giving Arthur Barclay a scholarship in order to land DaJuan Wagner, who helped Memphis and Calipari regain some stature among recruits, but they would also have to knock Self for giving Ronnie Chalmers a token gig.

[gotham devil]

I share your sentiments in many ways. But you're talking about an institution that has a long history of cheating (save the Pitino era forward), what will be perhaps a record for one and dones on one team, and Cal not renewing several schollys to get get guys in (which isn't against the rules, I know, but it looks terrible). It won't happen right away, but this all just looks too bad to not get looks from someone.

At what point does Cal become Public Enemy #1 for college athletics? The guy is just daring people to come after him.

dukemsu

He's profited heavily off of pushing the envelope.
He makes the organization look impotent and a mockery of the NCAA's favorite phrase, student-athlete.

[CameronBornAndBred]

With UK already way over the scholly limit, would they be willing to let us little old Dukies have Bledsoe then (tongue and cheek over course because I believe we would outclass those guys next years and for years to come)? How about it?
According to the article, they have one to spare after cutting loose two players. One of the brothers way will be payed for by the Yankees, Kentucky will provide the scholarship for Xavier. While this bodes to be the most amazing recruiting class of all time, I'm not sure some of the poster's expressed views here are anything short of jealousy. Who wouldn't be jealous of what Calipari has put together? The way he has done it is a bit seedy, but it is also legal. Until someone proves he has paid anyone to change their minds, what he has done is not in violation. They will be a most interesting team to watch next year.

[dw0827]

Ask Charlie Villanueva whether Bill Self's lead assistant sent three women to his and Nate Blue [CV's "street agent" (don't be naive enough to think that your wonder boy hasn't heard of them)]'s room and if that caused him to give a verbal to Illinois?

When that assistant left him, Self had to hire Kurtis Townsend-perhaps you're familiar with him.

http://www.seattlepi.com/cbasketball/176969_locke09.html

College basketball is a cesspool. There are those that knock Calipari for hiring Milt Wagner and giving Arthur Barclay a scholarship in order to land DaJuan Wagner, who helped Memphis and Calipari regain some stature among recruits, but they would also have to knock Self for giving Ronnie Chalmers a token gig.

The Chalmers thing has been discussed here at length. Search for it.

As for the Townsend thing . . I confess that I knew nothing about it. But aside from the one article, do you have anything else that would substantiate the sense that this is a bad guy? Not saying you're wrong . . . I'll look into it because it doesn't sound good. I'll look at his connection to Self and keep an open mind.

CV verballed because he got laid? If true, pathetic. You know what we say . . . act like you've been there before.

[Azdukefan]

Sorry if this is over my head but what "Yankees" are we talking about?

[CameronBornAndBred]

Sorry if this is over my head but what "Yankees" are we talking about?
THE Yankees...as in New York. From the first article (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/recruiting/news/story?id=4298168)...

"The Wildcats just cut loose two players -- Kevin Galloway (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=31774) and Matt Pilgrim -- to get down under the maximum 13 scholarships to 12.
Adding Xavier (C.J. can be a walk-on with his Yankees money) would mean Kentucky would be at the limit."

[dukemsu]

According to the article, they have one to spare after cutting loose two players. One of the brothers way will be payed for by the Yankees, Kentucky will provide the scholarship for Xavier. While this bodes to be the most amazing recruiting class of all time, I'm not sure some of the poster's expressed views here are anything short of jealousy. Who wouldn't be jealous of what Calipari has put together? The way he has done it is a bit seedy, but it is also legal. Until someone proves he has paid anyone to change their minds, what he has done is not in violation. They will be a most interesting team to watch next year.

Jealousy? Sure, there's some of that involved. But it also has to raise some eyebrows when a program that has been a mess the last few years manages to get this many elite level players in such a short time, and under a coach who has never pretended to be a straight arrow. Throw in the fact that they are Kentucky-a school with a checkered past regarding recruiting to say the absolute least-the situation at UK looks pretty sketchy from the outside.

dukemsu

[Azdukefan]

Just read the article for the first time. Thanks for keeping me honest. I was unaware he was drafted by the Yanks. Next time I will read before I open my mouth. Thanks again!

[ChicagoCrazy84]

I don't have a link, but according to 610Sports in Kansas, Xavier is staying with Kansas. I hope for their sake and for college basketball's sake, this is true.

[geraldsneighbor]

Please be true. UK doesn't deserve all of this good luck.

[BD80]

Doesn't this put UK over the salary cap?

Snort.

Of course, we all know there is no cap in college, which is why Cal is more successful here than in the NBA.

This is one team I will root against. It will set a record for the most one and done players in a year. I sense a bit of desperation. If he can't win with this group of one year stars, Cal may have trouble reloading each year.

Gosh, wouldn't it be a shame if there was some dissension and other coaches swooped in to poach remaining players?

[ncexnyc]

According to the article, they have one to spare after cutting loose two players. One of the brothers way will be payed for by the Yankees, Kentucky will provide the scholarship for Xavier. While this bodes to be the most amazing recruiting class of all time, I'm not sure some of the poster's expressed views here are anything short of jealousy. Who wouldn't be jealous of what Calipari has put together? The way he has done it is a bit seedy, but it is also legal. Until someone proves he has paid anyone to change their minds, what he has done is not in violation. They will be a most interesting team to watch next year.

OMG:eek: I can't believe I'm reading this! You my friend are about to be summoned before the self annoited ethics board and from there escorted directly to the woodshed. :D

I said all the crying over UK landing Wall was sour grapes, so I doubt your views on the Henry brothers won't go over very well with many on this board. I guess it's the old "truth hurts" scenario.

[dukeballer2294]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=4298823

Not happening

[SilkyJ]

Wow, quite a stir. Posted this as I left work and didn't expect it to be so popular for the late nighters

This is my favorite:


Just read the article for the first time. Thanks for keeping me honest. I was unaware he was drafted by the Yanks. Next time I will read before I open my mouth. Thanks again!

4th post of the thread. Overall #27. Wow.

As for the cleanliness of Calipari/college bball, the worst part isn't the coaches directly giving money, which I doubt Calipari bothers with anymore, but its the complicity with agents/runners/scumbags...and unfortunately facilitating connections and turning the other cheek can be awfully tough to prosecute.

[Cumae Sybl]

Personally, I am hoping for Ky to get these kids. They sound like problems, and I also think that Chemistry would have to be a concern at some point.

Also, and this is extremely petty of me, but I have to confess to no small amount of schadenfreud where some of their recruits are concerned. Have fun sharing that ball fellows.

On a serious note, Henry to KY would be good for Duke. Kansas is Duke's primary comp for Harrison Barnes. I really felt that Xavier Henry played the same type of game that Barnes does, only not quite as well. I have harbored a fear of Xavier Henry playing a key role on a national title favorite this coming season. All the while Self will be whispering to Barnes that Harrison can step right in for the One and Done Henry and take over his role on a team that will need scoring.

With Kansas being so close Iowa, relatively speaking, this really worried me. Seing Henry in a Kansas uni would have made it very easy for Barnes to picture himself in that exact role.

I say go to Ky Henry. I mean, I didn't exactly have a lot of respect for him since he'd already committed to Cal once. Plus, it will help Duke, if only incrementally.

[Chicago 1995]

I am a life-long Duke fan (I'm 60) and even had season's tickets during the Bucky days.

I also live about 30 miles from KU and your comment about Self baffles me. Self has never been labeled as clean? What the hell does that mean? Who does the labeling? You? I've never heard anything about Self that gives me any pause for concern. The fact of the matter is that he is one heck of a coach and gets the most from his players. Last year was a perfect example. He had nothing. Nothing. Collins and Cole Aldrich. That's it. And look what he did.

You imply that Self is dirty. Prove it or shut the hell up.

Proof? Heck, the NCAA is so feeble we don't even have proof that Calipari is dirty. We're just doing that with the amount of smoke that's come out of Calipari's programs at UMass, Memphis and now UK.

While there's not enough smoke about Self to put him in the same sentence with Cal, there's enough that it's fair to raise the question, and make your outrage seem, frankly, over the top.

Remember Anthony Longstreet's involvement in Sherron Collins recruitments?

http://www.herald-review.com/blogs/marktupper/?p=131 Longstreet, for those interested, got extremely defensive after Tupper's article and others like it, and without prompting, told the media to "“get the proof, produce the canceled check" before he'd been accused of any actual wrongdoing. No one accused of Longstreet of taking money. He just brought that up himself.

Then there's Darnell Jackson.

http://www.kuathletics.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/111505aad.html

Did Self know anything? According to the NCAA, no. Then again, according to the NCAA, Calipari didn't know anything about what happened at UMass, either, and that seems to damn him in most people's eyes.

There's also the hiring of Curtis Townsend. That's the same Kurtis Townsend who was part of Todd Bozeman's staff. You know, the Todd Bozeman who was at the center of probation at Cal that got Bozeman barred from coaching for a number of years. Townsend landed the Stewarts and CJ Giles though.

Speaking of hiring a coach to influence a recruit, Self did hire Ronnie Chalmers who just happened to be the father of Mario Chalmers -- that guy that hit a pretty big shot for KU two years ago.

There's also the whole KU athletic program being on probation currently for the lack of institutional control and the booster payments to outgoing players. Now that has been going on before Self got there, but it's undisputed that the issues with booster payments to graduating players and the other lack of control violations in the basketball program continued under Self.

A record as checkered as Calipari? No.

Someone whose record is so clean that no one should dare question it? Justifying your outrage?

Not a chance.

[JasonEvans]

CJ Henry was a stud basketball recruit in 2005 who chose to play profesional baseball instead. He signed with super-agent Scott Boras and was drafted in the middle of the first round of the MLB draft by the NY Yankees.

Henry was a SS and declared that he would be in pinstripes in less than 2 years. He said that he would play OF if Derek Jeter would not move off of SS, but some felt he was implying that Jeter should be moved to make room for him.

Henry signed with the Yankees for a $1.6 million signing bonus. The contract included a stipulation stating that the Yankees would pay his college tuition if he attended college.

Henry struggled in the minor leagues. He batted in the mid-200s every season and was dealt to the Philadelphia Phillies in 2006 as part of the deal for Bobby Abreau. He batted less than .200 in one season with the Phillies low-A farm team and was released by Philadelphia. He re-signed with the Yankees but again struggled in low-minor league ball. That is when he decided it was time to get back to basketball.

Though CJ had not played organized basketball in several years, plenty of teams came calling both because he had been a very good player but also because his family made it clear that CJ and Xavier would be a package deal. CJ injured his foot last year, so he never played a game for Memphis, but he claims he is actually better than Xavier. He is a 23-year-old freshman.

CJ and Xavier will spend one year in college, showing off their skills, before heading to the NBA (Xavier) or perhaps Europe (CJ-- no one knows how good he is). Want to know how committed to college they are? In this article (http://www.kansas.com/sports/story/870972.html) about the fact that they are working out on their own and not with the Kansas team this summer, read the following exchange:


Carl Henry says Xavier is not interested in attending class.

"If he didn't have to go to college, he wouldn't do it," Carl says.

A month after signing with the Jayhawks, Carl says, the family looked into Xavier playing in Europe for a year.

"You don't have to take any classes," Xavier says.

Carl found out that Xavier could sign a contract of $1 million for one season, but there was a snag: They would have to sign without knowing where Xavier would play. Carl was not willing to risk Xavier playing somewhere dangerous.

"I'm the one going over there with him," Carl says. "I'm not going over there where they're fighting."

Plus, Carl felt Xavier should take advantage of the exposure he'd receive playing on a national stage at Kansas. That was even more of a factor for C.J., who hasn't played in an organized basketball game in four years while pursuing a professional baseball career in the Yankees organization and sitting out a year as a walk-on at Memphis.

Carl says both of his sons hope to be one-and-done at KU.

"I don't like stepping on people's toes," Carl says, "but I just know what I know. I watch them play, all the Kansas kids. I like all these kids, (Sherron) Collins, (Tyshawn Taylor), they're good kids, man. But they're not better than C.J."

Pity they did not go to Kentucky... this family was made for Coach Cal.

--Jason "the folks who say Bill Self is clean... what do you think of him getting in bed with the Henry family?" Evans

[Wheat/"/"/"]

If this happens, UK will soon take the title of College Basketball's #1 most hated team away from Duke.

dukemsu

No way.....

:)

[dw0827]

Some weird stuff, there, Chicago.

Longstreet and Collins. "Remember Anthony Longstreet's involvement in Sherron Collins recruitments?" Well, as I understand it, Longstreet was Collins' high school coach so it comes as no surprise to me that he was involvement with his player's recruitment process. The article you link sounds like one reporter's sour grapes because Collins didn't go to Illinois like he was supposed to . . . went elsewhere so the reporter think something must be funny about it all. Weak. Even the reporter says "I’m not accusing anyone because I have no proof of misbehavior. But I am always uncomfortable when outside influences seem to make the recruiting decision rather than the player himself. And one can’t help wonder why that outside influence felt so compelled to dictate the young man’s decision."

What a joke. "Outside influences?" The recruiting process is nothing but outside influences. Big deal. When a recruit goes somewhere other than the "presumed" school, it is evidence of wrongdoing? Laugh out loud.

Longstreet and Collins? Nothing. Nada. Innuendo.

Jackson. The booster who soiled this kid was working his magic back in the fall of 2002 when, GASP, Roy Williams was the coach of KU. So now you want to pin this on Self? After an investigation, it was determined that Self wasn't involved and knew nothing about it. Hey, what about Roy? But Self?

Jackson? Nothing. Nada. Innuendo.

Chalmers. This was the subject of a thread some time ago and there is no sense repeating it here. Look it up. Chalmers was and is qualified to do the job he has. This boils down to a matter of perception and, if you'll read the thread, you'll find that Duke isn't immune from the perception problem as evidenced by the raised eyebrows over Duhon's mom's job . . . and others. But evidence of wrong-doing? Nope.

Chalmers? Nothing. Nada. Innuendo.

But hey, you got me on this Townsend thing. Until you brought it up, I'd never heard of him. You seem to be saying that Townsend was on Bozeman's staff, Bozeman got nailed, therefore Townsend is dirty. Let me look into this a bit because it's new to me. But your track record so far isn't impressing me so I'll remain skeptical.

I'll get back to you.

[dw0827]

Oh yea, Chicago, the NCAA "institutional control" problems you cited were regarding and because of the football team . . . not Self and the basketball team. But hey, when painting with a broad brush . . . .

[airowe]

Thanks for the background info Jason. The Henrys are a shady bunch, this one and done rule is bad for the college side of college basketball.

On a side note, maybe I am misunderstanding the "amateur" part of being a student-athlete but doesn't accepting a paid contract from a professional sports team effectively cancel out your amateur status? Aren't you then considered a professional athlete?

This question popped into my head when I heard about NCSU QB Russell Wilson signing a minor league baseball contract recently. Wasn't Jeremy Bloom, the old Colorado football player not allowed to ski professionally? I'm sure there are other examples I'm forgetting here. Can anyone enlighten me here?

[BD80]

... Want to know how committed to college they are?...
--Jason "the folks who say Bill Self is clean... what do you think of him getting in bed with the Henry family?" Evans


What is the over/under on the TOTAL number of classes attended by the Henry brothers combined in the second semester at KU?




I'm thinking 1/2.




I'll take the under.

[crimsonandblue]

CJ Henry was a stud basketball recruit in 2005 who chose to play profesional baseball instead. He signed with super-agent Scott Boras and was drafted in the middle of the first round of the MLB draft by the NY Yankees.

Henry was a SS and declared that he would be in pinstripes in less than 2 years. He said that he would play OF if Derek Jeter would not move off of SS, but some felt he was implying that Jeter should be moved to make room for him.

Henry signed with the Yankees for a $1.6 million signing bonus. The contract included a stipulation stating that the Yankees would pay his college tuition if he attended college.

Henry struggled in the minor leagues. He batted in the mid-200s every season and was dealt to the Philadelphia Phillies in 2006 as part of the deal for Bobby Abreau. He batted less than .200 in one season with the Phillies low-A farm team and was released by Philadelphia. He re-signed with the Yankees but again struggled in low-minor league ball. That is when he decided it was time to get back to basketball.

Though CJ had not played organized basketball in several years, plenty of teams came calling both because he had been a very good player but also because his family made it clear that CJ and Xavier would be a package deal. CJ injured his foot last year, so he never played a game for Memphis, but he claims he is actually better than Xavier. He is a 23-year-old freshman.

CJ and Xavier will spend one year in college, showing off their skills, before heading to the NBA (Xavier) or perhaps Europe (CJ-- no one knows how good he is). Want to know how committed to college they are? In this article (http://www.kansas.com/sports/story/870972.html) about the fact that they are working out on their own and not with the Kansas team this summer, read the following exchange:



Pity they did not go to Kentucky... this family was made for Coach Cal.

--Jason "the folks who say Bill Self is clean... what do you think of him getting in bed with the Henry family?" Evans

Carl Henry and his ex-wife both played for Kansas. Carl is apparently a goof and way too much of a talker, but he's also just a dorky dad.

Other than them being completely unable to make a decision and talking way way too much to the press, I have zero issues with recruiting the Henrys. The kids want to play pro ball and aren't really interested in school. Oh, the horror.

As for the rest of this stuff in this thread about Kansas, I don't think there's any question that Self works up to the line in terms of recruiting rules. I don't think he's dirty. I don't think he's a saint. I think he's a college basketball coach.

Townsend is pretty much clean as a whistle (the Seattle piece was a hatchet job with many facts wrong). The Tupper/Longstreet piece was total sour grapes from an Illini homer "journalist" sick of Self taking Chicagoland kids away from Illinois. But whatever.

2008 National Champions. Lose all five starters and 7 of the top 8 scorers and win the Big XII and make the elite eight in 2009 (up 5 with three minutes left on Michigan State and couldn't pull it out). I'll take Self even with the limited baggage. You guys enjoy your two guard nine face up power forward approach.

[crimsonandblue]

Some weird stuff, there, Chicago.

Longstreet and Collins. "Remember Anthony Longstreet's involvement in Sherron Collins recruitments?" Well, as I understand it, Longstreet was Collins' high school coach so it comes as no surprise to me that he was involvement with his player's recruitment process. The article you link sounds like one reporter's sour grapes because Collins didn't go to Illinois like he was supposed to . . . went elsewhere so the reporter think something must be funny about it all. Weak. Even the reporter says "I’m not accusing anyone because I have no proof of misbehavior. But I am always uncomfortable when outside influences seem to make the recruiting decision rather than the player himself. And one can’t help wonder why that outside influence felt so compelled to dictate the young man’s decision."

What a joke. "Outside influences?" The recruiting process is nothing but outside influences. Big deal. When a recruit goes somewhere other than the "presumed" school, it is evidence of wrongdoing? Laugh out loud.

Longstreet and Collins? Nothing. Nada. Innuendo.

Jackson. The booster who soiled this kid was working his magic back in the fall of 2002 when, GASP, Roy Williams was the coach of KU. So now you want to pin this on Self? After an investigation, it was determined that Self wasn't involved and knew nothing about it. Hey, what about Roy? But Self?

Jackson? Nothing. Nada. Innuendo.

Chalmers. This was the subject of a thread some time ago and there is no sense repeating it here. Look it up. Chalmers was and is qualified to do the job he has. This boils down to a matter of perception and, if you'll read the thread, you'll find that Duke isn't immune from the perception problem as evidenced by the raised eyebrows over Duhon's mom's job . . . and others. But evidence of wrong-doing? Nope.

Chalmers? Nothing. Nada. Innuendo.

But hey, you got me on this Townsend thing. Until you brought it up, I'd never heard of him. You seem to be saying that Townsend was on Bozeman's staff, Bozeman got nailed, therefore Townsend is dirty. Let me look into this a bit because it's new to me. But your track record so far isn't impressing me so I'll remain skeptical.

I'll get back to you.

Bozeman got busted for recruiting violations. Townsend was an administrative staff member who could not recruit. Next.

ETA: I should add that you're being overly defensive. A lot of the stuff above is pushing limits of hoops and in the case of Darnell Jackson, fouling things up. Jackson had a "family friend" of several years, who was a Kansas booster, drive him and his mom to a number of Kansas games from Oklahoma City. He also provided them lodging on occasion in connection with those trips. The booster befriended the Jackson family when Darnell was in his mid-teens, so they thought, supposedly, that this cured any issue with providing the additional benefits. They were wrong and the athletic department should have looked into this, both under Roy and Self. The fact is, there's a red flag raised when a kid living 5+ hours away is at your games on a regular basis. So, that's the Darnell thing. It was a booster, but should have been caught by the AD, Roy and Self.

I stand by the earlier statement that the Longstreet/Collins thing was ridiculous homer sour grapes.

Chalmers committed months before the position Chalmers took opened up. Manning took a regular assistant's role when another assistant coach left (to take another job - Jankovic at Illinois State) and that opened up the "Basketball Operations" gig. Say what you want, we hired a player's dad. Quid Pro Quo? Who knows. And the NCAA is at least starting to examine these deals (see e.g. Hackett at USC). Again, pushing the envelope.

Anyway, moving on...

[sagegrouse]

On a side note, maybe I am misunderstanding the "amateur" part of being a student-athlete but doesn't accepting a paid contract from a professional sports team effectively cancel out your amateur status? Aren't you then considered a professional athlete?



It used to be that any dollars paid for athletic performance DQed one as an amateur. But that is so Avery Brundige.

At Duke, e.g., Trajan Langdon was not on an athletic scholly at Duke but his tuition and other expenses were paid by the San Diego Padres, who drafted him in the 6th round of the 1994 baseball draft. The story I heard was that on a visit to Duke as a HS senior, he and his Dad were playing catch somewhere on campus (Wash Duke?), in preparation for his HS baseball season, where he was a pitcher and infielder. He was spotted by a MLB scout and drafted that year as a hitter but had minimal success in the low minors.

His college expenses were paid by the Padres.

sagegrouse

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Thanks for the background info Jason. The Henrys are a shady bunch, this one and done rule is bad for the college side of college basketball.

On a side note, maybe I am misunderstanding the "amateur" part of being a student-athlete but doesn't accepting a paid contract from a professional sports team effectively cancel out your amateur status? Aren't you then considered a professional athlete?

This question popped into my head when I heard about NCSU QB Russell Wilson signing a minor league baseball contract recently. Wasn't Jeremy Bloom, the old Colorado football player not allowed to ski professionally? I'm sure there are other examples I'm forgetting here. Can anyone enlighten me here?
Trajan Langdon signed a baseball contract, but played college basketball.

[BD80]

...
On a side note, maybe I am misunderstanding the "amateur" part of being a student-athlete but doesn't accepting a paid contract from a professional sports team effectively cancel out your amateur status? Aren't you then considered a professional athlete?

This question popped into my head when I heard about NCSU QB Russell Wilson signing a minor league baseball contract recently. Wasn't Jeremy Bloom, the old Colorado football player not allowed to ski professionally? I'm sure there are other examples I'm forgetting here. Can anyone enlighten me here?

I believe what put Bloom out of bounds was the fund raising he conducted to ski competitively. Receiving endorsement money took him outside the definition of NCAA amateur status.

[crimsonandblue]

I believe what put Bloom out of bounds was the fund raising he conducted to ski competitively. Receiving endorsement money took him outside the definition of NCAA amateur status.

Right. Which is a ridiculous distinction, but whatever. CJ Henry will be arriving at KU in his Range Rover and Bloom was forced out of college football. Sounds fair.

[dw0827]

I'm not trying to be defensive about Self or KU. I'm not a KU fan. At all. Yea, I sent two daughters through the place, but . . .

But I try to have a sense of fairness about things. I got started on this because someone said that Self isn't clean. Fine. Show me. So I ask "What did he do?" And all I get is a bunch of garbage that shows absolutely nothing.

So Self should have known and Roy should have known. So are we now to suggest that Roy isn't clean? He's dirty and runs a dirty program. I don't think so. Same with Self. Is he an angel? I doubt it. Who is? But is he dirty? Nope. Does he run a clean program? Yep. Is he a really good if not great coach? Yep.

So why tear him down? Jealous of his success?

I also get tired of people tearing Roy down . . . although nobody says he's dirty.

UNC is an arch-rival. KU is a rival. Fine. But when they have success, there is no need to denigrate their success. Congratulate them and move on without jealousy or sour grapes. But no, it seems that we need to diminish them . . . as if that makes us bigger, better, more powerful, smarter . . .

. . . when it actually makes us small and petty. It's demeaning and it cheapens the level of discourse on this site.

So stop with Cal. Stop with Self. Stop with Kentucky. Enough.

[crimsonandblue]

Well, I am a Kansas fan and I think that both Roy and Self are generally clean, but also foul up on occasion (most do). Roy was mostly responsible for the hoops-related issues in the NCAA investigation. He was the one who initially recruited Darnell Jackson and okayed booster grad gifts to players. And no, I don't consider Roy dirty. A lying scoundrel, sure. But a clean lying scoundrel.

Actually, the biggest gripe I'd have with this thread is any notion that the Henrys are dirty. I don't care if they end up at Kentucky or go to Europe or whatever. The kids don't much like school and want to make a lot of money. Duke may not get a lot of that, but that describes probably 50% of the kids at KU. Other than being flip-flopping goofballs, the Henrys haven't done a thing really wrong and they've certainly done nothing that would make them "dirty."

[JasonEvans]

The kids don't much like school and want to make a lot of money. Duke may not get a lot of that, but that describes probably 50% of the kids at KU. Other than being flip-flopping goofballs, the Henrys haven't done a thing really wrong and they've certainly done nothing that would make them "dirty."

1) I 100% agree that college basketball is full of kids who have no interest in the academics. It is a sad reality and is my main objection to 1-and-done. The NCAA and NBA PA need to look long and hard at this rule and make a change. 1-and-done is bad.

2) The Henry's are not dirty. Folks, they don't need to be dirty. CJ signed a $1.6 million dollar baseball contract a couple years ago. The family may have done some stupid stuff with that money, but I would be stunned if they threw it all away. They are still quite well-off, I bet, and are not picking schools based on $1000 handshakes or booster payoffs. Xavier and probably CJ will be making a ton of loot in the NBA or Europe next year anyway.

3) I love C&B's description of Bill Self as, "working up to the line" in recruiting. I think that is a quite accurate statement. He has either not done or not been caught doing anything illegal yet. Still, I don't think anyone will be all that shocked if Kansas does end up with some NCAA investigations/violations in the next few years. Those are the waters that Self is fishing in. He's producing some fabulous results, but he is in dangerous waters. Worth noting that a heck of a lot of other top schools are in the same place.

--Jason "I am glad that this conversation -- though heated -- has remained mostly civil. Props people... lets keep it that way" Evans

[Chicago 1995]

Oh yea, Chicago, the NCAA "institutional control" problems you cited were regarding and because of the football team . . . not Self and the basketball team. But hey, when painting with a broad brush . . . .

Why did they take a basketball scholarship away then? Hmmmm.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2623000

I thought it was well documented that the booster payments to graduating KU athletes were to basketball players. Again, Roy was responsible for that as was Self, but that doesn't mean that Self's clean in that debacle. It happened until well after Self was at KU.

You can choose to take Self's side if you want in this discussion. That's fine. There's nothing illegal about him hiring Kurtis Townsend to land the Stewarts and CJ Giles, despite Townsend's connections to the Todd Bozeman scandal, but when you hire someone like that, you lose the right to become indignant when people ask questions about your integrity. You can defend the hiring of Mario Chalmers' dad, but even you have to admit that it both skirts the bounds of legality *and* again creates a perception of impropriety. When you wade in that muck, you can't be upset if people think you are dirty. I don't know if Self's dirty or not and I don't care all that much. I just think he's not a guy that anyone should be getting up on a high horse about. I don't know if *any* college coaches are clean enough in this regard to justify your outrage, but I know that there are enough questions about Self that he surely doesn't.

Couple of other notes:

Self was recruiting Darnell Jackson when he was at Illinois. Foisting that problem solely on deputydawg eight miles down the road, as crimsonandblue admitted, isn't exactly fair.

Maybe it's because I live up here, but there were comments behind the scenes from day one that Longstreet was on the take in Collins recruitment. Day one. The odd, sudden commitment and Longstreet's comments didn't do anything to fight the perception he was crooked.

[crimsonandblue]

Why did they take a basketball scholarship away then? Hmmmm.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2623000

I thought it was well documented that the booster payments to graduating KU athletes were to basketball players. Again, Roy was responsible for that as was Self, but that doesn't mean that Self's clean in that debacle. It happened until well after Self was at KU.

You can choose to take Self's side if you want in this discussion. That's fine. There's nothing illegal about him hiring Kurtis Townsend to land the Stewarts and CJ Giles, despite Townsend's connections to the Todd Bozeman scandal, but when you hire someone like that, you lose the right to become indignant when people ask questions about your integrity. You can defend the hiring of Mario Chalmers' dad, but even you have to admit that it both skirts the bounds of legality *and* again creates a perception of impropriety. When you wade in that muck, you can't be upset if people think you are dirty. I don't know if Self's dirty or not and I don't care all that much. I just think he's not a guy that anyone should be getting up on a high horse about. I don't know if *any* college coaches are clean enough in this regard to justify your outrage, but I know that there are enough questions about Self that he surely doesn't.

Couple of other notes:

Self was recruiting Darnell Jackson when he was at Illinois. Foisting that problem solely on deputydawg eight miles down the road, as crimsonandblue admitted, isn't exactly fair.

Maybe it's because I live up here, but there were comments behind the scenes from day one that Longstreet was on the take in Collins recruitment. Day one. The odd, sudden commitment and Longstreet's comments didn't do anything to fight the perception he was crooked.

Huh? Why would Self's recruitment of Darnell while at Illinois have any relevance? The sum total of impropriety related to Darnell was a booster driving him to games at Kansas and providing him with lodging in connection with those trips. Do you think Self knew about that while at Illinois? Makes no nevermind about the eventual willful blindness once he arrived on the scene, but Darnell also wasn't a bad kid, so it's just odd you'd raise that point.

Anyway, the Townsend thing is a joke. The Longstreet thing is a joke. And I don't think the booster graduation gifts thing happened on Self's watch. ETA: Your own link says "that under former men's basketball coach Roy Williams, 'three representatives of the University's athletic interests' provided cash and clothing to graduating players who had exhausted their eligibility."

Saying Townsend was hired to get Giles and Rod Stewart is ridiculous. He was hired because he had recruiting ties in the northwest, including Ranier Beach. I know Duke often hires from within, but most schools hire assistants for their expertise and recruiting connections. Townsend is still on staff and has been a very good recruiter of a number of additional players (Elijah Johnson from Vegas). And as I noted before, while at Cal, Townsend was an admin staffer who could not recruit, so tying him to Bozeman's recruiting issues seems odd.

But again, KU did some stuff wrong and Self pushes the envelope at times (and the Wall bump incident is not even remotely close to pushing the envelope - it's nearly universal). But I'm very happy he's the coach at Kansas.

[dw0827]

3) I love C&B's description of Bill Self as, "working up to the line" in recruiting. I think that is a quite accurate statement. He has either not done or not been caught doing anything illegal yet. Still, I don't think anyone will be all that shocked if Kansas does end up with some NCAA investigations/violations in the next few years. Those are the waters that Self is fishing in. He's producing some fabulous results, but he is in dangerous waters. Worth noting that a heck of a lot of other top schools are in the same place.

--Jason "I am glad that this conversation -- though heated -- has remained mostly civil. Props people... lets keep it that way" Evans

Jason, I don't get it. You say that he has either not done or not been caught doing anything illegal yet. Well, it is also absolutely true that Coach K has either not done or not been caught doing anything illegal yet. But you wouldn't be shocked if KU ends up with violations? Based upon what? Keep in mind that Coach K is fishing in the same recruiting waters as Self. Dangerous water. So will you be shocked if Duke ends up with violations?

The hypocrisy just kills me. The innuendo. Around here a lot of people marvel at the job Quinn did at Missouri and all the nonsense and violations that went on and they just KNOW deep in their bones that he learned it all at the knee of Coach K. And they just know that Coach K is dirty and just hasn't been caught yet. How else could he have been so successful and gotten so many good players to go to Duke?

And when Chalmers and his dad is brought up, they laugh and recall Duhon's mom and her job.

And I dutifully defend Duke and Coach K because I know that he isn't dirty and I know that the program is clean.

But KU? Jason, Self hasn't been caught doing anything wrong. Even you admit it. Well, he did bump into Wall and say "hi" at a game during a period of no contact. Just as Collins showed up at a Wall game when he shouldn't have.

By the way, Self is producing fabulous results with or without big time talent. The guy can flat out coach. And I say this grudgingly. Try being a Duke fan around here . . . you think UNC fans are weird? Try KU fans.

[Chicago 1995]

Huh? Why would Self's recruitment of Darnell while at Illinois have any relevance? The sum total of impropriety related to Darnell was a booster driving him to games at Kansas and providing him with lodging in connection with those trips. Do you think Self knew about that while at Illinois? Makes no nevermind about the eventual willful blindness once he arrived on the scene, but Darnell also wasn't a bad kid, so it's just odd you'd raise that point.

The point is that Self knew Jackson and his family and had been pursuing him at Illinois. The relationship with the Kansas booster was something that he should have known about, or at least could have had he been looking. It wasn't like Darnell was a kid he just inherited who he'd not recruited and had no sort of a relationship with before he came to KU.


. . . The Longstreet thing is a joke. And I don't think the booster graduation gifts thing happened on Self's watch. ETA: Your own link says "that under former men's basketball coach Roy Williams, 'three representatives of the University's athletic interests' provided cash and clothing to graduating players who had exhausted their eligibility."

Again, the payments of former players continued through 2006, after Self was the head coach. There's no dispute that Roy gets the majority ownership of those payments, but Self was overseeing the program while they were going on too, and allowed the program to continue.


Anyway, the Townsend thing is a joke. . . . . Saying Townsend was hired to get Giles and Rod Stewart is ridiculous. He was hired because he had recruiting ties in the northwest, including Ranier Beach. I know Duke often hires from within, but most schools hire assistants for their expertise and recruiting connections. Townsend is still on staff and has been a very good recruiter of a number of additional players (Elijah Johnson from Vegas). And as I noted before, while at Cal, Townsend was an admin staffer who could not recruit, so tying him to Bozeman's recruiting issues seems odd.

The Longstreet thing may or may not be a joke, but brushing away Townsend like that is whistling past the graveyard.

First off, Townsend was recruiting on Bozeman's staff.

http://hurricanesports.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/070903aaa.html

Note the list of Cal players he "coached or recruited." Interestingly, his current KU bio drops "recruited" from that statement even though it was in the initial KU press release heralding Townsend's hire.

His KU bio does say he was coaching on that staff. And that staff committed such brazen and serious recruiting violations that the head coach was given a show cause ruling and effectively banned from college basketball. Maybe Townsend was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe he was doing everything and Todd Bozeman was solely at fault. It's possible.

As for Townsend's recruiting of Giles, when Townsend was at USC, he recruited the Stewarts and got a commitment from CJ Giles. He then took at job at Miami, where Giles signed a letter of intent. Townsend got canned with Perry Clark, and took the job at KU.

Amazingly enough, Giles followed to KU and the Stewarts ended up at KU as well. Shocking. I'm sure there were reasons to hire Townsend beyond Giles and the Stewarts -- like the failed hope of landing Terrence Williams -- but those three were reasons in and of themselves.


But again, KU did some stuff wrong and Self pushes the envelope at times (and the Wall bump incident is not even remotely close to pushing the envelope - it's nearly universal). But I'm very happy he's the coach at Kansas.

I agree that the Wall bump is a non issue. Every program is guilty of stuff like that. Every.

Again, I'm not saying Self is dirty, but I am saying that it is wholly fair to ask some questions given all of this stuff. You should be happy he's the coach, but you should know that there's enough of a cloud there that you shouldn't put too much faith in him.

[crimsonandblue]

The point is that Self knew Jackson and his family and had been pursuing him at Illinois. The relationship with the Kansas booster was something that he should have known about, or at least could have had he been looking. It wasn't like Darnell was a kid he just inherited who he'd not recruited and had no sort of a relationship with before he came to KU.



Again, the payments of former players continued through 2006, after Self was the head coach. There's no dispute that Roy gets the majority ownership of those payments, but Self was overseeing the program while they were going on too, and allowed the program to continue.



The Longstreet thing may or may not be a joke, but brushing away Townsend like that is whistling past the graveyard.

First off, Townsend was recruiting on Bozeman's staff.

http://hurricanesports.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/070903aaa.html

Note the list of Cal players he "coached or recruited." Interestingly, his current KU bio drops "recruited" from that statement even though it was in the initial KU press release heralding Townsend's hire.

His KU bio does say he was coaching on that staff. And that staff committed such brazen and serious recruiting violations that the head coach was given a show cause ruling and effectively banned from college basketball. Maybe Townsend was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe he was doing everything and Todd Bozeman was solely at fault. It's possible.

As for Townsend's recruiting of Giles, when Townsend was at USC, he recruited the Stewarts and got a commitment from CJ Giles. He then took at job at Miami, where Giles signed a letter of intent. Townsend got canned with Perry Clark, and took the job at KU.

Amazingly enough, Giles followed to KU and the Stewarts ended up at KU as well. Shocking. I'm sure there were reasons to hire Townsend beyond Giles and the Stewarts -- like the failed hope of landing Terrence Williams -- but those three were reasons in and of themselves.



I agree that the Wall bump is a non issue. Every program is guilty of stuff like that. Every.

Again, I'm not saying Self is dirty, but I am saying that it is wholly fair to ask some questions given all of this stuff. You should be happy he's the coach, but you should know that there's enough of a cloud there that you shouldn't put too much faith in him.

Good grief, you've got me running around.

I don't have the full NCAA report, but the Kansas self-report (http://www.kuathletics.com/genrel/071505aan.html)that was the basis of the probation and penalties on grad gifts cited to years 2000-2003 and focused on three boosters. The NCAA outline talks about discovery in 2004 (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?key=/ncaa/ncaa/ncaa+news/ncaa+news+online/2006/division+i/infractions+case+university+of+kansas+-+10-23-06+ncaa+news), so I have no idea where you come up with these payments continuing through 2006. Considering the report was on infractions from 2002 to 2005, I think you're making stuff up.

As for Townsend, he was not recruiting on Bozeman's staff. Again, you're making stuff up based on bragadocio on a bio. From an article stemming from the Seattle whining linked to earlier in this thread:

Townsend showed the Journal-World a letter written in 1998 on his behalf from Cal AD John Kasser. The letter said Townsend had nothing to do with NCAA violations committed by former Cal coach Todd Bozeman.

"I never was investigated at Cal. I was a restricted-earnings coach and couldn't recruit," Townsend said. (http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2004/jun/12/townsend_happy_to/)

Townsend had recruited Giles for two years. He committed to Miami. Perry Clark then got fired and the kid backed out of his commitment to Miami. Townsend had a great relationship with Giles. Giles' father had played at KU. Both landed at KU. I guess I don't see the issue. Rod Stewart then transferred from USC. He had a great relationship with Townsend from his recruitment at USC. He transferred to KU and rarely played. Again, what is it you think assistant coaches do? They build relationships and recruit players.

I have no idea if Townsend is dirty. But tying him to Bozeman when he couldn't recruit and was then retained by Braun after Bozeman left and saying that he managed to get players to come to his school when he changed jobs doesn't scream issue for me.

[JasonEvans]

I just read an interesting article on Yahoo (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jn-kansashenry070109&prov=yhoo&type=lgns) about the Henrys going to Kansas. The author seems to think this may be subtraction by addition.


How will Xavier Henry fit in with his new teammates? Will he whine and pout when he doesn’t get the ball? Or will he grit his teeth and work harder to get open?

How will Xavier handle Self’s infamous “boot camp” or being bossed around and barked at by (Senior PG Sherron) Collins? Will he respect authority or walk out of practice?

What about Carl Henry, who has been the biggest problem of them all, will he bash Self – or other players – in the media when C.J. is riding the bench? Or will he learn to shut his mouth and trust a coaching staff that has won five straight Big 12 titles while continuing to send players to the pros?

--Jason "should be an interesting soap opera ;) " Evans

[JG Nothing]

I just read an interesting article on Yahoo (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jn-kansashenry070109&prov=yhoo&type=lgns) about the Henrys going to Kansas. The author seems to think this may be subtraction by addition.

--Jason "should be an interesting soap opera ;) " Evans

Here is a thought: Carl Henry may be a problem, but at least he is involved in his sons' lives and still married to their mother. I mean seriously. In this day and age, that is actually a noteworthy accomplishment.

[MChambers]

Jason, I don't get it. You say that he has either not done or not been caught doing anything illegal yet. Well, it is also absolutely true that Coach K has either not done or not been caught doing anything illegal yet. But you wouldn't be shocked if KU ends up with violations? Based upon what? Keep in mind that Coach K is fishing in the same recruiting waters as Self. Dangerous water. So will you be shocked if Duke ends up with violations?

The hypocrisy just kills me. The innuendo. Around here a lot of people marvel at the job Quinn did at Missouri and all the nonsense and violations that went on and they just KNOW deep in their bones that he learned it all at the knee of Coach K. And they just know that Coach K is dirty and just hasn't been caught yet. How else could he have been so successful and gotten so many good players to go to Duke?

And when Chalmers and his dad is brought up, they laugh and recall Duhon's mom and her job.

And I dutifully defend Duke and Coach K because I know that he isn't dirty and I know that the program is clean.

But KU? Jason, Self hasn't been caught doing anything wrong. Even you admit it. Well, he did bump into Wall and say "hi" at a game during a period of no contact. Just as Collins showed up at a Wall game when he shouldn't have.

By the way, Self is producing fabulous results with or without big time talent. The guy can flat out coach. And I say this grudgingly. Try being a Duke fan around here . . . you think UNC fans are weird? Try KU fans.

dw0827, I agree with most of your point in this thread, but my memory of the reports on the Self contact with Wall was that it wasn't at all inadvertent. DBR's posts suggest that there are of course two version of the story:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=26543

If the reporter's version is correct, then I don't think you can fairly compare this to Chris Collins' violation.

[crimsonandblue]

Here is a thought: Carl Henry may be a problem, but at least he is involved in his sons' lives and still married to their mother. I mean seriously. In this day and age, that is actually a noteworthy accomplishment.

True, other than the whole their being divorced for five years (http://www.kansascity.com/166/story/1293180-p2.html). But they both do seem very involved in their kids' lives.



dw0827, I agree with most of your point in this thread, but my memory of the reports on the Self contact with Wall was that it wasn't at all inadvertent. DBR's posts suggest that there are of course two version of the story:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=26543

If the reporter's version is correct, then I don't think you can fairly compare this to Chris Collins' violation.

I agree with the bolded portion of your post. There is an interpretation that allows Self to bump into Wall. There is no way in which Collins' presence was permitted during the dead period. So, you're right. You can't fairly compare the Self bump, which is ubiquitous, to the Collins violation, which is completely impermissible. Well, I guess you can compare them, in that, in the final analysis, neither is of any note.

[dw0827]

Yep, there are always two versions of the truth. Generally, I add both versions, divide by 2, and get a rough approximation of the truth. Even if the worst case is true, then Self went to a game during the evaluation period (which he is allowed to do), ran into Wall (also allowed), and said hi (also allowed by my understanding of the rules). But then he may have committed the evil act. According to the reporter, he then said "Johnny. Great win man. You played really well." Wall says "Thanks." Self then compounds his egregious act of evil by then saying "I'm not supposed to be talking to you, and you know that, but I just wanted to tell you that was a great win." End of conversation.

That's the reporter's story. I assume you're referring to Allen Vaughn from the Springfield News-Leader.

Regarding the incident, Self essentially agrees with the report and even agrees with the basic content of the quote although he isn't sure it is word-for-word accurate. Self says well, maybe that was a violation, let's look at it and get a ruling. He doesn't think it rose to the level of being a substantive conversation. Anyway, Self suggests that Wall approached him and not the other way around. Who knows? Add and divide by 2.

Collins? True, different situation. Went to a game to watch Wall when, apparently, he wasn't supposed to. There was a thread about the incident on DBR where some people said that Collins should have known better and others said he may have mixed up dates and the whole thing was much ado about nothing.

I equate the two incidents . . . much ado about nothing.

The two incidents are minor minor minor and what Self did may in fact be a violation (as was Collins') by Self's own admission . . . . but not the sort of thing someone should highlight when trying to paint Self as "dirty."

[JG Nothing]

True, other than the whole their being divorced for five years (http://www.kansascity.com/166/story/1293180-p2.html).

Ha. Well, there you go. I will resist further comment to avoid being directed to the public policy board.