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Dukeford
06-28-2009, 09:51 PM
On the current sports front page, yahoo has Laettner listed as the no. 2 biggest NBA bust of all time.

I know we all know this already, but for his first 7 seasons, Laettner averaged 17 points and 8 rebounds per year. Plus, in his 13th season, his salary was 3 times more than his rookie season. So somebody didn't think he was the 2nd worst bust of all time.

CameronBornAndBred
06-28-2009, 10:00 PM
Most writers are lauding Indiana for picking Hansbrough, because they say while he won't be a star, he'll have longevity. You could easily say the same thing about Laettner's career. To be fair to Yahoo, they call the Pacer's "losers" for the Psycho T pick.

dukelifer
06-28-2009, 10:05 PM
On the current sports front page, yahoo has Laettner listed as the no. 2 biggest NBA bust of all time.

I know we all know this already, but for his first 7 seasons, Laettner averaged 17 points and 8 rebounds per year. Plus, in his 13th season, his salary was 3 times more than his rookie season. So somebody didn't think he was the 2nd worst bust of all time.
That is ridiculous- he was an All Star one year. You cannot be a bust and an All star. Kwame is a bust, Darko is a bust, Frederik Weiss was a bust but Laettner was no bust - no possible way,

COYS
06-28-2009, 10:13 PM
That is ridiculous- he was an All Star one year. You cannot be a bust and an All star. Kwame is a bust, Darko is a bust, Frederik Weiss was a bust but Laettner was no bust - no possible way,

Yeah, this is just to get a rise out of people. I guess they just figure that the hype surrounding Christian meant that he should have been Michael Jordan's better-shade-of-blue foil or something. Anything less is silly. Plus, Laettener suffered a few injuries that took away some of his athleticism and he dropped off. Anyway, I wouldn't put to much stock in this.

Now, if hansbrough is out of the league in four years, I wonder what people will say about him? I guess he just wasn't picked high enough to be a bust of epic proportions (and actually, I don't think he'll be out of the league in four years, I'm just speculating.)

moonpie23
06-29-2009, 09:21 AM
i, for one, do not think hans will be a bust. I think he's gonna surprise folks...

miramar
06-29-2009, 10:32 AM
His career salary was $61,485,000. All of a sudden I want to be a bust too.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/laettch01.html

-jk
06-29-2009, 11:02 AM
His career salary was $61,485,000. All of a sudden I want to be a bust too.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/laettch01.html

Let's see:

All-Rookie 92-93
All-Star 96-97

Per game over 13 seasons:
13.3 points
6.9 rebounds
2.7 assists.
47% FG
82% FT

Perhaps he wasn't a perennial all-star, but he certainly wasn't a bust. And never quite the same after the tendon.

-jk

Billy Dat
06-29-2009, 11:30 AM
His career salary was $61,485,000. All of a sudden I want to be a bust too.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/laettch01.html

Thanks for supplying this link....the career earnings info on this site is incredible....I just did a couple of quick searches and the results are mind boggling..

Michael Jordan's career salary earnings were $93MM while Pippen made $109MM...Shaq has made $250MM...Garnett $240MM...at least those guys are all time greats...you'd be astounded by some of the high end outliers....I guess all it takes is one or two horrendous general managers...Tim Thomas - $84MM....Steph Marbury - $130MM....Chris Webber - $176MM. I didn't look up all our guys but Grant seems to have the title at $125MM and counting.

HaveFunExpectToWin
06-29-2009, 11:31 AM
I tried to find this article, but all I found was a Forbes article (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ys-forbesdraftpicks062409&prov=yhoo&type=lgns) about what big bust Shelden is and Bobby Hurley was. The author then mentions Danny Ferry and JJ and says the Bobcats made a bad pick because Henderson played at Duke.


The list of over-hyped, underachieving Dukies is long, from Danny Ferry in 1989 (No. 2 overall) to Bobby Hurley in 1993 (No. 7) to Williams and J.J. Reddick (No. 3) in 2006.

For some reason, I don't find this argument very compelling.

Tom B.
06-29-2009, 12:03 PM
Perhaps he wasn't a perennial all-star, but he certainly wasn't a bust. And never quite the same after the tendon.



So true. Things seemed to be looking up for Laettner before that injury. He had gotten out of Minnesota (where he put up decent numbers, but never really seemed to mesh with the organization) and landed on an Atlanta team that had a good coach (Lenny Wilkens) and looked to be moving in the right direction. He had a great year in 1996-97 and made the All-Star team. Then he blew out his Achilles tendon after the next season, got traded, missed almost an entire year, and was never really the same.

I'll always wish he could've hung on for one more season with Miami at the end of his career. Then he could've retired with an NBA Championship ring, on a team that would have featured the first three players taken in the 1992 NBA Draft (Shaq, Mourning and Laettner).

Devilsfan
06-29-2009, 12:06 PM
Hanstravel will capture this distinction soon, imho.

dukeimac
06-29-2009, 12:35 PM
I think the interpretation here is what is the meaning of "bust?"

The guys listed appear to be guys who came out of college and were suppose to lead a team or two to an NBA title.

I think Christian was one of those guys coming out of college that many people thought he would lead multiple teams to multiple championship games. I believe that is why they list him as a bust.

Stats or salaries are not an factor here.

Azdukefan
06-29-2009, 12:58 PM
If I am reading dukiemac correct, he is saying that based on expectations Laettner was an NBA bust. A few weeks back I made a similar comment and stick to it. While Laettner was undoubtedly the best Dukie ever, he did not meet the expectations he had coming into the association. This is really no knock on him in my mind because I personally value what one does in college over the NBA. Christian was an NCAA great and an average NBA guy. Sometimes the truth hurts.

Matches
06-29-2009, 01:00 PM
Now, if hansbrough is out of the league in four years, I wonder what people will say about him?

Won't he be about 48 years old in 4 years? :eek: I'm not sure how much longevity one can really have in the NBA if you don't enter the league until your mid-30's. :D

sagegrouse
06-29-2009, 01:08 PM
I think Christian was one of those guys coming out of college that many people thought he would lead multiple teams to multiple championship games. I believe that is why they list him as a bust.



My memory is different from yours. Laettner was drafted THIRD not first, and the pick was actually booed by fans in Minnesota.

If you assume that great players are effective for at least ten years, then that means that at any point in time there are at least 20 #1 and #2 draft picks in the league playing at a high level. Which means, if I do the math and logic correctly, that only one-half of these dudes would win an NBA champioship -- fewer if some (like Shaq) are hogs and win multiple championships, perhaps more if a bunch of #1 and #2 are on the same team. Then why, for goodness sakes, should a #3 pick be assumed "by many people" to "lead multiple teams to multiple championship games."

Jerry West once said that winning NBA championships was often a matter of having multiple number one picks -- not first-rounders, but the best players in the draft. And of course, a couple of his LA Lakers teams had Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor and West. And later, as GM, he had Magic and Kareem.

sagegrouse

dukelifer
06-29-2009, 02:02 PM
I think the interpretation here is what is the meaning of "bust?"

The guys listed appear to be guys who came out of college and were suppose to lead a team or two to an NBA title.

I think Christian was one of those guys coming out of college that many people thought he would lead multiple teams to multiple championship games. I believe that is why they list him as a bust.

Stats or salaries are not an factor here.

A title? That is a pretty high bar- amazingly high. Lets look at the top picks who played in college since '91 who led their teams to a championship, shall we ?

Larry Johnson- Bust
Shaq- no bust
Webber- bust
Robinson- no bust
Joe Smith - bust
Iverson- bust
Duncan- no bust
Olowokandi- super bust
Brand - bust
Martin- bust
Bogut - bust
Oden - bust
Rose - bust

So only Shaq, Robinson and Duncan were not busts although Robinson had Duncan- so technically he did not lead the team. Pretty high bar. If you put in the high schoolers and non-us guys Kwame Brown, Lebron. Howard, Ming, and Bargnani- they are all busts as well with this bar.

Even if you look at this group

Kwame, Olowokandi, Bargnani, Smith have to be ahead of Laettner -

Matches
06-29-2009, 03:03 PM
Robinson only averaged 8 mpg on the '05 Spurs, and that was the only one of their championships for which he was present. He's slightly more important than Adam Morrison was to the '09 Lakers, but not much.

So yeah - pretty sweeping definition of "bust". (It would also mean that Stockton and Malone were pretty big "busts"). Laettner had a nice NBA carrer - he only shows up on lists like this because he played for Duke.

miramar
06-29-2009, 03:54 PM
Thanks for supplying this link....the career earnings info on this site is incredible....I just did a couple of quick searches and the results are mind boggling..

Michael Jordan's career salary earnings were $93MM while Pippen made $109MM...Shaq has made $250MM...Garnett $240MM...at least those guys are all time greats...you'd be astounded by some of the high end outliers....I guess all it takes is one or two horrendous general managers...Tim Thomas - $84MM....Steph Marbury - $130MM....Chris Webber - $176MM. I didn't look up all our guys but Grant seems to have the title at $125MM and counting.

On the one hand, these totals make you understand why some of these guys are in such a hurry to get to the NBA. On the other, the good ones are going to make so much money anyway that you would think that some of the more sensible ones (without family cash flow problems, of course) would stay around and enjoy their college experience. I have always thought that, for example, Mike Dunleavy's senior year would be worth more than an extra year in the NBA, but I could be wrong.

Billy Dat
06-29-2009, 05:35 PM
On the one hand, these totals make you understand why some of these guys are in such a hurry to get to the NBA. On the other, the good ones are going to make so much money anyway that you would think that some of the more sensible ones (without family cash flow problems, of course) would stay around and enjoy their college experience. I have always thought that, for example, Mike Dunleavy's senior year would be worth more than an extra year in the NBA, but I could be wrong.

The amounts we are talking about are too staggering to take the chance. Even though one would assume that Dunleavy or Gs parents would take care of them financially, you never know. With the threat of anything derailing that paycheck, I can't see how they can be expected to stay. In fact, had McRoberts been smart, he'd have left after 1 year when he was a projected lottery pick with tons of "upside".

Son of Mojo
06-29-2009, 08:26 PM
In my battles with my unc fan co-workers, Christian's name always comes up and they love to bring up NBA success (along with other Devils success or struggles). I like to see Devils do well in the league, but I don't live & die on it. Until Christian's injury, he was much better than an average player and had been an all star. He never caught a break in Minnesota; they complained when he scored too much & didn't pass.....then he'd start passing & they'd complain he didn't shoot enough--how can you win? He had a good thing in Atlanta but it was hard to get shots when Steve Smith would touch the ball.......guy never met a shot he didn't like. After his injury I would say he did fall into the "average" zone but before that he certainly did well on the court.

dukemsu
06-29-2009, 11:54 PM
let's not feed the trolls, like the clown who wrote this. Just another easy article to write.

Personally, I think we should start a UNC Bust Awareness campaign as a counter, led by the Cookie Monster. That's a bust.

No one will pick up on it, but's it our duty to get the word out. Seriously, the Duke Bust theory is the laziest kind of sports journalism there is, next to Steroids Hurt Baseball. Just as many Duke guys have become solid pros as those who haven't the last 10 years, and don't think for a second that JWill wouldn't have been right up there save for the bike accident.

Over the last 10 years, Duke's put as many good pros into the league as anyone.

dukemsu

jipops
06-30-2009, 08:37 AM
Let's see:

All-Rookie 92-93
All-Star 96-97

Per game over 13 seasons:
13.3 points
6.9 rebounds
2.7 assists.
47% FG
82% FT

Perhaps he wasn't a perennial all-star, but he certainly wasn't a bust. And never quite the same after the tendon.

-jk

Pre-tendon injury Laettner was averaging close to 17ppg. Don't think you'll ever find another player in the history of the nba being labeled a bust with those kind of numbers. Hardly Kwame-esque.

slower
06-30-2009, 09:18 AM
Robinson only averaged 8 mpg on the '05 Spurs, and that was the only one of their championships for which he was present. He's slightly more important than Adam Morrison was to the '09 Lakers, but not much.

So yeah - pretty sweeping definition of "bust". (It would also mean that Stockton and Malone were pretty big "busts"). Laettner had a nice NBA carrer - he only shows up on lists like this because he played for Duke.

Robinson averaged 15.6 PPG and 9.9 RPG during the 17 games of the Spurs' 1999 championship run and had similar regular season numbers.

CDu
06-30-2009, 09:31 AM
Robinson only averaged 8 mpg on the '05 Spurs, and that was the only one of their championships for which he was present. He's slightly more important than Adam Morrison was to the '09 Lakers, but not much.

So yeah - pretty sweeping definition of "bust". (It would also mean that Stockton and Malone were pretty big "busts"). Laettner had a nice NBA carrer - he only shows up on lists like this because he played for Duke.

I'm not sure to which Robinson you are referring, but David Robinson retired in 2003. He was on two of the Spurs' championship teams (1999 and 2003).

Robinson was a very prominent part of both of those championship teams, averaging 15.8 ppg, 10 rpg, and 2.5 bpg. And in 2003, he averaged 8.5 ppg, 8 rpg, and 1.7 bpg while playing 26 mpg and taking the defensive pressure off of Duncan.

I'd argue that those contributions are much more than slightly more valuable than Morrison was to the 2009 Lakers.

sagegrouse
06-30-2009, 09:41 AM
I'm not sure to which Robinson you are referring, but David Robinson retired in 2003. He was on two of the Spurs' championship teams (1999 and 2003).

Robinson was a very prominent part of both of those championship teams, averaging 15.8 ppg, 10 rpg, and 2.5 bpg. And in 2003, he averaged 8.5 ppg, 8 rpg, and 1.7 bpg while playing 26 mpg and taking the defensive pressure off of Duncan.

I'd argue that those contributions are much more than slightly more valuable than Morrison was to the 2009 Lakers.

Reference is to Glenn "Big Dog" Robinson, the #1 pick in the 1994 draft ahead of Grant Hill. The Big Dog played nine games during the season for the 2005 Spurs and 13 more in the playoffs. Robinson apparently retired after that season.

sagegrouse

miramar
06-30-2009, 09:45 AM
In fact, had McRoberts been smart, he'd have left after 1 year when he was a projected lottery pick with tons of "upside".

That's a very valid point. I guess we can call that the Terence Morris principle, which any highly regarded recruit would ignore at his own risk.

BTW, this may be the first time that we have seen the noun McRoberts and that adjective used in the same sentence, but you were obviously making a counterfactual statement so it makes perfect sense.

dukeimac
06-30-2009, 12:41 PM
Do you really want to go there?

How many Duke players have won an NBA title? One - Danny Ferry if I'm correct and he only won one, very late in his career.

UNC - not sure how many but just a little taste...

Micheal Jordan won 6 with the Bulls.
James Worthy won 3 with the Lakers.
Rick Fox won 3 with the Lakers.
Scott Williams won 3 with the Bulls (seriously - that guy?).

I really like Coach K and the Duke program. I have always liked the fact that Coach recruits the college player and not the pro player, that is why he was one of the latest coach to have a kid jump early to the pros.

When coming out of college, there are not many other guys people would have bet more money on winning a ring than Christian. I believe, back when they came out of college, people would have bet more money on Christian winning a ring than Jordan.

It is unfortunate Chirstian had an injury and that might be the issue with Brand but I believe they will turn out to be very good people as have or will all the other Duke players. I'm not that sure UNC players have or will turn out to be as good of people. We should focus on that.

CDu
06-30-2009, 12:47 PM
Do you really want to go there?

How many Duke players have won an NBA title? One - Danny Ferry if I'm correct and he only won one, very late in his career.

UNC - not sure how many but just a little taste...

Micheal Jordan won 6 with the Bulls.
James Worthy won 3 with the Lakers.
Rick Fox won 3 with the Lakers.
Scott Williams won 3 with the Bulls (seriously - that guy?).

I really like Coach K and the Duke program. I have always liked the fact that Coach recruits the college player and not the pro player, that is why he was one of the latest coach to have a kid jump early to the pros.

When coming out of college, there are not many other guys people would have bet more money on winning a ring than Christian. I believe, back when they came out of college, people would have bet more money on Christian winning a ring than Jordan.

It is unfortunate Chirstian had an injury and that might be the issue with Brand but I believe they will turn out to be very good people as have or will all the other Duke players. I'm not that sure UNC players have or will turn out to be as good of people. We should focus on that.

You don't need to win a title to not be a bust. Similarly, you can be a bust and have won a title. Scott Williams was a pretty poor NBA player who happened to sit on the bench for three title teams. Those titles don't validate him. Similarly, Karl Malone were two of the greatest PF to ever play the game. The lack of championships don't make them a bust.

Every great college team has their share of busts, and that includes UNC. The point is that Laettner wasn't a bust. He wasn't Shaq or Jordan, but few are. He was a very productive player.

Michael Olowokandi was a bust. Kwame Brown has been a bust. Darko Milicic has been a bust (despite getting a ring). Laettner was not a bust.

arnie
06-30-2009, 12:52 PM
Do you really want to go there?

How many Duke players have won an NBA title? One - Danny Ferry if I'm correct and he only won one, very late in his career.

UNC - not sure how many but just a little taste...

Micheal Jordan won 6 with the Bulls.
James Worthy won 3 with the Lakers.
Rick Fox won 3 with the Lakers.
Scott Williams won 3 with the Bulls (seriously - that guy?).

I really like Coach K and the Duke program. I have always liked the fact that Coach recruits the college player and not the pro player, that is why he was one of the latest coach to have a kid jump early to the pros.

When coming out of college, there are not many other guys people would have bet more money on winning a ring than Christian. I believe, back when they came out of college, people would have bet more money on Christian winning a ring than Jordan.

It is unfortunate Chirstian had an injury and that might be the issue with Brand but I believe they will turn out to be very good people as have or will all the other Duke players. I'm not that sure UNC players have or will turn out to be as good of people. We should focus on that.

If you meant that Ferry was the only "K" coached player to win a title, that may be true. However, other former Duke players, specifically, Jack Marin, won NBA titles. Marin was also a key player on that team.

sagegrouse
06-30-2009, 01:35 PM
If you meant that Ferry was the only "K" coached player to win a title, that may be true. However, other former Duke players, specifically, Jack Marin, won NBA titles. Marin was also a key player on that team.

Actually, you are thinking of Jeff Mullins, who was with the Warriors on their 1975 championship team. A long-time starter, Jeff was coming off an injury in 1974-1975 and played a key reserve role on that team.

sagegrouse

dukeimac
06-30-2009, 05:21 PM
Michael Olowokandi was a bust. Kwame Brown has been a bust. Darko Milicic has been a bust (despite getting a ring). Laettner was not a bust.

LOL, seriously you would have bet money on Olo, Kwame, Darko, I don't think so. If so, I have a bridge to sell you, cheap! ROF BMG LMAO

Give me a name you would have bet some BIG bucks on to win a ring that did not. Christian is considered a bust on that list because people would have bet BIG bucks on him winning some NBA rings. And that is what is meant by "Bust", who would you have bet money on to win a ring and then would have gone broke because they didn't.

I liked that team of Christian, Grant, Bobby etc. They were good and still are the best team to repeat in my era. All this sounds like is people walking around with Duke blue sun glasses on...

CDu
06-30-2009, 06:27 PM
LOL, seriously you would have bet money on Olo, Kwame, Darko, I don't think so. If so, I have a bridge to sell you, cheap! ROF BMG LMAO

Give me a name you would have bet some BIG bucks on to win a ring that did not. Christian is considered a bust on that list because people would have bet BIG bucks on him winning some NBA rings. And that is what is meant by "Bust", who would you have bet money on to win a ring and then would have gone broke because they didn't.

I liked that team of Christian, Grant, Bobby etc. They were good and still are the best team to repeat in my era. All this sounds like is people walking around with Duke blue sun glasses on...

You continue to miss the point. I wouldn't have bet money on those three winning a title. In fact, I wouldn't bet money that ANY player will win a ring prior to the draft. Winning a ring is a TERRIBLE measure of who is a bust or not. And I doubt that many people were betting huge money on Laettner winning NBA rings.

Being a bust means not being a very good player when that player was drafted high. Thus, Olowokandi, Milicic, and Brown are much bigger busts. It has nothing to do with rings.

Just because you have some very narrow-minded notion of what is or isn't a bust doesn't make it accurate. Laettner was drafted third in the 1992 NBA draft, and he turned out to be the third best player from that draft. That's not a bust.

shoutingncu
06-30-2009, 07:50 PM
Over the last 10 years, Duke's put as many good pros into the league as anyone.


Not to argue for the stereotype, but has Duke only been good for ten years? That's kind of like saying that Tyler didn't get away with travelling because he got called for it once.

And when comparing to UNC, is it any wonder that national champion Blue Devils from those years (or should-have-been champions from '99) are doing better in the pros than the 8 - 20 Tar Heels of the same period?

Also, while I do agree that blogs like the orginal reference are meant to just stir things up, the author does start off with the following:

"Most of the players on this list are remembered for either being great in college (Christian Laettner) or for being NBA busts (Pervis Ellison)."

Personally, I think it's actually saying that Christian was not a bust, but that he is remembered for college glory and nothing more.

dukemsu
06-30-2009, 10:08 PM
[QUOTE=dukeimac;302045]Do you really want to go there?
QUOTE]

My original point, which I posted in one of the Duke Hatred Tsumani threads, was that the press (nationals in particular) simply does not in my recollection(seriously, I don't remember a single one) mention highly drafted Heels who do not produce in the NBA. And the Cookie Monster is the perfect example. It's not like he hasn't been visible. He sits behind the Heel bench constantly. Seems to me some snarky Four Letter employee would have wondered precisely why the Monster wasn't with the Bobcats on that particular evening. I can go down the list: McCants, and to a lesser degree Felton haven't set the league aflame either. I could continue, but I think that's rather pointless.

Am I whining? Sure. Guilty as charged. However, evaluating G's potential against Hurley's situation and suggesting they are somehow correlated because of the color of shirt they wore between ages 18-21 is so ridiculous that I felt it necessary to say something. It's the apex of lazy journalism.

dukemsu

dukeimac
07-01-2009, 10:32 AM
Well, I agree that the measure of a player should not be if they won a ring or not, BUT that is what the article was using as a measuring stick. You and I don't want to use that as a measuring stick but he did. Thus, using that as a measure I think you could consider Christian a bust. So I'm not missing any point.

Next, any current player that hasn't won a ring isn't a bust until they retire, according to this guys measuring stick, so considering any current player a bust isn't what was being used as a measuring stick, that includes guys like Felton.

Christian was drafted after Shaq and Morning. I remember that draft well. Both those other guys did not have the college career Christian did (stats) and talk was that they would eventually develop into a pro and get a ring but Christian was tabbed as the one who would get a ring first. Of the three, he was tabbed as the leader of a team and the other two as a part of the team. He was the most ready to contribute. He was a scorer, outside and inside, he was a rebounder (had the size) and played very good defense, plus was considered very smart.

I think the problem here is most of you don't remember, maybe were not old enough, the days of Bobby and Christian. Bobby was another guy that people believed could lead a team but his life threatening injury didn't allow for that and he only played a half a year.

Indoor66
07-01-2009, 01:08 PM
Well, I agree that the measure of a player should not be if they won a ring or not, BUT that is what the article was using as a measuring stick. You and I don't want to use that as a measuring stick but he did. Thus, using that as a measure I think you could consider Christian a bust. So I'm not missing any point.

Next, any current player that hasn't won a ring isn't a bust until they retire, according to this guys measuring stick, so considering any current player a bust isn't what was being used as a measuring stick, that includes guys like Felton.

Christian was drafted after Shaq and Morning. I remember that draft well. Both those other guys did not have the college career Christian did (stats) and talk was that they would eventually develop into a pro and get a ring but Christian was tabbed as the one who would get a ring first. Of the three, he was tabbed as the leader of a team and the other two as a part of the team. He was the most ready to contribute. He was a scorer, outside and inside, he was a rebounder (had the size) and played very good defense, plus was considered very smart.

I think the problem here is most of you don't remember, maybe were not old enough, the days of Bobby and Christian. Bobby was another guy that people believed could lead a team but his life threatening injury didn't allow for that and he only played a half a year.

Christian also had a severe achilles tendon injury that very much hampered his career. It was not career ending, but it affected his lateral quickness, jumping ability and general mobility. He never returned to his pre-injury level. Prior to the injury - an All Star, after, far less.

CDu
07-01-2009, 01:25 PM
Well, I agree that the measure of a player should not be if they won a ring or not, BUT that is what the article was using as a measuring stick. You and I don't want to use that as a measuring stick but he did. Thus, using that as a measure I think you could consider Christian a bust. So I'm not missing any point.

And I'm saying it is a terrible measuring stick, and thus a terrible article. If you agree that it's a terrible measuring stick and that Laettner was not a bust, then we don't disagree.


Christian was drafted after Shaq and Morning. I remember that draft well. Both those other guys did not have the college career Christian did (stats) and talk was that they would eventually develop into a pro and get a ring but Christian was tabbed as the one who would get a ring first. Of the three, he was tabbed as the leader of a team and the other two as a part of the team. He was the most ready to contribute. He was a scorer, outside and inside, he was a rebounder (had the size) and played very good defense, plus was considered very smart.

I think the problem here is most of you don't remember, maybe were not old enough, the days of Bobby and Christian. Bobby was another guy that people believed could lead a team but his life threatening injury didn't allow for that and he only played a half a year.

I'm plenty old enough to remember those players in college. Those were amazing teams. I'm also plenty old enough to know that the experts had higher expectations of Shaq and Mourning as pros than they did for Laettner. Laettner's college career was unquestionably better than Shaq and Zo, but college success is often not the best predictor of pro talent. I can guarantee that the experts did not predict that Laettner was the most likely to lead his team to a title.

You may have believed that Laettner would get a ring first, but the experts (and I'd argue the general masses as well) did not agree. But the general consensus was that he was a great college player and likely to be a star in the NBA, but NOT likely to able to lead a team to a title in the pros. It didn't help that he had the Danny Ferry comparisons either. Conversely, Shaq was unanimously considered to be a force (on both ends of the court) and Zo was considered to be an immediate force defensively with a developing offensive game to complement LJ in Charlotte.

Now, if you want to talk about busts, Ferry was a bust. But because of the crazy logic of having a ring, he's excluded from the list. Silly.

huied
07-02-2009, 09:32 AM
The NY Daily News also puts together a list of busts, and Laettner is not included. At least some people don't subscribe to the notion that an all-star can still be considered a bust.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/galleries/nbas_biggest_draft_busts/nbas_biggest_draft_busts.html#ph0

accfanfrom1970
07-02-2009, 09:51 AM
Speaking of busts, look at the list of picks after Laettner:

4 Jimmy Jackson (SG)
5 LaPhonso Ellis (PF)
6 Tom Gugliotta (PF)
7 Walt Williams (SF)
8 Todd Day (SG)
9 Clarence Weatherspoon (PF)
10 Adam Keefe (PF)
11 Robert Horry (SF)
12 Harold Miner (SG)
13 Bryant Stith (SG)
14 Malik Sealy (SF)
15 Anthony Peeler (SG)
16 Randy Woods (PG)
17 Doug Christie (SG)
18 Tracy Murray (SF)
19 Don MacLean (PF)
20 Hubert Davis (SG)
21 Jon Barry (SG)
22 Oliver Miller (C)
23 Lee Mayberry (PG)
24 Latrell Sprewell (SG)
25 Elmore Spencer (C)
26 Dave Johnson (SF)
27 Byron Houston (PF)

Christian had a phenomenal career in comparison.

FerryFor50
07-03-2009, 11:14 AM
Speaking of busts, look at the list of picks after Laettner:

4 Jimmy Jackson (SG)
5 LaPhonso Ellis (PF)
6 Tom Gugliotta (PF)
7 Walt Williams (SF)
8 Todd Day (SG)
9 Clarence Weatherspoon (PF)
10 Adam Keefe (PF)
11 Robert Horry (SF)
12 Harold Miner (SG)
13 Bryant Stith (SG)
14 Malik Sealy (SF)
15 Anthony Peeler (SG)
16 Randy Woods (PG)
17 Doug Christie (SG)
18 Tracy Murray (SF)
19 Don MacLean (PF)
20 Hubert Davis (SG)
21 Jon Barry (SG)
22 Oliver Miller (C)
23 Lee Mayberry (PG)
24 Latrell Sprewell (SG)
25 Elmore Spencer (C)
26 Dave Johnson (SF)
27 Byron Houston (PF)

Christian had a phenomenal career in comparison.

Man that was a ratty draft...

But if we're using rings as a barometer for greatness, Robert Horry at pick #11 was the GOAT.

mapei
07-03-2009, 11:41 AM
I don't think winning a title is a good measure of an individual's basketball value or performance - a lot can go into why some great players haven't won championships, but you would still take them on your team in a heartbeat.

I also don't think being successful in the NBA is much of an indication of how good a college program is. I look at coach K and Knight and think their records are phenomenal in part because they didn't have the kind of dominating talent that translates to NBA dominance.

That said, I always hope that a top-10 pick from Duke, or an all-American that falls just outside the top 10 NBA picks, like JJ, Trajan, Shane or Shel (forget exactly where Shane and Shel were picked), becomes more than a journeyman player in the NBA. Ferry and Laettner were a couple that did not quite live up to my hopes for them. That doesn't make them unique, or all-time busts, but I don't think it's misplaced to be disappointed.

I also wish some Dukies would join the ranks of big-time, all-time NBA stars like Jordan and arguably Worthy were, or Ewing and Zo were for the other team I follow. Grant could well have become that guy, but injuries kept it from happening. Elton, although discounted a bit because he was only a Dukie for two years, had that potential as well, but it doesn't look like it will happen for him, either. JWill, who knows what might have been?

So Duke has very solid pros in the NBA, Carlos and Shane coming to mind immediately. I think that, in numbers, we have slightly more than any other team on active NBA rosters. But we have never had that big-time franchise player with longevity that Grant might have been. I do wish it were otherwise.

FerryFor50
07-03-2009, 11:47 AM
I don't think winning a title is a good measure of an individual's basketball value or performance - a lot can go into why some great players haven't won championships, but you would still take them on your team in a heartbeat.

I also don't think being successful in the NBA is much of an indication of how good a college program is. I look at coach K and Knight and think their records are phenomenal in part because they didn't have the kind of dominating talent that translates to NBA dominance.

That said, I always hope that a top-10 pick from Duke, or an all-American that falls just outside the top 10 NBA picks, like JJ, Trajan, Shane or Shel (forget exactly where Shane and Shel were picked), becomes more than a journeyman player in the NBA. Ferry and Laettner were a couple that did not quite live up to my hopes for them. That doesn't make them unique, or all-time busts, but I don't think it's misplaced to be disappointed.

I also wish some Dukies would join the ranks of big-time, all-time NBA stars like Jordan and arguably Worthy were, or Ewing and Zo were for the other team I follow. Grant could well have become that guy, but injuries kept it from happening. Elton, although discounted a bit because he was only a Dukie for two years, had that potential as well, but it doesn't look like it will happen for him, either. JWill, who knows what might have been?

So Duke has very solid pros in the NBA, Carlos and Shane coming to mind immediately. I think that, in numbers, we have slightly more than any other team on active NBA rosters. But we have never had that big-time franchise player with longevity that Grant might have been. I do wish it were otherwise.

What sucks is that UNC fans will ALWAYS hang their hats on Jordan - rightfully so, but he hasn't played in nearly a decade. Meanwhile, Duke-committed Kobe Bryant is making his case for being in that same class, but never attended Duke.

All schools have their share of players that didn't pan out as hoped, and in recent years, UNC has had a lion's share of them. Sean May, Ray Felton, Marvin Williams, Brendan Wright.... plus the numerous others since Jordan that either became solid pros like Rasheed Wallace or Jerry Stackhouse, or flops like JR Reid and Serge Zwikker.

RelativeWays
07-03-2009, 01:12 PM
Felton and Williams are pretty solid pros so far. Wright has the same issue as JJ did with Orlando, he didn't have a solid place in the rotation at GS but certainly has potential. A trade could do him wonders (I think he just was traded). I think JJ is now earning a spot with the Magic rotation so if his offense gets consistent, he could be a solid role player, nothing wrong with that. EweNC fans would be loathe to admit it but they'd love for Beaker to have an NBA career like Laettner's. 13 years, 12ppg career avg, all star, all rookie, not too bad.

Dukeford
07-05-2009, 04:06 PM
That said, I always hope that a top-10 pick from Duke, or an all-American that falls just outside the top 10 NBA picks, like JJ, Trajan, Shane or Shel (forget exactly where Shane and Shel were picked), becomes more than a journeyman player in the NBA.

Shelden was actaully picked at no. 5.
Weighing that in, I would say he's coming perilously close to being a very big bust.

SupaDave
07-06-2009, 12:51 AM
What sucks is that UNC fans will ALWAYS hang their hats on Jordan - rightfully so, but he hasn't played in nearly a decade. Meanwhile, Duke-committed Kobe Bryant is making his case for being in that same class, but never attended Duke.

To my knowledge, not only did Coach K not recruit Kobe Bryant but he was never given an offer. Kobe was on his way to the league in the 11th grade.

Not just that, but hey, UNC fans have a lot to hang their hats on. I'm not even gonna bother going down that list - you could literally argue with an informed Carolina fan all day and they could have tons of valid points.

CDu
07-08-2009, 11:52 AM
Shelden was actaully picked at no. 5.
Weighing that in, I would say he's coming perilously close to being a very big bust.

Battier and Williams were both top-6 picks (Williams 5 and Battier 6), though both were taken in some of the weaker drafts in recent memory (at least in terms of the lottery). Battier certainly hasn't been a bust though, even though some potentially better players went after him (Joe Johnson, Richard Jefferson, Gerald Wallace, Tony Parker, and Gilbert Arenas). Williams, as you said, is getting close.

Edouble
07-08-2009, 06:31 PM
To my knowledge, not only did Coach K not recruit Kobe Bryant but he was never given an offer. Kobe was on his way to the league in the 11th grade.

This is interesting and deserving of a full thread in it's own right.

I've always had this impression too. The big name I remember from Kobe's class was Shaheen Holloway. I remember being very disappointed that we missed on him. I had a friend who was a manager on the team in 95-96 and he never mentioned Kobe when we talked recruiting. Not that he had the last word, but he was very knowledgable.

Following Kobe's recruitment, I remember that he was going to go to Cincinatti if he had chosen not to go to the NBA. I remember very specifically Melvin Levitt saying that Kobe would not even start at UC when Kobe declared for the draft.

Now Kobe is all Duke, Duke, Duke. Weird.

DukieInKansas
07-08-2009, 07:02 PM
This is interesting and deserving of a full thread in it's own right.

I've always had this impression too. The big name I remember from Kobe's class was Shaheen Holloway. I remember being very disappointed that we missed on him. I had a friend who was a manager on the team in 95-96 and he never mentioned Kobe when we talked recruiting. Not that he had the last word, but he was very knowledgable.

Following Kobe's recruitment, I remember that he was going to go to Cincinatti if he had chosen not to go to the NBA. I remember very specifically Melvin Levitt saying that Kobe would not even start at UC when Kobe declared for the draft.

Now Kobe is all Duke, Duke, Duke. Weird.

Apparently, with age comes wisdom.

Mal
07-09-2009, 12:53 PM
Christian was drafted after Shaq and Morning. I remember that draft well. Both those other guys did not have the college career Christian did (stats) and talk was that they would eventually develop into a pro and get a ring but Christian was tabbed as the one who would get a ring first. Of the three, he was tabbed as the leader of a team and the other two as a part of the team. He was the most ready to contribute. He was a scorer, outside and inside, he was a rebounder (had the size) and played very good defense, plus was considered very smart.

I'll echo the points CDu makes, but I think your memory may be off here, as well. Perhaps that was the thinking prior to the draft, but there certainly was no talk by anyone that Laettner would be winning an NBA title within any forseeable future at the time he was actually drafted. Why? Because he went to the Timberwolves. A woeful expansion team that finished the '91-'92 season at a staggering 15-67, a full 12 games behind the next worst squad in the entire league. Christian was banished to Siberia to languish on by far the worst team in the league and quite possibly one of the worst teams in NBA history. That they drafted third that year (continuing their unbelievably bad string of luck in the draft lottery - they've been in the lottery at least 10 times and IIRC have yet to improve their position once) was a crime against humanity. He was their best player from the moment he first stepped onto the court at the Target Center, and worked very hard trying to make them halfway respectable before he wisely bailed for Atlanta. Drawing the sort of attention he did as a rookie and still producing the way he did for such an abysmal team (and a franchise that, with the benefit of hindsight, is an absolute trainwreck of mismanagement) should, in a just world, have innoculated Laettner from ever even being debated as a potential "bust" in the NBA. I mean, who did the T-Wolves draft to complement him? Isaiah Rider (at 5 when they should by all rights have been at 2 and been able to take Penny Hardaway). Then Donyell Marshall. The guy got screwed, then went to a better team after having 4 years wasted, improved that team and his game, and then got hurt and was never the same. That's pretty star-crossed if you ask me.

Dukeford
07-09-2009, 10:07 PM
I'll echo the points CDu makes, but I think your memory may be off here, as well. Perhaps that was the thinking prior to the draft, but there certainly was no talk by anyone that Laettner would be winning an NBA title within any forseeable future at the time he was actually drafted. Why? Because he went to the Timberwolves. A woeful expansion team that finished the '91-'92 season at a staggering 15-67, a full 12 games behind the next worst squad in the entire league. Christian was banished to Siberia to languish on by far the worst team in the league and quite possibly one of the worst teams in NBA history. That they drafted third that year (continuing their unbelievably bad string of luck in the draft lottery - they've been in the lottery at least 10 times and IIRC have yet to improve their position once) was a crime against humanity. He was their best player from the moment he first stepped onto the court at the Target Center, and worked very hard trying to make them halfway respectable before he wisely bailed for Atlanta. Drawing the sort of attention he did as a rookie and still producing the way he did for such an abysmal team (and a franchise that, with the benefit of hindsight, is an absolute trainwreck of mismanagement) should, in a just world, have innoculated Laettner from ever even being debated as a potential "bust" in the NBA. I mean, who did the T-Wolves draft to complement him? Isaiah Rider (at 5 when they should by all rights have been at 2 and been able to take Penny Hardaway). Then Donyell Marshall. The guy got screwed, then went to a better team after having 4 years wasted, improved that team and his game, and then got hurt and was never the same. That's pretty star-crossed if you ask me.



I agree with above, but there is one negative I seem to recall. His last season with the T-Wolves was Garnett's first. And I think some internal conflict, and possibly jealousy, led the T-Wolves to ship Laettner out in mid-season.

sagegrouse
07-13-2009, 12:32 AM
It took two weeks, but I have assembled data to judge Christian's career against (a) others in the 1992 draft and (b) other #3 picks in other drafts.

I would be happy to build some nice HTML tables, but I don't have a clue how to do it. So here's a quick summary:

(a) In the 1992 draft Christian was no. 6 in total career Minutes but no. 4 in Points, Rebounds, and Assists. This is not out-of-line for a no. 3 pick. Shaq is no. 1 in all three categories (and still going). Alonzo Mourning was no. 2 in points and rebounds. Jimmy Jackson of Ohio State (no. 4 pick) was no. 2 in assists and no. 3 in points. Clarence Weatherspoon was no. 3 in rebounds.

(b) Compared against all 15 no. 3 picks from Michael Jordan (1984) to Raef Lafrentz (1998), Christian ranked no. 7 in points, no. 3 in rebounds, and no. 6 in assists. Clearly he is in the middle of the pack or above -- hardly a bust but a very productive NBA player. [To be sure, Grant Hill (1994) and Chauncey Billups (1997) are still going strong and Jerry Stackhouse (1985) may connect with another team after being cut by the Mavs, but all three are ahead of Christian in points anyway.]

One thing that was interesting to me, was that between Michael Jordan and Christian, the no. 3 picks did not do exceptionally well, with poorer stats overall than Laettner [except maybe Xavier McDaniel (1985)]. Maybe it is the Chris Washburn (1986) jinx. But after Christian's year, there was a run of very good players in the no. 3 position: Penny Hardaway, Grant, Stackhouse, Abdur-Rahim, and Billups.

I will be happy to post or share the data.

sagegrouse