Elliot Williams leaving

[markbdevil]

http://duke.scout.com/2/874700.html

[CameronBornAndBred]

Crap, it turned out to be true. Best of luck to Elliot and his family. I'm still assuming a relative's health is the issue.

[roywhite]

I'm disappointed as a Duke basketball fan, but wish Elliot all the best. He's a fine young man, and I respect his commitment to his family.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

Good luck Elliot. We all support your decision to stay close to your family in these tough times. We'll keep you and your family in our thoughts.

[Kedsy]

Well, this changes everything.

[NSDukeFan]

Sad to see EWill go, but you have to do what you have to do. All the best to him.
This does certainly make things more interesting for next year. We will definitely be big.

[Faison1]

My heart just dropped. What the heck?!

[CLT Devil]

wow.....

[Kedsy]

http://duke.scout.com/2/874700.html

It's interesting that in the K interview in the Chronicle on 6/15 (just 9 days ago), K said he was really excited to work with Elliot this year. So either he was blowing a smoke screen or, despite the rumors some time ago, this is a pretty new development.

[Wander]

NIT Champs!!!

(I'm kidding. Mostly.)

[watzone]

Our wishes go out to the Williams family. He has the blessings of the staff and will be greatly missed. I got the news last evening, but wanted to let Duke Sports Information post it which they are scheduled to do so today. Odd how some will try to get hits by breaking it before the SID yet they were the last to know.

[roywhite]

What I've seen from other posters on TDD is that the illness involves Elliot's mother, and that Elliot is planning to attend Memphis.

Purely speculation on my part and probably already considered---would a leave of absence for a semester/year and a return to Duke make sense?

[watzone]

Elliot will seek a waiver to play next season and will almost certainly play for Memphis. Williams had not been on campus for much of the summer due to his moms illness.

Elliot Williams To Leave Duke For Family Medical Reasons



DURHAM, N.C. – Rising sophomore Elliot Williams has decided to leave Duke University for family medical reasons, school officials announced Wednesday. He is expected to file an appeal for a waiver of the NCAA's year in residence transfer rule that would require him to sit out the 2009-10 season. Williams is seeking to transfer closer to his hometown of Memphis, Tenn., to be near his family.



“Our thoughts and prayers go out to Elliot and his family,” said head coach Mike Krzyzewski. ““We fully support him in his efforts to be closer to them during this trying time. He is a good young man with an opportunity to become an outstanding player. We wish him well as he determines his future. He will always be a part of our program and we will always be in his corner.”



Williams averaged 4.2 points and 2.3 rebounds in 34 contests a year ago. He started 11 of the final 12 games of the season as Duke claimed the 2009 ACC Championship and advanced to the Sweet Sixteen of the NCAA Tournament. The Memphis, Tenn., native had five double-figure scoring games as a freshman, including a season-high 15 points at Maryland on Feb. 25. He also posted an 11-rebound game on Nov. 11 against Georgia Southern and sparked a 101-91 Duke win over Wake Forest on Feb. 22 with a season-high four steals.

[roywhite]

Thanks for the press release and the info, watzone.

By the way, if you happen to have some really good recruiting news, don't hesitate to pass it along. We could use some encouragement. :)

[chrisheery]

Would it be fair to say that Duke Basketball is on the ropes right now? I mean, we can't catch a break. I loved Elliot and will miss him. Its too bad he can't just take a year off (or whatever amount of time he needs) and return to Duke when he feels comfortable. I'm sure we would love to have him then.

What are we going to do with only 2 guards next year?

[arnie]

The news, although not that surprising since it was strongly rumored a month or so ago, is devastating to success of the 2009/2010 team. We are one injury away from playing an entire game with one true guard (assuming he doesn't foul out!).

I don't think Singler can be expected to thrive at the 2nd guard and Kelly is way to slow to defend that position. Is there any chance we can pick up another body at this late date?

[rotogod00]

The news, although not that surprising since it was strongly rumored a month or so ago, is devastating to success of the 2009/2010 team. We are one injury away from playing an entire game with one true guard (assuming he doesn't foul out!).

I don't think Singler can be expected to thrive at the 2nd guard and Kelly is way to slow to defend that position. Is there any chance we can pick up another body at this late date?

kyle's gonna have to play a lot of 2 guard this year. not going to have a choice

[Kedsy]

The news, although not that surprising since it was strongly rumored a month or so ago, is devastating to success of the 2009/2010 team. We are one injury away from playing an entire game with one true guard (assuming he doesn't foul out!).

I don't think Singler can be expected to thrive at the 2nd guard and Kelly is way to slow to defend that position. Is there any chance we can pick up another body at this late date?

Have you seen Kelly play?

I think you're right that defense is key. If Kyle can defend opposing 2s then I don't see why he can't thrive there. Certainly there won't be too many guards who will be able to defend him. Lance can hopefully defend out there some as well, and Ryan and Olek will have to defend some wing forwards.

It is sad that Elliot has a sick relative. It is sad he's leaving Duke. But devastating to Duke basketball? I think that's overstating the case.

[beltwayBD]

NOoooo!

A big loss for Duke, and rough times for the Williams family. Best to him and his mother.

We were short handed at guard before, now this is ridiculous.

I predict we'll see a lot more of Ryan Kelly in the line up, and at least he has a perimeter game. But we definitely won't compete at the level expected up until recently (top 10 team). Just don't have the depth (guard) or experience (front court).

Wow.

[elvis14]

First, like others, I wish Elliot well and hope his family member gets well soon.

From a basketball perspective, this is tough shot for our program to take (and we have taken our share of late). All of a sudden I really want Marty back for his last year of eligibility. The number of conversations this spawns is ridiculous. I'm really bummed, but it'll be interesting to see how K handles this season.

[soccerstud2210]

this is where life outranks basketball and the progress of a college program.

ewill, best of luck. you will be missed

[UrinalCake]

I would think that there is a realistic chance Coach K will offer a scholarship to a walk-on, or possible a soccer player with high school b-ball experience, or something of that nature. We simply have to have some more bodies.

[arnie]

Have you seen Kelly play?

I think you're right that defense is key. If Kyle can defend opposing 2s then I don't see why he can't thrive there. Certainly there won't be too many guards who will be able to defend him. Lance can hopefully defend out there some as well, and Ryan and Olek will have to defend some wing forwards.

It is sad that Elliot has a sick relative. It is sad he's leaving Duke. But devastating to Duke basketball? I think that's overstating the case.

Yes I have seen Kelly play and he reminds me of Joey Beard - good skill set but not able to keep up with quicker players, and at the "2" he's gonna see a lot of those. I think devastating to the 2009/2010 team is a reasonable evaluation - we were hoping to compete for a Final 4 spot, not I don't see us any higher than middle of the ACC. I hope I am proved wrong.

[chrisheery]

No one has expressed anything other than support for Elliot. I think we are all agreed that he is doing what he has to do and his family is clearly the priority for him.

However, we can separate the discussion into another that focuses on where the basketball team is left at this point, right? While it is not as important in the scope of life, especially for Elliot and his family, it is obviously important to those of us who log on to a Duke Basketball website to discuss the team and its' prospects. So, since this is that forum, I don't think anyone should be made to feel guilty for wanting to discuss the effects of this event on Duke Basketball.

[rotogod00]

Yes I have seen Kelly play and he reminds me of Joey Beard - good skill set but not able to keep up with quicker players, and at the "2" he's gonna see a lot of those. I think devastating to the 2009/2010 team is a reasonable evaluation - we were hoping to compete for a Final 4 spot, not I don't see us any higher than middle of the ACC. I hope I am proved wrong.

i agree with you unfortunately, and i wasn't as high as you on this team before ewill's transfer. i saw us as a sweet 16 team at best. now i'm just hoping for a tourney bid actually.

[keithg]

Am I the only one who finds the logic of this perplexing. If he is in good standing at Duke, why wouldn't he just take the year off and spend significant time with his family and return to Duke the next year or later.

The committment to college basketball at the Divsion I level is very significant. The decision to play basketball, at all, is what will devour most of his free time, not where he plays it. Once the season starts your on the road half the time anyway. I would imagine the course load won't be as demanding at Memphis, though.

That being said, I wish him the best and will have him in my thoughts and his family in my prayers.

[roywhite]

No one has expressed anything other than support for Elliot. I think we are all agreed that he is doing what he has to do and his family is clearly the priority for him.

However, we can separate the discussion into another that focuses on where the basketball team is left at this point, right? While it is not as important in the scope of life, especially for Elliot and his family, it is obviously important to those of us who log on to a Duke Basketball website to discuss the team and its' prospects. So, since this is that forum, I don't think anyone should be made to feel guilty for wanting to discuss the effects of this event on Duke Basketball.

a reasonable point, chris...but see the "Starting Lineup 2009-10" thread on this page...lots of discussiion there about the basketball impact of Elliot's departure.

[Saratoga2]

I haven't been active for quite a while since not much goes on this time of year.

This news is bad for Elliott and I wish him well. It is also very bad for the program, leaving us with two scholarship guards. Coach K could probably see Pocius leaving and definitely Henderson, but this is truly a blow with Elliot. We go from thin to in trouble. Our recruiting success was not good in the area of guards so we go another year with serious issues.

Is this bad luck or are we stuck in a rut? Let us hope that coach K can do more with recruiting top notch guard talent for next year and beyond. We will need several the way things are going. If Smith stays we will have Smith and Curry as experienced guards for the following season. Dawkins is coming but will there be others?

[InSpades]

Am I the only one who finds the logic of this perplexing.

Yes.

Best of luck to Elliot. Wish the best to his family and am glad he's doing what he thinks is best.

[UrinalCake]

Am I the only one who finds the logic of this perplexing. If he is in good standing at Duke, why wouldn't he just take the year off and spend significant time with his family and return to Duke the next year or later..

Obviously none of us knows the details and so this is all just speculation, but I think there are a few possibilities:

1.) The condition of the family member in question is one that will require him to be near home for more than just one year

2.) With the influx of talent in the 2010 recruiting class he was concerned about playing time down the road (not likely)

3.) Part of him wanted to be at Memphis all along

4.) He doesn't want to take a year off from playing

On this fourth point, I wonder what will happen if the NCAA denies his appeal to circumvent the sitting-out-a-year transfer rule...

[elvis14]

Am I the only one who finds the logic of this perplexing. .

No.

Best of luck to Elliot. Wish the best to his family and am glad he's doing what he thinks is best.

[Kim*]

Congratulations, Jordan Davidson, you've just been bumped to 6th man.

[SoCalDukeFan]

transferred from UNC-CH to USC before last season and the reason given was family illness.

He was not given an exemption by the NCAA and had to sit out last season.

I have no info on the family illness and how it worked out with Stepheson being closer to home. Had he stayed at UNC-CH he would have a NC ring and next year gets to play on a probably weak team with Kevin O'Neill coaching.

Hopefully this works out better for Elliot.

SoCal

[m g]

i don't understand why so people on this board never consider the possibility of lance thomas covering guards. he's our third-smallest scholarship player and is much better equipped to cover a guard than any of our guys 6-8 and up. singler and kelly will almost never be assigned to defend a 2 with thomas on the team, even if they are playing 2-guard on offense. of course, a team with a freakishly athletic 3 and a nondescript 2 could change that, but that's the type of 2 guard that singler (see his defense against jimmy baron at hte end of the URI game) and kelly (maybe) could actually handle

thinking of thomas as a 4 or 5 on defense on this team is idiotic, and it was idiotic even before williams' decision to transfer, when he would have occaisonally defended 4's but mostly 3's. singler, zoubek, and both plumlees are all better equipped to defend big men than thomas. czyz is probably better equipped to defend bigs as well (little lateral quickness, bulkier than thomas). of course, he still probably won't see significant minutes next year unless he shows a shocking amount of improvement

[DukeCO2009]

File this one under "rumors a lot of people had heard to have legs, but the powers that be at DBR insisted wasn't true and blocked discussion of."

I really, really feel for Elliot. He's a great guy and a really special player; we're going to miss him both on and off the court.

From a basketball perspective, this is nauseating. Time to grab some last minute backcourt recruits.

[geraldsneighbor]

Tyler Smith went from Iowa to Tennessee when his Dad passed away and wasn't forced to sit out.

Elliot, I'll miss you. Good luck and hopefully your family is okay.

[UrinalCake]

i don't understand why so people on this board never consider the possibility of lance thomas covering guards.

I could see him out front in a zone defense, but not guarding a 2 one-on-one. We may need a lot of zone next year.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Am I the only one who finds the logic of this perplexing. If he is in good standing at Duke, why wouldn't he just take the year off and spend significant time with his family and return to Duke the next year or later.

We have no idea what his mother's (assuming that is the relative) condition is. Williams also would have no way of knowing what her condition might be in a year's time as well.

[PumpkinFunk]

It's always sad to see one of our players leave, but I understand why he felt like he had to do it. I hope his mother's health is fine, and I wish him the best of luck at Memphis next season.

[camion]

This hurts the basketball team, but basketball is a game and life is, well, life. I hope for the best for Elliot and his family.

[Tim1515]

Congratulations, Jordan Davidson, you've just been bumped to 6th man.

I actually believe Davidson decided not to come back for another year. Duke has 2 guards on the roster (1 of which has been hampered with injuries as a freshman and sophomore). I would expect a new walkon or 2 will be added. Time for all Duke students to get in their best basketball shape.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

I can't be angry at Elliot in this situation, but it does leave a sour taste in your mouth. I would love to hear Elliot speak about this and be open about it. I just don't understand why he doesn't take a year off from school or something, much like Kevin Coble did at Northwestern when his mom was battling cancer.
Kevin could've easily transferred to ASU or Arizona, but he stuck it out for a while and Northwestern welcomed him back with open arms after a year. There was speculation at some point that Elliot was homesick and I am not saying that he is using this as an excuse, but I don't want Elliot to be mum about this.

[The Gordog]

I know we all wish Elliot the best of luck and hope his mother (?) is able to recover. I would not root for Memphis if Johnny Dawkins himself were playing there, but I do hope Elliot is able to continue his growth as a person and a player during his time there.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Can Duke declare an emergency and ask the NCAA to grant Seth Curry eligibility?

Despite popular response, I am serious about this.

[DukeCO2009]

Can Duke declare an emergency and ask the NCAA to grant Seth Curry eligibility?

Despite popular response, I am serious about this.

There has to be some sort of loophole that would allow him to play, right?

As the above poster, I am 100% serious.

[CDu]

There has to be some sort of loophole that would allow him to play, right?

As the above poster, I am 100% serious.

I am pretty sure there's no loophole. He's not transferring due to hardship or anything. He's transferring to improve his draft stock.

It's wishful thinking to hope Curry becomes eligible. I think we need to hope instead that Coach K can work some magic with a walk-on somewhere/somehow.

[The Gordog]

Am I the only one who finds the logic of this perplexing. If he is in good standing at Duke, why wouldn't he just take the year off and spend significant time with his family and return to Duke the next year or later.

The committment to college basketball at the Divsion I level is very significant. The decision to play basketball, at all, is what will devour most of his free time, not where he plays it. Once the season starts your on the road half the time anyway. I would imagine the course load won't be as demanding at Memphis, though.

That being said, I wish him the best and will have him in my thoughts and his family in my prayers.

Nope. I agree 100%, but we don't know what pressure he may have received from his family (any of his family) on this.

If K is willing to be supportive and considers him a permanent part of the program than so will I.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

It seems like everyone is pointing to Memphis, but is it possible that he'd transfer to another TN school like Vanderbilt? Memphis isn't all that far from Nashville and Stallings recruited him heavily.

[Classof06]

There has to be some sort of loophole that would allow him to play, right?

As the above poster, I am 100% serious.

Absolutely not. There is no way the NCAA would allow Curry to play for Duke this season.

Seth Curry decided to transfer from Liberty to Duke because he felt Duke was a better situation for him. This is the exact reason the "one-year" rule was instituted by the NCAA and the same reason many state high school athletic associations have begun doing the same. Without this rule amateur players essentially become free agents (though some may argue they've already become that).

[weezie]

We've still got our seasoned vets on the floor, heck, more than most other teams can boast of. It's a tough break but don't underestimate the strength of having the most upperclassmen we've had in a while.

K will work his wizardry.

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

Do we let John and Nolan actually go hard at practice this year? Or do we only play them in games only in order to avoid injury...

[rotogod00]

Do we let John and Nolan actually go hard at practice this year? Or do we only play them in games only in order to avoid injury...

Ridiculous but oh, so valid point

[ice-9]

I could see him out front in a zone defense, but not guarding a 2 one-on-one. We may need a lot of zone next year.

100% agree. This will also have the added benefit of conserving energy for our only two guards on defense.

[dukejunkie]

Hopefully Nolan's knee and back hold up. It might be time to add another trainer.

[InSpades]

Nope. I agree 100%, but we don't know what pressure he may have received from his family (any of his family) on this.

If K is willing to be supportive and considers him a permanent part of the program than so will I.

Is it really that hard to understand? His mom is sick, he wanted to be close to her instead of hundreds of miles away. He wanted to keep playing basketball... luckily for him there's a rule in place to cover his situation and let him play next year. It's as simple as that, no?

Why would he sit out a year and then come back to Duke? Could he have done that? Sure. Should we expect him to do that? Absolutely not. Basketball is his future... why would he postpone it for a year so he could play at Duke instead of Memphis?

[dukelifer]

Do we let John and Nolan actually go hard at practice this year? Or do we only play them in games only in order to avoid injury...

I expect they will keep both in a hermetically sealed chamber and let out only for game day.

[DUKIE V(A)]

First and foremost, I am really sorry to hear about E's family situation. I hope everything works out for him and his mom (or whoever is sick).

From a basketball prespective, this really hurts. I am going to miss E-mail. He is one of my favorite Duke players and I see great things for him in the future. We will miss him on the court, but off the court things are often more important. All the best to him and his family.

[dball]

I expect they will keep both in a hermetically sealed chamber and let out only for game day.

Unlikely, as an airtight seal would defeat the purpose of protecting them for game day. :)

Maybe a softly padded room?

[NSDukeFan]

Hopefully Nolan's knee and back hold up. It might be time to add another trainer.

I hear we have an extra scholarship.

[JG Nothing]

I can't be angry at Elliot in this situation, but it does leave a sour taste in your mouth. I would love to hear Elliot speak about this and be open about it. I just don't understand why he doesn't take a year off from school or something, much like Kevin Coble did at Northwestern when his mom was battling cancer.
Kevin could've easily transferred to ASU or Arizona, but he stuck it out for a while and Northwestern welcomed him back with open arms after a year. There was speculation at some point that Elliot was homesick and I am not saying that he is using this as an excuse, but I don't want Elliot to be mum about this.

Given the circumstances, Elliot owes no one any further explanation. He has his reasons and we should respect his decision. Even mentioning that this might be due to homesickness is tacky. We should simply wish him the very best, offer our moral support, and leave it at that.

[JG Nothing]

Lance Stephenson.
Not...
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Lance-Stephenson-is-still-without-a-school-and-?urn=ncaab,172172

[SupaDave]

File this one under "rumors a lot of people had heard to have legs, but the powers that be at DBR insisted wasn't true and blocked discussion of."

Any you wonder why?

[SupaDave]

I actually believe Davidson decided not to come back for another year. Duke has 2 guards on the roster (1 of which has been hampered with injuries as a freshman and sophomore). I would expect a new walkon or 2 will be added. Time for all Duke students to get in their best basketball shape.

Davidson will be on the team.

[geraldsneighbor]

Davidson will be on the team.

In all honesty, in the November and December games he will see near 20 minutes a game.

[darkblue2769]

Man, oh man, was I dreading that the rumor could be true, and lo and behold, we are down to two guards next season... this does not sit well.

On a lighter note, maybe I can make the Duke basketball team as a walk-on! I'm not holding my breath, but hey, I can dream! I do play point guard...

*Goes outside to shoot around*

[CameronBornAndBred]

Davidson will be on the team.
"One option could have been fifth year senior Martynas Pocius, but he has already signed with an agent and will be playing professionally overseas next season. However, another fifth year senior - walkon Jordan Davidson - will return next season to provide additional backcourt manpower." From scout.com (http://bostoncollege.scout.com/a.z?s=165&p=2&c=874700)

[Scorp4me]

Many of you have asked why not just take a year off and come back. That maybe a valid point if your family member has very little time left or will perhaps recover quickly, say in a year. But that may not be the case and then you just want to spend as much time as you can with them while you got them.

As for the basketball situation I like K's recruiting, even now. Just seems he goes back and forth...no point guard, no post presense, no wing players, back to no point guard. Part of that is not under his control I guess, just want his recruiting magic more spread out. But this situation...one leaves early, one leaves for family, one leaves for the NBA early, and I'm sure I'm forgetting someone. Who could have predicted all of this!

[shoutingncu]

I love a good Duke transfer as much as the next Hole, but this is certainly not one of them.

Best wishes to Elliot and his family, and a sincere good luck to the program in what was already going to be a fascinating year.

[Kimist]

I wish the Williams family the absolute best during these trying times.

Having said that, and since this is a basketball board:

I am not so sure the NCAA will grant an exception to the one-year waiting rule. In theory their decision would perhaps not be clouded by any issues related to either Duke or Memphis. But having said that, both schools are major Division I contenders and a person playing Devil's Advocate could possibly see a potential problem there if an exception were granted.

For those with access to the facts, does the NCAA factor in the schools' program levels in any way?

My gut feeling is Williams will be sitting on the bench for the upcoming basketball season.

k

[Hancock 4 Duke]

OOH NOO! I thought Elliot was a true player the time we started recruited him. HE has always been my favorite player. Maybe I could start pulling for Memphis now? Good luck with your family elliot, we will miss you! Maybe they could sell Williams' jerseys next year?

[Kewlswim]

Enough said. :-(

GO DUKE!

[JBDuke]

For all reading this thread and considering adding a post, please resist the temptation to either become a Shrieking Howler Panic Monkey (SHPM, trademarked by Throatybeard, I believe) or to respond to the SHPMs.

Yes, this is bad news for Duke's program. EWill was a valued member of the team, and he'll be missed. We all wish the best for him and his family. But for those predicting doom and gloom, I suggest you try to gain the perspective of the summer of 1999, when Duke lost Brand, Avery, and Maggette to the draft, along with the graduation of Langdon. We added a practice player guard that summer - Andre Buckner - and played most of the year with only one true guard seeing significant minutes - and he was a freshman. However, a veteran core of great leaders (Carrawell, Battier, and James) amply supported by a sparkling group of newcomers (JWill, Boozer, and Dunleavy) went out and won yet another ACC championship and had a heck of a season. That 1999-2000 is one of my all-time favorites.

This is not the end of the world...

[ChicagoCrazy84]

I was 10 years old when in 1995, so I don't remember all that well except that Ricky Price was my favorite player. I will say though that this is quite a low point in Duke basketball.
The guy has a point when he says NAIA teams have more depth than we do. Unlucky circumstanses they may be, I do think that Coach K is done doing his 5-6 man classes backed by a 1-2 man class. I think this year I will mainly be rooting for my father's alma mater in the Pac Northwest, Kyle's brother's squad. They had an awful year last year, but should be very much improved this year.

Im sorry to be pessimistic, but this is going to be painful watching with 2 guards. I will be awaiting our 2010 class that hopefully includes Dawkins, Thornton, Curry, Knight, and Barnes. Mmmm, mmm.

[Kewlswim]

For all reading this thread and considering adding a post, please resist the temptation to either become a Shrieking Howler Panic Monkey (SHPM, trademarked by Throatybeard, I believe) or to respond to the SHPMs.

Yes, this is bad news for Duke's program. EWill was a valued member of the team, and he'll be missed. We all wish the best for him and his family. But for those predicting doom and gloom, I suggest you try to gain the perspective of the summer of 1999, when Duke lost Brand, Avery, and Maggette to the draft, along with the graduation of Langdon. We added a practice player guard that summer - Andre Buckner - and played most of the year with only one true guard seeing significant minutes - and he was a freshman. However, a veteran core of great leaders (Carrawell, Battier, and James) amply supported by a sparkling group of newcomers (JWill, Boozer, and Dunleavy) went out and won yet another ACC championship and had a heck of a season. That 1999-2000 is one of my all-time favorites.

This is not the end of the world...

Hi,

OK. Last time I suggested this I got lots of naysayers, but I believe there is more than one JUCO guard out there looking for a home. Is it too late to sign a JUCO? I like the idea because most of those guys have lots of playing experience. In California the JUCO system is really good, academically as well as athletically. It isn't like going to Harvard, but sheesh.

I am looking forward to what Uncle Mike (Krzyzewski) will do with this team. I have a feeling he will pull more than one rabbit out of a hat. I am still sad for Duke hoops and for EWill (I really liked him in a Duke uniform).

GO DUKE!

[CameronBornAndBred]

I am not so sure the NCAA will grant an exception to the one-year waiting rule. In theory their decision would perhaps not be clouded by any issues related to either Duke or Memphis. But having said that, both schools are major Division I contenders and a person playing Devil's Advocate could possibly see a potential problem there if an exception were granted.

My gut feeling is Williams will be sitting on the bench for the upcoming basketball season.


I think it will be easier for the NCAA to rule in Elliot's favor having the support of the Duke program.

[Kewlswim]

I was 10 years old when in 1995, so I don't remember all that well except that Ricky Price was my favorite player. I will say though that this is quite a low point in Duke basketball.
The guy has a point when he says NAIA teams have more depth than we do. Unlucky circumstanses they may be, I do think that Coach K is done doing his 5-6 man classes backed by a 1-2 man class. I think this year I will mainly be rooting for my father's alma mater in the Pac Northwest, Kyle's brother's squad. They had an awful year last year, but should be very much improved this year.

Im sorry to be pessimistic, but this is going to be painful watching with 2 guards. I will be awaiting our 2010 class that hopefully includes Dawkins, Thornton, Curry, Knight, and Barnes. Mmmm, mmm.

Hi,

If Duke had NO scholarship players and was manned entirely by water boys and student managers I would root for them with all my heart and passion. This is not the time to start rooting for "my father's alma mater." It is time to pull for the Devils really hard. They deserve and need our support.

I will support Duke harder than ever and will never root harder for any other team. I attended Stanford too and root for them, but not like I root for the Devils. Devils are kings and Stanford gets a courtesy pet. I do like their men's basketball coach, he is a pretty great fellow.

GO DUKE!

[NSDukeFan]

For all reading this thread and considering adding a post, please resist the temptation to either become a Shrieking Howler Panic Monkey (SHPM, trademarked by Throatybeard, I believe) or to respond to the SHPMs.

Yes, this is bad news for Duke's program. EWill was a valued member of the team, and he'll be missed. We all wish the best for him and his family. But for those predicting doom and gloom, I suggest you try to gain the perspective of the summer of 1999, when Duke lost Brand, Avery, and Maggette to the draft, along with the graduation of Langdon. We added a practice player guard that summer - Andre Buckner - and played most of the year with only one true guard seeing significant minutes - and he was a freshman. However, a veteran core of great leaders (Carrawell, Battier, and James) amply supported by a sparkling group of newcomers (JWill, Boozer, and Dunleavy) went out and won yet another ACC championship and had a heck of a season. That 1999-2000 is one of my all-time favorites.

This is not the end of the world...

You make some good points. I have definitely been a responder to some of the SHPMs and will try to keep from doing this as often. I am trying to picture a scenario where a team led by Kyle and Jon, coached by K, with Nolan, Z, Lance, MP1, MP2, Kelly, isn't a strong team next year, with some potential matchup issues with Nova, UK, KU and Michigan State. I just can't picture a Jr. AA candidate Kyle and Sr. Jon losing enough to not make the tourney and not being competitive in just about every game.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

I want to remind people what Coach K has often said during the NCAA tournament. He has said, "We don't have to be better, we just have to be better on that day." Can you imagine the shame, etc. UNC will feel next year when they lose to a team with only TWO legit guards??? It will be glorious. Bwuahhahahahahahaaaa

GTHC!!!!
GO DUKE! KEEP THE FIRES BURNING!

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

For all reading this thread and considering adding a post, please resist the temptation to either become a Shrieking Howler Panic Monkey (SHPM, trademarked by Throatybeard, I believe) or to respond to the SHPMs.

Yes, this is bad news for Duke's program. EWill was a valued member of the team, and he'll be missed. We all wish the best for him and his family. But for those predicting doom and gloom, I suggest you try to gain the perspective of the summer of 1999, when Duke lost Brand, Avery, and Maggette to the draft, along with the graduation of Langdon. We added a practice player guard that summer - Andre Buckner - and played most of the year with only one true guard seeing significant minutes - and he was a freshman. However, a veteran core of great leaders (Carrawell, Battier, and James) amply supported by a sparkling group of newcomers (JWill, Boozer, and Dunleavy) went out and won yet another ACC championship and had a heck of a season. That 1999-2000 is one of my all-time favorites.

This is not the end of the world...

Thank you for perhaps the best post on this thread.....a well worded reminder about life outside the Internet. It's summer, one of the best seasons of the year!

[bluebear]

For all reading this thread and considering adding a post, please resist the temptation to either become a Shrieking Howler Panic Monkey (SHPM, trademarked by Throatybeard, I believe) or to respond to the SHPMs.

Yes, this is bad news for Duke's program. EWill was a valued member of the team, and he'll be missed. We all wish the best for him and his family. But for those predicting doom and gloom, I suggest you try to gain the perspective of the summer of 1999, when Duke lost Brand, Avery, and Maggette to the draft, along with the graduation of Langdon. We added a practice player guard that summer - Andre Buckner - and played most of the year with only one true guard seeing significant minutes - and he was a freshman. However, a veteran core of great leaders (Carrawell, Battier, and James) amply supported by a sparkling group of newcomers (JWill, Boozer, and Dunleavy) went out and won yet another ACC championship and had a heck of a season. That 1999-2000 is one of my all-time favorites.

This is not the end of the world...

Thanks for the reminder..I forgot that that team only had J-Will as a clear guard..I went to the first 2 games at MSG and thought that we were in for a long year but all turned out well. That team had a little more guard flexibility with James, C-Will, Dunleavy and arguably a lot more talent but it is helpful to remember that Duke has been in this situation before..

[UrinalCake]

I think this year I will mainly be rooting for my father's alma mater in the Pac Northwest, Kyle's brother's squad.

So, you only root for your teams when they're good? More specifically, when you THINK they're going to be good? That is the definition of a fair-weather fan. Supporting your team no matter what makes you appreciate the successful years even more.

[fuse]

Our wishes go out to the Williams family. He has the blessings of the staff and will be greatly missed. I got the news last evening, but wanted to let Duke Sports Information post it which they are scheduled to do so today. Odd how some will try to get hits by breaking it before the SID yet they were the last to know.

Elliot-

You will be missed, but understand that your Duke family supports you. Family needs to come first, and I have a great deal of respect for you in making a difficult and courageous decision. I hope all the best for you and your family!

[CDu]

For all reading this thread and considering adding a post, please resist the temptation to either become a Shrieking Howler Panic Monkey (SHPM, trademarked by Throatybeard, I believe) or to respond to the SHPMs.

Yes, this is bad news for Duke's program. EWill was a valued member of the team, and he'll be missed. We all wish the best for him and his family. But for those predicting doom and gloom, I suggest you try to gain the perspective of the summer of 1999, when Duke lost Brand, Avery, and Maggette to the draft, along with the graduation of Langdon. We added a practice player guard that summer - Andre Buckner - and played most of the year with only one true guard seeing significant minutes - and he was a freshman. However, a veteran core of great leaders (Carrawell, Battier, and James) amply supported by a sparkling group of newcomers (JWill, Boozer, and Dunleavy) went out and won yet another ACC championship and had a heck of a season. That 1999-2000 is one of my all-time favorites.

This is not the end of the world...

I'm going to have to nitpick that example though. That team had (1) a true PG, (2) a true post presence, and (3) several appropriate options for wing players in Dunleavy (a high school guard), James, and Carrawell (not pure guards, but definitely wing players), and even Battier (who was as capable on the wing as Singler is, if not moreso).

This team does not have #1, may or may not have #2 (it remains to be seen what Zoubek and the Plumlees bring to the table there), and definitely doesn't have #3.

Don't get me wrong - it's not the end of the world by any means. Hopefully Coach K can figure out a way to make this work (or find a guy to fill the void in terms of wing depth). But I don't see the 1999-2000 team as a good comp. That 1999-2000 team had a lot more talent and a lot more balance than this team. And they had a lot more wing depth than this team.

[JBDuke]

I'm going to have to nitpick that example though. That team had (1) a true PG, (2) a true post presence, and (3) several appropriate options for wing players in Dunleavy (a high school guard), James, and Carrawell (not pure guards, but definitely wing players), and even Battier (who was as capable on the wing as Singler is, if not moreso).

This team does not have #1, may or may not have #2, and definitely doesn't have #3.

Don't get me wrong - it's not the end of the world by any means. Hopefully Coach K can figure out a way to make this work (or find a guy to fill the void in terms of wing depth). But I don't see the 1999-2000 team as a good comp. That 1999-2000 team had a lot more talent and a lot more balance than this team. And they had a lot more wing depth than this team.

But going into that season, you didn't know how your PG or your post presence were going to work out. They were freshmen! Highly regarded, yes, but still freshmen.

I maintain that LT can be as good defensively as Dunleavy was on the perimeter - not good at ball pressure, but quick enough and long enough to bother most college SGs - when either Jon or Nolan isn't out there. Between Kyle and (hopefullly) Kelly, they can handle the WF responsibilities. And while we may not have an established performer at C, Zoubek showed some promise, and has a full summer to work on his game. MP1 showed some promise as well, and his younger sibling is supposed to be quite able. I'm really not worried about our post play next year. No one has yet demonstrated great work there, but we have many options to tinker with.

[CDu]

But going into that season, you didn't know how your PG or your post presence were going to work out. They were freshmen! Highly regarded, yes, but still freshmen.

Who cares whether we knew it going into the season? We had four guard-like players on that team, all of whom were either proven ACC-caliber talent or top recruits that we fully expected to be ACC caliber. This year, we don't have that. We have two proven ACC players at guard/wing, and a guy who will be out of position but is certainly capable there.

Maybe Plumlee gives us a presence like Boozer (though I doubt it), but that doesn't address the backcourt issues.


I maintain that LT can be as good defensively as Dunleavy was on the perimeter - not good at ball pressure, but quick enough and long enough to bother most college SGs - when either Jon or Nolan isn't out there.

I think it's debatable whether or not Thomas can play as capably defensively on the wing as Dunleavy, but there's no question he's not as capable offensively. And remember that Dunleavy was the fourth wing player behind two very strong and underrated defenders in Carrawell and James (who also were pretty accomplished offensively).

That's my point. That 2000 team didn't have guys playing out of position. They had a true point guard (this team doesn't), they had three true wing players and a fourth guy capable alongside that PG (this team has only one extra wing player and two other guys capable of manning the spot).

Even if Kelly/Plumlees/Zoubek morph into a capable replica of Battier/Boozer at the 4/5 (and I'd say that's a big reach), we still lack the depth that the 2000 team had on the wings. And guard/wing depth is my biggest concern.


Between Kyle and (hopefullly) Kelly, they can handle the WF responsibilities. And while we may not have an established performer at C, Zoubek showed some promise, and has a full summer to work on his game. MP1 showed some promise as well, and his younger sibling is supposed to be quite able. I'm really not worried about our post play next year. No one has yet demonstrated great work there, but we have many options to tinker with.

I'm not sold on Kelly as a wing. Nothing I've read or seen (other than other posters' hopes) suggests he's anything other than a big man with great shooting touch and good passing skills for a big man. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see him as a wing player.

I'm not confident that post play will be a strength, but I'm less concerned about it than I am guard/wing depth. Depth on the perimeter is my biggest concern with this team, and that's saying something because the frontcourt is definitely still a question mark.

[cspan37421]

It's ironic that not long ago, we were considered perenially thin down low, and heavy on guards. Now the situation is reversed. On offense, if some of our larger guys have a good handle, it will be hard to guard their shot. On defense, yeah, we probably won't see the man-to-man as much as K might normally prefer, but we'll be OK.

I would not mind at all seeing Zoubs in the middle, backed up by a Plumlee, and some of our other bigs on the wing. I'm really sorry that E-Will can't be part of it - his defensive spark will be missed much, and offensively he could just explode to the basket. But we'll be OK, K will figure out a way to put together a winning recipe from the ingredients he has.

[mpj96]

But going into that season, you didn't know how your PG or your post presence were going to work out. They were freshmen! Highly regarded, yes, but still freshmen.

I maintain that LT can be as good defensively as Dunleavy was on the perimeter - not good at ball pressure, but quick enough and long enough to bother most college SGs - when either Jon or Nolan isn't out there. Between Kyle and (hopefullly) Kelly, they can handle the WF responsibilities. And while we may not have an established performer at C, Zoubek showed some promise, and has a full summer to work on his game. MP1 showed some promise as well, and his younger sibling is supposed to be quite able. I'm really not worried about our post play next year. No one has yet demonstrated great work there, but we have many options to tinker with.

JB, thanks for the optimism. I am going to root hard for our guys and I hope you are right.

That said, I have a hard time buying the 1999-2000 analogy as well. I just don't see any Shane Battier, Jason Williams, Mike Dunleavy or Carlos Boozer level players in our line up.

ps. Email, truly sorry to see you go but completely support your decision that family comes first. All the best to you and wish you well wherever you land. If you end up at Memphis, I'll try hard to root for you so long as you aren't playing Duke.

[Lord Ash]

Wowzers.

First off, best to EMail and the fam.

On to basketball...

Wow.

I think comparing next year to 1999-2000 is... well... a HUGE stretch. Both teams played basketball, I suppose?;)

I cannot reasonably think of any other example of something like this. Can anyone actually think of a similar situation in basketball where there were only two players for either the 1 and 2 slot or for the 4 and 5 slot?

I do wish we could get Curry to play somehow... pipe dream, I know, but...

I am VERY glad that all reports point towards Jon Scheyer being a VO2 max MONSTER who never gets tired.

This is a huge blow to next years team, and I think expectations need to be amended by some to be more realistic given the situation. When summer hit and things were still a bit in the air re: Henderson and Wall, I thought we were a surefire #1 in the ACC. With both of those options out and EMail gone too, I have to wonder if we will be able to break even in conference, what with very little ball handling ability and such a huge lack of depth in the guard slots. I also worry that they will be very tired by the end of the year.

Oh, and does anyone else think Zoubek could run the point?:)

[NSDukeFan]

JB, thanks for the optimism. I am going to root hard for our guys and I hope you are right.

That said, I have a hard time buying the 1999-2000 analogy as well. I just don't see any Shane Battier, Jason Williams, Mike Dunleavy or Carlos Boozer level players in our line up.

I see a couple for sure, hopefully at least 3, compared to freshmen Williams, Dunleavy and Boozer level players and am hoping Jr. Singler will be comparable to Jr. Battier.

I think the main point (no pun intended) though is that team had only one true guard. We will just have to use 1 guard and 2 wings for a substantial part of the season and will give up some quickness on the defensive end and will hopefully have size mismatches on the offensive end.

[Classof06]

I'm going to have to nitpick that example though. That team had (1) a true PG, (2) a true post presence, and (3) several appropriate options for wing players in Dunleavy (a high school guard), James, and Carrawell (not pure guards, but definitely wing players), and even Battier (who was as capable on the wing as Singler is, if not moreso).

This team does not have #1, may or may not have #2 (it remains to be seen what Zoubek and the Plumlees bring to the table there), and definitely doesn't have #3.

Don't get me wrong - it's not the end of the world by any means. Hopefully Coach K can figure out a way to make this work (or find a guy to fill the void in terms of wing depth). But I don't see the 1999-2000 team as a good comp. That 1999-2000 team had a lot more talent and a lot more balance than this team. And they had a lot more wing depth than this team.

Co-sign. Please do not compare this team (sans Williams) to the 1999-2000 team. Singler is about the only player off our current team that would crack the rotation on that team.

[CDu]

I see a couple for sure, hopefully at least 3, compared to freshmen Williams, Dunleavy and Boozer level players and am hoping Jr. Singler will be comparable to Jr. Battier.

I think the main point (no pun intended) though is that team had only one true guard. We will just have to use 1 guard and 2 wings for a substantial part of the season and will give up some quickness on the defensive end and will hopefully have size mismatches on the offensive end.

The problem is that while that team had only one true guard, they had four true wing players and a fifth that was capable. We have only two true wing players and one or two that are capable. And that team had a true point guard, which takes even more pressure off the wings.

So while may be accurate to say that the team had only one true guard, it's inaccurate to say that it's a comparable situation. And it's definitely inaccurate to compare the situations and conclude that due to the similarities this year will be okay.

I'm not saying that this team can't possibly be successful. I'm just saying that, if this team IS successful, it will be in no way similar to what happened with that team.

That team was very well balanced, and nobody was being forced to play out of position. On this team, nearly everyone will be playing out of position. And that team was deeper on the wing than this team.

[Sandman]

Regardless of how this season turns out, I will live and die with the Devils every game - and will truly believe we can win every game, until it's over, whether we are 9-22 or 22-9.

I have a question. Can D2 players transfer to D1 schools and play immediately, or do they have to sit out a year? If they are immediately eligible, perhaps Coach could find a guard there.

[heyman25]

For all reading this thread and considering adding a post, please resist the temptation to either become a Shrieking Howler Panic Monkey (SHPM, trademarked by Throatybeard, I believe) or to respond to the SHPMs.

Yes, this is bad news for Duke's program. EWill was a valued member of the team, and he'll be missed. We all wish the best for him and his family. But for those predicting doom and gloom, I suggest you try to gain the perspective of the summer of 1999, when Duke lost Brand, Avery, and Maggette to the draft, along with the graduation of Langdon. We added a practice player guard that summer - Andre Buckner - and played most of the year with only one true guard seeing significant minutes - and he was a freshman. However, a veteran core of great leaders (Carrawell, Battier, and James) amply supported by a sparkling group of newcomers (JWill, Boozer, and Dunleavy) went out and won yet another ACC championship and had a heck of a season. That 1999-2000 is one of my all-time favorites.

This is not the end of the world...
I am not living in the past. Duke's misguided recruiting has lead the team that will have 2 guards that will be playing 40 minutes. They can not get injured or get into foul trouble. Davidson may help, but unless this team plays perfect basketball it will be a difficult season.We will get some wins, but with only 2 guards we will be vulnerable to this lack of depth.

[The1Bluedevil]

For all reading this thread and considering adding a post, please resist the temptation to either become a Shrieking Howler Panic Monkey (SHPM, trademarked by Throatybeard, I believe) or to respond to the SHPMs.

Yes, this is bad news for Duke's program. EWill was a valued member of the team, and he'll be missed. We all wish the best for him and his family. But for those predicting doom and gloom, I suggest you try to gain the perspective of the summer of 1999, when Duke lost Brand, Avery, and Maggette to the draft, along with the graduation of Langdon. We added a practice player guard that summer - Andre Buckner - and played most of the year with only one true guard seeing significant minutes - and he was a freshman. However, a veteran core of great leaders (Carrawell, Battier, and James) amply supported by a sparkling group of newcomers (JWill, Boozer, and Dunleavy) went out and won yet another ACC championship and had a heck of a season. That 1999-2000 is one of my all-time favorites.

This is not the end of the world...

While the similarities are there, this incoming class in no way shape or form can possible impact this season like those three did in 99-00. So while K has been down this road before, the talent he had to start that season was better IMO.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

So, you only root for your teams when they're good? More specifically, when you THINK they're going to be good? That is the definition of a fair-weather fan. Supporting your team no matter what makes you appreciate the successful years even more.


Calm down there bud, I would cheer for Duke even if they were in Virginia's shoes right now. The thing is, and I think a lot of people can attest to this, you start to follow it less and less and I think that is what I mean. I won't be driving home as fast as I can (safely) to get home and turn on ESPN to see them play. I won't be reading recaps every night and downloading the press conferences to watch. And I probably won't be going on some crappy TV website to cach them play Florida St. I will ALWAYS be a Duke fan, Why do you think I am a DBR member? But I think Oregon has a chance to surprise people in the Pac-10 and I am a little more excited for that than Duke's season this year. I gotta give my boys from Eugene some love, ya know?

[dukelifer]

The most interesting question in all this is how will Coach K adjust. He has a much different team than he probably wanted and has no choice but to play with this bunch. For a guy who has a pretty good formula for success and one he has had a hard time fiddling with- he will need to make some serious changes on how his guys play and how he substitutes players. This is going to be a big experiment for him- and he may fail- but he will , for the first time in a while, be faced with changing his philosophy on O and more importantly D. I think we will be seeing a much different style of play next year- I am hoping with much more passing. Duke has three exceptionally skilled players in Singler, Scheyer and Kelly. Duke may end up looking a bit like a Euro league team. I have no expectations for this team right now, except that they will play hard.

[buckshot]

The answer...

http://www.ahherald.com/index.php/Schools/rbr-graduate-realizes-his-dream-to-play-basketball-for-duke-university.html

Let the Casey Peters era begin!

[killerleft]

I'll sure miss Elliot, and wish the best for him.

But I refuse to get caught up in any pessimistic talk.

Coach K's challenge just became greater, but he's always met them head-on. I can't wait to see what he comes up with next. We can't say that things get too routine with the Duke program, can we?

Thank goodness there's a football season coming up!!!!:):cool:

[Kewlswim]

The answer...

http://www.ahherald.com/index.php/Schools/rbr-graduate-realizes-his-dream-to-play-basketball-for-duke-university.html

Let the Casey Peters era begin!

Hi,

I love stories like this... Good luck Casey!!

Any more????

GO DUKE!

[jipops]

A big blow but not the end of the world, never is.

However, I am certainly not convinced that our low-post deficiencies have been answered, the jury is still out on that. Even before the Elliot announcement I didn't even think us to be the best team in the conference next season.

The lean on ball handling and distribution duties to Scheyer and Smith are obvious but what concerns me is the enormous amount of reliance we'll have to put on Singler in every single phase of the game (more than we already have). He's the only scoring low-post threat we're certain we have and there is no way around the fact that he'll have to spend a bunch of time on the perimeter as a 3rd guard as well. Defensively I think we're going to struggle big time due to matchup issues, this may be where the loss of Elliot hurts us the most on the floor.

But hey, we still have at worst 3 excellent talents in Singler, Smith, and Scheyer. It's going to be an extremely daunting task just to get this team in the ncaa tournament.

[dukelifer]

Co-sign. Please do not compare this team (sans Williams) to the 1999-2000 team. Singler is about the only player off our current team that would crack the rotation on that team.

I agree this is a bad comparison. I think the team to compare to is 1987-1988

That was a relatively big team with

Ferry
Strickland
Brickey
Smith
Snyder

as the big scorers

Now we have

Singer
Scheyer
Zoubs
Thomas
Smith

Off the bench- they had

Phil Henderson
King
Abdelnaby
Koubek

Now Duke has

Kelly
MP1
M2
Czyz


Note that while Koubek was a decent shooter- he only averaged 3.9ppg that year.

That 87-88 team went to the final four. Yes that was very long ago and basketball is different- but K at least has a team to think about.

A key difference was that the 87 team had a stopper in King. The current Duke team does not have a stopper and that will force some huge changes in the way they play D.

[whereinthehellami]

Some random thoughts...

Duke loses its 2 most athletic athletes (Henderson, Williams). That is tough for a team with questionable athletiscm to begin with. Duke realistically is looking at getting past the first round of the NCAAs as a good season.

Coach K does not have alot of real viable options to work with. I've seen some people talking about some options that aren't even paper tigers. More like paper domesticated cats. These options have no chance of working in the ACC. This year is more about grinning it and bearing it then trying to figure out ways to make magic. It is what it is and there are alot of limitations to the extent that alot of players can be used.

Duke only has 2 black players on scholarship. I can't remember the last time that happened at Duke or any other team in the ACC! Not going anywhere with this observation or making any kind of inference with it. Just find it interesting.

This coming season is going to be really interesting to say the least!

[Oriole Way]

Duke has officially become a mid-major team.

Next season will probably be the worst one since 1995. I will be the first person to shower Coach K with accolades if we finish anywhere near the top 3 of the ACC and make it past the first day of the NCAA tourny.

I will be pretty baffled and frustrated if K doesn't get another Andre Buckner-type player over the summer to provide backcourt depth. It would be dowright irresponsible not to.

Nolan Smith can't be relied upon to stay healthy all season. I can't believe we're only going to have 2 talented guards on the roster next season.

This is definitely one of the most disappointing days as a Duke basketball fan in a long while, and there have been many disappointing days over the past several seasons.

I will still cheer like crazy for the team next season, but they're facing a huge uphill battle thanks to bad luck and bad recruiting. I'll be patiently waiting until Andre Dawkins and Seth Curry set foot on campus in 2010 to start the program's ascent back to the elite.

[rasputin]

Need I say more? ;)

[Bluedog]

Duke only has 2 black players on scholarship.

Three. Curry will be on scholarship next year; he just can't play.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Duke has officially become a mid-major team.

Next season will probably be the worst one since 1995. I will be the first person to shower Coach K with accolades if we finish anywhere near the top 3 of the ACC and make it past the first day of the NCAA tourny.

I will be pretty baffled and frustrated if K doesn't get another Andre Buckner-type player over the summer to provide backcourt depth. It would be dowright irresponsible not to.

Nolan Smith can't be relied upon to stay healthy all season. I can't believe we're only going to have 2 talented guards on the roster next season.

This is definitely one of the most disappointing days as a Duke basketball fan in a long while, and there have been many disappointing days over the past several seasons.

I will still cheer like crazy for the team next season, but they're facing a huge uphill battle thanks to bad luck and bad recruiting. I'll be patiently waiting until Andre Dawkins and Seth Curry set foot on campus in 2010 to start the program's ascent back to the elite.

Does this mean you'll relinquish tickets in Cameron?

[SoCalDukeFan]

to seeing what K and his could do with limited guard depth.

Now I am dreading the season.

SoCal

[Wander]

I will be the first person to shower Coach K with accolades if we finish anywhere near the top 3 of the ACC and make it past the first day of the NCAA tourny.

We could always get a Friday game. :)

[Oriole Way]

Does this mean you'll relinquish tickets in Cameron?

Of course not... I'm an Orioles fan, so you know I'm not a fairweather fan.

I support my teams through thick and thin, but it's going to be really thin next season.

My issue with this situation is that some things could have been done to prevent this - namely realizing years ago that Greg Paulus was not a good ACC point guard, and more recently that we needed guard depth considering Gerald Henderson was likely to depart early and Nolan Smith has been so inury-prone. All those factors together should have led to an additional guard on the roster already, at worst for the 2009 recruiting class.

I also think there are important things which need to be done in order to prevent this upcoming season from being a disaster, specifically getting an emergency guard somehow (as I said before, like Andre Buckner before the 2000 season), and most importantly, Coach K declining the invitation to Coach Team USA in 2012. The latter is extremely crucial, because I believe one reason the program is in (a temporary) decline is that Coach K's commitment to Team USA adversely affected recruiting, and I have to imagine that less time and energy spent on Duke hurt the team's development as well.

[banneheim]

Some random thoughts...

Duke loses its 2 most athletic athletes (Henderson, Williams). That is tough for a team with questionable athletiscm to begin with. Duke realistically is looking at getting past the first round of the NCAAs as a good season.

Coach K does not have alot of real viable options to work with. I've seen some people talking about some options that aren't even paper tigers. More like paper domesticated cats. These options have no chance of working in the ACC. This year is more about grinning it and bearing it then trying to figure out ways to make magic. It is what it is and there are alot of limitations to the extent that alot of players can be used.

Duke only has 2 black players on scholarship. I can't remember the last time that happened at Duke or any other team in the ACC! Not going anywhere with this observation or making any kind of inference with it. Just find it interesting.

This coming season is going to be really interesting to say the least!


Yes, major point....Duke has lost their top 2 athletic players. LT playing a 2 guard, he would foul out during the 1st half.

[gep]

I also think there are important things which need to be done in order to prevent this upcoming season from being a disaster, specifically getting an emergency guard somehow (as I said before, like Andre Buckner before the 2000 season), and most importantly, Coach K declining the invitation to Coach Team USA in 2012. The latter is extremely crucial, because I believe one reason the program is in (a temporary) decline is that Coach K's commitment to Team USA adversely affected recruiting, and I have to imagine that less time and energy spent on Duke hurt the team's development as well.

Interesting... I wonder how long Coach K knew about Elliot's situation. Maybe this will be the "reason" that he'll need to de-commit from Team USA and spend *all* of his time with this year's Duke team:rolleyes:

[devildownunder]

this is depressing. I'm going to go try to find some more footage of USA soccer beating Spain to cheer myself up.

[Bob Green]

Need I say more? ;)

POTD. However, I'm not sure there are that many posters left around who understand the historical significance of your post.

[bjornolf]

POTD. However, I'm not sure there are that many posters left around who understand the historically significance of your post.

POTD? POTW! Take up the cry! It's over! ;)

Seriously, though, I'll miss you E-Will, and I'll be pulling for you and your family in these tough times.

Go Duke!
GTHC!

[ACCBBallFan]

Duke has officially become a mid-major team.

Next season will probably be the worst one since 1995. I will be the first person to shower Coach K with accolades if we finish anywhere near the top 3 of the ACC and make it past the first day of the NCAA tourny.

I will be pretty baffled and frustrated if K doesn't get another Andre Buckner-type player over the summer to provide backcourt depth. It would be dowright irresponsible not to.

Nolan Smith can't be relied upon to stay healthy all season. I can't believe we're only going to have 2 talented guards on the roster next season.

This is definitely one of the most disappointing days as a Duke basketball fan in a long while, and there have been many disappointing days over the past several seasons.

I will still cheer like crazy for the team next season, but they're facing a huge uphill battle thanks to bad luck and bad recruiting. I'll be patiently waiting until Andre Dawkins and Seth Curry set foot on campus in 2010 to start the program's ascent back to the elite. Fortunately the team and the coaching staff wil step up to the challenge rather than cash out with a good excuse for not winning.

This situation is not nearly as dire as what UNC faced after 2005 and they finsihed like second or third if I recall, including a win at Cameron over the JJ-Shelden-Josh et all team who on paper was unbeatable by a bunch of newbies.

Beisdes 2009-2010 UNC who has its own lack of proven guard depth and reliance on frosh, who in the ACC do you foresee relegating Duke to bottom half of the ACC standings, or mid major caliber?

This is a down year for NCAA in general and for ACC particularly devoid of 3 point shooters. Duke stll has a couple of the best with Jon-Kyle, just no margin for error on fouls/injuries.

So get ready to shower coach K with those accolades you proimised.

Pressure is now off the team to be immediately a powerhose, the traditional Duke standard, and task is back to clicking by March-April as the high potential frosh mature on the job, and seldom used frosh from last year get more PT.

[Saratoga2]

I am not living in the past. Duke's misguided recruiting has lead the team that will have 2 guards that will be playing 40 minutes. They can not get injured or get into foul trouble. Davidson may help, but unless this team plays perfect basketball it will be a difficult season.We will get some wins, but with only 2 guards we will be vulnerable to this lack of depth.

Injuries, illnesses (MONO, FLU, ETC) and foul trouble can leave us in trouble. Players do need a break at times in fast paced game as well. All of the above will be problematical and opposing coaches will attempt to exploit our weaknesses.

People are thinking coach K can pull a rabbit out of the hat. If it were that easy, he would already have done it when we had only three guards. Our best bet is to attempt to have our best ball handling big man participate in bringing the ball up. It worked for Turkolu (?sp). Guarding athletic points and wings will be a big problem as well, since Henderson and Williams were our two most athletic regular players.

[Indoor66]

It seems like everyone is pointing to Memphis, but is it possible that he'd transfer to another TN school like Vanderbilt? Memphis isn't all that far from Nashville and Stallings recruited him heavily.

About the same as from Durham to Asheville!

[oldnavy]

Like a couple of other posters have mentioned, we may need to play much more zone defense this year. I seem to remember Coach K talking about an 'orange' set on defense during the Olympics, something he learned or copied from Coach Boehiem at Syracuse.

I have often screamed 'GO ZONE' at the TV during Duke games when an opposing PG would continually break us down and take the ball to the hoop. I know it is silly for me to think that I know more about defense than the Duke coaching staff, but perhaps the departures of the two most athletic players we had will be the catalyst to mix in some 2-3 or 3-2 sets this year.

Also, every dark cloud has a silver lining, so think about the potential match-up problems Duke will pose for our opponents. For example, having Singler at the two would cause a problem for most any team we face. I am sure he would post most of the 2's in the league up at will...

I expect Duke to do just fine next year. We may not go deep in the NCAA, but I do not expect a repeat of 95, because we will still have K coaching.

[Faison1]

POTD. However, I'm not sure there are that many posters left around who understand the historical significance of your post.

There's enough posters around to understand the significance, but the more time I spend thinking about this situation, and many situations like it over the last 4 years, I must say I am a bit discouraged by the whole thing. No one is saying it's over, but this team definitely does not stack up to the JWill, Battier, Duhon, Dunleavy team. Missing a key piece like EWill will hurt bad.

We've gone from potentially having G, John Wall, EWill, and a Final Four, to none of the above. All in a couple month's time. I think Duke will be good next year, but as with anything, lowering expectations is a VERY tough thing to do.

My guess is that the style of play might be a bit sloppy, at least for the beginning of the season. I can only hope we get some good news for 2010 recruiting.

One of the great articles that Al Featherston and Jim Sumner wrote pertaining to Duke's 2008 and 2009 recruiting said that if Duke did not restock talent with the 2009 class, the staff would have to reevaluate how they were going about their business. I hope that is the case, at this point.

[jimsumner]

"I agree this is a bad comparison. I think the team to compare to is 1987-1988

That was a relatively big team with

Ferry
Strickland
Brickey
Smith
Snyder

as the big scorers"

I don't see much of a comparison here. Duke started 6'10" Ferry, 6'6" Billy King, 6'5" Robert Brickey, 6'5" Kevin Strickland, and 6'3" Quin Snyder. That is not a relatively big team. King could play point in an emergency and Duke had Phil Henderson, Greg Koubek, and Joe Cook on the bench, i.e. a lot more perimeter depth.

Frankly, there is no analogue here. We're in unchartered waters.

For those concerned about the racial composition of the team, be assured that this is a one-year anomaly. Curry, Dawkins, Thornton, and Hairston all are African American and every player Duke is seriously recruiting in the high school classes of 2010 and 2011 is African American.

[devildownunder]

Have you seen Kelly play?

I think you're right that defense is key. If Kyle can defend opposing 2s then I don't see why he can't thrive there. Certainly there won't be too many guards who will be able to defend him. Lance can hopefully defend out there some as well, and Ryan and Olek will have to defend some wing forwards.

It is sad that Elliot has a sick relative. It is sad he's leaving Duke. But devastating to Duke basketball? I think that's overstating the case.

Not for 2009-10 it isn't.

[dukelifer]

"I agree this is a bad comparison. I think the team to compare to is 1987-1988

That was a relatively big team with

Ferry
Strickland
Brickey
Smith
Snyder

as the big scorers"

I don't see much of a comparison here. Duke started 6'10" Ferry, 6'6" Billy King, 6'5" Robert Brickey, 6'5" Kevin Strickland, and 6'3" Quin Snyder. That is not a relatively big team. King could play point in an emergency and Duke had Phil Henderson, Greg Koubek, and Joe Cook on the bench, i.e. a lot more perimeter depth.

Frankly, there is no analogue here. We're in unchartered waters.

For those concerned about the racial composition of the team, be assured that this is a one-year anomaly. Curry, Dawkins, Thornton, and Hairston all are African American and every player Duke is seriously recruiting in the high school classes of 2010 and 2011 is African American.

Well if you do not include John Smith here you are right. While Smith did not start - he contributed a lot and was the 5th leading scorer. So Duke has 6'9 Singler (Ferry), 6'8" Thomas (Smith), 6'5" Scheyer (Strickland), 6'2" Smith (Snyder/Henderson) and then no one who really compares to Brickey (but a few who will contribute as much). You can make a case for Kelly/Koubek (at least as shooters) and after that it falls apart. But starter wise (with Smith in there) there is some basis for comparison size and relative talent. But that team thrived on its D and its smarts.

[Crisker]

Well, this is obviously not good, beginning with EWill and his family. Good luck and best of wishes to all involved.

Coach K has earned his accolades for a reason. The primary reason is that he is not dumb. I am pretty confident that nothing that his been posted in this entire thread has not crossed his mind. I am also confident that he is brainstorming the issues, and will make changes in just about every phase of the program.

Having said that, it will be a long season, but I think it will be interesting to watch, and even fun at times. I'm certain Duke will be outside any of its previous boxes, of necessity. This kind of forced change can be exceptionally healthy, and that's what I expect to happen.

[jimsumner]

"Well if you do not include John Smith here you are right.

Well, I didn't include Smith as a starter because he wasn't a starter; actually he started at the beginning of the season but lost his spot to Brickey. Smith was seventh on the team in minutes played, averaging about 16 mpg. Billy King averaged about 27 mpg.

"6'2" Smith (Snyder/Henderson)" Here's the rub. Smith is one player. Snyder and Henderson were two players. The 1988 team had seven recruited players 6'6" or smaller. The 2010 team has two. So unless Duke can figure out a way to have a Phil Henderson, a Greg Koubek, and a Joe Cook coming off the bench, then I don't think we can take this comparison very far.

And like I said, I can't come up with a better comparison. The 1999 team only had two pure guards, Avery and Langdon but Carrawell, Maggette, and James were the kind of versatile 6'6" players who could move to the backcourt without losing effectiveness. That kind of option just isn't available for next year.

[sivartrenrag]

I see this as a bottom for the program. Which is a good thing. As someone else said, this kind of thing could be healthy and necessary for things to change and get us back on track. At least our next recruiting class is stacked and if we land Barnes and a few more guys to fill out the class, I see a bright, bright future for the good shade of blue.

Either way, next season will be as exciting as every other season and I can't wait to see what K makes of this squad. In all honesty, it might be refreshing rooting for the underdog... that's not something I'm used to in NCAA ball =D

Also, best wishes to E-Will's family. I hope everything works out and he has a wonderful career.

[HB TAYLOR]

Hmm somehow you forgot Singler and Smith in there. Somehow this bunch of "misses" figured out how to win 30 games and ACC championship. Amazing what no talent and mediocre players can do these days.

What has been our post season record the past 4 years? I appologize for leaving Singler and Smith off but cant you see my point? Marty giving up his 5th year is really going to hurt also. He would have added much needed athleticism in the backcourt. It always puzzled me why he never saw decent minutes.

[RelativeWays]

I hope EWill can find comfort and solace from transferring. I believe the first time this rumor popped up, it mentioned it was his mother that was terminally ill. That's really tough for a young kid to deal with if thats true.

[COYS]

"Well if you do not include John Smith here you are right.

Well, I didn't include Smith as a starter because he wasn't a starter; actually he started at the beginning of the season but lost his spot to Brickey. Smith was seventh on the team in minutes played, averaging about 16 mpg. Billy King averaged about 27 mpg.

"6'2" Smith (Snyder/Henderson)" Here's the rub. Smith is one player. Snyder and Henderson were two players. The 1988 team had seven recruited players 6'6" or smaller. The 2010 team has two. So unless Duke can figure out a way to have a Phil Henderson, a Greg Koubek, and a Joe Cook coming off the bench, then I don't think we can take this comparison very far.

And like I said, I can't come up with a better comparison. The 1999 team only had two pure guards, Avery and Langdon but Carrawell, Maggette, and James were the kind of versatile 6'6" players who could move to the backcourt without losing effectiveness. That kind of option just isn't available for next year.

The '00-'01 team really only had JWill and Duhon at the guard spots. Dunleavy was of course versatile enough to fill the void on the wing although in a way comparable to Singler and Nate James was also quick enough to guard opposing wings on the perimeter even though he was never much of a ball handler. Obviously, both Williams and Duhon were excellent point guards, so that certainly helps, but outside of Andre Buckner, Andre Sweet and Ryan Caldbeck, who of course only saw mop up minutes, even when we were in foul trouble that's pretty much all that team had. Battier could also handle the ball well enough on the perimeter. Hopefully someone like Ryan can step up to be a second combo-forward option to help out on the perimeter. Obviously, I recognize that the '00-'01 team, as a whole, had far, far more talent from top to bottom and I'm not saying that next year's squad will be a legit title contender. However, we certainly can win and be successful. I certainly understand lowering expectations, but saying that we'll be a lower-tier ACC team is lowering them far too much, in my opinion.

[weezie]

Duke has officially become a mid-major team.



Seriously homes, go cheer for the terps.
I wonder if the coaching staff reads this kind of crap and gets a good laugh.
sheeeeesh

[SoCalDukeFan]

I am pretty sure that Boykin had to sit out a year at Cal and I am sure that Stephanson had to sit last year at USC. Does anyone know just what criteria the NCAA uses to determine if transfers can play right away?

SoCal

[dukemsu]

First and foremost, all the best to EWill and his family. Best wishes in what must be a horribly difficult time.

Switching gears to basketball, next season will be the biggest test K has had since he returned in 94-95, even moreso than the mass exodus following the UConn loss.

The biggest challenge won't be offensively. The biggest challenge will be defensively. I've played around with matchups and combos, and I don't think there's any way K can keep the key players on the floor and in any semblance of effectiveness without heavily employing zone and daring teams to brick themselves to death from outside.

Teams will run set after set to try and isolate Jon and get him off the floor due to foul trouble. Jon's a good defender and in marvelous shape, but K will have to do a lot to protect him from foul trouble.

K is often at his best when pushed into a corner and forced to innovate. This time, he may be outmatched. And I'm going to support and cheer the guys like crazy and hope for the absolute best. But this is a major blow, and will require K to change much of his proven strategy, especially at the defensive end. There simply aren't enough players to pressure the ball and overplay, which is what he's built the program on as much as anything.

LGD.

dukemsu

[dukelifer]

"Well if you do not include John Smith here you are right.

Well, I didn't include Smith as a starter because he wasn't a starter; actually he started at the beginning of the season but lost his spot to Brickey. Smith was seventh on the team in minutes played, averaging about 16 mpg. Billy King averaged about 27 mpg.

"6'2" Smith (Snyder/Henderson)" Here's the rub. Smith is one player. Snyder and Henderson were two players. The 1988 team had seven recruited players 6'6" or smaller. The 2010 team has two. So unless Duke can figure out a way to have a Phil Henderson, a Greg Koubek, and a Joe Cook coming off the bench, then I don't think we can take this comparison very far.

And like I said, I can't come up with a better comparison. The 1999 team only had two pure guards, Avery and Langdon but Carrawell, Maggette, and James were the kind of versatile 6'6" players who could move to the backcourt without losing effectiveness. That kind of option just isn't available for next year.
Well I tried to find a small sliver of a comparison to find some solace- but now I am crushed. Time to take a break and regroup. Maybe MP2 and Kelly are really just 6' 6" guys whose heights were overstated in HS. Remember how 6'4" Nelson turned out to be 6'. You never know :D

[dukelifer]

I am pretty sure that Boykin had to sit out a year at Cal and I am sure that Stephanson had to sit last year at USC. Does anyone know just what criteria the NCAA uses to determine if transfers can play right away?

SoCal
It is hard to imagine that the NCAA would allow this. First, they would have to make some judgment of what constitutes a family issue and its severity. That would be very, very hard to do.

[geraldsneighbor]

It is hard to imagine that the NCAA would allow this. First, they would have to make some judgment of what constitutes a family issue and its severity. That would be very, very hard to do.

I'd be stunned if EW is allowed to play right away. Tyler Smith was allowed because his father died. Unless its a death, as morbid as that may be, they don't want to set a precedent that you can say you have a sick family member and use it to go home.


I think the only way he does play next year is if K and the Duke staff tell the NCAA they think EW should be able to and it has their blessing.

Best wishes to EW and his family. I hope things are okay.

[jimsumner]

"The '00-'01 team really only had JWill and Duhon at the guard spots. Dunleavy was of course versatile enough to fill the void on the wing although in a way comparable to Singler and Nate James was also quick enough to guard opposing wings on the perimeter even though he was never much of a ball handler. Obviously, both Williams and Duhon were excellent point guards, so that certainly helps, but outside of Andre Buckner, Andre Sweet and Ryan Caldbeck, who of course only saw mop up minutes, even when we were in foul trouble that's pretty much all that team had."

So all that team had at the guard spots was Jason Williams, Chris Duhon, Mike Dunleavy, and Nate James? Pretty sad. :)

Anybody else think that circa 2001 Andre Buckner would actually merit major minutes next season?

Look folks, there isn't a good comparison. Trust me, I do this for a living. Maybe if Singler, Kelly, Czyz, channel their inner Dunleavy, Thomas his inner James. But Dunleavy was a 6'4 guard when he was a high-school junior and retained his guard skills when he grew into a power forward. These other guys are post players trying to develop guard skills. Apples and oranges.

This doesn't automatically mean that Duke is going to fade into irrelevancy next season. But the margin for error is mighty, mighty small and somebody, most likely several somebodies, is going to have to step out of their comfort zone and do some things they weren't recruited to do.

[Scorp4me]

Coaching for the USA may hurt now, but will pay off in the future. That's a given! But I say he should coach and takes time off completely from Duke. Let us tank, go down the hole, give us another 95. Then maybe we'll shed some of these fans. Some of you are beyond sad.

But I am surprised no one has mentioned the best thing. You guys been complaining about "small ball"...well, you won't have to worry about that now:)

[Kewlswim]

Coaching for the USA may hurt now, but will pay off in the future. That's a given! But I say he should coach and takes time off completely from Duke. Let us tank, go down the hole, give us another 95. Then maybe we'll shed some of these fans. Some of you are beyond sad.

But I am surprised no one has mentioned the best thing. You guys been complaining about "small ball"...well, you won't have to worry about that now:)

However,

I am not ready to give up an inch. Not a single inch. I am still thinking this team will gel and it will be one heck of a season. I am sorry EWill left, but worrying about that is over, next play. I hope that you folks who only root for the Devils when it is "easy" take a hike, we don't need you.

GO DUKE!!

[Devilsfan]

I'm sure we will be competitive. We will play smart. We are still Duke. Those are givens. We need the athletes of the 2011 and 2012 recruits to be great again, especially if we somehow land a Barnes, imho.

[OldSchool]

Best wishes to Elliot and his family.

I feel bad for next year's seniors, because with Elliot while they were thin at guard, if they stayed healthy they had a great chance of doing something special in the post-season. The odds are much more difficult for a long post-season run without Elliot.

I think a lot of it will come down to how effective and comfortable Ryan Kelly can be on the perimeter. And unless K suddenly brings in a guard for next year, Jordan Davidson will average several minutes a game.

Offensively, Kyle will be our key matchup advantage and our workhorse. He will be an unbelievable stat-stuffer next year.

I expect Zoubek to start at center and to defend his starting position against challenge by the underclassmen. Miles will be his backup and will get decent minutes. I look for Zoubek to have an Abelnaby-like breakout year his senior season.

The 3 and the 4 positions will be interchangeable. Kyle will get huge minutes, but Lance and Mason will each get the equivalent of starter's minutes. I think Mason will develop into an excellent defender by season's end. Olek will get minutes especially when there is foul trouble.

And of course Jon and Nolan will get big minutes.

But as I mentioned, Ryan's ability to be comfortable at the 2 position will be key. He will need to be able to defend without fouling out. And the key to that will be defensive rotations -- when his man blows by him, there MUST be solid, immediate rotation to block the drive to the rim with follow-on rotations and recoveries. The veterans have some experience with that but the younger players are going to have to pick that up quickly. We have a smart team - we should be able to pull this off. I don't expect K to use a lot of zone next year.

And Ryan will need to be able to play effectively without turning the ball over. In what I've seen of him, he looks to me anyway to be more comfortable on the perimeter than down low. He's a smart kid, and he may be able to adequately pull off the adjustments.

One thing for sure - it will be a fascinating season. Can K take a team of big men and make his style of basketball work? I expect Mason to be as good as advertised, and the versatility of Kyle and Mason can make it work, if Ryan can hold down some solid minutes out on the perimeter.

[gep]

And unless K suddenly brings in a guard for next year, Jordan Davidson will average several minutes a game.

I'm definitely not a basketball expert... but Jordan have a few years under the Duke system playing against the first team every day in practice. Seems to me that gives him a great step up in terms of experience and knowing what Coach K wants and expects. Contrast this to a *very* late pick-up player who has absolutely no knowledge of Duke and its system. Even a marginally "better" athlete/player than Jordan... if he doesn't know front from back, Jordan may be a better choice as the 3rd guard. I would think that at this point, unless you find that "diamond in the ruff", he's not going to be much better than Jordan, and maybe even a liability. So, I say, Duke goes with what was dealt them... just thinking...:rolleyes:

[JasonEvans]

Duke has officially become a mid-major team.


Hyperbole much?

All of SPHMs do realize that we will STILL have more Mickie Dees on our roster next year than probably any team in the land (I have not counted, but UNC is probably the only team to come close).

Duke is still going to be a top 10-15 team and one of the top clubs in the ACC. Losing EWill hurts, but it is not a disaster that takes this team out of the NCAA Tourney picture (as some SPHMs have implied). Ya'll realize that Elliot was probably not even going to start, right?

This team will play Nolan Smith, Jon Scheyer, and Kyle Singler a ton of minutes and has an abundance of athletic and talented big men (including a couple more than capable of playing on the wing). No, this will not be a typical Duke team which plays in-your-face man-to-man all over the floor (though they will not play a ton of zone, as some have predicted), but there is an abundance of talented players and a coaching staff that has shown itself time and again to be one of the best in the business.

Ya'll all need to take a chill pill and just relax. We'll be fine. No, the prospects are not as good as they were 24 hours ago but they are not as bad as some of ya'll seem to think... not nearly.

--Jason "the notion of a Juco seems crazy to me" Evans

[Chicago 1995]

Hyperbole much?

All of SPHMs do realize that we will STILL have more Mickie Dees on our roster next year than probably any team in the land (I have not counted, but UNC is probably the only team to come close).

Duke is still going to be a top 10-15 team and one of the top clubs in the ACC. Losing EWill hurts, but it is not a disaster that takes this team out of the NCAA Tourney picture (as some SPHMs have implied). Ya'll realize that Elliot was probably not even going to start, right?

This team will play Nolan Smith, Jon Scheyer, and Kyle Singler a ton of minutes and has an abundance of athletic and talented big men (including a couple more than capable of playing on the wing). No, this will not be a typical Duke team which plays in-your-face man-to-man all over the floor (though they will not play a ton of zone, as some have predicted), but there is an abundance of talented players and a coaching staff that has shown itself time and again to be one of the best in the business.

Ya'll all need to take a chill pill and just relax. We'll be fine. No, the prospects are not as good as they were 24 hours ago but they are not as bad as some of ya'll seem to think... not nearly.

--Jason "the notion of a Juco seems crazy to me" Evans

I guess I'm a screaming howler panic monkey because I think a roster this unbalanced and unatheltic is a giant problem, but . . . .

1. Not all McDs AAs are built the same. Some are Kevin Durant. Others are Neil Fingleton. Having the most Neil Fingleton's wouldn't win you many games. That label is a nice reflexive defense, but it's meaningless.

2. We've also had the most McD's AAs on our roster several of the last three or four or five years, and that's not exactly worked out the way we'd hoped. Nova didn't have as many McDs AAs as we did. Neither did Belmont or WVA. Or VCU. Or LSU. Or Michigan State.

3. I'm pretty sure you could give John Wooden and Phil Jackson's love child a roster of 12 McDs AA guards or 12 McDs AA Centers, and that super coach would struggle at times. Our roster isn't that unbalanced, but it is perilously close.

We may well be fine, Jason. We might also have to deal with the flu or a twisted ankle with Jon or Nolan and in that case, we likely won't be fine. Our margin is so this this year it's almost unreal. It's inexcusible that we're in this situation.

[CDu]

I guess I'm a screaming howler panic monkey because I think a roster this unbalanced and unatheltic is a giant problem, but . . . .

1. Not all McDs AAs are built the same. Some are Kevin Durant. Others are Neil Fingleton. Having the most Neil Fingleton's wouldn't win you many games. That label is a nice reflexive defense, but it's meaningless.

2. We've also had the most McD's AAs on our roster several of the last three or four or five years, and that's not exactly worked out the way we'd hoped. Nova didn't have as many McDs AAs as we did. Neither did Belmont or WVA. Or VCU. Or LSU. Or Michigan State.

3. I'm pretty sure you could give John Wooden and Phil Jackson's love child a roster of 12 McDs AA guards or 12 McDs AA Centers, and that super coach would struggle at times. Our roster isn't that unbalanced, but it is perilously close.

We may well be fine, Jason. We might also have to deal with the flu or a twisted ankle with Jon or Nolan and in that case, we likely won't be fine. Our margin is so this this year it's almost unreal. It's inexcusible that we're in this situation.

100% agreed. Simply saying "look at all the McDonald's AA we have" and "Coach K is an awesome coach" overlooks the fact that we're incredibly unbalanced. As you said, high school talent doesn't always mean college success. And as you said, talent isn't the only piece of the equation. Talent that complements itself matters too, and this team is incredibly unbalanced.

If everything goes right, we may well be able to work around the lack of guards. But that's asking for a lot of improvement out of Smith and Thomas, and its asking a lot out of Kelly (maybe more than should be reasonably expected). And it's assuming no injuries or illnesses and the absolute minimum foul trouble.

This team was a top 10-15 team last year. I don't see this as a top 10-15 team this year. I don't see it as an awful team by any means, but there is just no margin for error at all. And even if the team doesn't have illness/injury/foul trouble, it may not be enough. Admitting that shouldn't make you an SHPM. It is completely rational to be concerned about what is a problematic situation.

[bluebear]

100% agreed. Simply saying "look at all the McDonald's AA we have" and "Coach K is an awesome coach" overlooks the fact that we're incredibly unbalanced. As you said, high school talent doesn't always mean college success. And as you said, talent isn't the only piece of the equation. Talent that complements itself matters too, and this team is incredibly unbalanced.

If everything goes right, we may well be able to work around the lack of guards. But that's asking for a lot of improvement out of Smith and Thomas, and its asking a lot out of Kelly (maybe more than should be reasonably expected). And it's assuming no injuries or illnesses and the absolute minimum foul trouble.

This team was a top 10-15 team last year. I don't see this as a top 10-15 team this year. I don't see it as an awful team by any means, but there is just no margin for error at all. And even if the team doesn't have illness/injury/foul trouble, it may not be enough. Admitting that shouldn't make you an SHPM. It is completely rational to be concerned about what is a problematic situation.

But haven't we been just as unbalanced the past few years in terms of bigs? Again, I'm not thinking Duke will contend nationally next year but 10-15 is pretty reasonable given all the talent on this team. We will struggle against some teams with quick guards (but that happened when we had a ton of guards recently). You are right that there is a little margin for error but I think that has been the case for the past several years.

[Wander]

As you said, high school talent doesn't always mean college success. And as you said, talent isn't the only piece of the equation. Talent that complements itself matters too, and this team is incredibly unbalanced.


I think high school talent generally works out well, we just need to stop using McDAA as a useful watermark for that talent. Instead, just focus on where the player was actually ranked numbers-wise. Some one can correct me if I wrong, but I believe we only have one player on the team that was ranked in the Top 20 of their high school class, and he's certainly met and, in my opinion, exceeded his expectations at Duke so far.

[whereinthehellami]

I agree with Chicago 1995 and CDU about next year. And that doesn't make me a SPHM any more than it makes the "others" lemmings for drinking the Duke cool aid and thinking that Coach K has magic fairy dust that he can sprinkle on an unbalanced, thin team.

An while I don't think Duke is now a mid-major team I think that next year's team would struggle against alot of the better mid-major teams. Duke is one injury away from not making the NCAAs IMO.

[NSDukeFan]

Hyperbole much?

All of SPHMs do realize that we will STILL have more Mickie Dees on our roster next year than probably any team in the land (I have not counted, but UNC is probably the only team to come close).

Duke is still going to be a top 10-15 team and one of the top clubs in the ACC. Losing EWill hurts, but it is not a disaster that takes this team out of the NCAA Tourney picture (as some SPHMs have implied). Ya'll realize that Elliot was probably not even going to start, right?

This team will play Nolan Smith, Jon Scheyer, and Kyle Singler a ton of minutes and has an abundance of athletic and talented big men (including a couple more than capable of playing on the wing). No, this will not be a typical Duke team which plays in-your-face man-to-man all over the floor (though they will not play a ton of zone, as some have predicted), but there is an abundance of talented players and a coaching staff that has shown itself time and again to be one of the best in the business.

Ya'll all need to take a chill pill and just relax. We'll be fine. No, the prospects are not as good as they were 24 hours ago but they are not as bad as some of ya'll seem to think... not nearly.

--Jason "the notion of a Juco seems crazy to me" Evans

I think your top 10-15 team prediction is optimistic, but close to where I feel where we will be. I expect we will hit that range at some point this year, though I think it will be interesting to see if we can avoid major injuries and have our defense and offense clicking enough to make the sweet 16 at the end of the year.

I also agree with your point about zone defense. I don't think K will all of a sudden change philosophies and play a whole lot more zone. I think it will be more important than ever to have great help-side fundamentals drilled into everyone. I expect we will have a lot more size inside defensively if we do get beat off the dribble and hope that we can contest more shots inside.

I also think we will have defending the 3-point shot as well as we have the last few years, but I don't know if that will matter as much as usual in this year's ACC. I guess if this lack of backcourt depth were to happen any year, this year with limited returning backcourt strength in conference, is the year for it to happen.

The lack of backcourt depth is definitely a concern, but I think I like our chances better against anyone in the ACC with our lineup this year than against UNC last year with last year's lineup.

[CDu]

But haven't we been just as unbalanced the past few years in terms of bigs? Again, I'm not thinking Duke will contend nationally next year but 10-15 is pretty reasonable given all the talent on this team. We will struggle against some teams with quick guards (but that happened when we had a ton of guards recently). You are right that there is a little margin for error but I think that has been the case for the past several years.

We haven't been nearly this unbalanced before. While we haven't had great options in the post, we've had some options.

In college, you can get away with playing small - especially when you have phenomenal leapers like Henderson and Nelson who can play bigger than they really are, and exceptionally smart (if undersized) defenders like McClure. It is not easy to make up for a lack of a backcourt, because quickness tends to trump size on the perimeter.

Thus, none of the previous teams we had were nearly as unbalanced as this one. As I said, it's not just a sum of talent game. It's where the talent is. And depth and talent at the wings is more important than depth and talent in the post.

To be truly great, you want both. But if you're going to have only one, you want the depth and talent at guard wing. And none of our past teams have been nearly as lacking at guard/wing as this team is.

I'm not saying it's impossible for us to have a top 10-15 team. I'm just saying that people are being overly optimistic (or are overlooking the problems) when they assume we'll be a top 10-15 team based on total talent.

[_Gary]

I agree with Chicago 1995 and CDU about next year. And that doesn't make me a SPHM any more than it makes the "others" lemmings for drinking the Duke cool aid and thinking that Coach K has magic fairy dust that he can sprinkle on an unbalanced, thin team.

An while I don't think Duke is now a mid-major team I think that next year's team would struggle against alot of the better mid-major teams. Duke is one injury away from not making the NCAAs IMO.

I completely agree with those statements. We may start out ranked in the Top 20 or better based on paper talent, but I doubt we finish the year in the Top 20. It's just hard to imagine we get through the entire year without one injury to a starter. Even just a minor "hiccup" type injury (tweaked ankle or bruised bone) will hurt us terribly, especially if we are talking about any one of Nolan/Jon/Kyle. Let's face it, when was the last time we had all our starters go through an entire year without any injury or prolonged illness (like mono) at all? I certainly can't remember. So the line is razor thin, to say the least.

Personally, I think we'll be doing well just to make it past the first weekend of the NCAA's. And I frankly wouldn't at all be shocked to see us as a bubble team leading up to Selection Sunday. 9-7 in the ACC seems about right to me. Doubt we do any better than that, unless we have a magical year with absolutely no injuries/illnesses and everyone playing at peak performance nightly.

Just my two cents. Guess this post makes me a SPHM. :p

[RockyMtDevil]

I hope Jason is correct, but I just can't see us being a top 15 team after January 10. Sure, early season cupcakes will keep us in the top 20, but if you take the name "Duke" off this roster, we look very similar to Davidson. In fact, they are a great comparison for us this year, which shows just how far the mighty have fallen.

I am amazed at all the upbeat posts on here considering the reality of the situation.

[CDu]

I hope Jason is correct, but I just can't see us being a top 15 team after January 10. Sure, early season cupcakes will keep us in the top 20, but if you take the name "Duke" off this roster, we look very similar to Davidson. In fact, they are a great comparison for us this year, which shows just how far the mighty have fallen.

I am amazed at all the upbeat posts on here considering the reality of the situation.

I admire the positive attitude people are taking, but I do think it's unrealistic to expect a top 10-15 team this year. Maybe if everything plays out just right we'll be top 10-15, but we shouldn't EXPECT everything to play out just right.

Yes, there is talent. Scheyer and Singler should be 1st- or 2nd-team All-ACC this year. Yes, there is potential. Smith, the Plumlees, and Kelly all have promise. And you never know what you'll get from Thomas and Zoubek as seniors.

But there is just no precedent in this era of basketball for a team being successful with so few guards. Guard play is so important to success in today's game. It's hard to compete without it.

I hope I'm wrong, and I'll be cheering against my opinion all season. But I really do believe that you can compete without a post presence but you can't compete without guards. We have two talented guards, but we don't have anyone else. I think that's going to make things very difficult.

[COYS]

I hope Jason is correct, but I just can't see us being a top 15 team after January 10. Sure, early season cupcakes will keep us in the top 20, but if you take the name "Duke" off this roster, we look very similar to Davidson. In fact, they are a great comparison for us this year, which shows just how far the mighty have fallen.

I am amazed at all the upbeat posts on here considering the reality of the situation.

Iff Curry had been surrounded by Jon and Kyle, Davidson may very well have had a final four a couple years ago. I don't think that's a particularly accurate comparison. It is very unlikely that Duke will be a top 10 team next year, but I also just don't see them falling all the way out of the top 25 as long as they remain healthy for most of the season. It's not the most talented team Duke has ever had, of course, but there's still enough talent, however unbalanced to stay in the top 25.

[_Gary]

I hope I'm wrong, and I'll be cheering against my opinion all season. But I really do believe that you can compete without a post presence but you can't compete without guards. We have two talented guards, but we don't have anyone else. I think that's going to make things very difficult.

CDu, this is the key in my opinion as well. Guard play is essential to success. Teams can make a run without a strong post presence, but it's much more difficult to do so without strong guard play. And frankly I look at Jon as more of a college 3 than I do a 2 (on offense), only because I don't believe he can dribble penetrate and create his own shot to the degree I'd like to see my starting 2 do. If you have a 3 that can do those things, then it's ok for your 2 to be more of a spot up shooter and peremiter facilator. Jon is wonderful at those things.

Having said that, I do believe Jon is a solid 2 on defense. So that helps. But even so, the bottom line is still that we only have 2 ACC caliber guards on this team. Hard to be all that opimistic. Like you, I'll be rooting with all my heart against my opinion.

Go Duke!

[bluebear]

We haven't been nearly this unbalanced before. While we haven't had great options in the post, we've had some options.

In college, you can get away with playing small - especially when you have phenomenal leapers like Henderson and Nelson who can play bigger than they really are, and exceptionally smart (if undersized) defenders like McClure. It is not easy to make up for a lack of a backcourt, because quickness tends to trump size on the perimeter.

Thus, none of the previous teams we had were nearly as unbalanced as this one. As I said, it's not just a sum of talent game. It's where the talent is. And depth and talent at the wings is more important than depth and talent in the post.

To be truly great, you want both. But if you're going to have only one, you want the depth and talent at guard wing. And none of our past teams have been nearly as lacking at guard/wing as this team is.

I'm not saying it's impossible for us to have a top 10-15 team. I'm just saying that people are being overly optimistic (or are overlooking the problems) when they assume we'll be a top 10-15 team based on total talent.

I agree with most of what you say except the part about being more unbalanced. We were just as unbalanced but were able to compensate as you describe. We do lack wings which makes it harder but I think we need to wait and see how Kelly can perform on the wing. Kyle will obviously be fine in that role. My biggest concern will be fatigue as the season rolls on and foul trouble for individual games. Again, there is a lot of talent on this team. The starting 5 will likely look exactly as it did before yesterday. There are not a lot of great teams out there..10-15 is not being overly optimistic..

[CDu]

I agree with most of what you say except the part about being more unbalanced. We were just as unbalanced but were able to compensate as you describe. We do lack wings which makes it harder but I think we need to wait and see how Kelly can perform on the wing. Kyle will obviously be fine in that role. My biggest concern will be fatigue as the season rolls on and foul trouble for individual games. Again, there is a lot of talent on this team. The starting 5 will likely look exactly as it did before yesterday. There are not a lot of great teams out there..10-15 is not being overly optimistic..

And I still don't think we've ever been this unbalanced. We've always had plenty of options for the 1-4 spots on the floor, and at least one guy who was adequate enough at the 5. This year, we have plenty of options for the 4 and 5, but literally no suitable backups for the 1, 2, and 3 spots. That's a lot more unbalanced.

And more importantly, it's more unbalanced at the wrong place to be unbalanced. I think 10-15 is possible, but I think that's probably the best-case scenario. Thus, I think it's being overly optimistic to expect a 10-15 ranking.

[RockyMtDevil]

Iff Curry had been surrounded by Jon and Kyle, Davidson may very well have had a final four a couple years ago. I don't think that's a particularly accurate comparison. It is very unlikely that Duke will be a top 10 team next year, but I also just don't see them falling all the way out of the top 25 as long as they remain healthy for most of the season. It's not the most talented team Duke has ever had, of course, but there's still enough talent, however unbalanced to stay in the top 25.

The question is, who is surrounding Jon and Kyle? Do you realize they will get the most athletic defender any team has to offer? They will be keyed on so much due to our imbalanced lineup that I think we are smokin something to assume they can both put up the same numbers as previous years. This is bad folks,

[Jaymf7]

And I still don't think we've ever been this unbalanced.

Playing with Reggie Love as a center in the 2001 ACC Tourney comes to mind. Granted, we had tons of talent on that (Nat'l Champ) team, but we managed to overcome adversity and a certain lack of balance. Of course, I agree that a Nat'l Championship is most unlikely this season without real backcourt depth, but we will still win lots of games.

EWill was not a playmaker. He did not hit consistently from the outside. He had few assists. His important contributions (while Nolan was injured) related to defense and transition, and he will be missed. But he was not the guy who would be running the offense this year (at any time).

We still have Scheyer, Smith and Singler to initiate offense. I expect all 3 to improve in that regard. Hopefully Singler can emulate Grant Hill's court vision and point forward abilities on some level (recall 1994 was another Nat'l title game year when we relied so heavily on a versatile big). Again, I'm not predicting a final four, but talk of missing the NCAAs with this lineup is silly (absent a slew of serious injuries).

Each year a group on this board bemoans some shortcoming. I hope we will not need to worry about lack of size or poor rebounding this year. Yes, we may not have every perimeter player contest every three, but at least we may get a few more boards after the misses. Also, perhaps we will not contest every pass, but we should not give up as many back doors. While we may have fewer transitions buckets, it seems that those have come less frequently anyway as ACC schools adapt to our style (and we will still get plenty).

What I most look forward to is a shift in offensive style. For quite some time now, we too frequently have relied on 1-on-1 play from superstars (or whatever we have that approaches that status). Redick was the classic (deserved) case, but we continued with this approach afterward. While we will need Scheyer and Singler and someone else to make unscripted plays in crunch time, I would like to see what more structured offense we can employ.

I love the idea of having Scheyer surrounded by several big guys that can nail an open shot. Perhaps we can use motion to isolate our 2 or 3s in the paint, force doubles, then kick to Singler, Mason, Kelley or Scheyer for open shots. We certainly will need to adapt our style, but that will be great to watch (because our recent half-court offense has not been dominant despite good talent). I will gladly take the role of Spain competing with USA for the gold.

If the comparison of this team to a mid-major means we will have to execute a highly coordinated offense and expect all of our players to pass well and work their butts off to get advantages (because we do not have uber-talents to watch do their thing), I have no problem with it. At the end of the day, that is the end of the comparison because any mid major (and most BCS schools) would love to have the talent on our 2009-2010 team.

[UrinalCake]

The question is, who is surrounding Jon and Kyle? Do you realize they will get the most athletic defender any team has to offer? They will be keyed on so much due to our imbalanced lineup that I think we are smokin something to assume they can both put up the same numbers as previous years. This is bad folks,

Exactly... Kyle might present a mismatch to a defending 2, but when he's double-teamed who is he going to pass it to? The complementary players must be able to score too. And I think a zone defense will be very effective against us because we don't have consistent outside shooters or penetrating wings.

[Jaymf7]

Exactly... Kyle might present a mismatch to a defending 2, but when he's double-teamed who is he going to pass it to?

Hopefully the open guy. That guy will not always be on the three point line, but if he is, we have capable shooters in Smith, Scheyer and perhaps 1-2 of the freshman. If Kyle is not doubled, he will shoot over nearly any 2-3 in the ACC (heck, he shot over everyone in the league last year). Yes, we are placing a lot of weight on Kyle and Jon (and the other upperclassman), but that is what is expected.

How is this team possibly worse than 2005 -- in which we won 22 and made in to the NCAA? We have tons more inside, Nolan clearly beat out Paulus (the senior) last year and should improve this year, we have great upperclass experience, I will take Kyle any day over McBob, the list goes on.

Yes, we will lose some games due to foul trouble or injury issues, but we will also be able to play with just about anyone in the country on a given night.

[RockyMtDevil]

Ok, so nobody thinks we are a mid-major, then let's compare us to someone we will actually play next year in Wisconsin. If you switched jersey's these two teams will look very similar next season. I am sure none of us woke up in May thinking, "God if only Duke had Wisconsin's players..." In reality, we're pretty similar. Tons of tall white guys, a couple of guards (ok, literally) and very few playmakers if any. Neither team has anyone who can break you down offensively and both teams will rely heavily on hitting open jumpers and playing saging team defense.

We may very well tie them in December. Think we could move to the Big 10 next year? We might actually match up well against Northwestern, Penn St., Wisconsin, Minn., and Iowa.

[_Gary]

We still have Scheyer, Smith and Singler to initiate offense. I expect all 3 to improve in that regard. Hopefully Singler can emulate Grant Hill's court vision and point forward abilities on some level (recall 1994 was another Nat'l title game year when we relied so heavily on a versatile big).

Yikes. Comparing Kyle's style of play and his abilities with a senior Grant Hill is a bit much. Kyle doesn't have a wicked crossover and the type of pull-up jumper that Grant did. Nor does he have the silky slashing ability of a Grant Hill. Kyle can take his man off the dribble to a degree, but he's not in Grant Hill's league!

We will have issues initiating the offense against team's with athletic guards and wings that can apply ball pressure. As far as I'm concerned we only have one truly solid, face up ball handler who can penetrate through the teeth of a defense on this team. His name is Nolan Smith. Beyond him, we have adequate, smart ball handlers who can facilitate the offense. But that's not the same thing as what Grant Hill did as a point-forward. We do NOT have that type of player.

[CDu]

Playing with Reggie Love as a center in the 2001 ACC Tourney comes to mind. Granted, we had tons of talent on that (Nat'l Champ) team, but we managed to overcome adversity and a certain lack of balance. Of course, I agree that a Nat'l Championship is most unlikely this season without real backcourt depth, but we will still win lots of games.

And STILL that 2001 team wasn't nearly as unbalanced (for the brief time that Boozer was out). That team still had Sanders and Battier to start at the 4/5 spots, and Love and Christensen to back up. And they could go small with Battier and Dunleavy at the 4/5 when necessary. Love played limited minutes in that ACC tournament. And they compensated with the best 1-4 in the country with a great senior in James coming off the bench.

And even ignoring that, it's still easier to compensate in the post by going small and quicker than it is to compensate at guard/wing.



EWill was not a playmaker. He did not hit consistently from the outside. He had few assists. His important contributions (while Nolan was injured) related to defense and transition, and he will be missed. But he was not the guy who would be running the offense this year (at any time).



We still have Scheyer, Smith and Singler to initiate offense. I expect all 3 to improve in that regard. Hopefully Singler can emulate Grant Hill's court vision and point forward abilities on some level (recall 1994 was another Nat'l title game year when we relied so heavily on a versatile big). Again, I'm not predicting a final four, but talk of missing the NCAAs with this lineup is silly (absent a slew of serious injuries).

You are correct that Williams was not a ballhandler. But he was one of only two guys able to guard quicker PG, and he allowed Singler to not have to play out of position at the 2 guard spot (and similarly he allowed Thomas and Kelly to not play out of position at the 3 spot). And he provided SOME sort of buffer in the event of foul trouble and injury/illness.

Without him, we have Singler being forced to play way out of position. We have Thomas and/or Kelly being forced to play way out of position. And we lose some of the cushion in case some of Zoubek/Plumlee/Plumlee/Kelly aren't ready to be consistent contributors, because we lose 25-30 minutes of Williams.

It's not an overreaction in any way to say that this team has a major concern to deal with. And it's not an overreaction to say that this team will be very fortunate if they wind up a top 10-15 team.

[RockyMtDevil]

If this team winds up a 10-15 ranked team at the end of the season, a bonfire of the highest form is in order.

[_Gary]

I'm not predicting a final four, but talk of missing the NCAAs with this lineup is silly (absent a slew of serious injuries).

So it's going to take a slew of serious injuries before it's considered "silly" to talk about missing the NCAAs? I'd say that if we lost just one of Nolan/Jon/Kyle for half the season or more (God forbid) then we'd be in serious jeopardy of missing the Big Dance. That's all it would take. I'd pretty much guarantee that.

People may not want to admit it, but we are so razor thin right now at the 1, 2 and 3 positions it's not even funny. And I can't see anyway you compete with ACC teams without all three of our starters at those positions (Smith/Scheyer/Singler) playing night in and night out. And heavy minutes at that.

[Matches]

How is this team possibly worse than 2005 -- in which we won 22 and made in to the NCAA? We have tons more inside, Nolan clearly beat out Paulus (the senior) last year and should improve this year, we have great upperclass experience, I will take Kyle any day over McBob, the list goes on.



Woah - if by "tons more inside", you mean we have more warm bodies, then sure. But Shelden Williams clearly was more accomplished than all of the guys we'll have playing in the post next year put together. (I'm assuming Kyle will be on the wing.) The '05 team had limited depth and no true PG, but it had one of the best centers in the country and the best SG in the country. It had both size and speed and was able to defend adequately or better at all five positions.

We've had a lot of teams over the years that lacked depth - that's pretty much inevitable in this era of early entry - but the last time we had a team with this many gaping holes was... '96, maybe? Even that team isn't a great reference point for this one, because the personnel was so different. We're in uncharted territory.

[Jaymf7]

Woah - if by "tons more inside", you mean we have more warm bodies, then sure. But Shelden Williams clearly was more accomplished than all of the guys we'll have playing in the post next year put together. (I'm assuming Kyle will be on the wing.) The '05 team had limited depth and no true PG, but it had one of the best centers in the country and the best SG in the country. It had both size and speed and was able to defend adequately or better at all five positions.

We've had a lot of teams over the years that lacked depth - that's pretty much inevitable in this era of early entry - but the last time we had a team with this many gaping holes was... '96, maybe? Even that team isn't a great reference point for this one, because the personnel was so different. We're in uncharted territory.

Actually, that was a typo -- I meant 2007, the year we won 22 games and relied on McRoberts in the post. I still don't see the guard depth in the 94 Nat'l championship team. I'll take Smith and Scheyer over Capel and Collins, even if they had Marty Clark backing them up. Singler will never be Grant Hill (and this team will almost certainly not go to the title game), but if he can help run an offense we will be ok.

[Matches]

Actually, that was a typo -- I meant 2007, the year we won 22 games and relied on McRoberts in the post. I still don't see the guard depth in the 94 Nat'l championship team. I'll take Smith and Scheyer over Capel and Collins, even if they had Marty Clark backing them up. Singler will never be Grant Hill (and this team will almost certainly not go to the title game), but if he can help run an offense we will be ok.

As much as we like to bang on McR for all the things he didn't do, McR was one of the better post players in the ACC in 2007. If any of our current post players (or even all of them combined) contribute as much to the '10 team as McR did in '07 (minus the attitude), we'll be in pretty good shape.

re: the '94 team - I'd also take Smith/ Scheyer over Capel/ Collins. GHill could play the point for extended stretches in '94, though - Singler's a major stretch at the 2 and almost certainly will not log any PG minutes next year, though, unless he's absolutely forced to by foul problems or injuries. And as you note, the '94 team at least had Marty Clark to give the starters a rest once in awhile. It also had a future NBA lottery pick playing center.

[CDu]

As much as we like to bang on McR for all the things he didn't do, McR was one of the better post players in the ACC in 2007. If any of our current post players (or even all of them combined) contribute as much to the '10 team as McR did in '07 (minus the attitude), we'll be in pretty good shape.

And that team had another center (Zoubek) and three options at the forward spot (Nelson, Thomas, and McClure). That team was not remotely as unbalanced as this team will be.

[johnb]

Thank goodness there's a football season coming up!!!!:):cool:

Those are some encouraging words...

[G man]

Well coach K is a great coach not a good coach a great one! He is going to earn every dime this year. We probably are not going to be the most fun team to watch in the country, but if we can find ways to grind out games we should still be good. We have talent, I just worry about the match up problems.

[roywhite]

And that team had another center (Zoubek) and three options at the forward spot (Nelson, Thomas, and McClure). That team was not remotely as unbalanced as this team will be.

My recollection of the 2007 team is that Josh handled the ball a lot (and was good at that), but set up in the high post and was not a legitimate shooting threat. When defenses are able to sag off your supposed best player, things don't go well for your offense.

We'll have shooters on the 2009-10 team, and rebounders and ball handlers. Really, I don't look at it as an unbalanced team when talking about the likely starters (Nolan, Jon, Kyle, Mason P. and either Kelly or Lance). It's just an issue of backcourt depth, which is virtually nonexistent.

Knock on wood for good health and a low amount of foul trouble for key players.

But, given that, it could be a very formidable team. Fragile, but formidable, if you will...

[CDu]

My recollection of the 2007 team is that Josh handled the ball a lot (and was good at that), but set up in the high post and was not a legitimate shooting threat. When defenses are able to sag off your supposed best player, things don't go well for your offense.

We'll have shooters on the 2009-10 team, and rebounders and ball handlers. Really, I don't look at it as an unbalanced team when talking about the likely starters (Nolan, Jon, Kyle, Mason P. and either Kelly or Lance). It's just an issue of backcourt depth, which is virtually nonexistent.

Knock on wood for good health and a low amount of foul trouble for key players.

But, given that, it could be a very formidable team. Fragile, but formidable, if you will...

We'll have some shooters, but the lack of balance is in the lack of guards. That will show up on the defensive end, and it will show up on the pace of the game, and it will likely show up on the offensive end as we now lack the guys to beat people off the dribble. Singler could definitely beat big men off the dribble, but now he has to do it against guards, for example.

Saying "it's just an issue of backcourt depth" is accurate. But the "just" part of the statement is underestimating the impact of such a problem. Having a complete lack of backcourt depth (we have literally two guys suited to play the guard position on the team) is a big big deal. It may not be impossible to overcome, but it's going to be a lot more complicated than people seem to realize.

[theAlaskanBear]

As tough a loss this is for Duke, I think this is a necessary move and a good one for Williams. I wish he and his family the best!

Bottom line is this to all those wondering why Williams cant just "take a year off" and come back to Duke: Williams' future is in the NBA, and it would be unreasonable and stupid to not competitively play for a year. Sophomore growth/transition is one a year that determines the difference between being a star talent or an average talent to NBA scouts. Williams is making the best of a bad situation. Yes, college hoops is a fulltime job no matter where he is, but he wont be 10 hours away from family, and during home stretches and classes, he WILL be home. Plus if he ends up playing at Memphis, he will have a chance to be THE player (although I might be wrong, haven't seen teh roster lately) with Calipari and his crew gone.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

If this was mentioned elsewhere in the thread I apologize. I haven't read all the posts.

It seems like, reading Coach K's interviews, that it is almost as if this caught the team by surprise. Does anyone else get that feeling?

GO DUKE!

[roywhite]

We'll have some shooters, but the lack of balance is in the lack of guards. That will show up on the defensive end, and it will show up on the pace of the game, and it will likely show up on the offensive end as we now lack the guys to beat people off the dribble. Singler could definitely beat big men off the dribble, but now he has to do it against guards, for example.

Saying "it's just an issue of backcourt depth" is accurate. But the "just" part of the statement is underestimating the impact of such a problem. Having a complete lack of backcourt depth (we have literally two guys suited to play the guard position on the team) is a big big deal. It may not be impossible to overcome, but it's going to be a lot more complicated than people seem to realize.

Really, I don't disagree.

The lack of backcourt depth is likely a fatal flaw, so far as reaching the Final Four.

But I can deal with slightly lower expectations next year. Clearly, the team and coaches have their work cut out. But there'll be plenty to cheer about; the adjustments and final shape of the team will be very interesting to follow. We'll be capable of beating any team on our schedule.

[CDu]

Really, I don't disagree.

The lack of backcourt depth is likely a fatal flaw, so far as reaching the Final Four.

But I can deal with slightly lower expectations next year. Clearly, the team and coaches have their work cut out. But there'll be plenty to cheer about; the adjustments and final shape of the team will be very interesting to follow. We'll be capable of beating any team on our schedule.

And I believe the backcourt depth issue will likely be a more fatal flaw than just keeping us from the Final Four. I think it will make it difficult (though not impossible) for us to remain a Top-20 team. I think a Sweet-16 finish would be an amazing accomplishment for this year's team, and I'd be happy with a second-round appearance given the circumstances. And I certainly won't rule out missing the tournament if we lose Scheyer, Smith, or Singler for any serious length of time.

I see the best case scenario for this team being a top-10/15 team, and that's assuming everything goes as well as can realistically be expected. At the same time, I don't think we'll be terrible simply because we have enough talent to be at worst mediocre.

It will be an interesting season to follow, but it will also likely be a difficult season for the team. The level of optimism presented by some seems to either be overlooking that.

Again - I'm hopeful that I'm wrong, and will obviously be cheering against what I believe to be the case. But that doesn't mean that I have to ignore the situation as I see it.

[NSDukeFan]

We'll have some shooters, but the lack of balance is in the lack of guards. That will show up on the defensive end, and it will show up on the pace of the game, and it will likely show up on the offensive end as we now lack the guys to beat people off the dribble. Singler could definitely beat big men off the dribble, but now he has to do it against guards, for example.

Saying "it's just an issue of backcourt depth" is accurate. But the "just" part of the statement is underestimating the impact of such a problem. Having a complete lack of backcourt depth (we have literally two guys suited to play the guard position on the team) is a big big deal. It may not be impossible to overcome, but it's going to be a lot more complicated than people seem to realize.

I am one of the ones who feel our roster is not impossible to overcome, though I agree with you it will not be easy. I do think that for every action there is an opposite reaction though and the game of basketball is played at the highest levels by tall people. I will agree with you wholeheartedly that our lack of guards will make it very difficult to match up with quick teams on the perimeter.

But...I think that we will be able to take advantage of some mismatches on the other end, and hopefully when we get beat defensively we will still be able to contest shots due to our height advantage.

I agree that Singler may have more trouble beating guards off the dribble than forwards, but I feel that he should be able to more easily shoot over these guards and post them up easier and rebound over them easier. I also agree that we may have more trouble getting dribble penetration next year, though I still expect Nolan to provide a lot in this regard and Kyle and Jon to provide some (though I think Jon is better penetrating via cutting and receiving passes and is great drawing fouls this way) against all but the quickest defenders.

But #2...I think we won't be relying on dribble penetration as much as I think we will be using the post and passing inside a lot more this year than we have in the last several years. This is part wishful thinking, as I was hoping we would do more of that with Z last year, and part based on some comments from K that I had heard before this latest news and part just due to the makeup of our roster. I also hope we become a better rebounding team, though we were much stronger than I had expected in that regard last year.

I do wish we had more quality guards and I do like quickness more than size, but in the game of basketball, size is still important and we have lots of it. I hope we can use it to compensate for our lack of depth at guard. I very much look forward to finding out.

[dukelifer]

I admire the positive attitude people are taking, but I do think it's unrealistic to expect a top 10-15 team this year. Maybe if everything plays out just right we'll be top 10-15, but we shouldn't EXPECT everything to play out just right.

Yes, there is talent. Scheyer and Singler should be 1st- or 2nd-team All-ACC this year. Yes, there is potential. Smith, the Plumlees, and Kelly all have promise. And you never know what you'll get from Thomas and Zoubek as seniors.

But there is just no precedent in this era of basketball for a team being successful with so few guards. Guard play is so important to success in today's game. It's hard to compete without it.

I hope I'm wrong, and I'll be cheering against my opinion all season. But I really do believe that you can compete without a post presence but you can't compete without guards. We have two talented guards, but we don't have anyone else. I think that's going to make things very difficult.

I agree. If Duke plays its usual way- they are going to struggle at some point in the season because teams will find a way to take advantage. For Duke to win late in the season (second time through the league)- they will need almost perfect play from Scheyer and Smith (never fouling out or getting in serious foul trouble and not getting injured) and some ability to adapt in real time. That is asking a lot- almost impossible. So I believe the best we can hope for this season is massive growth in Smith, Kelly, Czyz and the Plumlees because they will be only upper classmen left as Singler may move on after this season. Thus I hope we will be seeing the young guys thrown into the fire right from the start. Duke has to try every trick invented and steal pages from Euro teams that tend to play with a number of big versatile players. The future is now and the young guys have to grow up in a hurry. It will be a very interesting season for sure. To go from top 4 (with glimmer of hope that G would stay) to a top 10-15 to a rebuilding year is tough but other teams have struggled momentarily in their history and come back strong. The guys will no doubt compete. The coaching staff will need to put on their thinking caps and figure it out. Everything in book suggests that it will be a brutal season- and yet it is still going to be very exciting because Duke just might come out of it very strong.

[CDu]

I agree that Singler may have more trouble beating guards off the dribble than forwards, but I feel that he should be able to more easily shoot over these guards and post them up easier and rebound over them easier. I also agree that we may have more trouble getting dribble penetration next year, though I still expect Nolan to provide a lot in this regard and Kyle and Jon to provide some (though I think Jon is better penetrating via cutting and receiving passes and is great drawing fouls this way) against all but the quickest defenders.

I'm glad you brign this up. Singler posting up small guards is a great idea in a vacuum, but the problem is that it gets a lot more difficult to post up when there are multiple other post players on the floor. We can't easily isolate Singler on the blocks against a guard if Zoubek and Thomas or a Plumlee are the 4 and 5, and that's the scenario that will be in play.

When Kelly and Mason Plumlee are the 4 and 5, we may be able to get away with it (if Mason can shoot from the perimeter) because those guys will be able to draw their men further from the paint. But floor spacing issues are going to make posting up Singler a lot more difficult when we have big non-shooters on the floor.

It's not impossible - it's just a lot more difficult.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

Granted we only have a couple of "guards" per se, but isn't the key how well some of our big men dribble, more than if they are guards or not in the traditional sense? I look around the NBA and seems like there are some really tall guards out there. Why can't Mason (for example) behave like a guard for a few minutes to spell Jon or something along those lines? If some of our big men have good ball handling skills, does it matter that they aren't traditional guards? Last year we didn't have guys beating other guys off of the dribble too often. We haven't really had that in a while. So maybe things won't be all that different, when all is said and done, from last year?

GO DUKE!

[NSDukeFan]

I'm glad you brign this up. Singler posting up small guards is a great idea in a vacuum, but the problem is that it gets a lot more difficult to post up when there are multiple other post players on the floor. We can't easily isolate Singler on the blocks against a guard if Zoubek and Thomas or a Plumlee are the 4 and 5, and that's the scenario that will be in play.

When Kelly and Mason Plumlee are the 4 and 5, we may be able to get away with it (if Mason can shoot from the perimeter) because those guys will be able to draw their men further from the paint. But floor spacing issues are going to make posting up Singler a lot more difficult when we have big non-shooters on the floor.

It's not impossible - it's just a lot more difficult.

I agree completely and expect Kelly and Mason to be able to drag their defenders out of the key on occasion due to their perimeter skills (I am hopeful here as they have obviously not proven this at the NCAA level). If Kyle has a mismatch down low with Z on the floor, I would also hope we could take advantage of that by using him in a high-low situation or as a screener off the ball. Either way, I look forward to using the post more next year, whether it is Kyle or others.

I think your last line is exactly right for next year in terms of us advancing to the second weekend of the NCAA tournament, winning the ACC and being a top 15 team. May health and lack of backcourt foul trouble be with us.

[Greg_Newton]

Duke has to try every trick invented and steal pages from Euro teams that tend to play with a number of big versatile players.

If there is ever a time when K's experience coaching Team USA internationally will hopefully pay off, this should be it...

[Tim1515]

So apparently Elliot is going to transfer to either Memphis, Tennessee, Vanderbilt or Kentucky...does that sound odd to anyone else?

[johaad]

So apparently Elliot is going to transfer to either Memphis, Tennessee, Vanderbilt or Kentucky...does that sound odd to anyone else?

I still think he goes to Memphis. I know he said those were his choices but I just don't think he is the type of kid that would do that to Duke. In a situation like he is in, it is only logical for him to be close to home. For him, close to home is Memphis. I will be shocked if he goes any place else (especially UK).

[roywhite]

I still think he goes to Memphis. I know he said those were his choices but I just don't think he is the type of kid that would do that to Duke. In a situation like he is in, it is only logical for him to be close to home. For him, close to home is Memphis. I will be shocked if he goes any place else (especially UK).

Probably so. I would have a hard time justifying a waiver from the transfer eligibility restrictions if he goes anywhere but Memphis.

[Tim1515]

Probably so. I would have a hard time justifying a waiver from the transfer eligibility restrictions if he goes anywhere but Memphis.

I was a big fan of Elliot as a person but i have to admit i've lost some respect for him for just saying he's looking at his college options let alone having Kentucky on that list in another state.

[Kewlswim]

I was a big fan of Elliot as a person but i have to admit i've lost some respect for him for just saying he's looking at his college options let alone having Kentucky on that list in another state.

Hi,

I am heartbroken, just devastated reading that list of schools. It is like, OK you want to transfer, transfer, but be man enough to say that. Using a sick relative to get a waiver, well, that just rings hollow to me now.

Make me feel better. Is it possible he has to do this because there might not be a spot for him in Memphis or UT-Knoxville so he has to look elsewhere just in case? :-(

GO DUKE! (I am getting sick of what I perceive as digs at Coach K)

[Bluedog]

So apparently Elliot is going to transfer to either Memphis, Tennessee, Vanderbilt or Kentucky...does that sound odd to anyone else?

Here's a link:

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/jun/25/choices-transferring-guard-elliot-williams-memphis/


"The Duke staff and the fans have given me and my whole family a lot of support. To be totally honest with you, if this illness wouldn't have happened, I'd still be at Duke," Williams said.

But come on, UK?!? That's still a 6 hour drive to Memphis...

[_Gary]

I'm not gonna lie. Reading those quotes from Elliot really bother me, especially including UK on the list. I just don't get that at all. :(

[bgibbs1001]

I'm not gonna lie. Reading those quotes from Elliot really bother me, especially including UK on the list. I just don't get that at all. :(

I do. But if I say what I really feel I'll be banned.

[beach rev]

Kentucky...really? UT-K? As my late father use to say, something doesn't smell right here.

[SMO]

I'm not gonna lie. Reading those quotes from Elliot really bother me, especially including UK on the list. I just don't get that at all. :(

Hell, I'm surprised he didn't have GaTech on the list! UK is 420 miles from Memphis! I wish EWill and his family the best and agree that the inclusion of UK is very odd.

[dukelifer]

Kentucky...really? UT-K? As my late father use to say, something doesn't smell right here.

Here is a thought- just a thought. He knows Cal- Cal recruited him hard. There is a pretty good chance that he is not playing next season- so he is looking for the next place to play. KY will have slots after next year- so he is simply checking it out.

[geraldsneighbor]

If he goes to UK, that release looks really bad. If he goes to anywhere but Memphis, I would be STUNNED if the NCAA lets him play right away.

[Greg_Newton]

Here is a thought- just a thought. He knows Cal- Cal recruited him hard. There is a pretty good chance that he is not playing next season- so he is looking for the next place to play. KY will have slots after next year- so he is simply checking it out.

If he's not going to play next season, why wouldn't he just take time off and come back to Duke? There would really be no justification for leaving Durham to go to Lexington, (or really, Knoxville either). 400 miles away isn't all that different from 700 miles in this context.

He always seemed like a good kid so I'll reserve judgment, but he's not doing himself any favors by how he seems to be handling the situation. If you say you're leaving a program because of a family medical situation, that better darn well be the reason your leaving and that should be the major factor in deciding where you go. If he doesn't end up at Memphis, I will be very disappointed.

[UrinalCake]

Here is a thought- just a thought. He knows Cal- Cal recruited him hard. There is a pretty good chance that he is not playing next season- so he is looking for the next place to play. KY will have slots after next year- so he is simply checking it out.

He would have to pay his own way next year since Kentucky is out of scholarships.

[weezie]

Just a peek at the college basketball world that we are largely shielded from.
What a meat market.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

He would have to pay his own way next year since Kentucky is out of scholarships.

Now that's a funny joke...

[Kedsy]

I think high school talent generally works out well, we just need to stop using McDAA as a useful watermark for that talent. Instead, just focus on where the player was actually ranked numbers-wise. Some one can correct me if I wrong, but I believe we only have one player on the team that was ranked in the Top 20 of their high school class, and he's certainly met and, in my opinion, exceeded his expectations at Duke so far.

Using Rivals rankings in appropriate high school class:

Singler #5
Kelly #20
Zoubek #24
Smith #39
Thomas #42
MP2 #55
Scheyer #71
MP1 #101
Czyz #112

Also, I think the downers out there are thinking too inside the box, at least with regards to offense. In K's Chronicle interview he says Duke will be playing a motion offense in 09-10. This was before Elliot announced he was leaving, but I assume they'll still be playing this in the half court. What I believe this means is that they won't need a traditional PG and they won't necessarily need an ankle-breaking 1 on 1 player (although it's always fun to have one -- how about Nolan?). They'll need a team of guys who are willing to constantly move, pass well, and convert over their defender when they get the ball in good position. The way I see it, every single player on this team (except probably OC and possibly Lance) are good touch passers and all of them should be able to convert a good look over a shorter player. Conditioning will be key, of course, and that may be an issue with so few wing options available, but count me in for drinking the cool aid because I don't think offense is going to be that big of an issue.

Defense is a whole 'nother can of worms. All I can say to those who assert that Kyle and Lance can't guard small, quick players is, how often have we seen them try? How big a sample size are you relying on for your opinion? Maybe you're right and they can't do it but IMO it's certainly not proven and until it is, I'm holding out hope. Because if they can, then they are the guard depth. If they can't, then we all have to hope Nolan and Jon never get hurt or into foul trouble. But we were hoping that anyway, right?

Having said all that, I agree we may look like a more talented Wisconsin. But the key there is "more talented." With their savvy and style of play, if Wisconsin had more athletic talent they'd be a pretty tough out most years in the NCAAs.

[Kedsy]

Incidentally, I know someone who was at the Duke basketball camp this week and he was telling me about the camp dunk contest. He reports that Nolan looks amazing out there and incredibly athletic and that MP2 is also quite the athlete. We also know that OC has astonishing hops and Lance can really run, and also gets off the floor pretty well, and MP1 is pretty athletic for a big guy. And I for one don't think Kyle gets enough credit for his athleticism.

My point is maybe we're not going to be as slow and unathletic as many people here seem to think.

[Owen Meany]

I too will be very disappointed if EWill chooses UK. But I am withholding judgment and taking the young man at his word - that he is transferring due to a family medical situation. It is possible he intends to attend Memphis but named other schools to avoid the appearance of any impropriety - i.e. that he and Pastner discussed his situation before he officially asked for his release from Duke. While that would not be completely above board, I doubt that very few players actually ask for transfers without first sending out "feelers" or having informal "what if" discussions with the school thay wish to attend (whether it be personally or through those close to them). IF EWill 's mom is sick and he wants to go back home, I would hardly blame him or those close to him if they had checked with Pastner to see if he would accept him. If he were to announce for Memphis immediately upon his release I'm sure their would be accusations of tampering - so he may just be going through the motions for the sake of appearances. If he does choose Mempis, despite the uncertainty facing that program, it will be clear that he chose to leave Duke for non-basketball reasons (family). Everything will be clear soon enough. But I don't think Duke fans have anything to gain by jumping the gun and coming to premature conclusions about the motives of a young man who, according to many reports, is facing a very serious family crisis.

It is also possible (although less likely) that his mom could receive treatment at UK, he has other family there, etc. THere may be circumstances that we haven't considered. But again, everyone will know soon enough. I personally think he ends up at Memphis, although I would like to see him at Vanderbilt, if that is considerably closer to home, given its academic status.

[Kewlswim]

I too will be very disappointed if EWill chooses UK. But I am withholding judgment and taking the young man at his word - that he is transferring due to a family medical situation. It is possible he intends to attend Memphis but named other schools to avoid the appearance of any impropriety - i.e. that he and Pastner discussed his situation before he officially asked for his release from Duke. While that would not be completely above board, I doubt that very few players actually ask for transfers without first sending out "feelers" or having informal "what if" discussions with the school thay wish to attend (whether it be personally or through those close to them). IF EWill 's mom is sick and he wants to go back home, I would hardly blame him or those close to him if they had checked with Pastner to see if he would accept him. If he were to announce for Memphis immediately upon his release I'm sure their would be accusations of tampering - so he may just be going through the motions for the sake of appearances. If he does choose Mempis, despite the uncertainty facing that program, it will be clear that he chose to leave Duke for non-basketball reasons (family). Everything will be clear soon enough. But I don't think Duke fans have anything to gain by jumping the gun and coming to premature conclusions about the motives of a young man who, according to many reports, is facing a very serious family crisis.

It is also possible (although less likely) that his mom could receive treatment at UK, he has other family there, etc. THere may be circumstances that we haven't considered. But again, everyone will know soon enough. I personally think he ends up at Memphis, although I would like to see him at Vanderbilt, if that is considerably closer to home, given its academic status.

Hi,

Why can't EWill's Mom get treatment at Duke? Is it against NCAA rules for a student-athlete's Mom to receive treatment at the school where the student has an athletic scholarship? I wouldn't think it would matter, but the NCAA has some bizarre (at least to me) rules.

GO DUKE!

[Kewlswim]

Incidentally, I know someone who was at the Duke basketball camp this week and he was telling me about the camp dunk contest. He reports that Nolan looks amazing out there and incredibly athletic and that MP2 is also quite the athlete. We also know that OC has astonishing hops and Lance can really run, and also gets off the floor pretty well, and MP1 is pretty athletic for a big guy. And I for one don't think Kyle gets enough credit for his athleticism.

My point is maybe we're not going to be as slow and unathletic as many people here seem to think.

Hi,

After all we (practically) only have a bunch of guys nobody else wants on their team. Reading some of these posts makes me think that Coach K does not know how to recruit and we only get bad athletes. We don't even recruit top players according to some of these people.

It is incredible really. Coach K is now supposed to be clairvoyant! He is supposed to know when a kid's family member is going to be ill or not, when a kid will get sick (ie our Cal Berkeley Dukie), and that a kid who says he is coming won't change his mind. Golly, I want some of this clairvoyance. It would sure help with my stock picks.

GO DUKE!

[CameronBornAndBred]

According to the article referenced by the front page (http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/jun/25/choices-transferring-guard-elliot-williams-memphis/), Kentucky is one of the schools Ewill is considering. I don't see how this can be an option even if both sides wanted it. Isn't Calipari already having to boot people to make room for his new recruits? They can't have a scholarship available. I guess Elliot could walk on, but he'd have to pay, and I imagine with his mom being sick they are watching their finances pretty tightly.

[miramar]

University of Memphis to...

Duke 720 miles (11:28 driving time)

University of Kentucky 415 miles (6:25)

University of Tennessee 382 miles (5:54)

Vanderbilt 204 miles (3:09)

He is getting closer, but something does not add up.

[_Gary]

If he goes to any school other than Memphis I definitely cry foul. Plus, I have a hard time believing Duke and the NCAA would allow for this medical exemption/exception if he doesn't stay very close to home.

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

If he goes to any school other than Memphis I definitely cry foul. Plus, I have a hard time believing Duke and the NCAA would allow for this medical exemption/exception if he doesn't stay very close to home.

Unless he simply doesn't like Duke but also doesn't want to make them look bad... Then it may be in Duke's best interest to let him go without fighting anything. It could be his mom's sick and he wants to be closer to home and that could just be that's what pushed him over the top away from duke (among other things that he wasn't happy with). Pure speculation though.

[Bluedog]

I know Elliot's loftiest goal is to make the NBA, but I find it hard to believe that when choosing a college he wouldn't consider academics at all. I'm sorry, but Memphis is not even close to the same league as Duke academically (FOURTH tier school according to US News, wherein each tier has around 70 schools, while Duke is ranked 8th in the first tier). If he doesn't make it in professional basketball (and we all know how unpredictable that can be), having a solid diploma to fall back on seems like a wise decision. I know that Elliot was a solid student in high school, so you'd think he'd be one to consider academics. If that is the case, it seems like a given that he should choose Vanderbilt as its greatly superior to his other choices (Vandy = 18; TN = 108, UK = 116; Memphis = Tier 4, no specific rank; Ole Miss, which has also been rumored = Tier 3). Now if the NCAA only grants the special release waiver for Memphis, he has no choice. This seems like the likely destination right now. But to choose UK over Vandy would seem like pure insanity to me (much farther from home, prob won't get waiver, worse academically, and possibly no scholarships available). Do players really not consider academics when transferring? Having schools like Vanderbilt and Memphis on the same list is honestly laughable for most people unless you're an athlete, I guess. Note that I'm not trying to bash Memphis. I'm sure you can get a solid education from there and many people have. I'm just using it as an example to illustrate that the decision making of basketball players sometimes is bizarre, IMO. I'd think the academic reputation would at least play some role for the vast majority of prospects, but it seems to make little difference except for a very slim segment of athletes like Zoubek (who considered Princeton, Duke, and Stanford, IIRC). And this is knowing the fact that Elliot was a great student in high school (near a 4.0, I believe). Anyways...

[Duke of Nashville]

I live in Nashville and out of all the schools listed I would hope that he went to Vandy. I could atleast try and grab a home game or two and wear all my Duke stuff. : )

EWill was one of my favorite players last year but family is first and I hope his mom pulls through just fine.

[SupaDave]

After reading a lot of these posts, is it any wonder that he wants to move closer to home? He most certainly doesn't seem to be getting the SUPPORT he needs - only questions about his motives.

This is ridiculous to question the motives of a young person when he has a sick family member and it really needs to stop. My roommate and one of my best friends mom's died from cancer when we were in college. We had to let our apartment go so he could move back to Durham and help take care of her. He was no basketball player but he remained enrolled and commuted to school EVERY DAY. Durham to Greensboro would be a walk in the park for me now but as a college student it was a huge expense and quite timely.

Let Elliot work things out his own way and wish him the best. Otherwise the speculation needs to stop and the focus needs to go back on the current team we have.

[CameronBornAndBred]

After reading a lot of these posts, is it any wonder that he wants to move closer to home? He most certainly doesn't seem to be getting the SUPPORT he needs - only questions about his motives.

Of the above posts I don't see any that are not supportive of his decision. I think there are some legitimate questions as to why he would consider some of the schools he has listed.

[Tom B.]

University of Memphis to...

Duke 720 miles (11:28 driving time)

University of Kentucky 415 miles (6:25)

University of Tennessee 382 miles (5:54)

Vanderbilt 204 miles (3:09)

He is getting closer, but something does not add up.



I could understand UT, if he can't get on scholarship right away someplace else and needs an in-state public option in case he has to pay his own way for a year. The Kentucky thing is a little puzzling, though. If proximity to Memphis is the main concern, then yes, Kentucky is in a neighboring state, but it's hardly next door, nor is it even an easy two or three-hour drive. I did a little research, and here is a non-exhaustive alphabetical list of schools (major conference and mid-major) closer to Memphis than UK:

Alabama
Arkansas
Evansville
Georgia Tech
Illinois
LSU
Memphis (duh)
Mississippi (actually closer than all the others except U. of Memphis -- about 85 miles away)
Mississippi State
Missouri
Missouri State
Saint Louis
Southern Illinois
Southern Mississippi
Tennessee
Tulsa
UAB
Vanderbilt
Western Kentucky

[miramar]

The N&O notes how important Williams would be for Memphis:

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/1584101.html

[Troublemaker]

Okay, I'm confused. Why is there so much puzzlement around Elliot's transfer choices?

When I read that he was considering UTK, Vandy, and UK in addition to Memphis, I thought to myself, "Oh, okay. So he doesn't necessarily need to see his mom every day. He just wants a closer drive so he can visit her more conveniently."

What more needs to be explained than that? What am I missing?

Best wishes to the Williams'. My thoughts/prayers are with them.

[InSpades]

Shocking as it may seem... sometimes people have ulterior motives for what they do. I agree that it is wrong for us to insinuate that Elliot has such motives (at least initially). Listing Kentucky as a possible destination is a bit dubious though. It is 400+ miles away from his home. Is it closer than Durham? Sure. Does it make it seem like he's transferring to be close to his mother? Not really. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as long as he picks a school within a few hours of where his mother will be living. Not that he really cares if I give him the benefit of the doubt but... it will be the deciding factor in whether I root for him to do well next year.

[pfrduke]

It’s been pretty difficult because, I mean, I’m coming from a great situation at Duke, which has been nothing but good to me.

The Duke staff and the fans have given me and my whole family a lot of support. To be totally honest with you, if this illness wouldn’t have happened, I’d still be at Duke.

I choose to believe the kid, given no reason not to. He didn't have to say any of that, but he did.

Plus, Cal and Pearl recruited him as a high schooler, and likely formed at least some relationship with him. They're less unknown than Pastner, whom Elliott had not met until this week. In times of trouble, people tend to gravitate to the known, rather than the unknown.

[geraldsneighbor]

I choose to believe the kid, given no reason not to. He didn't have to say any of that, but he did.

Plus, Cal and Pearl recruited him as a high schooler, and likely formed at least some relationship with him. They're less unknown than Pastner, whom Elliott had not met until this week. In times of trouble, people tend to gravitate to the known, rather than the unknown.

Which is a reason he should have stayed at Duke. Not only would already know the coach, but he would have a locker room full of teammates he knows too.

[Troublemaker]

Shocking as it may seem... sometimes people have ulterior motives for what they do. I agree that it is wrong for us to insinuate that Elliot has such motives (at least initially). Listing Kentucky as a possible destination is a bit dubious though. It is 400+ miles away from his home. Is it closer than Durham? Sure. Does it make it seem like he's transferring to be close to his mother? Not really. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as long as he picks a school within a few hours of where his mother will be living. Not that he really cares if I give him the benefit of the doubt but... it will be the deciding factor in whether I root for him to do well next year.

On what basis did you decide that his motives are dubious? Is it your extensive knowledge of the ailment afflicting his mother? Nope, that information was never released. Or was it the bevy of self-contradictory statements that he made? Actually, you'd have to point those out to me because I can't think of a single one.

The only thing Elliot has said is that his mother is ill and he wants to be "closer to home." He never said he needed to see her every day or that distance will be the sole determining factor on where he goes to school. Why, then, are we accusing him of lying and rooting against him if he doesn't transfer to a location within an X-mile radius of home? It's funny to me how caught up in the distance numbers we are getting. What's the mathematical formula to determine an honorable radius for his relocation? Would it function like a tipping point -- "200 miles, he'll always be a Dukie, 201 miles and he's evil scum"? If you graph it and integrate, do you get a sin curve?

Let's say he does choose Kentucky, the location that is farthest away among his choices. Going to school in Lexington would save him ten hours round trip on his drive home. You and others may scoff at such a pittance of time saved, but you're not Elliot Williams. You're not aware of what his family situation is, of what his mother's specific illness is, of how meaningful to him that ten extra hours spent with family per trip home would be, of how many more trips he can make given that time saved, etc.

You may ask, "Why doesn't he just go to Memphis then and be with family all the time?" But, again, when did he ever state that distance will be the sole determining factor? Aren't these personal family decisions allowed to be more nuanced than that? To him and his family, distance eliminated Durham but doesn't eliminate Lexington, and we have no information to suggest that such a determination is illogical or dishonest. There are nuances in the decision that we are just not aware of because we are not Elliot Williams nor are we his family, and I don't see why we wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt given our complete lack of information.

[kinghoops]

but i think the real question here is whats wrong at duke? just a run of bad luck? me personally doesnt think luck run that bad. and uk being considered smells fishy to me. maybe instead of going on book signing tours and team usa duties, home needs to be taken care of, just my opinion

[InSpades]

So if he said "I want to be closer to home" and transfered to Chapel Hill you wouldn't think anything was weird? Chapel Hill is closer to Memphis than Durham. Surely there is a distance far enough from Memphis where you'd think "that's BS, he just wanted to leave Duke", right? Or are we not allowed to question anyone's motives here and just have to take everyone at their word? I thought this was a message board and speculation was allowed.

I'm still giving him the benefit of the doubt and I expect he really did just want to be closer to his mother and will end up at Memphis. If he goes to Kentucky then what he has said rings a bit hollow with me (and apparently a few other people). A 14+ hour round trip isn't really very realistic. Is he gonna do that during the season? I really doubt it.

[Bob Green]

maybe instead of going on book signing tours and team usa duties, home needs to be taken care of, just my opinion

I disagree. As a Duke fan, I consider myself extremely lucky to root for a team with a quality coach at the helm. I still remember sitting in front of the TV in my San Diego apartment watching Duke lose to Washington in the first round of the NCAA Tournament in 1984. After the clock ran out and we had lost, the light bulb turned on in my head, as I realized Coach K was a dynamite young coach and Duke was going to win NCAA Tournament games in bunches with him at the helm. Nothing has happened, over the past 25 years, to change my opinion.

Times are tough, at this specific moment in time, but the future of Duke basketball is bright. The 2010 class is shaping up to be a really good one and under Coach K's leadership Duke is going to win a lot more NCAA tournament games.

[SMO]

After reading a lot of these posts, is it any wonder that he wants to move closer to home? He most certainly doesn't seem to be getting the SUPPORT he needs - only questions about his motives.

This is ridiculous to question the motives of a young person when he has a sick family member and it really needs to stop. My roommate and one of my best friends mom's died from cancer when we were in college. We had to let our apartment go so he could move back to Durham and help take care of her. He was no basketball player but he remained enrolled and commuted to school EVERY DAY. Durham to Greensboro would be a walk in the park for me now but as a college student it was a huge expense and quite timely.

Let Elliot work things out his own way and wish him the best. Otherwise the speculation needs to stop and the focus needs to go back on the current team we have.

C'mon, man. Elliott's leaving because he's not getting support from the DBR forum? Seriously?

Your friend's choice, though admirable, is a tough comparison to make given that he was commuting from Durham to Greensboro. Having known this person, wouldn't you question why someone would move 6 hours from home to be "closer" to an ailing relative? The UK thing has caused people to question why Elliott would mention going there and that seems like a fair question given the circumstances. He could have family there, etc, but I don't think it's shocking or offensive that people ask each other why UK would be on his list.

You suggest we focus on the current team. Fine, then don't post on the "Elliott's Leaving" string!

[Duke12]

I am trying to get to the next play but simply can't. If Duke is truly Eliott's dream, his mom should encourage him to stay, take a leave of absence or get her care at one of the world's best medical centers. What am I missing?

[Troublemaker]

So if he said "I want to be closer to home" and transfered to Chapel Hill you wouldn't think anything was weird? Chapel Hill is closer to Memphis than Durham. Surely there is a distance far enough from Memphis where you'd think "that's BS, he just wanted to leave Duke", right? Or are we not allowed to question anyone's motives here and just have to take everyone at their word? I thought this was a message board and speculation was allowed.

I'm still giving him the benefit of the doubt and I expect he really did just want to be closer to his mother and will end up at Memphis. If he goes to Kentucky then what he has said rings a bit hollow with me (and apparently a few other people). A 14+ hour round trip isn't really very realistic. Is he gonna do that during the season? I really doubt it.

Actually, not all types of speculation are allowed here, but since I didn't delete your post, censorship isn't the issue. If you post an opinion, people can respond to it, even critically; this is, as you point out, a message board.

Here's my take on what's happening. The people who are questioning Elliot's motives are not allowing him and his family to take other factors into consideration besides distance from home. Why? I don't know. As I said, most decisions are nuanced and not one-dimensional. Why can't transferring to UTK, Vandy, or UK be the best compromise his family can find between distance and other factors? Why couldn't they have decided that they're comfortable with Elliot being half a day's drive away or less?

Examples of other factors they may be considering. Let's say the family is also concerned about possible NCAA sanctions against Memphis or that its program will wilt without Calipari. Or that Conference USA stinks and isn't on TV enough. Mom wants to see her son more often but, at the same time, place him in a good situation for his future career. Dad wants to make sure the coach is someone the family is familiar with and had recruited Elliot before. They add up these factors and others (one could imagine a dozen or so possible considerations) and decide that Lexington is the best compromise. What's the big deal?

We just don't have enough information to be so accusatory. Plus, it's unseemly.

[PaIronDuke]

I try to read most DBR postings with an open mind, being a '54 graduate of this great university, but frankly I've been greatly disappointed in the speculative, self-absorbed, entitled tone of many posts on this kid's personal dilemma. I'm a big fan of DBR, but c'mon, guys, count your blessings from Duke athletics, show some class, and let this situation play out on its own........

[Crisker]

I try to read most DBR postings with an open mind, being a '54 graduate of this great university, but frankly I've been greatly disappointed in the speculative, self-absorbed, entitled tone of many posts on this kid's personal dilemma. I'm a big fan of DBR, but c'mon, guys, count your blessings from Duke athletics, show some class, and let this situation play out on its own........

Amen. The last few pages of this thread are pathetic. Does it really matter where he goes? Or what his motivations are? What is done is done. I could not agree more: "show some class" and move on.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I am trying to get to the next play but simply can't. If Duke is truly Eliott's dream, his mom should encourage him to stay, take a leave of absence or get her care at one of the world's best medical centers. What am I missing?
You are missing everything that you don't know. You don't know their financial situation. If she doesn't have the means, she sure as hell isn't going to be treated at Duke. You don't know what the illness is. Maybe the illness itself places severe restrictions on her own ability to travel. You don't know how long or short term the illness is, and if it's long term a leave of absence makes no sense.
You DO know Elliot is her son. Mom's come first in most kid's eyes. I would be there for my mom, and tell her to forget it if she told me to stay in Durham just so I could play for Duke. A 22 hour round trip so I could go home and be with her as often as I could, plus pull the workload that Duke requires academically, does not sound feasable while also trying to play a sport, especially during the season.

[InSpades]

Actually, not all types of speculation are allowed here, but since I didn't delete your post, censorship isn't the issue. If you post an opinion, people can respond to it, even critically; this is, as you point out, a message board.

Here's my take on what's happening. The people who are questioning Elliot's motives are not allowing him and his family to take other factors into consideration besides distance from home. Why? I don't know. As I said, most decisions are nuanced and not one-dimensional. Why can't transferring to UTK, Vandy, or UK be the best compromise his family can find between distance and other factors? Why couldn't they have decided that they're comfortable with Elliot being half a day's drive away or less?

Examples of other factors they may be considering. Let's say the family is also concerned about possible NCAA sanctions against Memphis or that its program will wilt without Calipari. Or that Conference USA stinks and isn't on TV enough. Mom wants to see her son more often but, at the same time, place him in a good situation for his future career. Dad wants to make sure the coach is someone the family is familiar with and had recruited Elliot before. They add up these factors and others (one could imagine a dozen or so possible considerations) and decide that Lexington is the best compromise. What's the big deal?

We just don't have enough information to be so accusatory. Plus, it's unseemly.

Obviously anything is possible. Just like it is possible that he wasn't happy at Duke and wanted to leave. Ignoring that possibility is just as ridiculous as ignoring the possibility that Lexington is the best place for him to be for him and his family. We will likely never know the whole truth, hence the speculation.

For the record I never accused him of anything. I just pointed out that listing Kentucky among his school choices would give people reason to question his motives. If he listed 4 schools within a few hours of Memphis I doubt anyone would think twice about it.

In other news... I find it extremely unlikely that the NCAA would grant him an exception to play at Kentucky so I think it will probably be a moot point. He won't want to sit out a year if he can avoid it.

[DUKIE V(A)]

I hope that everything works out for Elliot and his family. I will root hard for HIM even if he ends up at Kentucky. To me, he is a class act who seemed to handle himself with class throughout his time at Duke. He seemed like he was a great teammate even when he wasn't playing very much. He's a bright kid who lots of potential on and off the court. I am sorry he can't finish at Duke, but I take him at his word and feel positive that he had a lot of great things to say about Duke. (And Coach K about him by the way.) In the end, Elliot and Duke will be just fine basketball wise. Let's just hope and pray his mom will be also.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

I don't think most people on here have done anything wrong or shown little class. People think it is odd that a kid who wants to be close to home in Memphis would pick UK to attend. I don't think most of us are thinking about it because it is Kentucky, but because a ton of schools are closer and all in all it does not seem that much closer than just staying at Duke.

I will add a little something I haven't read anyone write about in this thread. I spent a bit (ok a lot, but I don't want to admit it ;-p ) of my youth in Kentucky. Aren't there a ton of back roads one would need to drive to get to Lexington? As the crow flies UK could be seen as closer than Durham to Memphis, I am not all that sure that once one counts actual driving time if it is all that much (if any) closer.

Any Kentuckians want to chyme in here? I am not talking about the freeways, I am talking about how it is to actually get to UK. I could be wrong here, it has been a LONG time since I've been in the Bluegrass state and I spent most of that time in Louisville.

GO DUKE!

[jipops]

The sniping about Elliot's possible destination is ridiculous. How about just focus on the facts and not the speculation. The kid's mom is sick and he's no longer at Duke. Those are the facts so why don't we just throw support his support based solely on this?

As for the guys now available to suit up - an immense challenge is ahead. Despite the rankings of many of the available players when coming out of high school, I see this being a squad having an extremely difficult time getting into the tournament. Pretty much every facet of the game that has been valued under K's tenure (defense, ball pressure, valuing the ball, motion offense) have been severely tweaked by the current roster situation. He's basically going to have to rethink his whole philosophy this season (something he has actually done in the past but to much, much smaller extents).

Tons of questions in regards to the defense. How in the world is this team going to defend anyone, I mean anyone? Can you imagine the delight some 6-1 guard will have when a far slower Singler or Kelly or Plumlee switches on him? Is there any quickness available to defend passing lanes? Should we start a tally on how many times a plead for zone defense is implored on this board? In what manner are Scheyer and Smith going to defend throughout a game to avoid foul issues? What kind of ball pressure can we even apply?

Oh yeah, the offense. I don't see this as being affected as much without Elliot. Who besides Nolan can drive and kick? As excellent as Scheyer was handling the ball in a pg role and not turning it over, he's still not the type to initiate an offense. Elliot wouldn't have been either, but he could have still provided us will some bailout offense, provide some scoring when things break down. With some supposedly decent perimeter shooting bigs, who's going to create for them to spot up from the perimeter.

I see a very, very slow running offense, obviously. To win, we're going to have to win ugly, it's not going to be pretty at all - but it's nasty when you lose. There's all this talk of little margin for error. So what/where exactly is the margin? The OOC schedule is going to be very, very interesting. A couple bad losses (i.e. teams that the world perceives we should trounce) could decimate the ncaa hopes.

But hey, it's always the seemingly insurmountable challenges that can end up being the most gratifying. Still proud as hell to be a Dukie.

[ACCBBallFan]

Ok, so nobody thinks we are a mid-major, then let's compare us to someone we will actually play next year in Wisconsin. If you switched jersey's these two teams will look very similar next season. I am sure none of us woke up in May thinking, "God if only Duke had Wisconsin's players..." In reality, we're pretty similar. Tons of tall white guys, a couple of guards (ok, literally) and very few playmakers if any. Neither team has anyone who can break you down offensively and both teams will rely heavily on hitting open jumpers and playing saging team defense.

We may very well tie them in December. Think we could move to the Big 10 next year? We might actually match up well against Northwestern, Penn St., Wisconsin, Minn., and Iowa.
Other than racially which is huge stereotype, and I have no idea of Badger racial mix and don't care, but I did compare rosters and not much resemblance to Wisc,

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/teams/stats?teamId=275

Guess we wil find out on Dec 2 in ACC-B10 Challenge. Playing @ Wisconsin is not easy but they lost their best player Landry to graduation 6'7" 230 12.7 PPG.

The three guys they return who played a lot of mnutes, 32.3 MPG by Trevon Hughes is 6'0 193 Sr 12.1 PPG and pretty good player.

Another Sr. Bohannon played 33.1 MPG scored 10.3 is 6'2" 198 and Leuer played 21.3 MPG 6'10" 225 Jr. scored 8.8.

Next highest scoring returnee is Jr. Nankyvil 6'8" 240 who scored 4.5 PPG in 14 MPG and Jasmusz played 16.1 MPG but only scored 3.4 PPG is 6'6" 210 Jr. G/F. Other guy Taylor a Soph is 6'1" 190 played 13.1 MPG and only scored 1;6 PPG.

So they have no Singler, let'd call Scheyer and Hughes a wash, and Duke's height and experience over Wisky's. Can't tell much looking at stats, but probably next two are no better than Nolan and Lance if as good.

Their version of Zoubek is a 7' 0" Soph center Markolf who played a total of 5 minutes in 4 games. Another center Jr. Givinski @ 6'11" 255 payed a total of 7 minutes in 4 games. So gotta like Zoubek or Miles chancs over their jumbos, or Wisc may go with three guard and two forwards one 6'8" and ther 6'10.

Not sure who their freshmen recruits this year are but pretty sure I would prefer Mason/Kelly over them.

Forget about only being able to match up with bottom half of B10. Despite Duke losing a couple very good guys, down year for ACC especially 3 point shooter.

Duke will compete for top 3 in ACC, unless you can show me the four ACC teams whose roster is so much better wihtout annointing their frosh while discounting Duke's.

Your thinking is a backward, Bo Ryan probably woudl think he had a great dream when he awoke and found his roster was Duke's and not what he returns.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Is anyone else a little annoyed with the amount of kids that have left Duke in the past years? I don't know what to make of it. Is it the kids that made the mistake of just thinking of themselves in a Duke uniform? Homesickness? I realize that all of them are probably isolated and they have their own perogatives, but man, there have been a lot of kids that have transferred from Duke.
I remember Mike Chappell, Michael Thompson, Andre Sweet, Eric Boateng, Jamal Boykin, Kris Humphries (kind of), Taylor King, and now Elliot Williams. Not sure if I am missing any from the past decade or so, but for those of you that are alums of Duke and may know certain situations, what do you think of it? You couple this with the kids that have left early for the league, that is a tough combination to overcome for anyone.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Is anyone else a little annoyed with the amount of kids that have left Duke in the past years? I don't know what to make of it. Is it the kids that made the mistake of just thinking of themselves in a Duke uniform? Homesickness? I realize that all of them are probably isolated and they have their own perogatives, but man, there have been a lot of kids that have transferred from Duke.
I remember Mike Chappell, Michael Thompson, Andre Sweet, Eric Boateng, Jamal Boykin, Kris Humphries (kind of), Taylor King, and now Elliot Williams. Not sure if I am missing any from the past decade or so, but for those of you that are alums of Duke and may know certain situations, what do you think of it? You couple this with the kids that have left early for the league, that is a tough combination to overcome for anyone.

Not to mention Chris Burgess.

However, the players Duke recruits want to play and think that they are very good. Duke generally recruits a lot of them. So many will see that they are going to play less than they expected and transfer. (USC football has the same problem with running backs.)

There are probably some transfers explained by other reasons, ie Boykin wanted to be closer to home.

SoCal

[Devilsfan]

Yes it definitely is not a list to be proud of. But Elliott and Jamal's reasons are different. However no one has mentioned Duke's overall deficiency in undergraduate student advising (not a coaching responsibility). Duke has GREAT networking, but poor advising, imo.

[-jk]

... However no one has mentioned Duke's overall deficiency in undergraduate student advising (not a coaching responsibility). Duke has GREAT networking, but poor advising, imo.

I'm not sure whether you're talking about advising of undergrads in general or specifically athletes (perhaps even basketball players).

I was under the impression that we had a very nice support system for our athletes.

-jk

[Indoor66]

Hi,

I don't think most people on here have done anything wrong or shown little class. People think it is odd that a kid who wants to be close to home in Memphis would pick UK to attend. I don't think most of us are thinking about it because it is Kentucky, but because a ton of schools are closer and all in all it does not seem that much closer than just staying at Duke.

I will add a little something I haven't read anyone write about in this thread. I spent a bit (ok a lot, but I don't want to admit it ;-p ) of my youth in Kentucky. Aren't there a ton of back roads one would need to drive to get to Lexington? As the crow flies UK could be seen as closer than Durham to Memphis, I am not all that sure that once one counts actual driving time if it is all that much (if any) closer.

Any Kentuckians want to chyme in here? I am not talking about the freeways, I am talking about how it is to actually get to UK. I could be wrong here, it has been a LONG time since I've been in the Bluegrass state and I spent most of that time in Louisville.

GO DUKE!

Memphis to Lexington - 6.5 hrs
Memphis to Durham - 11.5 hrs
per google maps

[MADevil30]

Yes it definitely is not a list to be proud of. But Elliott and Jamal's reasons are different. However no one has mentioned Duke's overall deficiency in undergraduate student advising (not a coaching responsibility). Duke has GREAT networking, but poor advising, imo.

As a current (Trinity '12) undergrad a have to disagree. I seem to have a lot more adivsing opions than friends at other top tier schools. I don't think the reasons for many of these transfers are academic

[quickgtp]

It appears as if every angle has been covered in this discussion, but since Email became my favorite Duke player last year I wanted to throw my thoughts in as well. First off, I wish him and his mother nothing but the best and I will certainly keep her in my prayers.

Now, it certainly bugs me that UK is even being considered. I know he needs to explore his options, but UK? Are you kidding me? I have done that drive and flight both and I can tell you that it's not that much closer than Duke, meaning it won't save him that much time week in and week out compared to his travel time from Durham. If, and again that's a big if, he ends up at UK then the NCAA needs to do a bit of investigating. Calipari is already shady; this would just add to that label.

IMO, if Elliot ends up anywhere but Memphis or a close school (perhaps Vandy) then Cal is up to something, and/or Email just didn't want to be at Duke anymore and wanted out.

[BlueintheFace]

Yes it definitely is not a list to be proud of. But Elliott and Jamal's reasons are different. However no one has mentioned Duke's overall deficiency in undergraduate student advising (not a coaching responsibility). Duke has GREAT networking, but poor advising, imo.

Yeah, Duke's undergrad advising is notorious amongst, not only Duke grads, but those outside the Duke community as well, to be SUB-PAR.

When a younger sibling of mine decided to go to Duke too, I told her that to get good advising, she would need to seek out a mentor or knowledgeable person herself or get lucky with her assigned advisor. Definitely one of Duke's very few weak spots.

[-jk]

It's Memphis, according to AP (http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_8545/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=G9Xx0dTV) anyway.

-jk

[diveonthefloor]

http://www.commercialappeal.com

[Kewlswim]

As a current (Trinity '12) undergrad a have to disagree. I seem to have a lot more adivsing opions than friends at other top tier schools. I don't think the reasons for many of these transfers are academic

Hi,

Chris Kennedy is in charge of tutoring for athletes at Duke. He does a wonderful job. As an aside his wife is Dean Ana Beamud (not sure what she is technically a Dean of these days) who I recently heard was not doing well. I don't know the nature of her illness, but I hope she is back to full strength soon. Dean Beamud got mad at me when I was a student and I still think I get nightmares from that event. I bet she would have been a great Harvard dean, I could see her on the "Paper Chase" or something.

GO DUKE!

[Kewlswim]

Memphis to Lexington - 6.5 hrs
Memphis to Durham - 11.5 hrs
per google maps

Hi,

I still wonder if cars on those back dirt roads move as quickly as Google expects they should. Frankly, I don't care to find out and it looks like EWill didn't either.

GO DUKE!

[Indoor66]

Hi,

I still wonder if cars on those back dirt roads move as quickly as Google expects they should. Frankly, I don't care to find out and it looks like EWill didn't either.

GO DUKE!

Check Google maps - it is all Interstates.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Well, as a 2006 graduate of the U of Arizona, I have to say I am happy that Josh Pastner was able to get a great player and individual in EWill to help in the transition they are going through now at Memphis. I am sad he is not a Dukie anymore, but unless it was UA itself, I wouldn't have wanted it any different. God Bless Elliot, I am sure we will figure something out...eventually...maybe.

[JasonEvans]

Now that it is Memphis, I hope all the folks who voiced anger and suspicion about Kentucky or other destinations that seemed -- well -- incompatible with the stated desire to be near his sick mother will take back their comments and innuendo.

--Jason "bummed he is gone, but wishing him well" Evans

[Azdukefan]

Let me be the first to eat crow. I hope Elliott's situation works out. Kentucky on the list really lead me to believe some of the grumblings were valid.

[SupaDave]

I hope he dominates. Memphis could use some talent.

[Indoor66]

Let me be the first to eat crow. I hope Elliott's situation works out. Kentucky on the list really lead me to believe some of the grumblings were valid.

Yeah, it kinda reminds me of some of the press reactions to the LAX case! :mad: It is usually best to wait for the dust to settle and the facts to come out!