Mason and Ryan Impact

[nicktonyg22]

From those in the know, or have seen them play, what do you think the realistic potenital impact is that Mason Plumlee and Ryan Kelly will have on this year's team?

Its pretty clear that both will get their opportunity to show what they are made of because we only have 10 recruited players on the roster.

I played against Kelly in high school when he was a freshman (if you think he's rail thin now you should have seen him then), but have never seen either of them play in person since then.

Seeing them walking around Durham, they both still look pretty thin, but hopefully their skill will overshadow that.

Right now, based on the production of the players currently on the roster from last season and the fact that Singler is going to be playing quite a bit at the 3, I am assuming that Kelly and Plumlee will probably get about 30 minutes split between them each night.

Thoughts?

[jimsumner]

Nothing but speculation at this point. It's possible they both could start, it's possible neither will start. Remember, Zoubek, Thomas, Miles Plumlee, and Czyz will be competing for those 80 mpg at the 4/5. And it actually will be less than 80 because Singler will still play some 4.

So, I wouldn't make any assumptions either way except to assume that practices will be very spirited.

[DUKIE V(A)]

I think Plumlee will be a stud at Duke and give us lots of quality minutes from game one. I would be very surprised if he is not a starter by early in the season.

Kelly seems to be a very good shooter. I think we will contribute as a freshman (especially because of his shooting) and develop into a high quality player in his four years at Duke.

[gumbomoop]

I think Plumlee will be a stud at Duke and give us lots of quality minutes from game one. I would be very surprised if he is not a starter by early in the season.

Amen to that. Unless Czyz has substantially improved - and we're all pulling for that - it seems to me that MP2 and LT will share major minutes at the 4 [for LT the 4 on O, and as I and others have speculated before, often the 3 on D, switching with KS]. MP2 might log some minutes at the 5 as well, though there he'd share with MP1 and Z. I just find it hard to imagine that MP2 won't get lots of minutes. I do realize others will say, justifiably, that the transition from hs to ACC is huge jump, but his offensive skill set is already superior to Z, LT, MP1, and C; and he can block shots, both straight up and from weak side, so I wouldn't expect him to be a really weak link on D. Significant minutes: I'll be very surprised to see him fall toward end of bench, and somewhat so should he log anything less than 18-20 mpg.

[DevilDan]

I think that Mason has a great chance to be an impact player this fall. I got to this point after seeing him in a couple of All-Star games, and hearing the line "Miles is good, Mason is better" more than once.

What little time Miles was in games last year, I thought he looked pretty good -- a feel for the rim and the backboard, some decent defense, and a few boards to boot. I think if he and Brian can give us 35 productive minutes at the "5", it may open the door for Mason to get an early look. He seems to have a high basketball IQ, some real inside moves, and he may be the "basketball jones" that we need to spark the offense. It's a hard thing to put into words, but he's not SHY and brings GAME; in the AStar games, he gave as good as he got. He looked more than willing to mix it up with opponents.

I liked the skills that Josh McRoberts brought to the floor -- Mason has many of those, and he can SCORE TOO. I don't have any vibes on Ryan Kelly yet, but I hope his good eye can help us. Final thought, the major breakthrough I am hoping for is OLEK... he looked lost in space last year. I'd like to see him earn a spot in the rotation.

This is shaping up to be a totally different team than we have had over the last decade. The season should be a lot of fun.

[jimsumner]

"What little time Miles was in games last year, I thought he looked pretty good -- a feel for the rim and the backboard, some decent defense, and a few boards to boot."

Well that's certainly a glass-half-full way of looking at it.

But you're right. Almost every shot he took hit either the rim or the backboard. :)

[Devilsfan]

Kelly could eventually develop into our point forward.

[dukestheheat]

Kelly will start on Duke this fall.

Bet you a 50 stamp right now.

dukestheheat.

[CDu]

Kelly could eventually develop into our point forward.

Do you really think that? Everything I've heard/read was that he's a good perimeter shooter and a decent ballhandler for a big man. But I haven't seen anything to suggest he has the ballhandling or playmaking skills to be a point forward.

I'll reserve judgment until we at least have seen him in a Duke uniform (same with Plumlee). You just never know about kids until you see them play against a decent level of competition. They may end up phenomenal players right away, and they may end up not being ready this year.

[chrishoke]

I don't think anyone has mentioned what I b elieve will be the deciding factor:

DEFENSE!

[nicktonyg22]

Agreed, chrishoke. Both of these guys will have to be able to play defense, keep up athletically and handle K's system before they will get much playing time.

It's hard to see Zoubek playing much more than 18 mpg and Lance playing much more than 25 mpg, though, so there will definitely be an opening for guys like these two, Olek and MP1 to get some major minutes.

If you think about it, even if Singler and Scheyer play 35 mpg and Nolan and EWill play 25 mpg, along with the previous numbers, there is still 35 mpg of playing time available for the other 4 guys. two of them most likely will have to stand out, especially on the defensive end.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

"What little time Miles was in games last year, I thought he looked pretty good -- a feel for the rim and the backboard, some decent defense, and a few boards to boot."

Well that's certainly a glass-half-full way of looking at it.

But you're right. Almost every shot he took hit either the rim or the backboard. :)
Ooh! That's mean, Jim. :eek: You having a bad day or something? ;):D

[CDu]

I don't think anyone has mentioned what I b elieve will be the deciding factor:

DEFENSE!

It's true. Defense is going to decide it. If they can't handle the defensive assignments, they won't see the floor as much as some would like. Though I suspect that given the lack of backcourt depth and lack of proven options in the post, they'll probably HAVE to play some even if they aren't ready.

Based on their sizes, it would seem that Mason Plumlee will be primarily competing with Zoubek and Miles Plumlee for minutes at C, and Kelly will be competing with Thomas and Czyz for minutes at PF. Singler will play mostly at SF with the three guards playing the guard spot and filling in the remaining minutes at the "3" spot. Maybe Singler and Plumlee steal minutes at the "4" spot as well. Who knows until they start playing live competition?

[Tim1515]

What's exciting is that we may never need to see Lance Thomas at the 5 again. In fact...i could see him guarding SFs in some rotations this year.

[DevilDan]

"What little time Miles was in games last year, I thought he looked pretty good -- a feel for the rim and the backboard, some decent defense, and a few boards to boot." (from my first post)

Well that's certainly a glass-half-full way of looking at it.

But you're right. Almost every shot he took hit either the rim or the backboard. (per Jim Sumner)

Hey, I will always defer to the intellect and experience of Mr. Sumner ... my comments above about Miles were based on seeing him play last season -- from what I saw, I don't think he hurt us when on the floor. There were games I would have liked seeing him get more minutes. Lance and Kyle are not the answer at the "5"; I simply want to see us get a post player there. Lance may ease into the all-purpose role that McClure played last year ... I know Kyle can play endline to endline with the best in the Country.

[jimsumner]

I think CDU is spot on, although I think Duke might give Czyz some time at the 3.

Bad-day? Well, my sciatic nerve has been acting up. :)

Look, I like Miles. His combination of size, strength, quickness, and leaping ability may be unique on this roster. I expect him to play this year and wouldn't be shocked if he starts.

But in the limited PT I saw last year, his shooting touch seemed erratic at best and he looked lost on defense far too often. He'll get better but I think Dan's assessment was more wish than reality.

Maybe reality this year.

[jimsumner]

Hey Dan,

I think a lot of MP's problems last year were more a result of confidence and comfort than anything else. It seemed to me like he was trying too hard, thinking too much. So, he'd lose his man on D, not set a screen when a screen was called for, not make the relocation pass out of the post; that sort of thing. And K had him on a short leash, so he'd make a mistake, get pulled, get tight, make a mistake, get pulled, get tight. And so forth. Duke simply didn't have the luxury of allowing him to play through his mistakes, not with more experienced options available.

He had his moments, including a nice spurt against Georgetown when Duke was in tons of foul trouble early. I think he showed enough that we can reasonably expect a leap forward as a sophomore. Looking forward to it.

[DevilDan]

Mr. Sumner, I think you nailed it -- Miles' limited production was probably due to those two factors. I doubt he ever reached a relaxation mode on the court where he could settle in and just PLAY -- and yep, I remember the good run he gave us in the Georgetown game.

Mason, however, brings in a relentless "aw shucks, let's just go out there and kick some butt" attitude. Maybe MP2 will be good for MP1. I like having the two of them. It's gonna feel REAL STRANGE (translation: REAL GOOOOD) to have about 6-7 combinations in the frontcourt. GO DUKE !

[dukelifer]

Mr. Sumner, I think you nailed it -- Miles' limited production was probably due to those two factors. I doubt he ever reached a relaxation mode on the court where he could settle in and just PLAY -- and yep, I remember the good run he gave us in the Georgetown game.

Mason, however, brings in a relentless "aw shucks, let's just go out there and kick some butt" attitude. Maybe MP2 will be good for MP1. I like having the two of them. It's gonna feel REAL STRANGE (translation: REAL GOOOOD) to have about 6-7 combinations in the frontcourt. GO DUKE !
Big Brother's like to be better than little brothers- I expect Miles will raise his game next year- he will have to.

[Duke #33]

Not sure where this should go, but I put it here because it could effect Mason and Ryan's impact next year. Olek Czyz had surgery on his knee and is expected to be out 4 weeks. Its not a huge deal, but it may take time away from improving his game over the summer. http://duke.scout.com/a.z?s=167&p=4&cfg=bb

[MADevil30]

It's hard to see Zoubek playing much more than 18 mpg and Lance playing much more than 25 mpg, though, so there will definitely be an opening for guys like these two, Olek and MP1 to get some major minutes.

Lets be careful before throwing out really bold predictions like this. Keep in mind that Zoubs and Lance are both seniors this year and have all the experience, poise, and comfort with the system that come from already having played three years in the ACC and three years for Coach K. Also we have to keep in mind that neither Mason nor Ryan has even set foot on campus yet, its just too hard to judge how they will effect playing time for the older guys; last year a lot of people on these boards thought that Olek would be a major contributor this year and he ended up being about as far from ACC ready as anybody I've been put on the blue and white. Its easy to get caught up in the hope for the unknown entity, but Lance and Zoubs have put in their time and will reap the benefits on the court.

[UrinalCake]

Big Brother's like to be better than little brothers- I expect Miles will raise his game next year- he will have to.

Yeah, that will be an intersting dynamic to watch next year. Would be cool to see them both in a game at the same time as the wear twins. BTW can you imagine what kind of grocery bills the plumlees must run? Three boys around 6'10... I bet their parents are ready to get them on the meal plan!

[ACCBBallFan]

It's hard to see Zoubek playing much more than 18 mpg and Lance playing much more than 25 mpg, though, so there will definitely be an opening for guys like these two, Olek and MP1 to get some major minutes.


Lets be careful before throwing out really bold predictions like this. Keep in mind that Zoubs and Lance are both seniors this year and have all the experience, poise, and comfort with the system that come from already having played three years in the ACC and three years for Coach K. Also we have to keep in mind that neither Mason nor Ryan has even set foot on campus yet, its just too hard to judge how they will effect playing time for the older guys; last year a lot of people on these boards thought that Olek would be a major contributor this year and he ended up being about as far from ACC ready as anybody I've been put on the blue and white. Its easy to get caught up in the hope for the unknown entity, but Lance and Zoubs have put in their time and will reap the benefits on the court.

While I agree with MADevil's reply, I also agree with nicktonyg22's original point. Whatever minutes the Plumlees and Kelly get will be after Zoubek's 15 MPG and Lance's low 20's MPG (thnakfully not as a center but in McClure role). G and McClure were better competition for them for PT last year than two frosh will be this year and they played close to that as juniors.

I also agree with Dan's and Jim Sumner's exchange that coach K saw something in Miles at beginning of year, and then being lost on defense and lacking confidence hurt his PT, but that is reversible this year.

The good news is that coach K has the two seniors to lean to for experience and the two frosh and two sophs to lean to for perhaps more skills to offset their limited experience and get them ready for a successsful 4 year career at Duke, as they learn on the job in practice and in OOC to get ready for ACC and post season play.

Of the two, I see Mason having the better chance at freshman success with his only competition being Z and his brother at center and Lance /Kelly at PF.

Kelly IMO will see spot duty up to about 10 MPG mostly subbing in for Kyle/Jon as second shooter, but defense could hold him back initially, not to mention hard to pull Jon/Kyle out of game unless foul trouble or minor injury force that. Not suggesting that Kelly would play SG, rather a forward while Duke reverts to 2 guard set. With Elliott/Nolan as two guards while Jon rests, Kelly's lack of defensive prowess would not be as limiting for those few minutes.

It's up to Kelly/Mason to beat the other for PF minutes shared with Lance, while Mason has the second option of also competing for center minutes.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Yeah, that will be an intersting dynamic to watch next year. Would be cool to see them both in a game at the same time as the wear twins. BTW can you imagine what kind of grocery bills the plumlees must run? Three boys around 6'10... I bet their parents are ready to get them on the meal plan!

If I visit Duke and the Dillo is out of queso, I'm blaming the Plumlee brothers

[miramar]

When Coach K met with the Crazies before the Carolina game, he talked about individual players and said that Miles was the most talented of the team's centers. Unfortunately, he had his growing pains so that talent did not translate into minutes, but all of that can change next year. No matter how the minutes are divided, I'm looking forward to having more options next year. All of the big men should have the chance to contribute, from the seniors down to the freshmen. We'll know in five months.

[nicktonyg22]

To clear up my thoughts on my earlier post, when i said there would be some "major minutes" available for the foursome of MP1, MP2, Kelly and Czyz, I meant more that those guys would HAVE to play, not necessarily that they would be able to step in and be 100% ready to assume a large role for this team. I'm envisioning that MP1 will get about 15 mpg, the two freshman 10 mpg a piece, and Olek about 5 per game.

Thats just how its going to shake out, in my opinion. Jon and Kyle are our workhorses, and will probably go about 35 minutes a night. I see EWill and Nolan going about 25 per night (maybe 30 for one of them), and then Lance going about 25 and Zoubek going for about 15. That leaves 35-40 minutes of court time left for the other four. Unless one of them really stands out, we will probably see each of those four guys out on the court for some stretch of time, depending on matchups and offensive/defensive needs.

[Lightz]

I think its interesting that we have 6 players (Lance, mp1, mp2, Kyle, Olek, R.Kelly) who seem to naturally play the 4. I think playing time will most be determined by whoever can also play the 3. Kyle will probably spend a lot of time at the 3 and I think Kelly, Lance, and Olek could potentially play some in that spot. I think Kelly has a lot of potential playing the 3 on offense, we'll see how it pans out.

[COYS]

Lets be careful before throwing out really bold predictions like this. Keep in mind that Zoubs and Lance are both seniors this year and have all the experience, poise, and comfort with the system that come from already having played three years in the ACC and three years for Coach K. Also we have to keep in mind that neither Mason nor Ryan has even set foot on campus yet, its just too hard to judge how they will effect playing time for the older guys; last year a lot of people on these boards thought that Olek would be a major contributor this year and he ended up being about as far from ACC ready as anybody I've been put on the blue and white. Its easy to get caught up in the hope for the unknown entity, but Lance and Zoubs have put in their time and will reap the benefits on the court.

I'm not sure that 18 minutes for Zoubs and 25 for Thomas is too much of a bold prediction, though. Both players are vulnerable to foul trouble and 18 and 25 minutes respectively would be a fairly significant increase from last season (Zoubs: 11.9mpg, Thomas 18.6pg). I think it's actually more bold to predict that Zoubs and Thomas will play as much as 18 and 25 mpg, respectively, especially since their positions will become more crowded. Obviously, if they make significant improvements, this could definitely happen, but I don't think that hoping for those minutes from Zoubs and Thomas would be a boldly low guess.

[heyman25]

Coach K said big men run their own race. If Zoubek and Thomas love basketball and want to continue playing basketball somewhere after Duke its time to start sprinting instead of jogging. I am not trying to be hard on the seniors just pragmatic. Thomas played very well in a few games but was not consistent. Zoubek also had a few good games,but its up to Brian if he will be a big contributor to Duke's team for 09-10.

Thomas has match up problems in girth. Zoubek could take more advantage of his size than he does. Thomas if he could be reliable shooter from 6 -15 feet he would be more of a scoring threat. He hasn't had a knack for getting rebounds. He needs to improve that as well.

Mason Plumlee seems to have the most talent between his brother and Kelly. I hope all this size leads to better play in the paint. Czyz had the surgery. He likes Duke but may be in last place for playing time. If he could develop Dennis Rodman skills being a voracious rebounder and defender he could gain some pt.

[DukeDevilDeb]

Not sure where this should go, but I put it here because it could effect Mason and Ryan's impact next year. Olek Czyz had surgery on his knee and is expected to be out 4 weeks. Its not a huge deal, but it may take time away from improving his game over the summer. http://duke.scout.com/a.z?s=167&p=4&cfg=bb

I "talked" with Olek who said that the surgery was very, very successful. He is feeling good and is going to Poland to play on the national u20 team there.

Who knows if Olek will have a fair, good, or great year? Wish I had a crystal ball. But I do think the surgery improved his chances to improve!

[ACCBBallFan]

I "talked" with Olek who said that the surgery was very, very successful. He is feeling good and is going to Poland to play on the national u20 team there.

Who knows if Olek will have a fair, good, or great year? Wish I had a crystal ball. But I do think the surgery improved his chances to improve!

Thanks, it will be interesting to get a gauge on Olek from his Polish national U 20 games which would be a better yardstick than pickup games were last year.

I pretty much agree across the board on Heyman's analysis. If Zoubs starts to want those pro dollars after his senior year, (probably not NBA bus somewhere internationally) he may kcik it up a notch. He certainly has the size that cannot be taught, as long as he can be taught, and has the desire, and most importantly stays healthy.

[1Devil]

Coach K said big men run their own race. If Zoubek and Thomas love basketball and want to continue playing basketball somewhere after Duke its time to start sprinting instead of jogging. I am not trying to be hard on the seniors just pragmatic. Thomas played very well in a few games but was not consistent. Zoubek also had a few good games,but its up to Brian if he will be a big contributor to Duke's team for 09-10.

Thomas has match up problems in girth. Zoubek could take more advantage of his size than he does. Thomas if he could be reliable shooter from 6 -15 feet he would be more of a scoring threat. He hasn't had a knack for getting rebounds. He needs to improve that as well.

Mason Plumlee seems to have the most talent between his brother and Kelly. I hope all this size leads to better play in the paint. Czyz had the surgery. He likes Duke but may be in last place for playing time. If he could develop Dennis Rodman skills being a voracious rebounder and defender he could gain some pt.


I second all of this. I don't really get why Miles was on such a short leash last year anyway. Thomas and Zoubek set the bar so low that if Miles had been allowed to play through more of his mistakes, he could have finished the season as a real contributor. Hopefully he and Mason get more leeway this year.

BTW, I think Zoubek is a nice piece to have to match up against big centers for 15mpg, like against FSU in the ACCT last year. But he should not be a starter. Nor should Lance (though K will probably disagree on this latter point).

[DevilDan]

Backatcha, 1Devil, Brian and Lance are players of "estimable" skill sets (so far). I'd like to see more minutes of Miles in the "5". He got yanked a milisecond following his mistakes last year -- as a few of us offered earlier in this thread, I'd like to see him reach a comfort level out there, provided he doesn't hurt the team.

I think a spirited competition between Brian/Lance/Miles and MASON (who may become the best big man we have) this fall that produces a definitive starter at 5, is a key to our season. But whether it's a clear starter, or the post becomes a committee of 3-4 ... let's do anything we can to get KYLE away from any such duties, and let him blossom into the player he IS at 3 & 4. GO DUKE !

[Devilsfan]

Middle Plumlee and Rkelly sure look good on paper. Can that many scouting experts be wrong, I sure hope not.

[ACCBBallFan]

I second all of this. I don't really get why Miles was on such a short leash last year anyway. Thomas and Zoubek set the bar so low that if Miles had been allowed to play through more of his mistakes, he could have finished the season as a real contributor. Hopefully he and Mason get more leeway this year.

BTW, I think Zoubek is a nice piece to have to match up against big centers for 15mpg, like against FSU in the ACCT last year. But he should not be a starter. Nor should Lance (though K will probably disagree on this latter point).

I agree Lance should not start as the nominal center, or ever play that spot agian with the size Duke now has, but think he probably does start at PF (unless Mason or Ryan Kelly are immediately good enough defenders to displace Lance at PF) with Kyle at the SF and a Plumlee or Z in the post.

If K goes with the three guards and Kyle at PF, again I think it ought to be a Plumlee or Z and not Lance as the fifth starter, saving Lance as a second on the ball defender to sub in when one of Nolan/Elliott comes out for a breather, and getting more offensive production from center slot than Lance offers.

[1Devil]

Could be that Kelly gets a lot of PT when Elliot's on the court, since Elliot's not such a great outside shooter (or at least hasn't been so far).

[ACCBBallFan]

Could be that Kelly gets a lot of PT when Elliot's on the court, since Elliot's not such a great outside shooter (or at least hasn't been so far).
At least some PT when Elliott and Nolan are both on the court and Jon is not which is only 5-10 MPG and then perhaps some more when Elliott and Jon are ont he court and Nolan is not, particularly if Kyle is not which could be another 5-10 minutes.

I guess it is possible we will see some lineups with all three of Jon, Kyle and Ryan, perhpas a very tall lineup once in a while with Lance and a Plumlee/Z, but usually one of Nolan/Elliott would be out there with the trio of Jon, Kyle and Ryan and whoever plays the center slot will have to be the best defender based on who the opponent is among the Plumlees, Z and maybe even Lance, but only in that situation or against a small non conference team where any combination will work.

That's the trap Duke fellinto too often the past 3 years with Lance as the nominal center, deluding themselves into thinking what worked against weak competition in exhibitions and some OOC follows through in other OOC, in ACC and beyond.

[COYS]

That's the trap Duke fellinto too often the past 3 years with Lance as the nominal center, deluding themselves into thinking what worked against weak competition in exhibitions and some OOC follows through in other OOC, in ACC and beyond.

I don't think it was delusion that lead to a lineup such as this but necessity. Zoubek didn't match up well against many teams we played. Miles was still learning to play. Zoubek also had his fair share of foul trouble, as well. I think that from the very beginning of the season last year when Zoubek was the original starter and Thomas came off the bench, you saw that the staff and the team as a whole made a pretty strong attempt to establish Zoubek. However, match ups dictated against Zoubek getting more time. With Miles still learning and prone to mistakes, a frontcourt of Thomas and Singler was simply our best option, even if it had limitations. We'll see how things develop this year, but I would imagine that one or a combination of Zoubek, Miles, and Mason will be given the chance to shine at the center position. My hope is that Zoubek remains effective in certain matchups and improves even more, Miles builds on his freshman season, and Mason can come in and provide an immediate impact. That being said, I still expect to see a small ball lineup of Smith, Williams, Scheyer, Singler, and probably Thomas from time to time.

[allenmurray]

Kelly will start on Duke this fall.

Bet you a 50 stamp right now.

dukestheheat.

I hope he is drinking five protein shakes a day and spending 18 hours in the weight room. I had a chance to watch him play - he was very impressive. But he is built like a pencil. I fear he will be manhandled under the basket in the ACC until he puts on some weight, and while I think he has potential to play the away from the basket where his size (or lack thereof) will not be such a negative, I have a hard time imagining him doing that in his first year.

[ACCBBallFan]

I don't think it was delusion that lead to a lineup such as this but necessity. Zoubek didn't match up well against many teams we played. Miles was still learning to play. Zoubek also had his fair share of foul trouble, as well. I think that from the very beginning of the season last year when Zoubek was the original starter and Thomas came off the bench, you saw that the staff and the team as a whole made a pretty strong attempt to establish Zoubek. However, match ups dictated against Zoubek getting more time. With Miles still learning and prone to mistakes, a frontcourt of Thomas and Singler was simply our best option, even if it had limitations. We'll see how things develop this year, but I would imagine that one or a combination of Zoubek, Miles, and Mason will be given the chance to shine at the center position. My hope is that Zoubek remains effective in certain matchups and improves even more, Miles builds on his freshman season, and Mason can come in and provide an immediate impact. That being said, I still expect to see a small ball lineup of Smith, Williams, Scheyer, Singler, and probably Thomas from time to time.

Not disagreeing with you that Zoubek is effective on certain matchups and not on others. However, Zoubek also offers advantages against small teams with respect ot drawing fouls as often as he commits them, and case of which coach blinks first of having to react to the other's guy.

Regardless though Zoubs can only play about 20 minutes max for fouls and other reasons you cite.

So I was supporting another poster's view that Miles has to be given the opportunity to play through his mistakes to learn on the job, and not be subbed out the nano second he makes a mistake. Against low level OOC foes, it will not affect the outcome but will pay dividends later on when the center Duke plays is too big for Lance to handle, but not too big for Miles (and this year Mason too).

[Greg_Newton]

Against low level OOC foes, it will not affect the outcome but will pay dividends later on when the center Duke plays is too big for Lance to handle, but not too big for Miles (and this year Mason too).

I'm a little confused as to where all the talk about Miles being substantially bigger than Mason and Mason mostly playing the 4 is coming from. I realize that Miles is officially llisted as 230 while Mason is listed as 215-220, but Mason looked quite chiseled at the recent all-star games (more so than I remember Miles looking this season), is an inch taller, and more importantly, looked to have an incredible wingspan. I realize it's not ideal to base comparisons off of Mason's play in a couple all-star games vs. Miles' occaisonal minutes this past season, but Mason appeared to play bigger, from what I saw.

Basically, I agree that Lance should not be playing bigger than forward next season, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that Miles will be a better center than Mason.

[jimsumner]

It may not be size as much as the perception that Mason is a bit more mobile than Miles and has better perimeter ball skills, making him a better prospect to play the 4.

[yancem]

I'm a little confused as to where all the talk about Miles being substantially bigger than Mason and Mason mostly playing the 4 is coming from. I realize that Miles is officially llisted as 230 while Mason is listed as 215-220, but Mason looked quite chiseled at the recent all-star games (more so than I remember Miles looking this season), is an inch taller, and more importantly, looked to have an incredible wingspan. I realize it's not ideal to base comparisons off of Mason's play in a couple all-star games vs. Miles' occaisonal minutes this past season, but Mason appeared to play bigger, from what I saw.

Basically, I agree that Lance should not be playing bigger than forward next season, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that Miles will be a better center than Mason.

From this picture it looks like Miles has a decent bit more bulk than Mason:

http://dukeblueplanet.smugmug.com/gallery/8525209_a3Nig?ref=nf#561215251_rX4wn-A-LB

Mason does seem to have decent definition though:

http://dukeblueplanet.smugmug.com/gallery/8525209_a3Nig?ref=nf#561215943_62Sdx-A-LB

[Greg_Newton]

From this picture it looks like Miles has a decent bit more bulk than Mason:

http://dukeblueplanet.smugmug.com/gallery/8525209_a3Nig?ref=nf#561215251_rX4wn-A-LB

Mason does seem to have decent definition though:

http://dukeblueplanet.smugmug.com/gallery/8525209_a3Nig?ref=nf#561215943_62Sdx-A-LB

Well, I stand corrected. Thanks for posting those. Miles definitely looks like he's been hitting the weights since the season ended, which is great to see. I still do think Mason will end up having a significant edge in the length and bounce department, but Miles' frame does look more solid.

Plus, he looks like he's holding his position slightly better than Mason here: http://dukeblueplanet.smugmug.com/gallery/8502492_EwRFN#559556387_fXgji-L-LB :rolleyes:

[ACCBBallFan]

It may not be size as much as the perception that Mason is a bit more mobile than Miles and has better perimeter ball skills, making him a better prospect to play the 4. Yep, most likely any other forward will offer as much offense or more than Lance but it will be how they defend the more mobile of the two bigs that determines whether Miles, Ryan, or Olek get the nod when Kyle is at the 3 spot. If Duke goes with 3 guards 10-15 mintes per game, then Kyle would man that 4 spot and one of Plumlees/Z would hopefuly be the center.

[ACCBBallFan]

Yep, most likely any other forward will offer as much offense or more than Lance but it will be how they defend the more mobile of the two bigs that determines whether Miles, Ryan, or Olek get the nod when Kyle is at the 3 spot. If Duke goes with 3 guards 10-15 mintes per game, then Kyle would man that 4 spot and one of Plumlees/Z would hopefuly be the center.
Meant to say Mason, not Miles as forward candidate though not out of the question for Miles to compete too, just need him to share post duties with Zoubek.

[DevilDan]

The more I read and hear, combined with good vibes from the all-star games ... the more I look forward to MP2. I've been accused (rightly so) of being the eternal optimist on this board, so I'm counting on Mason being the catalyst who shakes up and helps define our frontcourt "improvement".

It's SOOOO early, but based on the above, I see a little (tiny bits, OK) of Danny Ferry and Christian Laettner in him. I like his "O" skills a lot -- he can score from the dunk to the "3", he appears to play aggressively endline-to-endline, and he may be the first "basketball jones / street baller" we've had in a few years. (I guess I am tired of watching some of our opponents having one outwork our guys).

I am surprised and a little shocked that we are getting as good press as we are so far, in being a part of the NCAA title picture. So here's how it all comes to pass -- first we need to have NOLAN come back ready to kick butt from the point, and get JON back to the "2" where he can score more easily and more often. Second, we need a contribution from MASON up front -- it could be as a player in the rotation now, where he can help raise the bar for Miles/Brian/Lance to do things we've not seen in the post for 2-3 years. OR ... it could be as a practice player, where he challenges the others for their jobs daily, and still makes them raise the bar.

We all know that Coach K requires his players to work the entire defensive skill set before they get minutes, so I see that as being the factor that could keep Mason's freshman role to the "OR". But I think this guy is going to play a big role in DUKE HOOPS very shortly. Maybe he'll be the next "most hated" Blue Devil -- YES !

IF we become strong up front, it means that KYLE can cut loose and be one of the most complete players in the country. Players like ELLIOTT (athleticism) and RYAN (perimeter shooting) can make their unique contributions. IF all this evolves, then we can watch a Championship group take shape. My only regret is that this might mean than OLEK becomes the forgotten guy on the team.

But in this post, there is NO ROOM for negativity ..... what the HELL.... GO DUKE !

[airowe]

This is promising to see Christian working with our bigs. Does anyone know how much time he (or any of our other past bigs) spends with the current post players. This would seem to dispel the common (mis)perception I've heard from outsiders that Wojo is our only big man coach.

[SilkyJ]

It almost looks like Z may have lost some weight...though I guess its actually pretty tough to tell...but he just didn't seem like he was his listed 280 in those pics.

If true, I think its a good thing as he could afford to lose 10lbs and gain a little bit more in the quickness/explosiveness department. 7-1/270 still seems plenty big and beefy to me, I don't think there are more than 2 or 3 guys in the country who could push him around at that size.

[CDu]

It almost looks like Z may have lost some weight...though I guess its actually pretty tough to tell...but he just didn't seem like he was his listed 280 in those pics.

If true, I think its a good thing as he could afford to lose 10lbs and gain a little bit more in the quickness/explosiveness department. 7-1/270 still seems plenty big and beefy to me, I don't think there are more than 2 or 3 guys in the country who could push him around at that size.

It's all about lower body strength and balance. He was pushed around a fair bit at that size last year, simply because he lack the lower body strength and balance to hold his position. That's definitely at least partly a result of the multiple foot injuries preventing him from working on that aspect of his game.

Hopefully this offseason has been spent really working on coordination and lower body strength. If he can get better at holding his position and improving his balance, it should cut down on his turnovers and fouls and maybe help him be a more consistent offensive presence.

[ACCBBallFan]

It's all about lower body strength and balance. He was pushed around a fair bit at that size last year, simply because he lack the lower body strength and balance to hold his position. That's definitely at least partly a result of the multiple foot injuries preventing him from working on that aspect of his game.

Hopefully this offseason has been spent really working on coordination and lower body strength. If he can get better at holding his position and improving his balance, it should cut down on his turnovers and fouls and maybe help him be a more consistent offensive presence. Though still foul prone, Zoubek gets a bad rap on turnovers,

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=520

In his 427 minutes last year, on a per 40 minute basis, his TO's were only 2.34 but his fouls would have been 6.65, and his rebounds would be 12.46, with 13.67 points scored and 2.72 blocks on a per 40 minute basis.

[El_Diablo]

Though still foul prone, Zoubek gets a bad rap on turnovers,

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=520

In his 427 minutes last year, on a per 40 minute basis, his TO's were only 2.34 but his fouls would have been 6.65, and his rebounds would be 12.46, with 13.67 points scored and 2.72 blocks on a per 40 minute basis.

It's probably because most of his turnovers were within 4-5 feet of the basket, thus magnifying their impact.

Instead of the turnovers, I really hope he learns to move his feet better this year (without dropping his hands). This will help cut down on those touch fouls that smaller players might be able to get away with. And no more hooking! :) He doesn't need to do it if he can shoot over the defender, and the refs call him on it every time he tries to do it.

[m g]

Coach K has some thoughts on the issue:

TC: In the frontcourt, there’s something of a surplus of guys. What kind of skills do Ryan Kelly and Mason Plumlee bring? Do they do some of the things that Kyle [Singler] did last year?

K: Well, they are taller. Mason is 6-foot-11 and he’s got a chance to be really, really good. He has skills of a guard and the body of a big man, and a great basketball mind. He’s very competitive, he likes the stage, and he’s comfortable with the ball. Both he and Ryan are, and I think both of them are really good players. They can both shoot, play inside and outside, they are great workers, and they are ahead of their age, which for big guys, it’s almost the opposite.

They aren’t traditional big men—I liken them, especially Ryan, to European big men, because he can really shoot and handle. It’s not like he’s a speed merchant or whatever, but he’s got decent speed, and they are real smart. I think both of them have great futures.

We don’t have a surplus of big men. What we should have is a good group that gives us a consistent big man effort throughout the game.

One or both of them could start games. They will obviously be in a rotation, but we are going to depend on those two guys.

TC: Does Mason like to shot from the outside?

K: Yeah, both of them do. Mason can really put the ball on the floor, and he is a very good passer—an exceptional passer. If he can learn to pass when he’s facing the basket and with his back to the basket, our team will really be better.

TC: I haven’t seen Ryan and Mason play, but it seems to be that this team will still be shooting a lot from the outside, but that there will be some bigger bodies and more athletic bodies down low to rebound.

K: Their main thing is not to shoot from the outside, but they can. For a big guy it has to be to run, defend, rebound, protect our basket, get second shots. Although last year we did a really good job of rebounding, we need to win the battle each night of getting more second shots than our opponents. Offensive rebounding and defensive rebounding need to be an important stat for us.

We should have fresh big people in ballgames. Also, what does that do on the offensive boards for Kyle? Now, he’ll have a running start instead of rebounding right under the basket. It’s a different view of the game. All of a sudden we have a 6-foot-8 guy on the boards. I think sometimes we’ll see Lance [Thomas] at the 3, because he can guard, and we are going to be a bigger team.

We’ve always had to personalize what we do for the group that we have, so this is a bigger group.

http://sports.chronicleblogs.com/2009/06/24/exlusive-interview-with-coach-k-day-3/

[Kedsy]

Coach K has some thoughts on the issue:
http://sports.chronicleblogs.com/2009/06/24/exlusive-interview-with-coach-k-day-3/

He also said in that interview that he's "very excited" to see what Elliot brings to the table. I would be extremely interested to hear K's thoughts on the team now. I bet he's more optimistic than a lot of the posters here.

[beltwayBD]

From this picture it looks like Miles has a decent bit more bulk than Mason:

http://dukeblueplanet.smugmug.com/gallery/8525209_a3Nig?ref=nf#561215251_rX4wn-A-LB

Mason does seem to have decent definition though:

http://dukeblueplanet.smugmug.com/gallery/8525209_a3Nig?ref=nf#561215943_62Sdx-A-LB

Great pictures! Zoub looks hardcore with that beard!

This thread has made me less depressed about losing Elliot -- if Nolan and Jon can get the ball inside, if Lance (not to mention Kyle) can defend opposing guards, and if MP1, MP2, Ryan and Zoub can get us some rebounds and inside points, we could still be a force in the ACC and beyond.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

He also said in that interview that he's "very excited" to see what Elliot brings to the table. I would be extremely interested to hear K's thoughts on the team now. I bet he's more optimistic than a lot of the posters here.

Coach K is in the "catbird seat" when it comes to assessing what is required for next year to be successful on Duke's terms. It's an important asset that he doesn't waste time on elements which he can't control.

[Kedsy]

[/B]

Coach K is in the "catbird seat" when it comes to assessing what is required for next year to be successful on Duke's terms. It's an important asset that he doesn't waste time on elements which he can't control.

I don't understand what you mean.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I don't understand what you mean.
Coach K is in the driver's seat when it comes to the basketball program. He's in charge and doesn't waste his time bemoaning events over which he has no control. He identifies what needs to be done to go forward and sees to it that the plan is carried out. (Almost a definition of a leader or executive.)

I intended my original comment to contrast Coach K and how he does his job with the sort of minute analysis tossed about rather frequently of late.

[Kedsy]

Coach K is in the driver's seat when it comes to the basketball program. He's in charge and doesn't waste his time bemoaning events over which he has no control. He identifies what needs to be done to go forward and sees to it that the plan is carried out. (Almost a definition of a leader or executive.)

I intended my original comment to contrast Coach K and how he does his job with the sort of minute analysis tossed about rather frequently of late.

OK, now I understand. I agree, which is why I said he'd be more optimistic than many around here.

[Hancock 4 Duke]

here 2 pictures of the Plumlee brothers.
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=186011321&albumID=738324&imageID=17525639
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=186011321&albumID=738324&imageID=17525639#a=738324&i=17525637

[sagegrouse]

[/B]

Coach K is in the "catbird seat" when it comes to assessing what is required for next year to be successful on Duke's terms. It's an important asset that he doesn't waste time on elements which he can't control.

Ornithologically speaking, this is weird usage of the term "catbird seat," although not in contradiction to the discussion in Wikipedia, which refers to it as being in a strong or favored position.

The Gray Catbird is a very common bird of the American South, closely related to the Mockingbird, but shy rather than bold. It sits in the bushes making its randomly pretty calls, occasionally mimicking other birds. The Wikipedia article and this source (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/87600.html) refer to a bird that sits high in the tree to sing and display for all to see. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Catbird sits low in trees or hides in bushes and is usually seen close to the ground. When it sings, it is invariably hidden. Now the Kingbirds (Eastern, Western, Tropical, what-have-you), which perch on top of any and every structure are a different matter...

I always thought that the Red Barber reference, especially in his autobiography, Rhubarb in the Catbird Seat, was to a hidden position with a great view of what was going on, just like a baseball announcer.

Oh well....

In any event K's position at Duke is more like another bird .... He's the Kingfisher.

sagegrouse
'I apologize for the discursion. I promise not to discuss the Gray Catbird for the rest of the year...'

[SG24]

Duke freshman, Mason Plumlee and Ravenscroft (N.C.) standout Ryan Kelly both McDonald's All-Americans are ready to step up and make contributions to the Blue Devils this season. Both young men have experience in the backcourt were Duke needs some play makers. Check out the article on highschoolhoop.com
http://http://www.highschoolhoop.com/getting-up/2009/07/duke-recruits-and-a-walk-on-ready-to-save-the-depleted-blue-devils/

[Duke of Nashville]

MP1 gets my vote for most improved player. IMO we will have to stretch a couple of players true positions out (LT, RK) to the perimeter, which leaves alot of time to be won for coming in behind Z or even for a starting position to be won. I saw flashes last year were I thought MP1 provided some vital minutes (G-town game, Virginia game was a blow-out but he looked like a stud). MP2 may need a year, but I wouldn't complain if he stepped right in and provided it either...

[Duke of Nashville]

http://bluedevilnation.net/

from watzone

I know alot of factors play in on this but MP2 sounds pretty damn impressive in this article.

[Duke of Nashville]

Ryan Kelley was asked about the upcoming season, “We’re gonna be fine,” says Kelly. “I have no doubt. We’re gonna compete, and we’re gonna try and win a national championship. Nothing’s changed.”

http://www.highschoolhoop.com/getting-up/2009/07/duke-recruits-and-a-walk-on-ready-to-save-the-depleted-blue-devils/

Just his attitude has got me salivating about how next year will play out.

[SupaDave]

More on Mason and for what its worth, Slam Magazine have been giving our guys a lot of love lately.

http://www.slamonline.com/online/college-hs/college/2009/07/pressure-cooker/

[El_Diablo]

More on Mason and for what its worth, Slam Magazine have been giving our guys a lot of love lately.

http://www.slamonline.com/online/college-hs/college/2009/07/pressure-cooker/

Nice article. This was probably my favorite excerpt:


“He always had a 4.0 GPA, he was well liked and respected by his peers, and he was really just a caring kid,” says Gaines. “I was happy to see that he had genuine interests outside of basketball. I will say this though, we’ve had nine players placed in Division 1 programs, he’s the most ferocious competitor I’ve ever been around.”

[hustleplays]

Forgive me if there's another thread that deals with this -- I didn't find it -- but have any of you posters been watching the NCProAm at NCCU this summer? Mason and Ryan (not to mention Kyle and Jon) have been playing regularly, against some very good competition (and not so good). Both are very good, lengthy players -- both have excellent handles, have great instinct, go strong to the hoop, they finish, with style, they can shoot, they still think they can dribble the length of the floor -- that's ok, it's a summer league and they are having fun and showing above average ball handling skills -- and they are tough, no backing down. Both are above what I was expecting. Guys, we have some really good tall players in the post, and they haven't yet begun Duke practices! Finally, no surprise, but not something to take for granted, they are the type of players and people that make us dukies proud -- they are gentlemen, team players, always respectful, friendly, gracious and accommodating to fans asking for pictures and autographs. They are justifiably very popular with the local fans at NCCU.

Jon and Kyle show night in night out why/how they are great players, against some amazingly athletic ballers.

If you haven't been out to NCCU on tuesday and thursday, beginning at 6 pm, get out there. Where else can you see blue devils and tar heels playing on the same team? Along with players like Chris Duhon, PJ Tucker and Larry Stackhouse.
Again, I apologize if this has been super covered elsewhere.

[Kedsy]

Forgive me if there's another thread that deals with this -- I didn't find it -- but have any of you posters been watching the NCProAm at NCCU this summer?

I don't want to suggest you didn't look hard enough, but you didn't look hard enough: http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16398&page=5

[hustleplays]

You're right, I didn't. It was late and I missed it. I'll apologize again, and thanks for pointing it out.

[ACCBBallFan]

Even though there is a separate thread on NCCU games, it might be good to dicuss on this thread how much one can glean on the Plumlees and Ryan Kelly's readiness.

We all know the danger of the Olek syndrome from last year's NCCU.

But it seems Jon teaming with Mason and Kyle teaming with Miles should pay some mini dividends.

As I recall Lance when he played was with UNC guys Ed Davis and Reggie Bullock, and I think Ryan Kelly may be playing for WR Starkey now too.

Ryan Kelly was originally listed on a very small roster of Team KG with NC State's Tracy Smith who with teammate Farnold Degand has been playing on E-Net with Kyle and Miles.

These games are more run an gun than any indication of what the Duke frosh and sophs will need to earn more PT - defense.

Current roster showing Mason up to 230 is a big plus and Kelly at 220 is a plus over when they were initially listed at 205 and 210. Ditto for Miles listed at 240, all at 6'10".

Are they getting pushed around by bigger and stronger guys at NCCU?