Scheyer in the NBA?

[CMARTZ]

Does anyone know whether or not Scheyer is considering playing professionally? No one ever talks about his NBA potential but it seems like he'd do all right, provided that he bulk up a bit.

[speedevil2001]

Does anyone know whether or not Scheyer is considering playing professionally? No one ever talks about his NBA potential but it seems like he'd do all right, provided that he bulk up a bit.

well he has 1 more year at duke to improve his stock.
but right now i believe scheyer can make an nba roster as a shoot guard. get drafted in the second round.

Who in the league is scheyer comparable too? he is not a dunleavy or redick. maybe like a jon barry or john paxon. maybe they just have their first name in common.

im surprise its going to be scheyers senior year already. not sure if he made his mark on the duke program just yet. this will be his year. i would like to see him be a more agressive scorer and create a bit more, rather than pick his spots.
i dont know what he career averages are but 16ppg, 4 apg. 4 rpg 35 min during his senior year sounds about right. 2nd team all acc.

[flyingdutchdevil]

well he has 1 more year at duke to improve his stock.
but right now i believe scheyer can make an nba roster as a shoot guard. get drafted in the second round.

Who in the league is scheyer comparable too? he is not a dunleavy or redick. maybe like a jon barry or john paxon. maybe they just have their first name in common.

im surprise its going to be scheyers senior year already. not sure if he made his mark on the duke program just yet. this will be his year. i would like to see him be a more agressive scorer and create a bit more, rather than pick his spots.
i dont know what he career averages are but 16ppg, 4 apg. 4 rpg 35 min during his senior year sounds about right. 2nd team all acc.

As much as I love Scheyer and believe that he is the second, if not most, important asset on next year's squad, I just can't see him in an NBA jersey.

Scheyer brings a lot to the table - a decent shot, decent defense, great leadership, great passing - he is Mr. Versatility on our team. And, as we know, versatile players get drafted all the time - Jeff Green, Derrick Brown, Shane Battier. That said, what these players have in common is size, strength, and above-average athleticism (I personally think Battier is more athletic that people give him credit for). Scheyer has decent height, some athleticism and little strength. The best example I can give is during the Nova game, when he went to the rim and was frequently blocked by an UNDERSIZED team. In the NBA, Scheyer would never be able to drive. On top of that, his shot alone can't get him drafted.

I hope Scheyer proves me wrong, gets draft and succeeds in the NBA. I really do. However, as of right now, I just don't see it.

Remember, just because a player is a huge asset to a team does not mean that he will be drafted and play in the NBA (not to mention succeed).

[heyman25]

I think Scheyer might make it. However I agree that Singler and Scheyer have to be fantastic for Duke to go far in The post season.

[BlueintheFace]

A SG that is a bit undersized, a bit too slow, lacks explosive jumping ability, and will be 22 if he declares... I'd be surprised if he went in the 2nd round, but I'd be rooting for him all the same.

[yancem]

I'd be curious to hear Jumbo chime in on this thread. He posted several times on this subject during Scheyer's freshman and sophomore seasons. He seemed to think that Scheyer was well regarded by nba scouts and that he would be playing in the league when all was said and done.

I wasn't nearly as confident then and probably am less so now. Scheyer is a very good college player and may have the chance of being a bench contributor in the nba. The problem is that his growth curve has been relatively flat. He came into college with a well rounded game and a broad skill set. Since then he has developed a deeper understanding of the game but I can think of any areas of major improvement. His shot, dribbling, passing and defense have improved incrementally but nothing jumps out.

Contrast that with Redick. He came in pretty much as just a shooter but left a complete scorer. His defense and overall conditioning improved dramatically. Scheyer I think came in ahead of Redick in all areas except pure shooting but is for the most part the same player he was as a freshman. A very good player but I think he will need to have a real breakout senior season showing major improvements in some or all areas of his game to work his way into the first round.

[dukeENG2003]

A SG that is a bit undersized, a bit too slow, lacks explosive jumping ability, and will be 22 if he declares... I'd be surprised if he went in the 2nd round, but I'd be rooting for him all the same.

His best shot is to try and make it as a PG. He's certainly got a lot ot work on to make it at that position, but its his best shot.

He's got shooting, he's a decent passer, and his defense is actually pretty decent. I'm not sure if he could keep Tony Parker or Chris Paul in front of him, but who can. . . I can see him going undrafted but making it somewhere as a backup PG. Think about it this way. Anthony Johnson is in the league as a backup PG for the Magic. What skills does he posess that Scheyer doesn't? What about Shannon Brown? Jose Barea? Anthony Carter?

I'm not saying he's a lock by any means, just saying that with his good work ethic, his shot (and ability to take that shot off the dribble, not jsut a spot up shooter), reliable ball handling, decent passing ability (needs to work on this though), above average height for the position, and decent defense he's got a chance.

[flyingdutchdevil]

His best shot is to try and make it as a PG. He's certainly got a lot ot work on to make it at that position, but its his best shot.

He's got shooting, he's a decent passer, and his defense is actually pretty decent. I'm not sure if he could keep Tony Parker or Chris Paul in front of him, but who can. . . I can see him going undrafted but making it somewhere as a backup PG.

Considering that Scheyer isn't great at driving or finishing at the rim, PG sounds a little out of the question.

What Scheyer needs to do is gain a lot of weight, work on his shot, and work on penetrating.

[CDu]

I agree with most of these posts. I think Scheyer has a chance to get drafted in the second round, but is unlikely to be more than a role player at best.

He has the right height for the SG spot, but lacks the explosiveness and the strength for the position. And he doesn't have any particular skill that stands out at the NBA level besides free throw shooting. And I don't know that he can draw enough fouls at the NBA level to make that skill useful.

Yancem's post sums it up. Scheyer has progressed at a relatively flat rate. I think much of that is due to athleticism/explosiveness. Scheyer came into college with a very advanced understanding of how to score, but lacking in strength and explosiveness.

He certainly has enough athletic ability and creativity to make his game work at the college level, as evidenced by his very productive career at Duke. But I don't think he has the athleticism/explosiveness to make that game work as a SG in the NBA.

I certainly hope I'm wrong. I always like to see Duke guys make it in the NBA. But I just don't see it.

[CDu]

His best shot is to try and make it as a PG. He's certainly got a lot ot work on to make it at that position, but its his best shot.

He's got shooting, he's a decent passer, and his defense is actually pretty decent. I'm not sure if he could keep Tony Parker or Chris Paul in front of him, but who can. . . I can see him going undrafted but making it somewhere as a backup PG. Think about it this way. Anthony Johnson is in the league as a backup PG for the Magic. What skills does he posess that Scheyer doesn't? What about Shannon Brown? Jose Barea? Anthony Carter?

I'm not saying he's a lock by any means, just saying that with his good work ethic, his shot (and ability to take that shot off the dribble, not jsut a spot up shooter), reliable ball handling, decent passing ability (needs to work on this though), above average height for the position, and decent defense he's got a chance.

Those aren't really good comparisons. Shannon Brown is an explosive athlete who plays primarily off the ball alongside Kobe Bryant - not PG. Anthony Johnson is a pure PG with a 3:1 assist:turnover ratio. Barea is extremely quick and is a pure playmaker at PG. Anthony Carter was at one point a very quick, pure PG who has now aged into a savvy veteran pure point guard.

Scheyer doesn't really have much in common with those guys. If he somehow developed into a pure PG, maybe he could fit into the Anthony Johnson mold. But I don't think it's likely that a guy who has been as pure a wing player as Scheyer has been is going to morph into a complete PG at the NBA level.

[CDu]

Considering that Scheyer isn't great at driving or finishing at the rim, PG sounds a little out of the question.

What Scheyer needs to do is gain a lot of weight, work on his shot, and work on penetrating.

I'd agree with this. Richard Hamilton is the prototype here. If Scheyer can get a faster release on his shot and get a little stronger, he could be a poor man's version of Hamilton. He's shorter (and doesn't have Hamilton's wingspan), not as strong, and less athletic, and doesn't have the quick release on the shot (especially off the dribble) like Hamilton. But that's the type of game Scheyer will need to emulate I think.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

One of my favorite Duke players destined for Europe or coaching.

Simply not athletic enough for the NBA.

[SupaDave]

Just about all of you guys are WAY off and not only underestimate coaching in the NBA but also Jon's basketball IQ.

Facts:

Jon can shoot
Jon can draw fouls
He's more athletic than you think
He's listed as 6'5 - so he's tall enough
Guards in the NBA are getting old - fast
Teams are using the inside-outside game increasingly more

And you guys are forgetting about folks like Kirk Hinrich, Kyle Kover, Andre Miller, Smush Parker, Luke Ridnour, Sam Cassel, and Daniel Gibson who are all limited in some way but are all still in the NBA. John has many of the skills of the aforementioned and many that they don't - one of which will be his coachability.

[dukelifer]

Does anyone know whether or not Scheyer is considering playing professionally? No one ever talks about his NBA potential but it seems like he'd do all right, provided that he bulk up a bit.

My gut tells me that he will have a hard time as lacks the size and strength of most NBA players. As noted, His release is also very slow and needs to be a more consistent shooter. But that said, Scheyer moves incredibly well on the court and has an amazingly high bball IQ. He will get a serious look but he will need to find an ideal situation. He may be drafted in the second round simply because people will know what they are getting with him- a coachable kid who does not make many mistakes on the floor. I think the old time coaches will be rooting for him as they probably see a lot of themselves in Scheyer.

[gvtucker]

I wasn't nearly as confident then and probably am less so now. Scheyer is a very good college player and may have the chance of being a bench contributor in the nba. The problem is that his growth curve has been relatively flat. He came into college with a well rounded game and a broad skill set. Since then he has developed a deeper understanding of the game but I can think of any areas of major improvement. His shot, dribbling, passing and defense have improved incrementally but nothing jumps out.

When Scheyer was a sophomore, Duke experimented with him at point guard. That didn't work out at all. Scheyer never looked comfortable there, and his game suffered. As a junior, when he went to point guard, he was in complete control of the game. Duke went on its best run of the season with Scheyer at the point. Most importantly, he never turned the ball over. That is significant progress.

Looking forward, the one thing he needs to improve on is shooting. He's always been a fine scorer, but he hasn't been a consistent shooter. If Scheyer can get to the point that an open jumper is money for him, he's a solid first round pick in the NBA.

[SupaDave]

I'd agree with this. Richard Hamilton is the prototype here. If Scheyer can get a faster release on his shot and get a little stronger, he could be a poor man's version of Hamilton. He's shorter (and doesn't have Hamilton's wingspan), not as strong, and less athletic, and doesn't have the quick release on the shot (especially off the dribble) like Hamilton. But that's the type of game Scheyer will need to emulate I think.

I totally disagree. I think Kirk Hinrich is a better comparison and this is what they said about him TOO...


Hinrich was selected by the Chicago Bulls in the 2003 NBA Draft with the seventh overall pick, resulting in mild surprise because he had been expected to be a mid to late first-round draft pick. Some doubted that his college game would translate successfully to the professional league, in part because he played shooting guard for his final two years in college, but was considered too small to play that position professionally. Hinrich's high selection in the draft is credited to a good workout in front of NBA team scouts

[gvtucker]

I totally disagree. I think Kirk Hinrich is a better comparison and this is what they said about him TOO...

Hinrich had much better speed than Scheyer has. They really aren't close. Scheyer also much improve his outside shot significantly to be on par with Hinrich, but that is something that I think is achievable. For the speed thing, though, there's not much Scheyer can do.

[Billy Dat]

Unless something dramatic happens next year, I don't see him being a first rounder and getting that guaranteed money. However, he'll definitely get his chance to try out for a number of teams via summer league. Unless he decided to go to Europe before giving the NBA a real shot, I am sure he'll be in training camp fighting like a mad dog for one of those coveted spots. As we've seen with a lot of guys, what happens at camp is really random - with a ridiculously small window to make an impression, you need to catch lightning in a bottle - have a few great scrimmages back-to-back right out of the gate, maybe someone ahead of you on the depth chart gets hurt, etc. Scheyer is so sneaky good in so many areas of the game, you can't rule him out. One thing that the recent generation of Duke players has shown is that they won't be pushed out of the league too easily.

[MADevil30]

I think Jon's progress this year will be a big factor in his NBA prospects. With the guard situation being what it is, he will have his hands on the ball and be will be running the offense a lot (I think last year proved that Jon is the more solid bet at PG than Nolan). If he progresses in his ability to drive and create his own shot and keeps his assist to turnover ratio as low as it was when he was running the point at the end of last season, he could have a decent shot at making an NBA roster.

One issue that might stand in his way is that defensively he seems to thrive in the zone but have a little more trouble man-on-man. Since he will never be a real scorer in the league, he will need to be solid on defense, but NBA teams run a lot more man than zone.

With a solid year I could definitely see Jon as a late second round pick with a shot at sticking on a roster and working his way up the bench. Conversely, he seems to be the prototypical European style player, so he will have that to fall back on and could have quite a productive career on the other side of the pond he chooses to go that route.

[CDu]

I totally disagree. I think Kirk Hinrich is a better comparison and this is what they said about him TOO...

Kirk Hinrich is a terrible comparison in my opinion. Hinrich was stronger, quicker, and more explosive than Scheyer. He was also much more of a pure PG than Scheyer. He's better off the dribble and a better distributor. Hinrich is a natural combo guard (maybe even better suited to be a PG than a combo guard) whereas Scheyer is a pure SG.

Yes, Hinrich played SG his last two years of college, but only because Aaron Miles was brought into the mix. It's sort of like how Jason Williams moved off the ball when Duhon came to Duke, but was still capable of playing PG.

[SupaDave]

Hinrich had much better speed than Scheyer has. They really aren't close. Scheyer also much improve his outside shot significantly to be on par with Hinrich, but that is something that I think is achievable. For the speed thing, though, there's not much Scheyer can do.

Kirk Hinrich concluded his career with averages of 12.4 ppg, 4.7 apg, 3.8 rpg, while shooting .493 from the floor, including .430 from behind the arc.

Now go take a look at Scheyer's career so far - he has the potential to blow this out the water this year. Something tells me we wont be seeing much slumping this year.

[JasonEvans]

I just paged Jumbo. Seriously.

Scheyer will make money playing basketball after next season. Whether in the NBA or elsewhere is open for debate.

I think his chances of making an NBA roster are decent. He has the size (6-5) to play 2guard in the NBA, which is something that holds back a lot of successful college wings who are a couple inches shorter than Jon. He is an excellent defender, which will help. I think his offensive assertiveness and arsenal need to expand a bit and he needs to develop more consistency on his outside shot. Still, I won't be at all surprised to see him earning an NBA paycheck.

--Jason "but then again, I wear Duke-blue blinders so what do I know ;) " Evans

[CDu]

Kirk Hinrich concluded his career with averages of 12.4 ppg, 4.7 apg, 3.8 rpg, while shooting .493 from the floor, including .430 from behind the arc.

Now go take a look at Scheyer's career so far - he has the potential to blow this out the water this year. Something tells me we wont be seeing much slumping this year.

Not sure what your point is here, as college stats are not that highly correlated with pro success. But even playing this game, Scheyer is going to only match Hinrich's RPG, and he's not going to come remotely close to Hinrich's career averages for APG, FG%, and 3pt FG%.

And pointing to their college stats still ignores the larger point that Hinrich and Scheyer are blessed with very different skill sets. It's not a reasonable comparison.

[CDu]

I just paged Jumbo. Seriously.

Scheyer will make money playing basketball after next season. Whether in the NBA or elsewhere is open for debate.

I think his chances of making an NBA roster are decent. He has the size (6-5) to play 2guard in the NBA, which is something that holds back a lot of successful college wings who are a couple inches shorter than Jon. He is an excellent defender, which will help. I think his offensive assertiveness and arsenal need to expand a bit and he needs to develop more consistency on his outside shot. Still, I won't be at all surprised to see him earning an NBA paycheck.

--Jason "but then again, I wear Duke-blue blinders so what do I know ;) " Evans

I agree that he'll probably earn an NBA paycheck. I just don't think he'll have a huge impact in the NBA. He's got a slow release on his shot, and I don't think he's athletic enough to draw fouls like he has in college.

I could be wrong, but I just don't see it.

[NSDukeFan]

I agree with most of these posts. I think Scheyer has a chance to get drafted in the second round, but is unlikely to be more than a role player at best.

He has the right height for the SG spot, but lacks the explosiveness and the strength for the position. And he doesn't have any particular skill that stands out at the NBA level besides free throw shooting. And I don't know that he can draw enough fouls at the NBA level to make that skill useful.

Yancem's post sums it up. Scheyer has progressed at a relatively flat rate. I think much of that is due to athleticism/explosiveness. Scheyer came into college with a very advanced understanding of how to score, but lacking in strength and explosiveness.

He certainly has enough athletic ability and creativity to make his game work at the college level, as evidenced by his very productive career at Duke. But I don't think he has the athleticism/explosiveness to make that game work as a SG in the NBA.

I certainly hope I'm wrong. I always like to see Duke guys make it in the NBA. But I just don't see it.

I think I agree with your basic feeling on Scheyer's success after school in that I think he will make the jump to the league, but may not have a great impact as a second rounder or free agent.

I do however disagree with the statement that Jon has progressed at a flat rate (I now see that you said relatively). I think his pro potential may not have increased over his career at Duke, but I think it would be untrue to say that as a college player he hasn't progressed much. He was just co-MVP of a 30 win team and ACC tournament MVP. I don't think he was there as the sixth man the year before or as a freshman. I think he has made great strides and look for him to continue his progression and be an extremely solid senior leader next year.

Sorry if I'm nitpicking a bit.

[CDu]

I think I agree with your basic feeling on Scheyer's success after school in that I think he will make the jump to the league, but may not have a great impact as a second rounder or free agent.

I do however disagree with the statement that Jon has progressed at a flat rate (I now see that you said relatively). I think his pro potential may not have increased over his career at Duke, but I think it would be untrue to say that as a college player he hasn't progressed much. He was just co-MVP of a 30 win team and ACC tournament MVP. I don't think he was there as the sixth man the year before or as a freshman. I think he has made great strides and look for him to continue his progression and be an extremely solid senior leader next year.

Sorry if I'm nitpicking a bit.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that he hasn't made any progress in college. He definitely has progressed some in his overall game and has expanded to take a more expanded role offensively. I was just saying that on the NBA prospect curve, his progress has been relatively flat.

That's not to say he hasn't been a fantastic college player. He's been terrific at Duke and I expect him to continue to be terrific this year.

[SupaDave]

I agree that he'll probably earn an NBA paycheck. I just don't think he'll have a huge impact in the NBA. He's got a slow release on his shot, and I don't think he's athletic enough to draw fouls like he has in college.

I could be wrong, but I just don't see it.

But WHAT is a 'huge' impact in the NBA? People are still criticizing Dwight Howard's game for Christ's sake. JJ and Jamer Nelson went to the NBA finals this year but would you say they've made huge impacts to the NBA?

[CDu]

But WHAT is a 'huge' impact in the NBA? People are still criticizing Dwight Howard's game for Christ's sake. JJ and Jamer Nelson went to the NBA finals this year but would you say they've made huge impacts to the NBA?

I mean regular starter and key contributor. In other words, Nelson has made a big impact, Redick has not (yet). Unless he improves his ability to hit the jumper (and shoot quickly), I don't see him being more than a fringe NBA player.

Yes, he draws fouls in college. But I don't think he'll be able to do that in the NBA. And right now, is the strength of his game is his ability to draw fouls. He's a good shooter (especially from the line) but not good enough right now to have that be the basis of his game.

None of the guys you mentioned as comparisons are good comps. They are all either very quick point guards, very quick combo guards, or very big shooting guards with lights-out shots. Scheyer is a good shooter, but not a marksman from the field.

I could be wrong and he may be able to use his savvy to continue to draw fouls at the next level. I certainly hope he does. But I just don't think he will.

[gvtucker]

None of the guys you mentioned as comparisons are good comps. They are all either very quick point guards, very quick combo guards, or very big shooting guards with lights-out shots. Scheyer is a good shooter, but not a marksman from the field.

Andre Miller.

He's not quick. He doesn't have a lights out shot. He's just a darn good basketball player.

[gw67]

I'm continually amazed at the players who make rosters in the 24-second game. I think both Scheyer and Vasquez have an outside chance at sticking with a team next year if they are picked up by the right teams. Both also have the option of playing overseas. Perhaps Scheyer would not be counted as an american player on the teams in Israel. Tal Brody, like Scheyer, was a nice player for Illinois many years ago and he had a terrific career playing in Israel and was known throughout the country.

I don't have the data in front of me but I suspect that Scheyer will finish his career in the top 25-30 at Duke for total points and average, and in the top 5 for free throw shooting.

gw67

[Carlos]

I just paged Jumbo. Seriously.



Seriously, I'm amazed this thread has gone a full day without Jumbo weighing in. Seriously, there must be something wrong with the Scheyer Alarm in Jumbo's office.


Andre Miller.

He's not quick. He doesn't have a lights out shot. He's just a darn good basketball player.

Unfortunately this violates the White Guys Can Only Be Compared to White Guys rule so it can't be applied.

[Greg_Newton]

Yeah, I'm not sure any of the previous comparisons work too well... Heinrich was a slasher and regularly dunked on people in college, Korver was 6'9, and the rest were either pure PGs or combo guards that were natural penetrators.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see him go in the second round or see him get picked up after the draft, and stick around the league awhile. I see him as kind of a modern-day Steve Kerr or Jeff Hornacek... a guy who physically doesn't really seem like he belongs there, but just flat out makes plays and gets it done. He's probably never going to be an All-Star, but with his savvy I could see him being a valuable second-team weapon or complimentary talent if he bulks up and gets his jumper to automatic status. He just seems like someone you would want on your team, even if he doesn't fit a clear prototype or role.

[CDu]

Andre Miller.

He's not quick. He doesn't have a lights out shot. He's just a darn good basketball player.

He's also a pure PG, so he doesn't compare to Scheyer. He's also a lot stronger. That was my point about those other guys. They were either super quick, point guards, combo guards, or really big marksmen. Or they fit multiple of those attributes.

[RepoMan]

Yeah, I'm not sure any of the previous comparisons work too well... Heinrich . . . Korver . . . I see him as kind of a modern-day Steve Kerr or Jeff Hornacek.


In contrast, this analysis fits nicely with the the white guy v white guy comparison rule.

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

Seriously, I'm amazed this thread has gone a full day without Jumbo weighing in. Seriously, there must be something wrong with the Scheyer Alarm in Jumbo's office.



Unfortunately this violates the White Guys Can Only Be Compared to White Guys rule so it can't be applied.

Haha. Good call. How about Matt Carroll, or Marco Belinelli then? Matt Carroll is a little better at getting to the rim and Belinelli is a little more aggresive/athletic...

[SilkyJ]

Think about it this way. Anthony Johnson is in the league as a backup PG for the Magic. What skills does he posess that Scheyer doesn't?


well I'll give this one a try, he's not as fast or as athletic. Exhibits A & B:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smOryljEBtk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m3EEb1hOUc



I totally disagree. I think Kirk Hinrich is a better comparison and this is what they said about him TOO...

I think Hinrich's PG abilities are ahead of Scheyer's; Hinrich has led the bulls to the playoffs multiple times as their starting PG. And I think he's faster, but its a decent comp. If Hinrich is Scheyer's ceiling in the NBA, well, that ain't so bad.




Andre Miller.

He's not quick. He doesn't have a lights out shot. He's just a darn good basketball player.

Unfortunately this violates the White Guys Can Only Be Compared to White Guys rule so it can't be applied.

AHAHAHAHA. I choked on my chips laughing at that one.

Seriously though, its not a good comp either as Miller has been a pure PG since college and may not be CP3 quick, but is plenty quick.

Maybe at the end of the day there is no comp. Just like when everyone tried to compare him to JJ when he came to Duke, which didn't fit. Lets just let Scheyer be Scheyer. Personally, I don't see him in the NBA, but he has one more season to change my mind.

[SupaDave]

He's also a pure PG, so he doesn't compare to Scheyer. He's also a lot stronger. That was my point about those other guys. They were either super quick, point guards, combo guards, or really big marksmen. Or they fit multiple of those attributes.

But you missed my point entirely - all of those guys I listed are guys with some holes in their game. Scheyer is a well rounded player and sometimes it's not about being faster, quicker, or stronger - it's about going out there and doing what the coach wants.

Jon's got two more summers to work on strength (well one and a half now). He's easily NBA material in a league that is always looking for more skill.

And if he tweaks his shot just a little he's easily as good as Anthony Morrow...
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Anthony-Morrow-1003/

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

But you missed my point entirely - all of those guys I listed are guys with some holes in their game. Scheyer is a well rounded player and sometimes it's not about being faster, quicker, or stronger - it's about going out there and doing what the coach wants.

Jon's got two more summers to work on strength (well one and a half now). He's easily NBA material in a league that is always looking for more skill.

And if he tweaks his shot just a little he's easily as good as Anthony Morrow...
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Anthony-Morrow-1003/

Easily NBA material? Easily as good as Anthony Morrow? It's good to be optimistic but that's a little questionable. You only get second round sleepers like Morrow every couple of years - he shot 47% from behind the arc which was top 10 in the NBA.

[SupaDave]

Easily NBA material? Easily as good as Anthony Morrow? It's good to be optimistic but that's a little questionable. You only get second round sleepers like Morrow every couple of years - he shot 47% from behind the arc which was top 10 in the NBA.

Well it's a good thing there's two years between Scheyer and Morrow. I'm sorry but if Balkman is in the NBA - there's no way Scheyer doesn't get his name called.

[CDu]

But you missed my point entirely - all of those guys I listed are guys with some holes in their game. Scheyer is a well rounded player and sometimes it's not about being faster, quicker, or stronger - it's about going out there and doing what the coach wants.

And you missed mine. All of those guys have a specific NBA skill that makes them particularly useful. Some of them have multiple attributes that prepare them for success in the league. Scheyer - to this point - does not have a particular skill that stands out from the NBA perspective in my opinion. His best quality is his ability to get to the free throw line, which I don't think is going to translate to the NBA (where the defenders are better).


Jon's got two more summers to work on strength (well one and a half now). He's easily NBA material in a league that is always looking for more skill.

And if he tweaks his shot just a little he's easily as good as Anthony Morrow...
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Anthony-Morrow-1003/

Yes - IF Scheyer gets substantially stronger and improves his shooting stroke (and the quickness on his shot), he has a chance. And that may happen. But I haven't seen anything yet that screams successful NBA player.

But pointing out examples like Morrow is not a strong argument. He has surprised everyone to be successful. Finding exceptional cases isn't the best evidence that Scheyer will make it. And even Morrow was quicker and a better shooter than Scheyer.

[CDu]

Well it's a good thing there's two years between Scheyer and Morrow. I'm sorry but if Balkman is in the NBA - there's no way Scheyer doesn't get his name called.

Again - apples and oranges. Balkman is an "energy guy" as an undersized PF. There are lots of those guys in the league. There are not a lot of guys like Scheyer in the league. The requisite level of skill at the big man spot is a lot lower.

[SupaDave]

Again - apples and oranges. Balkman is an "energy guy" as an undersized PF. There are lots of those guys in the league. There are not a lot of guys like Scheyer in the league. The requisite level of skill at the big man spot is a lot lower.

Wow - you guys have every reason why he might not make it hunh. Guess he couldn't compete against the likes of NBA jaggernauts such as Sebastian Telfair, Quincy Douby, Earl Watson, Mike Wilks, and Roko Ukic.

[mgtr]

I think that Scheyer might well make it in pro ball somewhere, but does he want to? I know nothing about him except what he does on the court and what has been posted here. Based on that info alone, I would guess he is a really, really smart guy, and could have a good career doing something besides basketball. Now, if he is a fringe NBA player, he could still take grad courses and move towards some (unknown, admittedly) goal. That would be much harder in Europe. So, on balance, I don't see him playing except in the NBA.
By the way, talking about fringe players (and, I guess, slow white guys) I submit the name of Don Nelson (with whom I went to high school). He played for the Lakers (unsuccessfully) and ended up at the Celtics where he turned into a pretty good sixth man. And after playing, he has made a few dollars in the NBA. Maybe a fair comparison for Scheyer.

[jimsumner]

Yes, Jon Scheyer is a bright guy.

Yes, he wants to play in the NBA.

The two aren't mutually exclusive, as far as I know.

Chances of Scheyer playing in the NBA? Pretty good, I would say. His athleticism is decent, his skill set is way above decent, and that intelligence thing won't hurt. To paraphrase Bob Seger, he could use a few pounds.

I'm not saying they're going to carve out a place in Springfield for him but I could see Scheyer being a solid role player in the NBA for some time.

[FireOgilvie]

I would love to see Scheyer make it in the NBA. Love it. I don't see it happening at this point though. If he would have gone out after this year, he wouldn't be drafted. I don't see Scheyer getting drafted when DeMarcus can't even get drafted. He would have to start averaging 5+ assists or shoot comfortably over 40% from 3 if he wants to get drafted.

The Scheyer/Hinrich comparison isn't very close, IMO. Scheyer has 246 career assists through 3 seasons. Hinrich had 229 assists... in his sophomore year alone (6.9/game). Hinrich was also a lights-out 3 pt shooter (43% for his career). That's higher than Scheyer's career total field goal percentage (41%).

Edit: The post above mine says that Scheyer's athleticism is "decent." I wouldn't say that. I would say he'd be in the bottom 10 - 15 percent of the NBA for guards.

[CDu]

Wow - you guys have every reason why he might not make it hunh. Guess he couldn't compete against the likes of NBA jaggernauts such as Sebastian Telfair, Quincy Douby, Earl Watson, Mike Wilks, and Roko Ukic.

Again - apples and oranges. Those guys are all PG. They have a very different set of skills that make them useful to an NBA team that Scheyer does not possess. You keep bringing up irrelevant examples of guys who have a DIFFERENT particular skill that got them to the league.

I'm not saying Scheyer has no chance to stick in the NBA. But you have to understand that Scheyer plays the toughest position at which to land a job in the NBA. Good SG are a dime a dozen. And to this point, I haven't seen what in his game will translate to the league and make him stick. Maybe he'll improve as a shooter. Maybe he'll get a lot stronger. Maybe he'll really learn how to play PG. If he can do one (or more) of those things, he certainly has a chance to stick. But I just don't think the game he's shown to this point is going to translate.

That's not to say I don't love Scheyer's game. He's a terrific player. I've very much enjoyed watching him play, and I can't wait to see him play his senior year at Duke. But there are plenty of terrific players that don't make it in the NBA.

[BlueintheFace]

A lot of you are taking the wrong angle in answering the question; WILL JON PLAY IN THE NBA?

Calling out subpar roll players on NBA team means nothing and has no effect on Jon playing in the NBA. No scout, coach, or organization looks at the proverbial talent basement of the NBA and says, "Hey, this guy is better than those suckers."

It also does very little good to talk about whether or not you think Jon CAN BE A SOLID NBA PLAYER. This means very little. There are hundreds and hundreds of college grads, high school players, and JC players that COULD have been solid role players in the NBA, but circumstances didn't allow for it. This issue is just a threshold issue that must come before the debate about whether or not one thinks Jon WILL play in the NBA.

I think the method of analysis has to be something like this:

1) Can he play in the NBA.
1a) at what position?

If you are not a surefire NBA player, the scouts HAVE TO peg you at a position or two because role players are there to fill a need (three point shooting, defense, extra fouls, etc...). What position would Jon play? Well, the answer is NOT point guard. He has the smarts and the vision (and the three point shot), but just not the quickness. In this league, if you are a young PG prospect you HAVE to have quickness.... it's just that simple. Jon does not have this. He's certainly not a SF prospect. Looks like it's going to be SG.

Okay, Jon Scheyer as a backup SG. I'll buy it as a Duke fan, but will the personnel people in the front offices?

2) Where does he rank compared to other SG prospects (for the NBA... not College people!... it's a big difference)?

I'm just going to throw some other names out there of potential NBA SGs that I believe would likely go ahead of him.

Xavier Henry
Jerome Dyson
Willie Warren
James Anderson
Sylven Landesberg
Manny Harris
Evan Turner
Avery Bradley
... and one or two foreign guys

I firmly believe that most of the above prospects are SGs that (at least now) would be higher on the Draft Board for NBA teams than Jon.... Sooooo, chances of him getting drafted don't look great IMO. (By the way- if you are going to toss out college basketball stats at me for any of the above people, just don't waste your time because that would mean that you don't understand what goes on here. I don't care who had more PPG and the NBA scouts don't really either.)

3)If Jon isn't drafted, what are his chances?

As with every undrafted prospect... not great. Still, let's look at his strengths and weaknesses for the NBA level.

Strengths:
-Intelligence- No doubt about this one... especially on the defensive end.
-Vision- I suspect that we will see more of this attribute than before in the upcoming season
-Team player (this is where the Duke history really works in his favor. NBA teams know that they will get a "team" guy),
-Three-point shooter with time

Weaknesses-
-Jump shot- VERY slow release
-Quickness/athleticism-- I know, I know. Count me as one of those who thinks Jon is a solid athlete in the college game. I hate it when people argue otherwise. Still, compare him to other SGs in the NBA... even just the backups who are there as defensive stoppers.
-Height for his position- have you seen him in person? 6'4" at most.
-strength- this one is obvious
-upside--one of the strongest arguments against him might be that you get what you get and there isn't a lot of growing for him to do as a basketball player with his skill set and body type.

Unfortunately, when it comes to undrafted players, a lot of teams seem to go for super athletic guys with a lot of upside. In other words, Not Jon. However, there is a recent trend to sign undrafted players who can knock down the three consistently. If a team thinks Jon could be that guy, then I think he can find a place in the NBA.

I think Jon COULD play in the NBA, but I just don't think he WILL play in the NBA with the way talent evaluation goes these days and with teams having the priorities they do. In the mean time, let's just enjoy Jon the Duke team captain for another year.

[Hancock 4 Duke]

I just got back from Duke Basketball Camp, and Scheyer let us ask him questions after a lecture. Someone asked if he was considering the NBA, and he said that he was definitely not. He was just concentrated on Duke right now.

[CDu]

I just got back from Duke Basketball Camp, and Scheyer let us ask him questions after a lecture. Someone asked if he was considering the NBA, and he said that he was definitely not. He was just concentrated on Duke right now.

Well, that's the right attitude to take. Focus on your life in college while you're here. When the time comes (i.e., May/June of next year), the NBA will either be attainable or it won't.

[SupaDave]

Again - apples and oranges. Those guys are all PG. They have a very different set of skills that make them useful to an NBA team that Scheyer does not possess. You keep bringing up irrelevant examples of guys who have a DIFFERENT particular skill that got them to the league.

I'm not saying Scheyer has no chance to stick in the NBA. But you have to understand that Scheyer plays the toughest position at which to land a job in the NBA. Good SG are a dime a dozen. And to this point, I haven't seen what in his game will translate to the league and make him stick. Maybe he'll improve as a shooter. Maybe he'll get a lot stronger. Maybe he'll really learn how to play PG. If he can do one (or more) of those things, he certainly has a chance to stick. But I just don't think the game he's shown to this point is going to translate.

That's not to say I don't love Scheyer's game. He's a terrific player. I've very much enjoyed watching him play, and I can't wait to see him play his senior year at Duke. But there are plenty of terrific players that don't make it in the NBA.

I'm sorry - I couldn't hear you b/c all I kept thinking was that Scheyer ended the year as the starting ummmm... POINT GUARD!!

[CDu]

I'm sorry - I couldn't hear you b/c all I kept thinking was that Scheyer ended the year as the starting ummmm... POINT GUARD!!

I really hope this was in jest, because nothing about what Scheyer did late last season qualifies him as a PG in the NBA. He merely dribbled the ball up the court. He didn't guard the other team's PG. He didn't take a distributing role. He played SG but dribbled the ball up the court. We played most of last season without a true PG.

Don't get me wrong - Scheyer did a fantastic job of not turning the ball over (and remaining an effective scorer) for us late in the season in a time of borderline crisis. But filling in as an emergency ballhandler doesn't really make him a PG in the eyes of the NBA.

[speedevil2001]

I'm sorry - I couldn't hear you b/c all I kept thinking was that Scheyer ended the year as the starting ummmm... POINT GUARD!!

just because he ended the year as the starting point guard, doesnt mean thats his natural position in the nba.
why are you comparing him to point guards?

The position you play in the nba is usually the position you can guard. He will play the shooting guard in the nba.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I really hope this was in jest, because nothing about what Scheyer did late last season qualifies him as a PG in the NBA. He merely dribbled the ball up the court. He didn't guard the other team's PG. He didn't take a distributing role. He played SG but dribbled the ball up the court. We played most of last season without a true PG.

Don't get me wrong - Scheyer did a fantastic job of not turning the ball over (and remaining an effective scorer) for us late in the season in a time of borderline crisis. But filling in as an emergency ballhandler doesn't really make him a PG in the eyes of the NBA.

I have agreed with everything that CDu has said on this thread. A bunch of you have stated that Scheyer is an all-round guy, coachable, and thus should be in the NBA. I have to respectfully disagree. Scheyer is indeed an all-round guy and indeed coachable, but those two facts alone will not get you drafted (even in the second round).

If you say Scheyer can play PG in the NBA, considering that a) Scheyer is not a natural PG, b) can't penetrate effectively, c) can't finish at the rim strongly, d) will have to guard the fastest position in the NBA, then you must be seeing something that I'm not.

Scheyer will also struggle against SGs. Remember when Scheyer was in that horrific shooting slump and got out of it when he became a PG last season? A huge part of that was because his height allowed him to shoot over smaller PGs. In the NBA, the SGs are bigger, stronger and more athletic than any guard in the ACC (G withstanding). Scheyer will severely struggle against them in this situation.

I really hope he gets drafted, even in the second round. Duke players have a knack of getting their contracts picked up when drafted in the 2nd round (see Duhon, McBob, was Ewing second round?). However, currently, as it stands through witnessing the past three seasons, I just don't see it in either position.

I don't know, maybe Scheyer has drastically improved his shot and penetration skills this offseason. Maybe he went on the Eric Cartman diet and gained 20. Maybe he trained with G every day of the week. The bottomline is, we don't know what Scheyer will be like next year. But if his game remains the same, I don't think the NBA will be an option.

[SupaDave]

just because he ended the year as the starting point guard, doesnt mean thats his natural position in the nba.
why are you comparing him to point guards?

The position you play in the nba is usually the position you can guard. He will play the shooting guard in the nba.


Ever heard the term "combo guard"?

[HK Dukie]

He's got a decent shot at making an NBA roster.

He can shoot, doesn't turn the ball over, has at least average size at 6'5'', and does all the little things that coaches love.

If there were one area I would highlight for him to work on it would be defending a taller, faster player 1on1. His defense in college is great, especially the help defense. But he needs to train like Redick has trained in the past 3 years to get better guarding the likes of Ray Allen etc.

I think he has a much better chance than this board is giving him credit for. He can make a very good career in Europe if nothing else as a Trajan Langdon type of player.

[nicktonyg22]

One thing about Jon is that so much of what he does for Duke is intangible. The ridiculous save he made against Texas can't be recorded on the stat sheet, and because we only made it to the Sweet Sixteen, is really a play only remembered by Duke fans.

Jon will need not only a superb personal year, but an outstanding year for the team in order to be drafted. Jon does have the physical ability and height to make it in the NBA, as long as he shows what he is made of as a point guard. Scouts already know he can shoot the ball, but he must prove that he can handle the ball and defend. Teams need and want a versitile combo guard to bring off the bench. Jon can be that guy if he improves on a few areas and has a good scoring/assist numbers this season.

(Leading Duke to a National Championship wouldnt hurt either right?;))

If those factors don't line up, I still see Jon making it in Europe somewhere. His game might even translate better over there.

[shadowfax336]

There's been some disparagement of the comparisons so far with regards to Scheyer in the NBA.

A few more that might be more relevant:

NOTE: I'm saying that Jon projects to a shooting guard in the NBA, has below average but not poor athleticism for an NBA player, is in the 6'4-6'5.5 range with shoes (which I can verify having stood next to him multiple times and standing 6'4 with shoes myself, he's taller than me.), is a good but not great shooter, excellent scorer, very smart player, and good defender. You can argue any of those points as you will, but my case is based on that view of him.

So:

Keith Bogans: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Keith-Bogans-1715/

Courtney Lee http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Courtney-Lee-471/playerblog/

Devin Brown: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Devin-Brown-1843/playerblog/

Charlie Bell: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Charlie-Bell-1648/

if he improved his jumpshot:
Roger Mason: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Roger-Mason-Jr-3455/

Damon Jones: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Damon-Jones-3049/

[kmspeaks]

One thing about Jon is that so much of what he does for Duke is intangible. The ridiculous save he made against Texas can't be recorded on the stat sheet, and because we only made it to the Sweet Sixteen, is really a play only remembered by Duke fans.


First I admit I don't really follow the NBA so I really don't know but could these type of intangible things be more valued now? Remember the article discussed here earlier about Shane and how much the Rockets value his intangible contributions and how they are even finding new ways to track these contributions?

[whereinthehellami]

First I admit I don't really follow the NBA so I really don't know but could these type of intangible things be more valued now? Remember the article discussed here earlier about Shane and how much the Rockets value his intangible contributions and how they are even finding new ways to track these contributions?

Shane's intangibles versus Jon's intagibles are two different kinds of fruits. Shane's intangibles allowed for him to carry the team on his back and win a championship.

[kmspeaks]

Shane's intangibles versus Jon's intagibles are two different kinds of fruits. Shane's intangibles allowed for him to carry the team on his back and win a championship.

I wasn't trying to say Jon could be Shane. I honestly don't have a clue whether or not Jon could succeed in the NBA because I don't watch the NBA. I just remembered reading that article on Shane and wondered if maybe the NBA front offices would value intangibles a little more than others have in this discussion.

[UrinalCake]

Kind of an odd question here... does anyone else think that Scheyer has kind of a long neck? I think that skews his height somewhat. Elton Brand was said to have a really short neck, which combined with his long wingspan allows him to play much bigger than his actual height. In Jon's case though, it unfortunately means he's not "really" as tall as he might appear. Not trying to rag on Scheyer here... I actually have sort of a long neck myself, though it doesn't disrupt my ability to write computer code 8-).

I do think that him being drafted depends a lot on how well the team does. If they go far, he'll be seen as a "winner," in addition to gaining all the exposure that comes with it.

[CDu]

Ever heard the term "combo guard"?

I've heard of the term. That term does not apply to Scheyer.

[SupaDave]

I've heard of the term. That term does not apply to Scheyer.

You sure about that?


"Tweener" may also describe a player who combines the attributes of a shooting guard and point guard, but does not fit the prototype of either position. Such guards usually play a shooting-guard-type game (looking more to score than to pass) but lack the height to guard opposing shooting guards effectively and some of the skills to direct an offense that a "pure" point would display. Such players are also known as "combination (or combo) guards".

[CDu]

You sure about that?

Yup. Scheyer doesn't possess the quickness or playmaking ability to be considered a combo guard. As I said, the fact that he happened to dribble the ball up the court for us last year doesn't make him a combo guard.

Combo guards are usually undersized two guards with the quickness to defend point guards. They have some playmaking ability but not enough to be pure PG.

Scheyer doesn't have the quickness/athleticism of a combo guard, and he's even lighter on the playmaking skills than the typical combo guard. He's a shooting guard plain and simple.

[SupaDave]

Yup. Scheyer doesn't possess the quickness or playmaking ability to be considered a combo guard. As I said, the fact that he happened to dribble the ball up the court for us last year doesn't make him a combo guard.

Combo guards are usually undersized two guards with the quickness to defend point guards. They have some playmaking ability but not enough to be pure PG.

Scheyer doesn't have the quickness/athleticism of a combo guard, and he's even lighter on the playmaking skills than the typical combo guard. He's a shooting guard plain and simple.

Please see above b/c you are not really making sense. A shooting guard who initiates the offense sounds like he's doing a combination of things to me.

[CDu]

Please see above b/c you are not really making sense. A shooting guard who initiates the offense sounds like he's doing a combination of things to me.

I read it fine the first time. You're simply reading too much into "initiate the offense" statement and it's misleading you. To be a true combo guard, you need to have more of a PG game than simply dribbling the ball up the court. That's all Scheyer did. If that were the minimum requirement to be a combo guard, then nearly every SG would qualify as a combo guard.

For example, Richard Hamilton is capable of bringing the ball up the court without turning it over. That doesn't make him a combo guard. He's a shooting guard, through and through. They same applies to Scheyer.

The real combo guards have shown some ability to create off the dribble and make plays. In short, they are capable of being productive NBA point guards in brief stretches, but shouldn't necessarily be counted on as the full-time PG. Scheyer hasn't shown that skill set.

The combo guards you have mentioned are all much quicker and much more capable of running the offense and creating for themselves and others than Scheyer. That's why they're NBA combo guards. Scheyer is a shooting guard at the NBA level.

[SupaDave]

I read it fine the first time. You're simply reading too much into "initiate the offense" statement and it's misleading you. To be a true combo guard, you need to have more of a PG game than simply dribbling the ball up the court. That's all Scheyer did. If that were the minimum requirement to be a combo guard, then nearly every SG would qualify as a combo guard.

For example, Richard Hamilton is capable of bringing the ball up the court without turning it over. That doesn't make him a combo guard. He's a shooting guard, through and through. They same applies to Scheyer.

The real combo guards have shown some ability to create off the dribble and make plays. In short, they are capable of being productive NBA point guards in brief stretches, but shouldn't necessarily be counted on as the full-time PG. Scheyer hasn't shown that skill set.

The combo guards you have mentioned are all much quicker and much more capable of running the offense and creating for themselves and others than Scheyer. That's why they're NBA combo guards. Scheyer is a shooting guard at the NBA level.

I'm quite sure that Scheyer could easily initiate a pick and roll immediately after bringing the ball up the court. If you doubt he can do this then maybe you haven't watched enough of the NBA. If JJ can pick up point skills then there is no doubt in my mind that Jon can.

[Greg_Newton]

Please see above b/c you are not really making sense. A shooting guard who initiates the offense sounds like he's doing a combination of things to me.

Can you name a combo guard in the NBA who is not a good penetrator?

I love Scheyer, but this is starting to get a little silly. There's nothing wrong with standing up for our boys, but objectively shouldn't just be thrown out the window. CDu has been making very well-substantiated points, and there's no need to get defensive and call him out in every reply.

[CDu]

I'm quite sure that Scheyer could easily initiate a pick and roll immediately after bringing the ball up the court. If you doubt he can do this then maybe you haven't watched enough of the NBA. If JJ can pick up point skills then there is no doubt in my mind that Jon can.

The pick and roll is not the be-all end-all of NBA offense. And running the pick and roll doesn't make you a combo guard. JJ hasn't picked up PG skills. He's just gotten good at making entry passes from the wing and on pick-and-rolls. Redick isn't a combo guard. He's a wing player. He just happens to play on a team with a point forward that can allow him to guard exceptionally slow guards like Fisher. It's a VERY specific situation.

You apparently fail to see that Scheyer isn't quick enough to guard NBA PG. He's not going to play any PG in the NBA. Beyond running the pick and roll, he doesn't have the playmaking skills to play primarily on the ball in the NBA. Therefore, he's not a combo guard.

I also doubt he's athletic/physical enough to defend the shooting guard spot at the NBA level. And he's definitely not shown the shooting touch necessary to be a shooting specialist in the NBA. If he improves his strength and shooting touch, maybe he can make it as a regular backup shooting guard.

There have been a lot of good posts by others in this thread. You should read them. You're not grasping the concept of what gets you to make it in the NBA, as evidenced by bringing up countless bad comparisons of guys who are in the league.

I've loved having Scheyer at Duke and he's been a fantastic player for us. But he's simply not a combo guard at the NBA level, and I don't think he has the skillset or athleticism to make it as a shooting guard in the NBA (at least from what we've seen to this point).

[SupaDave]

Can you name a combo guard in the NBA who is not a good penetrator?

I love Scheyer, but this is starting to get a little silly. There's nothing wrong with standing up for our boys, but objectively shouldn't just be thrown out the window. CDu has been making very well-substantiated points, and there's no need to get defensive and call him out in every reply.

Yep - easy - Jason Terry.

I'm not being defensive - I simply don't agree.

[CDu]

Yep - easy - Jason Terry.

I'm not being defensive - I simply don't agree.

Terry was quick enough to defend PG in the NBA. And he was at one point a good distributor/playmaker. So while he isn't/wasn't necessarily a good penetrator, he had a skill that allowed him to be a combo guard. Scheyer doesn't have that.

[SupaDave]

The pick and roll is not the be-all end-all of NBA offense. And running the pick and roll doesn't make you a combo guard. JJ hasn't picked up PG skills. He's just gotten good at making entry passes from the wing and on pick-and-rolls. Redick isn't a combo guard. He's a wing player. He just happens to play on a team with a point forward that can allow him to guard exceptionally slow guards like Fisher. It's a VERY specific situation.

You apparently fail to see that Scheyer isn't quick enough to guard NBA PG. He's not going to play any PG in the NBA. Beyond running the pick and roll, he doesn't have the playmaking skills to play primarily on the ball in the NBA. Therefore, he's not a combo guard.

I also doubt he's athletic/physical enough to defend the shooting guard spot at the NBA level. And he's definitely not shown the shooting touch necessary to be a shooting specialist in the NBA. If he improves his strength and shooting touch, maybe he can make it as a regular backup shooting guard.

There have been a lot of good posts by others in this thread. You should read them. You're not grasping the concept of what gets you to make it in the NBA, as evidenced by bringing up countless bad comparisons of guys who are in the league.

I've loved having Scheyer at Duke and he's been a fantastic player for us. But he's simply not a combo guard at the NBA level, and I don't think he has the skillset or athleticism to make it as a shooting guard in the NBA (at least from what we've seen to this point).

According to a few of you guys apparently the only thing that gets you into the NBA is having the skills of Kobe Bryant b/c everyone is fast and tall and Jon just simply couldn't match up with a bunch of Kobes. (God forbid someone actually have good fundamentals like say ummmm, Larry Bird!).

No one said JJ was a combo - we're talking about picking up point guard skills - something I think Jon could do quite easily with his basketball IQ.

Teams in the NBA run the same plays over and over and over again. How much playmaking would he REALLY have to do?

You guys are willing to accept that certain people are in the league even though they dont even get off the bench but don't think Scheyer can get on a team? Ridiculous is all I'm saying.

[SupaDave]

Terry was quick enough to defend PG in the NBA. And he was at one point a good distributor/playmaker. So while he isn't/wasn't necessarily a good penetrator, he had a skill that allowed him to be a combo guard. Scheyer doesn't have that.

Had... BUT is STILL in the NBA...

[CDu]

According to a few of you guys apparently the only thing that gets you into the NBA is having the skills of Kobe Bryant b/c everyone is fast and tall and Jon just simply couldn't match up with a bunch of Kobes. (God forbid someone actually have good fundamentals like say ummmm, Larry Bird!).

That's not remotely accurate. I'm saying that what gets you drafted and makes you a regular in the league is having, at the very least, a plus-level skill at the NBA level. If you're underathletic, you need to be either big for your position or REALLY good at a particular skill. Scheyer doesn't have that.


No one said JJ was a combo - we're talking about picking up point guard skills - something I think Jon could do quite easily with his basketball IQ.

Basketball IQ doesn't necessarily mean you can pick up PG skills. Redick has I high basketball IQ and hasn't picked up PG skills. Neither player is going to play PG in the NBA.


Teams in the NBA run the same plays over and over and over again. How much playmaking would he REALLY have to do?

Well, if teams just run the same play over and over and there's no playmaking to be done, then why have a point guard at all, right? You've oversimplified the NBA game here. Scheyer won't be playing PG in the NBA. As such, he won't need to be a playmaker. But his problem at SG is that his lack of strength, low percentage shooting, and lack of athleticism means he isn't likely to bring enough offensively to warrant major playing time there.


You guys are willing to accept that certain people are in the league even though they dont even get off the bench but don't think Scheyer can get on a team? Ridiculous is all I'm saying.

All of the examples you've mentioned are either guys who are way more athletic, much better shooters, point guards, or "energy" guys in the post. In other words, they all have a specific skill set that gets them in a rotation. Scheyer doesn't fit any of those.

If all you're saying is that Scheyer COULD find a spot on the end of the bench with the skills he's shown to this point, then I don't necessarily disagree. In the right circumstance, anything can happen. But I don't think that's a meaningful discussion - or what most of us are really discussing.

[CDu]

Had... BUT is STILL in the NBA...

And he's STILL quick enough to defend PG. And he's a better shooter than Scheyer. So what's your point?

Again, you have to do SOMETHING that a PG can do at an NBA level to be a combo guard. Scheyer doesn't do anything that a PG does. Therefore he's not a combo guard. You're arguing minute details and failing to see the big picture.

[mkirsh]

Jeff Hornacek is a great comparison for Scheyer, although maybe a slightly better shooter. Problem is that I'm not 100% sure Hornacek would find a spot in today's NBA.

Depsite playing "point" in a relatively position-less Duke offense last year, IMO Scheyer does not have NBA point offensive skills, and isn't quick enough to defend NBA points (wasn't quick enough to defend college points last year, Elliott and Nolan drew those assignments). That said, I do think people underestimate Scheyer's D in general, and could see him possibly carving out a Raja Bell-type role in the NBA. Obvisously no one can guard the Kobe's and D-Wade's of the world, but I do think Scheyer could play sufficient D on some of the other 2 guards around. I'd take my chances with Scheyer guarding some of the SG's in this year's playoffs - Ray Allen, Courtney Lee, John Salmons, Richard Hamilton, Roger Mason, etc. Not all matchups would be perfect and Jon would need to get a bit stronger and knock down his shot more consistently to get there but I don't think it's out of the question to be a second rounder and stick if in the right spot. Might even be better to go undrafted and select a coach/system that would give a better chance of hanging around. Not sure I would bet on Jon making it to the NBA, but don't think it's 0% likely either. Somewhere around 30% chance is where I would peg it.

[NCSU&UNCgrad]

Scheyer can do anything steve blake can do.

I believe Blake played significant PG minutes this past season.

[BlueintheFace]

Had... BUT is STILL in the NBA...

You can't look at it that way. When you are evaluating YOUNG talent, you want to see the quickness. The older guys have earned their stripes and are allowed to be a step slow sometimes due to all of the experience and other qualities they have proven in the NBA.

Young talent is NEVER judged by that baseline standard. If you look around the league at all the rest of the young guards and see that they are quicker, better penetrators or defenders than the prospect you are looking at... it's not good.

In other words, players like Terry and Fisher are not relevant to evaluation of young talent like Scheyer for the scouts.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

Scheyer can do anything steve blake can do.

I believe Blake played significant PG minutes this past season.

Steve Blake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Blake#College_career) dished out 972 assists averaging over six assists per game in each of his four years, including averages of 7.9 and 7.1 in 2002 and 2003, respectively. He also led his team to 2 Final Fours and a national title. So far Jon (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=518)has 246 assists with 1 trip to the Sweet 16. Jon would have to average about 24 assists per game this year to be as good as Blake. Sounds like a pretty special senior season and that guy would definitely find a spot in the NBA.

[_Gary]

I'm in complete agreement with yancem's post on the first page of this thread. In fact after I read the first couple of posts I was thinking exactly the same thing he was. Look, I love Jon as much as the next guy and will root like crazy for him to get to the NBA and make some type of impact on a team. But it's hard for me to see that right now for all the reasons that have been expressed by others: lack of speed/quickness and athleticism being the biggies.

I could be wrong, but I thought Jumbo alluded to something after Jon and Gerald's freshmen year where he said some NBA scouts actually looked at Jon as being the better prospect of the two. I'm confident that assessment has changed since then. Still, I'd love for Jon to make it in the NBA.

[Wander]

At the college level, Scheyer is a pretty decent defender and has not-terrible athleticism (on both counts, underrated nationally and overrated by many here). He's not an "excellent" defensive player or athlete though, and he'd be far below average at both in the NBA.

I guess stranger things have happened, but I wouldn't expect it.

[miramar]

It seems that even Jon is keeping up with this question.

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/scheyer-keeping-up-with-draft-stock

[yancem]

I am still surprised that We haven't heard from Jumbo on this subject. He seemed to have strong opinions about it a year or two ago. Have I missed his post or has he truly been silent?

[Azdukefan]

Jon has been scrutinized for his scrawny body but the most recent photos I have seen have him have made me wonder whether or not he has made enough of a leap to be on the NBA radar and with an excellent year next year potentially get drafted. Of all the guys on the roster, it is obvious Jon loves Duke as much as any of them (if not more) and I have yet to hear of a kid more deserving of winning since JJ left. You have heard rumblings of this player potentially leaving and that player potentially leaving and Jon has never been in those conversations. That says a lot about his character and hope that he gets to experience a deep NCAA run along with a solid NBA career. Enough of my man crush!

[ice-9]

Unless you're a top prospect, I don't think being "all rounded" is sufficient. Scheyer is a "jack of all trades, master of none," and unfortunately, at his level, I think you need to be a master of something to make it.

Scheyer is a decent shooter, but not a great one.
He is a good defender, but won't be able to lock down NBA SGs.
He is a good passer, but he cannot pass like a PG.
He can handle and dribble, but he cannot really penetrate.
He can make foul shots, but he won't be able to draw fouls in the NBA.
He's not slow, but he's not fast.
He understands offensive and defensive schemes, but games still have to be played, not just understood.

Redick made it because he's an excellent shooter. Dahntay made it because he is freakishly athletic and a great defender. Shelden was drafted because he has size, shot blocking and rebounding. Duhon made it because he is a true PG, even if his shot is inconsistent.

When I think of Scheyer I think...this guy isn't good enough to start. So, if he's going to be a role player, what role is he going to play? What gap is he going to fill? What special skill does he bring? I struggle to come up with answers.

I think he has a chance to make it, and I'll be rooting like crazy for him, but at this point I'd say there's a higher probability he'll be outside the NBA than in it.

Hopefully he'll prove me wrong with a magnificent season!

IMO, his best chance of making the NBA is to develop his shot from decent to excellent. If he can shoot like Curry or Harden he can make it to the NBA.

I agree with CDu in that Scheyer's chances at PG are smaller than at SG.

[Saratoga2]

Unless you're a top prospect, I don't think being "all rounded" is sufficient. Scheyer is a "jack of all trades, master of none," and unfortunately, at his level, I think you need to be a master of something to make it.

Scheyer is a decent shooter, but not a great one.
He is a good defender, but won't be able to lock down NBA SGs.
He is a good passer, but he cannot pass like a PG.
He can handle and dribble, but he cannot really penetrate.
He can make foul shots, but he won't be able to draw fouls in the NBA.
He's not slow, but he's not fast.
He understands offensive and defensive schemes, but games still have to be played, not just understood.

Redick made it because he's an excellent shooter. Dahntay made it because he is freakishly athletic and a great defender. Shelden was drafted because he has size, shot blocking and rebounding. Duhon made it because he is a true PG, even if his shot is inconsistent.

When I think of Scheyer I think...this guy isn't good enough to start. So, if he's going to be a role player, what role is he going to play? What gap is he going to fill? What special skill does he bring? I struggle to come up with answers.

I think he has a chance to make it, and I'll be rooting like crazy for him, but at this point I'd say there's a higher probability he'll be outside the NBA than in it.

Hopefully he'll prove me wrong with a magnificent season!

IMO, his best chance of making the NBA is to develop his shot from decent to excellent. If he can shoot like Curry or Harden he can make it to the NBA.

I agree with CDu in that Scheyer's chances at PG are smaller than at SG.

Jon is the same size as John Havelichek (SP) and about as gifted. He is a better ball handler that John was and has the same durability (Can play the whole game)

What you point out is true, he is not outstanding at any one phase of the game, but I see there will be a place for him in the league if he wants it. He would probably be a backup player if he makes it.

[Billy Dat]

Jon is the same size as John Havelichek (SP) and about as gifted. He is a better ball handler that John was and has the same durability (Can play the whole game).

And if this was 1965, I'd say Scheyer was a lock for the NBA. Unfortunately, it's 40+ years later and players are much bigger, faster and stronger.

I don't see him being a first round pick so like Boozer and Duhon and Shav and McRoberts and Markie, he's going to have to scrap and make a team.

[jimsumner]

Don't underestimate Havlicek's athleticism. He almost made the Cleveland Browns as a wide receiver.

Havlicek, btw, was considered a defensive specialist coming out of OSU. Not much of a scorer.

Of course, Havlicek was a college teammate of Mike Kryzewski's college coach. Does that make him an honorary Dukie?

[SilkyJ]

You have heard rumblings of this player potentially leaving and that player potentially leaving and Jon has never been in those conversations. That says a lot about his character

I'm sure Jon's character is top notch, but the fact that he hasn't been rumored to leave early or transfer says absolutely nothing about his character. It says that he hasn't projected as a pro in the NBA yet, and of course he hasn't transferred b/c he's been a 30mpg player since his freshman year.

[airowe]

Jon is the same size as John Havelichek (SP) and about as gifted. He is a better ball handler that John was and has the same durability (Can play the whole game)

Would a more relavant comparison be Jeff Hornacek? I'm too young to remember his college career and definitely too young to know much, if anything, about Havlicek but Scheyer's ability to create off the dribble, his imagination on the court and his 3PT shooting do remind me of Hornacek's days with the Jazz.

I would be very happy if Jon had a similar career to Jeff's.

[Kedsy]

Would a more relavant comparison be Jeff Hornacek? I'm too young to remember his college career and definitely too young to know much, if anything, about Havlicek but Scheyer's ability to create off the dribble, his imagination on the court and his 3PT shooting do remind me of Hornacek's days with the Jazz.

I would be very happy if Jon had a similar career to Jeff's.

Hornacek's assist averages were 6.8, 4.9, and 6.6 his last three years at Iowa State. They didn't have three-pointers then (although players still took the shot and Jeff was an outside shooter), but Hornacek's overall shooting percentage for those three years was about 50%.

I'm not saying anything one way or the other about Jon Scheyer's chances to make the NBA, but his college "career path" seems very different from Jeff Hornacek's.

[Maxwell1977]

Don't underestimate Havlicek's athleticism. He almost made the Cleveland Browns as a wide receiver.

Havlicek, btw, was considered a defensive specialist coming out of OSU. Not much of a scorer.

Of course, Havlicek was a college teammate of Mike Kryzewski's college coach. Does that make him an honorary Dukie?

Supposedly John could throw a football 80 yards. Quick, without using Google (not you Jim), who was the star of Havlicheck's OSU teams?

[Azdukefan]

I'm sure Jon's character is top notch, but the fact that he hasn't been rumored to leave early or transfer says absolutely nothing about his character. It says that he hasn't projected as a pro in the NBA yet, and of course he hasn't transferred b/c he's been a 30mpg player since his freshman year.

We are going to have to agree to disagree here. It came down to Duke and Illinois for his services out of high school and if he "reopened" his recruitment after his freshman or sophmore year, ten plus top notch school would be drooling for him to head their way (including Illinois). Being a sixth man on a team where you should undoubtedly start (see his sophomore year) is enough for most kids these days to jump ship but Jon stuck around and did exactly what the coaches asked of him with class. That hasn't always been the case for every player in this program. If you want out, you can find a reason to get out (not naming anyone in particular).

[Welcome2DaSlopes]

As of now Harrison Barnes is projected #1 pick for 2011 and Elliot Williams is ahead of Kyle Singler and Nolan Smith is a second round pick

[SilkyJ]

We are going to have to agree to disagree here. It came down to Duke and Illinois for his services out of high school and if he "reopened" his recruitment after his freshman or sophmore year, ten plus top notch school would be drooling for him to head their way (including Illinois). Being a sixth man on a team where you should undoubtedly start (see his sophomore year) is enough for most kids these days to jump ship but Jon stuck around and did exactly what the coaches asked of him with class. That hasn't always been the case for every player in this program. If you want out, you can find a reason to get out (not naming anyone in particular).

OK. I thought you were more talking about leaving early to go pro. Yes, he handled being the 6th man with class, I will grant you that, but he played the 3rd most minutes on the team (28.3mpg, right behind Singler's 28.6mpg, and AHEAD of Gerald's 26.2mpg) so it really wasn't all that it was made out to be considering it was Gerald that was starting ahead of him and he played more minutes than him.

[Matches]

I believe Jon will be drawing a paycheck to play basketball for a long time. Simply put, he is an excellent all-around basketball player. He also seems to bring a number of intangibles that will be of value to the teams he plays for.

I think the NBA is a longshot, mostly for reasons others have stated more eloquently than I could. Jon is a better athlete than many realize, and I could see him being a 2nd round draft pick and/or making a team as an undrafted rookie. I think he will struggle to find a lasting spot on an NBA roster.

And that's not the worst thing in the world. I expect he can make a very nice living playing overseas. I also think he'd be an excellent coaching prospect eventually.

[MChambers]

Supposedly John could throw a football 80 yards. Quick, without using Google (not you Jim), who was the star of Havlicheck's OSU teams?

Jerry Lucas?

[NovaScotian]

Would a more relavant comparison be Jeff Hornacek? I'm too young to remember his college career and definitely too young to know much, if anything, about Havlicek but Scheyer's ability to create off the dribble, his imagination on the court and his 3PT shooting do remind me of Hornacek's days with the Jazz.

I would be very happy if Jon had a similar career to Jeff's.

i've said it here before, but i think the best comparison is daniel ewing - jon is a slightly better shooter, and daniel was a slightly better defender, but they have had similar duke careers to this point especially with jon expected to be playing more point his senior year. daniel was drafted early in the second round, but flamed out early (probably earlier than he should have because of that infamous play with raja bell (ifrc)). if jon shows consistency this year and a real ability to play point, he could find a place in somewhere even though it would be a long shot to see his get realy pt.

[jimsumner]

RE: Havlicek and Lucas. Larry Siegfried, Joe Roberts, and Mel Nowell also made NBA rosters from those OSU behemoths. Five NBA players from one college team is impressive these days but there were only 8/9 NBA teams in those days, so five was off the charts.

[Maxwell1977]

RE: Havlicek and Lucas. Larry Siegfried, Joe Roberts, and Mel Nowell also made NBA rosters from those OSU behemoths. Five NBA players from one college team is impressive these days but there were only 8/9 NBA teams in those days, so five was off the charts.

Knight and a redhead that I can't remember couldn't fully replace Roberts, thus only one championship. My first college game was against the Lucas et al defending champs in 1960. A favorite memory is watching the NC game that year with fans evenly divided between OSU and Cinci.