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SupaDave
06-04-2009, 01:43 PM
Ok - with the loss of several high profile shooters in the ACC year, who takes over the mantle of best shooter?

I've been toying with the idea of it coming down to the following:

Duke - Scheyer
UVA - Landesburg
BC - Reggie Jackson
FSU - Snaer
NCSU - Brown

Brown and Snaer are included b/c they are high level recruits who will see the floor immediately and well someone on their teams has to shoot.

Otherwise, the ACC is shaping up to look a lot like the Big East next year with a lot of inside play.

My vote? Scheyer. He'll be in a great position this year to get his shot off.

Wander
06-04-2009, 02:07 PM
Singler's going to be playing shooting guard and maybe even point guard on the All-ACC first team:

Landesburg, Singler, Aminu, Booker, Davis. Maybe one of the FSU frontcourt guys over Landesburg.

Not exactly a banner year for ACC guards.

yancem
06-04-2009, 02:11 PM
Ok - with the loss of several high profile shooters in the ACC year, who takes over the mantle of best shooter?

I've been toying with the idea of it coming down to the following:

Duke - Scheyer
UVA - Landesburg
BC - Reggie Jackson
FSU - Snaer
NCSU - Brown

Brown and Snaer are included b/c they are high level recruits who will see the floor immediately and well someone on their teams has to shoot.

Otherwise, the ACC is shaping up to look a lot like the Big East next year with a lot of inside play.

My vote? Scheyer. He'll be in a great position this year to get his shot off.

The best shooter in the acc next year will be sitting on the Duke bench, Seth Curry. Unfortunately he won't be available to play in real games so I think that Scheyer is as good of a candidate as anyone. Hopefully he does go through a month long slump like he did last season.

riverside6
06-04-2009, 02:53 PM
A couple names to add...Joe Trapani, Lance Storrs.

I would exclude Landesberg from any "shooter list". Scorer? yes, Shooter? no.

All that said, WOW, not many legit threats in the ACC next season.

Also, don't forget about that Ryan Kelly guy. ;-)

CDu
06-04-2009, 03:25 PM
If Teague returns, my money's on him. But he may not return.

Otherwise, there are lots of possibilities:
Smith, Scheyer, Singler, Delaney, Hayes (Maryland), Young (Clemson), Trapani (BC), Sanders (BC), Thomas (Miami), Storrs (GT). And that's just among returning players.

There'll be plenty of good shooters next year, though the conference did lose a lot of proficient and prolific shooters this year.

FireOgilvie
06-04-2009, 03:55 PM
Singler's going to be playing shooting guard and maybe even point guard on the All-ACC first team:

Landesburg, Singler, Aminu, Booker, Davis. Maybe one of the FSU frontcourt guys over Landesburg.

Not exactly a banner year for ACC guards.

Throw in Deon Thompson and Henson as guys that could be better than Davis on his own team.

Also, Derrick Favors. I think he's going to average 17+ points/game, 8+ rebounds/game. He could be 20/10 if Lawal leaves.

As far as best guards in the league, Scheyer has to be near the very top, along with Teague and Vasquez (if they come back). Also, add in Malcolm Delaney. All of these guards except Vasquez should be competing for the best 3 point shooter... with Singler as well.

CDu
06-04-2009, 04:16 PM
Amazing how quickly this thread has gone from a "who will be the best shooters in the ACC" into an All-ACC first-team discussion.

FireOgilvie
06-04-2009, 05:28 PM
Amazing how quickly this thread has gone from a "who will be the best shooters in the ACC" into an All-ACC first-team discussion.

My bad.

I think yancem is right about Seth Curry. He's going to have a lot of time to work on his shot before we see him.

Also, look out for Derwin Kitchen (FSU) next year.

Slackerb
06-05-2009, 11:28 AM
Sleeper best 3-point shooter: Scott Wood (NCSU)

Likely won't see much floor time, but is supposed to be a deadeye 3 point shooter.

Olympic Fan
06-05-2009, 12:39 PM
I refuse to rank somebody as the ACC's best shooter who has never played in the ACC --and if you are going to gush about the likes of Snaer and Brown and Wood, why not talk about the incoming recruit who won the 3-point shooting contest in the McDonald's A-A game? (Hint: He's going to be wearing the blue and white next season -- and not that sickening pale blue shade that babies wear).

The original premise of this thread is interesting in that eight of the top 10 3-point shooters from last season are all gone. The two remaining are:

No. 8 Jon Scheyer 79 3-pointers (2.1 a game)
No. 9 Malcolm Delaney 70 3-pointers (2.1 a game)

If we rank the top top returning based on 3-pointers made, we get (* indicates might return):

Scheyer, Duke 79
Delaney, VPI 70
Singler, Duke 69
Vasquez, Md* 66
Hayes, Md. 54
Trapani, BC 52
Sanders, BC 48
Teague, WF* 45
Thomas, Miami 40
Singleton, FSU 34

If you look at the 3-point percentage of the top 10, you get:

Teague 44.1
Scheyer 38.5
Singler 38.3
Hayes 37.5
Trapani 36.4
Thomas 35.7
Delaney 35.4
Singleton 33.3
Sanders 33.3
Vasquez 32.7

From those two lists, I could see making the case that Scheyer or Teague is the best returning shooter in the ACC (that's if Teague returns). Singler is probably the No. 2 or 3 guy (again, depending on Teague), ahead of Delaney and Hayes.

Some of the names suggested earlier might be good players and good scorers, but hardly qualify as top-flight shooters. BC's Reggie Jackson hit 18 of 66 3-point tries last season (27.3 percent). Virginia's Sylven Landesberg hit just 16 3-pointers as a freshman, shooting 31.4 percent from that range. Derwin Kitchen might qualify as a sleeper -- he hit just 15 3-pointers all last season (although he did hit a decent 36.6 percent). Lance Storrs is a slightly better candidate (30 3-pointers last season at 35.3 percent, which was better than his overall FG percentage of 33.8).

I think the same objection applies to some the incoming recruits. My understanding is that Snaer is a slasher ... Lorenzo Brown is more of an alll-around player than a shooter ... Scott Woods is their great hope as a shooter.

One delightful aspect of this subject is to look at how little our neighbors from Chapel Hill have returning in this area. Their top returning 3-point shooter, back from suspension, is Will Graves, who hit all of 10 of 36 3-pointers last season (27.8 percent). Larry Drew hit 6 of 26 (23.1 percent).

Nobody else returning hit even a single 3-pointer last season (even the two walk-ons who combined to his 6 3s were seniors and will be gone). UNC will get Marcus Ginyard back -- he hit 12 3-pointers two years ago. I guess that makes him UNC's top returning gunner.

whereinthehellami
06-05-2009, 01:35 PM
Delaney is going to have to step up big next year as Vassaillo (sp?) has graduated. He was having a great second half of the year before playing injured near the end. VT's season is in his hands next year. So he would be my pick to be the best 3-pt shooter for next year.

Slackerb
06-05-2009, 02:42 PM
I refuse to rank somebody as the ACC's best shooter who has never played in the ACC --and if you are going to gush about the likes of Snaer and Brown and Wood, why not talk about the incoming recruit who won the 3-point shooting contest in the McDonald's A-A game?

Most years, I'd agree with you, but as you point out, when the top 7 three point threats leave the league, you have to consider that the incoming freshmen might be the best the league has in this area.

Besides, it's all conjecture at this point....so why not include freshmen 3-point shooters?

Kelly did wint the 3-point contest, but is not known for great 3-point shooting. He'll keep defenders honest, but let's not pretend he's a sharpshooter.

Olympic Fan
06-05-2009, 04:44 PM
Kelly did win the 3-point contest, but is not known for great 3-point shooting. He'll keep defenders honest, but let's not pretend he's a sharpshooter.

Your comments about Kelly illustrate why its foolish to pre-annoint incoming players as "the best" ACC 3-point shooters. There's a difference between speculation and ill-informed speculation. I would suggest that many of us are relatively ill-informed about incoming freshmen.

For instance, your comment about Kelly is 180 degrees off what little I've seen and the far more informed info I've read and been told. Kelly is known for his long-range shooting. That's what makes him so special -- he's one of the best 6-9 shooters to come along in a long time. We don't have to pretend he's a sharpshooter -- that's what he's projected to be (and I invite Watzone or one of the other recruiting gurus to confirm or refute that supposition).

As for winning the McDonald's 3-point contest, Kelly is I believe the fourth future Blue Devil to win that award. The first three turned out to be:

-- Shane Battier, who ended up making 246 3-pointers at Duke (hitting 41.6 percent).

-- JJ Redick, who made an NCAA best 457 3-pointers at Duke (40.6 percent).

-- Nate James, who is the only one that didn't become a great 3-point shooter. And even he hit 111 career 3s (at a break-even 33.3 percent).

Small sample size, I freely acknowledge ... but still

FireOgilvie
06-06-2009, 02:04 AM
Your comments about Kelly illustrate why its foolish to pre-annoint incoming players as "the best" ACC 3-point shooters. There's a difference between speculation and ill-informed speculation. I would suggest that many of us are relatively ill-informed about incoming freshmen.

For instance, your comment about Kelly is 180 degrees off what little I've seen and the far more informed info I've read and been told. Kelly is known for his long-range shooting. That's what makes him so special -- he's one of the best 6-9 shooters to come along in a long time. We don't have to pretend he's a sharpshooter -- that's what he's projected to be (and I invite Watzone or one of the other recruiting gurus to confirm or refute that supposition).

As for winning the McDonald's 3-point contest, Kelly is I believe the fourth future Blue Devil to win that award. The first three turned out to be:

-- Shane Battier, who ended up making 246 3-pointers at Duke (hitting 41.6 percent).

-- JJ Redick, who made an NCAA best 457 3-pointers at Duke (40.6 percent).

-- Nate James, who is the only one that didn't become a great 3-point shooter. And even he hit 111 career 3s (at a break-even 33.3 percent).

Small sample size, I freely acknowledge ... but still


Kelly is a pretty good in-game shooter, but he's not a "sharpshooter." He is too inconsistent at this point. I was very very impressed by his McDonald's competition performance, but that didn't match what I've seen from him before. He only took a few 3s per game in the games I watched, so he didn't really rely on it. I know it was a year ago, but he made 2-11 3 pts in the FIBA U-18 Championships over 5 games. Mason actually made 2-4 3s. Singler is 6'8", and he was a more consistent shooter coming out of high school than Kelly. To be honest, the only person we've landed out of HS in the last few years that I would describe as a sharpshooter is Taylor King. He was awesome to watch in high school; he made shots from everywhere. I expect Kelly to really improve his shooting with another year of practice at Duke, but I don't see him even taking as many 3s at King did his freshman year in 9.7 minutes/game (114). Singler played a ton of minutes and shot 150 3s his freshman year.

ACCBBallFan
06-06-2009, 11:40 AM
Olympic Fan - thanks for taking the time to docuemtn some metrics. I agree with you about not being too hasty to cannonize in bound frosh.

Olympic Fan
06-06-2009, 01:12 PM
Look, just to be clear, I'm not trying to annoint Kelly as the best 3-point shooter in the ACC next year ... and I certainly don't want to get into a debate as to who qualifies as a "sharpshooter".

My point is that when we start projecting incoming frosh, we (and I include myself) usually don't know what the heck we are talking about. Anybody remember the hysteria on this board when we signed Lance Thomas? Anybody recall the hysteria here about Olek Czyz last summer when he was playing in a no-defense summer league?

My point about Kelly is that he has better credentials as a 3-point shooter -- a sharpshooter -- than most of the other guys being listed in this thread, especially Michael Snaer and Lorenzo Brown. Scott Wood has a great rep as a shooter too ... the 23-year-old Norwegian guy that Wake recruited was supposed to be a great shooter, but it turned out he didn't sign and is now is going to play pro ball in Europe (maybe as big a loss for the Deacs and Oglesby is for the Tigers).

It's tough for freshmen to come in and light it up -- just looking ar our own guys, Battier was 4-of-24 on 3's as a freshman -- he averaged over 43 percent over the next three years, hitting 212 more 3s; Bobbu Hurley went from 35.7 on 3s as a frosh to 42.1 as a senior; Laettner attempted one 3 as a freshman, he hit 55.7 percent (!) as a senior; Gerald Henderson raised his 3-point average 5 points in 3 years.

Basically that's why I don't expect any freshman to come in and lead the ACC as a three-point shooter, even in a year when 8 of the top 10 guys from last year left. I expect Scheyer and Singler to improve on their 3-point shooting ... the same with Delaney, Hayes and -- if he comes back -- Teague.

COYS
06-06-2009, 06:39 PM
I expect Scheyer and Singler to improve on their 3-point shooting ... the same with Delaney, Hayes and -- if he comes back -- Teague.
I agree with everything here except with Teague. He doesn't shoot a particularly large number of three pointers and I would not be surprised at all to see him come back down to earth a little on his percentages this next season . . . maybe around the 37-40% range.

SupaDave
06-06-2009, 06:44 PM
I refuse to rank somebody as the ACC's best shooter who has never played in the ACC --and if you are going to gush about the likes of Snaer and Brown and Wood, why not talk about the incoming recruit who won the 3-point shooting contest in the McDonald's A-A game? (Hint: He's going to be wearing the blue and white next season -- and not that sickening pale blue shade that babies wear).

The original premise of this thread is interesting in that eight of the top 10 3-point shooters from last season are all gone. The two remaining are:

No. 8 Jon Scheyer 79 3-pointers (2.1 a game)
No. 9 Malcolm Delaney 70 3-pointers (2.1 a game)

If we rank the top top returning based on 3-pointers made, we get (* indicates might return):

Scheyer, Duke 79
Delaney, VPI 70
Singler, Duke 69
Vasquez, Md* 66
Hayes, Md. 54
Trapani, BC 52
Sanders, BC 48
Teague, WF* 45
Thomas, Miami 40
Singleton, FSU 34

If you look at the 3-point percentage of the top 10, you get:

Teague 44.1
Scheyer 38.5
Singler 38.3
Hayes 37.5
Trapani 36.4
Thomas 35.7
Delaney 35.4
Singleton 33.3
Sanders 33.3
Vasquez 32.7

From those two lists, I could see making the case that Scheyer or Teague is the best returning shooter in the ACC (that's if Teague returns). Singler is probably the No. 2 or 3 guy (again, depending on Teague), ahead of Delaney and Hayes.

Some of the names suggested earlier might be good players and good scorers, but hardly qualify as top-flight shooters. BC's Reggie Jackson hit 18 of 66 3-point tries last season (27.3 percent). Virginia's Sylven Landesberg hit just 16 3-pointers as a freshman, shooting 31.4 percent from that range. Derwin Kitchen might qualify as a sleeper -- he hit just 15 3-pointers all last season (although he did hit a decent 36.6 percent). Lance Storrs is a slightly better candidate (30 3-pointers last season at 35.3 percent, which was better than his overall FG percentage of 33.8).

I think the same objection applies to some the incoming recruits. My understanding is that Snaer is a slasher ... Lorenzo Brown is more of an alll-around player than a shooter ... Scott Woods is their great hope as a shooter.

One delightful aspect of this subject is to look at how little our neighbors from Chapel Hill have returning in this area. Their top returning 3-point shooter, back from suspension, is Will Graves, who hit all of 10 of 36 3-pointers last season (27.8 percent). Larry Drew hit 6 of 26 (23.1 percent).

Nobody else returning hit even a single 3-pointer last season (even the two walk-ons who combined to his 6 3s were seniors and will be gone). UNC will get Marcus Ginyard back -- he hit 12 3-pointers two years ago. I guess that makes him UNC's top returning gunner.

This is some sick research. I would offer you a job. I basically took a quick mental scan of what had left and realized that just about everybody was leaving - except Grievous Vasquez, he was/is a wild card.

Honeslty, I expect two things to happen: Scheyer/Singler becomes the sweetest thing since sliced bread and Stockon/Malone or Fire/Ice that the ACC has ever seen OR some unknown like Anthony Morrow will begin setting nets on fire all over the ACC.

I included Landesburg b/c although he was an erratic scorer last year, he was also a freshmen that other teams began scheming for. This year he'll be a sophmore that other teams will be scheming for but the coaching staff has had an off-season of work-outs and they have a much clearer idea of what they are working with Landesburg. All of his shooting percentages should go up this year. He is classic Brian Stith if I must say so myself.

A freshman can make an impact. It's just a matter of who...

Carlos
06-06-2009, 09:38 PM
As for winning the McDonald's 3-point contest, Kelly is I believe the fourth future Blue Devil to win that award. The first three turned out to be:

-- Shane Battier, who ended up making 246 3-pointers at Duke (hitting 41.6 percent).

-- JJ Redick, who made an NCAA best 457 3-pointers at Duke (40.6 percent).

-- Nate James, who is the only one that didn't become a great 3-point shooter. And even he hit 111 career 3s (at a break-even 33.3 percent).

Small sample size, I freely acknowledge ... but still

You're forgetting Collins, Trajan, and Duhon who all won the contest.

Olympic Fan
06-08-2009, 11:54 AM
You're forgetting Collins, Trajan, and Duhon who all won the contest.

Are you sure? Well, if you add those three to the list, you get:

-- Collins ...209 3-pointers at 38.8 percent for his Duke career.

-- Langdon ... 342 3-pointers at 42.6 percent. Only Redick hit more 3's in his career and the only person with a better 3-point average was Laettner, who hit just 79 3's in his career.

-- Duhon ... hit 162 3's at 32 percent.

So that doubles our sample size without changing the results ... 4 out of 6 previous 3-point winners turned into outstanding 3-point shooters in college (Redick, Langdon, Battier and Collins) and two turned into fairly prolific, but fairly average 3-point shooters (James and Duhon).

Not bad odds for Mr. Kelly.

SupaDave
12-08-2009, 09:15 AM
Okay - so I'm revisiting this topic and to this point in the season the teams with the most made three pointers are as follows:

Clemson - 74 made in 9 games
Duke - 64 made in 8 games
Miam - 72 made in 9 games
Virgina - 43 made in 7 games
Florida State - 53 made in 9 games

A closer look at who's shooting these threes reveals that Clemson's David Potter is the most accurate followed by Andre Dawkins, Miami's Malcolm Grant, Maryland's Eric Hayes, and Georgia Tech's Brian Oliver (which is just freaky).

3-POINT FG PCT Cl GP 3FG 3FGA Pct
1. David Potter-CU SR 9 21 36 .583
2. Andre Dawkins-DU FR 8 20 39 .513
3. Malcolm Grant-UM SO 9 23 46 .500
Eric Hayes-MD SR 8 20 40 .500
Brian Oliver-GT FR 7 15 30 .500
6. Sammy Zeglinski-VA SO 7 15 32 .469
7. Deividas Dulkys-FS SO 9 20 50 .400
8. Jon Scheyer-DU SR 8 16 46 .348
9. Malcolm Delaney-VT JR 7 16 53 .302

And then a quick look at FGM...

3-POINT FG MADE Cl GP 3FG Avg/G
1. Malcolm Grant-UM SO 9 23 2.6
2. Andre Dawkins-DU FR 8 20 2.5
Eric Hayes-MD SR 8 20 2.5
4. David Potter-CU SR 9 21 2.3
5. Malcolm Delaney-VT JR 7 16 2.3
6. Deividas Dulkys-FS SO 9 20 2.2
7. Sammy Zeglinski-VA SO 7 15 2.1
Brian Oliver-GT FR 7 15 2.1
9. Jon Scheyer-DU SR 8 16 2.0
10. Adrian Thomas-UM SR 9 16 1.8
Andre Young-CU SO 9 16 1.8

It's very interesting considering that some think that Duke is such a 3 point shooting team but it's obvious that a lot of teams are chucking it up. Maryland and Clemson in particular.

We were wondering if any freshmen would come in and light things up originally in this thread and it appears that hasn't been the case outside of our own Andre Dawkins - whom we didn't even know about at the time and Georgia Tech's Brian Oliver - who wasn't even considered in this thread.

Turns out Scheyer somehow remains in pretty much the same spot he ended the year at and it should be interesting to see what this list looks like at the end of the season.

elvis14
12-08-2009, 09:55 AM
I hear that Dawkins kid at Duke can shoot the 3 a little :D

eightyearoldsdude
12-08-2009, 11:53 AM
Kelly is a pretty good in-game shooter, but he's not a "sharpshooter." He is too inconsistent at this point. I was very very impressed by his McDonald's competition performance, but that didn't match what I've seen from him before. He only took a few 3s per game in the games I watched, so he didn't really rely on it. I know it was a year ago, but he made 2-11 3 pts in the FIBA U-18 Championships over 5 games. Mason actually made 2-4 3s. Singler is 6'8", and he was a more consistent shooter coming out of high school than Kelly. To be honest, the only person we've landed out of HS in the last few years that I would describe as a sharpshooter is Taylor King. He was awesome to watch in high school; he made shots from everywhere. I expect Kelly to really improve his shooting with another year of practice at Duke, but I don't see him even taking as many 3s at King did his freshman year in 9.7 minutes/game (114). Singler played a ton of minutes and shot 150 3s his freshman year.

I believe Larry Drew II won the McDonald's shooting contest two years ago, so I wouldn't make too much hay out of that particular competition...

Azdukefan
12-08-2009, 12:39 PM
I believe Larry Drew II won the McDonald's shooting contest two years ago, so I wouldn't make too much hay out of that particular competition...

Yeah, you're right. I would have put credence behind the competition until I heard that god forsaken name as a winner.......JK. Let's use it as reference and just act like that year never happened. Sound good guys?

DukeBlueDevils47
12-08-2009, 03:03 PM
I think that Scheyer, Hayes, and Dawkins are the top 3

SupaDave
12-08-2009, 03:40 PM
I think that Scheyer, Hayes, and Dawkins are the top 3

in terms of what? Field goal percentage or attempted?

DukeBlood
12-08-2009, 04:59 PM
in terms of what? Field goal percentage or attempted?

What about Kyle Singler and Nolan Smith? They are shooting 38% and 40% from beyond the arc, isn't that top 10? Its higher then Scheyer

cameroncrazy3104
12-08-2009, 05:44 PM
I have only seen Andre's name mentioned maybe 3 times so far. After what we saw him do against Wisconsin, his name has to be at least mentioned. He is by far one of our best pure shooters.

DukeBlueDevils47
12-08-2009, 06:17 PM
What about Kyle Singler and Nolan Smith? They are shooting 38% and 40% from beyond the arc, isn't that top 10? Its higher then Scheyer
this is true but i would way rather have Scheyer shooting a 3 than Nolan towards the end of the game because Scheyer is a proven 3 point threat Nolan still seems a little inconsistent to me....Singler is a great shooter but in terms of top pure 3 point shooters he is not above Scheyer IMO.

SupaDave
12-08-2009, 09:54 PM
What about Kyle Singler and Nolan Smith? They are shooting 38% and 40% from beyond the arc, isn't that top 10? Its higher then Scheyer

Nolan (10) nor Kyle (14) has hit OR shot enough threes to be included just yet. It appears that the cut off is at least 15 3's made.