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View Full Version : NBA Frustration - Shelden Williams' PT



DavidBenAkiva
04-16-2007, 11:45 PM
In a late-season surge, Shelden Williams is averaging a little under 12 points and exactly 12 boards in around 35.5 minutes a game for the last 7 games. Why, WHY did the Hawks NOT play him the last MONTH before this. Did they honestly think the playoffs were in reach? Had Zaza Pachulia and Lorenzen Wright impressed the coaches at all? I'm beginning to understand why the Hawks and Magic have been bad for a while. They draft players to fill a need (low post rebounding and defense for Atlanta and perimeter scoring for the Magic) and then fail to properly utilize the players or even see if they were worth the pick in the first place. ARGGGHHH!!! I bet Atlanta will draft Brandon Wright and Orlando will pick up Aaron Aflalo...

Time flies like an arrow
Fruit flies like a banana

houstondukie
04-17-2007, 08:07 AM
They draft players to fill a need

Really? The Hawks desperately need a point guard. They passed on Chris Paul, Deron Williams, and Raymond Felton a couple years ago to pick Marvin Williams when they already had plenty of SF/PF depth with Al Harrington, Josh Childress, and Josh Smith. They most likely would be a playoff team by now had they picked any one of those three pg.

hondoheel
04-17-2007, 08:35 AM
You'll notice a lot of big numbers for guys who are usually benchwarmers around this time of year. Teams are looking at/trying to increase the trade value of their younger players. These numbers are put up against other teams' reserves, some of which are practically throwing games to get more lottery balls.

Not a knock on Shelden, in fact David Noel has been putting up nice numbers lately for the same reason.

DavidBenAkiva
04-17-2007, 09:09 AM
I guess the "throwing in the towel" strategy is true. That always happens in baseball in september, but it's not like the Landlord is having just one good game. It's been two weeks plus of excellent play. We'll just have to wait to see if he can get some more minutes and an offense that will allow him to shoot every once in a while next year. I remember the Cavs never running one play for Boozer in his first year (two years, really) and now look at him! I'm not saying Shelden will be that type of player, but a P.J. Brown/Othella Harrington type is certainly not out of the question.

My comment on Atlanta selecting Wright and Orlando going for Aflalo was meant as a cryptic joke. Of course the Hawks need a point gaurd, not another 3/4! And the Magic will spight J.J. by selecting a shooting gaurd...

JasonEvans
04-17-2007, 09:11 AM
You'll notice a lot of big numbers for guys who are usually benchwarmers around this time of year. Teams are looking at/trying to increase the trade value of their younger players. These numbers are put up against other teams' reserves, some of which are practically throwing games to get more lottery balls.

Not a knock on Shelden, in fact David Noel has been putting up nice numbers lately for the same reason.

I don't care who you are playing against, 16 points (on 6-9 shooting) and 17 rebounds is a bit night. And I might add that Shel put up back-to-back double-doubles against Cleveland and Washington-- two teams fighting for playoff positions who are most certainly not playing lesser players at this point in the season.

Bottom line-- Shel has played 26+ minutes in each of his last 7 games and played 30+ in 4 of the past 7. Prior to this run, he played more than 20 minutes only twice in 30 games and was under 10 minutes in 17 out of the past 30 games. That's ridiculous and stupid. Then again, we are talking about the Hawks-- the most ridiculous and stupid team in the NBA.

I mentioned to a few friends a week or so ago that I usually laugh at people who say, "I could coach better than that" or something like that when criticizing a head coach or GM. Ordinarily, it is laughable to think that any of us laymen have anywhere close to the knowledge or understanding to even intelligently have a conversation with a college or pro coach or GM...

...Ordinarily. In the case of Billy Knight and Mike Woodson I think we may have found the exception to the rule. I really, honestly think that many of the people I talk hoops with could do a better job GMing than Knight and I am not so sure that we couldn't coach circles around Woodson.

You want to hear about a draft mistake-- try to explain how the Hawks let Luol Deng slip past them a couple years ago to take Josh Childress instead. The whole world had Deng going #3 in the draft and he inexplicably slipped. I wass jumping up and down, thrilled that he had fallen into the Hawks lap. I mean, this was a draft pick even Atlanta could not mess up...

...or so I thought.

-Jason "I cannot explain why JJ is not playing either-- the Magic need shooters" Evans

kydevil
04-17-2007, 09:24 AM
I can tell you exactly why JJ isn't playing.... Brian Hill is most likely the worst coach in the NBA. :mad:

yancem
04-17-2007, 09:43 AM
Anyone know what the deal has been with Sheldon Williams? He started the year off fairly strongly then disapeared for months. Now all of the sudden he is not only getting good minutes but is putting up strong numbers. Was he hurt or did he do something to loose favor with the coach? I hadn't heard anything but have been pleasantly surprised by his recent surge.

JasonEvans
04-17-2007, 09:53 AM
Anyone know what the deal has been with Sheldon Williams? He started the year off fairly strongly then disapeared for months. Now all of the sudden he is not only getting good minutes but is putting up strong numbers. Was he hurt or did he do something to loose favor with the coach? I hadn't heard anything but have been pleasantly surprised by his recent surge.

SheldEn was not hurt, he was just out of favor with the IQ-deficient moron who runs the Atlanta Hawks.

Mike Woodson or Brian Hill-- who is worse? Now that is a real dilemma. At least Orlando was smart enougn to take Dwight Howard. If the Hawks had the #1 pick in 2004, I am confident they would have taken Josh Childress.

-Jason "threads about how sucky the Hawks are... ahhhh, I live for this stuff :eek: " Evans

CMS2478
04-17-2007, 09:59 AM
They are definetily worse than the Magic as far as an organiztion. How can a team continually be at the top of the draft every single year and not get any better. :confused:

I think they should take Joakim Noah this year he should turn the Hawks around. ;)

DukieUGA
04-17-2007, 10:14 AM
I was looking at the boxscores this morning and i was gonna post info about Shelden etc but this thread was already up. Yeah, Shel has had 3 double-doubles in a row and very nearly a fourth while shooting very well from the field and getting a very high % of O-boards. His season average is 5.3ppg and 5.3 rpg, that's pretty respectable on a team loaded with SF/PF depth. Also of note is that Dahntay Jones has also been on a hot streak lately scoring over 13 ppg the last 4 and shooting a good FG%. As with Deng, his FG% has improved alot this year by largely foregoing the 3ball, 5-11 on the year. His stock seems to be improving. In fact most Duke alumni in the NBA have been playing above their season averages in the last week, Boozer's been going nuts, Battier continues to be solid, Dunleavy's had some very nice games, Grant has also re-energized trying to get the Magic that 8th playoff seed. Duhon and Deng have played about at their season averages lately and have been key components to the Bulls aspirations for a high playoff seed. Brand and Maggette continue to be key parts of the Clippers' playoff hopes as well. JJ has not played much lately nor has Ewing ever since the Clips got Hart as another guard. Looks like Duke will have 9 alums in the playoffs: Brand, Maggette, Ewing, Redick, Hill, Boozer, Battier, Deng, Duhon and only Dunleavy, Jones and Williams missing the playoffs (Shav would miss it too if he were active). So 9 of 13 Duke alums in the NBA playoffs, or 69% of them. What's that you Duke haters have been saying for so long??? Dukies never amount to anything in the league??? How's that crow tasting right about now?

dcarp23
04-17-2007, 10:23 AM
Typically (and by typically I mean 99% of the time), I refrain from criticizing coaches because they do know a lot more about what they are doing than I.

But I felt that Woodson had opened the door to criticism per an article that appeared in the AJC back in January or February. Unfortunately, the article, which is on the dukeupdate.com archives, is no longer available through the link provided.

But the gist, as I remember, is that Shelden said he wasn't getting playing time because he wasn't fouling enough or fouling hard enough. Woodson had some quote about wanting Shelden to "send more messages" to opposing players and he wasn't doing it.

Perhaps if Pat Riley or Phil Jackson were saying the same thing, it might have some credence. But if a guy who has never won more than 30 games in a season is criticizing a guy for not fouling enough--you have to wonder if the dude has a clue what he's doing, and the article gave the impression that Shelden felt the same way.

Channing
04-17-2007, 10:26 AM
the hawks lose their pick this year if its not in the top 3, if they hold onto it htey lose it next year no matter what. I would almost rather lose that pick this year and keep our pick next year when it is going to be Point Guard Central. They already have the Pacers pick this year which is late lottery. If they do get the second pick i would hope they trade it somehow. I love Durant but the hawks already have Smith, Childress, Marvin Williams and Shelden along with Zaza battling for minutes. With the pacers pick I would love them to take Acie Law or Mike Conley if he comes out.

tbyers11
04-17-2007, 10:30 AM
Anyone know what the deal has been with Sheldon Williams? He started the year off fairly strongly then disapeared for months. Now all of the sudden he is not only getting good minutes but is putting up strong numbers. Was he hurt or did he do something to loose favor with the coach? I hadn't heard anything but have been pleasantly surprised by his recent surge.

Marvin Williams was hurt and didn't play the first 6 weeks of the season. I think that a bit to do with Shelden getting alot of early PT. However, even with Marvin back, Shelden still got good minutes for the rest of December and January. Starting right about Feb 1, Shelden's minutes just disappeared until the last 2 weeks.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?statsId=4133

I really don't understand some NBA teams rotations. As another poster stated, since the Hawks weren't close to sniffing the playoffs doesn't it make more sense to play your top rookie more minutes than Lorenzen Wright?

I moved from Atlanta last year after living there for six years for grad school. The Hawks never came close to the playoffs while I was there. In fact the Thrashers playoff game against NYR last week was the first playoff game in Philips Arena since it was built in 1999. That is sad.

SilkyJ
04-17-2007, 02:24 PM
I don't care who you are playing against, 16 points (on 6-9 shooting) and 17 rebounds is a bit night. And I might add that Shel put up back-to-back double-doubles against Cleveland and Washington-- two teams fighting for playoff positions who are most certainly not playing lesser players at this point in the season.

-Jason "I cannot explain why JJ is not playing either-- the Magic need shooters" Evans

Quick semi-correction- The Wiz are without caron butler and arenas, their two best players, so they sort of are playing worse players. But with Antawn Jamison back their frontcourt is 100%, so sheld was playing against a healthy and hardworking frontline (except for that bum Haywood).

Also important to note that sheld is playing the 5 the majority of the time and has to deal with 7 footers like haywood and Ilgauskas who are obviously taller but also bulkier.

Bottomline: Yes, Sheld has been playing well. I'm not going to "defend" the hawks coaching staff, but basically I would say they made a decision a while back that said if we want to make the playoffs we have to go with those who are the best RIGHT NOW, and Zaza was actually playing halfway decently 20-30 games into the season, so they sat Sheld in favor of Zaza. Also, they would like to play Sheld at the 4 alongside Zaza or someother center, but instead they decided they matched up better by playing a combo of Josh Childress/Marvin Williams/Josh Smith at the 3&4 spots because those guys are so tall, atheltic and versatile where as Sheld is your typical "banger."

Also, several people asked why sheld got minutes early, then they dwindled, then they came back. Well I just gave one point why they dwindled and why he got them back. Tbyers, above, also hits another big point as to why he got mins early.

Also, Kydevil is correct- brian hill is really bad

Bay Area Duke Fan
04-17-2007, 02:57 PM
I've always been a big fan of both guys and was thrilled that they each stayed to play four seasons at Duke.

Is it possible that, as NBA players, neither one is good enough now to get as much PT as we Duke fans would like to see ?

Patrick Yates
04-17-2007, 03:08 PM
I've always been a big fan of both guys and was thrilled that they each stayed to play four seasons at Duke.

Is it possible that, as NBA players, neither one is good enough now to get as much PT as we Duke fans would like to see ?

More likely is that it took Shel and JJ a little while to adjust. In college they were bigger, better, and as athletic (or moreso) than most of the comp. They were also the focus points of thier teams.

They were the best players in the ACC (at least top 5). Neither one is close to the best player on his pro team, nor are they athletically superior.

They are adjusting. Next year they will take off, and become really solid pros, essentially maxing out thier potential, which is all a pro team can ask for.

Patrick Yates

dcarp23
04-17-2007, 09:40 PM
Tonight, Shelden went for 21 and 10.

Jumbo
04-17-2007, 11:07 PM
In a late-season surge, Shelden Williams is averaging a little under 12 points and exactly 12 boards in around 35.5 minutes a game for the last 7 games. Why, WHY did the Hawks NOT play him the last MONTH before this. Did they honestly think the playoffs were in reach? Had Zaza Pachulia and Lorenzen Wright impressed the coaches at all? I'm beginning to understand why the Hawks and Magic have been bad for a while. They draft players to fill a need (low post rebounding and defense for Atlanta and perimeter scoring for the Magic) and then fail to properly utilize the players or even see if they were worth the pick in the first place. ARGGGHHH!!! I bet Atlanta will draft Brandon Wright and Orlando will pick up Aaron Aflalo...

Time flies like an arrow
Fruit flies like a banana

Shelden was called out by his coach earlier this year for not doing the "little things." Seeing as Shelden needs to make his living as a banger, that's a pretty bad indictment of his game. Hopefully, he's figured it out, and that's what has translated to his recent success. However, anyone can put up numbers in the NBA with enough playing time. Mike Wilks, for instance, is averaging 19.7 ppg in his last three games. Why? Earl Watson got hurt. Ray Allen and Luke Ridnour were already out. Someone has to score in Seattle's backcourt.

JBDuke
04-18-2007, 12:46 AM
I've always been a big fan of both guys and was thrilled that they each stayed to play four seasons at Duke.

Is it possible that, as NBA players, neither one is good enough now to get as much PT as we Duke fans would like to see ?

JJ's summer and fall injuries (back and foot) kept him from participating in summer ball and in preseason games. He wasn't back in game shape until December, at the earliest. As a result, he'd had almost no practice time to learn how to play well with his teammates. When Grant and Keyon Dooling were down with injuries around the All-Star break, JJ got his chance, did fairly well, and as a result, is part of the shortened playoff rotation that Coach Hill has gone to recently. He's not playing a lot, but generally 8-15 mins a game. Lately, his mins are down somewhat due to a sore quad.

Give JJ a chance to play this summer and next fall, and given that Grant is likely gone, I suspect he'll either be a starter next year, or the first guard off the bench.

JasonEvans
04-18-2007, 10:09 AM
Shelden was called out by his coach earlier this year for not doing the "little things." Seeing as Shelden needs to make his living as a banger, that's a pretty bad indictment of his game. Hopefully, he's figured it out, and that's what has translated to his recent success.

Yeah, but what if his coach is a total idiot? Is it an indictment if you get called out by a buffoon?

Jumbo, I know a guy who is verrry high up in the Atlanta Spirit organization (owns the Hawks and Thrashers)-- want me to see if you can get an interview to be the next coach of the Hawks? You'd be da bomb!!

And even if you sucked that the job, I doubt you would suck as much as Woodson.

-Jason "I hate the Hawks!" Evans

CMS2478
04-18-2007, 10:15 AM
Don't hate the game, Hate the MANAGEMENT!!! :D

JasonEvans
04-18-2007, 05:44 PM
Don't hate the game, Hate the MANAGEMENT!!! :D

I do... trust me, I do. In fact, I hate them mostly because I love the game so much.

It just hurts sometimes, ya know?

Is there anything more pathetic than a guy with great tickets to games who spends the whole time rooting for his team to lose so the coach and GM get replaced and they get a lottery pick?

-Jason "that guy is me!" Evans

CMS2478
04-19-2007, 12:07 PM
I do... trust me, I do. In fact, I hate them mostly because I love the game so much.

It just hurts sometimes, ya know?

Is there anything more pathetic than a guy with great tickets to games who spends the whole time rooting for his team to lose so the coach and GM get replaced and they get a lottery pick?

-Jason "that guy is me!" Evans

For your sake Jason, I hope they get a new GM and coach bc the way they have drafted the last few years.........I don't think another lottery pick will help much. :eek:

EagleDevil
04-19-2007, 01:50 PM
I moved from Atlanta last year after living there for six years for grad school. The Hawks never came close to the playoffs while I was there. In fact the Thrashers playoff game against NYR last week was the first playoff game in Philips Arena since it was built in 1999. That is sad.

For lack of a better place to post this, let me just say that this year's coverage of the Thrashers "playoff run" by the AJC and local TV news was the most tragically homer/small-time thing I've ever seen. It's bad enough for them to acknowledge that the NHL exists, but then the outright rooting and fluffy features about the "wacky" fans nearly made me upchuck.

On the opening day of the series, I believe the AJC had centerpiece stories on the A1, Sports and Life sections! Come on -- It's hockey, people!

Chris

phaedrus
04-19-2007, 02:41 PM
you mean a sport that other nations are good at besides americans, and has an international following? where the players have a combination of skill, athleticism, conditioning, and toughness unmatched by NFL, NBA or (especially) MLB players? whose history and tradition vastly outweighs that of football and basketball? doesn't have players make the police report every week? hasn't been utterly tainted by steroid use?

wherever you are, you're probably seeing more coverage of nascar than of hockey. yet you complain about the hockey coverage. really?

EagleDevil
04-20-2007, 11:05 AM
wherever you are, you're probably seeing more coverage of nascar than of hockey. yet you complain about the hockey coverage. really?

Actually, for whatever reason, the AJC is really good about downplaying NASCAR, in my view. The NC papers are much more problematic in that respect. ;)

Chris

greybeard
04-20-2007, 03:37 PM
Woodson has no offensive concepts, certainly none that play to an inside game like Sheldon can present. Woodson's approach to the game is bobby-ball, aka Bobby Knight. He has this concept of defensive intimidation that is the focus of everything that he wants his team to do> Bobby ball is collosally boring and oh so unworkable in the NBA, especially in the forward international style (soccer ball, the princeton, the triangle) direction the game is taking.

The only thing bobby-ball has produced in Atlanta is a slew of injuries. Woodson is an idiot for insisting on this hard foul business and for sitting Sheldon. Ownership, three main guys and a few others who comprise a group currently in control called "the Spirit" have kept BK and Woodson on because they do not have the money to do anything else or to run the team properly.

The good news, the Spirit are in all probability on their way out. They reneged on a buyout agreement after they precipitated a confrontation with the governing partner by insisting that the Hawks stupidly give up Diaw and two 1st round draft picks for J Johnson after they had bought the pot by making Johnson an offer that the Suns would never have matched. The governing partner, Steven Belkin, refused to allow the deal to go through, which he was entitled to under the ownernship agreement, but Stern weighed in on the side of the others because the Colangelos oh so wanted the deal to go through. Stern brokered a buyout deal and promised to "help" Belkin buy another franchise, but the Spirit never paid him because they don't have the dough.

If upheld on appeal, a decision should come down soon, Belkin will get to buy the Spirit out. If that happens, remember where you read it, look out for the Hawks. The guy, Belkin, is the real deal. In that case, Sheldon will flourish in Atlanta, which will not be playing bobby-ball.

PS For those of you who think I've posted a lot here about the LAX case, you ain't seen nothing, just ask my boyz on the ajc.

merry
04-20-2007, 06:51 PM
Are we going to resurrect the DBR NBA Mock Draft this year?

("we" meaning "you", Jason)