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ikiru36
05-29-2009, 11:44 AM
Draft Express has posted the height/weight/wingspan/reach measurements of many likely 1st rounders. It's posted here (http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Measurements-released-3236/).

Just at a quick glance a couple things jumped out at me.

* G, at a legit 6'4" without shoes is about as expected. Would be good if he were taller, but that is certainly the fully proper size of an NBA 2 and with the 6'10.5" wingspan and athleticism keeps him in the running as an only somewhat undersized 3 (which fits the rest of his skillset better until he further improves his left-hand and outside shot consistency).

* Ouch for Dejuan Blair, who measured at 6'5.25 w/o shoes. He's a stud but that's gotta hurt his stock a bit. Hard to use a top pick, anyways, on a 6'5 Power Forward who isn't named Charles Barkley. I nevertheless like Blair a lot for some Barkley-esque similarity, except I'm unaware of any sign of an outside game.

* Although Blair is 3 inches shorter than Hansborough, he's got a 1/2" more standing reach. That's pretty amazing. Wingspan is just a nutty stat and I really don't know whether height or reach is actually the more important stat. Since one plays basketball more with one's hands than the top of their head, perhaps reach?

* If so, as much as I'm impressed with Ty Lawson's skill and maturity, his wingspan of less than 6'1", combined with sub 6'0" height cannot be a positive for his defensive potential at the next level.

discuss...

roywhite
05-29-2009, 11:52 AM
Yeah, it's interesting to see some of these numbers; I usually go with the "in shoes" measurement since they play in shoes. Somewhat interesting to see that the "in shoes" measurement is anywhere from .75 inches to 1.5 inches more; different shoe styles and makes, I guess.

DeJuan Blair at 277#...that's a load.

Wish Gerald well; hope he gets into a good situation with good coaching.

weezie
05-29-2009, 12:07 PM
I almost feel sorry for Blair...thinking about how some team trainer will be running his sizeable derriere off this summer.:D

pfrduke
05-29-2009, 12:31 PM
* Ouch for Dejuan Blair, who measured at 6'5.25 w/o shoes. He's a stud but that's gotta hurt his stock a bit. Hard to use a top pick, anyways, on a 6'5 Power Forward who isn't named Charles Barkley. I nevertheless like Blair a lot for some Barkley-esque similarity, except I'm unaware of any sign of an outside game.

Makes it all the more amazing that he thoroughly dominated the 7'0"+ Thabeet during the season.

TheBrianZoubekExperience
05-29-2009, 02:04 PM
Hans, G and Ellington are all bigger than I expected by about an inch. I'm really surprised by Hans I thought he was going to measure about 6'7 in socks and have a smaller reach. Standing reach is about the most relevant stat for post defenders in terms of measurements and he's got a standing reach bigger than Griffin.

CDu
05-29-2009, 02:23 PM
Draft Express has posted the height/weight/wingspan/reach measurements of many likely 1st rounders. It's posted here (http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Measurements-released-3236/).

Just at a quick glance a couple things jumped out at me.

* G, at a legit 6'4" without shoes is about as expected. Would be good if he were taller, but that is certainly the fully proper size of an NBA 2 and with the 6'10.5" wingspan and athleticism keeps him in the running as an only somewhat undersized 3 (which fits the rest of his skillset better until he further improves his left-hand and outside shot consistency).

* Ouch for Dejuan Blair, who measured at 6'5.25 w/o shoes. He's a stud but that's gotta hurt his stock a bit. Hard to use a top pick, anyways, on a 6'5 Power Forward who isn't named Charles Barkley. I nevertheless like Blair a lot for some Barkley-esque similarity, except I'm unaware of any sign of an outside game.

* Although Blair is 3 inches shorter than Hansborough, he's got a 1/2" more standing reach. That's pretty amazing. Wingspan is just a nutty stat and I really don't know whether height or reach is actually the more important stat. Since one plays basketball more with one's hands than the top of their head, perhaps reach?

* If so, as much as I'm impressed with Ty Lawson's skill and maturity, his wingspan of less than 6'1", combined with sub 6'0" height cannot be a positive for his defensive potential at the next level.

discuss...

Unlike most years, nothing really jumps out as shocking. The only thing that caught my eye was Lawson's height. He's the shortest 5'11" guy I've ever seen.

Blair's bulk and reach will serve him fine despite his height. His problem will be that he can't shoot AT ALL. But he should be able to find a home uprooting people in the paint.

I was a tad surprised (negatively) in Griffin's measurements. I thought he was bigger. But sometimes one can look too deep into these things.

gw67
05-29-2009, 04:02 PM
The following Draft Express link is a more thorough listing of players and has a feature which allows you to get the data for previous years.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=2009&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=0&sort=

IMO, these measurements are interesting but the real key is always does the youngster have the skill set and the desire to play the 24-second game.

As one who coached baseball for many years, I am convinced that baseball scouts rely way too much on the size of the player and the radar gun. Many great pitchers wouldn't even get a whiff from the scouts nowadays. As a result, we have a bunch of major league pitchers who have live arms but can't pitch worth a lick. [just a rant]

gw67

sagegrouse
05-29-2009, 05:02 PM
What surprised me was that Gerald was a legit 215 pounds. Wow! That's only 20 pounds less than Hansbrough, who is 4+ inches taller. No need to add muscle, and more strength will come with maturity.

sagegrouse

SilkyJ
05-31-2009, 11:09 AM
What surprised me was that Gerald was a legit 215 pounds. Wow! That's only 20 pounds less than Hansbrough, who is 4+ inches taller. No need to add muscle, and more strength will come with maturity.

sagegrouse

I was even more surprised by his wingspan. 6'4 with a 6'10 wingspan.

Anyone have an idea when they are releasing the athletic data, i.e. vertical, lane agility, etc? The math on Gerald's vertical plus his reach should be pretty interesting. I wonder how far he can theoretically reach...more than halfway up the backboard? Not a useful measure, but just cool to think about

JimBD
05-31-2009, 01:04 PM
Height is such a stupid measurement. You don't shoot the ball or block a shot with your neck and head. The more meaningful measurement is how high you can "reach" in bare feet.

CDu
05-31-2009, 01:19 PM
Height is such a stupid measurement. You don't shoot the ball or block a shot with your neck and head. The more meaningful measurement is how high you can "reach" in bare feet.

Which is why they also measure that.

SMO
05-31-2009, 03:07 PM
Luke Harongody sure measured up shorter than I expected! That was the biggest surprise for me.

Wheat/"/"/"
05-31-2009, 05:09 PM
When they find a way to measure court vision, timing and heart, then they will have something to go by in evaluating a player.

JimBD
05-31-2009, 09:41 PM
Which is why they also measure that.

Yes, I know, but you rarely see the more relevant measurement published.

SMO
06-01-2009, 08:57 AM
When they find a way to measure court vision, timing and heart, then they will have something to go by in evaluating a player.

Maybe they can call the last one the "Battier metric".

grossbus
06-01-2009, 01:59 PM
"Maybe they can call the last one the "Battier metric"."

works for me!!

superdave
06-02-2009, 10:02 AM
Scouts have to be looking at Hansborough and thinking "Hmmm 6'8.25''....that's about 6'6.5" if you subtract all that extra neck."

FireOgilvie
06-03-2009, 02:50 AM
Pre-draft workout information for all categories has now become available on DraftExpress.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/measurements.php?year=2009&sort2=DESC&draft=&pos=&sort=16

Henderson had the lowest body fat of anyone, but had surprisingly weak (to me) vertical jump measurements. Wayne Ellington actually fared better in almost every category over Henderson (max vert, agility, and bench - not sprint).

The workouts confirmed that Blake Griffin is both very strong and a great leaper. He also finished ahead of Henderson (and Ty Lawson, Ellington, Green, and Hansbrough) in the agility section. Henderson finished behind all of the UNC players except Danny Green.

Lawson was 6th in the sprint (Toney Douglas destroyed everyone), and Henderson was only 0.02 seconds behind him. 6'7" Damion James was 2nd.

As noted in the article on the front page, Greivis Vasquez had a terrible showing at the combine, finishing near last in almost everything.

UrinalCake
06-03-2009, 07:02 AM
Does anyone know how they measure agility? Something like a shuttle-run? I wonder how the results would differ if they timed them while dribbling a ball...

dukelifer
06-03-2009, 08:20 AM
Pre-draft workout information for all categories has now become available on DraftExpress.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/measurements.php?year=2009&sort2=DESC&draft=&pos=&sort=16

Henderson had the lowest body fat of anyone, but had surprisingly weak (to me) vertical jump measurements. Wayne Ellington actually fared better in almost every category over Henderson (max vert, agility, and bench - not sprint).

The workouts confirmed that Blake Griffin is both very strong and a great leaper. He also finished ahead of Henderson (and Ty Lawson, Ellington, Green, and Hansbrough) in the agility section. Henderson finished behind all of the UNC players except Danny Green.

Lawson was 6th in the sprint (Toney Douglas destroyed everyone), and Henderson was only 0.02 seconds behind him. 6'7" Damion James was 2nd.

As noted in the article on the front page, Greivis Vasquez had a terrible showing at the combine, finishing near last in almost everything.

Henderson's max vert is very surprising. But that said- his vert numbers were identical to Dwayne Wade's as a rookie and surprisingly Chris Duhon's but well below DeMarcs and Dahntay's . Ellington definitely helped himself with those numbers although they seemed to rarely translate to what he did in games-odd.

Misunderestimated
06-03-2009, 08:33 AM
Isn't the "Bench" category how many times the player can bench press 185 lbs? I was a little suprised to see Steph Curry bench 10 times, while G only did 8?? Am I reading this correctly?

sagegrouse
06-03-2009, 10:00 AM
Henderson's max vert is very surprising. But that said- his vert numbers were identical to Dwayne Wade's as a rookie and surprisingly Chris Duhon's but well below DeMarcs and Dahntay's . Ellington definitely helped himself with those numbers although they seemed to rarely translate to what he did in games-odd.

While Gerald's running vertical of 35.0 was a bit surprising on the low side, his standing vertical of 31.5 was among the best. Looks like he had some problems with his steps on the running vertical. I suspect he will jump out of the gym in the team workouts.


sagegrouse

CDu
06-03-2009, 10:09 AM
Does anyone know how they measure agility? Something like a shuttle-run? I wonder how the results would differ if they timed them while dribbling a ball...

Agility is similar to the shuttle run, but involves moving around the painted area. I can't remember the specifics, but it is similar but not identical to the shuttle run.

CDu
06-03-2009, 10:11 AM
Isn't the "Bench" category how many times the player can bench press 185 lbs? I was a little suprised to see Steph Curry bench 10 times, while G only did 8?? Am I reading this correctly?

That is what the bench is. Players with longer arms are at a disadvantage on the bench. Henderson has long arms, while Curry has short arms. But yes, it is still surprising that Henderson had a lower number than Curry.

That said, bench is not as big a deal for guards, as that's not a motion that is commonly necessary for them. But it can be a bit of a proxy toward finishing strength.

sagegrouse
06-03-2009, 10:37 AM
That is what the bench is. Players with longer arms are at a disadvantage on the bench. Henderson has long arms, while Curry has short arms. But yes, it is still surprising that Henderson had a lower number than Curry.

That said, bench is not as big a deal for guards, as that's not a motion that is commonly necessary for them. But it can be a bit of a proxy toward finishing strength.

As an old guy with lots of wear and tear, I can testify that any kind of tweak or injury to the shoulder is devastating to bench press reps -- no matter how temporary and insignificant the injury. So a player that does poorly should not automatically he relegated to the weakling category, 190 or 290 pound division.

OTOH, Greivis Vasquez clearly earned his 190-lb. weakling rating with only one bench press, inasmuch as he was also nearly last in both vertical jumping and running speed. In fact, it might be interesting to see how much Greivis improves, if he goes back to UMd and enters the draft next year, as I hope he does. (Hey! I hate the Terps, but I enjoy watching Greivis's full court game.) Several hours a week in the weight room can help all these categories, even speed.

sagegrouse

Rudy
06-03-2009, 10:56 AM
Agility is similar to the shuttle run, but involves moving around the painted area. I can't remember the specifics, but it is similar but not identical to the shuttle run.

I watched some of this on t.v. The drill is set up in a square maybe 15 feet on each side. The player starts from one corner and moves around the square, facing one direction the whole time. So, the first leg is a shuffle to his right, then straight ahead, then shuffle to his left, then running backwards. The circuit is timed.

Bluedog
06-03-2009, 11:05 AM
That is what the bench is. Players with longer arms are at a disadvantage on the bench. Henderson has long arms, while Curry has short arms. But yes, it is still surprising that Henderson had a lower number than Curry.

That said, bench is not as big a deal for guards, as that's not a motion that is commonly necessary for them. But it can be a bit of a proxy toward finishing strength.

Let's all remember that Kevin Durant got ZERO on the bench press. He seems to be doing all right at the SF spot in the NBA. ;) To me, the bench press numbers are pretty meaningless. Durant, overall, was ranked 78th out of 80 at the Orlando camp his year. He also finished the agility in 12.33, which would have been the WORST of this year's numbers by a whole .1 sec. There are just too many things that translate to basketball that you can't measure with a speed/strength test.

CDu
06-03-2009, 11:45 AM
I watched some of this on t.v. The drill is set up in a square maybe 15 feet on each side. The player starts from one corner and moves around the square, facing one direction the whole time. So, the first leg is a shuffle to his right, then straight ahead, then shuffle to his left, then running backwards. The circuit is timed.

Yeah, that's what I was picturing. For some reason, I thought it was around the painted area (which wouldn't be terribly different from a 15x15 square). But yeah, it involves running/shuffling sideways and running forward and backward.

SilkyJ
06-03-2009, 12:54 PM
Pre-draft workout information for all categories has now become available on DraftExpress.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/measurements.php?year=2009&sort2=DESC&draft=&pos=&sort=16

Henderson had the lowest body fat of anyone, but had surprisingly weak (to me) vertical jump measurements. Wayne Ellington actually fared better in almost every category over Henderson (max vert, agility, and bench - not sprint).

The workouts confirmed that Blake Griffin is both very strong and a great leaper. He also finished ahead of Henderson (and Ty Lawson, Ellington, Green, and Hansbrough) in the agility section. Henderson finished behind all of the UNC players except Danny Green.

Lawson was 6th in the sprint (Toney Douglas destroyed everyone), and Henderson was only 0.02 seconds behind him. 6'7" Damion James was 2nd.

As noted in the article on the front page, Greivis Vasquez had a terrible showing at the combine, finishing near last in almost everything.

Something whacky is going on. We all know G can jump higher than that, closer to 40 inches, maybe more. And we all know Lawson is much faster than Henderson...so I guess we can't use these for much more than a general indicator....

Wheat/"/"/"
06-03-2009, 01:09 PM
Didn't want you guys to miss this...:)

From NBA.com: (http://www.nba.com/2009/playoffs2009/06/01/chicago.combine.givony/index.html)
"Tyler Hansbrough is clearly a man on a mission. Every time he touches the ball, the entire gym knows, as he takes out all of his frustrations on the rim. He's in great shape, jumping better than many of his counterparts, and also measuring out taller than most people expect him to, coming up with almost identical figures to that of Blake Griffin. You can sense that executives in the gym are starting to warm up to him more and more."

Shammrog
06-03-2009, 01:58 PM
You can sense that executives in the gym are starting to warm up to him more and more."

As well they should. Much as I hate to admit it. :p

calltheobvious
06-03-2009, 02:22 PM
Didn't want you guys to miss this...:)

From NBA.com: (http://www.nba.com/2009/playoffs2009/06/01/chicago.combine.givony/index.html)
"Tyler Hansbrough is clearly a man on a mission. Every time he touches the ball, the entire gym knows, as he takes out all of his frustrations on the rim. He's in great shape, jumping better than many of his counterparts, and also measuring out taller than most people expect him to, coming up with almost identical figures to that of Blake Griffin. You can sense that executives in the gym are starting to warm up to him more and more."

I'm not hating on Hans, but please. Come. On.

All this does is underscore the complete absurdity of all of these metrics. Anyone who mentions Hansbrough and Griffin in the same sentence because their non-competition measurables are similar is just silly.

On this issue, I don't think anyone can improve on Einstein:

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."

slower
06-03-2009, 02:47 PM
I'm not hating on Hans, but please. Come. On.

All this does is underscore the complete absurdity of all of these metrics. Anyone who mentions Hansbrough and Griffin in the same sentence because their non-competition measurables are similar is just silly.

On this issue, I don't think anyone can improve on Einstein:

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."

What else would you expect from the Tarhole homers on the board? It's a testament to the relative civility of DBR that they are allowed to come on and run the whole passive/aggressive type routine with their posts. If a true Duke fan tried the same thing on IC, what do you think would happen?

Seriously, they don't come in here throwing metaphorical punches, but it's a constant process of small irritations.

Truth
06-03-2009, 03:03 PM
What else would you expect from the Tarhole homers on the board? It's a testament to the relative civility of DBR that they are allowed to come on and run the whole passive/aggressive type routine with their posts. If a true Duke fan tried the same thing on IC, what do you think would happen?

Seriously, they don't come in here throwing metaphorical punches, but it's a constant process of small irritations.

The acceptance of thoughtful contributions from non-Duke fans is part of what makes this board great. I, for one, do not consider Wheat's postings "small irritations," and his last post in particular serves nothing more than pointing out scouts' reactions to Hansborough's draft workouts; in other words, it was completely on target for the thread.

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer...

UrinalCake
06-03-2009, 03:10 PM
I enjoy reading posts from the Carolina guys, and don't consider Wheat's post to be any more biased than our discussions in defense of G's numbers.

With regards to the bench press, I could see it being an indicator of overall strength, and associated with that would be injury tolerance. When I read about Durant not getting any reps two years ago my first thought was that he was unlikely to make it through an entire season of pounding in the NBA. Of course, I was wrong about that... overall I think the bench press is kind of like the SAT. It's one indicator, but is often overemphasized and should not be used as the only point of reference.

Shammrog
06-03-2009, 03:29 PM
I'm not hating on Hans, but please. Come. On.

All this does is underscore the complete absurdity of all of these metrics. Anyone who mentions Hansbrough and Griffin in the same sentence because their non-competition measurables are similar is just silly.

On this issue, I don't think anyone can improve on Einstein:

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."

I don't think any SANE person is putting Hans and Griffin in the same sentence. Granted, this excludes many Carolina fans, but not Wheat. :)

But, Hans both measured and worked out much better than expected. He was one HELL of a player for the Evil Empire for 4 years, and may well getting drafted a lot higher than many would have expected.

NSDukeFan
06-03-2009, 03:31 PM
What else would you expect from the Tarhole homers on the board? It's a testament to the relative civility of DBR that they are allowed to come on and run the whole passive/aggressive type routine with their posts. If a true Duke fan tried the same thing on IC, what do you think would happen?

Seriously, they don't come in here throwing metaphorical punches, but it's a constant process of small irritations.

Count me among those that enjoy having Wheat's comments posted. They are usually very thoughtful and well articulated. But in this case, it wasn't even his comments and just a quote from scouts. I am certainly not a Hansbrough fan, but I just can't figure how someone with his success at the college level will not have at least a productive pro career.

sagegrouse
06-03-2009, 03:45 PM
Count me among those that enjoy having Wheat's comments posted. They are usually very thoughtful and well articulated. But in this case, it wasn't even his comments and just a quote from scouts. I am certainly not a Hansbrough fan, but I just can't figure how someone with his success at the college level will not have at least a productive pro career.

I think Hansbrough will play NBA hoops for a long time. He's reasonably strong; he is developing an outside shot; he is not afraid to bang; and his motor never quits.

sagegrouse

dukelifer
06-03-2009, 04:01 PM
Count me among those that enjoy having Wheat's comments posted. They are usually very thoughtful and well articulated. But in this case, it wasn't even his comments and just a quote from scouts. I am certainly not a Hansbrough fan, but I just can't figure how someone with his success at the college level will not have at least a productive pro career.

I have no doubt Hansbrough will be an excellent pro with a long career. I am not sure he will ever be the man in the NBA- but he could deliver very solid numbers from day 1. He is just a machine and when he gets fouled he makes his throws (We all know he has had enough practice at that). He is also very strong. I think the team that does not draft Hansbrough will be like the team that did not draft Boozer- they will regret it. I do not think he will be Boozer but he will be a significant player because he will do exactly what he is asked to do.

calltheobvious
06-03-2009, 04:03 PM
What else would you expect from the Tarhole homers on the board? It's a testament to the relative civility of DBR that they are allowed to come on and run the whole passive/aggressive type routine with their posts. If a true Duke fan tried the same thing on IC, what do you think would happen?

Seriously, they don't come in here throwing metaphorical punches, but it's a constant process of small irritations.

Whoah, there, cowboy. Wheat is one of the most thoughtful posters on the boards here, his light blue roots notwithstanding.

I know that he was just having a little fun with us by posting that quote. My exasperation was not with him, but with the model of draft analytics in basketball and football (and, blessedly, to a lesser extent over the last decade in baseball).

slower
06-03-2009, 04:32 PM
Whoah, there, cowboy. Wheat is one of the most thoughtful posters on the boards here, his light blue roots notwithstanding.

I know that he was just having a little fun with us by posting that quote. My exasperation was not with him, but with the model of draft analytics in basketball and football (and, blessedly, to a lesser extent over the last decade in baseball).


Guess I'm just overly sensitive to the occasional "subtle" digs. No offense intended, Wheat.

Bygones.

sagegrouse
06-03-2009, 04:37 PM
Guess I'm just overly sensitive to the occasional "subtle" digs. No offense intended, Wheat.

Bygones.

I am sure you will find Wheat to be a quite reasonable fellow if you meet him in person. Say, as a guide on a tarpon fishing trip.

sagegrouse

shoutingncu
06-03-2009, 04:54 PM
If a true Duke fan tried the same thing on IC, what do you think would happen?

DBR is not the same as IC, which is likely why you have so many of us lurkers (not that Wheat is merely a lurker, but you get my point).

From what I understand, Devil's Den is more inline with IC, and, I would assume, an off-season transfer away from being Catspause (okay, that may have been intended as a mild dig).

Wheat/"/"/"
06-04-2009, 11:06 AM
Guess I'm just overly sensitive to the occasional "subtle" digs. No offense intended, Wheat.

Bygones.

No problem...it was a subtle dig. :)

...and that's why I'm here and not IC. Subtle digs back and forth are interesting, fun and define the rivalry, not the juvinile crap on the other boards.

brevity
06-04-2009, 01:25 PM
Didn't want you guys to miss this...:)

From NBA.com: (http://www.nba.com/2009/playoffs2009/06/01/chicago.combine.givony/index.html)
"Tyler Hansbrough is clearly a man on a mission. Every time he touches the ball, the entire gym knows, as he takes out all of his frustrations on the rim. He's in great shape, jumping better than many of his counterparts, and also measuring out taller than most people expect him to, coming up with almost identical figures to that of Blake Griffin. You can sense that executives in the gym are starting to warm up to him more and more."

The statement is comparing vital stats, which is not the same as comparing levels of talent. It's like saying they had the same blood pressure measures, or personal best score at Scrabble. It's just a number they have in common.

No passive/aggressive behavior here. This post is completely acceptable.