Gerald Henderson enters the draft, signs with agent

[Jumbo]

Duke released its official announcement (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=3727878). It says he has not yet hired an agent, although I think that's a mere formality -- unless something drastic happens (injury, forgetting how to dribble), it doesn't seem Gerald will return, so let's not spend the next seven weeks hoping for some unlikely scenario. I wish Gerald nothing but the best of luck, and hope everyone can discuss this in a civil, rational manner.

[geraldsneighbor]

It is weird that he didn't have a press conference.

[jv001]

Gerald as I know this was a life long dream. I wish you well and you will always be one of my favorite Duke players. Thanks for your 3 years in Duke Blue. Go Gerald and Go Duke!

[dukebsbll14]

It is weird that he didn't have a press conference.

Best of luck G. Wish he was coming back, but I support him 100%.

But G,
feel free to come back to school anytime you want!

Good luck G!

[gadzooks]

Darnit. :( Best of luck, G.

[RelativeWays]

I see no reason to be bitter about G's decision, he played great for us and I'll follow his career in the pros for sure. I won't lie and say I'm not disappointed at next years team potential had G stayed, but there are no guarantees we'll win it all with him or that we can't without (though 2011 looks like a better bet). Best of luck to Hendo. I hope he gets picked by a team that can actually use him, versus the best available scenario.

[_Gary]

Good luck, Gerald. Tear 'em up at the next level.

[geraldsneighbor]

While its sad we weren't able to have you for four years, the three you spent here we enjoyed greatly. It's been wild watching you go from high school to the kid nobody could stop in college. I know this is the right decision for you. Best of luck G. Take it easy on the Sixers for me!

[arnie]

Hopefully, G will be a long time contributor in the NBA.

I think the success of next year's team hinge on EW and Nolan. If they can step into big-time offensive roles and improve on defense, we should be better than last year. If not, I suspect we will struggle to beat the top tier teams.

I've never felt that Walls would ever enroll at Duke, but if I'm wrong, then we have a lot of guns - especially if MP II can hold down the middle.

[geraldsneighbor]

Hopefully, G will be a long time contributor in the NBA.

I think the success of next year's team hinge on EW and Nolan. If they can step into big-time offensive roles and improve on defense, we should be better than last year. If not, I suspect we will struggle to beat the top tier teams.

I've never felt that Walls would ever enroll at Duke, but if I'm wrong, then we have a lot of guns - especially if MP II can hold down the middle.

Absolutely. Elliot and Nolan I think will have break out seasons. EW gets that mid range game and suddenly he is becoming a left handed G.

[CDu]

Hopefully, G will be a long time contributor in the NBA.

I think the success of next year's team hinge on EW and Nolan. If they can step into big-time offensive roles and improve on defense, we should be better than last year. If not, I suspect we will struggle to beat the top tier teams.

I've never felt that Walls would ever enroll at Duke, but if I'm wrong, then we have a lot of guns - especially if MP II can hold down the middle.

Best of luck to Henderson. It's hard to begrudge anyone for wanting to pursue their dream. I'd certainly have loved to see him for one more year, but I would have been shocked if he returned. His stock wasn't likely to get higher and he's picked in the first round with guaranteed money. People who complain that he should stay are simply being selfish (wanting him to stay for their viewing pleasure) or perhaps misguided (thinking they know what's best for him).

As for next year, we could really use another guard (especially a PG). We're going to be very thin in the backcourt, and I agree that Smith and Williams are going to need to step up big-time next year. It would be really helpful to add someone, if for no other reason than to have SOME backcourt depth.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

Good luck, G. You were so much fun to watch and cheer for. I can't wait to see you posterizing NBA players next season. Thanks for all the memories. :)

[Jumbo]

Absolutely. Elliot and Nolan I think will have break out seasons. EW gets that mid range game and suddenly he is becoming a left handed G.

If I have to hear the term "left-handed G" for the next six-plus months, well ... I won't be happy. G wasn't even "G" until January. Remember how he started the season? And G still has holes in his game that he will work to improve. The point is that Elliot was a very nice role player at the end of the year, and hopefully will progress over the summer. But he will not be G, nor does he have to be. That kind of work takes time, and if Elliot can tighten his ball-handling a bit, learn to go right a little better and be able to knock down open jumpers, that would be major imporvement. Expecting more is just silly, IMHO.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

If Coach K is 100 percent behind it, so am I. GO G GO (but stay if you happen to change your mind) :D

GO DUKE!

[VaDukie]

I think once G really turned it on (the Georgetown game comes to mind) we all knew this day would come. It's been a pleasure watching him and I can't wait to see what he does at the next level.

[geraldsneighbor]

If I have to hear the term "left-handed G" for the next six-plus months, well ... I won't be happy. G wasn't even "G" until January. Remember how he started the season? And G still has holes in his game that he will work to improve. The point is that Elliot was a very nice role player at the end of the year, and hopefully will progress over the summer. But he will not be G, nor does he have to be. That kind of work takes time, and if Elliot can tighten his ball-handling a bit, learn to go right a little better and be able to knock down open jumpers, that would be major imporvement. Expecting more is just silly, IMHO.

First of all, I wasn't trying to imply he would be a Third team All-america. I'm not expecting EW to average 16 and 5. I said earlier a good season for EW will be 10 ppg. The fact is, there will be more shots to go around now, and we need him to step up. My basic point is...they both drive. They both are 6'4''. G improved his mid-range game later. It is said EW is as athletic as G also. Obviously EW is still developing, something G was doing as well his sophomore year and into this year. I don't know what was so outlandish of a comparison like that.

[BlueintheFace]

I really want G to do well on the next level, but this news truly makes me think of what could have been.

I have a firm belief that top programs rise and fall in 2-4 year waves. Before each season a fan base should be able to identify what place in the wave they are by the personnel they have. "A sweet sixteen team"... "A NCAA tourney team"... etc..

Of course, teams can get hot and go on runs in March or fall flat around tournament time and underachieve, but I think that top tier teams only get championship caliber teams every 2-4 years in the modern world of basketball. When a top tier team wins a championship, their recruiting gets better and the cycle can easily shorten to 2-3 years.

Kansas has a great talent cycle right now and is probably on the 2-3 year track. Carolina just finished the peak of their 4 year track, but looks to get a jump off of it and move in to a 2-3 year cycle. Duke just finished the third year of a four-year cycle (2006 was Duke's last crest- we underachieved unfortunately... which led to the "fall of Duke" talk)

Next year was going to be a Peak for Duke (best chance for a championship since 2006). However there are a number of things that can interrupt the cycles (which is why it is so hard to be consistently great). Those things include: coaching changes (setback), Great Players leaving early (setback), landing game-changing recruits (accelerating process), a recruit failing to improve, and a number of other things...

Duke's potential championship peak might have just been cancelled. Of course, nothing is set in stone. Wall would change things, a couple of players could develop beyond expectations, but my guess is that Henderson leaving signals the cancellation of a championship-caliber peak in the program. That is just how it works in modern college basketball (IMO of course).

I look forward to having a championship caliber team in 2013 or 2014. Whether or not we have one before then isn't impossible, but chances of that happening seem to have just taken a big hit.

Again, I have no bitterness reserved for G. I was happy to have him while he was here. This is just basketball today. Hope you have a great NBA career G!!

[RockyMtDevil]

I believe we can have a Final Four/Championship contender next Season with a commitment from either Wall or Bledsoe. Without, we are crazy thin in the backcourt. Woefully thin to be exact. And in fact, I question the recruitment process in a big way. G going pro shouldn't have caught anyone by surprise. The fact that we only have Ewill, Smith and Sheyer for guards at Duke is a glaring mis-management of the program. Seriously, of all the kids who play hoops we sign 3 to play at Duke, you are kidding me right? I don't blame G for that. Placing all our bets on a spring commitment from two guards that haven't academically cleared is a sign of desperation.

However, K and staff could be totally exonerated by landing Wall...I don't know that any of us expect that though.

[roywhite]

I'd be interested to hear from Gerald more directly, and maybe we will as the draft approaches.

What was his thinking? Was it a close call? Will he consider pulling out if his projected draft position is not what he expected?

Good luck, Gerald; really enjoyed watching you.

[delfrio]

Maybe this has been posted somewhere else, but where is G projected to go in the draft (#, not team)?

[Son of Jarhead]

The coaches & players support him... so should we.

Everyone was all smiles last night at the banquet, & surely they knew already. WRAL's Jay Jennings suggested last night (11pm news) that the banquet would have been a good time to anounce, but I thought it was classy that he waited until after the banquet so as to let the seniors have their moment. I really enjoyed how much this team really liked playing/being together. Sure it would be great to have G back next year, but we'll be fine... K will figure it out. G, thanks for 3 fun years, best wishes in the League.

Go Duke!

[JasonEvans]

Folks,

Lets try to clean up the conversation. We do not need a debate about who is or is not a real Duke fan any more than we need a debate about whether we are disappointed in Henderson's decision.

Gerald has every right to enter the draft and almost all kids in his position make the exact same choice as he did. Coach K thinks it was a good move and is wishing him well. We should too.

The DBR does not want an argument here. Please keep that in mind.

-Jason "sorry to see him go, but I am sure Henderson will be a success at the next level. I'll be rooting for him" Evans

[superdave]

I have seen Henderson going as high as 8 on Nbadraftexpress and ranked as low as 25 on Espn Insider. I'm assuming he will wind up someplace in between.

With a handful of lottery guys staying in college, Warren, Aminu, that helps as well. I hope G can have some good workouts and wind up on a team that isnt a bottom feeder! At this point, it's just too early to tell though.

[dukefanSD]

Good Luck to Gerald in the draft. I hope he gets taken before some of those tarheels.:) I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just curious, but when coaches and players say they support someones decision to leave early, well would they say anything else? Especially with a group of people as classy as Duke basketball? I don't think any of them would ever publically admit it if they thought someone was making a bad decision or were sore about it. I'm not saying that's happening here, I just take public statements of support with a little grain of salt.

Anyway, thank you G for all the effort, hard work and highlight reel dunks.

[moonpie23]

best of luck man, and we all need to remember, no matter what, it will always be

"STARTING AT GUARD, FROM DUKE UNIVERSITY, GERALD HENDERSON...HENDERSON.......HENDERSON"

thanks man.....for all the thrills...

[ricks68]

Good luck and best wishes to you, and every success in all your future endeavors. You certainly have my respect and admiration. And thanks for making Duke Basketball so much more exciting to watch the past three years!:)

ricks

[dukelifer]

Part of the allure of playing at Duke and getting all that exposure and excellent tutelage on how to play the game of basketball and life is being in a position to live the dream and play in the NBA. Without this- without Duke players doing well at the next level in terms of draft position and actual play- the chance of getting that next great player is very much diminished. So you have to give something to get something. The NBA is place where the best players play and for a sport where you have 10 or so years to play at that level- you should go when you are ready. G is ready. He is not a perfect player- but he has shown growth in less than a year and he has definitely not hit his ceiling. This is part of the reason we are all a bit sad from the news because we could have witnessed that growth in Cameron rather than in some NBA city. One of the problems with the NBA is that most who follow college ball are not a fan of the next level. So in a sense, except for scanning an occasional boxscore, many may not ever see G again- unless he gets so famous- he gets to hock some soap on TV. So there is sadness as with all players when they leave. But we get over it. Next year we will all be talking about the growth of E-Will and the new found ball handling ability of Smith and marveling at the 3 point shooting of Kelly. We should be seeing the emergence of Singler as a true star and of course we all know that he too may decide to leave after next season. Has Duke's NCAA hopes been crushed by G's decision- probably not- this will be an experienced team ad perhaps the new guys will be special. But they are not a lock and for some of us- it will make the season more interesting. I am looking forward to next season- particularly to see how the new guys fit in and how Singler grows as as player. Good luck to G. He was the most exciting player in the ACC this past year and the next level is all about entertainment.

[geraldsneighbor]

I think it is completely fair to feel disappointed G is leaving. IMO it is on the natural reaction. I'm sure it wasn't an easy decision for him either and I think he probably wrestled with this decision for a little while. Bottom line is, as hard as this is to say, he is making the smart move. I felt the whole season he would come back. His silence however after the loss to Villanova spoke a lot to him thinking he was going to put deep thought into leaving.

I agree with roywhite. I would like to hear what elements G had go in to this decision. I wish him nothing but the best because without him this year, does everyone realize this team would have been about a 8 or 9 win team in the ACC.

Think about how Ohio State fans feel. Daquan Cook left after his freshman year and went 20th. Kosta Koufus left to go mid first round. NOW, BJ Mullens left and he only averaged 20 minutes a game and 8 points. G gave us a lot more than you care to admit. To sit here and say that G leaving is going to set the broken back is insane. Look at the guys we have that are ready to step up. Not to mention if we land a PG the things that we would be capable of. This isn't the end guys. We've only just begun.

[sivartrenrag]

Way to go, G! Best of luck!

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Best of success to G on his pro career. If the NBA is talking lockout after next season while negotiating a new collective bargaining agreement, going this year is the only thing that makes sense for him - get a year of big money before having to sit out. For purely selfish reasons I wish he would stay at Duke for his senior year, but I would have advised him to go this year based on the above supposition.

[njpduke]

I'd be disappointed if I thought G wasn't ready, or if I thought it was a bad decision. But he is ready. He should be a lottery pick. It would be foolish for him not to leave now, and anyone thinking otherwise is deluding him/herself. I, for one, am really excited to see what he can do in the league. Good luck G!

[dubayuw]

I am gonna miss G, he was really fun to watch in a Duke uniform. But i wish him the best of luck of course, he will be great in the NBA.

[bjornolf]

Thanks for three great years, man. If you have any doubts, though, why not make it four? ;)

[quickgtp]

Good luck G. Sorry to see you go but hey, you gotta pursue your dream!

As for next years team; if we don't land Wall or Bledsoe we may have a tough year according to Duke "standards."

[sagegrouse]

The problem as I (facetiously) see it for Gerald is that after three years his Duke highlight reel was full -- full of an amazing assortment of drives, dunks and acrobatic shots, plus an other wordly collision ;) in Chapel Hill his freshman year. Seriously, he has shown a lot at Duke and in the college game. Understandably, he wants to see if he can do the same in the NBA.

If he and his family decide it's time to move on, so be it.

Thanks,

Gary

[miramar]

Make us proud!

[houstondukie]

I really want G to do well on the next level, but this news truly makes me think of what could have been.

I have a firm belief that top programs rise and fall in 2-4 year waves. Before each season a fan base should be able to identify what place in the wave they are by the personnel they have. "A sweet sixteen team"... "A NCAA tourney team"... etc..

Of course, teams can get hot and go on runs in March or fall flat around tournament time and underachieve, but I think that top tier teams only get championship caliber teams every 2-4 years in the modern world of basketball. When a top tier team wins a championship, their recruiting gets better and the cycle can easily shorten to 2-3 years.

Kansas has a great talent cycle right now and is probably on the 2-3 year track. Carolina just finished the peak of their 4 year track, but looks to get a jump off of it and move in to a 2-3 year cycle. Duke just finished the third year of a four-year cycle (2006 was Duke's last crest- we underachieved unfortunately... which led to the "fall of Duke" talk)

Next year was going to be a Peak for Duke (best chance for a championship since 2006). However there are a number of things that can interrupt the cycles (which is why it is so hard to be consistently great). Those things include: coaching changes (setback), Great Players leaving early (setback), landing game-changing recruits (accelerating process), a recruit failing to improve, and a number of other things...

Duke's potential championship peak might have just been cancelled. Of course, nothing is set in stone. Wall would change things, a couple of players could develop beyond expectations, but my guess is that Henderson leaving signals the cancellation of a championship-caliber peak in the program. That is just how it works in modern college basketball (IMO of course).

I look forward to having a championship caliber team in 2013 or 2014. Whether or not we have one before then isn't impossible, but chances of that happening seem to have just taken a big hit.

Again, I have no bitterness reserved for G. I was happy to have him while he was here. This is just basketball today. Hope you have a great NBA career G!!

I agree 100%. With only 3 guards next yr. the program took a big step back for next year. Unfortunately, I think the next peak will be 2010-2011, if we can land Barnes and Singler stays for his senior season (both very possible).

For those of you thinking E. Williams can replace G next season are crazy. Elliot barely even played until Feb. He showed some signs of being great, but I don't see that until he is an upperclassmen. Even if he makes a big jump next year, we have nobody to play his role last season.

We need Wall in the worst way. It would be a shame for Scheyer, Thomas, and Zoubek to end their careers without a big tourney run.

With that said, G is making a smart move. He is ready for the NBA and will be lottery pick.

[miramar]

I think we all agree that as things stand right now, Duke won't be the most athletic team in the country, not to mention that we still don't have a true point guard or a real post presence. Nevertheless, if Scheyer, Smith, Williams, and Singler end up starting in the 1-4 positions, that's four Mickey D's. Add Thomas, Ryan Kelly, or Mason Plumlee at the 5 and that's the entire starting five. If you factor in the natural progression from one year to the next, not to mention some hard work over the summer, I think Coach K will put together a very strong team next year. Henderson is a big loss, and we could certainly use a PG, but we have a lot to look forward to no matter what.

[FireOgilvie]

I believe we can have a Final Four/Championship contender next Season with a commitment from either Wall or Bledsoe. Without, we are crazy thin in the backcourt. Woefully thin to be exact. And in fact, I question the recruitment process in a big way. G going pro shouldn't have caught anyone by surprise. The fact that we only have Ewill, Smith and Sheyer for guards at Duke is a glaring mis-management of the program. Seriously, of all the kids who play hoops we sign 3 to play at Duke, you are kidding me right? I don't blame G for that. Placing all our bets on a spring commitment from two guards that haven't academically cleared is a sign of desperation.

However, K and staff could be totally exonerated by landing Wall...I don't know that any of us expect that though.


Pocius has another year of eligibility, but he chose to leave. He would have provided some depth.

Best of luck to G. Hopefully, he'll be on a team where he can some playing time.

[KyDevilinIL]

I think we all agree that as things stand right now, Duke won't be the most athletic team in the country, not to mention that we still don't have a true point guard or a real post presence. Nevertheless, if Scheyer, Smith, Williams, and Singler end up starting in the 1-4 positions, that's four Mickey D's. Add Thomas, Ryan Kelly, or Mason Plumlee at the 5 and that's the entire starting five. If you factor in the natural progression from one year to the next, not to mention some hard work over the summer, I think Coach K will put together a very strong team next year. Henderson is a big loss, and we could certainly use a PG, but we have a lot to look forward to no matter what.

With no Wall or Bledsoe, G's departure essentially means we are subtracting from a pretty good team without adding much of immediate value. Kelly and Plumlee might very well be super at some point, but I'm not holding out hope of it happening in 09-10. I never do with freshmen. Every single one of the guys we've got coming back must improve by a tremendous degree in order for us not to be essentially the exact same team next season – in both style and results.

Oh well. This is what many of us expected as soon as the horn sounded in Boston. There's such a fine line in college hoops. Two players – Henderson and either Wall or Bledsoe – are the difference between a legitimate title run and finishing perhaps third or fourth in the league.

[AtlDuke72]

I'd be disappointed if I thought G wasn't ready, or if I thought it was a bad decision. But he is ready. He should be a lottery pick. It would be foolish for him not to leave now, and anyone thinking otherwise is deluding him/herself. I, for one, am really excited to see what he can do in the league. Good luck G!

I don't think it would be foolish for him to return for his senior years and do not think those disageeing with you are delusional. Henderson may not be drafted until the 15th pick or so. He could improve, have a great season and go much higher next year. Going up 10 places or so could be worth more than $10 M. I think his chances of reaching his full potential are better with another year of coaching and playing at Duke than being down the bench on a pro team which is very possible. Look back at how much improvement a number of Duke players had during their senior year and you may see what i mean. This would include Danny Ferry, Laettner, Grant Hill, Chris Duhon and others. My guess , and it is only a guess , is that this is what GH and his family will be evaluating in the next few weeks. There are a number of areas where his game could improve that could change him from a good player to a great player. I wish him nothing but the best whatever he decides to do, but the decision is not as cut and dried as you have stated.

[SupaDave]

G will add to the long list of Dukies in the pros and I'm very happy about this development. I'd also like to compliment those of you who realize that this is pretty much a once in a lifetime opportunity. Please appreciate being a part of this moment.

[Ian]

A lot of you are looking at this completely wrong.

In the long term this is good for the program, because guess what, elite level players pick programs that they think can best help them get to the league.

Henderson going pro and getting picked in the lottery is a selling point for K and the Duke program.

[kramerbr]

G will add to the long list of Dukies in the pros and I'm very happy about this development. I'd also like to compliment those of you who realize that this is pretty much a once in a lifetime opportunity. Please appreciate being a part of this moment.

^^^ Agree. Anyone who says G should of stayed is just being selfish. I think the consesus from Duke fans is they are extremely happy for him but just sad to see such a great guy go. He will definately make the Duke family very very proud.

Good luck G and thanks for all the memories.

[dukemsu]

Goodbye, G. Be sure to come back and visit. Thanks for all the blocks, dunks, fadeaways, and smooth, composed play.

Thanks also for the first-class way in which you conducted yourself and the strong leadership you exhibited, especially this season.

Tear 'em up at the next level and say hi to all the Devils for us.

LGD.

dukemsu

[heyman25]

I think we all agree that as things stand right now, Duke won't be the most athletic team in the country, not to mention that we still don't have a true point guard or a real post presence. Nevertheless, if Scheyer, Smith, Williams, and Singler end up starting in the 1-4 positions, that's four Mickey D's. Add Thomas, Ryan Kelly, or Mason Plumlee at the 5 and that's the entire starting five. If you factor in the natural progression from one year to the next, not to mention some hard work over the summer, I think Coach K will put together a very strong team next year. Henderson is a big loss, and we could certainly use a PG, but we have a lot to look forward to no matter what.


The Mickey D factor is not a great guage on how they will do in NCAA BBall world. I wish Duke could find better players flying under the radar. The 4 we have are doing well,but all could improve their offensive game skills.Duke's inaccurate shooting against Villanova was a major reason for the lopsided score.Ryan Kelly needs major work before he will make much of a contribution. Coach Cutliffe looks for speed and quickness. Duke basketball should be doing the same in its recruiting. Will Zoubek and Thomas be any better than last season? Will Miles Plumlee make any contributions? If we can get Wall that will make everyone better.We don't have a great ball distributor that can penetrate and dish. We will be good next season not great.With Wall we could be very good.

[BlueintheFace]

A lot of you are looking at this completely wrong.

In the long term this is good for the program, because guess what, elite level players pick programs that they think can best help them get to the league.

Henderson going pro and getting picked in the lottery is a selling point for K and the Duke program.

I believe the long-term benefit to the program of G leaving is far outweighed by the long-term detriment of G leaving to the program.

Benefit: Recruits see that Duke puts their players in the league. Although this is true, G is not an important development here. Coach K can already point to NBA all-stars and major contributors all over the league that he coached (those that graduated and left early with K's support). G adds one more piece but has no individual benefit in this area.

Detriment: Duke has not been to a Final Four since 2004 and has not won a championship since 2001. This has led many to play up the demise of the Duke program more and more each year. There is a growing perception that Duke is not where kids go to win championships (fair or not) and Duke would have had it's best opportunity since 2006 next year (see my previous post about top tier teams and cycles). The one thing that helps recruiting more than anything else is a trip to the final four/ a national championship (just winning). Now that G is gone, Duke's chances of getting either have gone down SIGNIFICANTLY. G leaving simply hurts Duke's chances of success in March, which hurts the reputation of the program, and potentially recruiting.

This is how it works in college basketball today and Duke certainly isn't the only program effected, but I just refuse to buy an argument that Duke losing it's best player helps the program in the long run. This argument MIGHT be true for a mid-major program, but not Duke.

G will probably be better off, and Duke will not. That's disappointing, but fine by me. good Luck G.

[Virginian]

Of course I wish G great success. We're all happy for his bright future.

But man, what might have been. He really just came into his own the last few months of this season. He had SO MUCH to show. He would have dazzled the ACC and the NCAA in another year at Duke. That would have been awesome.

And realistically, we've just gone from a team that had a superb chance at another Final Four appearance to being just one more team that has a decent shot at the Sweet Sixteen. Nothing to celebrate about that.

Sigh.

[Ian]

Detriment: Duke has not been to a Final Four since 2004 and has not won a championship since 2001. This has led many to play up the demise of the Duke program more and more each year. There is a growing perception that Duke is not where kids go to win championships (fair or not) and Duke would have had it's best opportunity since 2006 next year (see my previous post about top tier teams and cycles). ].

WHO CARES!

Really, you really think any of that matters? Players go to programs to get to the league, not because of "perception of the demise" and other such nonsense.

You think Michael Beasley picked Kansas State because they've been to FFs? Or Blake Griffin picked Oklahoma because they've been to a FF recently?

That stuff is a big deal with fans and media because they make for good conversation. But people who's are making decisions about their future couldn't care less, they only care about how going to a program can help them personally.

[houstondukie]

I think we all agree that as things stand right now, Duke won't be the most athletic team in the country, not to mention that we still don't have a true point guard or a real post presence. Nevertheless, if Scheyer, Smith, Williams, and Singler end up starting in the 1-4 positions, that's four Mickey D's. Add Thomas, Ryan Kelly, or Mason Plumlee at the 5 and that's the entire starting five. If you factor in the natural progression from one year to the next, not to mention some hard work over the summer, I think Coach K will put together a very strong team next year. Henderson is a big loss, and we could certainly use a PG, but we have a lot to look forward to no matter what.

But we have no backup guards. That's a HUGE Achilles heel.

[BlueintheFace]

WHO CARES!

Really, you really think any of that matters? Players go to programs to get to the league, not because of "perception of the demise" and other such nonsense.

You think Michael Beasley picked Kansas State because they've been to FFs? Or Blake Griffin picked Oklahoma because they've been to a FF recently?

That stuff is a big deal with fans and media because they make for good conversation. But people who's are making decisions about their future couldn't care less, they only care about how going to a program can help them personally.

I don't really know how to explain to you how wrong you are... I guess all I can do is direct you to hundreds of top tier recruits over the years that have been gone to good basketball schools and have been asked- "why did you choose school X?"

Their responses are pretty uniform:

I have a good relationship with coach Y and feel like he can teach me a lot
I really like the players and the program
I came here to win a championship

Just look over the list and see if you can surmise which answer I was speaking to with my previous post.

[Jumbo]

I don't really know how to explain to you how wrong you are... I guess all I can do is direct you to hundreds of top tier recruits over the years that have been gone to good basketball schools and have been asked- "why did you choose school X?"

Their responses are pretty uniform:

I have a good relationship with coach Y and feel like he can teach me a lot
I really like the players and the program
I came here to win a championship

Just look over the list and see if you can surmise which answer I was speaking to with my previous post.

Actually, Ian's response is much closer to the truth than you seem to realize. All the things you mention -- relationship with coach, quality of teammates, etc. -- are important in recruiting. But the top tier recruits are all focused strongly on making it to the NBA. Manhy of them have dreamed of playing NBA basketball, not college basketball. So, issues like playing time, style, role, etc. are all critical as they evaluate programs.

Prestige, too, is a major factor. All things being equal, most top recruits would prefer featured roles on prestigious teams. Why? They're on TV all the time, they become higher-profile players, they enjoy the benefits of huge, enthusiastic fan bases, etc.

Don't think for a second that Duke still isn't considered as prestigious as schools come for recruits, just because it hasn't reached the Final Four since 2004. Believe me, guys know that they can and will win if they go to Duke. It's the other things -- style of play, role, development, ego-stroking, etc. -- that have played much bigger roles in recruiting misses.

[Defenserules]

I'm happy that G will be happy. I liked watching him play and it makes me sad to think that I likely won't get that chance again because I refuse to care about or watch the NBA, it just bores me to tears. I disagree that this is a once in a lifetime opportunity. He would have the same opportunity next year. Shane had the same opportunity and didn't take it. Christian has the same opportunity and didn't take it. Grant too. I'm not down on G for doing it but the team could have been really special next year if he would have stayed and now I think we only have an opportunity to be good and will need a lot of luck and some unexpected contributions to be great. I think G had the opportunity to grow into one of those special Duke players that you will alway remember. As it stands now it he was a good player but not a special player and likely in five or ten years my biggest memory of G will be the bloody nose and his last game, which was awful. I don't mean that as a cut on his contribution to the Duke legacy, but really he didn't really leave much else behind for me to remember him by but a couple of great dunks and some big shots that will hopefully be replaced in my memory by some other young man taking us to the promise land. Again I love G, but I don't buy the whole - its his dream he should start now. That argument has no other logical conclusion than "respecting" a kids decision to go oversees during his Junior year. there is no difference. Duke commited to G and G commited to Duke. Duke would have fullfilled its commitment to G if he would have wanted to stay. G did not fullfill his commitment to us. Call me old fashioned but as happy as I am that G will be rich a year earlier, I can't help but hate the decision because whether we want to admit it or not, what G is doing is having a negative effect on the team I love and a sport I think is second only to the greatest sport ever -- college football. I know I'll get some negative feedback for this but college basketball would be much better if their were more William Avery's and fewer early entry success stories. Again, G didn't create the "new" system, but his decision certainly reenforces the new norm. I made a rule a few years ago after Shane stayed and basically that rule is if you are great and stay four years you are special player, if you do not well you were a part of the family but never will be a favorite son. Again, love G, but in my book he quit the team for a better personal opportunity that had no real relation to the what's best for Duke or the guys that have sweated and dreamed about winning a championship with him every day at practice. K certainly had better opportunities to make more money over the years and turned them down because of his loyalty to Duke. I just wished more of our youngsters followed his lead and choose to take the opportunity to create something really special instead of taking the opportunity to make money a year earlier.

Good luck G. Hope you do well. Just sad that your skills as a basketball player are no longer important to me. Do us proud though, because you will always be associated with Duke as a person.

[natedog4ever]

I don't really know how to explain to you how wrong you are... I guess all I can do is direct you to hundreds of top tier recruits over the years that have been gone to good basketball schools and have been asked- "why did you choose school X?"

Their responses are pretty uniform:

I have a good relationship with coach Y and feel like he can teach me a lot
I really like the players and the program
I came here to win a championship

Just look over the list and see if you can surmise which answer I was speaking to with my previous post.


Actually, I can't explain how wrong you are. Wanting Gerald to stay is short-term management, versus long-term. Let's put it this way - Duke basketball does not want to be in the business of having players like Henderson, who are "supposed" to be NBA locks, playing as seniors. It looks bad for all involved and it is not what the top recruits are looking for these days.

Don't get me wrong, any kid that asks me, including UNC guys, I'm telling to stay in school.

It's just the way it is these days.

[dukemsu]

I'm happy that G will be happy. I liked watching him play and it makes me sad to think that I likely won't get that chance again because I refuse to care about or watch the NBA, it just bores me to tears. I disagree that this is a once in a lifetime opportunity. He would have the same opportunity next year. Shane had the same opportunity and didn't take it. I made a rule a few years ago after Shane stayed and basically that rule is if you are great and stay four years you are special player, if you do not well you were a part of the family but never will be a favorite son.

I agree with parts of your post. My opinion, though, is that if you're looking for another Shane, you're going to be looking forever. And that's no slight to G. Shane was the kind of player and person that most programs never get to see or call their own. Duke's been very fortunate to count a few that were similar to Shane (Grant, Hurley, Laettner, were similar in many ways). But Shane was a truly unique player and situation. I don't know if K considers him a favorite son or not (from most of the Duke fans I've met, it's clear that JD holds that spot with K), but it's my impression that Shane is considered at that level by most of the fanbase.

Most guys who play in the program will never match Shane's accomplishments or Grant's or Laettner's for that matter. Some of that's due to circumstance and the new environment, but some of that's due to the unique attributes those guys brought with them.

LGD.

dukemsu

[cwaugh]

hey dukemsu who is JD?

[dukemsu]

hey dukemsu who is JD?

Johnny Dawkins.

dukemsu

[Scorp4me]

Is everyone just afraid if they say it then it won't happen? I mean we all expected this, did anyone really expect he wouldn't at least declare? He hasn't signed an agent, I keep hearing from those with absolutely no inside knowledge and only gut feelings that he is coming back. But he'd be a fool to not at least declare and check things out. It's why the process is in place, to learn. He hasn't signed an agent correct? So I see no difference now than yesterday before he declared. I mean could he really get an honest opinion from the pro's if he said he was "just" checking things out? I mean who says that anymore.

[ncexnyc]

Is everyone just afraid if they say it then it won't happen? I mean we all expected this, did anyone really expect he wouldn't at least declare? He hasn't signed an agent, I keep hearing from those with absolutely no inside knowledge and only gut feelings that he is coming back. But he'd be a fool to not at least declare and check things out. It's why the process is in place, to learn. He hasn't signed an agent correct? So I see no difference now than yesterday before he declared. I mean could he really get an honest opinion from the pro's if he said he was "just" checking things out? I mean who says that anymore.

There's alot of truth in what you say. If G was certain he was going I'm sure his dad could have hooked him up with an agent in no time and it would be a done deal. Since G hasn't hired an agent yet there is still the chance he decides to return for his senior season, even though it's a mighty slim chance.

[Jumbo]

There's alot of truth in what you say. If G was certain he was going I'm sure his dad could have hooked him up with an agent in no time and it would be a done deal. Since G hasn't hired an agent yet there is still the chance he decides to return for his senior season, even though it's a mighty slim chance.

Folks, he's gone. Not signing with an agent just protects him in case he suffers some major injury between now and the draft (or if his stock drops because he suddenly forgets how to play basketball). He's not testing the waters. He's just protecting himself. He's gone, so let's wish him luck and move on.

[ncexnyc]

Folks, he's gone. Not signing with an agent just protects him in case he suffers some major injury between now and the draft (or if his stock drops because he suddenly forgets how to play basketball). He's not testing the waters. He's just protecting himself. He's gone, so let's wish him luck and move on.

Sorry, but I'm not hearing the fat lady singing yet.:D

[Jumbo]

Sorry, but I'm not hearing the fat lady singing yet.:D

Denial is more than a river in Egypt ... ;)

[Bob Green]

Denial is more than a river in Egypt ... ;)

Yep, denial is the first of six stages Duke fans need to move through. :) Unfortunately, many fans will be stuck bargaining because Henderson hasn't hired an agent. Personally, I've moved straight through to acceptance.

[BlueintheFace]

Actually, I can't explain how wrong you are. Wanting Gerald to stay is short-term management, versus long-term. Let's put it this way - Duke basketball does not want to be in the business of having players like Henderson, who are "supposed" to be NBA locks, playing as seniors. It looks bad for all involved and it is not what the top recruits are looking for these days.

Don't get me wrong, any kid that asks me, including UNC guys, I'm telling to stay in school.

It's just the way it is these days.

Yah, Carolina really has suffered. Nice.

[BlueintheFace]

Actually, Ian's response is much closer to the truth than you seem to realize. All the things you mention -- relationship with coach, quality of teammates, etc. -- are important in recruiting. But the top tier recruits are all focused strongly on making it to the NBA. Manhy of them have dreamed of playing NBA basketball, not college basketball. So, issues like playing time, style, role, etc. are all critical as they evaluate programs.

What are you talking about? Do you honestly think Gerald leaving helps us more long term than it hurts us?

1) All the top tier teams put players in the league. Top tier recruits go to top tier teams because they can get to the league that way. Nobody contests that. Players ALREADY KNOW they can get to the NBA through Duke because they have televisions and sportscenter. They know the same thing about Carolina, Uconn, etc...


Prestige, too, is a major factor. All things being equal, most top recruits would prefer featured roles on prestigious teams. Why? They're on TV all the time, they become higher-profile players, they enjoy the benefits of huge, enthusiastic fan bases, etc.

Don't think for a second that Duke still isn't considered as prestigious as schools come for recruits, just because it hasn't reached the Final Four since 2004. Believe me, guys know that they can and will win if they go to Duke.

2)I don't think that, which is why I never said anything like that.

My whole point has to do with prestige. You are literally making my point for me. If the top tier recruits are choosing from the top tier colleges because they all CAN get them in to the NBA ( "all things being equal") then one of the next things they look to is prestige. Duke is still very high up in prestige, but you would be a fool to think that the Duke brand hasn't taken a hit recently as a result of not winning in March.

SO, does Gerald Henderson leaving early really help our recruiting by showing that we put players in the NBA? A little, but not that much. It's old news. You go to Duke, you make an impact, you get to the NBA. Same as other top schools.

Gerald leaving does however seriously hurt our chances of winning big in March for the first time in a while and regaining some of the prestige we have lost recently. G leaving hurts our chances of getting back to the Final Four.

You get prestige by winning in March. It is really that simple. Duke's prestige stock is dipping (like every other stock) because they haven't won in a while. Sure the stock is still high, but it is on the decline and prestige in college basketball is dictated by the marketplace of perception. Duke is perceived to be on the decline so the brand is becoming a tougher sell. Losing out on the opportunity to spike the stock back up is just a bigger loss than the gain the brand might se by proving to everybody something they already know, Duke puts players in the NBA.

[Ian]

My whole point has to do with prestige. You are literally making my point for me. If the top tier recruits are choosing from the top tier colleges because they all CAN get them in to the NBA ( "all things being equal") then one of the next things they look to is prestige.

This is the kind of talk that can only come from some one who is far away from the situation, and from that distance, the difference between the abilities of coaches to help a recruit get to the league looks the same, when in reality the differences are huge to a recruit who is close to the situation.

It's like a college grad deciding between Duke Medical School and say, Medical School at UConn. From the perspective of some lay blue collar person, what does it matter, both schools will make you a doctor, it makes no difference. For somebody who wants to be one of the best doctors, the differences are huge between those schools.

Coach K could leave Duke tomorrow, go coach at Seton Hall or Northwestern or whereever , and I guarantee you he'd bring in top recruits and in 2 or 3 years they'd be top 10 team in the country.

Why would that happen if what the recruit cares about is how well the program has done recently? Because they don't, at least not much, the key is the coach and how that coach can help them develop into the best basketball player they can possibly be.

[zingit]

Who knows whether this means anything, but Paul Haagan (http://sports.chronicleblogs.com/2009/04/25/henderson-declares-without-agent-for-nba-draft/#more-5110), chair of the Student-Athlete Counseling Committee, seems to leave open the possibility of G coming back, and says it would be wise to wait until there's more information about what team he might go to (the lottery for picks is May 19) before making a final decision about whether to stay in or not. I take it to mean that if they got word that he would end up on some dysfunctional team (like the Clippers or Golden State? I don't know, I don't follow the NBA much) that he might think about pulling out. Considering that this committee personally advises (http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2009/04/08/MBasketball/Committee.Helps.Guide.Future.Pros-3701926.shtml) all our players considering going pro, he has some credibility, and perhaps a tiny bit of influence on G. And after all, it seems like smart advice.

Call it far-fetched, say I'm in denial, whatever, I understand we should expect G to stay in the draft. I realize that G's press release did not mention anything about the possibility of coming back. But I just thought I'd point this out because it is from someone who has actually talked with G, though we don't know how much or how recently. Just sayin': It's not over till it's over. Hey, stranger things have happened than a talented player returning to school for his senior season.

[slower]

It's like a college grad deciding between Duke Medical School and say, Medical School at UConn. From the perspective of some lay blue collar person, what does it matter, both schools will make you a doctor, it makes no difference. For somebody who wants to be one of the best doctors, the differences are huge between those schools.

Yes, Duke Med > UConn Med (if there is such a thing) - not even close. But Duke Basketball, in the eyes of many recruits, is NOT > UConn (or Kansas, Memphis, UNC, etc.) Basketball.

Playing basketball for Duke will not necessarily make you a better pro than going to one of the other top-tier schools.

And the snarky "lay, blue-collar" statement is unnecessary.

[Faison1]

I've really enjoyed watching you play, G. You had some amazing moments at Duke, and I will always remember your smile when your team won the ACC Tourney. Although I don't know you personally, you seem like such a nice kid, and someone a parent can be truly proud of. Good luck, and keep a good head on your shoulders!

[CameronBornAndBred]

He hasn't signed an agent, I keep hearing from those with absolutely no inside knowledge and only gut feelings that he is coming back. But he'd be a fool to not at least declare and check things out. It's why the process is in place, to learn. He hasn't signed an agent correct? So I see no difference now than yesterday before he declared.
His statements regarding Duke in his press release were all worded in the past tense. You don't put subject matter in the past tense unless you feel those days are behind you.

[superdave]

I am surprised people are holding out hope of GH coming back. He's good enough to be in the lottery, will likely back that impression up in workouts and go between 10-15. Would you come back if you could be the 13th pick? Me neither. Use your heads instead of your hearts on this one.

Unless he blows out a knee (or gets a DUI!), then he's gone and he's going to be a really good third or fourth options for someone in the NBA. I'd say he could be like Josh Howard for the Mavs - really good, occasionally great.

We should stick to discussing Duke next year without GH and GH's future in the NBA. Please give up the wishful posts about why he could impove at Duke next year!

I really hope GH does not end up playing for the Bobcats with all those UNC guys. Or for the dysfunctional Knicks, Raptors or Bucks. Phoenix could be good, or Golden State, where they run.

[natedog4ever]

Yah, Carolina really has suffered. Nice.

If I read your sarcasm correctly, then you are exactly on point. They do put their NBA "locks" into the league early. And, whether it is deserved or not, there is a perception/reputation that they encourage early entry when it is in the best interest of the player.

Again, I wish none of them would go early, but Duke needs to adjust, or be left behind. I think Duke is adjusting. I think some of the fans are having a harder time.

[allenmurray]

Folks, he's gone. Not signing with an agent just protects him in case he suffers some major injury between now and the draft (or if his stock drops because he suddenly forgets how to play basketball). He's not testing the waters. He's just protecting himself. He's gone, so let's wish him luck and move on.

I agree. People are reading far too much into G not signing with an agent. Given K's recent work on the Olympic team (and all that NBA contact that requried) and Henderson Sr.'s status as a former NBA player, not having an agent for G is far different than it would be for many other players. He is less in need of that professional service than others would be.

[HDB]

If I read your sarcasm correctly, then you are exactly on point. They do put their NBA "locks" into the league early. And, whether it is deserved or not, there is a perception/reputation that they encourage early entry when it is in the best interest of the player.

I would certainly consider Ed David a lottery "lock" this year but he's staying at UNC.

[natedog4ever]

I would certainly consider Ed David a lottery "lock" this year but he's staying at UNC.

The point of contention was NBA "locks" (which would include players assumed to be lottery picks), staying for their senior year. Trust me, Ed Davis will not play NCAA basketball as a senior.

[ncexnyc]

I'm curious about the double standard being exhibited here on this board. Those of us who want G to stay, so that we can have the best possible team on the floor next year are called, "SELFISH." However when a kid tests the draft waters and doesn't get the feedback he wants to hear, so he returns, then all is fine and dandy. Isn't that being selfish?

I'm also wondering about this phrase, "A once in a lifetime opportunity" that some members love to throw around. G could have left last year, he's testing the waters this year and probably is gone, but he could also go next year. So that's three, "A once in a lifetime opportunity" he's had available to him.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I'm also wondering about this phrase, "A once in a lifetime opportunity" that some members love to throw around. G could have left last year, he's testing the waters this year and probably is gone, but he could also go next year. So that's three, "A once in a lifetime opportunity" he's had available to him.
They are referencing the fact that this year is his best opportunity. Last year he would not have been a lottery pick, or even a likely first rounder. Next year, the draft will be deeper, and as some have pointed out an NBA lockout looms. This year his window is open the widest.

[BlueintheFace]

If I read your sarcasm correctly, then you are exactly on point. They do put their NBA "locks" into the league early. And, whether it is deserved or not, there is a perception/reputation that they encourage early entry when it is in the best interest of the player.

Again, I wish none of them would go early, but Duke needs to adjust, or be left behind. I think Duke is adjusting. I think some of the fans are having a harder time.

No, my sarcasm is referring to the fact that Carolina just BROUGHT BACK 3 NBA locks for another season at Carolina. Ellington, Hansbrough (NPOY), and Lawson were all projected to be drafted. All returned, thus thoroughly refuting that kids stay away from those kinds of programs (Carolina is doing fairly well in recruiting right now).

Additionally, Duke puts NBA locks in the NBA just as much as other top tier programs. G going isn't going to change that fact. Him going isn't going to change any perception since the perception that Duke puts players in the NBA when they are ready is already there.

[BlueintheFace]

This is the kind of talk that can only come from some one who is far away from the situation, and from that distance, the difference between the abilities of coaches to help a recruit get to the league looks the same, when in reality the differences are huge to a recruit who is close to the situation.

-- To correctly analyze the situation, you must take a step back. As a Duke fan, I have your opinion. However, when I try to step back and impose some objectivity, I have to look at the NUMBERS. All of these programs put their impact players in the league. They just do. I'd tally up how many players get drafted from the other top tier schools over the last 5 years (or as far back as you might think a recruit will remember NBA Drafts) and show you how all of these top tier schools put plenty of kids in the NBA, but frankly I am just lazy. If anybody else wants to do it, that would be awesome. My guess is that some schools get more kids in the NBA than others, but all put in an adequate amount to assure recruits that they can get to the NBA with that coach/school.

-- I just want to point to a logical inconsistency that I am seeing in a lot of posts here.

Many are weighing the benefits of a perception that Duke can put players in the NBA with the detriment of Duke losing out on a potential Final Four season that this team has been building towards for three years.

This is not the correct weighing test. You have to look at the INDIVIDUAL UTILITY. I am talking about weighing the benefit of Gerald Henderson providing another example of Duke putting players in the NBA against the detriment of Duke losing out on a potential Final Four season that this team has been building towards for three years.

My real point is that Duke already has the reputation that it puts players in the NBA. So does Kansas, UNC, Florida, Uconn, and other teams that Duke recruits inevitably also have on their list. So a top recruit really cares about getting in to the NBA, I agree, but then he has 3 or 4 schools on his final list that all can help him do that. What does he turn to next? Winning. The more your team wins in March, the more hype you and your team get. The more prestige your program gets.

Duke, like many other schools we recruit against, have the NBA rep. However, because Duke is popular, the media creates severe perceptions (Duke is the best, Duke's demise is near) and right now the perception of Duke offered up for these kids (and the public at large) is that Duke's prestige and ability to win in March is on the decline. This is just a fact. It sucks.

Gerald Henderson would help the long term health of the program more by reversing this popular perception (as undeserved as it is) than he helps by adding another name to the long list of players in the NBA.

Bottom line-- I believe the perception that Duke puts players in the NBA is safe (look at the numbers). I believe that the perception that Duke is highly prestigious and able to win in March is on the decline (look at the numbers). G certainly could have helped more long term by simply helping this team winning in march than by being another NBA statline for recruits to look at.

[johaad]

May not be exactly what you're looking for but here is a list of colleges that produce the most NBA players.
http://www.askmen.com/top_10/fitness_100/111_fitness_list.html

[natedog4ever]

No, my sarcasm is referring to the fact that Carolina just BROUGHT BACK 3 NBA locks for another season at Carolina. Ellington, Hansbrough (NPOY), and Lawson were all projected to be drafted. All returned, thus thoroughly refuting that kids stay away from those kinds of programs (Carolina is doing fairly well in recruiting right now).

Additionally, Duke puts NBA locks in the NBA just as much as other top tier programs. G going isn't going to change that fact. Him going isn't going to change any perception since the perception that Duke puts players in the NBA when they are ready is already there.

That's funny - those guys, including Green, but not hansbrough, did everything in their power to leave after their sophomore years. There wasn't a chance in hell that they were staying for their senior seasons. Additionally, if you read into Williams comments, he even intimates that he doesn't expect guys like Zeller or Davis to be there longer than a couple of years.

What don't you understand about the fact that being a senior in the NCAA is a percieved stigma when it comes to NBA aspirations? Nothing you have come up with can even remotely refute my original statement.

And before you go down the Hansbrough path, please don't act like he is in the same league with the other guys we are talking about. He is much closer to a Battier or Redick than a Henderson or Maggette.

[dukelifer]

No, my sarcasm is referring to the fact that Carolina just BROUGHT BACK 3 NBA locks for another season at Carolina. Ellington, Hansbrough (NPOY), and Lawson were all projected to be drafted. All returned, thus thoroughly refuting that kids stay away from those kinds of programs (Carolina is doing fairly well in recruiting right now).

Additionally, Duke puts NBA locks in the NBA just as much as other top tier programs. G going isn't going to change that fact. Him going isn't going to change any perception since the perception that Duke puts players in the NBA when they are ready is already there.

I think if you look at the top 15-20 kids out of high school, the expected time they will spend in college is less than 3 years-probably closer to two years- even for UNC. So when a player plays three years as has G, this is beyond what is expected. I think folks have to go in now thinking that if you recruit a top 15 kid - he is likely only to spend 2 years in college, hopefully 3. If you get three- you are probably getting the max. So you can either not go after top 20 kids, which Duke seems to be doing more these days- or live with the consequences when you do.

I expected G to have the season he had this past year in his sophomore season. If he had, who knows - he may have been here only two years.

[duke1868]

Sounds to me like Henderson will hire an agent:

http://novafantasysports.com/duke+blue+devils+gerald+henderson+enters+the+nba+d raft

[BlueintheFace]

That's funny - those guys, including Green, but not hansbrough, did everything in their power to leave after their sophomore years. There wasn't a chance in hell that they were staying for their senior seasons. Additionally, if you read into Williams comments, he even intimates that he doesn't expect guys like Zeller or Davis to be there longer than a couple of years.

What don't you understand about the fact that being a senior in the NCAA is a percieved stigma when it comes to NBA aspirations? Nothing you have come up with can even remotely refute my original statement.

And before you go down the Hansbrough path, please don't act like he is in the same league with the other guys we are talking about. He is much closer to a Battier or Redick than a Henderson or Maggette.

I did not read the part about seniors. If I had I would not have included Ellington and Lawson. That is my fault. I probably just would have pointed to all of the former Duke players that stayed for their senior season and increased their draft stock. That being said, this post ^ reads like:

"Look at my examples!!! They prove my point... except for that one example. Ignore that one."

However, I still am struggling to understand your original point. Is it that Henderson staying for his senior year would hurt the program long term more than it helps? Would the reasoning behind this be that recruits would perceive that Duke players have to stay 4 years to get in to the NBA?

[Edouble]

I don't think it would be foolish for him to return for his senior years and do not think those disageeing with you are delusional. Henderson may not be drafted until the 15th pick or so. He could improve, have a great season and go much higher next year. Going up 10 places or so could be worth more than $10 M. I think his chances of reaching his full potential are better with another year of coaching and playing at Duke than being down the bench on a pro team which is very possible. Look back at how much improvement a number of Duke players had during their senior year and you may see what i mean. This would include Danny Ferry, Laettner, Grant Hill, Chris Duhon and others. My guess , and it is only a guess , is that this is what GH and his family will be evaluating in the next few weeks. There are a number of areas where his game could improve that could change him from a good player to a great player. I wish him nothing but the best whatever he decides to do, but the decision is not as cut and dried as you have stated.

After reading the whole thread, this is really the post that sums up my personal point of view best.

I completely disagree that wanting G to stay makes one "selfish". Things are just not that black and white. I think the best argument to show that wanting G to stay does not make one "selfish", is that I would bet that there are many long time Duke fans that have not felt the same way about other Duke players leaving after their junior years.

Each player is a unique case, and I personally feel that G would put himself into a better long term career situation by returning for one more year at Duke. I did not feel this way when Jason Williams and Carlos Boozer, to name a few examples, left after their junior years. I thought at that time that both were as NBA ready as they were going to be, or at least most (~90%) of the way there. Even though Boozer got picked in the second round, he was obviously ready for the league.

The shortcomings in G's game are obvious and I won't rehash them again here. Despite the fact that next year will be a stronger draft, I agree with AtlDuke72 that another year at Duke could be worth 10+ spots in the draft. The lockout will be a year without money no matter when he goes. I think another year at Duke would lend itself to a longer career and more lucrative first, second, and third contracts if G worked hard to fill the gaps in his game before hitting the pros.

I hope I am wrong and that G becomes an impact player without another year at Duke, but it would be truly detrimental to the program if a player with G's athleticism becomes a non-factor in the pros. Obviously Ishmail Muhammed (undrafted, taller and as athletic as G) is an extreme example, but he is clear proof that athleticism alone does not make one a success in the NBA. G's development is far from tapering off. I sort of see it as somewhere in the middle of his potential as a college player. I think going to the NBA now, which I have fully accepted that G is going to do, wouldn't necessarily suspend G's growth, but I don't think his development would be as accelerated in his first year in the pros as it would be in his senior year at Duke. The fact that we are starting to see G develop as a potentially special player so late, I believe, lends itself to the theory that he could really blow up in his senior year. Jason Williams was not going to get much better his senior year. He showed that he was a potential legend in the making his frosh and at the start of his sophomore year. He had three full years to develop. G has had like one and a half, although it's hard to measure. Clearly, he didn't show what he was really consistently capable of until this year. Just my personal opinion of course. But I think that last year at Duke could lead to 3-4 more years in the pros.

[Jumbo]

What are you talking about? Do you honestly think Gerald leaving helps us more long term than it hurts us?
I'm talking about all the things recruits evaluate in addition to "winning." In many cases, winning comes after all the other things I described. And no, I don't think Gerald helps us long-term at all. It doesn't hurt us long-term, either. Just short-term.


All the top tier teams put players in the league. Top tier recruits go to top tier teams because they can get to the league that way. Nobody contests that. Players ALREADY KNOW they can get to the NBA through Duke because they have televisions and sportscenter. They know the same thing about Carolina, Uconn, etc...
You're making a lot of assumptions there. And the assumption I will make, after reading your posts in this thread, is that you haven't spent much time talking to recruits or college basketball players in general (not to mention coaches, scouts, AAU people, etc.). We might know that Duke puts more guys in the NBA than any other program. That doesn't mean that recruits see things so objectively. Duke still has to fight a stigma -- perpetuated by negative recruiting from other schools -- that it is not a premier NBA pit stop. Other schools will point to examples like Josh McRoberts, who was rated as the top recruit in his class according to some services, and ended up as a second-round pick two years later. They'll say that McRoberts hurt his draft stock while at Duke, that his skills didn't develop, that Duke isn't the right destination for a good big man (conveniently ignoring the likes of Brand, Boozer and Shelden Williams), etc. They won't say "You can't win if you go to Duke." They'll say, "do you want to spend your time contributing to a winning team by setting screens (and then point to McDonald's AA Lance Thomas) or would you rather get the ball and then get out of Dodge?"


My whole point has to do with prestige. You are literally making my point for me. If the top tier recruits are choosing from the top tier colleges because they all CAN get them in to the NBA ( "all things being equal") then one of the next things they look to is prestige. Duke is still very high up in prestige, but you would be a fool to think that the Duke brand hasn't taken a hit recently as a result of not winning in March.
I'm not making your point for you. I'm saying two things:
1) Prestige can be fairly low on a recruit's list of priorities. A top-flight player who is determined to get to the league as quickly at possible is likely to consider playing time, system, role, players ahead of him around him all before "prestige." And more than anything, the most important category is "coach." Players commit to coaches, not schools. And if you don't believe that, look what is happening now with Memphis and Kentucky. Or with Kelvin Sampson at OU and IU. Or even Trent Johnson with Miles Plumlee.

While the mass media might be harping on the fact that Duke hasn't made the Final Four since 2004, recruits don't particularly care. They still see Duke as a winning program, their high school and AAU coaches still see Duke as a winning program and opposing coaches won't waste their breath trying to convince them that Duke is not a winning program with unbelievable prestige.

Where they will try to hurt Duke, again, is by questioning K's commitment to developing NBA talent. Some recruits have been convinced that K will try to hold them back and keep down their minutes to keep them in school longer. Through negative recruiting, other coaches will convince them that they won't be able to showcase their talents fully at Duke. None of that has anything to do with "winning," and it's currently a much bigger issue for Duke to fight on the recruiting trail.


Gerald leaving does however seriously hurt our chances of winning big in March for the first time in a while and regaining some of the prestige we have lost recently. G leaving hurts our chances of getting back to the Final Four.

You get prestige by winning in March. It is really that simple. Duke's prestige stock is dipping (like every other stock) because they haven't won in a while. Sure the stock is still high, but it is on the decline and prestige in college basketball is dictated by the marketplace of perception. Duke is perceived to be on the decline so the brand is becoming a tougher sell. Losing out on the opportunity to spike the stock back up is just a bigger loss than the gain the brand might se by proving to everybody something they already know, Duke puts players in the NBA.

Prestige doesn't disappear overnight. And it certainly doesn't disappear after a 30-win season and an ACC Tourney title. We've been down a much tougher road before. By the summer of 1996, there was SERIOUS concern about the state of Duke basketball. Yeah, K had the 7-FF-in-9-years run, but then there was the infamous 1994-95 disaster, an actual losing season in which the coach had to leave the team with health issues, followed by a 1995-96 season where Duke barely made the NCAA Tourney as an 8-seed and lost in the first round to Eastern Michigan.

Yet, despite that decline, despite the whispers that K couldn't win without Laettner, Hurley and Hill, Duke managed to put together its best recruiting class EVER by landing Elton Brand, Shane Battier, Chris Burgess and William Avery in the subsequent months. The 1996-97 team put together a strong season and by the time that quartet arrived on campus, the team was stacked. Point is, "winning" certainly didn't hurt Duke's recruiting at that point and, believe me, Duke's "prestige" in that area was much lower than it is now.

Clearly, you didn't understand what I was saying before. There's no benefit in Gerald's leaving. But the negative impact won't last any longer than this season. The following year, Duke will add Thornton, Hairston, Dawkins and Curry, hopefully joined by Barnes and maybe Irving. Those kids are well aware of where Duke has finished in recent years. Whether or not Duke makes the Final Four next season won't make a bit of difference, nor will affect subsequent classes. Either that, or everything I've heard over the years from people actually involved in this process is totally wrong.

[BlueintheFace]

In the long term this is good for the program, because guess what, elite level players pick programs that they think can best help them get to the league.

So this was the original statement. The argument between Ian and I is regarding whether or not Gerald leaving is a net positive for the program or not.

I basically responded that it is a net negative for the program because the benefit of him leaving is outweighed by the lost opportunity of potentially having a final four team next year (something that I argue is becoming increasingly important the longer Duke goes without a Final Four).


There's no benefit in Gerald's leaving. But the negative impact won't last any longer than this season.

From this summary statement you gave it would seem that you agree with me on the importance of Gerald leaving being overstated. However, I think that we differ on the negative impact of Gerald leaving.

You feel that it is confined to next season and that Duke's prestige level among recruits remains steady despite a few tough years. I feel that kids today are too young to remember when Duke was even in a championship and that, although the prestige level is still high, it is falling due to media, perception, etc... To me this means that every subsequent early defection from a star on Duke is a greater loss because it takes away the opportunity to stop the perception of a decline by having a great March.

Obviously, both of us would agree that a school can only hold on to prestige for so long (in terms of recruiting) without success in March. My feeling is that you do not believe that the decline in prestige has begun yet whereas I sense that it has just a little. (Of course that is reversible).

Frankly, I don't think we are going to come to an agreement on this second point. I think we both agree that the program is just fine and that G leaving isn't that big of a deal, but I see a slight slip in program stature while you do not... thus our disagreement on the impact of G leaving.

Finally, I just want to reiterate that I am happy for Henderson. I have no bitterness whatsoever. I just think it hurts the program a little. I think that G leaving hurts a bit more than McRoberts leaving and should E-Will somehow leave early after next year, then I will believe that him leaving hurts even more. It's a function of time for me. Every subsequent defection that hurts Duke's chance of a Final Four the next season, hurts the program more and more the longer Duke goes without a Final Four.

... with that I am done with this discussion. I believe the differences in opinion have been overblown anyways. Good Luck G!

[Hancock 4 Duke]

First of all: Half of you guys' posts aren't even in relation to Henderson

Second of All: Gerald has declared without an agent. That means that he can change his mind at anytime. He is simply just testing the waters.

[Edouble]

First of all: Half of you guys' posts aren't even in relation to Henderson

Second of All: Gerald has declared without an agent. That means that he can change his mind at anytime. He is simply just testing the waters.

"Testing the waters" has not been used by anyone in Duke's nor Henderson's camps. It's true that he has not hired an agent, but I think it's pretty speculative to say he's simply testing the waters. As has already been said here several times, G's NBA connections, including his Dad and Coach K, are strong enough that he can probably get a good idea of what he's looking at draft-wise without hiring an agent anyway.

[geraldsneighbor]

I think it will be interesting how announcements and decisions are made by players next year as to enter or not. They are basically getting rid of the "testing the waters" business.

[natedog4ever]

I did not read the part about seniors. If I had I would not have included Ellington and Lawson. That is my fault. I probably just would have pointed to all of the former Duke players that stayed for their senior season and increased their draft stock. That being said, this post ^ reads like:

"Look at my examples!!! They prove my point... except for that one example. Ignore that one."

However, I still am struggling to understand your original point. Is it that Henderson staying for his senior year would hurt the program long term more than it helps? Would the reasoning behind this be that recruits would perceive that Duke players have to stay 4 years to get in to the NBA?

Nope, it reads like "look at 90% of elite level talent versus the one in a millions that Duke and UNC have been lucky enough to get, and had stay for 4 years. They are clarly a different breed than the others".

Sorry, but the guys that we are currently hinging our future on are part of that 90%. My point is that we do not want players who were originally perceived as shoe-ins for the NBA to be playing college ball as seniors. You are compeletely out of touch if you don't understand that. Like I said I want them all to stay, but that is not the world we live in today.

I think we should probably just agree to disagree because we obviously aren't seeing each other's viewpoints. Thanks for the entertaining exchange though.

[Scorp4me]

Some of you are so far down a road that you'll argue anything to support your point of view crazy or not.

Henderson waited til the last minute to declare and hasn't hired an agent. All of this despite having a dad and a coach who are bound to have gotten him good information about where he stands. The fact is he could come back. He might not, you might not think he will, but considering he may isn't simply denial.

Having Seniors like Hasnbrough or a Henderson or kids like that who stick around longer than expected does not hurt recruiting. Someone who enjoys things so much he sticks around is a negative? I hate to do it but how did that pan out for Carolina this year. The fact is a kid is only in school for 4 years at most, staying an extra year doesn't hurt and Duke isn't hurting putting kids in the NBA lately in case you haven't noticed.

Oh yeah that's right, the other thing. Since Duke hasn't won it all or been to the final four, etc., etc., they are no longer considered on par with UConn. Seriously? Trust me, Duke can still get the recruits, I just hope we continue to recruit the type of kids we've always recruited and not jump on the stepping stone types just to win it all.

[natedog4ever]

Some of you are so far down a road that you'll argue anything to support your point of view crazy or not.

Henderson waited til the last minute to declare and hasn't hired an agent. All of this despite having a dad and a coach who are bound to have gotten him good information about where he stands. The fact is he could come back. He might not, you might not think he will, but considering he may isn't simply denial.

Having Seniors like Hasnbrough or a Henderson or kids like that who stick around longer than expected does not hurt recruiting. Someone who enjoys things so much he sticks around is a negative? I hate to do it but how did that pan out for Carolina this year. The fact is a kid is only in school for 4 years at most, staying an extra year doesn't hurt and Duke isn't hurting putting kids in the NBA lately in case you haven't noticed.

Oh yeah that's right, the other thing. Since Duke hasn't won it all or been to the final four, etc., etc., they are no longer considered on par with UConn. Seriously? Trust me, Duke can still get the recruits, I just hope we continue to recruit the type of kids we've always recruited and not jump on the stepping stone types just to win it all.

It actually does hurt a program's image to have players who were considered "automatic" to the NBA to end up hanging around for 4 years. You are completely out of touch if you don't realize that in today's environment. Elite level talent will view that as a question mark for the program and coaches. Just the way it is.

I'm done with this now. There are a lot of delusional people around here. I'm glad Gerald has the opportunity and is taking it. For him and the program.

[jipops]

It's the other things -- style of play, role, development, ego-stroking, etc. -- that have played much bigger roles in recruiting misses.

Something embedded in here or would I just be yet another over-analyzing poster?

Yeah G's gone. I'm not in the know on the inner workings of the program but I'm as sure of this as I am my kids' first names. Anything else is wishful thinking, which is certainly understandable - but as stated before - fruitless.

Gerald was a kid of excellent character while at Duke, the broken Hansbrough nose not withstanding. His game developed very, very nicely while at Duke. While he showed a lot of promise and potential coming in, he absolutely exploded this past season. He developed a very nice mid-range game, a decent 3pt game which did not exist coming in, started to pass the ball extremely well on the drive, and improved his on and off the ball defense to a great degree. K and staff did a great job developing this talented kid and now's ready for the next step with an opportunity to be set for life. The decision is a no-brainer. He should be wished nothing but the best.

[umdukie]

I'm hoping his draft stock plummets so he will be forced to return. Wishful thinking? Perhaps.;)

[geraldsneighbor]

I'm hoping his draft stock plummets so he will be forced to return. Wishful thinking? Perhaps.;)

Don't wish bad on him even though I know you were joking. He deserves this. It sucks though we won't see him in Cameron though. For that, I'm sad.

[Edouble]

I'm hoping his draft stock plummets so he will be forced to return. Wishful thinking? Perhaps.;)

I hope that he gets a realistic idea of what his draft stock is. I hope that if it is late teens and his workouts show that he could use an extra year, that he's not too proud to come back. I hope that if he's staying in, that he does so with solid knowledge that he is a top ten pick.

If his draft stock plummets, I hope it is for his long term benefit, but not so that he is forced into anything.

[Kewlswim]

HI,

I realize this is not a John Wall length thread, but I don't have a chance to read all the posts so this point have already been made. There is a good chance that next year will include a lockout and the collective bargaining agreement will most likely change in the NBA. All this will probably affect rookies salaries coming in and lottery pick winners might not get what they have coming to them this year. In other words if you can be a lottery pick this year it might be a good idea to get in there because next year might not be so lucrative.

GO DUKE!

[geraldsneighbor]

HI,

I realize this is not a John Wall length thread, but I don't have a chance to read all the posts so this point have already been made. There is a good chance that next year will include a lockout and the collective bargaining agreement will most likely change in the NBA. All this will probably affect rookies salaries coming in and lottery pick winners might not get what they have coming to them this year. In other words if you can be a lottery pick this year it might be a good idea to get in there because next year might not be so lucrative.

GO DUKE!

God forbid there is a lockout and the John Wall's of the world might stay two years in college.

[stickdog]

Actually, I can't explain how wrong you are. Wanting Gerald to stay is short-term management, versus long-term. Let's put it this way - Duke basketball does not want to be in the business of having players like Henderson, who are "supposed" to be NBA locks, playing as seniors. It looks bad for all involved and it is not what the top recruits are looking for these days.

Don't get me wrong, any kid that asks me, including UNC guys, I'm telling to stay in school.

It's just the way it is these days.

In that case it's hard to imagine how much Tyler Hansbrough has hurt UNC's basketball program over the past season.

[stickdog]

It actually does hurt a program's image to have players who were considered "automatic" to the NBA to end up hanging around for 4 years. You are completely out of touch if you don't realize that in today's environment. Elite level talent will view that as a question mark for the program and coaches. Just the way it is.

I'm done with this now. There are a lot of delusional people around here. I'm glad Gerald has the opportunity and is taking it. For him and the program.

Let me see if I have this straight. If you declare for the NBA after your junior year and have a good NBA career, you help your college program, but if you declare for the NBA after your senior year and have a good NBA career (like Battier, Duhon or Roy), you hurt your college program because recruits don't measure teams' overall success or teams' players' overall NBA success, but rather if players leave to enjoy NBA success after 3 years or 4?

[KandG]

Let me see if I have this straight. If you declare for the NBA after your junior year and have a good NBA career, you help your college program, but if you declare for the NBA after your senior year and have a good NBA career (like Battier, Duhon or Roy), you hurt your college program because recruits don't measure teams' overall success or teams' players' overall NBA success, but rather if players leave to enjoy NBA success after 3 years or 4?


Roy, Duhon and Battier were not lottery locks (in Duhon's case, not close), and there were many questions about their upside. (Roy surprised a lot of teams who didn't expect him to be the superstar he is now) There was nothing terribly controversial or unusual about them staying their senior year, similar to Hansborough (though Hansborough seems to have hurt his stock considerably by staying).

The original post refers to recruits' perceptions of NBA-ready players with significant upsides deciding to stay despite a likely top 10 or top 15 selection. The reality of today's environment is that a program with too many of those types of players is perceived to be less supportive of a player's development and eventual placement in the league. (for example, if Brand or Jason Williams stayed 4 years; likewise if Ed Davis stays 3 or 4 years at UNC).

[Edouble]

Roy, Duhon and Battier were not lottery locks (in Duhon's case, not close), and there were many questions about their upside. (Roy surprised a lot of teams who didn't expect him to be the superstar he is now) There was nothing terribly controversial or unusual about them staying their senior year, similar to Hansborough (though Hansborough seems to have hurt his stock considerably by staying).

The original post refers to recruits' perceptions of NBA-ready players with significant upsides deciding to stay despite a likely top 10 or top 15 selection. The reality of today's environment is that a program with too many of those types of players is perceived to be less supportive of a player's development and eventual placement in the league. (for example, if Brand or Jason Williams stayed 4 years; likewise if Ed Davis stays 3 or 4 years at UNC).

To nitpick, I would say that Battier was a lottery lock. He was invited to the Greenroom in NY, and could have left as a fairly high pick after his junior year.

[stickdog]

Roy, Duhon and Battier were not lottery locks (in Duhon's case, not close), and there were many questions about their upside. (Roy surprised a lot of teams who didn't expect him to be the superstar he is now) There was nothing terribly controversial or unusual about them staying their senior year, similar to Hansborough (though Hansborough seems to have hurt his stock considerably by staying).

The original post refers to recruits' perceptions of NBA-ready players with significant upsides deciding to stay despite a likely top 10 or top 15 selection. The reality of today's environment is that a program with too many of those types of players is perceived to be less supportive of a player's development and eventual placement in the league. (for example, if Brand or Jason Williams stayed 4 years; likewise if Ed Davis stays 3 or 4 years at UNC).

Name one team that has ever been perceived in a negative light because any of its likely top 15 players with clear NBA talent decided to return for a fourth year of eligibility. IMHO, this contention is borderline ridiculous.

What is true is that extremely few slam dunk consensus top 15 NBA potential recruits ever play their senior years anymore. All Gerald Henderson did was what almost every recent player before him in his position has done. However, whether Henderson declares this or next season is not going to affect any potential recruit's perception of Duke. It's clear that Henderson has always been given every possible chance to succeed and every possible NBA developmental benefit at Duke. It's clear that Henderson has already developed into a NBA caliber prospect. If he stays another season, this will only become more clear. His domination of college basketball would more than make up for any possible additional cachet he would gain from becoming yet another in a long line of unremarkable junior early entry candidates drafted somewhere in the teens or early twenties. So how could it possibly hurt Duke if Henderson, like Battier or Roy, decides to return for his senior season? This seems to be either a misguided attempt to take a measure of solace in the almost certain reality of Henderson's imminent change of scenery or else an understandable overreaction against those who deign to blame Henderson for not desperately swimming against a sweeping tide.

[Jumbo]

Roy, Duhon and Battier were not lottery locks (in Duhon's case, not close), and there were many questions about their upside. (Roy surprised a lot of teams who didn't expect him to be the superstar he is now) There was nothing terribly controversial or unusual about them staying their senior year, similar to Hansborough (though Hansborough seems to have hurt his stock considerably by staying).

The original post refers to recruits' perceptions of NBA-ready players with significant upsides deciding to stay despite a likely top 10 or top 15 selection. The reality of today's environment is that a program with too many of those types of players is perceived to be less supportive of a player's development and eventual placement in the league. (for example, if Brand or Jason Williams stayed 4 years; likewise if Ed Davis stays 3 or 4 years at UNC).

Roy and Battier were both lottery picks. High lottery picks.

[CDu]

Roy and Battier were both lottery picks. High lottery picks.

I believe that you misinterpreted the post. The previous poster was saying they weren't lottery picks after their junior years. The point was to differentiate their decisions to return from others' decisions to return or go pro. Those players had plenty to gain by coming back for their senior year.

[SilkyJ]

Placing all our bets on a spring commitment from two guards that haven't academically cleared is a sign of desperation.


That's not an accurate statement, really. We were very much in the running for Kenny Boynton, and at more than one time were thought to have been in the lead for his services, and he committed over the summer/fall. So we put our eggs in that basket, and once he committed elsewhere we transitioned to looking at Bledsoe and Wall. We did not originally put all our bets on a spring commitment from either of these two players. Both are backup plans, really.

Not to mention, some years you don't go after a player or that many players b/c of the next year's class. And it just so happens that next year's class has several prospects in which we are VERY interested. We have already signed thornton and dawkins, and are very interested in Knight and/or Irving (probably an OR situation) but either way thats 3 guards in 1 class.

Still would nice to have a lil depth for the unexpected foul troubles, injuries, etc. etc.

[Jumbo]

I believe that you misinterpreted the post. The previous poster was saying they weren't lottery picks after their junior years. The point was to differentiate their decisions to return from others' decisions to return or go pro. Those players had plenty to gain by coming back for their senior year.

Whoops -- you're right, I did misread it. Thanks.

[rotogod00]

Henderson projection from ESPN's Chad Ford (from today):

"In a good draft he's a late first round pick. In this draft, he probably lands in the back end of the lottery. Great athlete, but a pretty inefficient player who lacks a killer instinct."

[SilkyJ]

Henderson projection from ESPN's Chad Ford (from today):

"In a good draft he's a late first round pick. In this draft, he probably lands in the back end of the lottery. Great athlete, but a pretty inefficient player who lacks a killer instinct."

That's in line with what I've been thinking in terms of where he'll go, which I guess is what most people are thinking, but the last part about a killer instinct seems out of place. He wanted the ball in his hands when we needed a score, and took and hit a number of big, late game shots including one at wake to tie the game late and another against BC I think in the ACC tourney (coming off a curl, took a little 6 foot baby hook from the left side of the lane), and then also at home against wake when he hit a couple late 3s during their comeback, including a 21 foot fall away with the shot clock winding down...and that's just off the top of my head.

I guess a killer instinct is more than just wanting the ball late, maybe wanting it all the time, but gerald was our go-to guy who had the ball in his hands a lot, and would take it to rack early and often, didn't shy away from contact, and the results when he had the ball were usually good. His instincts, killer and otherwise, seemed to be just find to me...

[BlueintheFace]

That's in line with what I've been thinking in terms of where he'll go, which I guess is what most people are thinking, but the last part about a killer instinct seems out of place. He wanted the ball in his hands when we needed a score, and took and hit a number of big, late game shots including one at wake to tie the game late and another against BC I think in the ACC tourney (coming off a curl, took a little 6 foot baby hook from the left side of the lane), and then also at home against wake when he hit a couple late 3s during their comeback, including a 21 foot fall away with the shot clock winding down...and that's just off the top of my head.

I guess a killer instinct is more than just wanting the ball late, maybe wanting it all the time, but gerald was our go-to guy who had the ball in his hands a lot, and would take it to rack early and often, didn't shy away from contact, and the results when he had the ball were usually good. His instincts, killer and otherwise, seemed to be just find to me...

I don't think the killer instinct line squares with his body of work either, but coming off this March... that rep was bound to emerge. Reputations about heart and killer instinct are made in March more than any other time. Unfortunately, the Belmont game was washed away by the more recent epic failure.

[Sobriquet]

I don't know about Chad Forde. After reading his evaluations, only 4-5 players will go in the lottery, and there are 20 or so guys going in the late first early second.

No in between.

Those numbers do not compute.

As for Gerald, good luck to him.

I know that there are some here who think his game needs some work, but I am not so sure.

Granted, every player would improve more with each additional year in college, but I am not sure the situation was ideal from Hendo's POV. What he really needs to take off is an athletic, pass first PG to run the team and get people the ball in ideal scoring position. We may or may not get one of those next year, but there is some speculation that our lack of Hendo may make us more attractive to said PGs. Maybe G leaving helps, maybe it hurts. Regardless, we don't have one right now.

Also, a burly, low post enforcer would help Hendo tremendously. The kind of guy who keeps his defender honest. As it stands going forward, Duke does not have one of those. Thus, when G drives, the entire opposing D bascially collapses on him.

I see G's dilemma. By the end of the year, the Book on stopping Duke was clear, and not that difficult for top teams. As it currently stands, our roster was not going to change that.

At the end of last year, G was the focus of the opposing Team's D. Jon, while a good player, can be defended one on one. eg, he doesn't require a help defender. A reasonably athletic guy can defend Jon by himself. He might not shut Jon down completely, but Jon's scoring could be kept to a reasonable level. Kyle was similiar, to a lesser extent. He is better at creating his own shot than Jon, from an athletic standpoint, but a quality defender can keep Kyle's production down. Once Kyle enters the paint on a drive help is nice, but also easy to obtain. Also, Kyle didn't really do that enough to warrant any help.

Thus, two of our Big Three could be gaurded by 1 player apiece. Not so the other two players. At the very end of last year, whoever was guarding E-Will, Nolan, Dave, Lance, or Brian basically kept one eye on G. The opposing bigs ignored their guy to stay aware of G. Defenders would routinely slouch off their guy to help on G.

It worked, too. Sure, we won some games, and G had some nice games himself, but it was a recipe next year's team seemed likely to see a lot of.

Simply Put,

Nolan won't beat you.
EWill won't beat you.
Jon might beat you (if he is really on from three land)
Kyle CAN beat you (if he is really on from three land)
Gerald WILL beat you, badly, just playing his game.

So, opposing D's can key on Gerald and take their chances on one of the other guys scoring enough to beat you.

From G's standpoint, why not test the process.

For those glass half full types, also consider:

G is smart to test the process. He gets a bunch of free trips to cool cities where basketball experts can poke holes in his game and tell him what to improve upon (like EVERYBODY doesn't know the answer to that). He will get a good idea of where he stands. He will also find out the draft lottery order. Teams that really like him might get lucky and be in a position to draft a player too good to pass on in the high lottery. Or, G might find himself draft bait for one of the perennial loser teams that everyone wants to avoid.

I think he is gone. I think his private workouts will make scouts drool. A lot of what they have seen out of Gerald so far is based on him playing with no legitimate post threat and without a true, quality PG (JS gamely and valiantly playing out of position does not count as a quality PG). In workouts they will see a freak athlete with solid, and still developing, offensive skills to go along with a kid who can and does play lockdown D. I think some GM or coach, seeing G for the first time, will fall in love. And higher than the late lottery.

But, G might come back. It costs him nothing to explore the process.

[SilkyJ]

I don't think the killer instinct line squares with his body of work either, but coming off this March... that rep was bound to emerge. Reputations about heart and killer instinct are made in March more than any other time. Unfortunately, the Belmont game was washed away by the more recent epic failure.

Ah, excellent point. Amazing how short-sighted people can be...

[JayZee]

I think the inefficient comment is more telling than the killer instinct comment. I was always struck by Jumbo's +/- stats over the course of the season. G never seemed to be near the top of those stats. He is clearly a "loud" player in that it's easy to notice his contributions during the game. But after the game, adjusting for everything, a player like Singler very well may have more of an impact over the outcome of the game. I clearly don't know all the models that the NBA front offices run, but I hope that they grade G out higher than the +/- stats Jumbo tracks.

[KandG]

I don't know about Chad Forde. After reading his evaluations, only 4-5 players will go in the lottery, and there are 20 or so guys going in the late first early second.

No in between.

Those numbers do not compute.




Actually, that is more a function of the huge disparity in talent and perceived impact between the top 2 (or 3 or 4, depending on your inclinations) and everyone else entering the draft. At this point, many scouts really don't know who's going to go to what team from 4 to 20, and several scenarios have NBA teams with high picks (depending on how the lottery balls fall) trading their picks.

A lot of speculation at this point, but there's a strong feeling that the difference between pick 4 and pick 12 or pick 19 really is not that great in this draft, such are the question marks about numerous players. Chad Ford's comments reflect that uncertainty.

[Rudy]

G is smart to test the process. He gets a bunch of free trips to cool cities where basketball experts can poke holes in his game and tell him what to improve upon (like EVERYBODY doesn't know the answer to that). He will get a good idea of where he stands. He will also find out the draft lottery order. Teams that really like him might get lucky and be in a position to draft a player too good to pass on in the high lottery. Or, G might find himself draft bait for one of the perennial loser teams that everyone wants to avoid.

I think he is gone. I think his private workouts will make scouts drool. A lot of what they have seen out of Gerald so far is based on him playing with no legitimate post threat and without a true, quality PG (JS gamely and valiantly playing out of position does not count as a quality PG). In workouts they will see a freak athlete with solid, and still developing, offensive skills to go along with a kid who can and does play lockdown D. I think some GM or coach, seeing G for the first time, will fall in love. And higher than the late lottery.

But, G might come back. It costs him nothing to explore the process.
That's my view of it. The factor unknown to us is how much G enjoys the college experience and would like another year of it. Sure, he can get his degree anytime, but that's not quite the same thing as being #1 gun senior at Duke. If he's there the team will be better than it was this year, which was pretty damned good.

[Sobriquet]

Actually, that is more a function of the huge disparity in talent and perceived impact between the top 2 (or 3 or 4, depending on your inclinations) and everyone else entering the draft. At this point, many scouts really don't know who's going to go to what team from 4 to 20, and several scenarios have NBA teams with high picks (depending on how the lottery balls fall) trading their picks.

A lot of speculation at this point, but there's a strong feeling that the difference between pick 4 and pick 12 or pick 19 really is not that great in this draft, such are the question marks about numerous players. Chad Ford's comments reflect that uncertainty.

I get the bit about the talent disparity. My point was that someone has to be picked from say 6-20. He didn't list anyone in that position, really. This was a lazy analysis by Forde. He wrote up each player based on their intrinsic talent, without taking into account the fact that SOMEONE has to be drafted in each slot.

But yeah, this draft is a real wasteland. After Griffen, it is a complete feces shoot. I am not sold on Rubio in the NBA game, but he is a close second to Griffen. Everyone else could boom or bust, and I wouldn't be shocked, one way or the other. But, I remain convinced that G will shoot up the draft charts as he goes through his private workouts, unless his height/weight have been cooked noticably.

[moonpie23]

He gets a bunch of free trips to cool cities where basketball experts can poke holes in his game and tell him what to improve upon (like EVERYBODY doesn't know the answer to that).

whoa...hang on.....those trips are free???

[Sobriquet]

whoa...hang on.....those trips are free???

Yeah, they changed the rule a few years ago saying that NBA teams could pay the way for Draft hopefuls to come workout. Previously, players had to pay their own way. Now, the teams can pay their way while the kids retain their amateur status. Nice hotel, good meals, etc. Like any high end job interview.

Prior to this rule, kids interviewing for entry level ibanking jobs got a better shake than a kid looking to play proball.

It also encouraged agents to funnell kids money, which cost them their amateur status. Much better deal now, for the kids.

[greybeard]

If I have to hear the term "left-handed G" for the next six-plus months, well ... I won't be happy. G wasn't even "G" until January. Remember how he started the season? And G still has holes in his game that he will work to improve. The point is that Elliot was a very nice role player at the end of the year, and hopefully will progress over the summer. But he will not be G, nor does he have to be. That kind of work takes time, and if Elliot can tighten his ball-handling a bit, learn to go right a little better and be able to knock down open jumpers, that would be major imporvement. Expecting more is just silly, IMHO.

I think that the only thing that Elliot needs to improve in his game is to add diversity to his finishes. Now, it is the same two steps, the first huge, and the same looping delivery of the ball. A germ could time him. He adds diversity to his finishes, which would include a pull up and floater in the lane, neither particularly difficult, and he'll be great.

It he maintains the same finish, whatever else he does to improve his game, shoot better or whatever, won't matter.

BTW, I think the kid is ready to play the point right now; I said so when everybody on this board was hatin on him when he seemed out of place and was getting next to no PT, and I'm saying so again. You give this guy some leeway, and encourage him to study some interesting finishers and play around with what makes their finishes tick, look out.

And, while I agree that comparisons to Henderson are not fair, I think that Elliot has more potential than Gerald to make an overall impact. This year they needed him, first and foremost, and almost exclusively, to help put pressure at the rim; to confront the bigs at the rim--to dunk the thing and occasionally try a sweeping scoup-hook. Next year, hopefully, he'll be encouraged to score the ball in more diverse ways and will figure out how. He is much more comfortable going right than Gerald ever was going left. He is a much better glider, changer of pace, than Gerald is, and I think that he can add lots of different ways to score in his game.

And, and now here's the real kicker, I think that Elliot, like Jon, plays best, is most comfortable, if you give him the ball and let him lead. I think that is where this thing is headed; sorry Jumbo, I know that that will disappoint you, but I believe that Elliot needs to lead and that he will go out and take it, the point position, that is. I also think that that will be very good for Duke.

Hi-Ho Silver, away

[moonpie23]

i agree with you on many of those points. the moves, the speed, the quickness and the desire to take over were pretty obvious. there were many games i thought that if they just let him off the chain it was gonna be ON...

freshman mistakes aside, i think this guy is potentially lethal.

[NSDukeFan]

I think that the only thing that Elliot needs to improve in his game is to add diversity to his finishes. Now, it is the same two steps, the first huge, and the same looping delivery of the ball. A germ could time him. He adds diversity to his finishes, which would include a pull up and floater in the lane, neither particularly difficult, and he'll be great.

It he maintains the same finish, whatever else he does to improve his game, shoot better or whatever, won't matter.

BTW, I think the kid is ready to play the point right now; I said so when everybody on this board was hatin on him when he seemed out of place and was getting next to no PT, and I'm saying so again. You give this guy some leeway, and encourage him to study some interesting finishers and play around with what makes their finishes tick, look out.

And, while I agree that comparisons to Henderson are not fair, I think that Elliot has more potential than Gerald to make an overall impact. This year they needed him, first and foremost, and almost exclusively, to help put pressure at the rim; to confront the bigs at the rim--to dunk the thing and occasionally try a sweeping scoup-hook. Next year, hopefully, he'll be encouraged to score the ball in more diverse ways and will figure out how. He is much more comfortable going right than Gerald ever was going left. He is a much better glider, changer of pace, than Gerald is, and I think that he can add lots of different ways to score in his game.

And, and now here's the real kicker, I think that Elliot, like Jon, plays best, is most comfortable, if you give him the ball and let him lead. I think that is where this thing is headed; sorry Jumbo, I know that that will disappoint you, but I believe that Elliot needs to lead and that he will go out and take it, the point position, that is. I also think that that will be very good for Duke.

Hi-Ho Silver, away

I don't know about Elliot playing the point, he hasn't shown me a lot distributing the ball or leading on the offensive end. I don't have a problem with him guarding the ball handler, but have my doubts about offensively.

To me, the other major thing that differentiates, Elliot and G is strength. At this level, there is quite a bit of contact that is not called when a player is driving to the rim. I think G was strong enough that this didn't affect his path to the basket. I think at this point, this contact keeps Elliot from getting straight to the hoop and makes him take more hook layups instead of lay-ups to the hoop or dunks more often. A summer of weights, especially lower body, may help this.
I look forward to seeing his progress next year.

[CDu]

I don't know about Elliot playing the point, he hasn't shown me a lot distributing the ball or leading on the offensive end. I don't have a problem with him guarding the ball handler, but have my doubts about offensively.

To me, the other major thing that differentiates, Elliot and G is strength. At this level, there is quite a bit of contact that is not called when a player is driving to the rim. I think G was strong enough that this didn't affect his path to the basket. I think at this point, this contact keeps Elliot from getting straight to the hoop and makes him take more hook layups instead of lay-ups to the hoop or dunks more often. A summer of weights, especially lower body, may help this.
I look forward to seeing his progress next year.

I agree with this to a large degree. I definitely didn't see anything last year that suggested Williams should play PG next year. I could see an expanded role on the wing though, giving him more freedom to attack off the dribble. But I don't think tasking him with running the offense is the right idea - much like I don't think Henderson should be running the Duke offense (though the players' skillsets are fairly different).

I think Williams has the athleticism to be an impact player next year. I don't see him being a PG (at least not next year) because it doesn't suit his skillset, but I can see him as an attacking wing. But while I disagree with greybeard on seeing him as a PG, I do agree that developing a more diverse finishing skillset will make a big difference. Last year, if he couldn't get to the rim, he couldn't score. If he develops a runner or a pull-up jumper from 12-15 feet, he can become lethal. I don't think that as easy as greybeard suggests, but hopefully he can do it. And adding some touch from the perimeter would help him on his drives. I also agree with NSDukeFan on the idea that a bit of strength will help, especially on his drives.

[CardinalBlue]

I spoke to Coach Dawkins about G for a little bit yesterday. He said that it's very unlikely that he'll pull out of the draft, since the information they've received is that he'll likely fall within the 8-13 range.

However, he also said that there is a 0% chance that Henderson doesn't come back and finish his degree. As much as I'd like to see G suit up for another year, I found this information encouraging, and wish G the best of luck in the NBA.

[ncexnyc]

I'm not sure why people want to compare G at the end of his junior year to Elliot at the end of his freshman year. That's the old apples vs oranges thing IMO.

If you want to compare the two players look at them from where they were at the end of their freshman year.
G's claim to fame was busting Hasbro's nose and his sports asthma. He showed flashes of great potential, but again IMHO , nowhere near what Elliot showed us during his freshman year.

Elliot will get stronger over the next few years and hopefully his shooting, both from the field and the charity stripe will improve. I believe the kid has every chance to be just as good as G, if not better.

[CDu]

I'm not sure why people want to compare G at the end of his junior year to Elliot at the end of his freshman year. That's the old apples vs oranges thing IMO.

If you want to compare the two players look at them from where they were at the end of their freshman year.
G's claim to fame was busting Hasbro's nose and his sports asthma. He showed flashes of great potential, but again IMHO , nowhere near what Elliot showed us during his freshman year.

Elliot will get stronger over the next few years and hopefully his shooting, both from the field and the charity stripe will improve. I believe the kid has every chance to be just as good as G, if not better.

People want to compare to get a sense of where we'll be as a team next year. I don't think people are making the comparison to rate Williams as a player long-term. They are simply looking for how the team is going to replace Henderson's contributions. Obviously, no single player is going to replicate what Henderson did last year. But Williams is a logical next step in the thought process due to the similar height and athleticism.

If this were a rating of the two players' potential, then I'd agree with you. But since a large part of what is going on here is trying to figure out how we're going to look next year, then it is absolutely relevant to compare Henderson as a junior to Williams as a sophomore. Williams's play as a junior will have no direct bearing on the 2009-2010 team's success.

[Highlander]

I spoke to Coach Dawkins about G for a little bit yesterday. He said that it's very unlikely that he'll pull out of the draft, since the information they've received is that he'll likely fall within the 8-13 range.

However, he also said that there is a 0% chance that Henderson doesn't come back and finish his degree. As much as I'd like to see G suit up for another year, I found this information encouraging, and wish G the best of luck in the NBA.

I find it interesting and encouraging that Dawkins is still involved with Gerald's career, if what he said is indicative of that relation and not just speculation on JD's part. To be on the other side of the country working your own program and take the time to still mentor to guys you recruited who play for rival programs is admirable.

But then, I wouldn't expect anything other than admirable from Coach Dawkins.

[johaad]

I agree with this to a large degree. I definitely didn't see anything last year that suggested Williams should play PG next year. I could see an expanded role on the wing though, giving him more freedom to attack off the dribble. But I don't think tasking him with running the offense is the right idea - much like I don't think Henderson should be running the Duke offense (though the players' skillsets are fairly different).

I think Williams has the athleticism to be an impact player next year. I don't see him being a PG (at least not next year) because it doesn't suit his skillset, but I can see him as an attacking wing. But while I disagree with greybeard on seeing him as a PG, I do agree that developing a more diverse finishing skillset will make a big difference. Last year, if he couldn't get to the rim, he couldn't score. If he develops a runner or a pull-up jumper from 12-15 feet, he can become lethal. I don't think that as easy as greybeard suggests, but hopefully he can do it. And adding some touch from the perimeter would help him on his drives. I also agree with NSDukeFan on the idea that a bit of strength will help, especially on his drives.

Just a question here but doesn't it seem like Elliot wants to play the point? The reason this COULD be is because of an answer he gave to DBP about his dream team. Here is the link.
http://dukeblueplanet.com/blog.asp?bid=8&pid=382

Maybe it is just me reading more into his statement than is actually there but I think he may feel he IS a PG. Now, I do know that he was recruited as a SG and maybe that is what he is. Who knows? I'm done playing Blue Devil's Advocate.

PS: I want G back.

[CDu]

Just a question here but doesn't it seem like Elliot wants to play the point? The reason this COULD be is because of an answer he gave to DBP about his dream team. Here is the link.
http://dukeblueplanet.com/blog.asp?bid=8&pid=382

Maybe it is just me reading more into his statement than is actually there but I think he may feel he IS a PG. Now, I do know that he was recruited as a SG and maybe that is what he is. Who knows? I'm done playing Blue Devil's Advocate.

PS: I want G back.

I wouldn't read too much into it. Both LeBron and Kobe are lead guard/forwards anyway, so Williams wouldn't be a true PG on that hypothetical team either. He'd defend the other team's PG. But either way, I wouldn't read much meaning into that article.

And even if he did/does want to be a PG, that doesn't necessarily mean that he's best suited to be a PG.

[Sobriquet]

I wouldn't read too much into it. Both LeBron and Kobe are lead guard/forwards anyway, so Williams wouldn't be a true PG on that hypothetical team either. He'd defend the other team's PG. But either way, I wouldn't read much meaning into that article.

And even if he did/does want to be a PG, that doesn't necessarily mean that he's best suited to be a PG.

What guard, or any ball player for that matter, doesn't want the ball in his hands all the time?

Heck, McBob probably wanted to be PG, and that didn't work out so great, did it?

The fact is, the vast majority of guards in college were allowed to completely dominate the ball in HS. Back then, they were the best athlete/most skilled player on their team, so they were allowed to dominate the ball. Heck, that was the coach's game plan.

That said, with E-Will's size and athleticism, a move to lead guard would be in his best interests from a professional standpoint (unless he is 6-5). I just am not sure it ever happens, but it darn sure won't next year, I can tell you that much.

[SilkyJ]

Maybe it is just me reading more into his statement than is actually there but I think he may feel he IS a PG. Now, I do know that he was recruited as a SG and maybe that is what he is.

IIRC, he said early last year (like sept/oct-ish before the season started) he was recruited to play both PG and SG, with a little more emphasis on SG.

Of course, the conversation isn't THAT important b/c of our semi-positionless system.

[zingit]

IIRC, he said early last year (like sept/oct-ish before the season started) he was recruited to play both PG and SG, with a little more emphasis on SG.

Of course, the conversation isn't THAT important b/c of our semi-positionless system.

Yeah, he said in a Duke Blue Planet video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPXFEsgMhcc&feature=channel_page) (at the very end) that he'd be playing "point guard/shooting guard."

[johaad]

Yeah, he said in a Duke Blue Planet video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPXFEsgMhcc&feature=channel_page) (at the very end) that he'd be playing "point guard/shooting guard."

Interesting. I was just going on what scout.com said. I am actually really excited about seeing what Elliot has done over the summer to improve his game. Actually, I'm excited about him, Singler, Scheyer, Zoubs, Thomas, Olek, Nolan, and everyone else. I'm liking next year, with or without Henderson.

[greybeard]

By diversity, I mean much more than simply developing a pull up and floater from just inside the lane, although they provide a great lure to get the big-help off balance--hesitate with a flash of the eyes to the rim, and they come, then you go. I'm talking about changing cadence and tempo of final steps and even those preceeding them, and also means and angle of delivery--how you bring it up to shooting, what kind of delivery, the angle you shoot from. Diversity.

We'll see about the point. All your points are valid, but consider this. Once he had a place on the court, and was established there, did anyone look as comfortable in his body when he just caught it and gave it up as Elliot? Dude looked like Sugar Ray when everyone thought Hearns had him--shoulders dropped, knees soft, ribs and spine soft, like a big cat ready to strike. Can move in any direction from that position, ANY, without making an adjustment first. Put that in motion, with the ball, we're talking exceptional possibilities.

No one who played for Duke except Dawkins and Grant has showed me that kind of posture. What do I know?

[CDu]

We'll see about the point. All your points are valid, but consider this. Once he had a place on the court, and was established there, did anyone look as comfortable in his body when he just caught it and gave it up as Elliot? Dude looked like Sugar Ray when everyone thought Hearns had him--shoulders dropped, knees soft, ribs and spine soft, like a big cat ready to strike. Can move in any direction from that position, ANY, without making an adjustment first. Put that in motion, with the ball, we're talking exceptional possibilities.

No one who played for Duke except Dawkins and Grant has showed me that kind of posture. What do I know?

I think you've fallen prey to excessive hyperbole on Williams's posture. But regardless, the problem I have with Williams as a PG is that I don't think he has much comfort in making decisions while in motion. The kid basically caught the ball and either went hard at the rim (with varying degrees of success), or dribbled in place for a few minutes and then passed, or caught it, thought for a minute, and then immediately passed. That screams wing to me.

Being comfortable attacking doesn't make you a PG. A point guard needs to be able to attack off the dribble at the point of attack, but he also needs to be able make dynamic decisions to shoot or pass after committing to the dribble. A PG also needs to see the whole court and understand when to take his own shot and when to set others up. Williams hasn't shown the ability to do these things yet, in my opinion. That's why I think he's best suited to play the wing - where someone else sets him up, and he just has to decide to shoot or drive to the rim.

I'm not saying Williams doesn't have the PG skill set in him, and I'm not saying that he can't develop it even if he doesn't currently have it. But everything I've seen about the kid's game screams wing at this point. I'm not saying "catch and shoot" wing, but wing nonetheless.

[greybeard]

I think you've fallen prey to excessive hyperbole on Williams's posture. But regardless, the problem I have with Williams as a PG is that I don't think he has much comfort in making decisions while in motion. The kid basically caught the ball and either went hard at the rim (with varying degrees of success), or dribbled in place for a few minutes and then passed, or caught it, thought for a minute, and then immediately passed. That screams wing to me.

Being comfortable attacking doesn't make you a PG. A point guard needs to be able to attack off the dribble at the point of attack, but he also needs to be able make dynamic decisions to shoot or pass after committing to the dribble. A PG also needs to see the whole court and understand when to take his own shot and when to set others up. Williams hasn't shown the ability to do these things yet, in my opinion. That's why I think he's best suited to play the wing - where someone else sets him up, and he just has to decide to shoot or drive to the rim.

I'm not saying Williams doesn't have the PG skill set in him, and I'm not saying that he can't develop it even if he doesn't currently have it. But everything I've seen about the kid's game screams wing at this point. I'm not saying "catch and shoot" wing, but wing nonetheless.

If you take out the "everything" I'd pretty much agree with you. I do not think he had much in the way of choice this year. Duke desparately needed pressure at the rim which meant Gerald, Kyle, and, in the latter stages, Elliot. I think he was essentially following orders that fit with the strategy that K deployed when he went small with Elliot starting.

We've had this discussion about posture. If you can move up, down, back, forward, left, right, without first adjusting, that is my definition of perfect posture for movement. If you want to be forceful, there are other preferred postures. It is extremely rare to see someone as ready to move as Elliot showed in those moments I speak of, when he was catching with no pressure and just tossing back to Jon on the point. Like I said, a Sugar Ray, a martial artist, a Grant Hill, a Johnny Dawkins. Not upright, slightly slouched, arms hanging, knees soft, torso soft, eyes soft--black belts train for years to get where this kid is, imo.

If Elliott attacked full bore as often as he did without diversity to get to the rim with force and was not under directions I should be disappointed, and think that you might well be correct that he is a ways away. If I were him (can't tell you what I'd give for that to be so), I would have made different choices on many occasions when he attacked and knew he was going to be met at the rim by one of the other team's bigs. I believe that he would have too, except that K needed those attacks. We'll see.

[CDu]

If you take out the "everything" I'd pretty much agree with you. I do not think he had much in the way of choice this year. Duke desparately needed pressure at the rim which meant Gerald, Kyle, and, in the latter stages, Elliot. I think he was essentially following orders that fit with the strategy that K deployed when he went small with Elliot starting.

We've had this discussion about posture. If you can move up, down, back, forward, left, right, without first adjusting, that is my definition of perfect posture for movement. If you want to be forceful, there are other preferred postures. It is extremely rare to see someone as ready to move as Elliot showed in those moments I speak of, when he was catching with no pressure and just tossing back to Jon on the point. Like I said, a Sugar Ray, a martial artist, a Grant Hill, a Johnny Dawkins. Not upright, slightly slouched, arms hanging, knees soft, torso soft, eyes soft--black belts train for years to get where this kid is, imo.

If Elliott attacked full bore as often as he did without diversity to get to the rim with force and was not under directions I should be disappointed, and think that you might well be correct that he is a ways away. If I were him (can't tell you what I'd give for that to be so), I would have made different choices on many occasions when he attacked and knew he was going to be met at the rim by one of the other team's bigs. I believe that he would have too, except that K needed those attacks. We'll see.

Again, I think you're overstating things. I think we've had several guys with that sort of athleticism. But that's not really relevant to the point.

I agreed with you that Williams is good at attacking the rim. But none of the platitudes you've sent his way in your last few posts suggests he's capable of playing PG. That was my point. He's certainly athletic and he can go to the rim, but he doesn't have (or at least he hasn't yet shown) the decision-making to be a PG.

As for him following directions by not passing off the dribble, I'm pretty sure that's faulty logic as well. Our offense needed guys to penetrate the defense and create either for themselves or for others. If Williams was comfortable driving, drawing, and dishing to others, I'm sure Coach K would have been ecstatic. I can almost guarantee you that Coach K wouldn't say "don't pass the ball to an open man off the dribble" to a kid who was capable of doing it.

[greybeard]

Again, I think you're overstating things. I think we've had several guys with that sort of athleticism. But that's not really relevant to the point.

I agreed with you that Williams is good at attacking the rim. But none of the platitudes you've sent his way in your last few posts suggests he's capable of playing PG. That was my point. He's certainly athletic and he can go to the rim, but he doesn't have (or at least he hasn't yet shown) the decision-making to be a PG.

As for him following directions by not passing off the dribble, I'm pretty sure that's faulty logic as well. Our offense needed guys to penetrate the defense and create either for themselves or for others. If Williams was comfortable driving, drawing, and dishing to others, I'm sure Coach K would have been ecstatic. I can almost guarantee you that Coach K wouldn't say "don't pass the ball to an open man off the dribble" to a kid who was capable of doing it.

You used the word "athleticism", I never did. I said he had athletic smarts, understands, knows how to carry himself, so he can move in all directions. I thought as an athlete he was too predictable, way too predictable, and I don't see him as either an overwhelming leaper aka G or as overwhelmingly powerful aka JWill. He is quick and fast and rangey and knows how to use his body in extraordinary ways. He needs to get out of that lefty predictability mode; he needs to focus on that.


I think that K needed Elliot to finish at the rim; did not want him laying it off, did not want him finesing a finish; he wanted him to draw fouls on bigs or dunk it. That's what he tried to do almost everytime he got inside the defense and I believe that he did so because he was told to. Who in the five spot was he going to pass it to? K didn't want any dump offs and neither E nor G nor S did anything but bring it hard. Oh, maybe once or twice a game somebody dumped it and the world was dumpfounded.

What it takes to bring your body into a position ready for action the way Elliot does is a special kind of genuis. You don't play defense the way he does without the same kind of intellligence. Grant didn't, and Elliot doesn't, at least that is my belief.

As far as creating, you CDU are making it into something mystical. It ain't. You have some bigs who occupy attention, and earn doubles if they get it, then there's space to fool with, somebody comes and MPII is open, a more seasoned Lance is open, a Singler is open, you dump it. You have Jon and no 2 on the wings, or Singler, and people need to stay at home. Let him roam out there in space, well, I can see it.

Like I said when everybody was talking about how awkward and lost Elliot seemed out on the court early in the season, he wasn't lost, he was handcuffed. They put him out to stay and he was spectacular, even with the constraints he was under on offense. I think that he presses Jon for the 1 spot and that if this team rebounds as I think it might, it runs. And, if it runs, don't be surprised if it ain't Elliot in the middle. I won't be, just like I wasn't surprised when he became a key cog in this team in the last part of the year, making powerfully few mistakes with the ball. Powerfully few when everyone had been saying he was awkward and lost. Next year he makes plays, lots of them I think.

I see a terrific leader in him, with an ability to score the ball from the point in the manner of the great point guards the ACC have become famous for. Then again, he could be a two. You're pretty darn sharp CDU; I'm not mad at your take; just have a different one.

[blueprofessor]

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=544331

Interesting re Hendo and confidence and future...many familiar names and their
prospects.
Best--Blueprofessor:)

[Sobriquet]

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=544331

Interesting re Hendo and confidence and future...many familiar names and their
prospects.
Best--Blueprofessor:)

Good read, thanks for the post.

He summed up G perfectly. I personally believe that G could ultimately be one of the best players from this draft. Another poster mentioned that G reminded him of D-Wade. G lacks Wade's elite skils, but I think a lot of that is Wade believing he is the best player in the game. Not that he is, but he is in that elite class and really believes in his abilities.

If G had that self assurance, he could be a stupendous player. He could ultimately end up as Duke's best pro, (Due entirely to the tragic injury that hampered GHill who could have been in the GOAT conversation but for his ankle's implosion).

Seriously. GHill could be the guy K tells recruits they could be like, starting in a few years.

Heck, a ROY wouldn't really surprise me since in the 8-13 range he will end up with a team where he can put up good numbers AND make a difference. There are some kids who will go ahead of him that need a few years in the NBA to really get their games going, and poor Blake Griffen will get a rude awakening against NBA bigs while probably playing for a very bad team.

As good as G was last year, his best playing days are ahead of him. And I mean days where he is light years better than what we saw, and that is really saying something.

[blueprofessor]

Good read, thanks for the post.

He summed up G perfectly. I personally believe that G could ultimately be one of the best players from this draft. Another poster mentioned that G reminded him of D-Wade. G lacks Wade's elite skils, but I think a lot of that is Wade believing he is the best player in the game. Not that he is, but he is in that elite class and really believes in his abilities.

If G had that self assurance, he could be a stupendous player. He could ultimately end up as Duke's best pro, (Due entirely to the tragic injury that hampered GHill who could have been in the GOAT conversation but for his ankle's implosion).

Seriously. GHill could be the guy K tells recruits they could be like, starting in a few years.

Heck, a ROY wouldn't really surprise me since in the 8-13 range he will end up with a team where he can put up good numbers AND make a difference. There are some kids who will go ahead of him that need a few years in the NBA to really get their games going, and poor Blake Griffen will get a rude awakening against NBA bigs while probably playing for a very bad team.

As good as G was last year, his best playing days are ahead of him. And I mean days where he is light years better than what we saw, and that is really saying something.

I love your confidence in Hendo! His athleticism cannot be developed; confidence and required additional skills can be.You may be right...
Best--Blueprofessor

[Kedsy]

Good read, thanks for the post.

He summed up G perfectly. I personally believe that G could ultimately be one of the best players from this draft. Another poster mentioned that G reminded him of D-Wade. G lacks Wade's elite skils, but I think a lot of that is Wade believing he is the best player in the game. Not that he is, but he is in that elite class and really believes in his abilities.

If G had that self assurance, he could be a stupendous player. He could ultimately end up as Duke's best pro, (Due entirely to the tragic injury that hampered GHill who could have been in the GOAT conversation but for his ankle's implosion).

Seriously. GHill could be the guy K tells recruits they could be like, starting in a few years.

Heck, a ROY wouldn't really surprise me since in the 8-13 range he will end up with a team where he can put up good numbers AND make a difference. There are some kids who will go ahead of him that need a few years in the NBA to really get their games going, and poor Blake Griffen will get a rude awakening against NBA bigs while probably playing for a very bad team.

As good as G was last year, his best playing days are ahead of him. And I mean days where he is light years better than what we saw, and that is really saying something.

G's a good player, but I think you're really overrating his pro opportunities. At his height (very short to play wing in the NBA) and with his decent-but-not-great handle and shooting ability, he won't be starting next year (no matter who drafts him) and probably won't even play significant minutes. Almost everyone in the League is a great athlete, so G's biggest strength won't stand out so much. The list of 6'4" athletes in recent years who are neither PGs nor great shooters but who make it big in the NBA is very short. In fact, it might be nobody.

I'm not denigrating, I'm just trying to stay realistic. G won't be ROY. He'll be lucky to turn into a solid rotation player at the next level. I suppose it's possible, but it's highly unlikely he'll ever be a star.

[Sobriquet]

G's a good player, but I think you're really overrating his pro opportunities. At his height (very short to play wing in the NBA) and with his decent-but-not-great handle and shooting ability, he won't be starting next year (no matter who drafts him) and probably won't even play significant minutes. Almost everyone in the League is a great athlete, so G's biggest strength won't stand out so much. The list of 6'4" athletes in recent years who are neither PGs nor great shooters but who make it big in the NBA is very short. In fact, it might be nobody.

I'm not denigrating, I'm just trying to stay realistic. G won't be the ROY. He'll be lucky to turn into a solid rotation player at the next level. It's highly unlikely he'll ever be a star.

I think a lot of people here underestimate G's shooting ability. He isn't a great outside shooter, but he is at least capable from three land. When he rose up from 3 land, I was hopeful, instead of cringing as with some other players on our roster. And his midrange game is a lost art at the next level. And his defender got constant help last year because we frequently had only 3 legitimate scoring options on the floor, and sometimes only 2 options on the floor.

Finally, I still don't think we have seen the best of Gerald for 2 simple reasons.

Point Guard
Post Player

He never got to play with one of either. Deng got huge burn playing with Duhon, the last (and one of the most underrated) of the great Duke points, and with Sheldon down low. We often bemoan his early exit, but maybe he had seen in practice that Duke lacked the PG to help him excell on a going forward basis since CDu graduated.

GHill got burn along side Hurley, Laetner, and Parks. In his last year, GHill became the Point Forward. And he was special in a way that schools only get once in a genaration.

G is a shooting guard who was forced to play SF, and some PF, while at Duke university. He never had a (very) good (to say nothing of great) PG to get him the ball. There was never a burly low post bruiser to shield defenders or to keep a defender from sliding over to play help D. Never.

Put it another way. Take Ellington out at UNC and put Gerald in a situation with Ty Lawson to get him the ball and Tyler Hans to draw attention in the low post.

Hendo's numbers might be about the same, but might be better, but his effeciency would be through the roof.

Most guards have someone to help set them up for scoring opportunities. Everything G ever got he had to get himself. Heck, we didn't even have a reliable ally-ooper to feed a guy with G's obvious skill for such a move.

Essentially, we haven't seen the best of G because we haven't seen him in a setting condusive to him excelling.

Which is probably one of the reasons he is leaving. None of what I said above is likely to change with him on the team (I don't think Wall would consider us with G in place because of the lack of MPG available).

[ice-9]

Nice points!

I always thought G was going to be like a Dahntay in the NBA, but your post gives me pause. You just might be right.

[yancem]

Nice points!

I always thought G was going to be like a Dahntay in the NBA, but your post gives me pause. You just might be right.

Also, don't discount Henderson's ability to get to the line. He's not as big or physical as Maggette but goes to the hole equally as hard and is going to get fouled quite a bit.

[CDu]

I think that K needed Elliot to finish at the rim; did not want him laying it off, did not want him finesing a finish; he wanted him to draw fouls on bigs or dunk it. That's what he tried to do almost everytime he got inside the defense and I believe that he did so because he was told to. Who in the five spot was he going to pass it to? K didn't want any dump offs and neither E nor G nor S did anything but bring it hard. Oh, maybe once or twice a game somebody dumped it and the world was dumpfounded.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the PG assessment, but I can't let this paragraph by you slide.

Clearly you didn't watch enough Duke basketball. I remember numerous times Singler, Scheyer, Smith, and Henderson passed off the drive to a cutter or to Thomas or McClure around the basket. What you are suggest (that Coach K specifically DID NOT WANT his wings to pass off the dribble) is absurd, in my opinion, and not supported by the game play. And given that the other wings DID frequently pass off the drive and Williams did NOT, I think he's not suited to creating for others off the dribble.

It's not mystical to be able to create off the dribble for others. But it's not a given, either. It is a skill that takes a lot of practice. If it was easy, every quick wing player could do it. But it's not easy. And I haven't seen it out of Williams (at least not yet).

[Kedsy]

I think a lot of people here underestimate G's shooting ability. He isn't a great outside shooter, but he is at least capable from three land. When he rose up from 3 land, I was hopeful, instead of cringing as with some other players on our roster. And his midrange game is a lost art at the next level. And his defender got constant help last year because we frequently had only 3 legitimate scoring options on the floor, and sometimes only 2 options on the floor.

Finally, I still don't think we have seen the best of Gerald for 2 simple reasons.

Point Guard
Post Player

He never got to play with one of either. Deng got huge burn playing with Duhon, the last (and one of the most underrated) of the great Duke points, and with Sheldon down low. We often bemoan his early exit, but maybe he had seen in practice that Duke lacked the PG to help him excell on a going forward basis since CDu graduated.

GHill got burn along side Hurley, Laetner, and Parks. In his last year, GHill became the Point Forward. And he was special in a way that schools only get once in a genaration.

G is a shooting guard who was forced to play SF, and some PF, while at Duke university. He never had a (very) good (to say nothing of great) PG to get him the ball. There was never a burly low post bruiser to shield defenders or to keep a defender from sliding over to play help D. Never.

Put it another way. Take Ellington out at UNC and put Gerald in a situation with Ty Lawson to get him the ball and Tyler Hans to draw attention in the low post.

Hendo's numbers might be about the same, but might be better, but his effeciency would be through the roof.

Most guards have someone to help set them up for scoring opportunities. Everything G ever got he had to get himself. Heck, we didn't even have a reliable ally-ooper to feed a guy with G's obvious skill for such a move.

Essentially, we haven't seen the best of G because we haven't seen him in a setting condusive to him excelling.

Which is probably one of the reasons he is leaving. None of what I said above is likely to change with him on the team (I don't think Wall would consider us with G in place because of the lack of MPG available).

Your make mostly good points about the college game, but not (IMO) about the pro game. First of all the NBA line is 2 feet further out and G can't hit that shot, plain and simple. He may get there eventually, but it will take a year or more of hard work before he does (if he ever does).

I agree G's college numbers probably would have been better if he'd played with a Lawson-type PG and a talented C, but what does that have to do with his pro potential? What will keep G back is (a) he is too short for the position he plays (NBA wings are 6'6" to 6'9" and he's maybe 6'4"); and (b) he doesn't handle or shoot well enough to make up for his lack of height. No quantity or quality of his college teammates will change either of those things, so I don't really see the relevance of your points to how he will perform as a pro.

You don't seem to be taking into account that the NBA game is completely different than the college game in myriad ways. At the next level the people defending G will be mostly be just as athletic as he is and will be 2 to 5 inches taller, so I don't think the lack of a double team is going to make that much of a difference.

Finally, from what Luol Deng has said in multiple interviews, your suggestion that he may have left Duke because of his evaluation of his future Duke teammates is not correct.

[greybeard]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the PG assessment, but I can't let this paragraph by you slide.

Clearly you didn't watch enough Duke basketball. I remember numerous times Singler, Scheyer, Smith, and Henderson passed off the drive to a cutter or to Thomas or McClure around the basket. What you are suggest (that Coach K specifically DID NOT WANT his wings to pass off the dribble) is absurd, in my opinion, and not supported by the game play. And given that the other wings DID frequently pass off the drive and Williams did NOT, I think he's not suited to creating for others off the dribble.

It's not mystical to be able to create off the dribble for others. But it's not a given, either. It is a skill that takes a lot of practice. If it was easy, every quick wing player could do it. But it's not easy. And I haven't seen it out of Williams (at least not yet).

To whom did they dish for finishes. Certainly not Zoobs or Lance more than once or twice a game. That would leave eachother. How many dishes did G give to Singler? To Eliot? To John? Singler got inside he did not give it up, maybe on rare occasions and then it was to one of the bigs, whom you have to admit scored sparringly at best. You, CDU, are dreaming.

Gerald, Singler, and Eliot were told that if they could get near the rim to finish strong. Period. That is what they did. If they didn't finish hard, they didn't get near the rim. Occasionally, Singler would finese a bit, Gerald once or twice.

You cannot win basketball games consistently unless the other team's bigs, particularly if they are talented offensively, do not have to guard the basket and work hard doing so, and do not draw fouls. At some point in the season, K decided to table the pass-penetration part of the offense. Zoubs, like McLure set screens and offensive rebounded. If he touched it off a pass, he got rid of it immediately; never looked at the basket, same as McClure.

Duke needed the attack at the basket and Elliot's insertion into the starting line-up coincided, or nearly so, with Duke's having given up on pass-penetration to Z and L as one means it. Then, it was strickly off the dribble with dribble penetrators coming hard and high and down. that was how they played if they could; when they couldn't, they lost. K could have posted Singler, as he had the year before, and gotten points at the rim, drawing-foul type points in globs, but he chose not to. I have my theories about why he didn't opt for that, but I'd get dinged again.

Didn;'t come back to argue, just for a drop in visit, although I have to say CDU, I do love it so. Bye, dude, catch up with you whenever.

[Kedsy]

He never got to play with one of either. Deng got huge burn playing with Duhon, the last (and one of the most underrated) of the great Duke points, and with Sheldon down low. We often bemoan his early exit, but maybe he had seen in practice that Duke lacked the PG to help him excell on a going forward basis since CDu graduated.

GHill got burn along side Hurley, Laetner, and Parks. In his last year, GHill became the Point Forward. And he was special in a way that schools only get once in a genaration.


Just to emphasize my point about height, you're comparing G to Deng and GHill, but Deng is 6'8" or 6'9" and GHill is 6'8". Dahntay Jones and Corey Maggette are both 6'6".

For college comparisons, these are the Duke players G compares to (although Deng was more of a rebounder and GHill had a much better handle). For NBA comparisons, however, none of them would have had nearly the success they had if they were 6'4" like G. It's really a different world.

[Kedsy]

Gerald, Singler, and Eliot were told that if they could get near the rim to finish strong. Period.

How do you know what they were told?

[CDu]

To whom did they dish for finishes. Certainly not Zoobs or Lance more than once or twice a game. That would leave eachother. How many dishes did G give to Singler? To Eliot? To John? Singler got inside he did not give it up, maybe on rare occasions and then it was to one of the bigs, whom you have to admit scored sparringly at best. You, CDU, are dreaming.

First of all, once or twice a game is a LOT in a sport where 3-4 assists is a high number, and when we didn't have that many successful drives per game to begin with. But to answer your question: when our guys were successfully able to get into the lane but met resistance, they often passed (at least the ones who were capable of it). Williams was the only guy who didn't seem to do that.


Gerald, Singler, and Eliot were told that if they could get near the rim to finish strong. Period. That is what they did. If they didn't finish hard, they didn't get near the rim. Occasionally, Singler would finese a bit, Gerald once or twice.

Gee, I didn't realize you had such intimate knowledge of what Coach K told his players. It's shocking that they would make those passes we described in the previous paragraphs (even once or twice a game) when Coach K specifically told them not to do so, huh? It's almost as if they were never actually told to not pass if the option was available. That would be a much more logical explanation, don't you think?

There's no logical reason why Coach K would tell players to specifically not create easy scoring opportunities when they're there. I honestly can't understand why you'd have come to such a conclusion. I'm not intending to be rude at all - it just baffles me why you'd come to that conclusion.

[greybeard]

listen CDU, if you want to create receiving options for a big off a guy driving to the basket you structure it. Every team in the ACC did but one, that would be Duke. Occasionally, once or twice a game, one could tell that a "play" was actually called to get the ball to McClure or Lance to finish, I believe even to Z one time in the second half of the season.

When one of the three attackers of the rim passed to another interior player, with the possible exception of Singler a few times to Lance, there was no finish possible; it was just a save-my-behind pass. How come every other team in the ACC got points at the rim from bigs off dribble penetration and how come every other team got many more layups and pull ups then Duke off of dribble penetration. A matter of individual style? I don't think so.

There is a difference between being told, "if you penetrate and can get to the rim you get there hard," which I believe was the directive to Elliot, and being told you may not pass if you can't get there, which is what you infer from what I said. Elliot's mission was to make the bigs on the other team work at the rim and foul. He got to the rim successfully a fair amount but got more than his share blocked (I have to say so did Gerald and even Singler). Elliot was not good at drawing fouls because, as I said at the outset, "a germ could time him coming to the rim." Gerald and Singler had a very nice finish off a difficult (shallow angle) bank while going toward the side end of the backboard as an option to getting to the rim. I happen to think that K did not want that from Elliot, if he had such a shot in his arsenal (if he didn't have that shot and the others did, how come?)

I think that K got exactly what he wanted from Elliot, which was for Elliot to make the other team's bigs work and in the process score some points. Elliot did exactly that. He also wanted him to draw fouls which for the reasons I've articulated he couldn't. Except for the big three, who had reasonably free range (Singler the freest of all), the offensive play of the rest of the Duke players was extremely restricted, imo. Everyone had a very defined role. Of course they could diverge from it but only on a "must" basis. Lance was a tad more adventuresome, and perhaps the others were just being overly cautious.

Anyway, if Duke was looking to score off a dribble dish they were ridiculously bad at it, I think we both can agree on that. I don't think they were trying and that that was on purpose. You think that they didn't have the horses.

Like I said, I'm not hatin on your view, just don't hold to it. Yeah I know, you're going to come back and explain how no one could sanely hold to the views I espouse. To that I say as I began, "Quack."

[Edouble]

Which is probably one of the reasons he is leaving. None of what I said above is likely to change with him on the team (I don't think Wall would consider us with G in place because of the lack of MPG available).

I disagree with your argument about G's abilities juxtaposed against our lack of a stud PG and post man, but I can see your reasoning clearly enough and I appreciate your side of things.

I can't disagree more with this last paragraph though. If Wall and G were on the same team, I don't think either one would get in the way of each other's minutes--just like how Shane and Jason Williams didn't really get in the way of each other's minutes. They would be playing two very different positions, and would most likely be two of the best three or four players on the team. You might make a point about the availability of shots per game, but I can't see either interfering with the other's minutes per game.

[ice-9]

Just to emphasize my point about height, you're comparing G to Deng and GHill, but Deng is 6'8" or 6'9" and GHill is 6'8". Dahntay Jones and Corey Maggette are both 6'6".

For college comparisons, these are the Duke players G compares to (although Deng was more of a rebounder and GHill had a much better handle). For NBA comparisons, however, none of them would have had nearly the success they had if they were 6'4" like G. It's really a different world.

I appreciate the points you make about height, but you've overemphasized them. There are many other factors that decide athletic advantage...wingspan, explosiveness, vertical, body control, etc. It's not just about height.

If your argument holds true, then 6'4 DWade, 6'0 Jameer Nelson, 5'9 Nate Robinson, 6'0 CP3 and 6'3 Ben Gordon should be riding the pine instead of playing prominent roles for their teams.

G might be good in the NBA or he might be bad, we shall see, but it's not valid to point to his height and immediately conclude he's doomed to mediocrity. There are plenty of counter-examples that refute that supposition.

[CDu]

Anyway, if Duke was looking to score off a dribble dish they were ridiculously bad at it, I think we both can agree on that. I don't think they were trying and that that was on purpose. You think that they didn't have the horses.

I'd argue that Coach K wouldn't suggest that our guards not pass unless they weren't good at it. (I'd also argue that he made no such directive anyway, but neither one of us can prove that.) But either way, the fact that Williams didn't pass (whether he was asked not to do so because he wasn't good at it, or whether he just didn't do it because he wasn't comfortable doing it) is why I think he's not suited to be a PG. When Williams attacked the basket, he had one thing in mind - trying to score himself. That's not the game of a PG. You need to look to score, obviously, but you have to be ready to drive and dish and to set up others.

[Edouble]

I appreciate the points you make about height, but you've overemphasized them. There are many other factors that decide athletic advantage...wingspan, explosiveness, vertical, body control, etc. It's not just about height.

If your argument holds true, then 6'4 DWade, 6'0 Jameer Nelson, 5'9 Nate Robinson, 6'0 CP3 and 6'3 Ben Gordon should be riding the pine instead of playing prominent roles for their teams.

G might be good in the NBA or he might be bad, we shall see, but it's not valid to point to his height and immediately conclude he's doomed to mediocrity. There are plenty of counter-examples that refute that supposition.

I'm sure it occurred to you that three of the five players you mentioned are point guards. 6' to 6'3" is a pretty common height range for successful point guards in the league and despite the occassional Magics, Pennys, and Livingstons, it probably will be in the future.

Wade is an elite player, and one of the best in the league. His skill set is phenominal. Charles Barkley was 6'4" too, but that would be a poor argument for supposing that David McClure, who is a few inches taller, could be a successful power forward in the pros. Ben Gordon, likewise, can do so many things that G can't do yet.

I see G as sort of like a shorter Vince Carter or Corey Magette. He's very strong and his athleticism is high even for the pros. But if either VC or Magette were a few inches shorter, like G, their style of play would be seriously handicapped in the NBA.

[turnandburn55]

If your argument holds true, then 6'4 DWade, 6'0 Jameer Nelson, 5'9 Nate Robinson, 6'0 CP3 and 6'3 Ben Gordon should be riding the pine instead of playing prominent roles for their teams.

G might be good in the NBA or he might be bad, we shall see, but it's not valid to point to his height and immediately conclude he's doomed to mediocrity. There are plenty of counter-examples that refute that supposition.

Asked and answered already, your honor. The point being made is not "You can't succeed if you're 6'4" or shorter" it's "Guys with G's skillset rarely succeed at his height". You successfully made his point for him by naming guys with a different game, namely the ability to put the ball on the floor and take the opponent off the dribble.

If G developed his handle better, then yes, I believe he could do it in the NBA (which is why I think he should play another year)... but right now I'm reluctant to believe he will.

[Duke #33]

Here(http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Miss-You-Gerald-Henderson-Where-Duke-stereotyp;_ylt=AkmDi9eOgyK4X3.k19Rbw2fevbYF?urn=nc aab,160396) is an article about Henderson and Duke stereotypes.

[greybeard]

I'd argue that Coach K wouldn't suggest that our guards not pass unless they weren't good at it. (I'd also argue that he made no such directive anyway, but neither one of us can prove that.) But either way, the fact that Williams didn't pass (whether he was asked not to do so because he wasn't good at it, or whether he just didn't do it because he wasn't comfortable doing it) is why I think he's not suited to be a PG. When Williams attacked the basket, he had one thing in mind - trying to score himself. That's not the game of a PG. You need to look to score, obviously, but you have to be ready to drive and dish and to set up others.

If a team does not attack the rim hard and make the opponents bigs, especially those good on offense work on defense, it has no chance. The best case scenerio is that you get them in foul trouble.

The directive was: if you can get to the basket, get there and go high and hard. That is what S, G, and then when he played E did. Period. Otherwise, there was no game at the rim, once Duke abandoned pass-penetration as a feature of its offense which as I've said coincided with E's insertion to the lineup.

"Any chance Liet. Caffy said screw it, the old man doesn't know what he is talking about." "Son, in the Marines, you follow orders or people die."

E was not the only one who didn't dish, G and S (he maybe once or twice a game) didn't either, because there was no one diving the lanes that opened on the drive because that was not part of the offense. If people were not rolling to the rim it was because they were told to do something else. If you are driving the lane and bigs are even a shading a tad to help it is a nothing play made on every school yard in the World to hit the shader's made who then has an edge on finishing. Duke didn't have that in its arsenal. You disagree?

There usually was one time in each game, usually in the second half, when someone drove, and McClure ended up with a layup, occasionally that someone was Lance. One time. Maybe Singler when he was in trouble would be able to cobble together another.

People said that E didn't belong on the court, didn't know where to go, didn't know how to handle himself, until rumors started that he was talking to Dawkins and he was starting. No one on the Duke team looked more comfortable in his skin passing and catching then E; no one. You're telling me he don't know how to make a shovel or hook pass? For real?

He's smart enough to stay in the jock of the best of the best throwing every kind of offensive move imaginable at him but he don't know how to pass the ball? He can dribble past people and shoot to the rim and have the most classically flawless finish imaginable (predictable though it may be) and he can't see an edge or a seem to hit a teammate who has some space if that teammate's man was moving to help AND THAT TEAMMATE WAS MOVING TO RECEIVE AND FINISH?

Come on, there were no passes because the drivers were the inside game, and Elliot was principal among them. His man often wandered because Elliot wasn't to shoot and because a big would be waiting to help with no concern of a lay up. The guy guarding McClure or Z had to stay home because they were setting screens for shooters. E was the guy off whom the help came and his job was to get to the rim, no ifs, ands or buts.

This was a decision made mid season when a guy who had barely played was given monster minutes. Makes sense to keep his job simple and makes sense for him to attack the rim. Except against Wake and UNC, worked pretty well, don't you think.

Your thesis about E is the same one which had him as a lost soul on the court whose small platform background made him unready for ACC play. That was a bunch of bull, and I said so at the time.

You might be right about the point, but I suggest you not pigeon-hole him on what you saw last year.

G, in my opinion, is an entirely different type ballplayer (did I ever tell you he reminds me of David Thompson). IMO, if E reaches anyone near G's stature as a player, it will be for a much more well rounded game that includes being integral to creating opportunities for others.

[ice-9]

I'm sure it occurred to you that three of the five players you mentioned are point guards. 6' to 6'3" is a pretty common height range for successful point guards in the league and despite the occassional Magics, Pennys, and Livingstons, it probably will be in the future.

Wade is an elite player, and one of the best in the league. His skill set is phenominal. Charles Barkley was 6'4" too, but that would be a poor argument for supposing that David McClure, who is a few inches taller, could be a successful power forward in the pros. Ben Gordon, likewise, can do so many things that G can't do yet.

I see G as sort of like a shorter Vince Carter or Corey Magette. He's very strong and his athleticism is high even for the pros. But if either VC or Magette were a few inches shorter, like G, their style of play would be seriously handicapped in the NBA.


Nate Robinson's effective position on the Knicks is SG. So it's 2 out of 5. :) Also, 6'0 is considered short for an NBA point guard (in the same way 6'4 is considered short for an SG), and I actually considered listing CP3 at 5'11 as I've seen a number of sources do it.

The real point here is that height is simply not a very important variable. I.e. we can't look at Zoubek's height and think, "We have an elite center!" It's obviously more about the other stuff.

As to what "stuff" G has...well, like I said, we'll see. He's a very good defender so he'll see some playing time based on that. He is "only" 6'4 but he shoots at the height of his jump, which is very high to begin with, so his effective jumpshooting height is quite good. G may be average to below average from long range, but that doesn't mean he can't score as he is accurate midrange. He may not have a PG like handle, but he's shown he can penetrate to the basket (handling and penetrating are two different skills to me...e.g. Paulus can handle, but he cannot penetrate). This season G did a great job passing out to the open man after drawing the double team, whether from the dribble drive or the iso play.

G is projected to go 8-13 in the draft and I'd like to think he's drafted there for a reason. NBA scouting guys tend to know more about the game than we do. :) G may or may not be a good NBA player; like I said, I always thought of him as a Dahntay level player - i.e. a potential starter but ultimately a role player - so we shall see.

But IMO height is one of the worst arguments to make about a prospect's ability to succeed or fail. It's a footnote or a sentence at best in a scouting report -- never the thesis.

[BlueintheFace]

But IMO height is one of the worst arguments to make about a prospect's ability to succeed or fail. It's a footnote or a sentence at best in a scouting report -- never the thesis.

Well that's not quite true. The FIRST question asked is "what position will he play in the NBA and height is one of the most important considerations in answering this question.

For example, a scouting report on Kyle Singler will start off labeling him as an "NBA SF" despite the fact that Singler has never even played that position in his life. A big reason why is his height.

Or, Dejuan Blair. There is no arguing that he plays the center position in college. It doesn't matter what his skill set is though, his evaluation as an NBA talent will revolve around his potential as an NBA PF only and that is because of his height.

A prospect's height often pigeonhole's him in to a position that the scouts use as a basis for evaluation. Of course there are exceptions to this and many prospects are evaluated under two different positions, but height does matter. Quite a bit.

[Kedsy]

The real point here is that height is simply not a very important variable. I.e. we can't look at Zoubek's height and think, "We have an elite center!" It's obviously more about the other stuff.


Well, I understand your point but I completely disagree. The issue is not height per se but it is height for position or role. And in that context, height matters a lot.

It is not uncommon to see a shorter-than-average PG -- your list illustrates that. Presumably that's because the PG skillset is not necessarily negated by a taller defender. However, it is incredibly rare to see a shorter-than-average wing player unless that player (a) has an amazing handle; or (b) is an incredible shooter. G possesses neither of those characteristics, which is why his height is important. Seriously, try to name a player with G's skillset that has succeeded in the League at 6'4" or shorter. To my knowledge, there hasn't been one in at least the last 10 years and probably longer than that.

IMO, there's a reason for that. Most wing players in the NBA are great athletes, so a great athlete like G doesn't have the same kind of advantage he has in college. But it will that much more difficult for him to both score and defend because he'll be 2 to 5 inches shorter than the guy he's matched up against. And whether you believe that or not, a 2 to 5 inch height advantage matters if the players are otherwise pretty equal. Ben Gordon can deal with the height disparity by moving a little further back when he takes his shot -- he has that kind of range -- but G can't.

I'm not saying he'll be terrible, but he won't be a big contributor unless and until he can find a way to offset the height advantage, and the only two ways I know of are a superior handle and/or a superior shot. G can possibly accomplish that in time, but not his rookie year and probably not for several years.

I could be wrong, of course. Obviously we'll have to wait and see.

[turnandburn55]

The real point here is that height is simply not a very important variable. I.e. we can't look at Zoubek's height and think, "We have an elite center!" It's obviously more about the other stuff.


This is a basic logical fallacy, called "affirming the consquent". Using your logic, I could as easily argue that electricity is not an important variable for operating a personal computer. After all, my grandparents have plenty of electricity but cannot operate a PC. Ergo, electricity is simply not an important variable, right?

Putting it another way-- "necessary, but not sufficient".

[ice-9]

This is a basic logical fallacy, called "affirming the consquent". Using your logic, I could as easily argue that electricity is not an important variable for operating a personal computer. After all, my grandparents have plenty of electricity but cannot operate a PC. Ergo, electricity is simply not an important variable, right?

Putting it another way-- "necessary, but not sufficient".

Wha-?? I don't understand your analogy at all. How is an NBA's prospect's height related to electricity and computers? LOL.

To get back to basketball: we're simply putting WAY too much emphasis on height.

Is Kobe going to be a failure in the NBA if he somehow shrunk to 6'4? Is Paulus going to be an All-Star if he grew to 6'6 overnight? We all know the answer is no -- success depends on other things. Height helps, sure, but it's hardly the defining factor.

I can accept an argument that Henderson wouldn't be a success because he doesn't shoot well enough, or dribble well enough, but to say he won't succeed because he's 6'4 is not valid. Height is simply not that important, and the fact that DWade is a 6'4 SG and still a stud is ample proof.

[freshmanjs]

Wha-?? I don't understand your analogy at all. How is an NBA's prospect's height related to electricity and computers? LOL.

To get back to basketball: we're simply putting WAY too much emphasis on height.

Is Kobe going to be a failure in the NBA if he somehow shrunk to 6'4? Is Paulus going to be an All-Star if he grew to 6'6 overnight? We all know the answer is no -- success depends on other things. Height helps, sure, but it's hardly the defining factor.

I can accept an argument that Henderson wouldn't be a success because he doesn't shoot well enough, or dribble well enough, but to say he won't succeed because he's 6'4 is not valid. Height is simply not that important, and the fact that DWade is a 6'4 SG and still a stud is ample proof.

wow. it is an amazing coincidence then that there are no elite centers in the nba that are under 6 feet tall.

[Kedsy]

Wha-?? I don't understand your analogy at all. How is an NBA's prospect's height related to electricity and computers? LOL.

To get back to basketball: we're simply putting WAY too much emphasis on height.

Is Kobe going to be a failure in the NBA if he somehow shrunk to 6'4? Is Paulus going to be an All-Star if he grew to 6'6 overnight? We all know the answer is no -- success depends on other things. Height helps, sure, but it's hardly the defining factor.

I can accept an argument that Henderson wouldn't be a success because he doesn't shoot well enough, or dribble well enough, but to say he won't succeed because he's 6'4 is not valid. Height is simply not that important, and the fact that DWade is a 6'4 SG and still a stud is ample proof.

First of all, nobody is arguing that height alone will make someone a star, so I don't know why you keep bringing that up. Second, Kobe could not do what he does at 6'4". Wade is a success at 6'4" because he has a PG handle as well as his athleticism. He played PG at Marquette and averages 7+ assists per game in the NBA. His skillset is much more of a PG skillset than G's. You can't really compare the two.

To repeat myself for the nth time, the argument isn't that G won't succeed because of his height. The argument is it will be difficult for him to succeed because of the combination of his height and his skillset.

There are 6'2" players in high school who have a well-developed back-to-the-basket game, and have good success scoring down low because they're so strong. But if they don't also have a decent face-the-basket game, they will never play in college (at least not Division I). Why? Because they're too short to play a back-to-the-basket game at that level. Their skillset makes their height the determining factor. You can't point to someone like Jeff Teague and say he's 6'2" so a player that height can be a star; it's not relevant because Teague's game is so different from my hypothetical 6'2" center. This is so obvious I can't imagine why you are arguing.

G may ultimately succeed. He may not. IMO, he's going to have to develop other aspects of his game before he can succeed at his height in the NBA, and that will take time (if it happens at all). It's unlikely he will be a big contributor his rookie year.

[johaad]

I think it's true that some here are putting too much emphasis on height, but it does need to be understood that height is a factor. While it may not be the life or death of an NBA prospect, for the vast majority of them it does affect their draft position. Very few prospects are of the caliber of Dwayne Wade (6'4"). And for the rest that aren't D Wade, they have to be held to certain standards based on their height. Let me just say that I think Gerald will be great in the NBA. But for many of his height, they find themselves in the "PG or Bust" category.

[DukieBoy]

This might have been addressed and I missed it, but has he hired an agent?

[-jk]

This might have been addressed and I missed it, but has he hired an agent?

The board has some nice search features. Among them: at the top of each thread, there's a "Search this Thread" link. A quick search on the word "agent" kicks out the answer.

-jk

[ice-9]

wow. it is an amazing coincidence then that there are no elite centers in the nba that are under 6 feet tall.

Wow...you're absolutely right!

[ice-9]

To repeat myself for the nth time, the argument isn't that G won't succeed because of his height. The argument is it will be difficult for him to succeed because of the combination of his height and his skillset.

To repeat myself for the last time, if G doesn't succeed it won't be due to a combination of his height or skillset. It will just be due to his skillset.

[Edouble]

To repeat myself for the last time, if G doesn't succeed it won't be due to a combination of his height or skillset. It will just be due to his skillset.

I disagree strongly. If he fails, it will be due to a combination of height and skillset. The proof is that if G went into the draft with his current skillset, but he were 6'8" or 6'9", he would be the clear #1 pick in the draft.

[johaad]

I disagree strongly. If he fails, it will be due to a combination of height and skillset. The proof is that if G went into the draft with his current skillset, but he were 6'8" or 6'9", he would be the clear #1 pick in the draft.

that's a big statement to make. I'm sure he'd be higher, but over Griffin? I don't know

[Kfanarmy]

It's like a college grad deciding between Duke Medical School and say, Medical School at UConn. From the perspective of some lay blue collar person, what does it matter, both schools will make you a doctor, it makes no difference. For somebody who wants to be one of the best doctors, the differences are huge between those schools.


This is an interesting example of not acknowledging the difference between "perception" of who is best and the reality. The best Doctors, like the best players, come from a wide range of degree producing programs. The perception that because you went to this or that school, you are one of the best, washes itself out overtime as performance becomes the measure rather than where you graduated.

[Kfanarmy]

Is Kobe going to be a failure in the NBA if he somehow shrunk to 6'4?

Kobe Bryant's game would be seriously impacted if he lost 2-3 inches. He would be easier to guard, wouldn't have the same range on a single step, would be easier to block, etc. This whole height isn't important arguement is rediculous. If height weren't seriously important, the league would have the same average height as American men...which I'm guessing is somewhere around 5'10"... because the occurance of serious athletes is not somehow linked to height. By simple reasoning, you would find your absolute best athletes where the preponderance of people are. So why has the league gotten taller and taller?...because it is hard for shorter people to see and shoot over taller people, and when the two are similar athletically, the taller person has an advantage.

[yancem]

Kobe Bryant's game would be seriously impacted if he lost 2-3 inches. He would be easier to guard, wouldn't have the same range on a single step, would be easier to block, etc. This whole height isn't important arguement is rediculous. If height weren't seriously important, the league would have the same average height as American men...which I'm guessing is somewhere around 5'10"... because the occurance of serious athletes is not somehow linked to height. By simple reasoning, you would find your absolute best athletes where the preponderance of people are. So why has the league gotten taller and taller?...because it is hard for shorter people to see and shoot over taller people, and when the two are similar athletically, the taller person has an advantage.

If Kobe was 2-3 inches shorter he's be Wade which wouldn't exactly change his status among the nba elite. Look height matters (I hear you can't teach it) but dribbling, shooting, passing, defense are much more important. Muggsy Bogues was 5' frickin 3" and he was a productive player in the league for 12+ years. Henderson's height will put him at a disadvantage in certain situations once he's playing in the league but there are plenty of players his height that routinely play the two and are around his height. The thing is, most if not all of them either have a better handle, are better long range shooters or both. His athleticism will negate his height to a certain extent but in order for him to become more than an average nba player he will have to improve his handle and his shooting range. Both of which I think he can do.

[NovaScotian]

If Kobe was 2-3 inches shorter he's be Wade which wouldn't exactly change his status among the nba elite. Look height matters (I hear you can't teach it) but dribbling, shooting, passing, defense are much more important. Muggsy Bogues was 5' frickin 3" and he was a productive player in the league for 12+ years. Henderson's height will put him at a disadvantage in certain situations once he's playing in the league but there are plenty of players his height that routinely play the two and are around his height. The thing is, most if not all of them either have a better handle, are better long range shooters or both. His athleticism will negate his height to a certain extent but in order for him to become more than an average nba player he will have to improve his handle and his shooting range. Both of which I think he can do.

first - kobe and wade are much different players - while they both play the 2, kobe is also just as capable of playing three, and wade is probably more naturally a 1 than a 2. if kobe suddenly lost 2 or 3 inches, he would be nothing like wade - he would be more like gerald. a much more polished gerald.

second - bogues and boykins and nate robinson are bad examples, because they are anomalies who have used their freak speed to compensate. yes they can shoot very well but guys that short need to be fast as hell in order to create any separation with the defender.

the main point - gerald's nba value is absolutely affected by his height because whereas in college he could play 2, 3 and sometimes 4 when duke went small, in the l he will only ever be able to play the 2, and that means consistantly matching up with guys who are 6'6' or bigger. yes, his athleticism (which basically means ability to jump) will help make up for this around the rim, but it will not make playing perimeter d or getting his own shot much easier .

[ice-9]

Thanks yancem, took the words right out of my fingers.

Look guys, no one is saying you can succeed in the NBA if you're 3'4 like my nephew is. Of course height matters-- it's a threshold -- but isn't that obvious? Do we really need to discuss it?

6'4 is a height that is within the range of SGs in the NBA. G is not 5'4, he's 6'4. He's tall enough to be in the NBA.

Now the question then is, if he's tall enough to be an SG in the NBA, will his chance of success be dramatically affected if he's 6'4 vs. 6'5 vs. 6'6? THAT is the real argument here.

My argument is no. When you're tall enough, you're tall enough. It's the skillset, athleticism, attitude, other physical traits (e.g. wingspan) etc. that really matter.

People keep responding with "Well if you're that tall, you'll need this, and this, and this to succeed." But in reality, all you need is the "this and this." Tons of above-average-height-at-position players go undrafted in the NBA, and many below-average-height-at-position players succeed.

[Duke #33]

I think people need to stop over analyzing the height issue. Henderson is projected to be a later lottery pick. If a team thought that his below average height would keep him from being a productive player, then they would not draft him. Obviously, NBA teams don't pick solely on height, so that means that they(NBA teams) think that Henderson has the skills/ability to be a productive player. The best players are typically average to above average height, but there are a lot of very solid/good players who are slightly undersized for their posistions.

[Edouble]

If a team thought that his below average height would keep him from being a productive player, then they would not draft him. Obviously, NBA teams don't pick solely on height, so that means that they(NBA teams) think that Henderson has the skills/ability to be a productive player.

You're right--a team wouldn't pick him if they thought that his height would keep him from being a productive player. I can't argue with that.

But I would say that there's a very good chance that Henderson will be drafted not because he has the skills/ability to be a good player, but because he has the potential to be a good player. So much of the draft is based on potential these days, and G is an unpolished commodity. I think the reason for G being a lottery pick has more to do with the possible upside that comes with his athleticism, and less to do with his current skillset. I'm not saying he doesn't have skills, but IMHO it's his crazy hops, and to a lesser extent his NBA pedigree that are the big draw.

[CDu]

You're right--a team wouldn't pick him if they thought that his height would keep him from being a productive player. I can't argue with that.

But I would say that there's a very good chance that Henderson will be drafted not because he has the skills/ability to be a good player, but because he has the potential to be a good player. So much of the draft is based on potential these days, and G is an unpolished commodity. I think the reason for G being a lottery pick has more to do with the possible upside that comes with his athleticism, and less to do with his current skillset. I'm not saying he doesn't have skills, but IMHO it's his crazy hops, and to a lesser extent his NBA pedigree that are the big draw.

And to draw your statement to the next point: while Henderson's crazy hops and pedigree are a big draw, they probably aren't (with his skill set as is) enough for him to succeed/excel at the next level. He's being drafted because he has the potential to develop the skills necessary to make it. But his game isn't there yet, and there's no guarantee that it will get there.

By the same token, I don't think that coming back for another season would necessarily improve his draft stock. I think that the skills he needs to improve (i.e., ballhandling) aren't likely to happen in one year. And given that this is a weaker draft and he'll likely be a mid-first round pick, he might as well strike while the iron is hot if his primary goal is getting to the NBA.

[greybeard]

For what it's worth, Clyde the Glide was no better going left than G, at least not that I remember. Course, he was a good 2-4 inches taller; right now, G is a better shooter than Clyde was at Phi Slama.

[Indoor66]

For what it's worth, Clyde the Glide was no better going left than G, at least not that I remember. Course, he was a good 2-4 inches taller; right now, G is a better shooter than Clyde was at Phi Slama.

FYI, Drexler (http://www.nba.com/history/players/drexler_summary.html) is 6'7"!

[Duke #33]

You're right--a team wouldn't pick him if they thought that his height would keep him from being a productive player. I can't argue with that.

But I would say that there's a very good chance that Henderson will be drafted not because he has the skills/ability to be a good player, but because he has the potential to be a good player. So much of the draft is based on potential these days, and G is an unpolished commodity. I think the reason for G being a lottery pick has more to do with the possible upside that comes with his athleticism, and less to do with his current skillset. I'm not saying he doesn't have skills, but IMHO it's his crazy hops, and to a lesser extent his NBA pedigree that are the big draw.


And to draw your statement to the next point: while Henderson's crazy hops and pedigree are a big draw, they probably aren't (with his skill set as is) enough for him to succeed/excel at the next level. He's being drafted because he has the potential to develop the skills necessary to make it. But his game isn't there yet, and there's no guarantee that it will get there.

By the same token, I don't think that coming back for another season would necessarily improve his draft stock. I think that the skills he needs to improve (i.e., ballhandling) aren't likely to happen in one year. And given that this is a weaker draft and he'll likely be a mid-first round pick, he might as well strike while the iron is hot if his primary goal is getting to the NBA.

NBA teams think that Henderson will improve his skills/ability to be a productive player in the League. If a team thought that Henderson would have trouble improving his skills/ability to be a good player, then they would pass and pick a player that they think would definitly improve a lot. While coming back to Duke may not improve his draft stock, he would improve his skills(ball handling, driving left, shooting the 3)that would make him a better player. One could argue that he could improve those skills just as much in the NBA, but I think that he would develop more in 1 year of college because he will most likely see a lot more PT in college than in the NBA.

[SupaDave]

NBA teams think that Henderson will improve his skills/ability to be a productive player in the League. If a team thought that Henderson would have trouble improving his skills/ability to be a good player, then they would pass and pick a player that they think would definitly improve a lot. While coming back to Duke may not improve his draft stock, he would improve his skills(ball handling, driving left, shooting the 3)that would make him a better player. One could argue that he could improve those skills just as much in the NBA, but I think that he would develop more in 1 year of college because he will most likely see a lot more PT in college than in the NBA.

As opposed to ummmm, I don't know, something like playing against the best players in the WORLD to get better? Even practice has more talent than a NCAA tourney final. Let's not get confused here. He will without a doubt get better in the pros - faster. And just to strengthen that point, I present to you Mr. Carlos Boozer.

[Duke #33]

As opposed to ummmm, I don't know, something like playing against the best players in the WORLD to get better? Even practice has more talent than a NCAA tourney final. Let's not get confused here. He will without a doubt get better in the pros - faster. And just to strengthen that point, I present to you Mr. Carlos Boozer.

Gerald will improve where ever he goes(Duke or NBA). In college, he would be the star of his team, where the offense is largely structured around him. That experience would make him develop a variety of offensive moves that are not predictable(able to drive right and left). Right now, Gerald is pretty predictable offensively. If he goes to the NBA right now, then that offense will allow him to score around 6-12 points pergame(depending on his team). If he wants to become his teams #1 or #2 scoring option, then he will have to develop a more diverse/complete game. By going to college, he can work on improving his offensive skills in game situations with teams focused on stopping him. By going the the NBA right now, he could also improve his offensive abilities, but it would be very likely that he would be doing this in practice. For example, Dukes coaching staff thought that Plumlee practiced very well. As we know, that didn't translate into game situations. That for sure doesn't mean that Miles won't be good in game situations, but it means he wasn't ready for game situations.

[greybeard]

FYI, Drexler (http://www.nba.com/history/players/drexler_summary.html) is 6'7"!

I've stood next to Drexler and he is not 5 inches taller than I was. Had a long chat with him, as a matter of fact, the afternoon after MJ dropped like 50 or so on him in Chicago. More like 6'5" plus. Had a long chat with him, at Rochester Big and Tall.

I'm thinking 2-4 inches is about right, closer to 2-3 inches actually, and their games are quite similar, though I still think that G reminds me more of David Thompson, who had no easier time going left than G or Clide, btw.

Drexler covered lots of ground effortlessly and that first step was soooo long if he wanted it to be, well, he glided (I know it's not a word). He is also an incredibly bright and articulate man, who developed his jump shot much more as a pro. G has much better range than Drexler did in college. I agree that the height difference between the two is significant, and allowed Drexler literally to reach heights I'm not sure will be open to G.

The real issue for G is whether he can be clever enough to make his game work in a world filed with people trying to micro manage players. A real challenge. I don't think he has the cache to command deference to his finding his game. He'll have to take risks to reach his potential, which will take stones. I think he's got them. Wish him all the luck.

[Indoor66]

I've stood next to Drexler and he is not 5 inches taller than I was. Had a long chat with him, as a matter of fact, the afternoon after MJ dropped like 50 or so on him in Chicago. More like 6'5" plus. Had a long chat with him, at Rochester Big and Tall.

I'm thinking 2-4 inches is about right, closer to 2-3 inches actually, and their games are quite similar, though I still think that G reminds me more of David Thompson, who had no easier time going left than G or Clide, btw.

Drexler covered lots of ground effortlessly and that first step was soooo long if he wanted it to be, well, he glided (I know it's not a word). He is also an incredibly bright and articulate man, who developed his jump shot much more as a pro. G has much better range than Drexler did in college. I agree that the height difference between the two is significant, and allowed Drexler literally to reach heights I'm not sure will be open to G.

The real issue for G is whether he can be clever enough to make his game work in a world filed with people trying to micro manage players. A real challenge. I don't think he has the cache to command deference to his finding his game. He'll have to take risks to reach his potential, which will take stones. I think he's got them. Wish him all the luck.

Not to disagree with you, Greybeard, I only quoted the NBA Stats page I linked in my comment. They say he is 6'7". You're prior post said he was 2 - 4 inches taller than G - who is listed at 6'4".

[superdave]

Is it more important for Gerald Henderson to be 6'6'' or that he be fearless when he drives the lane?

Dwyane Wade is the same height as GH and he's fearless and has a ring, Finals MVP and is a top 3 player the league. GH has all the physical tools he needs - but what he needs on the next level is the confidence and attitude to cut opponents' hearts out.

[Kfanarmy]

Is it more important for Gerald Henderson to be 6'6'' or that he be fearless when he drives the lane?

Dwyane Wade is the same height as GH and he's fearless and has a ring, Finals MVP and is a top 3 player the league. GH has all the physical tools he needs - but what he needs on the next level is the confidence and attitude to cut opponents' hearts out. Look. I have been a big fan of GH; but he doesn't have the skills of Wade at this point, and like many may never have

[Kfanarmy]

I think people need to stop over analyzing the height issue. Henderson is projected to be a later lottery pick. If a team thought that his below average height would keep him from being a productive player, then they would not draft him. Obviously, NBA teams don't pick solely on height, so that means that they(NBA teams) think that Henderson has the skills/ability to be a productive player. The best players are typically average to above average height, but there are a lot of very solid/good players who are slightly undersized for their posistions.

I thought this discussion started, in part, because of a differing opinion on whether or not GH waiting a year to enter the draft would significantly impact the value of GH's 1st contract enough to make the wait worth it. I haven't seen anyone say he can't be productive (a term that can have widely differing definitions). Regardless of resulting performance, it would make economic sense to enter the draft early if he thought the total value of his 1st contract in 2009 wouldn't be significantly less per anum than a 1st contract in 2010. Conversely if he thought his stock would rise enough in 2010 that he could significantly improve his annual salary, perhaps he should wait, notwithstanding inherent risk of injury, illness, etc. His athletic capabilities are what they are; his skills on the other would likely increase to some degree. His height is simply one factor in whether or not he is currently ready to be a star, solid performer, role player, sub, bench material --given his skills...all ultimately a factor in where scout consensus will place him in the draft. If I were GH, and folks were telling me I would be a "productive player," I'd probably wait a year and try for a bit more encouraging description before entering.

[CDu]

Is it more important for Gerald Henderson to be 6'6'' or that he be fearless when he drives the lane?

Dwyane Wade is the same height as GH and he's fearless and has a ring, Finals MVP and is a top 3 player the league. GH has all the physical tools he needs - but what he needs on the next level is the confidence and attitude to cut opponents' hearts out.

Not exactly. Henderson has the leaping ability, but he doesn't have the strength, the ballhandling skills, or the passing ability that Wade had coming out of college.

Henderson's game is more similar to that of Richard Jefferson, but he's 3-4 inches shorter than Jefferson. If he doesn't improve his ballhandling and passing (or become a really great shooter), then I think the height will matter. If he can greatly improve his skills in one (or all) of those areas, then his height won't matter.

But bringing up Wade is not a fair comparison. Wade has PG skills with SG scoring ability. Henderson has forward skills with a combo guard body. It's not as simple as being tenacious to the rim. You have to have the ability to beat people off the dribble and have the threat of passing ability to keep defenders honest.

[Kedsy]

I thought this discussion started, in part, because of a differing opinion on whether or not GH waiting a year to enter the draft would significantly impact the value of GH's 1st contract enough to make the wait worth it. I haven't seen anyone say he can't be productive (a term that can have widely differing definitions). Regardless of resulting performance, it would make economic sense to enter the draft early if he thought the total value of his 1st contract in 2009 wouldn't be significantly less per anum than a 1st contract in 2010. Conversely if he thought his stock would rise enough in 2010 that he could significantly improve his annual salary, perhaps he should wait, notwithstanding inherent risk of injury, illness, etc. His athletic capabilities are what they are; his skills on the other would likely increase to some degree. His height is simply one factor in whether or not he is currently ready to be a star, solid performer, role player, sub, bench material --given his skills...all ultimately a factor in where scout consensus will place him in the draft. If I were GH, and folks were telling me I would be a "productive player," I'd probably wait a year and try for a bit more encouraging description before entering.

As was discussed in the "will G declare?" thread, the decision is a bit more complicated than that. Yes, you have to compare his likely 2009 draft position (and thus contract $$$) vs. his possible 2010 draft position. But there are two other issues that cannot be dismissed in this discussion. First, if he goes in 2009 he will earn a significant amount of money (and future interest on that money) that he will never earn if he stays in school. That money is almost certainly worth more than the difference between a 2009 rookie (3 year) contract and a slightly higher 2010 rookie contract.

Second, is the even more complex issue of his second contract, which comes 3 years after he is drafted (I think there's an option involved, so I'm not sure if the rookie contract is effectively 4 years or not, but I don't think so). For the player who is a big contributor right out of the gate, or for the one who never will be, then this second contract issue is largely irrelevant. But for the player who will not contribute much his first 2 or 3 years but may be a star (or at least a starter) in the long run, the extra year matters a lot. Because if the player needs, for example, 3 years to develop into a starter/big contributor, then he will be up for his second contract at a point where he has always been a bottom-of-the-rotation player and he will earn a much lower salary than if he's up for that contract after a year in the starting lineup.

This is where G's height and skillset come into play. If he needs to develop other skills to be a big NBA contributor, sure he can develop those skills in the NBA as well as or better than at Duke, but the clock will be running. If he develops at Duke for a year and then continues to develop and becomes a starter in his third NBA season instead of his fourth, then he'll be in the position to get a much richer second contract.

Of course, it's really even more complicated than that, and there's no way to know how long G needs to develop before he'll be a starter/big contributor. If he only needs 1 or 2 years -- or if he needs 4 or more -- then the second contract issue largely goes away and it probably makes financial sense (given his projected draft position) to leave now. It's only if he's on the cusp that coming back to Duke will give him a potential financial advantage.

[trinity92]

I would love to see GH return to Duke next year, but the talk about him needing to develop more skills suggests to me a lot of folks here don't watch NBA games. Top players in the League take shots that would get a college player benched, and still make them. They have to, because pro teams have 11 seconds less each possession in which to get a "quality" shot. When Kobe, Joe Johnson, Dirk Nowitski, Paul Pierce and those level players have the ball in the last couple seconds of the shot clock, their ability to pass the ball is completely irrelevant-- everyone in the building knows they're going to shoot, and they still stick the shot more often than not. When GH was having his blazing hot streak in the middle/end of this year, he was hitting those kind of shots with regularity. At a certain level, you either have the pro skills or you don't, and playing another year of college ball won't necessarily prepare you for a completely different kind of game.

[Kedsy]

I would love to see GH return to Duke next year, but the talk about him needing to develop more skills suggests to me a lot of folks here don't watch NBA games. Top players in the League take shots that would get a college player benched, and still make them. They have to, because pro teams have 11 seconds less each possession in which to get a "quality" shot. When Kobe, Joe Johnson, Dirk Nowitski, Paul Pierce and those level players have the ball in the last couple seconds of the shot clock, their ability to pass the ball is completely irrelevant-- everyone in the building knows they're going to shoot, and they still stick the shot more often than not. When GH was having his blazing hot streak in the middle/end of this year, he was hitting those kind of shots with regularity. At a certain level, you either have the pro skills or you don't, and playing another year of college ball won't necessarily prepare you for a completely different kind of game.

Every player you named (even Nowitzki) has significantly deeper range than G. And frankly, they also all have a better handle. Those are the skills we're talking about.

[CDu]

I would love to see GH return to Duke next year, but the talk about him needing to develop more skills suggests to me a lot of folks here don't watch NBA games. Top players in the League take shots that would get a college player benched, and still make them. They have to, because pro teams have 11 seconds less each possession in which to get a "quality" shot. When Kobe, Joe Johnson, Dirk Nowitski, Paul Pierce and those level players have the ball in the last couple seconds of the shot clock, their ability to pass the ball is completely irrelevant-- everyone in the building knows they're going to shoot, and they still stick the shot more often than not. When GH was having his blazing hot streak in the middle/end of this year, he was hitting those kind of shots with regularity. At a certain level, you either have the pro skills or you don't, and playing another year of college ball won't necessarily prepare you for a completely different kind of game.

It's not like the NBA has no time to run plays. They have 11 seconds, so they run mostly isolation plays. The guys who are good enough to score on their own (or create for others) get isolations set up for themselves. The guys who aren't become spot up shooters (i.e., role players). Passing is not an irrelevant skill. Players do it all the time in the NBA. If you think everyone in the NBA just comes down and hoist shots, then it is you who hasn't been watching the NBA enough.

The difference between Henderson and the guys you mentioned is that those guys are all tall enough to simply shoot over people when need be. None of the guys you mentioned is below 6'7". For guys Henderson's size (like Wade), they aren't shooting over people. They have to create separation to get their shot off. And defenders at the NBA level are bigger, stronger, and faster (and better) than college defenders, meaning separation isn't as easy to come by. That's why, at 6'3"/6'4", Henderson will need a better skill set to get his points in the league. He's either going to have to be able to shake the defenders to get his shot off or he's going to have to become a much better shooter to be an impact player in the league.

That's not to say he can't do that, of course. It remains to be seen how he'll do in the NBA obviously.

[Kfanarmy]

I would love to see GH return to Duke next year, but the talk about him needing to develop more skills suggests to me a lot of folks here don't watch NBA games. Top players in the League take shots that would get a college player benched, and still make them.

Isn't shooting a skill?

[Kfanarmy]

It's only if he's on the cusp that coming back to Duke will give him a potential financial advantage.

agree with all. Decision is largely financial and dependant on NBA evaluation of tangibles and intangibles of his potential over time. My primary point was simply that the discussion was more about how productive he is predicted to be vice whether or not he would be productive at all.

[cspan37421]

When Kobe, Joe Johnson, Dirk Nowitski, Paul Pierce and those level players have the ball in the last couple seconds of the shot clock, their ability to pass the ball is completely irrelevant-- everyone in the building knows they're going to shoot, and they still stick the shot more often than not.

Not one of those guys shot FG 50% this year or for their career. Is their shooting percentage higher with the shot clock under 3 seconds? I doubt it. Probably we just remember the 40-45% of the time they do hit it, and discount the misses.

[ice-9]

It's not like the NBA has no time to run plays. They have 11 seconds, so they run mostly isolation plays. The guys who are good enough to score on their own (or create for others) get isolations set up for themselves. The guys who aren't become spot up shooters (i.e., role players). Passing is not an irrelevant skill. Players do it all the time in the NBA. If you think everyone in the NBA just comes down and hoist shots, then it is you who hasn't been watching the NBA enough.

The difference between Henderson and the guys you mentioned is that those guys are all tall enough to simply shoot over people when need be. None of the guys you mentioned is below 6'7". For guys Henderson's size (like Wade), they aren't shooting over people. They have to create separation to get their shot off. And defenders at the NBA level are bigger, stronger, and faster (and better) than college defenders, meaning separation isn't as easy to come by. That's why, at 6'3"/6'4", Henderson will need a better skill set to get his points in the league. He's either going to have to be able to shake the defenders to get his shot off or he's going to have to become a much better shooter to be an impact player in the league.

That's not to say he can't do that, of course. It remains to be seen how he'll do in the NBA obviously.


G has very good form on his jumpshot and he releases at the apex of his jump. I'd argue that he shoots taller than his height would indicate.

A lot of posters here have stressed handling, but I actually think long range shooting accuracy is more important for a player like G.

Handling and penetrating are two different skills. Paulus can handle, but he cannot penetrate. G and DeMarc can penetrate, but they cannot handle. Assuming G ends up on a team with a decent PG, he wouldn't be asked to handle -- he just needs to shoot well, penetrate or pass. Of those three skills, he is weakest at long-range shooting.

If G can develop a 3 point shot to go along with his already excellent mid-range game, G will have a solid NBA career. The ability to handle the ball like a PG is secondary. (His height is tertiary. ;))

[Sobriquet]

G has very good form on his jumpshot and he releases at the apex of his jump. I'd argue that he shoots taller than his height would indicate.

A lot of posters here have stressed handling, but I actually think long range shooting accuracy is more important for a player like G.

Handling and penetrating are two different skills. Paulus can handle, but he cannot penetrate. G and DeMarc can penetrate, but they cannot handle. Assuming G ends up on a team with a decent PG, he wouldn't be asked to handle -- he just needs to shoot well, penetrate or pass. Of those three skills, he is weakest at long-range shooting.

If G can develop a 3 point shot to go along with his already excellent mid-range game, G will have a solid NBA career. The ability to handle the ball like a PG is secondary. (His height is tertiary. ;))


While I agree that G's ball handling needs work, he is a MUCH better dribbler than DeMarcus. I don't think it is even that close. And, frankly, I think his ball handling with his Right hand is at a NBA starter level right now. He is very bad going to his left, I agree, and that drags the overall average down, because teams will try to force him left.

But, I still think he was a reliable Three point threat. For much of the season, I thought he was our second best three point shooter, based on Kyle and Jon's ebbs and flows from outside. He was a capable shooter, and this from a line closer to the pro line than last year's college stripe.

Assuming he makes the same level of progress on his outside jumper this summer as he has during the previous 2 summers, I think he can be a competant perimeter shooter sooner rather than later.

And, keep in mind that virtually every NBA coach and GM is a closet egomaniac with a god complex. Each one thinks they can max out a players potential.

And in private workouts, G's potential is going to be scary. His athleticism will wow everyone he works out with.

They know he can run and jump with the best of them. He is capable of, and willing to play, lockdown D. And he'll be good for 8-12 ppg immediately on broken plays, mid range j's, breakaways, etc. If he'll rebound and play D, it will be hard for a lottery team to keep him on the bench.

As an aside, I have to wonder if we would be saying all of this if G were a Sr. Since he is leaving early, and potentially dealing a serious body blow to next year's team, if some here aren't poking holes in his game in the Hope he will come back? Maybe its subconcious, but there is a real underlying current of negativity.

People were shouted down for making less derogatory statements about Paulus for the last couple of years.

Given how little some of you apparantly think of G's abilities, maybe we should be counting our lucky stars that he is no longer on the team.

[Oriole Way]

While I agree that G's ball handling needs work, he is a MUCH better dribbler than DeMarcus. I don't think it is even that close. And, frankly, I think his ball handling with his Right hand is at a NBA starter level right now. He is very bad going to his left, I agree, and that drags the overall average down, because teams will try to force him left.


I disagree. Did you see DeMarcus playing in the NBA at the beginning of this past season? He has drastically improved his dribble, so much so that he not only made the Warriors opening night roster, but he was a point guard for them. So, not only is it indeed close in regards to Gerald's and DeMarcus' ball-handling abilities, but I would say DeMarcus' handles are better right now.

Gerald is nothing more than adequate for a shooting guard going to his right, and mediocre at best going to his left. So I would wholeheartedly disagree with you on the two players' comparative ball-handling abilities.

[FireOgilvie]

While I agree that G's ball handling needs work, he is a MUCH better dribbler than DeMarcus. I don't think it is even that close. And, frankly, I think his ball handling with his Right hand is at a NBA starter level right now. He is very bad going to his left, I agree, and that drags the overall average down, because teams will try to force him left.

But, I still think he was a reliable Three point threat. For much of the season, I thought he was our second best three point shooter, based on Kyle and Jon's ebbs and flows from outside. He was a capable shooter, and this from a line closer to the pro line than last year's college stripe.

Assuming he makes the same level of progress on his outside jumper this summer as he has during the previous 2 summers, I think he can be a competant perimeter shooter sooner rather than later.

And, keep in mind that virtually every NBA coach and GM is a closet egomaniac with a god complex. Each one thinks they can max out a players potential.

And in private workouts, G's potential is going to be scary. His athleticism will wow everyone he works out with.

They know he can run and jump with the best of them. He is capable of, and willing to play, lockdown D. And he'll be good for 8-12 ppg immediately on broken plays, mid range j's, breakaways, etc. If he'll rebound and play D, it will be hard for a lottery team to keep him on the bench.

As an aside, I have to wonder if we would be saying all of this if G were a Sr. Since he is leaving early, and potentially dealing a serious body blow to next year's team, if some here aren't poking holes in his game in the Hope he will come back? Maybe its subconcious, but there is a real underlying current of negativity.

People were shouted down for making less derogatory statements about Paulus for the last couple of years.

Given how little some of you apparantly think of G's abilities, maybe we should be counting our lucky stars that he is no longer on the team.


1. G is not a "much" better dribbler than DeMarcus. I would say they are/were about equal coming out of college. Neither one of them is great.

2. He made a good percentage of 3 pointers when he was open, but he definitely does not have NBA range right now. He will never be JJ, but he should eventually be a solid shooter, probably average in the NBA.

3. G's defense is not as good as you make it out to be. He's not as good as DeMarcus was coming out of school, but he will be okay. He won't be able to guard the taller SGs as well as some "lockdown" defenders.

4. 8-12 ppg will not happen next year unless G plays 30 minutes/game. I don't see that happening. If he plays for a mid-level team, I'm guessing he'll average 4-7 points per game next year, which would be pretty solid for a rookie.

I also think your statement about how we might consider ourselves lucky he is gone is absurd. I don't think anyone is being overly negative. I think it's just being realistic about his immediate impact at the NBA level. DeMarcus left after his senior year with similar numbers and similar weaknesses as G, and went undrafted. I think G deserves to be mid-1st round this year on potential, but there are several undeniable weaknesses in his game at the moment.

[Sobriquet]

I also think your statement about how we might consider ourselves lucky he is gone is absurd. I don't think anyone is being overly negative. I think it's just being realistic about his immediate impact at the NBA level. DeMarcus left after his senior year with similar numbers and similar weaknesses as G, and went undrafted. I think G deserves to be mid-1st round this year on potential, but there are several undeniable weaknesses in his game at the moment.


G's skill level and potential are not set in stone. I certainly see why some of you don't believe he has a high ceiling in the NBA, or at least needs another season in college first.

But that line of thought is very self serving, you all have to admit that.

It just comes off as taking shots at a kid who has hurt us by thwarting our dreams for next season.

[Kedsy]

They know he can run and jump with the best of them. He is capable of, and willing to play, lockdown D. And he'll be good for 8-12 ppg immediately on broken plays, mid range j's, breakaways, etc. If he'll rebound and play D, it will be hard for a lottery team to keep him on the bench.

As an aside, I have to wonder if we would be saying all of this if G were a Sr. Since he is leaving early, and potentially dealing a serious body blow to next year's team, if some here aren't poking holes in his game in the Hope he will come back? Maybe its subconcious, but there is a real underlying current of negativity.


In the NBA, the "lockdown" defender guards Kobe, LeBron, Wade, etc. Someone like Shane Battier, who not only was national defensive player of the year in college but is a good four inches taller than G. Do you really think G is of that caliber?

As someone else said, G won't be good for for 8 to 12 ppg unless he's a starter, and only a handful of rookies do that.

I also think your point that we're somehow trying to convince G to stay is kind of silly. I'd be saying this no matter what and I'm not being negative toward G. I am attempting to be realistic about his chances in the face of some posters thinking he's going to be an immediate starter and rookie of the year. The list of people with G's height/skillset combination who have been immediate stars is very short (probably empty in recent years). The list of such people who were drafted in the first round but never got a second contract is a lot longer than you seem to think.

If I were G I'd probably be leaning toward staying in the draft, so personally I have no problem with whatever decision he makes. I'll be rooting for him no matter what, and I hope he beats the odds and becomes a star. But even if he does it's a very long shot that it will happen his rookie year. That's all I'm saying.

[MChambers]

G's skill level and potential are not set in stone. I certainly see why some of you don't believe he has a high ceiling in the NBA, or at least needs another season in college first.

But that line of thought is very self serving, you all have to admit that.

It just comes off as taking shots at a kid who has hurt us by thwarting our dreams for next season.

While I am grateful that G played for Duke, and will root for him in the NBA, I really don't see him as an NBA starter any time soon. Hope I'm wrong.

[FireOgilvie]

G's skill level and potential are not set in stone. I certainly see why some of you don't believe he has a high ceiling in the NBA, or at least needs another season in college first.

But that line of thought is very self serving, you all have to admit that.

It just comes off as taking shots at a kid who has hurt us by thwarting our dreams for next season.

First, G is gone. It's in Duke's best interest for G to be incredibly successful in the NBA. I have no problem with him leaving, and I think it's probably in his best interest after so many lottery locks dropped out.

Observations, whether positive or negative, of Paulus or any other Duke players are not a message board crime. No one was ever in trouble for saying, "Paulus has trouble staying in front of his man on defense." It's just as valid as saying, "Paulus is a great 3 point shooter." It's all about the tone and any kind of negative hyperbole... someone is a "terrible basketball player," etc. No one has said, "G will fail in the NBA," it's more like "G will have trouble if he doesn't improve _____." I think there's a huge difference.

I'm as big of a G fan as anyone, and I hope he becomes an All-Star in his first year. At the same time, that won't happen unless he improves, and obviously he knows that as well as anyone.

[UrinalCake]

Given how little some of you apparantly think of G's abilities, maybe we should be counting our lucky stars that he is no longer on the team.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but I feel that the majority of posts in this thread have been pretty honest and objective about G's abilties and potential at the NBA level. No one is denying that he was a dominant college player last year and would be again if he were to stay. There's a big disparity in talent between college and the NBA, and a different set of skills that are valued in the draft process, and what we're debating is how his skills will translate.

I agree that his three point shooting will be critical. In college it was a better play for him to drive than to take an open three, in terms of expected value. His three point shooting was necessary only to keep defenses honest so they didn't completely play off of him. But in the NBA that may no longer be true - an open three might be a better shot than an attempt at creating a two.

To pose a new question, does anyone have any thoughts on what a good destination would be for G? I'm not very familiar with the NBA but I would think maybe a team like the Celtics, which places a high value on defense, or the Spurs, who could use a spark off the bench. Of course neither of these teams is in the lottery.

[johaad]

To pose a new question, does anyone have any thoughts on what a good destination would be for G? I'm not very familiar with the NBA but I would think maybe a team like the Celtics, which places a high value on defense, or the Spurs, who could use a spark off the bench. Of course neither of these teams is in the lottery.

It will be easier to tell after the lottery teams are picked. I hope it isn't the spurs. I could see a number of teams wanting G. I'd like to see him in New York and be a piece of the rebuilding effort. For my own selfish reasons, I'd like him in Orlando (but thats not going to happen).

[flyingdutchdevil]

It will be easier to tell after the lottery teams are picked. I hope it isn't the spurs. I could see a number of teams wanting G. I'd like to see him in New York and be a piece of the rebuilding effort. For my own selfish reasons, I'd like him in Orlando (but thats not going to happen).

Considering that Orlando was around 4 SGs, doubt it ;)

Agree with New York, but a team like Toronto (need an SG) or New Jersey (a replacement for Carter, perhaps) makes a lot of sense.

If the lottery falls as it should with worst team picking first (which it never does), I see Washington as the only team in the top 7 choosing G as the rest all have decent SGs already (Sac - Martin, Washington - McGuire, Young, Clips - Gordon, Oklahoma - Durant/Thabo, Minn - Miller/Foye, Memphis - Mayo)

[sagegrouse]

Considering that Orlando was around 4 SGs, doubt it ;)

Agree with New York, but a team like Toronto (need an SG) or New Jersey (a replacement for Carter, perhaps) makes a lot of sense.

If the lottery falls as it should with worst team picking first (which it never does), I see Washington as the only team in the top 7 choosing G as the rest all have decent SGs already (Sac - Martin, Washington - McGuire, Young, Clips - Gordon, Oklahoma - Durant/Thabo, Minn - Miller/Foye, Memphis - Mayo)

I wonder. I think G. is less a "missing piece of the puzzle" than a freak athlete with a lot of upside. I suspect Gerald will be drafted as a proverbial "best player available" by almost any team. I don't think he will be drafted with a view that he will be in the rotation and play 15-20 MPG in 2009-2010.

IMHO (with the Grouse the 'H' is usually silent), he may very well turn out to be a player that HAS to play: I mean, who is going to guard him? OTOH (after all, I am an economist) he was slow to pick up the college game, and he may not exactly burst onto the NBA scene.

sagegrouse
'Yaaay! I reached 700 posts!'

[Kedsy]

Considering that Orlando was around 4 SGs, doubt it ;)

Agree with New York, but a team like Toronto (need an SG) or New Jersey (a replacement for Carter, perhaps) makes a lot of sense.

If the lottery falls as it should with worst team picking first (which it never does), I see Washington as the only team in the top 7 choosing G as the rest all have decent SGs already (Sac - Martin, Washington - McGuire, Young, Clips - Gordon, Oklahoma - Durant/Thabo, Minn - Miller/Foye, Memphis - Mayo)

No one in the top 7 will choose G. He's too risky and not enough immediate help. He should be chosen late lottery or just out of the lottery by a team that doesn't need him right now but likes his upside.

[Kedsy]

IMHO (with the Grouse the 'H' is usually silent), he may very well turn out to be a player that HAS to play: I mean, who is going to guard him?

I hate to be the guy who always appears to be down on G, because I'm not. I think he's a fabulous college player. But, come on. Lots of players in the NBA can guard G. NBA rosters are filled with amazing athletes; G will have a hard time outquicking most defenders, especially since he won't go to his left very much. Plus, almost everyone who will match up with him will be taller, so he won't be able to just go over them (or shoot over them) very easily, either. He's going to need more space to get off his mid-range shot and he doesn't yet have deep (NBA) three-point range.

G has great physical tools. Eventually he can get to the point where he starts in the NBA. But it won't be his rookie year and it won't be because nobody can guard him. It will be because he's smart and because he works harder than his competition.

[sagegrouse]

I hate to be the guy who always appears to be down on G, because I'm not. I think he's a fabulous college player. But, come on. Lots of players in the NBA can guard G. NBA rosters are filled with amazing athletes; G will have a hard time outquicking most defenders, especially since he won't go to his left very much. Plus, almost everyone who will match up with him will be taller, so he won't be able to just go over them (or shoot over them) very easily, either. He's going to need more space to get off his mid-range shot and he doesn't yet have deep (NBA) three-point range.

G has great physical tools. Eventually he can get to the point where he starts in the NBA. But it won't be his rookie year and it won't be because nobody can guard him. It will be because he's smart and because he works harder than his competition.

I think we can agree to disagree. There are a lot of great athletes in the NBA, but there are very few who are better athletes than G., and they will not necessarily be the ones assigned to guard him.

sagegrouse

[Kedsy]

I think we can agree to disagree. There are a lot of great athletes in the NBA, but there are very few who are better athletes than G., and they will not necessarily be the ones assigned to guard him.

sagegrouse

I don't know who you think will be guarding him but, OK, let's wait and see.

[Edouble]

Given how little some of you apparantly think of G's abilities, maybe we should be counting our lucky stars that he is no longer on the team.

I don't know of one college basketball fan who thinks Hansbrough is going to do anything in the NBA, but any NCAA team would love to have him suiting up for their school next year.

The college game and the NBA game are completely different animals. Lots of great college players haven't amounted to much in the NBA. There's no shame or shock for many players that can't make the successful transistion.

I'd love to have G on the team again next year. He's gone though and will not be back. I've posted several times that I don't think his skill set is ready for the pros though.

[_Gary]

I honestly think the real problem G has is one he can't control: his height. He has the skill set right now to be a decent SG or SF, and I have no doubt that he'll continue to improve his outside shot, his drive to the left, and so on. He'll be fine on all those fronts. His biggest problem is his size (no pun intended). If he were just a couple of inches taller I'd peg him to be a very good pro. But I'm just afraid at 6'4/6'5 he's going to have a much tougher time than people think he will. He's not going to be able to just sky over everyone or even elevate over all the defenders he'll be facing night in and night out. I think 6'7 or better is where he needs to be with his skill set right now in order to be dominant. And there's not a thing in the world he can do about that unfortunately. Hope I'm wrong and he's a perenial All-Star.

[greybeard]

G was a scratch golfer in high school. G figured out how to get some of that golf swing (body rotation) out of his shot delivery this year and man did his shooting take off. G consistently delivered as the go-to man, often going "off" on prolonged runs when everybody in the gym knew he was taking it and he was double and triple teamed--did it in diverse ways too, catch and shoot from deep, off the bounce and pull up, and well need I say more about the finishes. Think in terms of the daffy Dude who used to play with Patrick in NY only with G's smarts and other personal qualities.

It was great to see him delevop into a "showtime player" who still stayed focused and committed to all aspects of the game. Wish nothing but good things for the kid and wouldn't bet against him being an impact palyer for years to come.

[SilkyJ]

G was a scratch golfer in high school. G figured out how to get some of that golf swing (body rotation) out of his shot delivery this year and man did his shooting take off.

its official, greybeard has moved on from promoting soccer and will now request that all duke bball players switch to golf in the offseason! :rolleyes:

[Azdukefan]

I am sure the mod's are not going to like my take (especially with this being only my second post), but for me personally (and I am as loyal a Duke fan out there) I truly could care less what our guys do in the pros. Grant Hill is my favorite Dukie of all time and plays in the arena twenty miles from my house and have yet to go to a game. There is nothing wrong with dismissing what G/Singler or anyone else does in the pros. If G is willing to pass up an opportunity to play at the greatest university on the planet to sit on an NBA bench, that is his perrogative (sp?) but I also think it is our perrogative to not consider him an all time great. There were a few JJ Redick comparisons and that is just plain crazy (he would have been a first round pick had he left early). Seeing JJ walk off the court against LSU choked me up because he loved his university and he of all people deserved a championship. This type of affection will never be there for me if G passes on his senior year for the almighty dollar (it can wait a year).

[SilkyJ]

I am sure the mod's are not going to like my take (especially with this being only my second post), but for me personally (and I am as loyal a Duke fan out there) I truly could care less what our guys do in the pros. Grant Hill is my favorite Dukie of all time and plays in the arena twenty miles from my house and have yet to go to a game. There is nothing wrong with dismissing what G/Singler or anyone else does in the pros. If G is willing to pass up an opportunity to play at the greatest university on the planet to sit on an NBA bench, that is his perrogative (sp?) but I also think it is our perrogative to not consider him an all time great. There were a few JJ Redick comparisons and that is just plain crazy (he would have been a first round pick had he left early). Seeing JJ walk off the court against LSU choked me up because he loved his university and he of all people deserved a championship. This type of affection will never be there for me if G passes on his senior year for the almighty dollar (it can wait a year).

While I personally have a different take than you as I closely follow JJ, Shane, Carlos, et al. in the pros (particularly in the playoffs when the level of play rises) I see no problem in what you posted. Just your opinion and you are entitled to it, even if its wrong ;)

[Edouble]

I am sure the mod's are not going to like my take (especially with this being only my second post), but for me personally (and I am as loyal a Duke fan out there) I truly could care less what our guys do in the pros. Grant Hill is my favorite Dukie of all time and plays in the arena twenty miles from my house and have yet to go to a game. There is nothing wrong with dismissing what G/Singler or anyone else does in the pros. If G is willing to pass up an opportunity to play at the greatest university on the planet to sit on an NBA bench, that is his perrogative (sp?) but I also think it is our perrogative to not consider him an all time great. There were a few JJ Redick comparisons and that is just plain crazy (he would have been a first round pick had he left early). Seeing JJ walk off the court against LSU choked me up because he loved his university and he of all people deserved a championship. This type of affection will never be there for me if G passes on his senior year for the almighty dollar (it can wait a year).

You couldn't care less, actually.

Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you, I'm just sick of reading that sentence written the wrong way. Maybe some folks don't know that what they're saying is the exact opposite of what they mean.

[-jk]

You couldn't care less, actually.

Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you, I'm just sick of reading that sentence written the wrong way. Maybe some folks don't know that what they're saying is the exact opposite of what they mean.

Sometimes known as sarcasm.

-jk

[derayb]

I just posted the article link below in the John Wall thread but there is a mention of G within the article. No breaking news but Andy Katz mentions that he's been told that G will soon sign with Arn Tellem (sp?)

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4149709&name=katz_andy

[greybeard]

its official, greybeard has moved on from promoting soccer and will now request that all duke bball players switch to golf in the offseason! :rolleyes:

If you got a guy as skilled and succcessful at basketball as G, and at the same time was able to completely master an imponderably more difficult set of athletic moves involved in playing golf, questions about his ability to adapt as he must to succeed at the next level are for me put aside. On the other hand, if he could play soccer the way he plays basketball, much less the way he was able to play golf, I'd go for that sport if I were him. The fans are much more knowledgible and appreciative of what it takes for stars like G to get where they got. ;)

[Azdukefan]

You couldn't care less, actually.

Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you, I'm just sick of reading that sentence written the wrong way. Maybe some folks don't know that what they're saying is the exact opposite of what they mean.

Again, I could care less! This is a forum/discussion board not a dissertation. My point was that the emphasis placed on the NBA is crazy. One of our greatest players ever at Duke (maybe the greatest-Christian Laettner) was considered an NBA flop (but that did not change my view of his greatness). Back to G, I wish him no harm but not coming back to play one more year at The Duke University is a decision he WILL regret (see: Kobe Bryant's take on missing out on college). One Shining Moment is the greatest moment in sports and he potentially could experience it but that would be just too risky for his career.

[Exiled_Devil]

Again, I could care less! This is a forum/discussion board not a dissertation.
Just a heads up, but here at DBR, people tend to respect you more if you do things like spell check (especially, absolutely, players names) and use appropriate grammar and idioms in you post.

This may not be a dissertation, but its also not a run-of-the-mill sports discussion board.

I'm intrigued by your point - I agree the NBA is over-emphasized, but I can think of so many better sports moments than the shining song.

[wilson]

Just a heads up, but here at DBR, people tend to respect you more if you do things like spell check (especially, absolutely, players names) and use appropriate grammar and idioms in you post.
(emphasis added)

Hence the delicious irony in the sentence above.

[Azdukefan]

I did not literally mean the song. I meant having the song played while your team is drenched in confetti after winning the national championship. JJ did not experience this but was worthy enough to experience it (through his hard work and absolute love for his university, team, and coaches). Not to beat a dead horse but G taking the NBA plunge absolutely discredits him in my book from being mentioned amongst the Duke greats. One semester of playing at a high level is not the standard upheld at Duke for "greats."

[Farlan]

Again, I could care less! This is a forum/discussion board not a dissertation. My point was that the emphasis placed on the NBA is crazy. One of our greatest players ever at Duke (maybe the greatest-Christian Laettner) was considered an NBA flop (but that did not change my view of his greatness). Back to G, I wish him no harm but not coming back to play one more year at The Duke University is a decision he WILL regret (see: Kobe Bryant's take on missing out on college). One Shining Moment is the greatest moment in sports and he potentially could experience it but that would be just too risky for his career.
While Laettner wasn't a superstar, I wouldn't call someone who played 13 solid years in the league a "NBA flop".

[KrazyKfan]

My opinion is that college basketball has something the NBA doesn't. There is a greater sense of mortality in college. You only have four years to get a championship. In the NBA, the period to win an NBA championship could last 20 years. I also favor the rules of college basketball more. I hate the 12-15 quarters (I don't know how long they last, I gave up on the NBA a long time ago), I hate the series of games in the playoffs instead of a huge field with single elimination like the NCAA tourney.

So for me and many other die hard duke fans, we wish that Gerald Henderson would sacrifice one year of professional status to help Duke University basketball satisfy a craving that hasn't been quenched for over eight years now, all while watching UNC win 2 of the last 5.

No disrespect, but people have many different opinions about the NBA, and each one should be examined and appraised thoroughly.

[Exiled_Devil]

(emphasis added)

Hence the delicious irony in the sentence above.

Can I claim it was on purpose?

[Azdukefan]

Can I claim it was on purpose?

You can claim it but we know better. The idea of stones and glass houses comes to mind. I would have never caught or responded but you started it (sorry I know that is very Pre-K). I guess you just made it the run of the mill discussion board as well.

The irony is your ploy for Battier to be President further backs my claim that staying in school for four years can not hurt you!

[verga]

I don't care about a player (if he goes to the pros) once he's left Duke, i like for them to be happy and healthy, aside from that i could care less what they do in the pros. I care about basketball at Duke and the players that compete for the school i cheer for. I do not wish Henderson any bad luck or hope he doesn't perform well at the next level.
I know a lot of people (fans) live through players once they reach the pros but i'm not one of those people. To me NBA basketball is a slot lower on the food chain than wrestling. Its exciting, lots of chest bumping, plenty of "cussing" and a emphasis on the stars, just like wrestling. If you don't think so watch it, if you can, it does take a strong stomach to endure even a quarter of a game. I remember Chris Duhon going the length of the court at unc in 2004 to make a layup and beat the heels, that and the national championship Duhon was on in 2001, thats what i remember about Chris. The things he's done in the pros, i have no idea and thats the way i like to remember him and all other Duke basketball players. By the way, i'm not going to spell check this, you'll have to live with it.

[Kedsy]

(sorry I know that is very Pre-K)

You mean 1980?

[Owen Meany]

I am sure the mod's are not going to like my take (especially with this being only my second post), but for me personally (and I am as loyal a Duke fan out there) I truly could care less what our guys do in the pros. Grant Hill is my favorite Dukie of all time and plays in the arena twenty miles from my house and have yet to go to a game. There is nothing wrong with dismissing what G/Singler or anyone else does in the pros. If G is willing to pass up an opportunity to play at the greatest university on the planet to sit on an NBA bench, that is his perrogative (sp?) but I also think it is our perrogative to not consider him an all time great. There were a few JJ Redick comparisons and that is just plain crazy (he would have been a first round pick had he left early). Seeing JJ walk off the court against LSU choked me up because he loved his university and he of all people deserved a championship. This type of affection will never be there for me if G passes on his senior year for the almighty dollar (it can wait a year).


Wow. You consider yourself "as loyal a Duke fan out there" but you "truly could care less what our guys do in the pros" (I assume you mean couldn't care less). I am a long time Duke fan. As such, I wish the best for the team and for the young men who play on it. I absolutely want to see them succeed in their chosen profession. Not only because it reflects well on Coach K and leads to better recruiting, etc. But because I want to see these young men succeed in life. I can understand someone who doen't enjoy the pro game, doesn't watch it, etc. But to "care less" whether the players succeed in their future lives does not sound like much of a fan to me. And I think the players (and Caoch K) would agree. You even single out Grant Hill as a player you could care less how he does in the pros. Hill, more so than any Duke player ever, passed up big $ to return to Duke for his senior year. If you have no interest in seeing him succeed, what players do you care about?


Also, you consider Laettner an NBA flop. He was 1st team All-Rookie, an NBA All-Star, and played 13 seasons in the NBA - hardly a flop.


I don't consider Henderson one of the all-time Duke greats for one reason - because he isn't. But that has nothing to do with his leaving early. I think there are areas he could improve, and benefits to returning for his senior year. But I also realize that he has a future to consider. With all of the players who opted out of this draft (which was already considered weak), and a possible lockout looming, I think his decision is understandable. The only thing he owed Duke was to play hard and represent the University well while he was here. And he has done this admirably. He also continued with his school work even after he apparently knew he would be moving on. So he fulfilled his obligations to the end. And I fully expect him to graduate and to continue to be a part of the "family" - by coming back in the summers, helping with Clinics, etc. And I have no doubt Coach K will welcome him back with no reservations.


Henderson is not one of the 25 best Duke players ever. But he represented the team and University well. He worked very hard to improve his game. He is very well-spoken and has stayed out of trouble. He helped Duke to return to the top pf the ACC and to win the ACC tournament this year. I will always be grateful for his emotion and play-particularly his incredible dunk - after Smith went down at Maryland. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a more emphatic display of a players concern for a teammate. So I absolutely want to see him be successful in life - including his professional career. And to begrudge him success because he didn't return for his senior year would be petty.


For those who do care how Duke players fair after leaving the court - I read today that Domzalski graduated from Medical School and is currently in residency. I always liked that kid and am glad he is successful.

[Edouble]

Sometimes known as sarcasm.

-jk

That was definitely not used as sarcasm.

Saying "I could care less" when one really means "I couldn't care less" is a mistake that people make all the time that they don't realize is wrong, like using a double negative, or saying "very unique". As a mod, I'm sure you know there is mass castigation heaped upon those who type "Sheldon" or "McCloud". Unfortunately, I've noticed the "I could care less" thing showing up around here a lot lately. :)

Apparently Owen Meany cares about semantics too. Thanks buddy.

[gep]

The only thing he owed Duke was to play hard and represent the University well while he was here. And he has done this admirably.

***(cut)***
He also continued with his school work even after he apparently knew he would be moving on. So he fulfilled his obligations to the end. And I fully expect him to graduate and to continue to be a part of the "family" - by coming back in the summers, helping with Clinics, etc. And I have no doubt Coach K will welcome him back with no reservations.


Henderson is not one of the 25 best Duke players ever. But he represented the team and University well. He worked very hard to improve his game. He is very well-spoken and has stayed out of trouble. He helped Duke to return to the top pf the ACC and to win the ACC tournament this year. I will always be grateful for his emotion and play-particularly his incredible dunk - after Smith went down at Maryland. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a more emphatic display of a players concern for a teammate. So I absolutely want to see him be successful in life - including his professional career. And to begrudge him success because he didn't return for his senior year would be petty.

***(cut)***


I fully agree with this post. Gerald has done everything expected of a Duke student-athlete. I will follow his career in the NBA as much as I have with Grant, MikeD, JJ, Shel, Shane...etc... whether they stayed the full 4 years or left early. I even try to follow Josh, and really hope he finds his place.

I also really liked Gerald's show of solidarity (in my mind) after Nolan went down at MD. To me, it showed he really cared for his teammates... after all, isn't that what "team sports" is all about?:)

And, even if us fans think Gerald can improve with one more year in college, he's probably got real good input from real good basketball folks that he's probably not making a mistake going in early... just my 2 cents:rolleyes:

[ncexnyc]

"One of our greatest players ever at Duke (maybe the greatest-Christian Laettner) was considered an NBA flop (but that did not change my view of his greatness)."

That's what the man wrote folks. A fairly simple sentence, which a number of you can't seem to comprehend. It's pretty obvious to me that he thinks Laettner is one of our greatest players ever, if not the greatest.

Instead of taking AZDUKEFAN to task for spelling or grammer errors, try actually reading what he wrote.:(

[ice-9]

Henderson is not one of the 25 best Duke players ever. But he represented the team and University well. He worked very hard to improve his game. He is very well-spoken and has stayed out of trouble. He helped Duke to return to the top pf the ACC and to win the ACC tournament this year. I will always be grateful for his emotion and play-particularly his incredible dunk - after Smith went down at Maryland. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a more emphatic display of a players concern for a teammate. So I absolutely want to see him be successful in life - including his professional career. And to begrudge him success because he didn't return for his senior year would be petty.

Definitely my favorite G moment!

And on the subject of how leaving early impacts greatness...I consider JWill one of Duke's greats and he left early (though he did graduate).

[RelativeWays]

1. Laettner had a pretty good NBA career playing for 13 years and averaging almost 13pts for his career.

2. To say that one "could care less" isn't as grammatically incorrect as people think. I for one, think the thresholds of apathy should be tested and broken. If someone has already set the precedent on how little they care about a certain subject, don't you want to beat that? Don't you want to prove its possible to care less than previously thought? Gotta test those boundaries. :D

[NSDukeFan]

I have just noticed a bit of a sense of entitlement lately from some posters. I can understand if you are not a fan of the NBA game, but I am not sure that G, or any other player, owes YOU, as a fan anything in particular.

I think if the player represents himself and the university well, as Owen Meany elegantly put it, than I believe the player has done what he owes YOU. After that, I think the player should look out what is best for him, and not what a non-NBA fan thinks is best for that fan.

[flyingdutchdevil]

It should be noted that most middle school and high school basketball players' (I said most, so please don't attack me with a couple of counter-examples) dream is to play in the NBA - not necessarily college. That makes sense - in terms of shear talent and competition, it's the highest in the world. Wouldn't you all want to be the highest possible in your respective field?

I have no grudge against G, and I appreciate what he has done in for us in the last three years and wish him the best in the future.

Lastly, while I don't think G is an all-time great, he certainly is one of the more exciting players to come through Duke.

[watzone]

Gerald Henderson will remain in the draft. I wish him the very best of luck.

http://bluedevilnation.net/?p=2191

[cbnaylor]

Thanks for the info Watzone.

Good Luck Henderson. It was fun watching you grow into a fine basketball player. I always knew from the first time you stepped on the floor, you had the ability to do it. I'm glad that you finally got out of your shell and showed the college world what you were made of. Congrats.

[Faison1]

I am so bummed......not because I expected him to be back, but because I feel like I am losing a friend......I know that sounds silly, but I really enjoyed watching Gerald. He seems like such a good kid. I will really miss him.

Good luck, G! I will always root for you.

[moonpie23]

bummmmmmmm MER.......

good luck G. i hope you get on a team that utilizes your amazing skills.

and thanks for all the thrills at DUKE...

[BlueinBlo]

I wish he would have waited a little and see where Wall goes.

[Bluedog]

I wish he would have waited a little and see where Wall goes.

If G thinks signing an agent at this juncture is the best thing for his future, then he should sign an agent. He doesn't need to worry about Wall - that's not his job. I wish G the best of luck in the NBA!

[flyingdutchdevil]

If G thinks signing an agent at this juncture is the best thing for his future, then he should sign an agent. He doesn't need to worry about Wall - that's not his job. I wish G the best of luck in the NBA!

Good luck G! Would love to see you in a Knicks jersey (and potentially playing along Lebron and/or Bosh in a few years)!