NBA Playoffs Thread

[BlueintheFace]

There are several Duke Alumni in the playoffs this year.

Shane Battier, Carlos Boozer, Shavlik Randolph, Demarcus Nelson, JJ Redick, Dahntay Jones, and others I might be forgetting will be in the playoffs this year

I just saw Demarcus Nelson jumping up and down, going crazy on the Bulls bench. What a great sight. His first year in the NBA and he gets to be in the playoffs. Very cool.

... please put your NBA playoff related thoughts on this thread.

[DukieBoy]

What happened to the times when no one could beat Boston in the Garden. Ben Gordon is currently torching Boston with 12 fourth quarter points. Chicago is up 3 with 1 minute to go. No one can stop him.

[johaad]

You can't blame them completely. KG is hurt. Now, Ray Allen being completely silent, that you can blame on them.

[DukieBoy]

What a point guard battle though.
Derek Rose - 36 points, 9 assists
Rajon Rondo - 29 points, 7 assists, 9 rebounds

[johaad]

Wow. Boston and Chicago was a game!

[Maxwell1977]

King James banks in a long distance 3 at the halftime buzzer!

[BlueintheFace]

Rose will be the best PG in the NBA in 5 years. It is really hard not to like him too. When he is being interviewed he says "Yes Ma'am... Yes Sir"... and thanks anybody interviewing him for every compliment. He is soft spoken and polite, and has amazing ability. Very likeable.

[johaad]

Rose will be the best PG in the NBA in 5 years. It is really hard not to like him too. When he is being interviewed he says "Yes Ma'am... Yes Sir"... and thanks anybody interviewing him for every compliment. He is soft spoken and polite, and has amazing ability. Very likeable.

I agree 100%. He is a phenomenal talent. I can't believe how calm he was on that big of a stage. He is very quick and seems pretty strong. Almost like a combination of Chris Paul and Deron Williams. I still think if Boston can get Ray Allen shooting like, well, Ray Allen, they will win.

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=290418022


Not impressive "stats" by any means, he shot poorly, etc...

but has the best +/- on the team. It's rare you ever see that.

[moonpie23]

lebron looks focused......could be a rough ride for the pistons....

[BlueintheFace]

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=290418022


Not impressive "stats" by any means, he shot poorly, etc...

but has the best +/- on the team. It's rare you ever see that.

Actually, it's not very rare at all for Shane (Rockets fan here). Shane rarely has impressive stats, but very very often has the best or second best +/- on the team (See- that NY Times article from last month). It's like he is magic or something. Nobody quite understands how he does it, but he does it.

[weezie]

lebron looks focused......could be a rough ride for the pistons....

For sure. The local blogs have a "Just Win One" theme for the Pistons this playoff season. They sure seem to be facing an early exit and a long rest this summer. A bit of clean-up in preparation for Chris Bosh is likely.

[Maxwell1977]

lebron looks focused......could be a rough ride for the pistons....

But a short one.

[hc5duke]

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=290418022


Not impressive "stats" by any means, he shot poorly, etc...

but has the best +/- on the team. It's rare you ever see that.

Shane played 37 minutes in a blowout. What the hell is Coach K thin... oh wait, never mind ;)

P.S. Go Rockets!
P.P.S. Yao Ming Yao Ming Yao Ming Yao Ming! Yao Ming, Yao Ming (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0Ve5j7w26I)!

[RainingThrees]

So if this is Lakers vs Cavs who wins? I'll go with the Lakers but it could be tight.

[devildownunder]

What happened to the times when no one could beat Boston in the Garden. Ben Gordon is currently torching Boston with 12 fourth quarter points. Chicago is up 3 with 1 minute to go. No one can stop him.

Perhaps it was the players, not the building. Or, maybe the leprechaun didn't care for the new digs and moved back to Galway.

[Edouble]

Perhaps it was the players, not the building. Or, maybe the leprechaun didn't care for the new digs and moved back to Galway.

Good point, albeit, it is also a different building.

[BlueintheFace]

Dahntay Jones and Chris Paul are really getting into it. Paul is playing dirty and flopping and Jones is having none of it. Technicals on both so far...

[Edouble]

Dahntay Jones and Chris Paul are really getting into it. Paul is playing dirty and flopping and Jones is having none of it. Technicals on both so far...

I am a fan of Dahntay and have defended him several times on this site, but he does appear to be instigating with some serious trash talk.

[BlueintheFace]

I am a fan of Dahntay and have defended him several times on this site, but he does appear to be instigating with some serious trash talk.

haha. Dahntay is one of the quietest guys on the Nuggets. This may be surprising to some Duke fans, but Jones got a heavy dose of humility in the NBA and is now quiet as a mouse on the floor from what I hear.

It is conceivable that Paul brings out the worst in him and he is talking a lot of mess, but my guess is that every time he talks trash, it is in response since Paul is one of the mouthiest guys in the entire league.

Paul was also voted the dirtiest players in the league two years running now according to a SI poll of players.

[RainingThrees]

Chauncey Billups is torching the Hornets right now. 8 of 9 from 3 point range and 36 points. Things look like they have the potential to go sour with all the characters on the Nuggets and the trash talking of Paul.

[DBFAN]

I pull so hard for Billups now that he is away from the pistons. I think it is great that AI landed in Detroit because he and Wallace are 2 peas in a pod

[devildownunder]

I pull so hard for Billups now that he is away from the pistons. I think it is great that AI landed in Detroit because he and Wallace are 2 peas in a pod

I actually think Wallace is a much better teammate ON THE COURT because despite his enormous ego and short temper, he actually does play a team-oriented game. Always has. AI, on the the other hand, is all about himself. He wants to win and plays all out to do so but sees no way to accomplish victory that doesn't involve him doing everything.

Still, Wallace does get himself T'd up and thrown out of games, even big games, often. That doesn't help a team.

[geraldsneighbor]

How about those 76ers? Let me enjoy it while it lasts!

[Billy Dat]

Not to hype one of our bitter rivals, but UConn alums Ray Allen and Ben Gordon has a remarkable head to head duel in the 4th quarter last night...they guarded each other down the stretch going blow for blow. It felt like Gordon scored the Bulls' last 12-14 points, each bucket putting them up by a possession, tying, or keeping them within a point or two. But, Allen had the last laugh with a dagger 3 with 2 seconds left to break a tie and keep the Celtics from an 0-2 hole. Between Allen, Gordon and Rip Hamilton, UConn has really turned out some elite 2 guards.

[Billy Dat]

Also, if I had to bet that the most famous JJ in the 2009 NBA playoffs wouldn't be a Duke alum, I'd have lost.

You gotta love Jose (JJ) Barea of the Mavs by way of that basketball superpower, Northeastern, and Puerto Rico.


http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/sportatorium/2009/04/dear_juan_jose_barea_im_sorry.phph

[moonpie23]

Also, if I had to bet that the most famous JJ in the 2009 NBA playoffs wouldn't be a Duke alum, I'd have lost.

You gotta love Jose (JJ) Barea of the Mavs ]


it MIGHT be JJ HICKSON....

oh, and....


"ball comes to allen off the screen - DAGGER!"

[BulldogDancer81]

Carlos Boozer is a BEAST. 23 points and 22 rebounds in the Jazz's 88-86 win over the Lakers in Game 3. Great game, glad to see Boozer and the Jazz get the win over the Lakers.

[Kfanarmy]

Carlos Boozer is a BEAST. 23 points and 22 rebounds in the Jazz's 88-86 win over the Lakers in Game 3. Great game, glad to see Boozer and the Jazz get the win over the Lakers.

The shot going around Gasol with less than a minute left was awesome. incredible rebounding.

[geraldsneighbor]

That Carlos Boozer guy isn't bad...

[FireOgilvie]

That was a great game. Kobe couldn't hit a shot to save his life... 5/24. Ouch. Boozer is an intimidating guy on the court... don't get in his way while he's about to score.

[Duke #33]

Boozer had a great game. His 16 rebounds in the first half was a new Jazz playoff record, and that dunk at the end of the game was nasty.

[moonpie23]

good to see booze back in form....finished with 23 pts and 22 rebounds.....very close game and had to rely on kobe to MISS to keep the win...

wow...

lakers are 2- 10 @ utah in the playoffs...

[InSpades]

Only caught the last few minutes of the Jazz-Lakers but wow was I impressed w/ Boozer. 23 and 22 and I'm pretty sure he scored 6 of the last 8 points by the Jazz. Included in there was the dunk where he went around Gasol like he wasn't even there and then threw down a left dunk as Gasol tried to recover and someone else tried to cut him off at the rim. Boozer just looked nasty out there. Great to see.

[Acymetric]

I'm having a real hard time rooting for Duke players in the playoffs this year...my top choice for finals would be Lakers/Cavs. This means I have to root against Boozer in the first round, which sucks. I guess I can at least pull for the rest in the first round, but after that...

[vb5678]

Shane was pretty good tonight, posting 16 pts, 4 rebounds, 2 steals and 4 BLOCKS in a win over Portland tonight. He also hit some clutch 3's in the 4th quarter to keep the Rockets ahead. But perhaps most impressively, he held Brandon Roy, who was coming off a 42 point game, to 19 points on 6-18 shooting.

[ice-9]

Boozer was AWESOME offensively and on the boards, but outside of the first quarter, he did a bad job defending Gasol. He just allowed Gasol too many easy high percentage shots...raise those arms Booz!

But nice to see Boozer and Battier doing well in the playoffs...miss that 2001 championship team. :)

[ldavid1]

Does anyone know anything behind JJ's two DNP's the past two games?

[moonpie23]

have no idea, but rest assured, he'll get thrown in when it's way too late and be expected to perform a miracle..

magic better get of their duffs ......76'ers aint foolin around...

[moonpie23]

i don't want to be premature, but....man....lebron looks focused...


pistons can get their fishing gear together......

[zingit]

Does anyone know anything behind JJ's two DNP's the past two games?

I'm guessing it's the typical shortening of the bench around playoff time. Which is unfortunate for JJ.

[FireOgilvie]

JJ is playing! He missed two 3s, but then he got a rebound and went the length of the court to lay it up. It was nice. Glad to see him finally get in the game. He looks pretty solid.

[BlueintheFace]

I have been watching only Shane for the first 15 minutes of this Rockets-Blazers game-4 and I am amazed. He seems to have a hand in EVERY major defensive play and sets the big screen/ makes the extra pass for EVERY momentum lifting play on the offensive end. No wonder the Rockets consider him so incredibly valuable.

Go Battier! Go Rockets!

[Edouble]

Shane finished with 14 pts., 8 rbs., and 6 assts., including two late key 3 pointers in a Rockets' victory. He was interviewed by Craig Sager after the game and sounded great as always. I still have mucho love for Shane!!!

[KandG]

Shane was exceptional in Game 4 against the Blazers. Truly a joy to watch -- making the shots off broken plays, tipping the loose balls, getting defensive stops at crucial moments. I know several NBA fans who are pretty standard and unthinking Duke haters, that nevertheless love the way he plays the game, and Shane really represents the game well.

[AluminumDuke]

Nice to hear the SportsCenter anchors giving Shane some love, referring to him as "Mr. Plus/Minus". That New York Times article has gone a long way towards getting Shane the respect that he's long deserved.

[moonpie23]

jj needs more playing time......SAM....? did you hear me?

[Billy Dat]

Shane is really raising his game when the stakes are high...did we expect anything less. In addition to all the things that folks have stated previously, he has put up two solid scoring games as well. If the Rockets can win this series, which they should, then the monkey comes off their back and they have a real legitimate shot at making the Western Conference Finals. Should the Lakers make it, you think Kobe wants to deal with the Battier/Artest 1-2 punch? Maybe Kobe's a bad example - he probably wants the challenge - but whether it's the best thing for him or not remains to be seen. Bottom line, I love watching Shane play great in big time games.

Also, how about Dahntay?! He's making life very tough for CP3 and the Hornets.

Just goes to show how great the 2001 team was...Shane, Carlos and Dahntay, all getting it done. Did Dahntay get a ring?

In other series - the Bulls/Celtics has been fantastic....what a showcase for two of the league's best young PGs in Rose and Rondo.

[A-Tex Devil]

Shane is really raising his game when the stakes are high...did we expect anything less. In addition to all the things that folks have stated previously, he has put up two solid scoring games as well. If the Rockets can win this series, which they should, then the monkey comes off their back and they have a real legitimate shot at making the Western Conference Finals. Should the Lakers make it, you think Kobe wants to deal with the Battier/Artest 1-2 punch? Maybe Kobe's a bad example - he probably wants the challenge - but whether it's the best thing for him or not remains to be seen. Bottom line, I love watching Shane play great in big time games.

Also, how about Dahntay?! He's making life very tough for CP3 and the Hornets.

Just goes to show how great the 2001 team was...Shane, Carlos and Dahntay, all getting it done. Did Dahntay get a ring?

In other series - the Bulls/Celtics has been fantastic....what a showcase for two of the league's best young PGs in Rose and Rondo.

Shane was amazing yesterday. I got lucky enough to go to the game, and the Houston fans have finally come around the second half of this season. I think Michael Lewis and the increasing visibility of the +/- as a tool in evaluating effectiveness has a little to do with that. But I was so sick of hearing fellow Houston fans (1) asking why Shane Battier was playing so many minutes when his stats weren't any good and (2) constantly comparing his stat line to Rudy Gay's stat line (the guy Battier was in essence traded for).

Here's hoping Scola's (and Landry's) effective midrange game yesterday will continue and force the Blazers out of the 2 on 1 wrestling match they've got going on with Yao in the blocks. Oden and Przyzyzyzyzyzbilla are defending admirably, but they are also bringing back memories of Charles Oakley, Charles Smith and Anthony Mason circa 1993-1994.

[moonpie23]

if i remember correctly, shane's first rookie game against kobe did not go well for shane....in fact, i think shane got schooled pretty good. i remember the announcers saying "battier is not at duke anymore, and this is kobe bryant!"

tried to find some stats on that game, but this crap internet thing doesn't work right... :(

[SilkyJ]

JJ is playing! He missed two 3s, but then he got a rebound and went the length of the court to lay it up. It was nice. Glad to see him finally get in the game. He looks pretty solid.

That layup was pretty impressive. He took it coast to coast on a mini-break, split the D and switched hands from his right to left in mid-air to avoid getting blocked for a pretty finish. But I thought JJ could only shoot :rolleyes:

I watched him carefully and even on the defensive end you could see that he does little things: boxing out the much bigger Thaddeus young on one play, collapsing to the middle on penetration, rotating on drive and kicks, etc. etc. He is going to make an impact in the NBA before all is said and done.



In other series - the Bulls/Celtics has been fantastic....what a showcase for two of the league's best young PGs in Rose and Rondo.

Don't forgot about Ben Gordon. Now I am not the biggest Gordon fan, but he has been really, really impressive in several games, not to mention he has been great in the clutch, which is what distinguishes you in the playoffs.

[CDu]

Don't forgot about Ben Gordon. Now I am not the biggest Gordon fan, but he has been really, really impressive in several games, not to mention he has been great in the clutch, which is what distinguishes you in the playoffs.

Gordon is an incredibly frustrating and tantalizing talent. When he's on, he's devastatingly good shooter/scorer. Oh, is it fun to watch when he's on. Anything and everything he throws up there goes in. But he is worse than useless when he's not on, and he goes through game-long stretches of being not on.

It would be nice if he brought anything else to the table so that when he isn't scoring he's still productive. But he's a pretty poor defensive player and an indifferent player on offense when he's not scoring. He has the skill set to do so much more, though.

[Edouble]

Just goes to show how great the 2001 team was...Shane, Carlos and Dahntay, all getting it done. Did Dahntay get a ring?


He did. :o

[BlueintheFace]

Shane was amazing yesterday. I got lucky enough to go to the game, and the Houston fans have finally come around the second half of this season. I think Michael Lewis and the increasing visibility of the +/- as a tool in evaluating effectiveness has a little to do with that. But I was so sick of hearing fellow Houston fans (1) asking why Shane Battier was playing so many minutes when his stats weren't any good and (2) constantly comparing his stat line to Rudy Gay's stat line (the guy Battier was in essence traded for).

Here's hoping Scola's (and Landry's) effective midrange game yesterday will continue and force the Blazers out of the 2 on 1 wrestling match they've got going on with Yao in the blocks. Oden and Przyzyzyzyzyzbilla are defending admirably, but they are also bringing back memories of Charles Oakley, Charles Smith and Anthony Mason circa 1993-1994.

That's weird. As a Rockets fan, I have always had the impression that Rockets fans were the only ones to appreciate Shane. Most Rockets fans I know think he has always been far more valuable than the population at large believes and that he is probably the second to last person the Rockets would ever want to trade (behind Yao). Additionally, I've never run in to a Rockets fan that liked Rudy Gay... ever. I guess we travel in different Rockets fan circles...

[A-Tex Devil]

That's weird. As a Rockets fan, I have always had the impression that Rockets fans were the only ones to appreciate Shane. Most Rockets fans I know think he has always been far more valuable than the population at large believes and that he is probably the second to last person the Rockets would ever want to trade (behind Yao). Additionally, I've never run in to a Rockets fan that liked Rudy Gay... ever. I guess we travel in different Rockets fan circles...

Unfortunately, there is a dearth of Rockets fans in my circle of friends here in Austin (all Spurs and Mavs!), so I'm left to read up online.

The grumbling about Shane from Rockets fans that I heard was mostly on the blogosphere/radio waves last year, and leading into this year, especially about his "hesitancy" to shoot on offense. It certainly wasn't informed criticism, but it was prevalent. Rudy Gay would come up in comparison last year because the Rockets traded him for Battier, and people that didn't understand team basketball would see him filling up the stat sheet not realizing he would be an awful fit for the Rockets.

[hc5duke]

https://images.websitealive.com/images/hosted/upload/8838.jpg

it's getting pretty ridiculous how many different things the Rockets are asking Shane to do

[BlueintheFace]

Unfortunately, there is a dearth of Rockets fans in my circle of friends here in Austin (all Spurs and Mavs!), so I'm left to read up online.

The grumbling about Shane from Rockets fans that I heard was mostly on the blogosphere/radio waves last year, and leading into this year, especially about his "hesitancy" to shoot on offense. It certainly wasn't informed criticism, but it was prevalent. Rudy Gay would come up in comparison last year because the Rockets traded him for Battier, and people that didn't understand team basketball would see him filling up the stat sheet not realizing he would be an awful fit for the Rockets.

Yah, what is the deal. Here in Austin there are like ZERO Rockets fans and a billion Mavs and Spurs fans...

I like it though that Shane Battier has gone from a nobody to the commercial face of the franchise in Houston. Yao takes care of the international publicity while Shane does all the ESPN interviews and local ads in Houston. What a 1-2 public relations combo.

[hc5duke]

This game wasn't televised here but it must have been very ugly

Denver 121: N.O. 63 (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2009042703) - Denver had 61 points at half-time.

[Duke #33]

Boozer and the Jazz were eliminated by the Lakers, 4-1.http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/playoffs/uthlal

[devildownunder]

Boozer and the Jazz were eliminated by the Lakers, 4-1.http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/playoffs/uthlal

The Clevelander in me (lived there for 11 years) still dreams about what might have been had the Cavs been able to keep Carlos in the fold. They may win a championship without Boozer this year or next but with him that team would have dynasty written all over it right now. '90s Bulls or '80s Lakers/Celtics dynasty.

Now before some people jump through their PC screens to attack me, no I am not suggesting that the Cavs would be as good as any of those teams if they only had Boozer. I am saying they would've rivaled those teams in championships won if they could've kept those two together.

[sagegrouse]

This game wasn't televised here but it must have been very ugly

Denver 121: N.O. 63 (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2009042703) - Denver had 61 points at half-time.

As another measure of the side of the beatdown, the plus/minus for all but two Denver players was greater than or equal to the number of minutes they played, which means that throughout their lineup, the Nuggets were outscoring the Hornets more than a point per minute. Our man Dahntay Jones, e.g., played 26 minutes and was +34. Only Chris Andersen (23 mins., +22) and J.R. Smith (21 mins., +19) fell short.

sagegrouse

[moonpie23]

https://images.websitealive.com/images/hosted/upload/8838.jpg

it's getting pretty ridiculous how many different things the Rockets are asking Shane to do

that's just funny....

[moonpie23]

i am personally giving each member of the US OLYMPIC team a 1-year NO HATIN' pass for their efforts last year...

it's a good thing too.....now i don't have stomach cramps watching carmello and the nuggets dominate! (dahntay was awesome)

it's ONLY for one year tho......he's back to being a punk after that..(carmello)

[Billy Dat]

The way this Denver team has come together has been pretty dramatic to behold (from afar, I don't follow them that closely). Can it all be pinned on the Iverson/Billups trade....I have to think that the answer is yes!

[moonpie23]

one could only derive a "probably" from that trade......i would like to think Dahntay has a bit of contribution to that equation....he's been stout...

[hc5duke]

The way this Denver team has come together has been pretty dramatic to behold (from afar, I don't follow them that closely). Can it all be pinned on the Iverson/Billups trade....I have to think that the answer is yes!

http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_nba_experts__23/ept_sports_nba_experts-449541756-1240844092.jpg?ym8s1KBDrtuuKlYh
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Photo-ABC-clowns-Billups-Iverson-trade;_ylt=AsPE5cbMLw75GGwbprhr7_e8vLYF?urn=nba,15 9199

[Classof06]

http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_nba_experts__23/ept_sports_nba_experts-449541756-1240844092.jpg?ym8s1KBDrtuuKlYh
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Photo-ABC-clowns-Billups-Iverson-trade;_ylt=AsPE5cbMLw75GGwbprhr7_e8vLYF?urn=nba,15 9199

As a Cavs fan, I was dancing in my living room once I heard Billups was traded for Iverson.

That, to me, signalled that Dumars had given up.

[Billy Dat]

The Celtics/Bulls series produced another classic last night. I am not a Celtics fan, but I marvel at Paul Pierce. The guy is getting up there in terms of miles on his tires yet is ridiculously clutch. I don't get how the Bulls didn't double team him for the huge possessions coming down the stretch...even if they left someone wide open.

For fans of college hoop, like all of us, there are also a lot of fun alma matter match-ups that happen naturally or off of switches...Pierce and Hinrich, Tyrus Thomas and Big Baby Davis, Ray Allen and Ben Gordon.

I have also really enjoyed watching Joachim Noah. I understand he is a polarizing figure, but I love the way he plays - HARD! He has also toned down his emotional outbursts because he knows the refs are waiting to T him up.

Of course, it makes me sad to watch these Baby Bulls coming into their own with Luol sitting on the bench. John Salmons is pulling a Gehrig/Wally Pipp on him - the guy is solid! Thankfully, Lu is making so much money that his spot is safe.

As for Ben Gordon, he is, perhaps, the most exasperating/exhilarating player to root for...he is a lethal offensive force that takes tons of ill advised shots - but makes tons of them too. Plus, he plays no defense. As a Knick fan, he kind of reminds me of John Starks, but Starks wasn't as gifted on O, but was far better on D. Both excelled at, "Don't shoot...don't shoot....YES!"

Hopefully Shane and the Rockets can finish off the Blazers after missing a chance to do so last night.

[dukeENG2003]

It was a good game BUT. . .

That foul at the end was a flagrant, no doubt about it though. It made me sick to see Doc River's say "that was a great foul". Rondo should have been ejected for that crap, and probably would have been if it occurred at any other point in the game. A shot directly to the head, not play on the ball whatsoever. What more does it take to call a flagrant?

Should Miller have hit the free throws to tie? YES. But regardless, the bulls should have had posession afterwards, which would mean after missing the first, he could hit the second, and the bulls could go for the win on an out of bounds play. Instead, missing the first doomed them to have to try the "intentional miss" strategy which never works. I hate people pointing to "well he missed the free throws so it doesn't matter". He missed ONE, yes, the second was an intentional miss dictated by the situation and the missed call.

[dukeENG2003]

As a Cavs fan, I was dancing in my living room once I heard Billups was traded for Iverson.

That, to me, signalled that Dumars had given up.


Far from it. He's planning for next year. Iverson's contract is huge, and expires after this year, which puts him in the running for a couple other decent players who will become available, including Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Carmello Anthony, Steve Nash, Manu Ginobili, Chris Bosh, Amare Stoudemire, Joe Johnson, Paul Pierce, Dirk Nowitzki, Tracy McGrady etc.

Freeing up $11M in cap space for that batch of free agents makes a lot of sense if you ask me. Dumars realized that he wasn't gonna win a title with this team (which he wasn't even with Billups, thats a fact). Instead, he's planning for the future, which is smart.

[SilkyJ]

I know there are mixed opinions on Bill Simmons over here (especially b/c he does NOT have mixed opinions abut Duke) but a little excerpt from today's column:

Q: Who is the most underrated player in the playoffs?

Dahntay Jones. Totally underrated. Premier defender, agitator and chemistry guy. Takes nothing off the table. Even came up with a new spelling for "Dante." I like everything I'm seeing. I'd pick Perkins second, Aaron Brooks third, and Tyson Chandler last. Three other guys worth mentioning while we're here:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090429&sportCat=nba

[SilkyJ]

Just watched today's PTI (west coast...dvr..) and two things: 1) Danny ferry did 5 good minutes, nothing groundbreaking but cool and 2) Kornheiser said Battier has blown off PTI 3 times and would never be getting on the show. Now it was hard to say how serious he was. Definitely some half-halfheartedness to the comments, but he also brought it out of nowhere. Wilbon was pretending to be Yao Ming during role play, and at the end Tony made a point to bring up "his teammate shane battier" and say he wasnt ever allowed back on b/c he blew them off...

Just really surprised me...then again, shane reads a 40 page scouting report before each game so I guess he's busy :)

(tho probably not before each game of a series with the same team...)

[blueprofessor]

It was a good game BUT. . .

That foul at the end was a flagrant, no doubt about it though. It made me sick to see Doc River's say "that was a great foul". Rondo should have been ejected for that crap, and probably would have been if it occurred at any other point in the game. A shot directly to the head, not play on the ball whatsoever. What more does it take to call a flagrant?

Should Miller have hit the free throws to tie? YES. But regardless, the bulls should have had posession afterwards, which would mean after missing the first, he could hit the second, and the bulls could go for the win on an out of bounds play. Instead, missing the first doomed them to have to try the "intentional miss" strategy which never works. I hate people pointing to "well he missed the free throws so it doesn't matter". He missed ONE, yes, the second was an intentional miss dictated by the situation and the missed call.

If it had been ruled a penalty 2 flagrant foul (excessive contact that was intentional) , there would be an ejection, with 2 foul shots and possession.The fouled player's coach could have selected anyone on the team to shoot the foul shots if the fouled player could not shoot them(he would be subbed out but could return after a legal touch).
http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_12.html?nav=ArticleList

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

[blueprofessor]

http://jay-mariotti.fanhouse.com/

Good discussion of the various fouls and inconsistent calls.

Best--Blue Prof :)

[Turk]

Silky, thanks for posting the chunk from the Simmons column about Dahntay. I've always been perplexed why people would slam Simmons just because he's not a Duke fan. He doesn't pay much attention to college ball, but then again this is the "NBA playoffs" thread. I think he's right more often than he's wrong, and he's always funny...

[SilkyJ]

Silky, thanks for posting the chunk from the Simmons column about Dahntay. I've always been perplexed why people would slam Simmons just because he's not a Duke fan. He doesn't pay much attention to college ball, but then again this is the "NBA playoffs" thread. I think he's right more often than he's wrong, and he's always funny...

I've been a fan of his for years now and I agree that he's always funny and usually makes several good and usually contrarian or inflammatory points. I don't like the Duke bashing, especially b/c he's usually pretty rationale (except when talking about his own teams) but at this point I'm so used to Duke bashing that I just kind of skip over it mentally.

[Acymetric]

Did something happen in the Bulls-Celts game or was that from an earlier game? I saw some clips of some kind of fight in a restaurant, but just briefly and with no audio...what happened?

[CDu]

Did something happen in the Bulls-Celts game or was that from an earlier game? I saw some clips of some kind of fight in a restaurant, but just briefly and with no audio...what happened?

It was this game. Rondo literally threw Hinrich out of bounds as Hinrich was boxing him out. Hinrich took exception and and shoved Rondo in the chest. Flagrant one on Rondo and technical on Hinrich.

[Acymetric]

Is there anything better than watching the Celtics blow it? Thanks for the details about the incident, by the way!

[CDu]

Is there anything better than watching the Celtics blow it? Thanks for the details about the incident, by the way!

As a Bulls fan, I feel like they're the ones that are blowing it. They should have won game 5, and the Celtics are clearly a different team without KG. But yes, I have been enjoying seeing the Celtics look not so hot.

[Acymetric]

As a Bulls fan, I feel like they're the ones that are blowing it. They should have won game 5, and the Celtics are clearly a different team without KG. But yes, I have been enjoying seeing the Celtics look not so hot.

Well, I specifically meant letting an essentially tied game get away from them like it has so far. Here's hoping the Bulls hold on. I'm no bulls fan, in fact I got a little frustrated with them when Duhon was there, but I just plain don't like the Celtics.

[BlueintheFace]

This Celtics-Bulls series has led me to come to two conclusions:

1) Rondo is underrated
2) Rondo is a DIRTY player. Like really Dirty, and not just because of the flagrant foul he got away with. I've gone from liking him to really resenting how he plays in just one series.

[CDu]

Well, I specifically meant letting an essentially tied game get away from them like it has so far. Here's hoping the Bulls hold on. I'm no bulls fan, in fact I got a little frustrated with them when Duhon was there, but I just plain don't like the Celtics.

Like I said, the Bulls are the ones blowing it. They just gave away a 12 point lead thanks to a 17-3 run. Celts lead, 93-91.

[CDu]

This Celtics-Bulls series has led me to come to two conclusions:

1) Rondo is underrated
2) Rondo is a DIRTY player. Like really Dirty, and not just because of the flagrant foul he got away with. I've gone from liking him to really resenting how he plays in just one series.

Agreed. He's good, but he's dirty.

[Acymetric]

Like I said, the Bulls are the ones blowing it. They just gave away a 12 point lead thanks to a 17-3 run. Celts lead, 93-91.

Ugh...yeah I spoke too soon. Hopefully they can rally here though.

[CDu]

Ugh...yeah I spoke too soon. Hopefully they can rally here though.

They're done. It's unfortunate for the Bulls, but they really don't know how to finish. They had double-digit fourth quarter leads in games 5 and 6, and they're going to lose both of them to get eliminated.

Edit: perhaps I spoke too soon. The Bulls just made a 10-2 run to tie it with 4 seconds to go. Craziness.

[BlueintheFace]

I've never seen a more entertaining first round series than this Bulls-Celtics series. I have also never seen so many stupid plays by players paired with stupid coaching decisions to make these games so dramatic. It is almost painful to watch sometimes, but gosh darnit... I can't look away.

[BlueintheFace]

Let's be honest. The Bulls do not have a coach. There is an animatronic robot. They call him vinny del negro. How do you not foul Ray allen when he puts the ball on the deck? It's disgusting how terribly that team is coached.

[Bluedog]

Let's be honest. The Bulls do not have a coach. There is an animatronic robot. They call him vinny del negro. How do you not foul Ray allen when he puts the ball on the deck? It's disgusting how terribly that team is coached.

Not only that...but how do you not instruct Rose to miss the second free throw after missing the first when the Bulls are up 1 with 3 seconds left at the Celtics have no timeouts?!?!? Rose ended up missing it anyways, but it was definitely by accident and he was mad about it. WHAAA? :eek: Much much harder to go the length of the court in less than 3 seconds after rebounding a miss then being able to take it out of bounds and be able to make a half court pass. It's almost as pathetic as Miller not being able to miss his freethrow on purpose and hit the rim (in game 3?). He's an 85% free throw shooter but doesn't know how to miss and hit the rim? What? I don't understand how these players/coaches have such immense talent and skills, but have stupid strategic blunders all the time.

Having said that, HUGE win by the Bulls and I'm happy. But yeah, terrible coaching in this series. Bulls should have won this game three times. You CANNOT give somebody that three. Bulls got super lucky Allen's toe was on the line (was it second OT ?) so his shot didn't tie it. But yeah, the one you're talking about was a three.. Stupid. Very exciting and frustrating to watch at the same time. Doug Collins would have been a better coach from the Bulls - it's obvious from his commentary. Mismanagement of timeouts up the wazoo by the Bulls in this series too.

[WiJoe]

That turkey hinrich can't shoot a left-handed layup. I saw a freshman girl make a number of lefty layups in game competition and was thrilled to see. it.

F
u
n
d
a
m
e
n
t
a
l
s

:D

[tysi1521]

It's amazing how I instantly become a fan of whoever the Celtics play in the playoffs, that's just how much I hate them. Last year it was the Hawks, this year it's the Bulls. I'm just tired of watching Paul Pierce shoot step-back 18 footers.

[Billy Dat]

Amazing series for all the reasons discussed - breathtaking competence and incompetence.

I was just happy that the Bulls finally wised up in the overtimes and doubled Pierce on big possessions. Tomorrow is going to be another nailbiter - the Bulls have the advantage of much younger legs but the Celtics have the champions fight and know how.

Did anyone else think the Bulls were better down the stretch with Gordon out? He is the perfect example of the plusses and minuses of the series.

As for Rondo - he can play on my team any day, so can Joachim.

[hc5duke]

That turkey hinrich can't shoot a left-handed layup. I saw a freshman girl make a number of lefty layups in game competition and was thrilled to see. it.

F
u
n
d
a
m
e
n
t
a
l
s

:D

to be fair this was after playing 40+ minutes, and I want to see a replay again, because I think Rondo touched the rim and/or the ball on its way down.

[CDu]

That turkey hinrich can't shoot a left-handed layup. I saw a freshman girl make a number of lefty layups in game competition and was thrilled to see. it.

F
u
n
d
a
m
e
n
t
a
l
s

:D

That's harsh. It's an NBA playoff game with a few seconds left. For one, I've seen Hinrich make plenty of lefty layups. But more importantly, Hinrich didn't miss the layup because he shot right-handed. He missed it because he got nervous and short-armed it up there.

Also, when no one is defending you (as was the case there), it doesn't make much difference which hand with which you shoot the layup. The only specific reason to shoot a left-handed layup from the left side is to use your body as a bit of a shield from the defender. Otherwise, it's merely a comfort thing.

[CDu]

As a Bulls fan, this series has been exciting and frustrating simultaneously. The Bulls make so many stupid mistakes in the half-court it's amazing. Part of that I guess is being led by a rookie PG and two streaky wings, and having virtually zero offensive skill from their post guys. But it's hard to watch sometimes.

I will say this: Del Negro drew up a few gems late in the game last night. The inbounds play in which Hinrich missed the layup was a fantastic call. He had a few other good ones. It's a shame he can't put it all together - every now and again something good comes out of his brain.

I'm guessing there's never been an NBA playoff series that has gone to as many overtimes as this one. It's been ridiculous.

[slower]

This Celtics-Bulls series has led me to come to two conclusions:

1) Rondo is underrated
2) Rondo is a DIRTY player. Like really Dirty, and not just because of the flagrant foul he got away with. I've gone from liking him to really resenting how he plays in just one series.

are led by their spiritual punk-in-chief, KG. I detest that guy. And this whole series has just been one long string of muggings. Exciting theater, but very frustrating to watch.

[RelativeWays]

Isn't this Del Negro's first year being a HC in the NBA? Cut him a little slack. He seems to have his team believing they can win and he's got experience as a player on his side. Soon NCSU will probably gun for him if Big Sid doesn't work out.

[moonpie23]

man, i love watching dUUUUUU-WAAAAYYYNNNNEEEEE WADDDDDDDDDDDEEEEEEE play basketball.....that final block he put on the hawks was fantastic.....

[CDu]

are led by their spiritual punk-in-chief, KG. I detest that guy. And this whole series has just been one long string of muggings. Exciting theater, but very frustrating to watch.

Agreed. It's funny. Garnett has gotten this team to think of themselves as warriors. Prior to his arrival, Pierce was just a selfish player who shot spin fadeaway jumpers. Allen was just a shooter. Nothing about those guys' games have changed, but they strut around, glare at their opponents, get chippy and whiny quickly, and try to put on an intimidating persona. Perkins was just a chubby underachiever. Now he's become physical and plays with an angry look on his face in an attempt to look intimidating.

The problem is that, unlike KG, none of the other players really can back up the intensity persona without just being hackers. Garnett is actually a phenomenal defensive player. The rest of the guys (except for Rondo, who IS a really good defender when he's not comitting flagrant fouls) are hacks.

[ambitiouspear]

Q: Who is the most underrated player in the playoffs?

Dahntay Jones.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090429&sportCat=nba

[turnandburn55]

I saw the same thing...

It's nice to see that while players like Battier, Duhon, and Jones never became "superstars", each has garnered a healthy level of respect in the NBA as very good floor players and guys who are true team guys.

[NovaScotian]

for a guy who has given duke no love in the past, it's really nice to see him say something good about a former player who some have pointed to as an example of a failed pro. that said, bill simmons is the best sports writer of my generation, and his nba knowledge is fantastic. as opposed to many of the other doofuses on page 2 and elsewhere at TWWL, he really knows what he's talking about. his comments on dahntay mean a lot.

[Atlanta Duke]

for a guy who has given duke no love in the past, it's really nice to see him say something good about a former player who some have pointed to as an example of a failed pro. that said, bill simmons is the best sports writer of my generation, and his nba knowledge is fantastic. as opposed to many of the other doofuses on page 2 and elsewhere at TWWL, he really knows what he's talking about. his comments on dahntay mean a lot.

J.J. Redick will be starting in the Celtics-Magic series and apparently will be guarding Ray Allen- don't hold your breath waiting for Celtics homer Simmons to say something good about Redick in that match-up.

[moonpie23]

jj will have his hands full......hope he has a good effort on that....i really wanna see JJ have a good series...

[DukeFanInTerpLand]

At least he doesn't have to guard Gordon. Allen has several inches on JJ but is not nearly as quick.

(Not saying Allen won't be a challenge, he's been a monster in the playoffs.)

[moonpie23]

as long as JJ pops a 3 at the other end, he can handle a guy getting around him some.... ;)

[hc5duke]

Redick 12pt : Allen 9pt
clearly the deciding factor in the game ;)
The boxscore says -7 for his +/- but a lot of that had to do with Alston IMO

[vb5678]

It was really nice to see JJ icing the free throws at the end of the Orlando-Boston game. He also outscored Ray Allen! Hopefully, he can build on this and have a great series.

[RainingThrees]

The magic tried to shoot themselves out of this game and almost gave it back to the Celtics. Thankfully the game ended before the Celtics could complete the comeback, and JJ iced it with 4 clutch free throws.

[TaiAdmiral]

Nasty, nasty cut that Shane Battier just got...

[Turk]

Woe is me. I get see only 3 or 4 uninterrupted quarters scattered across all 7 games of the Bulls - Celts classic. So tonight the schedule miraculously clears and I watch the first game of Celts - Magic in (mostly) peace and quiet, hoping JJ does well.

Where to begin? Celts sleepwalk as Magic drift out to 28 point lead when they miss fewer bricks than the C's. Scalabrine and Turkogulu (no relation) look like two guys you'd rather not have on your team in a pickup game at the Y. Rondo even airballs a free throw, and later loses the ball because he likes to let it roll to half court after a made basket. Fortunately the knucklehead for Orlando lets him steal it back on the same play, so they're even. Celts finally wake up and play a bit of ball in the 4th quarter, and almost force Magic to choke and cough up the game. However, Rondo gets the ball on the break, spots a wide open Ray Allen, and promptly turns it over by throwing a crisp pass right at Allen's ankles. JJ is merely adequate and is not on the floor with the game on the line, and only comes in to ice the game with free throws.

My eyes are still burning from the collective stink emanting from the TV. Good thing I had an empty stomach or it would have been messy, Blech.

[Turk]

Nasty, nasty cut that Shane Battier just got...

Looked worse than it is, I think. Shane is making Kobe work for his points, forcing him to shoot jumpers and keeping him out of the lane (of course it helps to have Yao watching your back). Rockets by 3 at start of 4th quarter. Much better basketball than that Celts - Magic high school JV game.

OMG!! In a sideline interview at the start of the 4th quarter, Phil Jackson just asked Craig Sager why he was wearing a "Bozo the Clown" suit!!

[BlueintheFace]

My Rockets played ugly, played hard-nosed defense, and pulled off the Game 1 upset. Shane did exactly what you have to do with Kobe... make him shoot all jumpers. Beautiful!

[Duke #33]

Battier played very good defense on Kobe in the Rockets game 1. Kobe shot 14-31, and couple of those baskets were at the end with easy dunks. http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2009050413

[ice-9]

Kobe shot 14-31 which seems pretty good, but when you break it down to how he shot vs. specific defenders, one stat jumps out (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-090505 - look at #8)

VS. Shane Battier: 8-22.

Who's your daddy??

The Lakers are gonna be on fire in Game 2 though.

[moonpie23]

i could be wrong, but.....kobe actually looked like shane was getting under his skin a bit.....he had to work really hard for his 32. at first, kobe was like, business as usual....but as the game wore on, his body language was, "this guy can't guard me" and when he missed, most of the time it was DIRECTLY because of shane's D. kobe was looking for help from the refs.



i love kobe, and the playoffs ARE the grand arena for him... but, i also love knowing he has a legit nemesis...a dukie... .) even Yao was giving shane some shout out after the game..


look for kobe to try to do even more in game 2...


also, awesome to see JJ salt away the old men..

[Billy Dat]

TURK - good review of the Celtics/Magic game. It really was a sad display. However, and I may have been wearing my Duke-colored glasses, but the Magic seem to play better on offense when JJ is in the game. The Celtics certainly respect his shooting ability so he draws attention, and he was really effective doing what he did at Duke, cutting hard off screens to free himself, making the defense adjust, and moving the ball to the open man. The alternative, as you said, was Turk bringing the ball up and launching a 3 or Lewis jab step faking his man for 6 seconds from the corner only to pull up for a 3. That ball doesn't go inside enough to Howard. Looks like JJ is on the Q1/Q3 platoon but he played well enough last night to stay on the floor for those minutes.

What cracked me up about the Laker post game comments was that they basicallt echo exactly what the NY Times article said about opposite teams not seeing Shane's impact on the other team - "we were off our game", "we couldn't have played worse", etc. etc. I hope they'll be saying the same thing 3 more times.

Bottom line, all 3 Duke players still involved in the playoffs are starting, which makes it even more fun to watch.

[moonpie23]

What cracked me up about the Laker post game comments was that they basicallt echo exactly what the NY Times article said about opposite teams not seeing Shane's impact on the other team - "we were off our game", "we couldn't have played worse", etc. etc. I hope they'll be saying the same thing 3 more times.




exactly.....this series IS going to be Shane V. Kobe.. now that, to some (and maybe true) has a funny ring to it, because, come, let's face it NO ONE can be V. Kobe and not risk awakening the best (or 2nd best so's not to start a new thread) player in the NBA....

but if the lakers allow it to be about kobe beating shane, they lose this series...simple as that....

this is where philip and kobe have to be smarter..

i think it's gonna be a thrilling series..

go duke(ies)

[Kfanarmy]

Did anyone else think Kobe Bryant deserved a T for the elbow to the back of the head while he was trying to extricate himself from the pileup in the first half. Looked to me like Bryant intentionally elbowed Shane in frustration.

[TheBrianZoubekExperience]

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-40-17/David-Thorpe-on-a-Telling-Sign-of-a-Well-Coached-Defense.html

----

"Last night, Thorpe says he saw the Magic's J.J. Redick do something uncommon. As soon as it was clear that Boston had secured an offensive rebound, Redick sprinted to find his man, shooter Eddie House, who was wide-open and spotted up at the 3-point line. The Celtics weren't even looking for House yet. Redick made sure they would not find him open.

A lot of defenders would consider it their job to get to House as fast as possible once he caught the ball," says Thorpe. "But Orlando had the best-rated defense in the regular season because they do smart things like getting out there before he could even catch the pass."

In the late game last night, Thorpe noticed Houston's Shane Battier doing the same thing several times.

"Sometimes, when a shot's coming off the rim, you'll see Battier sprinting across the floor for no apparent reason," says Thorpe. "But as the ball is rebounded, and the team looks for scoring options, you'll see he's in place to stop a pass to a scorer that most of us couldn't have even imagined a few seconds before."

This particular move -- getting to the shooters quickly after an offensive rebound -- has a limited effect in most games. But to Thorpe's eyes, it's a tidy sign of a defense that is being driven by active minds. "

---

[moonpie23]

i don't think kobe is a "dirty" player, but, i don't think he's the squeakiest guy on the court either..


ever notice how the lakers start to thug out in the waning moments of the game when they are losing? :rolleyes:

look for more blood in this series...

[Billy Dat]

This series is a heck of a platform for Shane, and his best opportunity to date to cement his NBA legacy. He's 30 years old which typically translates to the prime of an NBA players career as it is roughly where peak physical talent and knowledge of the game tend to intersect as one decreases and the other increases. He is facing the greatest current one-on-one offensive force in the game deeper in the playoffs than a team he (Shane) plays for has ever progressed. He has received vast publicity as a pro for the first time as a result of that NY Times article, an article no doubt sitting in the locker of his opponent, Kobe, who exists to prove that "NO ONE CAN GUARD ME!"

Watching Shane play in the playoffs so far, you get the sense that he feels this is the time. I fully expect to see some great things from him over the next week or so.

[moonpie23]

Phil Jackson just asked Craig Sager why he was wearing a "Bozo the Clown" suit!!


dood......sager deserved every bit of that.... ugh....that suit had bruce pearl written all over it......

[Oriole Way]

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-40-17/David-Thorpe-on-a-Telling-Sign-of-a-Well-Coached-Defense.html

----

"Last night, Thorpe says he saw the Magic's J.J. Redick do something uncommon. As soon as it was clear that Boston had secured an offensive rebound, Redick sprinted to find his man, shooter Eddie House, who was wide-open and spotted up at the 3-point line. The Celtics weren't even looking for House yet. Redick made sure they would not find him open.

A lot of defenders would consider it their job to get to House as fast as possible once he caught the ball," says Thorpe. "But Orlando had the best-rated defense in the regular season because they do smart things like getting out there before he could even catch the pass."

In the late game last night, Thorpe noticed Houston's Shane Battier doing the same thing several times.

"Sometimes, when a shot's coming off the rim, you'll see Battier sprinting across the floor for no apparent reason," says Thorpe. "But as the ball is rebounded, and the team looks for scoring options, you'll see he's in place to stop a pass to a scorer that most of us couldn't have even imagined a few seconds before."

This particular move -- getting to the shooters quickly after an offensive rebound -- has a limited effect in most games. But to Thorpe's eyes, it's a tidy sign of a defense that is being driven by active minds. "

---

Glad J.J. is making the most of his limited opportunity. It just sucks that Lee will be coming back soon.

Watching Battier play defense is amazing. He's simply on another level in terms of intelligence, hustle, and skill. Reading Michael Lewis' piece on him recently has made me watch him even more closely and it will be interesting to see if Battier can continue to pester Kobe and give the Lakers problems.

[sagegrouse]

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-40-17/David-Thorpe-on-a-Telling-Sign-of-a-Well-Coached-Defense.html

----

"Last night, Thorpe says he saw the Magic's J.J. Redick do something uncommon. As soon as it was clear that Boston had secured an offensive rebound, Redick sprinted to find his man, shooter Eddie House, who was wide-open and spotted up at the 3-point line. The Celtics weren't even looking for House yet. Redick made sure they would not find him open.

A lot of defenders would consider it their job to get to House as fast as possible once he caught the ball," says Thorpe. "But Orlando had the best-rated defense in the regular season because they do smart things like getting out there before he could even catch the pass."

In the late game last night, Thorpe noticed Houston's Shane Battier doing the same thing several times.

"Sometimes, when a shot's coming off the rim, you'll see Battier sprinting across the floor for no apparent reason," says Thorpe. "But as the ball is rebounded, and the team looks for scoring options, you'll see he's in place to stop a pass to a scorer that most of us couldn't have even imagined a few seconds before."

This particular move -- getting to the shooters quickly after an offensive rebound -- has a limited effect in most games. But to Thorpe's eyes, it's a tidy sign of a defense that is being driven by active minds. "

---

Ya think the coaching at Duke had something to do with this level of defensive alertness??

sagegrouse

[SilkyJ]

At least he doesn't have to guard Gordon. Allen has several inches on JJ but is not nearly as quick.

(Not saying Allen won't be a challenge, he's been a monster in the playoffs.)

JJ is 6'4" and Ray Allen is 6'5"

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=9
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=3024


Looked worse than it is, I think. Shane is making Kobe work for his points, forcing him to shoot jumpers and keeping him out of the lane (of course it helps to have Yao watching your back). Rockets by 3 at start of 4th quarter. Much better basketball than that Celts - Magic high school JV game.

When I saw this happen live, I remember thinking that just maybe Shane intentionally didn't wipe the blood off of his face in order to make it look bad b/c the refs didn't call a foul, which was absurd, and this way the refs realize what a blown call that was and "owe" shane to an extent, which is important given he guards the other team's best player.

After all, it only took 4 stitches to close the wound, and after seeing all that blood, you would think it would have taken more. (of course the # of stitches depends on how quickly you're trying to close it up, who is doing it, etc etc)



OMG!! In a sideline interview at the start of the 4th quarter, Phil Jackson just asked Craig Sager why he was wearing a "Bozo the Clown" suit!!

Sager's sports jacket collection is one of the most hideous and tacky compilations of clothes i have ever seen.

[A-Tex Devil]

Last night was awesome. But make no mistake, Kobe KILLED the Rockets this year, especially in the 4th quarter, and I expect he'll do it at least twice this series.

Last night was less about Kobe being off, I think, than Pau Gasol playing about the worst game i've ever seen him play. I think the Rockets have the tools to upset the Lakers, but even after stealing home court, it is going to be really, really tough. They need to get greedy and steal another one tomorrow night.

[sagegrouse]

JJ is 6'4" and Ray Allen is 6'5"

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=9
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=3024




I have no idea of Ray Allen's actual height. Presumably 6-3 or 6-4, rather than 6-5.

JJ is really 6-4. JJ's official measurements at the NBA Pre-Draft Camp were unique in two respects. He was a full 6-4 without shoes; no one else was actually as tall as his listed height. And his wingspan was only 6-3 1/4, which gave rise to Sagegrouse's Annual JJ Redick Flipper Award, for players at the Pre-Draft Camp whose wingspan is less than their height. Usually, no one wins.


sagegrouse

[moonpie23]

Kobe KILLED the Rockets this year, especially in the 4th quarter,

which is exactly what he DIDN'T do last night......i suspect that kobe's ego will wind up aiding the rockets to a certain extent...


if they can beat the lakers in game 2, they can take the series..


another added sideshow is Yao....man, he wants the NEXT round bad...

[hc5duke]

When I saw this happen live, I remember thinking that just maybe Shane intentionally didn't wipe the blood off of his face in order to make it look bad b/c the refs didn't call a foul, which was absurd, and this way the refs realize what a blown call that was and "owe" shane to an extent, which is important given he guards the other team's best player.

After all, it only took 4 stitches to close the wound, and after seeing all that blood, you would think it would have taken more. (of course the # of stitches depends on how quickly you're trying to close it up, who is doing it, etc etc)

He's got his warrior (or is it Tru Warier :D) face paint on:
http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/cc/fullj.01eeefde25d38bbcec31d5b79fcf8e88/01eeefde25d38bbcec31d5b79fcf8e88-getty-86316475ng008_rckts_lakers.jpg

Also love this picture:
http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/getty/62/fullj.285e3c7e87b72a72c7e11d266c7b4016/285e3c7e87b72a72c7e11d266c7b4016-getty-86316475mw034_houston_rocke.jpg

[Classof06]

I'll echo what Billy Dat alluded to on the previous page and say that I find it funny how everyone rips Duke for not producing NBA players, yet there are players like JJ, Shane and Dahntay Jones making strong contributions on pretty successful teams. Off the top of my head, I honestly can't think of any Carolina players still in the playoffs.

I know JJ hasn't gotten a lot of run this season but he's exemplified the word "professional" by being ready when his number was called. I've said for a while and I'll say it again, JJ Redick will always have a place in the NBA and his defensive deficiencies are vastly overrated. He'll never be 1st Team All-NBA defense but I'm tired of people saying he can't play in the NBA. That's simply untrue.

[ice-9]

I'll echo what Billy Dat alluded to on the previous page and say that I find it funny how everyone rips Duke for not producing NBA players, yet there are players like JJ, Shane and Dahntay Jones making strong contributions on pretty successful teams. Off the top of my head, I honestly can't think of any Carolina players still in the playoffs.

I know JJ hasn't gotten a lot of run this season but he's exemplified the word "professional" by being ready when his number was called. I've said for a while and I'll say it again, JJ Redick will always have a place in the NBA and his defensive deficiencies are vastly overrated. He'll never be 1st Team All-NBA defense but I'm tired of people saying he can't play in the NBA. That's simply untrue.


True that. The sad fact of the matter is we live in a culture that rewards and recognizes superstars, not solid team contributors. We are really, really good in developing the latter, and probably just average in producing the former.

That's why Michael Lewis' article on Battier was so huge -- it was one of the first big pieces to try and shift our perception of what exactly constitutes a superstar. I.e., it's not the guy who puts up big numbers in a losing effort; it's the guy who does whatever is necessary to get the team a win.

[Billy Dat]

We are really, really good in developing the latter, and probably just average in producing the former.

Which leads to the chicken vs egg debate:
If Shane, Dahntay and JJ played for Jim Calhoun, would they have been NBA All Stars and if Rip Hamilton and Ray Allen had played for K, would they have been NBA roll players?

At the heart of this argument...is K subpar at developing elite talent or is he generally not working with the same level of elite talent as other coaches? This debate shouldn't hijack this thread - but it is relevant to bring it up in response to your comments - which I think are worth debating.

Of course, the All Stars that K has produced...Laettner, Hill, Brand, Boozer...would suggest that elite talent rises to the top as long as it has excellent coaching along the way.

[Turk]

Did anyone else think Kobe Bryant deserved a T for the elbow to the back of the head while he was trying to extricate himself from the pileup in the first half. Looked to me like Bryant intentionally elbowed Shane in frustration.

Yeah, I saw that too but am still unsure whether it was flagrant enough for a T or whether Kobe got the star treatment. I guess if a Celtic can smack an oppponent in the face hard enough to knock out a couple of teeth as he drives to the basket for a game-tying layup without getting a T, a Laker throwing a little elbow to the head coming out of a pileup also gets a free pass. It's only fair. Seriously, they had already called a loose ball foul on Kobe, and although the intent and the action was certainly there, I don't think he really connected with Shane. Best I would expect is maybe one of those "on further review" fines for the blow.

Moonpie, I am wondering if the Rockets might have the better overall matchups, at least with the starters. Yao and Scola can handle Gasol and Bynum, Artest will keep Odom under control and Odom is a headcase anyway, and to rip off Simmons, I can see the fork sticking out of Fisher as Brooks is running circles around him. Kobe is the best player on the floor, but the Rockets might be the better team.

And yes, I thought Yao stepped up when the Lakers made their run and the game was on the line. He nailed a couple of jumpers just off the top of the key and I'm not sure anyone on the Lakers can guard him one-on-one in the post.

[moonpie23]

well, as stated before, kobe really burned them badly this season...especially in the 4th qtr...

the rockets have to be tougher than then lakers....not just smarter..


i definitely think brooks is gonna have a great series against fish..

[hc5duke]

Yeah, I saw that too but am still unsure whether it was flagrant enough for a T or whether Kobe got the star treatment. I guess if a Celtic can smack an oppponent in the face hard enough to knock out a couple of teeth as he drives to the basket for a game-tying layup without getting a T, a Laker throwing a little elbow to the head coming out of a pileup also gets a free pass. It's only fair. Seriously, they had already called a loose ball foul on Kobe, and although the intent and the action was certainly there, I don't think he really connected with Shane. Best I would expect is maybe one of those "on further review" fines for the blow.

The part I loved the most about that sequence was how Battier immediately got up and just walked away without a word, as opposed to getting involved in a scuffle that could result in a technical being called (and typically against those who retaliate than those who initiate).

[SilkyJ]

I've said for a while and I'll say it again, JJ Redick will always have a place in the NBA and his defensive deficiencies are vastly overrated. He'll never be 1st Team All-NBA defense but I'm tired of people saying he can't play in the NBA. That's simply untrue.

I agree 5000%. He is also a very smart defender, which really helps him make up for being just slightly less quick and athletic than most SGs he plays against.

Heck, I think even SVG realized that JJ was doing better on ray allen than pietrus last night b/c after pierce & allen ran a few pick and rolls with each where JJ and pietrus switched (so JJ was on Pierce) Allen ended up getting away from pietrus and then SVG stopped having them switch.

[Mal]

Watching Battier play defense is amazing. He's simply on another level in terms of intelligence, hustle, and skill. Reading Michael Lewis' piece on him recently has made me watch him even more closely and it will be interesting to see if Battier can continue to pester Kobe and give the Lakers problems.

Agreed. It's been incredibly gratifying to see stats geeks get into the NBA and declare what we all knew all along: our guy just knows how to win basketball games, despite not piling up numbers in the usual categories.

And what a perfect coincidence that Houston gets Kobe and the Lakers in the second round and Battier holds Bryant to 8-26 or whatever it was in the first game. That Lewis article is going to get a lot more reads, and its conclusions about the immeasurable things Battier does are going to get a lot more credence, should this series continue the way it started. If Battier can continue to force Kobe into inefficient offensive production, and the Rockets somehow derail the cakewalk to the Finals all the pundits predicted for the Lakers, it will be a pretty big story. Every time the teams play in the future, Shane will share top billing with Kobe for the evening. That would be awesome. He'd be seen as Kobe's Kryptonite.

[blueprofessor]

The guys from Basketball Prospectus attempt to quantify the intangibles...

ttp://www.slate.com/id/2217721/


Best--Blueprofessor :)

[Turk]

The part I loved the most about that sequence was how Battier immediately got up and just walked away without a word, as opposed to getting involved in a scuffle that could result in a technical being called (and typically against those who retaliate than those who initiate).

Yep. Contrasted nicely with last night's Nugs-Mavs game. In the first half, a Mav guy (Hollins) puts the chop on Kenyon Martin who gets a putback and goes up for a free dunk. Hard foul but nothing dirty, and as they land, Hollins holds KMart up from behind so he stays on his feet and doesn't hit the floor. KMart gets all belligerent and Nene comes in pushing and shoving as the third man in. After the usual deliberations they hand out a double T to Hollins and Martin, Nene getting off scott free. Hollins got hosed for trying to do the right thing, but since he's a schmoe nobody cares. Oh yeah, and the Mavs are toast. Conventional wisdom says that George Karl is easy to outcoach, but all of a sudden he got a lot smarter when Chauncey came to the Nuggets. So did Melo, for that matter, but I'm afraid there's no hope for Martin...

I expect the LeBrons will toast Atlanta by 20 each game.

Lastly, Simmons chimes in on Rockets - Lakers in the second half of this column. Dang, he's good. I almost soiled myself once or twice reading it. I would love to watch hoops with him (I'd be the one in the Duke logowear...)

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090505&sportCat=nba

Money quote:

"9:37: Kobe tries to go baseline on Shane Battier, who forces him under the hoop and strips the ball from him as he heads out of bounds. Lakers ball. Is there a better one-on-one matchup in basketball right now than Kobe versus Battier? It was already good, then the great Michael Lewis blessed it, and now it's like watching a basketball chess match every game. I love this series just for Kobe-Battier. Kobe might get his points, but he's gonna have to work his butt off for them. This much we know."

Simmons might not like the Duke program or Duke fans, but I think we can safely put to rest any allegation that he hates all Duke players...

[darthur]

And what a perfect coincidence that Houston gets Kobe and the Lakers in the second round and Battier holds Bryant to 8-26 or whatever it was in the first game. That Lewis article is going to get a lot more reads, and its conclusions about the immeasurable things Battier does are going to get a lot more credence, should this series continue the way it started. If Battier can continue to force Kobe into inefficient offensive production, and the Rockets somehow derail the cakewalk to the Finals all the pundits predicted for the Lakers, it will be a pretty big story. Every time the teams play in the future, Shane will share top billing with Kobe for the evening. That would be awesome. He'd be seen as Kobe's Kryptonite.

I'm as big a Battier fan as the next man but it's worth pointing out that Kobe actually had an ok game despite Battier's efforts. 32 points on 45% shooting with 5 free throw attempts, 4 assists and 2 turnovers. Not a great game, but I think it's a little early to say Shane is Kobe's Kryptonite.

[sagegrouse]

I'm as big a Battier fan as the next man but it's worth pointing out that Kobe actually had an ok game despite Battier's efforts. 32 points on 45% shooting with 5 free throw attempts, 4 assists and 2 turnovers. Not a great game, but I think it's a little early to say Shane is Kobe's Kryptonite.

darthur: It's earlier in this thread, but I believe that Kobe's shooting while Battier was in the game was much poorer than when he was not.

sagegrouse

[hc5duke]

I think it's a little early to say Shane is Kobe's Kryptonite.

Besides, we all know that's Ruben Patterson, the self-proclaimed Kobe Stopper

[BobbyFan]

Battier made 2nd team All-NBA defense. LeBron got 1st team over him, so take it for what it's worth - while LeBron has certainly improved into a very good defender, it's an insult to Battier to suggest he was better. But then again, Kobe and Paul made 1st team as well so much stock shouldn't be put into these awards.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4146910

[zingit]

Did anyone else see when Chris Sager was talking about Battier's defense on Kobe? He held up Battier's scouting report and said that he divides the floor up into squares and see where Kobe is more or less effective, and what moves Kobe is better or worse with. It's the same sort of thing as the Lewis article, but still, it's a amazing how much extra work Battier puts into scouting the opponent. Not to mention how smart it is. Obvious he's a Duke grad. ;)

Houston leading by 1. Let's go, Rockets!

[JBDuke]

I'm as big a Battier fan as the next man but it's worth pointing out that Kobe actually had an ok game despite Battier's efforts. 32 points on 45% shooting with 5 free throw attempts, 4 assists and 2 turnovers. Not a great game, but I think it's a little early to say Shane is Kobe's Kryptonite.


darthur: It's earlier in this thread, but I believe that Kobe's shooting while Battier was in the game was much poorer than when he was not.

sagegrouse

The post you're looking for is this one: http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=291014&postcount=115

Wherein, the poster notes that the link indicates that Kobe was 8-22 when Shane was defending him, which translates to 36% shooting, which is pretty poor for Kobe.

[FireOgilvie]

Kobe is unstoppable when his shot is falling. Bad news for Battier. Kobe just said, "You can't guard me!"

[A-Tex Devil]

So Shane is doing NOTHING wrong. But Kobe is just THAT good. It's not like he's blowing by Shane or otherwise losing him. Shane has a hand in his face every time. He just keeps making shots. Ugh. Damn he's good.

Even if Rockets lose this game. The fact they survived that first quarter gives me hope they can win this series.

[BlueintheFace]

So Shane is doing NOTHING wrong. But Kobe is just THAT good. It's not like he's blowing by Shane or otherwise losing him. Shane has a hand in his face every time. He just keeps making shots. Ugh. Damn he's good.

Even if Rockets lose this game. The fact they survived that first quarter gives me hope they can win this series.

Yep. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Kobe may not be the best player ever, but he is the most complete and dominant offensive player ever.Just have to tip your hat.

[Billy Dat]

-Anyone see the Magic/Celtics game? I didn't, but see that JJ got 15 in 25 minutes but also was ejected. I don't care if it was a blowout...JJ getting double figures in two playoff starts seemed unimaginable only a few weeks ago. If anyone saw the game and can comment, that would be great.

-This Laker/Rockets game is getting a little chippy! Agree that Kobe is doin work, but Shane will get credit for bringing out the best in him. The Rockets won't go away...let's see if they've got a 4th Q run in them. Yao being saddled with fouls has hurt them.

-Also, I don't think it is a stretch at all to compare Lebron with Shane on defense. What Lebron may lack up in savvy and knowledge (merely based on age and experience because I think he's as smart as anyone in the League, including Shane) he makes up for with his physical prowess and incredible athleticism and effort. I think his D picked up BIG TIME as a result of his tenure with Team USA, especially last season to this season.

[BlueintheFace]

Kobe threw an elbow! Not even close!

[hc5duke]

the claws come out - these Lakers are playing dirty, and I hope the Rockets don't play down to this level. Also doesn't help that Joey Crawford is calling the game

[FireOgilvie]

Kobe threw an elbow! Not even close!

Maybe, but don't get in Artest's way when he has that crazy look in his eyes.

Kobe with the technical for taunting Battier.

This is going to be a good series.

[BlueintheFace]

This stinks for me. The Rockets are my team, but my second favorite team is the Lakers. If the Lakers beat the Rockets, I wanted to be able to root for them to win it all, but with the way they are playing I'm not so sure I can do that. All these dirty fouls and plays while all the Rockets have been doing is working hard. Odom, Kobe, and vujacic all talk their mouths off while none of the Rockets talk trash at all besides reserve Von Wafer.

Shame.

[A-Tex Devil]

Someone explain how Artest gets ejected there? Shouldn't he get the first T or did they T him up twice really quickly? Dude has to let that go, and I know he is incapable, but it seemed like he got ejected awfully quick.

Kobe won't get suspended for that elbow, nor do I think he should (it was a foul, and maybe deserves a fine. Still, the fact Artest got the foul there is garbage and I will pay up to 2 grand to fly anywhere in the country to fight anyone who disagrees with me :cool:).

Honestly, I think the Lakers are better without Fisher against the Rockets, so I'm a little concerned about the fact there won't be minutes for him next game with Brooks and Lowry blowing by him.

[moonpie23]

the lakers ALWAYS play dirty when it's close at the end of the game..


kobe should be suspended for that elbow.....so should fish...

[BlueintheFace]

the lakers ALWAYS play dirty when it's close at the end of the game..


kobe should be suspended for that elbow.....so should fish...

If Fish isn't suspended then Stu Jackson is a hypocrite... simple as that.

[dukeballer2294]

If Fish isn't suspended then Stu Jackson is a hypocrite... simple as that.

Fisher sent a message... dont mess with us on our home court. And kobe will no way get rejected maybe recieve a flagrent 1 but there is not way u could make a definite arguent that it was intetional there is a good cance it was but they wont suspend him. On the other hand Artest migth be looking at 1, he rans straight at Kobe after crying to the ref. Id rather have him play so kobe can light him up. In the end my lakers got the job done.

[Devil07]

Fisher should definitely be suspended. That was about as intentional as they come. Kobe might get a fine but no way he gets suspended for that. Still, I had forgotten how obnoxious and smug he can be. Artest's ejection was a bit quick but it was already a tense situation and I think his reputation precedes him. Just an ugly game all around. The Lakers really were playing incredibly dirty basketball, but the Rockets seemed to let it get to them, so I guess it worked in that sense. The rest of this series should be really interesting. Unless the Lakers supporting guys step up I like the Rockets chances. Kobe won't be that efficient all series and Yao is bound to play better. After watching tonight's game there really is nothing I'd like more than to see the Lakers get knocked out, but either way, it should be entertaining.

[hc5duke]

Fisher sent a message... dont mess with us on our home court.

a dirty play is still a dirty play, no need to make excuses. pitchers get suspended for throwing at batters, too. artest definitely did not deserve to get thrown out so fast

[BlueintheFace]

Fisher sent a message... dont mess with us on our home court.

This statement (1) has no relevance to the discussion regarding whether or not the incident warranted a suspension. Care to disagree? (2) Derek Fisher can punch Scola in the groin and that sends a message too. That doesn't change the fact that it was a dirty play. You can send a message without endangering another player, right? do you disagree?


And kobe will no way get rejected maybe recieve a flagrent 1 but there is not way u could make a definite arguent that it was intetional there is a good cance it was but they wont suspend him. On the other hand Artest migth be looking at 1, he rans straight at Kobe after crying to the ref. Id rather have him play so kobe can light him up. In the end my lakers got the job done.

No, kobe does not deserve to be suspended. You are correct. It was just a missed call. Probably a missed flagrant 1 as per the rules (no hands to the face in the course of play). I think Chuck and Kenny said it best. Artest didn't retaliate. He immediately turned to the people he is supposed to, the refs. When it became clear that they weren't going to do anything about it, he rightfully confronted Kobe to let him know that what he did was not going to be happening again. He deserved a technical foul, but his reputation incorrectly got him tossed from the game.

[ClosetHurleyFan]

Yep. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Kobe may not be the best player ever, but he is the most complete and dominant offensive player ever.Just have to tip your hat.

Did you watch Michael Jordan play from age 30 to 35? Think he still gets the nod.......keep in mind there was a season or two where Jordan averaged in the mid to high 30s per game......and was a tremendous defender as well. To this day, I dont think we have seen a more unstoppable player going to the basket, some of Jordan's dunks over people, wow, I still havent seen anyone dunk on people's heads like Jordan did with such a reckless abandon and by the time he was in this age bracket, his fade away 20 footer was nearly unstoppable......

[A-Tex Devil]

To this day, I dont think we have seen a more unstoppable player going to the basket, some of Jordan's dunks over people, wow, I still havent seen anyone dunk on people's heads like Jordan did with such a reckless abandon and by the time he was in this age bracket, his fade away 20 footer was nearly unstoppable......

Watch LeBron. Not yet the complete player that Jordan was, but he's equal to him here at least.

[superdave]

Watch LeBron. Not yet the complete player that Jordan was, but he's equal to him here at least.

LeBron is Magic and Scottie and Dr. J and a little bit of Jordan all rolled into one. He also averages about 5 assists and 3-4 rebounds per game more than Jordan.

If LeBron can win a few titles with Mo Williams as his sidekick, then, well, Mr. Jordan has been put on notice.

Super "LeBron actually has a personality too" Dave

[Indoor66]

Yep. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Kobe may not be the best player ever, but he is the most complete and dominant offensive player ever.Just have to tip your hat.

I'll agree when he averages 50 per game for a season, a la Wilt!

[BobbyFan]

Also, I don't think it is a stretch at all to compare Lebron with Shane on defense. What Lebron may lack up in savvy and knowledge (merely based on age and experience because I think he's as smart as anyone in the League, including Shane) he makes up for with his physical prowess and incredible athleticism and effort. I think his D picked up BIG TIME as a result of his tenure with Team USA, especially last season to this season.

I don't think Battier blows LeBron away in defense, but he is definitely better. I think LeBron made 1st team because of his overall recognition. In particular, Battier only gets credited as a top notch man defender, when his help defense is outstanding as well (which we all as Duke fans knew about).

Also, while I agree that LeBron has improved, he was playing excellent defense last year as well. It's just that people didn't notice. In a matter of a year, his defense has gone from underrated to overrated.

[BlueintheFace]

Did you watch Michael Jordan play from age 30 to 35? Think he still gets the nod.......keep in mind there was a season or two where Jordan averaged in the mid to high 30s per game......and was a tremendous defender as well. To this day, I dont think we have seen a more unstoppable player going to the basket, some of Jordan's dunks over people, wow, I still havent seen anyone dunk on people's heads like Jordan did with such a reckless abandon and by the time he was in this age bracket, his fade away 20 footer was nearly unstoppable......

Nope, No, and Absolutely Not. Michael was the best player of all time, but Kobe is the best offensive player of all time. There isn't even a sliver of doubt in my mind. Michael is better because of his defense, his heart, and the way he played EVERY game so hard while Kobe coasts at time, but Kobe is the greatest offensive machine to ever play the game.

BUT, Kobe has the complete package that Michael did not have.

He drives
He dunks (although now that he isn't quite as explosive... same thing that happened to Michael)
He throws alley-oops to himself off the backboard
He can catch and shoot the mid range (Michael never could)
He is the greatest mid range pull-up shooter of all time
He can hit the fadeaway from the baseline and literally everywhere elso on the court (Micahel never could hit the fadeaway consistently from the two elbows and struggled with the right baseline)
He can knock down the three (Michael was a TERRIBLE three point shooter in comparison)
He posts up and has the complete array of low block footwork (Michael rarely did this)
He hits the clutch shots just like Michael did

... it's just not close for me. You may disagree with one or two of my characterizations, but I have to take Kobe because there were things on offense Michael Jordan could not do. There is nothing on offense Kobe cannot do. He has literally every shot in the bag.

[BlueintheFace]

I'll agree when he averages 50 per game for a season, a la Wilt!

I should have said greatest, or skilled, or complete offensive player. Wilt was the most dominant, but I would argue that his skill level wasn't even close to Kobe. When you are so tall, you don't need to have a huge skill set.

[Indoor66]

I should have said greatest, or skilled, or complete offensive player. Wilt was the most dominant, but I would argue that his skill level wasn't even close to Kobe. When you are so tall, you don't need to have a huge skill set.

I would question your evaluation of Wilt's skill set. Did you see him play throughout his career from college 'til the end? He had a remarkable handle, tremendous passing skills, could leap out of the gym, had a fadaway jumper, hook, finger roll, dunk, etc. He also defended, guarded and dominated his opposition. Your last sentence is, imo, hardly accurate. Many tall players never were dominant players.

[ice-9]

Nope, No, and Absolutely Not. Michael was the best player of all time, but Kobe is the best offensive player of all time. There isn't even a sliver of doubt in my mind. Michael is better because of his defense, his heart, and the way he played EVERY game so hard while Kobe coasts at time, but Kobe is the greatest offensive machine to ever play the game.

BUT, Kobe has the complete package that Michael did not have.

He drives
He dunks (although now that he isn't quite as explosive... same thing that happened to Michael)
He throws alley-oops to himself off the backboard
He can catch and shoot the mid range (Michael never could)
He is the greatest mid range pull-up shooter of all time
He can hit the fadeaway from the baseline and literally everywhere elso on the court (Micahel never could hit the fadeaway consistently from the two elbows and struggled with the right baseline)
He can knock down the three (Michael was a TERRIBLE three point shooter in comparison)
He posts up and has the complete array of low block footwork (Michael rarely did this)
He hits the clutch shots just like Michael did

... it's just not close for me. You may disagree with one or two of my characterizations, but I have to take Kobe because there were things on offense Michael Jordan could not do. There is nothing on offense Kobe cannot do. He has literally every shot in the bag.


I agree Kobe is awesome, but I don't remember him being more clutch than Jordan.

[BobbyFan]

Nope, No, and Absolutely Not. Michael was the best player of all time, but Kobe is the best offensive player of all time. There isn't even a sliver of doubt in my mind. Michael is better because of his defense, his heart, and the way he played EVERY game so hard while Kobe coasts at time, but Kobe is the greatest offensive machine to ever play the game.

You can make an argument that Kobe has the most complete offensive skill set. But he is absolutely not the greatest offensive player of all time, let alone a better offensive player than Jordan.


BUT, Kobe has the complete package that Michael did not have.

He drives
He dunks (although now that he isn't quite as explosive... same thing that happened to Michael)
He throws alley-oops to himself off the backboard
He can catch and shoot the mid range (Michael never could)
He is the greatest mid range pull-up shooter of all time
He can hit the fadeaway from the baseline and literally everywhere elso on the court (Micahel never could hit the fadeaway consistently from the two elbows and struggled with the right baseline)
He can knock down the three (Michael was a TERRIBLE three point shooter in comparison)
He posts up and has the complete array of low block footwork (Michael rarely did this)
He hits the clutch shots just like Michael did

Is this serious? Well, I guess you answered ClosetHurleyFan's question as to whether or not you saw Jordan play.

[dukejunkie]

It seemed that Battier's strategy of putting his hand in Kobe's face during jump shots was not that effective last night. It was pretty impressive to see Bryant stroking shots with a hand inches from his eyes. I'm a big Battier fan but think this method is a little cheap and brings up school yard memories. Of course it should work. No one likes a hand in their face while they are shooting. However, I think the NBA should take a look at this. As more and more players copy Battier, the league will be toeing a dangerous line. Eyes will be poked, noses broken, etc.

It's great to see good defense but I'm not sure if this is really part of the game.

[BlueintheFace]

Is this serious? Well, I guess you answered ClosetHurleyFan's question as to whether or not you saw Jordan play.

^ hardly brilliant commentary. Do you care to elaborate past the message board equivalent of "nu-uh, that is stupid" ?? What points do you disagree on?

[BlueintheFace]

I agree Kobe is awesome, but I don't remember him being more clutch than Jordan.

Nobody said he was.

[moonpie23]

Eyes will be poked, noses broken, etc.

It's great to see good defense but I'm not sure if this is really part of the game.

so, what? now you can't obscure the player's vision?

i think battier's defense is brilliant and well executed.....it DID work a few times last night.....just not as much as mon.

[dukejunkie]

so, what? now you can't obscure the player's vision?

i think battier's defense is brilliant and well executed.....it DID work a few times last night.....just not as much as mon.

No question, Battier has it down to an art. It is very distracting. I'm just wondering what happens when others start using this strategy? There are not many Battiers in this league.

Did you ever get hit in the face when shooting a jump shot? All I'm saying is that mass adoption of this could lead to a combustible situation.

[slower]

Yep. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Kobe may not be the best player ever, but he is the most complete and dominant offensive player ever.Just have to tip your hat.

Most complete? Maybe

Most dominant? See Chamberlain, Wilt.

[TheBrianZoubekExperience]

I tend to think that Kobe often is the most impressive because he has the most shots/moves/etc so he often gets the nod as the best offensive player. Kobe makes so many tough shots look easy and he does seem to be the most versatile. But I guess all I would really care about is how effective a palyer is on the offensive end. I haven't looked at the stats recently but don't Lebron/Wade/Jordan all have more effective seasons statistically?

[blueprofessor]

I would question your evaluation of Wilt's skill set. Did you see him play throughout his career from college 'til the end? He had a remarkable handle, tremendous passing skills, could leap out of the gym, had a fadaway jumper, hook, finger roll, dunk, etc. He also defended, guarded and dominated his opposition. Your last sentence is, imo, hardly accurate. Many tall players never were dominant players.

Champion high jumper (6'63/4"), shot put champion(56'), great volleyball player(HOF), ran 100 yard dash in 10.9, greatest( or top 3) vertical leaper in NBA history,led league in assists as a center, averaged 50/30 one year,had 4 major rules changes because of his athleticism (including offensive goaltending),would have been a great decathlete (ran 440 in 49 secs, and 880 in impressive time, triple jumped over 50',broad jumped 22 feet, threw the discus and javelin),was most accurate shooter in NBA history (led league 9 times,once at 72%), greatest rebounder in NBA history(led 11 years), and led NBA in scoring 7 times.
Blocked shots were not officially recorded until 1974---Matt Goukas and others (including mentions in game analyses for newspapers) gauged his average block shots total at minimum of 8 per game.
Lost championship or conference title in seventh game to Celtics in '62,'65,'68,'69 by a total of 9 points.Won 2 championships.

It is no wonder Wilt was selected in Elliot Kalb's book (foreword by Costas)Who's Better, Who's Best in Basketball ? as the 2nd greatest player all-time.

Wilt was also a very nice person. On a number of plays he could have severely injured the smaller (6'9", 230 pounds) Russell's wrist on the rim and chose not to dunk the ball.
Best--B:)lueprofessor

[Kfanarmy]

I too think Kobe is a most offensive player...for his consistent use of Elbows into faces and necks. Were he not one of the NBA poster children, he would be getting routinely T'd up and ejected from games for his elbowing tactics. He clearly intended to elbow Shane Battier in the back of the head during game 1, and now Artest in game 2. NBA excused game one elbow claiming he was attempting to get up...what will excuse will be made to keep him on the court for game 3?

I don't argue with his skill or athleticism, but I do have big problems with his behavior when opposing players don't just role over for his team.

[BlueintheFace]

Most complete? Maybe

Most dominant? See Chamberlain, Wilt.

please make sure to read the previous few comments on the thread before posting so as to cut down on repetition (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=291668&postcount=168).

[BobbyFan]

I tend to think that Kobe often is the most impressive because he has the most shots/moves/etc so he often gets the nod as the best offensive player. Kobe makes so many tough shots look easy and he does seem to be the most versatile. But I guess all I would really care about is how effective a palyer is on the offensive end.

Pretty much spot on. Kobe's game is very fluid and therefore aesthetically pleasing to the eye. But this and versatility don't equate to being better. Heck, Shaq is one of the least versatile scorers in NBA history.


I haven't looked at the stats recently but don't Lebron/Wade/Jordan all have more effective seasons statistically?

Correct. Also, because of their playmaking abilities, I would take Magic and Bird's offensive game over Kobe's. And no GM in their right mind would take Kobe over a dominant scoring big man like Wilt, Shaq, or Kareem.

[ice-9]

Nobody said he was.

K....I don't remember Kobe being as clutch as Jordan.

[BlueintheFace]

K....I don't remember Kobe being as clutch as Jordan.

I'm not sure that I definitely agree here. Kobe has hit his fair share of game winners throughout the regular season and playoffs. Far more importantly...when the game is close in the 4th quarter, the ball is usually in Kobe's hands and that pretty regularly works out. I think Jordan has hit more clutch shots in championship series, but there are definitely issues of opportunity there.

My instinct is to say that Jordan edges out Kobe in the clutch department, but those two guys are on a whole different plane from everyone else. How many other players in the history of NBA basketball have you EXPECTED to (1) always take the big shots in the last minute or two and (2) always make big shots in the last minute or two?

Hence my statement, "He Hits the clutch shots like Michael."

[BobbyFan]

I'm not sure that I definitely agree here. Kobe has hit his fair share of game winners throughout the regular season and playoffs. Far more importantly...when the game is close in the 4th quarter, the ball is usually in Kobe's hands and that pretty regularly works out. I think Jordan has hit more clutch shots in championship series, but there are definitely issues of opportunity there.

My instinct is to say that Jordan edges out Kobe in the clutch department, but those two guys are on a whole different plane from everyone else. How many other players in the history of NBA basketball have you EXPECTED to (1) always take the big shots in the last minute or two and (2) always make big shots in the last minute or two?

Hence my statement, "He Hits the clutch shots like Michael."

This is completely wrong. I'm not sure what your definition of clutch is, but mine is that of a player who rises above his normal level of play in a crucial moment. Kobe hasn't really done that - he basically maintains his level of play, which is in fact what most players do. And it's quite the revisionist history to claim that he always makes the big shots, because that is simply not true.

Regardless, much more important is the level of play during the playoffs. And that's a department where Jordan absolutely dwarfs Kobe. In recent times, only Olajuwon and Shaq have had stretches that compare to Jordan. Kobe, on the other hand, has generally played at or slightly below his regular season level and in particular played very poorly in his last 2 trips to the Finals.

[hc5duke]

I'm not sure that I definitely agree here. Kobe has hit his fair share of game winners throughout the regular season and playoffs. Far more importantly...when the game is close in the 4th quarter, the ball is usually in Kobe's hands and that pretty regularly works out. I think Jordan has hit more clutch shots in championship series, but there are definitely issues of opportunity there.

My instinct is to say that Jordan edges out Kobe in the clutch department, but those two guys are on a whole different plane from everyone else. How many other players in the history of NBA basketball have you EXPECTED to (1) always take the big shots in the last minute or two and (2) always make big shots in the last minute or two?

Hence my statement, "He Hits the clutch shots like Michael."

From the NYT Battier article (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html?pagewanted=print):


Since the 2002-3 season, Bryant had taken 51 3-pointers at the very end of close games from farther than 26.75 feet from the basket. He had missed 86.3 percent of them.

I wouldn't be surprised if that is still better than most other players, but 13.7% != "always make big shots"

[BlueintheFace]

Bobby Fan, please see Hc5duke's post on how to refute an argument convincingly. Thanks for the numbers Hc5. I suppose I just don't know very many players who have hit multiple game-winning shots in the playoffs besides Jordan and Kobe. My mind must be permanently affected by that Suns-Lakers series where Kobe hit something like 4 shots to send games in to overtime or to win outright. Interesting stuff. Although, like Bill Simmons, I wish stats were more sophisticated to account for three pointers and jumpers take late in the shot clock or while double teamed.


This is completely wrong.

No you are completely wrong...wait, jk. That is a terrible opening line for a discussion.


I'm not sure what your definition of clutch is, but mine is that of a player who rises above his normal level of play in a crucial moment. Kobe hasn't really done that - he basically maintains his level of play, which is in fact what most players do.

hahah. Kobe just maintains a normal level of play in crucial moments? I guess we just disagree here.


And it's quite the revisionist history to claim that he always makes the big shots, because that is simply not true.

Thank God, I didn't say it then. I hope that straw man you built is up for the beating.


Regardless, much more important is the level of play during the playoffs. And that's a department where Jordan absolutely dwarfs Kobe. In recent times, only Olajuwon and Shaq have had stretches that compare to Jordan. Kobe, on the other hand, has generally played at or slightly below his regular season level and in particular played very poorly in his last 2 trips to the Finals.

Since you are now transitioning to "level of play during the playoffs" instead of clutch shooting, I guess we should deal in the world of objective numbers rather than the incalculable "Clutch" factor (which by the way- was one among many many areas that I compared Kobe to Michael.... and all i said was that Kobe is clutch and Michael was clutch.... no comparison made).

Kobe Bryant Playoff Statistics:
30 ppg
5.60 rpg
5.0 apg

... and more years than not his scoring average went up in the playoffs.

I'd also like to direct you back to my original point, which is that Kobe is the most complete offensive machine ever. Wilt was the most dominant offensive player ever. Jordan was the best player ever. Kobe is the most complete offensive player ever.. he can do EVERYTHING.

If it would make you feel better, I can just say that Kobe was not as clutch as Michael. Frankly, that is my instinct (as I have said). The "clutch factor" seems to speak more to the greatness of the player on the whole than to his offensive game anyways, though I think there is some small crossover... which is why I listed it.

NOTE, I never said Kobe was more clutch than Jordan, I never said he was as clutch as Jordan. I simply said he was clutch like Jordan. I put him on that top tier or two of stars who have been really clutch. If you disagree with that then I am afraid we just have different definitions of clutch or something.

[pfrduke]

From the NYT Battier article (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html?pagewanted=print):



I wouldn't be surprised if that is still better than most other players, but 13.7% != "always make big shots"

I don't really have a horse in this race, but not every "big shot" is a 3-pointer from more than 26.75 ft. To say that 13.7% on desperation threes means he's not clutch is a little misleading.

[hc5duke]

I don't really have a horse in this race, but not every "big shot" is a 3-pointer from more than 26.75 ft. To say that 13.7% on desperation threes means he's not clutch is a little misleading.

ooh good catch. I actually didn't bother to read what I was quoting because I just remembered the number from the article. Now I want a copy of Shane's handbook to find a more relevant stat

[pfrduke]

FWIW, 82games.com (a holy grail of statistical analysis) tracks clutch performance, which it broadly defines as stats within the last 5 minutes of a game when neither team's lead exceeds 5 points. Kobe led the league in points per 48 minutes of "clutch time," at 56.7. However, if you look at LeBron, the King shot much better (.556 overall, .429 from three vs. .457/.400) got to the line more (20.8 FTA/48 vs. 18.2), and got his team better involved (12.6 assists/48 vs. 5.7), although LeBron admittedly played 31 fewer clutch minutes.

See all that and more here (http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM).

[superdave]

Now those are some clutch players. I bet they've hit more clutch shots than MJ and KB. One of those two players was on every NBA title team from 1994 through, what, 2003?

I think one thing that distinguishes MJ and KB is how bad they are as teammates. MJ once showed up Bill Cartwright in the huddle by saying "Dont pass Cartwright the ball the rest of the game." Cartwright supposedly told him if he ever did that again, MJ would be eating dinner through a straw. KB didnt eve dress in the Lakers locker room his first several seasons, but used a side office because he couldnt relate to the camaraderie in the locker room.

This is why LeBron is special. He makes his teammates better and they love him. I think the same can be said for a guy like Magic.

Super "Could the Cavs sweep the entire playoffs?" Dave

[BobbyFan]

hahah. Kobe just maintains a normal level of play in crucial moments? I guess we just disagree here.

I clearly stated his normal level of play.


Thank God, I didn't say it then. I hope that straw man you built is up for the beating.

...except that it's not a straw man because you did say it. Either way, I know you didn't mean it literally that Kobe makes every single clutch shot. My point is that your opinion that Kobe consistently succeeds in those situations is not true and, as you suggest yourself, based on selective memory.



Kobe Bryant Playoff Statistics:
30 ppg
5.60 rpg
5.0 apg

... and more years than not his scoring average went up in the playoffs.

Most starters play more minutes in the playoffs, so it is expected that their scoring goes up. For Kobe's career in the regular season, he averages 25.1 ppg. In the playoffs, despite playing more minutes, he averages 24.5 ppg. Jordan in the regular season is at 30.1 ppg and in the playoffs is at 33.4 ppg.

And Kobe's PER rating in the playoffs drops by over 2 points which is significant. Jordan's goes up by 1.


I'd also like to direct you back to my original point, which is that Kobe is the most complete offensive machine ever. Wilt was the most dominant offensive player ever. Jordan was the best player ever. Kobe is the most complete offensive player ever.. he can do EVERYTHING.

Kobe may have claim to being the most complete offensive SG, just like Garnett has the claim to being the most complete overall PF. But just as it doesn't imply that Garnett is the greatest PF of all time, it that doesn't follow that Kobe is the the best offensive player ever, which you have stated.

[slower]

please make sure to read the previous few comments on the thread before posting so as to cut down on repetition (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=291668&postcount=168).

Not my job to review every post in a thread before posting. If I start reading a new (to me) thread and think that post #100 deserves a reply, I may not feel like weeding through another 100 posts just to avoid "repetition".

[blueprofessor]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/steve_aschburner/05/08/kobe/index.html?eref=si_writers

Best--Blueprofessor:)

[JBDuke]

Not my job to review every post in a thread before posting. If I start reading a new (to me) thread and think that post #100 deserves a reply, I may not feel like weeding through another 100 posts just to avoid "repetition".

Maybe you should think through your statements more thoroughly if you don't like getting multiple dissenting replies.

Actually, it is your "job" to read through a thread to ensure you don't post a dupe. Duplicate posts, especially those arising from lazy readers, are ripe for the "needless post" infraction. I probably should have done more often in this thread.

And let's please confine further discussion on this to the PM arena. This thread is supposed to be about the NBA Playoffs - not the Posting Guidelines.

[blueprofessor]

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-plaschke-lakers9-2009may09,0,4027720.column

Or at least the Houston fans know it's over!

Best--Blue Prof:)

[A-Tex Devil]

Dallas fans are going to whine, and, yes, a foul should have been called, but my dear friend Aggie Antoine Wright needs to play to the whistle. HI-larious.

[BlueintheFace]

Out for the season.

Yao- Broken Foot
Blueintheface- Broken Heart

[DukieBoy]

Out for the season.

Yao- Broken Foot
Blueintheface- Broken Heart

Out for season

Rockets - No players left

They had a shot without T-Mac because Ron stepped up. Without Yao, it's over. Lakers dodge bullet number one, which I'm very happy about being a Lakers fan. Bring on Denver.

[BlueintheFace]

This just isn't fair. No T-Mac, No Dikembe, No Yao. This was a team that had a real chance... sad stuff

[moonpie23]

they could have given carmello the continuation...... ;)

[hc5duke]

This just isn't fair. No T-Mac, No Dikembe, No Yao. This was a team that had a real chance... sad stuff

I've been saying this for years - the Rockets are a better team without TMac (and Skip 2 My Lou).

[BlueintheFace]

I've been saying this for years - the Rockets are a better team without TMac (and Skip 2 My Lou).

I disagree. I think it just that T-mac and Yao cannot co-exist (which doesn't seem to be much of a problem these days considering how injury prone they both are). Yao clogs the lane which forces T-Mac to take almost all jumpers. Both are great players that just need to be on different teams. As a Rockets fan, I would simply see which player we can get the most value for and send that one away. Just one fan's opinion... I know plenty who think Yao, T-Mac, and Artest together would be unstoppable. I'm not so sure...

[Truth]

This just isn't fair. No T-Mac, No Dikembe, No Yao. This was a team that had a real chance... sad stuff

I concur. I was really looking forward to Battier and the Rockets pushing the Lakers out to a 6 or 7 game series. I do think the Lakers would've ultimately won, but if it went to a Game 7, you never know --- and it would have been great fun to watch!

[hc5duke]

I disagree. I think it just that T-mac and Yao cannot co-exist (which doesn't seem to be much of a problem these days considering how injury prone they both are). Yao clogs the lane which forces T-Mac to take almost all jumpers. Both are great players that just need to be on different teams. As a Rockets fan, I would simply see which player we can get the most value for and send that one away. Just one fan's opinion... I know plenty who think Yao, T-Mac, and Artest together would be unstoppable. I'm not so sure...

I've never been so frustrated by an underachieving athlete as TMac. He is the anti Battier on the Rockets, and there have been reports of bad chemistry within the team because of him.

[Truth]

I've never been so frustrated by an underachieving athlete as TMac. He is the anti Battier on the Rockets, and there have been reports of bad chemistry within the team because of him.

On the bright side, T-Mac seems to be trying to make a positive difference in the world off the basketball court: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bk/bkn/5175640.html

[Truth]

Welcome to the Shane Battier show!

[A-Tex Devil]

I disagree. I think it just that T-mac and Yao cannot co-exist (which doesn't seem to be much of a problem these days considering how injury prone they both are). Yao clogs the lane which forces T-Mac to take almost all jumpers. Both are great players that just need to be on different teams. As a Rockets fan, I would simply see which player we can get the most value for and send that one away. Just one fan's opinion... I know plenty who think Yao, T-Mac, and Artest together would be unstoppable. I'm not so sure...

Tracy is the ultimate great player on a good/bad team guy. I was thrilled when Tracy came to Houston, but if the team needs to evaluate which superstar to put its money on? I'll pick the guy that didn't opt for microfracture surgery to tank a trade without even telling his coach. Tracy just doesn't have "IT." He doesn't bring much else to the table to be a good role player. You are going to live and die with his 25-30 shot nights. He's either going to hit 15 or he's gonna hit 9.

Like Iverson, he plays hard and is a warrior on the court. But that skill set just doesn't lend itself to a championship team anymore - if it ever did.

Let's keep this up Rockets!

[Greg_Newton]

I was hoping Shane would be beating the Lakers after the first quarter, but they came from behind in the last couple minutes to finish with a 16-12 lead.

Is it just me, or does Artest seem like a very inefficient offensive player? It seems like half the time he tries to go one-on-one from the perimeter he either gets it taken away from him or badly bricks a long jumper. The guy is strong as an ox, but it gets on my nerves a little bit watching him repeatedly decline passing to an open (and extremely efficient) Battier so he can bumble his way into the lane and dribble it off his knee or fire up a rainbow 22 footer that grazes the side of the rim. Okay, rant over.

[ice-9]

7 min left in the third quarter...

Kobe: 15 points
Battier: 18 points

Go Battier!!!

[Maxwell1977]

0.7 sec left and the Rockets complete an alley-oop to a <6 foot PG.

[ice-9]

Wow, what a win by the Rockets!

Hard to believe that Battier outplayed Kobe on BOTH ends on the floor.

Aaron Brooks may not be an all-star guard, but he's definitely a stud -- the shortest player was the best player in the game. Just goes to show once again that height isn't all that in the NBA.

[FireOgilvie]

Kobe was miserable today. He played like he didn't care (when he wasn't sitting on the bench for the first half of the 4th quarter). He's usually the most intense player on the court.

[A-Tex Devil]

Kobe was miserable today. He played like he didn't care (when he wasn't sitting on the bench for the first half of the 4th quarter). He's usually the most intense player on the court.

And that's why he'll always be one step behind Jordan. He's starting to accumulate these types of games that you never saw from Jordan in the playoffs after 1990. There were a few last year as well.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Classy move by Big Baby to shove some kid after he hits the winner. Hope he gets called out for that.

[hc5duke]

Classy move by Big Baby to shove some kid after he hits the winner. Hope he gets called out for that.

Aw come on, it didn't look intentional. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt despite where he went to school in 2006.

[johaad]

Aw come on, it didn't look intentional. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt despite where he went to school in 2006.

I'm not. Great avatar by the way hc5.

[DukeFencer]

Why was Kobe on the bench for so long in the 4th?

[sagegrouse]

Classy move by Big Baby to shove some kid after he hits the winner. Hope he gets called out for that.

Big Baby was genuinely jumping with joy. The kid in question was only a few inches from the court.

To the Grouse, this is another example of the proven economic maxim: "You get what you pay for." You pay a thousand bucks to sit on the court; you also get the risk of being obliterated by seven footers who weigh 300+ pounds.

Sage Grouse
'Speaking of 300+ pounds, did anyone else read the Wash Post article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/08/AR2009050802879.html)over the weekend on Ralph Friedgen, UMd football coach? He was up to 401 pounds in October and is now down to 315. Holy cow! This is a diabetes train wreck for a 62YO.'

[blueprofessor]

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/game-lakers-team-2402949-day-jackson

Best--Blue Prof:)

[Duke4Ever32]

I'm not. Great avatar by the way hc5.

Yeah, I'm sure Big Baby was thinking "Man, if I could just hit a game-winning shot, that would give me a REALLY GREAT(!) excuse to shove a kid standing nearby. I should try it!!" :rolleyes:

And, why are kids standing close enough to the court in the NBA playoffs for this to happen anyway?? Seems like you're assuming the risk at that point.

[hc5duke]

anyone else catch the post game interview with Shane? "savoir-faire" - this guy sends me to the dictionary more than anyone else on TV :cool:

[hc5duke]

anyone else catch the post game interview with Shane? "savoir-faire" - this guy sends me to the dictionary more than anyone else on TV :cool:
and it was regarding this outfit
http://a323.yahoofs.com/ymg/ept_sports_nba_experts__24/ept_sports_nba_experts-31553165-1242044591.jpg?ymvyaPBDILIXHXgs

[Turk]

LOL!! Chris Rock's little brother!! That coat is so loud not even Craig Sager would wear it.

[SilkyJ]

anyone else catch the post game interview with Shane? "savoir-faire" - this guy sends me to the dictionary more than anyone else on TV :cool:

To quote shane, "That's a Duke thing."

:D

Also loved how at halftime the courtside reporter said "you sweat on me more than anyone." Nobody works harder than Shane!

I am just loving this playoffs...

[hc5duke]

Also loved how at halftime the courtside reporter said "you sweat on me more than anyone." Nobody works harder than Shane!

http://twitter.com/saltersl/status/1757059662
http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=19&pictureid=398

[Matches]

Why was Kobe on the bench for so long in the 4th?

Because the game was over. No point in having him risk injury by playing. Save it for Game 5.

[BlueintheFace]

Holy Cow!!! Dahntay Jones just threw the ball down with ferocity off of a great steal. WOW!

[balkan boy]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=ArtestBattier-090512

Balkan Boy

[A-Tex Devil]

(from Ball Don't Lie (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/GTAS-comics-What-can-t-Shane-Battier-do-;_ylt=AlW3hquNSjsU42PgcGtk.1fZrYZ4?urn=nba,162683) )

[KandG]

Even more Shane love!


Rockets Think Outside the Arc (http://www.nba.com/rockets/news/Rockets_Think_Outside_The_Arc_-312624-34.html)

"Shane Battier is on a roll.

He’s reminiscing about his senior season at Duke, a year which would culminate with him finally attaining his long-desired goal of winning a national championship. He has no doubt told this story too many times to count, but that fact alone does nothing to detract from the smile on his face or the gleam in his eye.

Battier recounts this tale with extreme pride, and deservingly so. For though that particular Duke team was supremely talented – boasting future NBA players like Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy Jr., Jay Williams and Chris Duhon – there was a time when some doubted and even dismissed his Blue Devils’ status as true title contenders."

I'm only excerpting a tiny bit because of copyright issues, but the above is a must read for the way Shane compares Duke 2001 to Rockets 2009.


Notes From Rockets' Practice (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-40-58/Notes-from-Rockets-Practice.html)

Money quote: Battier then went on to credit the Rockets' cult status among stat geeks to Rockets' general manager, Daryl Morey. "It's who we are," Battier said. "I don't think we're going to get the love of the six foot blonde bombshell. That's what the Lakers are here for. It's alright, I like our demographic."

[BlueintheFace]

Even more Shane love!


Rockets Think Outside the Arc (http://www.nba.com/rockets/news/Rockets_Think_Outside_The_Arc_-312624-34.html)

"Shane Battier is on a roll.

He’s reminiscing about his senior season at Duke, a year which would culminate with him finally attaining his long-desired goal of winning a national championship. He has no doubt told this story too many times to count, but that fact alone does nothing to detract from the smile on his face or the gleam in his eye.

Battier recounts this tale with extreme pride, and deservingly so. For though that particular Duke team was supremely talented – boasting future NBA players like Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy Jr., Jay Williams and Chris Duhon – there was a time when some doubted and even dismissed his Blue Devils’ status as true title contenders."

I'm only excerpting a tiny bit because of copyright issues, but the above is a must read for the way Shane compares Duke 2001 to Rockets 2009.


Notes From Rockets' Practice (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-40-58/Notes-from-Rockets-Practice.html)

Money quote: Battier then went on to credit the Rockets' cult status among stat geeks to Rockets' general manager, Daryl Morey. "It's who we are," Battier said. "I don't think we're going to get the love of the six foot blonde bombshell. That's what the Lakers are here for. It's alright, I like our demographic."

Man I love Shane... There should be a "where amazing happens" commercial that just slowly zooms in on Shane's head until it goes inside his head and there are lightning storms everywhere before a zoom out happens showing Shane making a big steal.

[FireOgilvie]

The end of that Orlando/Boston game was terrible for Orlando. They blew a 14 point lead in the 4th quarter. Also, there's no way the ball actually grazed the rim. They never showed a good angle, but in real time I thought it came up well short of the rim. It barely hit the net. Also, Stan Van Gundy did a miserable job of managing the end of the game. How the heck does Dwight Howard end up on the free throw line? Why is he even in the game? After he made the first one, why does he intentionally miss the second? It made no sense. The "plays" that were run leading up to that were equally terrible. Overall, a huge choke job by Orlando, in the game that would probably determine the series.

[zingit]

The end of that Orlando/Boston game was terrible for Orlando. They blew a 14 point lead in the 4th quarter. Also, there's no way the ball actually grazed the rim. They never showed a good angle, but in real time I thought it came up well short of the rim. It barely hit the net. Also, Stan Van Gundy did a miserable job of managing the end of the game. How the heck does Dwight Howard end up on the free throw line? Why is he even in the game? After he made the first one, why does he intentionally miss the second? It made no sense. The "plays" that were run leading up to that were equally terrible. Overall, a huge choke job by Orlando, in the game that would probably determine the series.

Wait, how do we know he intentionally missed the second FT? I didn't get that impression. And as for the problem that he was the one fouled, I think some of the blame goes to the other players on the floor for not doing a better job of coming to the ball on the inbounds play.

Regardless--yeah, it was a pretty bad choke job. They missed some key rebounds, and their plays should have been going to Rashard Lewis more. It's frustrating that JJ got burned on that final Allen 3-pointer, when he'd been doing a decent job on him defensively throughout the game, and that play will be the only one people see. Also frustrating that again some of the clutch plays for Boston came from Glen Davis (and Marbury). I'd rather have Pierce and Allen beating us than Davis. Very disappointing, as I was rooting for Orlando.

[moonpie23]

i totally thought he intentionally missed the 2nd one....way too hard and he was looking around before it left his hand......


and jj got a moving pic put on him when ray got around him under the basket..

:(


aside from that, it was a terrible finish by the magic....ugh

[BlueintheFace]

i totally thought he intentionally missed the 2nd one....way too hard and he was looking around before it left his hand......


He definitely did. That 2nd shot was nothing like his normal foul shot (as ineffective as that is).

[blueprofessor]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/magic/orl-sportsmagic-celtics-main-13051309may13,0,3180023.story


JJ questions stall ball. Howard criticizes coach. Why only 10 shots? Why was Howard in the game at the end.
Looking like another blown series...and this is deja vu for Magic fans who recall franchise history and the "what might have beens"!:mad:

Best--Blue Prof

Howard video ----questioning Van Gundy's decisions!
http://www.realclearsports.com/video_log/2009/05/dwight-howard-questions-stan-van-gundy-playoffs.html

[moonpie23]

they really did go to stall ball and completely HANDED boston the momentum. How they let ray allen get the ball on boston's inbounds play, and then let NOT let hedo or jj get the ball on the magic's play......sheesh...

bad planning..

[elvis14]

The end of that Orlando/Boston game was terrible for Orlando.

Like others on this board, I've been making it a point to watch Magic games this post season. Mostly I just want to see JJ do well (and I really like Howard as well). After watching last night's debacle, I started thinking about the talent on the Magic (Howard, Lewis, Hedu, JJ, Lee, etc.). Finally I started to imagine what would happen if you take that same team, same players and everything and give them to Phil Jackson, Grep Popovich, Doc Rivers, Coach K :D (any good NBA coach). That's when I finally convinced myself that SVG is a pretty bad coach. I've heard it from others before but I've never watched enough Magic games to form an opinion of my own.

Last night's game was just terrible but it's way beyond that one game. I look at how Howard is used in the offense, how they have shooters standing around, how Hedu is often a black hole on offense, how they don't seem to shoot any 3's by bringing a shooter off a pick, etc. etc. As good as Dwight Howard is, it seems to me that he could be used much better than he is right now. I see Howard set high picks and roll into the paint a bunch. Here's an idea, run that pick and roll with a guard and get the ball to Dwight in the paint with a smaller player on him off a switch! I don't know, it just seems to me that the pieces are there for the Magic to be a better team than they are and I just don't think SVG is getting it done.

[sagegrouse]

Like others on this board, I've been making it a point to watch Magic games this post season. Mostly I just want to see JJ do well (and I really like Howard as well). After watching last night's debacle, I started thinking about the talent on the Magic (Howard, Lewis, Hedu, JJ, Lee, etc.). Finally I started to imagine what would happen if you take that same team, same players and everything and give them to Phil Jackson, Grep Popovich, Doc Rivers, Coach K :D (any good NBA coach). That's when I finally convinced myself that SVG is a pretty bad coach. I've heard it from others before but I've never watched enough Magic games to form an opinion of my own.

Last night's game was just terrible but it's way beyond that one game. I look at how Howard is used in the offense, how they have shooters standing around, how Hedu is often a black hole on offense, how they don't seem to shoot any 3's by bringing a shooter off a pick, etc. etc. As good as Dwight Howard is, it seems to me that he could be used much better than he is right now. I see Howard set high picks and roll into the paint a bunch. Here's an idea, run that pick and roll with a guard and get the ball to Dwight in the paint with a smaller player on him off a switch! I don't know, it just seems to me that the pieces are there for the Magic to be a better team than they are and I just don't think SVG is getting it done.

I would not be surprised if the aftermath of last night's debacle was the beginning of the death knell for Stan Van Gundy as coach of Orlando. This was a game that should not have been lost. The best player on the team (and the best center in the NBA) was critical of the coach and the team. The talking heads last night and today, esp. Mr. Legler, have been relentless.

sagegrouse
'I hear the drums pounding in a deep and steady beat. I know this sound. I see the ravens and crows and circling vultures. I know this omen.'


sagegrouse

[JasonEvans]

The announcers really summed it up when they noted that when the Celtics were going to need to hit FTs, they got the ball to Ray Allen --one of the best FT shooters in NBA history-- but when Orlando knew they were going to shoot FTs, they got the ball to Dwight Howard, one of the worst FT shooters in the league this season.

I think Orlando went into panic mode late in the game. They were taking just horrid shots. The Celtics, meanwhile, pretty much shot nothing but layups for the final 4 minutes. That is a reflection of coaching, pure and simple.

With the Celtics banged up this much, Orlando is a muuuuch more talented team and should be in control in this series. I won't be at all surprised if the Magic are in search of a new coach if they blow this series.

--Jason "Stan Van Gundy may be almost as bad a coach as Mike Woodson" Evans

[CDu]

The announcers really summed it up when they noted that when the Celtics were going to need to hit FTs, they got the ball to Ray Allen --one of the best FT shooters in NBA history-- but when Orlando knew they were going to shoot FTs, they got the ball to Dwight Howard, one of the worst FT shooters in the league this season.

I think Orlando went into panic mode late in the game. They were taking just horrid shots. The Celtics, meanwhile, pretty much shot nothing but layups for the final 4 minutes. That is a reflection of coaching, pure and simple.

With the Celtics banged up this much, Orlando is a muuuuch more talented team and should be in control in this series. I won't be at all surprised if the Magic are in search of a new coach if they blow this series.

--Jason "Stan Van Gundy may be almost as bad a coach as Mike Woodson" Evans

Orlando has some flaws. They have a great athlete in the post who can't shoot at all. So unless he gets the ball within 5 feet of the rim or can back his man to the rim, he's not worth much on offense. Then they play three wings who are all basically perimeter shooters (Lewis can post up smaller guys, but struggles against bigger guys) and aren't great off the dribble. They'd be great if they had a PG who could shoot consistently and create for himself or others off the dribble, but their original starting PG can't shoot and their current starting PG can't shoot and isn't a great passer.

So when they're shooting well or defending well, they can dominate games. But if the game gets into a halfcourt set against a team with committed defensive players in the post, Orlando becomes completely reliant on hitting 3s.

Boston has done a good job of keeping Howard away from the rim for the most part in this series and they've made it a half court game. This has exposed Orlando's flaws pretty well, even though Boston isn't that impressive a team without KG.

[blueprofessor]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090513


Magic's winning % is high when Howard takes fewer shot... and other interesting stats.

Best--Blueprofessor:)

[robed deity]

Orlando has some flaws. They have a great athlete in the post who can't shoot at all. So unless he gets the ball within 5 feet of the rim or can back his man to the rim, he's not worth much on offense. Then they play three wings who are all basically perimeter shooters (Lewis can post up smaller guys, but struggles against bigger guys) and aren't great off the dribble. They'd be great if they had a PG who could shoot consistently and create for himself or others off the dribble, but their original starting PG can't shoot and their current starting PG can't shoot and isn't a great passer.

Agreed that Orlando has major flaws, but if you are talking about Jameer Nelson as their original pg, he was playing great before he separated his shoulder. Through 42 games this year, he was shooting 50 percent and 45 from three-land. Alston is adequate, but they really miss Nelson's shooting and toughness right now.

[CDu]

Agreed that Orlando has major flaws, but if you are talking about Jameer Nelson as their original pg, he was playing great before he separated his shoulder. Through 42 games this year, he was shooting 50 percent and 45 from three-land. Alston is adequate, but they really miss Nelson's shooting and toughness right now.

Yeah, Nelson had really improved his shooting. He'd make a big difference. Though I still contend that they'd be better off with a playmaker like Rondo rather than Nelson, who is a score-first player. With shooters like Lewis, Turkoglu, and Redick, and a finisher near the rim like Howard, they'd be better off. They'd also be better off with Nelson in place of Alston, because Nelson can actually shoot a bit.

[NSDukeFan]

Yeah, Nelson had really improved his shooting. He'd make a big difference. Though I still contend that they'd be better off with a playmaker like Rondo rather than Nelson, who is a score-first player. With shooters like Lewis, Turkoglu, and Redick, and a finisher near the rim like Howard, they'd be better off. They'd also be better off with Nelson in place of Alston, because Nelson can actually shoot a bit.

Add this team to the list of those who could use John Wall?

[dukelifer]

The announcers really summed it up when they noted that when the Celtics were going to need to hit FTs, they got the ball to Ray Allen --one of the best FT shooters in NBA history-- but when Orlando knew they were going to shoot FTs, they got the ball to Dwight Howard, one of the worst FT shooters in the league this season.

I think Orlando went into panic mode late in the game. They were taking just horrid shots. The Celtics, meanwhile, pretty much shot nothing but layups for the final 4 minutes. That is a reflection of coaching, pure and simple.

With the Celtics banged up this much, Orlando is a muuuuch more talented team and should be in control in this series. I won't be at all surprised if the Magic are in search of a new coach if they blow this series.

--Jason "Stan Van Gundy may be almost as bad a coach as Mike Woodson" Evans

I agree. Orlando has handed this series to Boston. Orlando is either poorly coached or the players do not respect Van Gundy- because they do not really use their talent effectively. They have blown big leads by playing very dumb basketball over long stretches. It is almost painful to watch them at times.

[blueprofessor]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/orl-sportsmagic-celtics-main14051409may14,0,99033.story


Howard has only the power move---no repertoire on offense. Perkins is handling him well.Howard's 5 baskets came on dish passes from drivers.What was the sense of giving him the ball in half court sets when Perkins bodied him and since Howard is a poor foul shooter? The 3 Magic players who scored well during the game got the ball in the last 6 minutes. They did not convert.

Best--Blue Prof:)

[BlueintheFace]

The Clutch teams of the early 90's were amazing, but the Rockets team that has come together in this series has a special place for me. I mean, the starting lineup is Brooks, Battier, Artest, Landry, and Hayes. LOOK AT THAT LINEUP, just look at it....and they have now taken two off of LA with those guys. Wow.

[hc5duke]

The Clutch teams of the early 90's were amazing, but the Rockets team that has come together in this series has a special place for me. I mean, the starting lineup is Brooks, Battier, Artest, Landry, and Hayes. LOOK AT THAT LINEUP, just look at it....and they have now taken two off of LA with those guys. Wow.

completely agree. while we're talking about the 90s Rockets, is it just me, or does Von Wafer's jumpshot remind you of Clyde Drexler's? Don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing the two in any other way, but the slight mid-air hesitation reminds me so much of the odd looking Drexler jump shots that always seemed to go in. I was very anti Ron Artest trade when it happened, and I'm eating my crow now. This is probably my favorite Rockets team since Barkley was consuming Shipley's donuts.