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View Full Version : Be Careful What you Post on Any Site--Recruiting



CameronBornAndBred
04-11-2009, 03:57 PM
A freshmen at State might have gotten the NCSU program in some hot water over John Wall.
http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/story/9442266/Hi-tech-foul:-Facebook-plea-stirs-up-trouble

As several have stated here in the past, when you post on a site like DBR, or Facebook, or wherever, you are posting as a booster. This case is a shining example of that. Be careful what you write.

Cameron
04-11-2009, 04:31 PM
The NCAA really needs to get real.

Facebook as a "Bills and Mills" edge in recruitment? They can't be serious.

That's the world we live in, though. So, take heed, I guess.

Virginian
04-11-2009, 05:49 PM
The NCAA really needs to get real.

Facebook as a "Bills and Mills" edge in recruitment? They can't be serious.

That's the world we live in, though. So, take heed, I guess.

No one wants to get our school in NCAA hot water. And I have zero interest in making a test case out of this. But really. The NCAA really needs to get its actions in line with relevant law. No way any member school is going to be able to deny a student's First Amendment rights. When NCAA's Christianson says "we don't see this as a free speech issue,"he's just full of baloney.

Could the NCAA penalize a school because its students held up signs at a game urging a visiting recruit to attend the school? If I somehow happen to meet some recruit and say "Boy, it'd be great to see you play for Duke," is the NCAA going to come after me?

I hope somebody does make a test case out of this and gets the ACLU to take a couple ounces of skin off the hides of people like Christianson. Sheesh.

gep
04-11-2009, 08:29 PM
Could the NCAA penalize a school because its students held up signs at a game urging a visiting recruit to attend the school? If I somehow happen to meet some recruit and say "Boy, it'd be great to see you play for Duke," is the NCAA going to come after me?

I think the difference may be that when students hold up signs, it's clearly the students. When you speak to a recruit, it's clearly you. But an internet bulletin board, or Facebook, etc are clearly anonymous... no one knows who's really behind it. While I don't think a school will do it... why wouldn't boosters... :rolleyes: Shouldn't free speech be by "someone", as opposed to "some website"? (obviously I'm no expert on this)

Virginian
04-11-2009, 10:08 PM
I think the difference may be that when students hold up signs, it's clearly the students. When you speak to a recruit, it's clearly you. But an internet bulletin board, or Facebook, etc are clearly anonymous... no one knows who's really behind it. While I don't think a school will do it... why wouldn't boosters... :rolleyes: Shouldn't free speech be by "someone", as opposed to "some website"? (obviously I'm no expert on this)

I see the point you're after and it's reasonable. But my beef concerns when the NCAA is going after someone they can identify who clearly is a student or fan. I mean, the guy in the Cameron stands with a sign MAY be a student, but how can you really tell? He's totally anonymous. But if you have a Facebook page it's pretty easy to see that it's a real person behind the page -- that's how you set up your Facebook page. It all just seems very much a case of over-reaching to me. If they're going to define any average joe as a "booster" then no one is free to speak his mind.

I realize this isn't nuclear holocaust here. It just seems silly on the part of the NCAA to pursue this with such a big hammer when a little thought would make it clear that the association has to have a better grasp of what the technological implications are: they just can't control every aspect of recruitment "contact."

moonpie23
04-12-2009, 12:30 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=4060673



this seems in conflict with the first amendment.....


legal eagles?


oops....sorry...this should prolly be in the other thread...

moonpie23
04-12-2009, 08:07 AM
what's the difference between what's put up on a Facebook page that john wall MIGHT read Vs something said here? (he might read this too)

Indoor66
04-12-2009, 09:22 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=4060673



this seems in conflict with the first amendment.....


legal eagles?


oops....sorry...this should prolly be in the other thread...

What does "prolly" mean?

TheRose77
04-12-2009, 11:46 AM
"Prolly" is short for probably.

sagegrouse
04-12-2009, 11:57 AM
"Prolly" is short for probably.

Yeah! Haven't you ever visited Ballmer, Lullville or Nawlins? (Or Durm, for that matter?)

sagegrouse

Exiled_Devil
04-12-2009, 12:18 PM
what's the difference between what's put up on a Facebook page that john wall MIGHT read Vs something said here? (he might read this too)

I would guess that the difference is that Facebook is not a DUKE site. DBR, even though unofficial, is clearly a Duke Basketball site. Facebook is, for lack of a better term, a digital commons. It's reasonable to assume that Wall has a FB profile and that he woudl encounter the grops in his time on that site.

The point that people seem to be missing in the conversations about this is that the rules are in place to protect the recruits. The NCAA is trying to limit the intrusions in the life of the high school students who are about to become college athletes. That is not a trivial thing, and should be taken into account.

A-Tex Devil
04-12-2009, 12:40 PM
I see the point you're after and it's reasonable. But my beef concerns when the NCAA is going after someone they can identify who clearly is a student or fan. I mean, the guy in the Cameron stands with a sign MAY be a student, but how can you really tell? He's totally anonymous. But if you have a Facebook page it's pretty easy to see that it's a real person behind the page -- that's how you set up your Facebook page. It all just seems very much a case of over-reaching to me. If they're going to define any average joe as a "booster" then no one is free to speak his mind.

I realize this isn't nuclear holocaust here. It just seems silly on the part of the NCAA to pursue this with such a big hammer when a little thought would make it clear that the association has to have a better grasp of what the technological implications are: they just can't control every aspect of recruitment "contact."

If I put up a Facebook page called "John Wall, please come to my alma mater located in Durham North Carolina with a big gothic chapel and you might get weekly fedex envelopes with $5K." The NCAA can't make me take it down, I don't **THINK** Duke could make me take it down so long as I'm not illegally using any trademarks, etc. (unless there is some tort I'm not thinking of).

Either could ASK me to take it down. Facebook could take it down. But I don't believe there is anything inherently illegal about that. (In fact, is it even illegal to pay players to go to college or simply against NCAA Rules?)

What **COULD** happen is that the NCAA could penalize DUKE in some way if they aren't able to get me to take that Facebook site down. And therein lies the potential problem. As people mentioned, this could cause fake sites set up by rivals. The NCAA needs to simply back off here except in extreme cases, or they are going to be opening a Pandora's box of problems that they neither have the time or the resources to enforce.

moonpie23
04-12-2009, 12:59 PM
I would guess that the difference is that Facebook is not a DUKE site. DBR, even though unofficial, is clearly a Duke Basketball site. Facebook is, for lack of a better term, a digital commons. It's reasonable to assume that Wall has a FB profile and that he woudl encounter the grops in his time on that site.

The point that people seem to be missing in the conversations about this is that the rules are in place to protect the recruits. The NCAA is trying to limit the intrusions in the life of the high school students who are about to become college athletes. That is not a trivial thing, and should be taken into account.

i would think that wall, being recruited by duke, would be MORE likely to read this board than to pay attention to a gigantic social network.

the much broader question is, how can the NCAA possibly isolate the recruit from being "intruded upon"? Realistically, a guy at the barber shop could be talking to him about which school he should go to..

-jk
04-12-2009, 03:04 PM
If I put up a Facebook page called "John Wall, please come to my alma mater located in Durham North Carolina with a big gothic chapel and you might get weekly fedex envelopes with $5K." The NCAA can't make me take it down, I don't **THINK** Duke could make me take it down so long as I'm not illegally using any trademarks, etc. (unless there is some tort I'm not thinking of).

Either could ASK me to take it down. Facebook could take it down. But I don't believe there is anything inherently illegal about that. (In fact, is it even illegal to pay players to go to college or simply against NCAA Rules?)

What **COULD** happen is that the NCAA could penalize DUKE in some way if they aren't able to get me to take that Facebook site down. And therein lies the potential problem. As people mentioned, this could cause fake sites set up by rivals. The NCAA needs to simply back off here except in extreme cases, or they are going to be opening a Pandora's box of problems that they neither have the time or the resources to enforce.

Duke may not be able to force you to remove it, but they can deem you persona non grata and bar you from campus and all official Duke functions.

Personally, I like my seats...

-jk

A-Tex Devil
04-12-2009, 04:58 PM
Duke may not be able to force you to remove it, but they can deem you persona non grata and bar you from campus and all official Duke functions.

Personally, I like my seats...

-jk

I completely agree. My point, not made very well, was more that it's the school, not the person, that is going to get in "trouble" with the NCAA. THe NCAA can't stop people from setting up web pages, nor can the schools in most cases. But the NCAA can penalize the school. If the NCAA starts wasting time trolling Facebook (and I don't know that it has yet -- it was NC State, not the NCAA, that sent a note to the kid with the Wall site to take it down), some enterprising young net denizens are gonna figure out a way to cause trouble.

Did you hear about the NFL teams setting up fake facebook pages for attractive women then trying to "friend" potential draftees to fish for potential character flaws? Wild stuff.

geraldsneighbor
04-12-2009, 11:23 PM
I saw a UNC fan holding up a "John Wall Come to UNC." I want an investigation on that as soon as possible NCAA!!!!



I actually saw it at the Hoop Summit. True Story.

Truth
04-13-2009, 12:23 PM
I saw a UNC fan holding up a "John Wall Come to UNC." I want an investigation on that as soon as possible NCAA!!!!

I actually saw it at the Hoop Summit. True Story.

<insert tongue in cheek> No problem, GeraldsNeighbor. Simply create a "John Wall Come to UNC" Facebook group while posing as a UNC student. Do this repeatedly. Make several groups. Get thousands of people to join. I am sure many legitimate UNC fans and students would happily join. Garner as much media attention as possible. In no time, you will bring the force of the NCAA down upon UNC!
</remove tongue from cheek>

Seriously, what's to prevent people from imitating one another's fanbase bases to continually cause these "problems" for the NCAA?

kexman
04-13-2009, 12:37 PM
I don't remember the specifics, but I thought as alumni I am not allowed to make contact with potential recruits. I'm not sure the specifics...not allowed to give them $5K, not try to convince them of the benefits of attending Duke, or saying "hi, we would love to have you at Duke." I think the first 2 are not allowed...not sure about number 3 (or at least enforced). I guess the question is than how they pertain to the electronic age. I'm allowed to talk about a player at the water cooler since John Wall is not in ear shot. However, the "water cooler" that is DBR can be read by everyone so he is in earshot.
Lots of NCAA rules are crazy:)

p.s. Instead of setting up a facebook site can't I just put on a Kentucky sweatshirt and slip the guy a $100. Take a picture that obscures facial features except for the large Kentucky logo and send to the NCAA. Better yet, head on over to Franklin Street and buy Ed Davis dinner or something:)

moonpie23
04-13-2009, 02:24 PM
as a person that has to come into contact with lawyers on a pretty-much daily basis....i'm awed at the things that the NCAA is allowed to get away with...

and seemingly without challenge (or much of one anyway)

devil84
04-13-2009, 02:56 PM
In response to kexman's comments about not knowing the specifics of the rules (but he's got the right idea), I'm posting a summary of the rules sent out by Duke University Athletics, Compliance Office. This is sent out every year to boosters and former athletes (and maybe others). I'm sure there are far more rules, but this summary covers quite a bit of ground.

First, some definitions:
* You are a "representative of athletic interests" if, among other things, you made a financial contribution to the athletics department or booster organization (e.g., Iron Dukes), or are a former student or fan of Duke. Once you have been identified as a Representative of Athletics Interest, you retain that identity indefinitely. I would guess that includes anybody who posts or lurks on DBR. So I'll use "you" to describe a representative of athletic interests from now on.

* A prospect is a student who has started classes for the ninth grade. Note that there is no mention of interest or abilities. So any ninth grader on any sports team is a "prospect."

So, the rules are:

* You can't call, write, or contact a prospect. You can have a telephone conversation with the prospect IF the prospect calls you and you don't talk about recruiting.

* You can't contact a current NCAA student-athlete at another institution unless permission is granted from that institution.

* Only coaches and authorized staff can participate in recruiting activities. This means don't contact a prospect's coach, principal, or counselor. You can notify Duke's coaching staff of possible prospects in your area, but you cannot contact the prospects (or their coaches, teachers, friends, or relatives).

* You cannot provide any type of transportation to a current student-athlete or a prospect. This includes arranging transportation or financial assistance to obtain a vehicle (like co-signing a loan).

* You cannot prove any type of financial assistance to a prospect or current student.

* You cannot provide extra benefits to current student-athletes or prospects. This includes (and is not limited to): clothing, cash, any tangible items or merchandise, free or reduced cost services, meals at a restaurants, etc.

* You cannot use the name or likeness of a current student-athlete to advertise or promote a service or product.

* Duke is held responsible for anything you do related to Duke student-athletes and prospects. Your behavior can wind up getting the athlete declared ineligible or getting Duke sanctioned by the NCAA.

My guess (and it is just that: a guess) is that one could view a thread on DBR (like the "John Wall Recruitment" thread) as fans talking to other fans about a prospect, and therefore it does not fall under the "contacting a prospect" guidelines. The prospect reading it would be the one making contact with the fans. Now if that thread were "John Wall -- please come to Duke" with posts from many fans imploring him to come to Duke, that could be in violation of the guidelines, as the fans are attempting to make contact with him. The same can be said of the facebook group that NCSU shut down.

Of course, I am not a compliance officer, but I am a former team member, I've helped with recruiting in my student years, and I'm a current financial contributor and therefore receive the mailings advising us of the rules.

moonpie23
04-13-2009, 03:39 PM
ok...thanks for those.....great safety tips..

question....

it seems as if, from what you say, that any FAN is a "representative" and therefore can not discuss recruiting with the prospect.


are we to assume that ANY online presentation is violating this?

devil84
04-13-2009, 09:37 PM
ok...thanks for those.....great safety tips..

question....

it seems as if, from what you say, that any FAN is a "representative" and therefore can not discuss recruiting with the prospect.

are we to assume that ANY online presentation is violating this?

Yes, it appears that any fan is a "representative" and cannot contact the prospect.

Determining how to keep themselves out of trouble is up to each school to figure out, and I don't presume to speak for Duke. Nor do I speak officially for DBR. My personal opinion is that if we discuss a prospect or student-athlete in a fan-to-fan format, we are not violating any rules. So comments like, "He'd fit into our system well. I'd love to see John Doe in a Duke uniform next year" is OK to post. The content posted is not trying to make contact with John Doe to influence him.

However, if we create something online with the intent to contact and sway him, as in a thread (or blog or facebook page) entitled, "John Doe, PLEASE COME TO DUKE!" consisting solely of posts imploring him to come to Duke, that could be seen as trying to contact and influence John Doe.

The same would have been true of "Seth Curry contemplates ACC schools" vs. "Seth Curry: PLEASE TRANSFER TO DUKE!" before the transfer became official.

Do understand that anything posted here is seen by Duke coaches, Duke players, recruits, potential transfers, and their friends and families. While I'm sure there's an influence -- "Wow, a thread about me [my kid, my player, my friend] is HUGE and so positive!" But, IMHO, we need to make sure the discussion is about the prospect, not directed to the prospect.

Anyone reading from DUAA, the compliance office, or who has more information than me, please feel free to jump in (or PM me or any other mod and we'll pass along the information).

kexman
04-14-2009, 12:59 AM
Thanks for the clarification of the rules. Just to be safe do not talk to, hold a door, or make eye contact with any young people in the 14-18 year old category... especially if they appear athletic. It might be a violation:)

Slackerb
04-15-2009, 09:51 AM
Do a Facebook search of how many John Wall groups are out there.

There already is a John Wall belongs at UNC group.

Kentucky has an 1800+ member group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?sid=41476a171e67124f7a4d3603c47cdade&gid=125835925077&ref=search

Memphis has a 385 member group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?sid=41476a171e67124f7a4d3603c47cdade&gid=52475231106&ref=search

It's silly at best...and especially so that State has to take their page supporting Wall's recruitment down and the rest remain.