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gw67
04-10-2009, 09:48 AM
DBR asks this question on the front page after McClinton refused to go to the Portsmouth camp and Marty Blake commented that he should fire his agent. By the way, how old is Marty? I recall that he was the GM of the St. Louis Hawks (Petit, Hagan, Lovellette/Beatty) over 50 years ago.

I may be the least knowledgeable person on this site when it comes to knowing what it takes to make the NBA but I think that Blake is all wet. The NBA types love these camps but, IMO, the players have shown their capabilities in dozens of college games. Marty said the same thing about Steve Blake who relied on individual team tryouts and is now a starting guard on a good NBA team. Steve's tryout with the Wizards coincided with the tryout of Hinrich and his play against Hinrich plus his four year career at Maryland convinced them to draft him in the second round. Except for the super stars, I think that making the NBA and carving out some playing time depends more on the team that selects the player. If it is a good match, the player will get some opportunities.

By the way, I don't think that Davis of UNC is ready for the NBA. He is skinny and has a very limited offensive game for a youngster who will need to play away from the basket. Staying at Carolina for another year would seem to be very beneficial but what do I know.

gw67

moonpie23
04-10-2009, 09:51 AM
By the way, I don't think that Davis of UNC is ready for the NBA. He is skinny
gw67

tashaun prince..


i don't think jj hixson went to any of those "camps" last year either...

JasonEvans
04-10-2009, 10:07 AM
By the way, I don't think that Davis of UNC is ready for the NBA. He is skinny and has a very limited offensive game for a youngster who will need to play away from the basket. Staying at Carolina for another year would seem to be very beneficial but what do I know.

gw67

Since when did "being ready" matter at all in draft status/decisions? Probably half of last year's draft was not "ready" but they went anyway and many of them sat on NBA benches while earning millions of dollars to learn the game. There is an argument that they get ready faster in the NBA (they play more ball and face better competition and don't have to worry about school) than if they stay in school anyway. Not sure I agree with it, but "being ready" is only a tiny, tiny part of the equation when you are talking about kids with the draft potential of Davis.

--Jason "Lebron was not ready" Evans

gw67
04-10-2009, 10:10 AM
moonpie - Prince is indeed skinny but he can handle the ball, pass, has an outside shot and can guard on the perimeter. Davis was an inside player for the Heels (he backed up Thompson and Hansbrough). Being skinny and playing inside is a whole different matter than playing on the perimeter and Davis has NOT shown that he has any offensive game beyond ten feet.

gw67

sandinmyshoes
04-10-2009, 10:10 AM
I think these camps are more valuable for lesser known guys. Players who played in the shadows of better known teammates, ect. I think the NBA teams can often get what they really want to see, true height/weight and so forth from individual workouts. So if your agent can schedule a number of those, you're probably better off doing that.

As for Davis, I agree that he's not ready for the NBA, but if someone guarantees they will pick him top five, does it matter? That would be a point where his parents might advise him to stay for reasons beyond just money. Let him get some mental and physical maturity. But there would seem to be little finanicial reason for staying.

Matches
04-10-2009, 10:14 AM
As for Davis, I agree that he's not ready for the NBA, but if someone guarantees they will pick him top five, does it matter?

I don't see how. He can always go back to school at a later date, and he'll have millions of dollars to finance his education if he chooses to do so. Weighing the risk of injury, the risk of weaknesses in his game being exposed with more playing time, and the relative strength of this year's draft vs. next year's - how does a top five pick NOT go? It'd be different if he could improve his stock significantly by staying another year, but he can't. He's in a Dunleavy/ Marvin Williams situation.

sagegrouse
04-10-2009, 10:29 AM
DBR asks this question on the front page after McClinton refused to go to the Portsmouth camp and Marty Blake commented that he should fire his agent. By the way, how old is Marty? I recall that he was the GM of the St. Louis Hawks (Petit, Hagan, Lovellette/Beatty) over 50 years ago.

gw67

First of all, it wasn't Marty Blake; it was someone named Ryan Blake.

Second, the father admitted that Mcclinton was still injured, which may change things.

sagegrouse

sandinmyshoes
04-10-2009, 10:32 AM
As I alluded about Davis, I think the only reason for not going would be if his parents simply did not think he was ready physically and mentally (and had enough influence to affect his decision).

The concern there would not be about his pro-potential, but how the pro lifestyle could possibly damage him as a person. In which case, they could take out an insurance policy against injury and give him another year to mature. In addition to becoming stronger he would also be working on his skill set.

Other than that, I can't see why he'd come back. However, as a parent, I could see where those are worthwhile concerns.

SupaDave
04-10-2009, 10:46 AM
Tyrus Thomas = Ed Davis.

Olympic Fan
04-10-2009, 10:49 AM
Just a couple of observations:

-- Reading the McClinton story on the blog is an eye-opening experience, especially when you read the comment section afterwards. It takes about three comments for the whole thing to devolve into a P***ing match between Miami and Florida fans about FOOTBALL recruiting. To me, that says a lot about the sports focus in South Florida.

-- The comments are from Ryan Blake, not Marty Blake. But I can see the confusion -- he sounds exactly like Marty, who ALWAYS thought the kids were making a mistake by passing on the pre-draft camps that he oversaw.

-- Interesting that this thread would devolve into a debate about Ed Davis and his draft status. That says a lot about the sports focus on Tobacco Road. I do think it's interesting that UNC fans -- who used to rip Coach K for "brainwashing" kids to stay, while the sainted Dean Smith advised his top draft picks to go when they were top 10 -- now come up with all these reasons why a kid projected to go in the top 5 should stay.

Not saying I disagree ... only noting the hypocricy of the situation (which I freely admit, applies to Duke fans who thought Grant and Jason should stay, while now thinking Davis should go).

Matches
04-10-2009, 10:59 AM
My own thinking has done a 180. I used to think EVERYONE should stay. College education is a wonderful thing, and I think everyone who has an oppotunity to get one should get one.

But the landscape clearly has changed. Colleges have more non-traditional students every year - leaving for the NBA doesn't shut that door forever, just postpones it. It's easy for me to sit around opining that you can't put a price tag on education when it's not my money being used to pay the tab.

blueprofessor
04-10-2009, 11:15 AM
DBR asks this question on the front page after McClinton refused to go to the Portsmouth camp and Marty Blake commented that he should fire his agent. By the way, how old is Marty? I recall that he was the GM of the St. Louis Hawks (Petit, Hagan, Lovellette/Beatty) over 50 years ago.



gw67

gw67,thanks for the Blake recall. They were the Milwaukee Hawks when Marty was hired as GM in 1954. He is 81 or 82 years old and one of the true characters in NBA history. I,too, loved the Hawks ,esp. against the hated Celtics, a team I came to admire when I saw them play in person while in school there.
The Hawks moved to St. Louis in 1955. the franchise has to be one of the movingest in NBA history as it was based in the Tri-Cities before moving to Milwaukee.

Best regards---Blue Prof :)

CDu
04-10-2009, 11:27 AM
Tyrus Thomas = Ed Davis.

Tyrus Thomas is a very good comparison. Both were extremely athletic with long arms but lacked muscle. Both rebounded well (Davis is actually a better per-minute rebounder) and both blocked shots well. Neither had a very polished offensive game, and both are "high ceiling" players. Davis might be a bit taller and more comfortable with his back to the basket, but is less of a leaper (Thomas is a freak athlete).

Thomas went #4 in the draft, though he was immediately traded for the #2 pick LaMarcus Aldridge. He was drafted on potential and having a "high motor." He has since struggled to establish himself - partly because he didn't mesh well with the previous coach, and partly because he struggled to adapt to the physical game despite being undersized. He's emerged this year as a more consistent presence under a new coach and a new system with a PG who can create opportunities.

But yeah, there is certainly a track record in the NBA of drafting guys on potential. Davis's height, length, rebounding prowess, athleticism, and comfort playing with his back to the basket would make him most likely a top-5 pick based on potential alone if he decides to go. Now he just needs to decide to go! :)

jma4life
04-10-2009, 11:55 AM
Davis has or will develop a far better low post game than Thomas. He is much more skilled, though probably not as freakishly athletic as Thomas. Davis should be a much more effective post player.

Ultimately, its Davis' decision. I think there are very valid reasons for him to stay, certainly better reasons than Jason Williams had a few years ago. So ultimately, regardless of the pros and cons of staying or going, it should come down to what he wants to do.

And Jason, I'm pretty sure Lebron over 20, 5 and 5 his rookie season. Do you really believe he was not ready in terms of his ability to play? That's a better statistical season than all but a few Dukies have ever had.

UrinalCake
04-10-2009, 12:08 PM
But yeah, there is certainly a track record in the NBA of drafting guys on potential. Davis's height, length, rebounding prowess, athleticism, and comfort playing with his back to the basket would make him most likely a top-5 pick based on potential alone if he decides to go. Now he just needs to decide to go! :)

Isn't he also a lot like Marvin Williams and Brendan Wright? That would make three one-and-done'ers for UNC in like four years, all of whom are long, slender forwards who weren't even starters but were lottery picks based on potential.

BD80
04-10-2009, 12:12 PM
An important part of the college experience is the social interaction with age peers. That cannot be recaptured after several years in the NBA. There are no absolutes, but generally, I think the young men who actually embrace the college experience become more socially well adjusted than those who attempt to avoid the college experience and find peers / role models in other places. There hasn't been a significant enough universe to prove the point. Would Shane have turned out well with just one year of college? Sure. Would Iverson have been a tool even if he had stayed 4 years at Georgetown? You bet. My point is that there are benefits to be had in personal development that cannot be recaptured later on.

This is particularly true at Duke, where there is a great college experience to be had, an honorable bball coach to root for, and a noble shade of blue to wear. Poor Ed Davis would have to deal 'ol roy and be condemned to wear an obnoxious shade of blue. The psychological damage could be significant and irreversible. I see no contradiction here. Duke players should stay and tar heels should go. It is for their own good!

SupaDave
04-10-2009, 12:22 PM
An important part of the college experience is the social interaction with age peers. That cannot be recaptured after several years in the NBA. There are no absolutes, but generally, I think the young men who actually embrace the college experience become more socially well adjusted than those who attempt to avoid the college experience and find peers / role models in other places. There hasn't been a significant enough universe to prove the point. Would Shane have turned out well with just one year of college? Sure. Would Iverson have been a tool even if he had stayed 4 years at Georgetown? You bet. My point is that there are benefits to be had in personal development that cannot be recaptured later on.

This is particularly true at Duke, where there is a great college experience to be had, an honorable bball coach to root for, and a noble shade of blue to wear. Poor Ed Davis would have to deal 'ol roy and be condemned to wear an obnoxious shade of blue. The psychological damage could be significant and irreversible. I see no contradiction here. Duke players should stay and tar heels should go. It is for their own good!

As much as I like your sentiment (but strongly disagree that Iverson is a "tool" b/c he's actually a friend of mine), folks like Kobe, Garnett, Lebron, Bynum and even Shaun Livington destroy that argument. Not to mention that there's more flops that attended college than compared to those who did not. If you haven't noticed, the NBA is chock full of 20 something year olds. Not really out of your peer group there...

CDu
04-10-2009, 12:48 PM
Isn't he also a lot like Marvin Williams and Brendan Wright? That would make three one-and-done'ers for UNC in like four years, all of whom are long, slender forwards who weren't even starters but were lottery picks based on potential.

The scenarios are very similar, but I wouldn't say he's too similar to Williams or Wright as players. He's similar in frame to Wright (though he's probably taller and has longer arms), while he's not as filled out as Williams. But aside from being freshmen 6'8"-6'10" guys who could be lotto picks, the games differ.

Williams was a more versatile player, able to shoot and pass well. He was a 6'9" kid with a game suited to transition to SF in the NBA (which he has done fairly well). At the same time, Williams wasn't nearly the post presence on either end of the court as Davis.

Wright is more similar in terms of size and skillset, but Davis is better. Wright was fairly soft, whereas Davis has shown to be a better and more consistent presence in the paint. Wright had the potential to be a post presence, whereas Davis showed that presence regularly. Note that Davis had more rebounds than Wright did and nearly matched Wright in blocked shots despite playing 9 fewer minutes per game.

But yeah, if you just mean in terms of being drafted almost entirely on potential, he's very similar to Williams and Wright.

BD80
04-10-2009, 01:37 PM
As much as I like your sentiment (but strongly disagree that Iverson is a "tool" b/c he's actually a friend of mine), folks like Kobe, Garnett, Lebron, Bynum and even Shaun Livingston destroy that argument. Not to mention that there's more flops that attended college than compared to those who did not. If you haven't noticed, the NBA is chock full of 20 something year olds. Not really out of your peer group there...

They don't destroy the argument, they are examples of young men who were successful without college. They would likely have been even better people if they had gone to college. Kobe, for one, could improve his people skills. Many have blamed Kobe for breaking up the Lakers when they were world champions. It has often been reported that Kobe felt isolated for his first several years as a pro, and would stay in his hotel room and play video games. His development in dealing with team mates has been stunted, to say the least. Again, there isn't a large enough sampling to draw conclusions, but there are plenty of early entrants that could have used some time or more time in college.

You cite Bynum as "destroying" my argument. Is that Andrew Bynum, the kid who was supposedly rehabilitating an injury and was photographed at the Playboy Mansion with a bunny on his shoulders? While his teammates are trying to lock up home court throughout the playoffs? Some might suggest that a year or two in college would have helped him blow off that steam and mature a bit before turning pro.

The biggest flops tend not to attend college - Kwame, Darko.

As for Iverson, I am sorry to criticize a friend of yours, but you cannot deny that he is a tool when it comes to team dynamics. His teams IMPROVE when he leaves, and he caused a fuss about coming off the bench for the Pistons when it was proven that the Pistons were WORSE with AI as a starter. In my mind that is inexcusable. All the social and family stuff about the domestic disputes with his wife and his rap songs about shooting police could have been blown out of proportion. I obviously don't like AI's image, but I don't know him personally. For all I know, his image is a facade has constructed to enhance his endorsements.

I would suggest however, that AI would have done well to have stayed at Georgetown for a few more years. He would have been a better person for the education and would not have made as many missteps.

SupaDave
04-10-2009, 02:14 PM
[QUOTE]They don't destroy the argument, they are examples of young men who were successful without college. They would likely have been even better people if they had gone to college. Kobe, for one, could improve his people skills. Many have blamed Kobe for breaking up the Lakers when they were world champions. It has often been reported that Kobe felt isolated for his first several years as a pro, and would stay in his hotel room and play video games. His development in dealing with team mates has been stunted, to say the least. Again, there isn't a large enough sampling to draw conclusions, but there are plenty of early entrants that could have used some time or more time in college.

Need more? Tracy McGrady, Moses Malone (won a championship), Darryl Dawkins, and Jermaine O'Neal.

College does NOT teach people skills. Sorry but people have to want to do that on their own. Kobe has ALWAYS been different but blaming him for breaking up the Lakers? Please. From what I'm seeing it looks like a pretty good business arrangement. Shaq's on his 4th team and Kobe is... SUPRISE!! Still with the Lakers... By the way, have you seen their record lately?


You cite Bynum as "destroying" my argument. Is that Andrew Bynum, the kid who was supposedly rehabilitating an injury and was photographed at the Playboy Mansion with a bunny on his shoulders? While his teammates are trying to lock up home court throughout the playoffs? Some might suggest that a year or two in college would have helped him blow off that steam and mature a bit before turning pro.

Bynum is on one of the best teams in the NBA and has no demerits to speak of. He has already proven that he works extremely hard. If you think attending one party interfered with his work-outs then you have no idea... Looks like all that time Barkley spent in college allowed him to blow off all of his steam (roll eyes...).


The biggest flops tend not to attend college - Kwame, Darko.

Actually Darko doesn't count b/c basketball was already his profession. Kwame is STILL an active NBA player. Now had you said Leon Smith you might be going somewhere. But if you want to talk college busts the list goes on and on and on... The name Sam Bowie comes to mind (and Greg Oden isn't far behind...).


As for Iverson, I am sorry to criticize a friend of yours, but you cannot deny that he is a tool when it comes to team dynamics. His teams IMPROVE when he leaves, and he caused a fuss about coming off the bench for the Pistons when it was proven that the Pistons were WORSE with AI as a starter. In my mind that is inexcusable. All the social and family stuff about the domestic disputes with his wife and his rap songs about shooting police could have been blown out of proportion. I obviously don't like AI's image, but I don't know him personally. For all I know, his image is a facade has constructed to enhance his endorsements.

I would suggest however, that AI would have done well to have stayed at Georgetown for a few more years. He would have been a better person for the education and would not have made as many missteps

Teams get better for any number of reasons and considering Iverson has never left in a vacuum, teams usually get something out of the deal. He has made a young person's mistakes. The same kinds that college graduates do everyday. A college education doesn't keep you sane when your wife threatens you. A college education may broaden your knowledge base but it most definitely doesn't tell you what to rap about. Iverson has become a multi-media superstar, he left college when the time was right for HIM. By the way, he's also been to a NBA finals - and he got along with that team pretty well.

Matches
04-10-2009, 02:18 PM
They don't destroy the argument, they are examples of young men who were successful without college. They would likely have been even better people if they had gone to college.

Then it's a somewhat circular proposition - it assumes its own correctness. As you note, we have no idea how, or if, Kobe might have turned out differently if he'd gone to college. You say he might have matured - but it's also possible he'd have goofed off and not improved the way he did in the league. Many - many - kids don't react well to college. For some it's part of the maturation process - for some not so much.

All we can really say at the end of the day is that some kids turned out really well despite not having gone to college, and some kids who didn't go to college turned out badly. Anything beyond that is speculation.

weezie
04-10-2009, 02:21 PM
I've actually been to the Portsmouth Invitational and it's a great couple of days to see some of these players up close, especially when they are from distant conferences. Very cool little set-up. DeMarc had a good showing last year. You get a chance to chat with scouts since they sit amongst the common folks like moi. And the scouts have the utmost respect for Duke players, contrary to whatever any dopey fans/sports writers might sling about.

If Jack McC is injured, that's a shame, maybe he did something during that silly 3pt contest in Detroit last weekend that aggravated an injury. He looked fine when he was dancing after winning the trophy. He would have been better served by going to Portsmouth.

And as far as AI is concerned, I was sorely disappointed when he didn't jell in Detroit. Not many NBA stars played harder than Iverson in his prime; he was a phenom, granted. But the operative is "was" and I'm sorry he missed the golden ring, strictly on the basis of his abilities. Personality-wise, I couldn't venture any guesses since behind the scenes, AI is supposedly a huge philanthropic presence in Philly and Newport News. The Pistons were a tight team and the departure of Chauncey Billups likely had much more to do with the team's slide than AI's peccadilloes.

SupaDave
04-10-2009, 02:42 PM
I've actually been to the Portsmouth Invitational and it's a great couple of days to see some of these players up close, especially when they are from distant conferences. Very cool little set-up. DeMarc had a good showing last year. You get a chance to chat with scouts since they sit amongst the common folks like moi. And the scouts have the utmost respect for Duke players, contrary to whatever any dopey fans/sports writers might sling about.

If Jack McC is injured, that's a shame, maybe he did something during that silly 3pt contest in Detroit last weekend that aggravated an injury. He looked fine when he was dancing after winning the trophy. He would have been better served by going to Portsmouth.

And as far as AI is concerned, I was sorely disappointed when he didn't jell in Detroit. Not many NBA stars played harder than Iverson in his prime; he was a phenom, granted. But the operative is "was" and I'm sorry he missed the golden ring, strictly on the basis of his abilities. Personality-wise, I couldn't venture any guesses since behind the scenes, AI is supposedly a huge philanthropic presence in Philly and Newport News. The Pistons were a tight team and the departure of Chauncey Billups likely had much more to do with the team's slide than AI's peccadilloes.

Peccadilloes?! LOL! I had to look that up! WOTD!

SupaDave
04-10-2009, 02:43 PM
McClinton is just too big a talent not to end up on someone's roster. I think the family is doing the right thing.

weezie
04-10-2009, 03:29 PM
Peccadilloes?! LOL! I had to look that up! WOTD!

I guess a person is never too old to learn something new! ;)

ncexnyc
04-11-2009, 10:50 AM
[QUOTE=BD80;285354]

Actually Darko doesn't count b/c basketball was already his profession. Kwame is STILL an active NBA player. Now had you said Leon Smith you might be going somewhere. But if you want to talk college busts the list goes on and on and on... The name Sam Bowie comes to mind (and Greg Oden isn't far behind...).


You're stooping pretty low by listing Sam Bowie as a college bust in an attempt to prove your point. I've never read anything negative about him. I believe most people would agree that his body failed him, but then maybe you wouldn't agree and if that's the case you might want to add Bobby Hurley and Jason Williams to your list of college busts.

SupaDave
04-13-2009, 01:12 PM
[QUOTE=SupaDave;285363]

You're stooping pretty low by listing Sam Bowie as a college bust in an attempt to prove your point. I've never read anything negative about him. I believe most people would agree that his body failed him, but then maybe you wouldn't agree and if that's the case you might want to add Bobby Hurley and Jason Williams to your list of college busts.

Body failure and tragic accidents are quite different. Bowie is not a low attempt. By all accounts, he was drafted based on his college output. He got to the pros and did nada. People actually got to see Hurley and Williams compete at a high level and there didn't seem to be much doubt about their abilities. Both showed they actually had the skills to return AFTER their debilitating injuries.

Kwame Brown's status was based totally on potential. Technically he may not have lived up to his draft status but through all the bumps in his career he's managed to stay in the league with some pretty decent franchises.

Ed O'Bannon anyone?

ncexnyc
04-13-2009, 02:14 PM
Just for the record, Sam Bowie made the All Rookie team his first year in the NBA. It wasn't his fault that he was drafted ahead of the players who are or will be Hall Of Famers. Over his career, Bowie averaged 10.9 points, 7.5 rebounds and 1.78 blocks per game. He hit 30.2% of his three-point shots. Feel free to post Hurley's and Williams' career stats. I've already looked at them and I fail to see what's so impressive about either and I also don't see how anyone can seriously say they rebounded well from their injuries, if that was the case they would have lasted alot longer.

SupaDave
04-13-2009, 02:37 PM
Just for the record, Sam Bowie made the All Rookie team his first year in the NBA. It wasn't his fault that he was drafted ahead of the players who are or will be Hall Of Famers. Over his career, Bowie averaged 10.9 points, 7.5 rebounds and 1.78 blocks per game. He hit 30.2% of his three-point shots. Feel free to post Hurley's and Williams' career stats. I've already looked at them and I fail to see what's so impressive about either and I also don't see how anyone can seriously say they rebounded well from their injuries, if that was the case they would have lasted alot longer.

For starters, J-Dub also made the all-rookie team. Hurley returned from a life altering accident and played nearly 5 more years - not to mention a 17 assist performance against the Lakers in 1995. I honestly can't think of any others in the NBA that returned from such great odds outside of Grant and Alonzo.

And hey - it's not just me guy...


Sports Illustrated called Bowie the biggest NBA draft bust in a 2005 list, arguing that teams should not draft according to current need but to a player's potential.[7]

SupaDave
04-13-2009, 02:39 PM
For the record, count me in the crowd that seriously doubts McClinton will be a bust. He reminds me of a lot of old school players who just get it done.

ncexnyc
04-13-2009, 07:59 PM
For starters, J-Dub also made the all-rookie team. Hurley returned from a life altering accident and played nearly 5 more years - not to mention a 17 assist performance against the Lakers in 1995. I honestly can't think of any others in the NBA that returned from such great odds outside of Grant and Alonzo.

And hey - it's not just me guy...

Yeah, I've seen the SI comment about Sam, but again I submit alot of that has to do with the players taken after him. His numbers really look bad when you look at players like Akeem, MJ, Stockton, etc.

So Hurley hung on for 5 more years, not much difference between him and Sam. The fact of the matter is all 3 players we are talking about didn't have a major impact on the NBA.

If you feel otherwise then so be it.

SupaDave
04-13-2009, 08:30 PM
Yeah, I've seen the SI comment about Sam, but again I submit alot of that has to do with the players taken after him. His numbers really look bad when you look at players like Akeem, MJ, Stockton, etc.

So Hurley hung on for 5 more years, not much difference between him and Sam. The fact of the matter is all 3 players we are talking about didn't have a major impact on the NBA.

If you feel otherwise then so be it.

I think the absence of NBA players having motorcycle accidents is impact enough.

BD80
04-14-2009, 02:27 PM
As much as I like your sentiment (but strongly disagree that Iverson is a "tool" b/c he's actually a friend of mine), ...

Tool time rerun:

http://apps.detnews.com/apps/blogs/pistonsblog/index.php?blogid=1886

As the article states, it is pretty darned difficult to get banned by a casino while you still have money. I wonder if he ran into Ty Lawson before he was banned?