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SupaDave
04-07-2009, 12:02 PM
I just want to bring some history to the forefront here for those that seem to think the program has the market cornered on winning.

Duke basketball struggled under Bill Foster and in his tenure actually had a losing record in the ACC. He did however do some great things at Duke that wouldn't be appreciated by many on this board right now.

"I knew Duke from the Bubas years when they were great, and I thought they could be great again, should be great again. I was a little shocked when they offered me the job, it just seemed like a great place to coach." Foster once said.

Foster was responsible for giving us Gene Banks, Jim Spanarkel, Mike Gminiski and even flirted with NCCU taking transfers Kenny Dennard and John Harrell. He even took Bob Bender from Indiana.

While Foster is overlooked in the wake of the achievements of Duke coaches Mike Krzyzewski and Vic Bubas, the Foster era returned Duke to national prominence and paved the way for Krzyzewski's success.

Supa "we've got to remember how we got here" Dave

Devil in the Blue Dress
04-07-2009, 12:23 PM
I just want to bring some history to the forefront here for those that seem to think the program has the market cornered on winning.

Duke basketball struggled under Bill Foster and in his tenure actually had a losing record in the ACC. He did however do some great things at Duke that wouldn't be appreciated by many on this board right now.

"I knew Duke from the Bubas years when they were great, and I thought they could be great again, should be great again. I was a little shocked when they offered me the job, it just seemed like a great place to coach." Foster once said.

Foster was responsible for giving us Gene Banks, Jim Spanarkel, Mike Gminiski and even flirted with NCCU taking transfers Kenny Dennard and John Harrell. He even took Bob Bender from Indiana.

While Foster is overlooked in the wake of the achievements of Duke coaches Mike Krzyzewski and Vic Bubas, the Foster era returned Duke to national prominence and paved the way for Krzyzewski's success.

Supa "we've got to remember how we got here" Dave

I remember within a few short years of graduating, I found myself wondering what had happened at Duke. It had gone from the exciting presence in the NCAAs under Vic Bubas to seeming to go nowhere in a few short years. The downhill slide in football was underway, too. I could remember when both were nationally ranked, sometimes even during the same year.

Bill Foster built up the program and brought in some players and assistant coaches who began to return Duke to its former glory. When Bill Foster left, I wondered what are we going to do NOW? When Coach K was hired, it wasn't clear that we were out of the woods. In fact, it appeared that Jim Valvano who was hired at State might have been a better choice for Duke. I heard about Iron Dukes beseeching Tom Butters to send this young coach on his way and get us a successful one to replace him. (Dean Smith received similarly poor treatment early in his career as a head coach.)

So here we are today.... no national championship.... only a Sweet 16 appearance and a conference championship. The basketball program is a changing entity, continuing to evolve. Should we be disappointed? Absolutely not! What about next season? I can't wait!

roywhite
04-07-2009, 12:27 PM
I just want to bring some history to the forefront here for those that seem to think the program has the market cornered on winning.

Duke basketball struggled under Bill Foster and in his tenure actually had a losing record in the ACC. He did however do some great things at Duke that wouldn't be appreciated by many on this board right now.

"I knew Duke from the Bubas years when they were great, and I thought they could be great again, should be great again. I was a little shocked when they offered me the job, it just seemed like a great place to coach." Foster once said.

Foster was responsible for giving us Gene Banks, Jim Spanarkel, Mike Gminiski and even flirted with NCCU taking transfers Kenny Dennard and John Harrell. He even took Bob Bender from Indiana.
While Foster is overlooked in the wake of the achievements of Duke coaches Mike Krzyzewski and Vic Bubas, the Foster era returned Duke to national prominence and paved the way for Krzyzewski's success.

Supa "we've got to remember how we got here" Dave


Good points and I like your look back.

Kenny Dennard, however, was not a transfer. From King, NC (just up the road from Winston-Salem), he was recruited along with Gene Banks in the class of 1981 and was a 4-year Dukie.

SupaDave
04-07-2009, 02:39 PM
Good points and I like your look back.

Kenny Dennard, however, was not a transfer. From King, NC (just up the road from Winston-Salem), he was recruited along with Gene Banks in the class of 1981 and was a 4-year Dukie.

Glad you said that b/c it made me find this excellent article on Kenny from the DBR!

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=10070

johnb
04-07-2009, 02:58 PM
The point is not a new one, but Foster was specifically important in bringing in Duke's first African-American high school All American. Not only that, but Gene Banks was an inner city guy who was also charismatic and popular amongst his fans and classmates. It's not clear whether that directly led to some of the Coach K recruits, since broadening our recruiting was inevitable, but, from my point of view, Gene made it easier for us to get guys like Johnny Dawkins, who came along just after Banks graduated.

77devil
04-07-2009, 04:27 PM
Foster's last major recruit was Vince Taylor. While he didn't have a stellar Duke career, snaring him away from Kentucky was considered a major recruiting coup at the time.

It should be remembered how bad the state of the program was when Foster took over after the bottom that was the 1973-1974 season. Four years later Duke was in the NC game.

Foster had difficulty sustaining the recruiting after Banks and Dennard and left the cuboard pretty bare for Coach K. There were some health issues that did not fully come out until later. Nevertheless, we owe him a debt of gratitude for restoring the program so quickly.

jv001
04-07-2009, 04:37 PM
Glad you said that b/c it made me find this excellent article on Kenny from the DBR!

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=10070

For the article on Kenny. He is one of a kind. Played at South Stokes High School. He also had a brother that played there who I believe was actually taller than Kenny, but not as good. With Kenny and Gene at the forward postions and the G-Man at center we had a great front line. Go Duke!

Indoor66
04-07-2009, 04:46 PM
For the article on Kenny. He is one of a kind. Played at South Stokes High School. He also had a brother that played there who I believe was actually taller than Kenny, but not as good. With Kenny and Gene at the forward postions and the G-Man at center we had a great front line. Go Duke!

and it was 6'7", 6'11", 6'8".

Regenman
04-07-2009, 04:57 PM
Let's add some additional context.

Coach K makes over a million dollars a year to coach Duke. That's a lot more than most (if not all the faculty) at Duke . As part of that salary, the alums should demand excellence. I'm pretty sure that's part of our "free market" system (performance should equate to your compensation).

As part of that performance, you're also judged by recruiting and the talent base. When you land (allegedly) some of the best classes in the country, you're expected to perform with them (and I have to give Coach Izzo some props for his consistency this decade).

I'm sorry if you disagree but we all bring a different take on the situation. Cutliffe makes less and has lesser expectations. That's consistent. You make the money, you're expected to perform. Coach K is the professional in this instance not the kids. Coach K has already been compensated for his amazing run at Duke. His salary is not backward looking compensation but an expectation of present performance (or are you suggesting that there should be a different metric?).

TriGuy
04-07-2009, 05:49 PM
Foster had difficulty sustaining the recruiting after Banks and Dennard and left the cuboard pretty bare for Coach K. There were some health issues that did not fully come out until later. Nevertheless, we owe him a debt of gratitude for restoring the program so quickly.

Foster's career showed he could build a team, but he never could quite develop a program. He had great success in the short run at various schools, but never stuck around for the long run because of that particular talent.

He went to the NC game in '78 with a team of 2 frosh, 2 sophs, and a junior, and then ran into a wall recruiting after that. What could he tell a 5-star recruit . . . that he'd play behind Banks or Dennard for 3 years?

No, Foster ended up recruiting a bench to play behind his young team. When the stars graduated (and Foster left), K was left with just that . . . a bench. A petty good bench, sure -- Tommy and Chip were fun to watch -- but they were never brought here to start.

We still owe a huge debt of gratitude to Foster. He stopped the train-wreck that was the post-Bubas era and showed that Duke was a place that could win again. Without that sort of transition, we may have wallowed in mediocrity for an additional decade or more.

slower
04-07-2009, 06:27 PM
Let's add some additional context.

Coach K makes over a million dollars a year to coach Duke. That's a lot more than most (if not all the faculty) at Duke . As part of that salary, the alums should demand excellence. I'm pretty sure that's part of our "free market" system (performance should equate to your compensation).

As part of that performance, you're also judged by recruiting and the talent base. When you land (allegedly) some of the best classes in the country, you're expected to perform with them (and I have to give Coach Izzo some props for his consistency this decade).

I'm sorry if you disagree but we all bring a different take on the situation. Cutliffe makes less and has lesser expectations. That's consistent. You make the money, you're expected to perform. Coach K is the professional in this instance not the kids. Coach K has already been compensated for his amazing run at Duke. His salary is not backward looking compensation but an expectation of present performance (or are you suggesting that there should be a different metric?).

and you may not get much support out there, friend. If you're somehow suggesting that K is not earning his salary (in relation to other top coaches), I believe you are about to experience a beatdown of sorts.

4decadedukie
04-08-2009, 11:54 AM
I disagree with the thrust of your post; however, I will opt not to rebut it, with one exception. Allow me to highlight the fact that Coach K -- and the Men’s Basketball program -- have long served as both a top-quality conduit for our University and as a major unifying factor for diverse Duke constituencies. It is my opinion that these important contributions have been crucial catalysts in Duke's rapid -- really unprecedented -- ascendency in many arenas (principally academic). Undergraduate and professional programs at Duke now consistently rank in the nation's top-tier, which was not universally true forty years ago, and the resources, national-focus and stature provided through Men’s Basketball (both directly and indirectly) are a substantial reason why.

SupaDave
12-29-2011, 11:58 AM
I thought I'd bump this thread as the ACC season approaches...

davekay1971
12-29-2011, 12:12 PM
I just hope K earns his freakin' $$$ this year. I'm sick and tired of the University paying the guy so much for ancient history. What was our last natty...2010? And before that you have to go ALL the way back to 2001 for a natty. Ridiculous. For top money I want a top coach. Is that too much to ask?

Now that I'm done having fun with a 2 and 1/2 year old post, on to the point of the thread...

I was born in 1971, and the NCAA runner up team was my first really solid Duke basketball memory. That made Gene Banks my first Duke superstar, Jim Spanarkel my first Duke point guard, and G-man my first Duke center, and it made me a Duke fan. That was a fantastic run with a great team. Despite the cupboard being fairly bare for K's start at Duke, the Foster years were crucial in maintaining some degree of success at Duke. Had the Duke program completely floundered from the end of the Bubas era until K arrived in 1980, it may have been much more difficult for K to take the Duke name successfully into the recruiting arena. Foster's teams, particularly the NCAA runner up team, kept Duke viable as a competitive NCAA program, and made sure the Duke name was not a liability for K to overcome on the recruiting trail.

jv001
12-29-2011, 01:10 PM
I just hope K earns his freakin' $$$ this year. I'm sick and tired of the University paying the guy so much for ancient history. What was our last natty...2010? And before that you have to go ALL the way back to 2001 for a natty. Ridiculous. For top money I want a top coach. Is that too much to ask?

Now that I'm done having fun with a 2 and 1/2 year old post, on to the point of the thread...

I was born in 1971, and the NCAA runner up team was my first really solid Duke basketball memory. That made Gene Banks my first Duke superstar, Jim Spanarkel my first Duke point guard, and G-man my first Duke center, and it made me a Duke fan. That was a fantastic run with a great team. Despite the cupboard being fairly bare for K's start at Duke, the Foster years were crucial in maintaining some degree of success at Duke. Had the Duke program completely floundered from the end of the Bubas era until K arrived in 1980, it may have been much more difficult for K to take the Duke name successfully into the recruiting arena. Foster's teams, particularly the NCAA runner up team, kept Duke viable as a competitive NCAA program, and made sure the Duke name was not a liability for K to overcome on the recruiting trail.

This group of guys were fun to watch. Lots of characters that happened to be very good basketball players as well. But Jim Spanarkel was not the point guard on either 77-78 team or the 78-79 team. The point guards were John Harrell and Bob Bender. Spanarkel was indeed the play maker. In 77-78 Harrell avged 1.6assist and Bender avgd 3.7 assists. Spanarkel's avg was 3.7. Both Harrell and Bender played 24 to 26 mins pg that year. The next year Bender was the main pg27minspg and Harrell 13 mins pg. Bender's assists(3.3) was about the same as in 77-78. Spanarkel's ppg dropped from 20.8 to 16ppg but his assists were the same(3.7). Even G-Man's ppg dropped from 20ppg to 19ppg. G-Man avgd a double double in 77-78(20-10) but fell short the next year with 9.2rebspg. The arrival of Vince Taylor could have made a difference in the small drop off in scoring by all the starters but Bender. Bob went from 5.1ppg to 6.8ppg. During those years Duke played scrimmages in some local high schools and I saw most to those games. Banks and Dennard were the most accessible players during those two years and easy to talk to and for that reason they remain two of my favorites. GoDuke!

arnie
12-29-2011, 04:59 PM
Foster's career showed he could build a team, but he never could quite develop a program. He had great success in the short run at various schools, but never stuck around for the long run because of that particular talent.

He went to the NC game in '78 with a team of 2 frosh, 2 sophs, and a junior, and then ran into a wall recruiting after that. What could he tell a 5-star recruit . . . that he'd play behind Banks or Dennard for 3 years?

No, Foster ended up recruiting a bench to play behind his young team. When the stars graduated (and Foster left), K was left with just that . . . a bench. A petty good bench, sure -- Tommy and Chip were fun to watch -- but they were never brought here to start.

We still owe a huge debt of gratitude to Foster. He stopped the train-wreck that was the post-Bubas era and showed that Duke was a place that could win again. Without that sort of transition, we may have wallowed in mediocrity for an additional decade or more.

Foster is a hero in my book because my first four years as a Duke fan were the Bucky train wreck. Remember that Bucky took a great recruiting class that Bubas brought in, coupled with several strong upperclassmen and took the program down. I watched player after player leave until; except for Gary Melchionni, we really didn't have much left to compete with in the ACC. Foster slowly built the team and 1978 was truly a magic moment for a Duke fan that had little to cheer for previously. Without him, coach K or whomever at a later date came on board probably could not have recruited the Dawkins class.

I've also wondered why Bucky gets such a huge pass for taking the program to such depths. Guess his ability to raise money has something to do with it.

chrishoke
12-29-2011, 05:26 PM
That Foster front line of Banks, Dennard and Gminski was known as the Duke Power Copmpany.

hq2
12-29-2011, 07:26 PM
Foster is a hero in my book because my first four years as a Duke fan were the Bucky train wreck. Remember that Bucky took a great recruiting class that Bubas brought in, coupled with several strong upperclassmen and took the program down. I watched player after player leave until; except for Gary Melchionni, we really didn't have much left to compete with in the ACC. Foster slowly built the team and 1978 was truly a magic moment for a Duke fan that had little to cheer for previously. Without him, coach K or whomever at a later date came on board probably could not have recruited the Dawkins class.

I've also wondered why Bucky gets such a huge pass for taking the program to such depths. Guess his ability to raise money has something to do with it.

All pretty much true. Foster was great at building a program, but he couldn't quite figure out what to do once he got there. He didn't know how to deal with
being the favorite, so he tended to coach too conservatively once Duke got on top. As a result, the team lost the aggressiveness it had shown during the '78 miracle run. When he left in 1980, it was clear that he had done as well as he could at Duke and was ready to move on.

As for Bucky getting a pass, you had to have been in Duke and in Durham in '69 when he took over. He was dealt historically a very bad hand. His approach simply didn't work in that era. We've discussed this in depth on another thread.

77devil
12-30-2011, 08:24 AM
As for Bucky getting a pass, you had to have been in Duke and in Durham in '69 when he took over. He was dealt historically a very bad hand. His approach simply didn't work in that era. We've discussed this in depth on another thread.

I don't wish to hijack the thread in a debate about Bucky, but the statement that he was dealt a bad hand is simply inaccurate. He inherited plenty of varsity talent, a lot more than was left for K, and the undefeated 1969-1970 freshman class was far and away the best in the ACC. Bucky was dealt a fine hand; he was unable to play it well for all the reasons that have been discussed before.

arnie
12-30-2011, 08:25 AM
All pretty much true. Foster was great at building a program, but he couldn't quite figure out what to do once he got there. He didn't know how to deal with
being the favorite, so he tended to coach too conservatively once Duke got on top. As a result, the team lost the aggressiveness it had shown during the '78 miracle run. When he left in 1980, it was clear that he had done as well as he could at Duke and was ready to move on.

As for Bucky getting a pass, you had to have been in Duke and in Durham in '69 when he took over. He was dealt historically a very bad hand. His approach simply didn't work in that era. We've discussed this in depth on another thread.

I actually was around at that time - guess the big difference between K and Bucky is the ability to change your approach to fit the players and circumstances.

hq2
12-30-2011, 09:23 AM
It helped K to start coaching in 1980 rather than 1969. Those were two completely different eras.

Devil in the Blue Dress
12-30-2011, 09:44 AM
It helped K to start coaching in 1980 rather than 1969. Those were two completely different eras.
Good observation..... the social unrest of the sixties derailed and changed many aspects of life that we take for granted, not the least of which is how people relate to each other in many situations.

Duvall
12-30-2011, 10:42 AM
Good observation..... the social unrest of the sixties derailed and changed many aspects of life that we take for granted, not the least of which is how people relate to each other in many situations.

Wait, what?

Devil in the Blue Dress
12-30-2011, 10:48 AM
Wait, what?
Consider civil rights issues, role of women, women in the workplace, Medicare........

Bob Green
12-30-2011, 11:20 AM
I don't wish to hijack the thread in a debate about Bucky, but the statement that he was dealt a bad hand is simply inaccurate. He inherited plenty of varsity talent...


I actually was around at that time - guess the big difference between K and Bucky is the ability to change your approach to fit the players and circumstances.

I agree with the statements above. Randy Denton, Dick DeVenzio and Rick Katherman were all juniors in Bucky Waters first season (69-70) as head coach. That is a lot of talent. Bucky Waters was 17-9 and 20-10 in his first two years with NIT appearances (back when the NIT meant something). However, years three and four saw a decline with records of 14-12 and 12-14 preceding the disastrous 1974 when Neill McGeachy went 10-16 in his one season at the helm. Bill Foster arrived for the 74-75 season but it took him a while to turn things around. Duke went 13-13, 13-14 and 14-13 in his first three years before the magic of 77-78 (I was in the Navy and had left North Carolina by this time) and the 27-7 year.

The lesson for me is to never take winning for granted. Whenever Duke suffers a butt whupping, I remember back to the mid-70s and quickly realize things are very good.

77devil
12-30-2011, 11:34 AM
It helped K to start coaching in 1980 rather than 1969. Those were two completely different eras.



Good observation..... the social unrest of the sixties derailed and changed many aspects of life that we take for granted, not the least of which is how people relate to each other in many situations.

I really don't see a point here. Three of the greatest coaches of all time, Bob Knight, Dean Smith, and John Wooden, as well as many others, were highly successful during these turbulent times. Admittedly, Knight was at Army in the 60's, where the counter culture was not an issue, but he was building the great Indiana teams of the mid 70's while Duke was headed in a different direction.

It wasn't the times, it was the coach. I'm confident Coach K would be successful in any era.

Olympic Fan
12-30-2011, 12:01 PM
Just a couple pf point:

-- Bucky inherited a load of talent, including five juniors from the most celebrated recruiting cass in Duke history. That included point guard Dick DeVenzio, regarded as the top PG recruit in the nation (Bubas beat Wooden, Smith and Driesell for him), Brad Evans, who was the Ron Curry of his day (Bear Bryant begged him to come play QB at Alabama) and Randy Denton, probably the most underrated superstar in Duke history (19.7 pg., 12.7 rpg. for his career). Bucky added a five-man recruiting class that became the first undefeated freshman team in Duke history. They were all his recruits, picked up in a transition year. It included some wonderful players -- PG Gary Melchionni, C Alan Shaw, WG Jeff Dawson, SF Richie O'Connor and WG Jim Fitzsimmons.

Bucky's problem was dealing with the kids of that era. They were different and he didn't connect with them. His program was ruined by the wave of player transfers -- Dawson, Fitzsimmons and O'Conner from his first class ... C Dave Elmer, F Ron Righter, S Sam May later ... The program slipped slowly downward -- from 20-10 (9-5 ACC) his second year to 14-12 (6-6), 12-14 (4-8) ... Bucky quit in he fall of '73 and interim coach Niel McGeachy presided over the 10-16 (3-10) year that followed.

-- Bill Foster arrived in the spring of 1974 and inherited much less talent than what Vic left Bucky. Foster took a little tiime to get traction -- he went 13-13 (2-10), 13-14 (3-9) in his first two seasons. If you remember, he installed an exciting running game -- as a recruiting ploy. Duke scored 100 pints four times in '75, including a 109-122 loss to Wake Forest.They also lost 95-05 to LSU.

His third season (1976-1977) started off differently. With senior Tate Armstrong as a high-scoring point, sophomore Jim Spanarkel on the wing and freshman center Mike Gminski in the middle, Duke lot its opener to Wake Fost (in the old Big 4 Tournament), but upset No, 15 NC State in the consolation game proceded to win 10 in a row, including a Pearl Harbor Day upset of No. 15 Tennessee (with Bernard King and Ernie Grunfeld) in Knoxville. But on Jan. 17, Duke won an overtime game at Virginia to go 11-3 ... in the game, leading scorer Tate Armstrong (a player Bucky recruited but Foster developed) broke his wrist and as lost for the year. Loisng Armstrong was devastating. Duke simply couldn't replace his ballhandling. With Steve Gray forced to play the point, Duke lost a series of heartbreaking games -- blowing late leads in losses to NC Sate nd Maryland, especially.

The Maryland loss on Feb. 5 was especially painful. Duke was up five with just seconds remaining (and, remember, no three-point shot). Maryland scored with something like eight seconds left to cut it to three. Duke inbounded to Gray. who tried to throw a crosscourt pass that hit the rim. Maryland's James Tillman (I think) came up with the ball and laid it in -- as Gray stupidly fouled him. Tillman added the FT and Maryland won in OT.

Foster, one of the most high-strung guys I've ever been around, said he was near suicide after that game. But later that night, everything changed -- he got a call from Gene Banks, who told Foster that he was coming to Duke. Folks, you can't understand what that meant at the time. Banks was not just a big recruit ... he was a superstar, a legend in Philadelphia. Recruiting writers argued whether Banks, New York's Albert King (Bernard's little brother) or this Magic Johnson guy out Michigan was the nation's best recruit. Getting "Tinkerbell" would be like ... maybe if Harrison Barnes had held his pres conference and announced that he was going to NC State. Nobody could believe that Banks picked Duke.

Digger Phelps refused to accept it and continued to recruit Banks hard until he signed. The scumbag.

The arrival of Banks and unheraded Kenny Dennard the next fall changed everything. Duke was all of a sudden good. We thought they would be great when Indiana transfer Bob Bender became eligible at midseason. But before that happened, John Harrell, a Durham Hillside kid who transferred from NCCU, stepped into the breech and got the Devils going. Bender came off the bench (and, yes, he did have a better assist/TO ratio).

That team went on a magical ride -- all the way to the NCAA title game. Keep in mind, that while Foster's career numbers aren't great, his last three seasons at Duke were 27-7 (8-4 ACC) with an ACC championship; 22-8 (9-3) with an ACC regular season championship; and 24-9 (7-7 ACC) with an ACC championship. He was 6-3 in NCAA play with one Final Four and one Elite Eight. His last team beat Kentucky in Rupp Arena in the Sweet 16 before losing to Joe Barry Carroll and Purdue in the regional finals.

By that time, Foster was already headed out the door. As noted before, he was more confortable building a program rather than sustaining success. The key to Bill was his recruiting strategy -- like Bobby Cremins later, he preferred to focus on one great recruit a year. At Duke, he had a great run with Spanarkel, Gminski, Banks and Vince Taylor, but after getting Taylor in the spring of '78, he began to misfire. He also made a terrible mistake in the fall of 1978, handing Bender the starting PG job in preseason and demoting Harrell to the second team (a move that turned Harrell into a malcontent). I think Harrell could have handled it if he had lost the job in practice, but after starting on the title team the year before, losing the job in the offseason killed his spirit.

When Krzyzewski arrived, he had Banks as a senior (plus Dennard, who was good, but not great), Taylor as a junior and a bunch of second line players -- guys like Chip Engellend, Tom Emma, Mike Tissaw -- decent supporting players, but not good enough to carry the team. Getting nobody in the transition year and just Greg Wendt in his first real recruiting year left a real talent void that K had to overcome. It really was ironic that Duke lost Bender just before the ACC title game with appendicitis. Harrell, out of shake and disgruntled, made a poor replacement. Th Black Sunday loss to St. John's came with Bender and Dennard out (Dennard out with an ankle in sprained in a late night -- drunken? -- pickup game) and with Gminski battling food poisoning).

I think we should appreciate Foster for what he did -- he gave up one great team, a good three-year run ... and one of the most magical single-seasons in Duke history (1977-78).

arnie
12-30-2011, 12:38 PM
Just a couple pf point:

-- Bucky inherited a load of talent, including five juniors from the most celebrated recruiting cass in Duke history. That included point guard Dick DeVenzio, regarded as the top PG recruit in the nation (Bubas beat Wooden, Smith and Driesell for him), Brad Evans, who was the Ron Curry of his day (Bear Bryant begged him to come play QB at Alabama) and Randy Denton, probably the most underrated superstar in Duke history (19.7 pg., 12.7 rpg. for his career). Bucky added a five-man recruiting class that became the first undefeated freshman team in Duke history. They were all his recruits, picked up in a transition year. It included some wonderful players -- PG Gary Melchionni, C Alan Shaw, WG Jeff Dawson, SF Richie O'Connor and WG Jim Fitzsimmons.

Bucky's problem was dealing with the kids of that era. They were different and he didn't connect with them. His program was ruined by the wave of player transfers -- Dawson, Fitzsimmons and O'Conner from his first class ... C Dave Elmer, F Ron Righter, S Sam May later ... The program slipped slowly downward -- from 20-10 (9-5 ACC) his second year to 14-12 (6-6), 12-14 (4-8) ... Bucky quit in he fall of '73 and interim coach Niel McGeachy presided over the 10-16 (3-10) year that followed.

-- Bill Foster arrived in the spring of 1974 and inherited much less talent than what Vic left Bucky. Foster took a little tiime to get traction -- he went 13-13 (2-10), 13-14 (3-9) in his first two seasons. If you remember, he installed an exciting running game -- as a recruiting ploy. Duke scored 100 pints four times in '75, including a 109-122 loss to Wake Forest.They also lost 95-05 to LSU.

His third season (1976-1977) started off differently. With senior Tate Armstrong as a high-scoring point, sophomore Jim Spanarkel on the wing and freshman center Mike Gminski in the middle, Duke lot its opener to Wake Fost (in the old Big 4 Tournament), but upset No, 15 NC State in the consolation game proceded to win 10 in a row, including a Pearl Harbor Day upset of No. 15 Tennessee (with Bernard King and Ernie Grunfeld) in Knoxville. But on Jan. 17, Duke won an overtime game at Virginia to go 11-3 ... in the game, leading scorer Tate Armstrong (a player Bucky recruited but Foster developed) broke his wrist and as lost for the year. Loisng Armstrong was devastating. Duke simply couldn't replace his ballhandling. With Steve Gray forced to play the point, Duke lost a series of heartbreaking games -- blowing late leads in losses to NC Sate nd Maryland, especially.

The Maryland loss on Feb. 5 was especially painful. Duke was up five with just seconds remaining (and, remember, no three-point shot). Maryland scored with something like eight seconds left to cut it to three. Duke inbounded to Gray. who tried to throw a crosscourt pass that hit the rim. Maryland's James Tillman (I think) came up with the ball and laid it in -- as Gray stupidly fouled him. Tillman added the FT and Maryland won in OT.

Foster, one of the most high-strung guys I've ever been around, said he was near suicide after that game. But later that night, everything changed -- he got a call from Gene Banks, who told Foster that he was coming to Duke. Folks, you can't understand what that meant at the time. Banks was not just a big recruit ... he was a superstar, a legend in Philadelphia. Recruiting writers argued whether Banks, New York's Albert King (Bernard's little brother) or this Magic Johnson guy out Michigan was the nation's best recruit. Getting "Tinkerbell" would be like ... maybe if Harrison Barnes had held his pres conference and announced that he was going to NC State. Nobody could believe that Banks picked Duke.

Digger Phelps refused to accept it and continued to recruit Banks hard until he signed. The scumbag.

The arrival of Banks and unheraded Kenny Dennard the next fall changed everything. Duke was all of a sudden good. We thought they would be great when Indiana transfer Bob Bender became eligible at midseason. But before that happened, John Harrell, a Durham Hillside kid who transferred from NCCU, stepped into the breech and got the Devils going. Bender came off the bench (and, yes, he did have a better assist/TO ratio).

That team went on a magical ride -- all the way to the NCAA title game. Keep in mind, that while Foster's career numbers aren't great, his last three seasons at Duke were 27-7 (8-4 ACC) with an ACC championship; 22-8 (9-3) with an ACC regular season championship; and 24-9 (7-7 ACC) with an ACC championship. He was 6-3 in NCAA play with one Final Four and one Elite Eight. His last team beat Kentucky in Rupp Arena in the Sweet 16 before losing to Joe Barry Carroll and Purdue in the regional finals.

By that time, Foster was already headed out the door. As noted before, he was more confortable building a program rather than sustaining success. The key to Bill was his recruiting strategy -- like Bobby Cremins later, he preferred to focus on one great recruit a year. At Duke, he had a great run with Spanarkel, Gminski, Banks and Vince Taylor, but after getting Taylor in the spring of '78, he began to misfire. He also made a terrible mistake in the fall of 1978, handing Bender the starting PG job in preseason and demoting Harrell to the second team (a move that turned Harrell into a malcontent). I think Harrell could have handled it if he had lost the job in practice, but after starting on the title team the year before, losing the job in the offseason killed his spirit.

When Krzyzewski arrived, he had Banks as a senior (plus Dennard, who was good, but not great), Taylor as a junior and a bunch of second line players -- guys like Chip Engellend, Tom Emma, Mike Tissaw -- decent supporting players, but not good enough to carry the team. Getting nobody in the transition year and just Greg Wendt in his first real recruiting year left a real talent void that K had to overcome. It really was ironic that Duke lost Bender just before the ACC title game with appendicitis. Harrell, out of shake and disgruntled, made a poor replacement. Th Black Sunday loss to St. John's came with Bender and Dennard out (Dennard out with an ankle in sprained in a late night -- drunken? -- pickup game) and with Gminski battling food poisoning).

I think we should appreciate Foster for what he did -- he gave up one great team, a good three-year run ... and one of the most magical single-seasons in Duke history (1977-78).

Fantastic summary - both fun and painful to remember these events. I always thought Bubas brought in the great recruiting class - but didn't really know as recruiting was not followed very closely back then.

hq2
12-30-2011, 02:09 PM
His third season (1976-1977) started off differently. With senior Tate Armstrong as a high-scoring point, sophomore Jim Spanarkel on the wing and freshman center Mike Gminski in the middle, Duke lot its opener to Wake Fost (in the old Big 4 Tournament), but upset No, 15 NC State in the consolation game proceded to win 10 in a row, including a Pearl Harbor Day upset of No. 15 Tennessee (with Bernard King and Ernie Grunfeld) in Knoxville. But on Jan. 17, Duke won an overtime game at Virginia to go 11-3 ... in the game, leading scorer Tate Armstrong (a player Bucky recruited but Foster developed) broke his wrist and as lost for the year. Loisng Armstrong was devastating. Duke simply couldn't replace his ballhandling. With Steve Gray forced to play the point, Duke lost a series of heartbreaking games -- blowing late leads in losses to NC Sate nd Maryland, especially.


Overall, the whole post is right on the money! The '76 - '77 team is in my opinion one of the great tragedies of Duke basketball history. If Tate had stayed healthy,
that was the team that would have started Duke's return back to prominence. It had 3 (eventual) All Americans on it, and IMHO was on pace for a 20 win - top 20 season,
with associated NCAA bid. It's possible that Spanarkel and Gminski being thrown into the fire at a young age made them both better for the next year, but nonetheless,
it would have been great to see Tate go out against Carolina with a W and a 35-40 point game (of which he had many). Truly a sad ending to a promising year and a
would-have-been-great Duke career.

Indoor66
12-30-2011, 02:12 PM
Just a couple pf point:

-- Bucky inherited a load of talent, including five juniors from the most celebrated recruiting cass in Duke history. That included point guard Dick DeVenzio, regarded as the top PG recruit in the nation (Bubas beat Wooden, Smith and Driesell for him), Brad Evans, who was the Ron Curry of his day (Bear Bryant begged him to come play QB at Alabama) and Randy Denton, probably the most underrated superstar in Duke history (19.7 pg., 12.7 rpg. for his career). Bucky added a five-man recruiting class that became the first undefeated freshman team in Duke history. They were all his recruits, picked up in a transition year. It included some wonderful players -- PG Gary Melchionni, C Alan Shaw, WG Jeff Dawson, SF Richie O'Connor and WG Jim Fitzsimmons.

Bucky's problem was dealing with the kids of that era. They were different and he didn't connect with them. His program was ruined by the wave of player transfers -- Dawson, Fitzsimmons and O'Conner from his first class ... C Dave Elmer, F Ron Righter, S Sam May later ... The program slipped slowly downward -- from 20-10 (9-5 ACC) his second year to 14-12 (6-6), 12-14 (4-8) ... Bucky quit in he fall of '73 and interim coach Niel McGeachy presided over the 10-16 (3-10) year that followed.

-- Bill Foster arrived in the spring of 1974 and inherited much less talent than what Vic left Bucky. Foster took a little tiime to get traction -- he went 13-13 (2-10), 13-14 (3-9) in his first two seasons. If you remember, he installed an exciting running game -- as a recruiting ploy. Duke scored 100 pints four times in '75, including a 109-122 loss to Wake Forest.They also lost 95-05 to LSU.

His third season (1976-1977) started off differently. With senior Tate Armstrong as a high-scoring point, sophomore Jim Spanarkel on the wing and freshman center Mike Gminski in the middle, Duke lot its opener to Wake Fost (in the old Big 4 Tournament), but upset No, 15 NC State in the consolation game proceded to win 10 in a row, including a Pearl Harbor Day upset of No. 15 Tennessee (with Bernard King and Ernie Grunfeld) in Knoxville. But on Jan. 17, Duke won an overtime game at Virginia to go 11-3 ... in the game, leading scorer Tate Armstrong (a player Bucky recruited but Foster developed) broke his wrist and as lost for the year. Loisng Armstrong was devastating. Duke simply couldn't replace his ballhandling. With Steve Gray forced to play the point, Duke lost a series of heartbreaking games -- blowing late leads in losses to NC Sate nd Maryland, especially.

The Maryland loss on Feb. 5 was especially painful. Duke was up five with just seconds remaining (and, remember, no three-point shot). Maryland scored with something like eight seconds left to cut it to three. Duke inbounded to Gray. who tried to throw a crosscourt pass that hit the rim. Maryland's James Tillman (I think) came up with the ball and laid it in -- as Gray stupidly fouled him. Tillman added the FT and Maryland won in OT.

Foster, one of the most high-strung guys I've ever been around, said he was near suicide after that game. But later that night, everything changed -- he got a call from Gene Banks, who told Foster that he was coming to Duke. Folks, you can't understand what that meant at the time. Banks was not just a big recruit ... he was a superstar, a legend in Philadelphia. Recruiting writers argued whether Banks, New York's Albert King (Bernard's little brother) or this Magic Johnson guy out Michigan was the nation's best recruit. Getting "Tinkerbell" would be like ... maybe if Harrison Barnes had held his pres conference and announced that he was going to NC State. Nobody could believe that Banks picked Duke.

Digger Phelps refused to accept it and continued to recruit Banks hard until he signed. The scumbag.

The arrival of Banks and unheraded Kenny Dennard the next fall changed everything. Duke was all of a sudden good. We thought they would be great when Indiana transfer Bob Bender became eligible at midseason. But before that happened, John Harrell, a Durham Hillside kid who transferred from NCCU, stepped into the breech and got the Devils going. Bender came off the bench (and, yes, he did have a better assist/TO ratio).

That team went on a magical ride -- all the way to the NCAA title game. Keep in mind, that while Foster's career numbers aren't great, his last three seasons at Duke were 27-7 (8-4 ACC) with an ACC championship; 22-8 (9-3) with an ACC regular season championship; and 24-9 (7-7 ACC) with an ACC championship. He was 6-3 in NCAA play with one Final Four and one Elite Eight. His last team beat Kentucky in Rupp Arena in the Sweet 16 before losing to Joe Barry Carroll and Purdue in the regional finals.

By that time, Foster was already headed out the door. As noted before, he was more confortable building a program rather than sustaining success. The key to Bill was his recruiting strategy -- like Bobby Cremins later, he preferred to focus on one great recruit a year. At Duke, he had a great run with Spanarkel, Gminski, Banks and Vince Taylor, but after getting Taylor in the spring of '78, he began to misfire. He also made a terrible mistake in the fall of 1978, handing Bender the starting PG job in preseason and demoting Harrell to the second team (a move that turned Harrell into a malcontent). I think Harrell could have handled it if he had lost the job in practice, but after starting on the title team the year before, losing the job in the offseason killed his spirit.

When Krzyzewski arrived, he had Banks as a senior (plus Dennard, who was good, but not great), Taylor as a junior and a bunch of second line players -- guys like Chip Engellend, Tom Emma, Mike Tissaw -- decent supporting players, but not good enough to carry the team. Getting nobody in the transition year and just Greg Wendt in his first real recruiting year left a real talent void that K had to overcome. It really was ironic that Duke lost Bender just before the ACC title game with appendicitis. Harrell, out of shake and disgruntled, made a poor replacement. Th Black Sunday loss to St. John's came with Bender and Dennard out (Dennard out with an ankle in sprained in a late night -- drunken? -- pickup game) and with Gminski battling food poisoning).

I think we should appreciate Foster for what he did -- he gave up one great team, a good three-year run ... and one of the most magical single-seasons in Duke history (1977-78).

An excellent summary, though I must disagree with one item. John Harrell hyper-extended his Achilles tendon in a freak accident prior to the opening game of the '78-'79 season. He was running on campus and stepped into a hole. This was the setback that took him out of the lineup at the start of the season and he was unable to unseat Bender after that. Harrell did not recover his form that year.

jv001
12-31-2011, 12:35 AM
Just a couple pf point:

--


His third season (1976-1977) started off differently. With senior Tate Armstrong as a high-scoring point, sophomore Jim Spanarkel on the wing and freshman center Mike Gminski in the middle, Duke lot its opener to Wake Fost (in the old Big 4 Tournament), but upset No, 15 NC State in the consolation game proceded to win 10 in a row, including a Pearl Harbor Day upset of No. 15 Tennessee (with Bernard King and Ernie Grunfeld) in Knoxville. But on Jan. 17, Duke won an overtime game at Virginia to go 11-3 ... in the game, leading scorer Tate Armstrong (a player Bucky recruited but Foster developed) broke his wrist and as lost for the year. Loisng Armstrong was devastating. Duke simply couldn't replace his ballhandling. With Steve Gray forced to play the point, Duke lost a series of heartbreaking games -- blowing late leads in losses to NC Sate nd Maryland, especially.

The Maryland loss on Feb. 5 was especially painful. Duke was up five with just seconds remaining (and, remember, no three-point shot). Maryland scored with something like eight seconds left to cut it to three. Duke inbounded to Gray. who tried to throw a crosscourt pass that hit the rim. Maryland's James Tillman (I think) came up with the ball and laid it in -- as Gray stupidly fouled him. Tillman added the FT and Maryland won in OT.

Foster, one of the most high-strung guys I've ever been around, said he was near suicide after that game.






I think we should appreciate Foster for what he did -- he gave up one great team, a good three-year run ... and one of the most magical single-seasons in Duke history (1977-78).

Wasn't it the State game that Steve Gray dribbled the ball off his foot and out of bounds while just standing unguarded in the closing seconds? Like Foster, I thought about suicide after Gray replaced Tate in the starting lineup. If I remember correctly Tate recovered from the injury and made the Olympic team coached by dean smith. He remains one of my very favorite players in Duke history. GoDuke!

Olympic Fan
12-31-2011, 01:11 AM
Wasn't it the State game that Steve Gray dribbled the ball off his foot and out of bounds while just standing unguarded in the closing seconds? Like Foster, I thought about suicide after Gray replaced Tate in the starting lineup. If I remember correctly Tate recovered from the injury and made the Olympic team coached by dean smith. He remains one of my very favorite players in Duke history. GoDuke!

Tate made the 1976 Olympic team -- coached by Dean Smith -- but that was the summer after his junior year -- before his injury occurred Jan. 17, 1977. He didn't play for Duke again, although he recovered and was drafted by the NBA (the No. 13 pick in the first round by the Bulls ... he played two seasons, averging 3.8 ppg).

Tate Armstrong was one of the great shooters in Duke history, but only for a short time. As a freshman in 1973-74 (the Neil McGeachy year), he played little and averaged a modest 6.3 points a game. As a sophomore in Foster's first season (1974-75), Armstrong played a littlle more, but was nothing special -- averaging 9.7 ppg on a high scoring team. It was the next season (1975-76) that Tate emerged as a star. The 6-2 guard from Texas averaged 24.2 ppg. -- second in the ACC (to Kenny Carr at NC State) and 16th nationally. He finished the year strong, averaging 32 ppg for his final eight games. Remember, that's without a 3-point shot ... and many of Armstrong's shots were from long range.

He was basically a shooter with a curious behind the head shot (a little like Bob Verga's form). Considering where he shot from, his FG percentage in 1976 was pretty amazing 52.3 percent. He also averaged more than four assists per game.

His average was down slightly in the 14 games he played in 1976-77 -- 22.7 ppg as Spanarkel and Gminski took up more of the scoring load. But his percentage was up to 55.5 percent. He was still right at four assists a game.

JV001, you are right about Gray dribbling the ball off his foot to lose the State game in Durham. It's easy to rip on Gray, but remember, he was never a point guard. He was a strong shooter and defender, but a terrible ballhandler. He was forced into a role that he just couldn't handle.

heyman25
12-31-2011, 08:11 AM
Foster is a hero in my book because my first four years as a Duke fan were the Bucky train wreck. Remember that Bucky took a great recruiting class that Bubas brought in, coupled with several strong upperclassmen and took the program down. I watched player after player leave until; except for Gary Melchionni, we really didn't have much left to compete with in the ACC. Foster slowly built the team and 1978 was truly a magic moment for a Duke fan that had little to cheer for previously. Without him, coach K or whomever at a later date came on board probably could not have recruited the Dawkins class.

I've also wondered why Bucky gets such a huge pass for taking the program to such depths. Guess his ability to raise money has something to do with it.

Don't forget Alan Shaw from Melchionni's class.

arnie
12-31-2011, 08:56 AM
Don't forget Alan Shaw from Melchionni's class.

Shaw was still there - sort of.

jv001
12-31-2011, 10:14 AM
Tate made the 1976 Olympic team -- coached by Dean Smith -- but that was the summer after his junior year -- before his injury occurred Jan. 17, 1977. He didn't play for Duke again, although he recovered and was drafted by the NBA (the No. 13 pick in the first round by the Bulls ... he played two seasons, averging 3.8 ppg).

Tate Armstrong was one of the great shooters in Duke history, but only for a short time. As a freshman in 1973-74 (the Neil McGeachy year), he played little and averaged a modest 6.3 points a game. As a sophomore in Foster's first season (1974-75), Armstrong played a littlle more, but was nothing special -- averaging 9.7 ppg on a high scoring team. It was the next season (1975-76) that Tate emerged as a star. The 6-2 guard from Texas averaged 24.2 ppg. -- second in the ACC (to Kenny Carr at NC State) and 16th nationally. He finished the year strong, averaging 32 ppg for his final eight games. Remember, that's without a 3-point shot ... and many of Armstrong's shots were from long range.

He was basically a shooter with a curious behind the head shot (a little like Bob Verga's form). Considering where he shot from, his FG percentage in 1976 was pretty amazing 52.3 percent. He also averaged more than four assists per game.

His average was down slightly in the 14 games he played in 1976-77 -- 22.7 ppg as Spanarkel and Gminski took up more of the scoring load. But his percentage was up to 55.5 percent. He was still right at four assists a game.

JV001, you are right about Gray dribbling the ball off his foot to lose the State game in Durham. It's easy to rip on Gray, but remember, he was never a point guard. He was a strong shooter and defender, but a terrible ballhandler. He was forced into a role that he just couldn't handle.

I couldn't remember all those details(getting old), but I can remember Tate's and Bob Verga's shooting form. It was sort of funky, but it sure worked for both of them. I might have been too harsh on Gray's play, but since he is a former Dukie, I love him just the same. I also remember wanting Tate to get more minutes in his early career at Duke. When he made the Olympic team, I remember watching the team warm up and he was dunking the ball. I had never seen that while he was at Duke. Called my buddy who is a big Duke fan and told him the game was on tv so he could see him dunk it. Like I say, he was one of my all time favs. GoDuke!

hq2
12-31-2011, 10:22 AM
Wasn't it the State game that Steve Gray dribbled the ball off his foot and out of bounds while just standing unguarded in the closing seconds? Like Foster, I thought about suicide after Gray replaced Tate in the starting lineup.

I think Gray may have thought about it too. I've never seen a look of such utter mortification on anyone's face as that ball bounced out of bounds. It was as if someone had
just shot him. Steve Gray since then has gone on to have an incredibly successful career as a businessman, becoming pretty rich, as I recall. But you know what? I bet he
would give a million dollars to go back in time and change the outcome of that (and the Maryland) games. Those disasters have probably haunted him the rest of his life.

Bob Green
12-31-2011, 10:37 AM
I had the opportunity to watch the 1976 Olympic Team when they played a practice game at Reynolds Coliseum. It was between my junior and senior years of high school and I was at State attending a science workshop sponsored by the North Carolina Textiles Industry. I was thrilled to be able to watch my favorite player Tate Armstrong play alongside Scott May, Quinn Buckner and a couple of fellows from Chapel Hill whose names I can't remember. :cool: