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Duke09
04-05-2009, 10:48 PM
Carolina hasn't produced a pro in over ten years, since Antwan and Vince Carter left. That was 1998. I've been thinking about this for a long time. When will the media figure this out? Instead of the usual Duke memo about not producing big men or pros. Since 1998, who has come out of Carolina and done well?
Joe Forte? disappeared
Sean May? Ate himself out of the league
Rashad McCants? As Enigmatic as ever in the great North
Raymond Felton? Decent passer but shoots under 40% from the field for his career
Brandan Wright? Still young but getting under 20mpg
Marvin Williams? The best of the bunch, decent player but hardly an All-Star
Brendan Hayood? 7.5ppg career average

Meanwhile, in that same time frame, Duke has produced Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, Luol Deng, Chris Duhon, Jason Williams if he never got on a motorcycle, and Michael Dunleavy.

I just wanted to say it.

dukemsu
04-05-2009, 10:56 PM
Carolina hasn't produced a pro in over ten years, since Antwan and Vince Carter left. That was 1998. I've been thinking about this for a long time. When will the media figure this out? Instead of the usual Duke memo about not producing big men or pros. Since 1998, who has come out of Carolina and done well?
Joe Forte? disappeared
Sean May? Ate himself out of the league
Rashad McCants? As Enigmatic as ever in the great North
Raymond Felton? Decent passer but shoots under 40% from the field for his career
Brandan Wright? Still young but getting under 20mpg
Marvin Williams? The best of the bunch, decent player but hardly an All-Star
Brendan Hayood? 7.5ppg career average

Meanwhile, in that same time frame, Duke has produced Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, Luol Deng, Chris Duhon, Jason Williams if he never got on a motorcycle, and Michael Dunleavy.

I just wanted to say it.


But the Cookie Monster will be there right behind the bench tomorrow, in a seat that would usually be reserved for someone who produced in the NBA.

May had a tremendous offensive game, but he was never going to be an NBA regular, due to his injuries, which were caused at least in part by his weight issues.

As for the rest....pfftt. Woudn't give up on M. Williams just yet, or Wright. Both tremendous talents, but still raw.

dukemsu

chrisheery
04-05-2009, 11:03 PM
Felton is the best of the bunch. His numbers this year are very good and he is sought after by a number of teams going into free agency.

One you left off:
Brandan Wright


That said, I agree with the point of your post. None of them have become the stars Carolina gets credit for producing. I can almost guarantee none of the current guys will, either, though. Lawson is undersized and will likely play a lot like TJ Ford in the NBA. The best pro prospect that plays a lot is probably Danny Green, which isn't saying much. I guess Ellington could be a useful pro, but he's certainly not someone a team will be built around. Ed Davis might have the most upside.

Not sure if that is an indictment of the program though. As many of us say about Duke when people say Duke doesn't produce pros, who cares? If you can win with guys that aren't pros, isn't that all the better for your program?

zingit
04-05-2009, 11:24 PM
Uhhh, I'm pretty sure any UNC fan would respond, "Michael Jordan." Q.E.D. I know you said "since Antwan and Vince Carter left," but still, when you got the greatest player ever, most people will give you a free pass, at least for a while. Who knows if that free pass might expire sometime, though, and people will start talking about how unremarkable most of their recent pros have been.

eddiehaskell
04-05-2009, 11:26 PM
May had a tremendous offensive game, but he was never going to be an NBA regular, due to his injuries, which were caused at least in part by his weight issues.Considering the Bobcats used a lotto pic on him, they probably thought he would at least be serviceable for while. So far he's played in 80 games in 3 years. During '06-'07 season he averaged 11.9 ppg and 6.7 rpg in 35 games, so maybe he can get back to that level of play.

Wright really isn't that young anymore - he'll be 22 in October. A lot of players around his age are playing better. Granted, he may just be a late bloomer.

chrisheery
04-05-2009, 11:33 PM
Uhhh, I'm pretty sure any UNC fan would respond, "Michael Jordan." Q.E.D. I know you said "since Antwan and Vince Carter left," but still, when you got the greatest player ever, most people will give you a free pass, at least for a while. Who knows if that free pass might expire sometime, though, and people will start talking about how unremarkable most of their recent pros have been.

If you aren't going to play by the rules, it makes it very hard for us to make a decent case.

Kidding, of course they have that, but Elton was a more valuable, bigger star than Jamison. Vince at his best could have been one of the greatest ever, but he lacked the drive that Jordan had. They also have Worthy, Perkins, and, of course, Scott Cherry.

eddiehaskell
04-06-2009, 12:20 AM
Looking back at Roy's 15 years at Kansas, other than Paul Pierce, I don't remember any "star" players coming from Kansas.

Drew Gooden and Kirk Hinrich are pretty good...Raef LaFrentz was OK....

Maybe Dean (not UNC in general) was just a good producer of NBA talent (especially during the last 20 years of his career)? Jordan, Carter, McAdoo, Jamison, Worthy, Walter Davis, Phil Ford, Perkins, Stackhouse, Wallace, Brad Daugherty, Kenny Smith, Al Wood, Hubert Davis....

Another thing I notice about the above list is that Dean didn't let many talented players escape the state of North Carolina. Jordan, Worthy, W. Davis, McAdoo, Jamison, Daugherty, Stackhouse, H. Davis, Phil Ford and H. Davis are all from NC. Maybe it's not possible to do that now with players being shipped all around the country to prep school.

jma4life
04-06-2009, 12:56 AM
Wright and Marvin were only at UNC for one year. For the Carolina fans that don't give Duke Corey or Luol, what do they say about those two.

Anyway, I still maintain that succeeding in the NBA has more to do with the player's talent and individual work ethic. I don't think a coaching staff can have a big effect on a player's development. If anything, I think the biggest thing a program can do is shape the player's ability to deal with being a man living alone, etc in the pro's and all that stuff but as far as player development, I think that while the top programs differ, it is not too extreme a difference.

I do think a program can have a significant effect on whether a player actually makes the NBA. What I mean by that is evidenced well by Mike Dunleavy's pro career. The guy was a bum for GS. He was woefully underperforming and just did not do well at all relative to expectations.

Well, you put Mike in Indiana and everthing changes. The different "program" did not make him a better player. It simply allowed him to showcase and utilize his talents.

That is where programs differ. Maybe JJ would have made the same improvements at other programs but who knows whether he woudl have been given the opportunity he had at Duke. And with a guy like Stephen Curry, maybe he would've made the same or even greater improvements at Duke. But would he have had the opportunity to do as well as he has at Davidson?

These are random hypotheticals but my main point is, a program is most important in its ability to let players showcase talent. Actual development of talent is more dependent upon the player's individual work ethic, and innate abilities and frankly, a lot of these guys could make as much improvements in their games busting their asses with their older siblings as they could at a top program.

rthomas
04-06-2009, 07:53 AM
Don't forget that Kobe would've picked Duke, so he goes on our list.

bjornolf
04-06-2009, 08:24 AM
Duke09: You forgot Maggette in your list of Duke players. I think he's doing pretty well in the league. I don't think you can include Jay Williams though. You have to take the motorcycle into account, otherwise you'd have to give Sean May the benefit of the doubt if he'd stayed off the Big Macs. A player's off-court actions that basically end his career can't be ignored.

Chrisheery: Duke09 did have Wright. He's right under Felton.

sandinmyshoes
04-06-2009, 08:55 AM
You have to love the sports fan cycle. We start pointing out the difference between pro players the last ten years, and then the UNC fans will use the "why hasn't K done more with so many players" argument that we used to use against Smith.

davekay1971
04-06-2009, 08:56 AM
I never saw the "Duke doesn't produce pros" as a tremendous slam against the program. First of all, it is a clearly inaccurate claim. Second, if Coach K was able to get to all those final fours and win those national championships and all those ACC championships without pro talent, he must be a HELL of a coach!

Carolina recruiting fell off during Guthridge's tenure, and picked up again under Doh. Roy took a team with some pro talent to the championship, then reloaded. Felton, May, McCants, and Williams haven't set the world on fire, but Felton, at least, has a solid pro career, and Williams may yet develop. The current Carolina team, all too likely to win a NC, will produce probably no NBA all stars (except perhaps Lawson), but 4 NBA players among the current starters, with Davis sure to be an NBA player whenever he decides to go.

brsett
04-06-2009, 09:13 AM
I don't disagree with your point that NBA talent at UNC has been a bit down recently, but then I look to their upcoming recruiting class, and ... well.. I think they'll be well represented before too long. The Henson kid looks ridiculous. Along with the other big name kids they've got coming I think a return the to the UNC of the 70's and 80's my be imminent.

bjornolf
04-06-2009, 09:31 AM
Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll pick Roy and his staff for Team USA. Then Carolina can have a four year downswing and we can get some revenge. Maybe as an added bonus, the players won't be big fans of his. ;) Just dreaming a little.

miramar
04-06-2009, 09:38 AM
Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll pick Roy and his staff for Team USA. Then Carolina can have a four year downswing and we can get some revenge. Maybe as an added bonus, the players won't be big fans of his. ;) Just dreaming a little.

There was an article not too long ago that indicated that Deano insisted that Coach K was the best possible candidate for Team USA, which of course was just an evil plot to put too much on his plate. Perhaps Coach K can return the favor and suggest they give the job to ol' Roy. They can even load up the team with Carolina guys, just as Deano did back in 1976.

JimBD
04-06-2009, 10:14 AM
Uhhh, I'm pretty sure any UNC fan would respond, "Michael Jordan." Q.E.D. I know you said "since Antwan and Vince Carter left," but still, when you got the greatest player ever, most people will give you a free pass, at least for a while. Who knows if that free pass might expire sometime, though, and people will start talking about how unremarkable most of their recent pros have been.

Did UNC "produce" Michael Jordan? I'm pretty sure if he had gone to a college other than UNC, he still would have been one of the best players ever.

studdlee10
04-06-2009, 10:32 AM
Anthony Randolph has surpassed Wright on the depth chart.

Wright is in a rather unfortunate situation. He's young and talented, but has been passed on the depth chart. He'll likely enter free agency unheralded, where he will be picked up for depth purposes.

He most certainly can become a good player in the league, but it's not encouraging that he's been passed up by a rookie who like him only spent only one year in college



Considering the Bobcats used a lotto pic on him, they probably thought he would at least be serviceable for while. So far he's played in 80 games in 3 years. During '06-'07 season he averaged 11.9 ppg and 6.7 rpg in 35 games, so maybe he can get back to that level of play.

Wright really isn't that young anymore - he'll be 22 in October. A lot of players around his age are playing better. Granted, he may just be a late bloomer.

Biscuit
04-06-2009, 10:45 AM
Carolina hasn't produced a pro in over ten years, since Antwan and Vince Carter left. That was 1998. I've been thinking about this for a long time. When will the media figure this out? Instead of the usual Duke memo about not producing big men or pros. Since 1998, who has come out of Carolina and done well?
Joe Forte? disappeared
Sean May? Ate himself out of the league
Rashad McCants? As Enigmatic as ever in the great North
Raymond Felton? Decent passer but shoots under 40% from the field for his career
Brandan Wright? Still young but getting under 20mpg
Marvin Williams? The best of the bunch, decent player but hardly an All-Star
Brendan Hayood? 7.5ppg career average

Meanwhile, in that same time frame, Duke has produced Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, Luol Deng, Chris Duhon, Jason Williams if he never got on a motorcycle, and Michael Dunleavy.

I just wanted to say it.


As a Tar Heel I can readily admit that Duke has produced better pros than UNC over the last decade, mostly because Duke was the superior program in the early part of the decade and those are the players that are peaking now.

But you can't say "Jason Williams if he never got on a motorcycle" any more than I can say "Sean May if he never saw a McDonalds." It doesn't work that way.

Similarly, you can't downgrade Felton, a #5 pick and a PG who averaged 7 APG, for his poor shooting percentage, and then include as an asset in Duke's favor Dunleavy, a #3 pick who plays the 2/3 and who shoots almost as poorly. I promise you every single team in the league would rather have Felton than Dunleavy.

It is also a little strange to include Brand, who left in 2000, as a Duke product in your analysis but not include Jamison and Carter, who left in 1998. Jamison might be two years older, but he's been a lot more valuable than Brand this year.

Honestly, I think at this point it's kind of close when you consider all active pros. I'd give a slight edge to Duke. But when you consider the difference in the quality of the programs from 1999-2004, it's actually remarkable that the difference isn't greater.

CLT Devil
04-06-2009, 11:13 AM
Living in Charlotte Ive been able to follow Felton's career as a Bobcat. He is very good...maybe his percentages don't show but he is very good at distributing and is a pretty powerful PG. I'd say he is the best of their pros right now.

flyingdutchdevil
04-06-2009, 11:27 AM
For the record, I hate UNC. I hope Lawson stumps his big toe again and can't play tonight, Hanstravel gets called for 5 fouls in the first 5 minutes, and Ellington shoots 0-12 from behind the arc.

That said, UNC may be the one school that can't be knocked for their NBA success and that comes down to two words - Micheal and Jordan. Hate to say it, but IMO he's the greatest player ever to play the game. It doesn't matter if UNC doesn't produce a player who averages more than 10 points per game again, they still have MJ.

And regarding Kobe, he's not on our list. If he is, Duke haters would point to Shaun Livingston as another example of the "Duke curse"....

wolfpackdevil
04-06-2009, 11:36 AM
For one, this thread makes no sense what so ever.

Once those guys get out of college they don't really care about where they played in college.

If carolina can get great players while there in college, they could care less how there players do in the NBA.

And Raymond Felton is the starting PG for an NBA team that is close to a playoff spot, and if not this year will play in the postseason next year

longtimefan
04-06-2009, 11:41 AM
I have to disagree on jordan.yes he was very good. i believe it was more team chemistry of the bulls that helped him excel. i also think he made a living pushing off.top five probably.magic is my vote for best player of all time.

Biscuit
04-06-2009, 11:53 AM
I have to disagree on jordan.yes he was very good. i believe it was more team chemistry of the bulls that helped him excel. i also think he made a living pushing off.top five probably.magic is my vote for best player of all time.

You are wrong.

I'm not just saying I think you are wrong. I am saying as an almost indisputable fact that you are wrong.

Any statistic that anyone uses to compare players will tell you that. Player efficiency rating, win shares, offensive/defensive ratings- anything. Even traditional stats like scoring averages or even NBA titles and MVP awards,. Jordan's the greatest there ever was, and to argue otherwise is preposterous.


Also, how you can consider the Bulls team chemistry in evaluating Jordan but ignore the fact that Magic played with Kareem and Worthy his entire career?

flyingdutchdevil
04-06-2009, 11:58 AM
You are wrong.

I'm not just saying I think you are wrong. I am saying as an almost indisputable fact that you are wrong.

Any statistic that anyone uses to compare players will tell you that. Player efficiency rating, win shares, offensive/defensive ratings- anything. Even traditional stats like scoring averages or even NBA titles and MVP awards,. Jordan's the greatest there ever was, and to argue otherwise is preposterous.


Also, how you can consider the Bulls team chemistry in evaluating Jordan but ignore the fact that Magic played with Kareem and Worthy his entire career?

Absolutely have to agree. You can knock MJ's life choices (gambling, choosing UNC, being the worst GM in the game), but he is the best player in the world.

What we did for basketball in the US and abroad is unparallel. I've lived out of the US my whole life (minus college at Duke) and I can safely say that MJ single-handedly made basketball an international sport.

Matches
04-06-2009, 12:03 PM
And Raymond Felton is the starting PG for an NBA team that is close to a playoff spot, and if not this year will play in the postseason next year

This. Felton is a very solid pro. Not a superstar, but he is well above average. Marvin Williams is also an above-average pro. McCants is a decent NBA role player. Jury is still out on Wright. Carolina hasn't been cranking out pros over the last ten years the way it used to, but they've done ok, particularly when one considers the dip in recruiting in late 90's/ early 00's.

Rich
04-06-2009, 12:30 PM
Absolutely have to agree. You can knock MJ's life choices (gambling, choosing UNC, being the worst GM in the game), but he is the best player in the world.

What we did for basketball in the US and abroad is unparallel. I've lived out of the US my whole life (minus college at Duke) and I can safely say that MJ single-handedly made basketball an international sport.

I tend to agree with you about MJ, but there might be some elders who would say it's Bill Russell. Following Magic and Bird, and the rise of TV as a medium, MJ's flashiness, skill, smile, and timing was just about perfect for the explosion of the NBA and his role as an international icon. I think at one point his Q rating was second only to Michael Jackson. But it's impossible to compare different players from different generations. A lot of the influence that MJ had on the world has to do with timing and media, something that Bill Russell missed.

I think at some point in the not too distant future there will be a good argument that Lebron James, with his size, speed, domination, and "recency" is the best ever. And with the rise of the digital media and the internet since Jordan he may actually be more exposed than Jordan was. It will take a few championships to get to that level, but it's only a matter of time.

UrinalCake
04-06-2009, 12:33 PM
For a long time, I think the notion of Duke not producing great pros had a small element of truth to it. Things have changed in the last 10-15 years, but people's perceptions do not change that quickly. The Duke stars are seen as exceptions rather than the rule, and even some of the more successful players are seen as overrated and/or overpaid.

Don't know if this has been mentioned but Duke's NBA alumni also haven't had a lot of postseason success in the NBA, thus there hasn't been as much exposure for them.

The current crop of Duke players in the NBA is a result of the "glory years" between about 1998-2004. We had an amazing run and UNC was faltering under all the coaching changes. Unfortunately, five or so years from now that will likely reverse itself as UNC is bringing in plenty of NBA talent and I don't see any of our younger grads becoming NBA studs (haven't given up on J.J. finding a role though)

UrinalCake
04-06-2009, 12:39 PM
If carolina can get great players while there in college, they could care less how there players do in the NBA.

I disagree; the reason why just about every player comes to a top program is for a shot at the NBA. If the school doesn't routinely turn out NBA players, then that recruit is not going to want to come. So indirectly it affects us very much whether there is a PERCEPTION that we can produce NBA players.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
04-06-2009, 12:41 PM
You are wrong.

I'm not just saying I think you are wrong. I am saying as an almost indisputable fact that you are wrong.

Any statistic that anyone uses to compare players will tell you that. Player efficiency rating, win shares, offensive/defensive ratings- anything. Even traditional stats like scoring averages or even NBA titles and MVP awards,. Jordan's the greatest there ever was, and to argue otherwise is preposterous.


Also, how you can consider the Bulls team chemistry in evaluating Jordan but ignore the fact that Magic played with Kareem and Worthy his entire career?

Preposterous?

http://doyouwantthejuice.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/aafq036bill-russell-photofile-posters.jpg

That guy has twice as many rings, Wilt scored a lot more, etc. Jordan's definitely in the discussion, but comparing different eras just makes it impossible to say that any player is definitively "the best ever."

I tend to agree with the view that college choice has essentially nothing to do with NBA success, especially in an era where superstars don't stay for 3-4 years any more. It's fun to follow the NBA Alum fantasy league every season, but the "school" that actually wins most years is "Didn't Go To College." A team of Parker, Kobe, LeBron, Garnett, Howard would smoke any alumni team you throw out there.

Biscuit
04-06-2009, 12:49 PM
Preposterous?

http://doyouwantthejuice.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/aafq036bill-russell-photofile-posters.jpg

That guy has twice as many rings, Wilt scored a lot more, etc. Jordan's definitely in the discussion, but comparing different eras just makes it impossible to say that any player is definitively "the best ever."

I tend to agree with the view that college choice has essentially nothing to do with NBA success, especially in an era where superstars don't stay for 3-4 years any more. It's fun to follow the NBA Alum fantasy league every season, but the "school" that actually wins most years is "Didn't Go To College." A team of Parker, Kobe, LeBron, Garnett, Howard would smoke any alumni team you throw out there.

Russell excelled on one end of the court. He was not outstanding on offense. He's not among the top 25 of all time in career player efficiency rating, although there's plenty of other centers. Numbers 2,3 and 4 are all centers. Jordan is of course #1, even though he played a lot more games past his prime than others on the list.

So, yeah, preposterous. Although at least Russell has the More Titles argument. There is no argument to be made for Magic.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
04-06-2009, 01:12 PM
Russell excelled on one end of the court. He was not outstanding on offense. He's not among the top 25 of all time in career player efficiency rating, although there's plenty of other centers. Numbers 2,3 and 4 are all centers. Jordan is of course #1, even though he played a lot more games past his prime than others on the list.

So, yeah, preposterous. Although at least Russell has the More Titles argument. There is no argument to be made for Magic.

Oh, I don't think Magic is in the top 10 so I'm definitely not defending that. But Jordan doesn't have the most titles, the most wins, or the most points/rebounds/assists. Empirically, there's no major stat that puts Jordan at #1 without resorting to silly, after-the-fact stats like "highest career regular season scoring average."

And that's before we get into discussions about relative league strength and competitive pressure, historical trends in officiating, major rules changes, or the simple fact that Russell faced vitriolic and dangerous racist threats every time he stepped on the court.

Look, if you're going to make PER the end-all, be-all that's fine (although even Hollinger admits it's is a flawed system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Efficiency_Rating#Problems_With_PER) that rewards offense too much). But I'm not sure everyone would agree that T-Mac is one of the 20 greatest players (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Efficiency_Rating#Career_PER_leaders) in NBA history. There's an argument that Jordan is the greatest, but PER is a very slender reed to hang the statement that arguing for any other player is "preposterous."

jimsumner
04-06-2009, 01:12 PM
"Once those guys get out of college they don't really care about where they played in college.

If carolina can get great players while there in college, they could care less how there players do in the NBA."

Going to have to post a dissenting opinion here.

First, an awful lot of NBA players do keep up with their alma maters, do go back in summers, do maintain contact with former teammates.

Why would we assume that non-athletes have an allegiance to their alma maters but people who represented that school on a national stage would not?

And colleges absolutely care how their players perform at the NBA level because it matters to the top recruits.

Biscuit
04-06-2009, 01:31 PM
Oh, I don't think Magic is in the top 10 so I'm definitely not defending that. But Jordan doesn't have the most titles, the most wins, or the most points/rebounds/assists. Empirically, there's no major stat that puts Jordan at #1 without resorting to silly, after-the-fact stats like "highest career regular season scoring average."

And that's before we get into discussions about relative league strength and competitive pressure, historical trends in officiating, major rules changes, or the simple fact that Russell faced vitriolic and dangerous racist threats every time he stepped on the court.

Look, if you're going to make PER the end-all, be-all that's fine (although even Hollinger admits it's is a flawed system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Efficiency_Rating#Problems_With_PER) that rewards offense too much). But I'm not sure everyone would agree that T-Mac is one of the 20 greatest players (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Efficiency_Rating#Career_PER_leaders) in NBA history. There's an argument that Jordan is the greatest, but PER is a very slender reed to hang the statement that arguing for any other player is "preposterous."

I agree about PER, but Jordan does very well on other stat ratings also. Efficiency numbers also make him look pretty good, as do Win Shares. There aren't records back to Russell's time to calculate that stuff for him, but the whole picture is pretty impressive for Jordan's argument. If anything, I'd say he's underrated.

I'll abandon the "preposterous" thing. A few other players, including Russell and Wilt, ciould make arguments. Magic, as we both seem to agree, is not one of them.

Sorry I wandered off topic, folks.

bjornolf
04-06-2009, 01:33 PM
I don't think you can include Jay Williams though. You have to take the motorcycle into account, otherwise you'd have to give Sean May the benefit of the doubt if he'd stayed off the Big Macs. A player's off-court actions that basically end his career can't be ignored.





But you can't say "Jason Williams if he never got on a motorcycle" any more than I can say "Sean May if he never saw a McDonalds." It doesn't work that way.


Dude, did you even READ my post a few above yours? You just paraphrased me PERFECTLY. I went with "big mac" instead of McDaonald's, but other than that, I said the SAME thing. Sheesh. :rolleyes:

I appreciate the flattery though, especially from a heel. ;)

Biscuit
04-06-2009, 01:52 PM
Dude, did you even READ my post a few above yours? You just paraphrased me PERFECTLY. I went with "big mac" instead of McDaonald's, but other than that, I said the SAME thing. Sheesh. :rolleyes:

I appreciate the flattery though, especially from a heel. ;)

Oops.

I thought about going with Chick-Fil-A instead, but it hit a little too close to my own waistline.

Bostondevil
04-06-2009, 02:03 PM
So, yeah, preposterous. Although at least Russell has the More Titles argument.

Shaking head in dismay, sigh, such a homer. Jordan might beat Russell in one on one but no way those Bulls teams win all the championships if they have to face a team with Bill Russell. He was the best teammate of all time. If I got first pick in a fantasy basketball draft where I could have any player in his prime, I start with Russell. All he ever did was win. Did you read that article about Shane Battier? Russell was that guy too, only with even better stats.

Forget about quality pros and let's talk about living up to expectations because if you consider that, Vince Carter hasn't really been a success in the NBA. Stackhouse is in the same category, should have been a better pro than he turned out to be. Carlos Boozer has far exceeded his. Brand's probably at the break even point. Jason Williams is in the what might have been category. JJ wasn't expected to be so hot in the NBA, his game was certainly analyzed as being not worthy, so I'd say he's exceeded expectations. Battier? Yep. Magette? He's probably what we would have expected, hard to say with a one and done guy. Marvin Williams, underachiever, Wright, same thing, Forte, you bet. William Avery should have stayed at Duke another year, poor kid, but no, he didn't live up to the lottery pick, neither did Trajan.

bjornolf
04-06-2009, 02:18 PM
Oops.

I thought about going with Chick-Fil-A instead, but it hit a little too close to my own waistline.

Eh, no biggie. I thought it was funny more than anything else. :p And I hear you on the waistline thing. Ouch. :eek:

longtimefan
04-06-2009, 02:47 PM
You are wrong.

I'm not just saying I think you are wrong. I am saying as an almost indisputable fact that you are wrong.

Any statistic that anyone uses to compare players will tell you that. Player efficiency rating, win shares, offensive/defensive ratings- anything. Even traditional stats like scoring averages or even NBA titles and MVP awards,. Jordan's the greatest there ever was, and to argue otherwise is preposterous.


Also, how you can consider the Bulls team chemistry in evaluating Jordan but ignore the fact that Magic played with Kareem and Worthy his entire career?

Game 6 of the 1980 finals kareem was out.magic started at center.he played every position on the court in that game.42 points 15 rebounds 6 assists and thier first championship since 71 i think.i dont think jordan could play every position on the court.nor was he asked to.magic was did and excelled.

longtimefan
04-06-2009, 02:59 PM
{continued kids interrupted}I dont believe team chemistry and player ability have a lot to do with each other .while both teams had great players i think magic was more versatile than jordan.i cant argue with russell that was before my time.

BobbyFan
04-06-2009, 03:45 PM
I'll abandon the "preposterous" thing. A few other players, including Russell and Wilt, ciould make arguments. Magic, as we both seem to agree, is not one of them.

This is fair. I consider Jordan the greatest ever, but I think the two other players for whom strong cases can be made are Wilt and Kareem.

jimsumner
04-06-2009, 04:20 PM
Let me throw another name into the hopper. Oscar Robertson. Probably the most versatile player in basketball history and absolutely unstoppable one-on-one.

Only won one NBA title and that was as a junior partner to Kareem. But his best years were against the Celtics juggernaut and Cincy never had the horses to beat the Celts in a best-of-seven-series. I probably wouldn't put the Big O ahead of Wilt, MJ, or Russ but I think he belongs on the short list.

KandG
04-06-2009, 05:12 PM
Felton is the best of the bunch. His numbers this year are very good and he is sought after by a number of teams going into free agency.

One you left off:
Brandan Wright





I liked Felton as a college player, but as a pro he is at best solid (in the way Chris Duhon and Steve Blake are solid) and most people who watch a lot of pro games would not classify him as "very good" nor likely to be heavily "sought after" on the free agent market -- especially with a guard-rich draft coming up and the bad economy.

Felton is a terrible shooter and a questionable decision maker -- his primary assets are his rebounding for his position as well as his steals. For someone who handles the ball as much as he does, he's not terribly efficient. A few Bobcat fans I know feel they would have made the playoffs if Larry Brown had handed the reins to Augustin sooner -- I don't agree, but Felton is no where near as enjoyable to watch as a pro as he was as a college player.

Wright has more potential, but he's trapped in that dysfunctional mess of a franchise (Golden State) -- he needs to find an environment that's more conducive to his development, the way Dun did.

DUKIE V(A)
04-06-2009, 05:14 PM
Would have loved to see Brendan Wright in a Duke uniform...I am pretty sure he would have been on the court more for us than Carolina (I remember liking it when he wasn't playing) and been huge for us...I haven't followed Wright's career enough to know but he is one who seems to have huge potential...assuming there aren't personal issues, I would not give up on him being a very good NBA player.

By the way, I think the larger error Biscuit made was comparing JWill and May in any way. Seriously, Biscuit, as you said to my fellow Dukie, you are wrong. There is NO COMPARISON (even if you are using the comparison to make another point). I'm just not saying that I THINK there is no comparison. I'm saying there is NO COMPARISON. May would not be an NBA difference maker even if in better physical condition whereas ANY NBA GM would prefer a healthy JWill to your beloved Felton (who I grant you is a very talented player in his own right). I think May was a good player college player who excelled his last year in school. JWill was a difference maker from jump. Biscuit -- please tell me you don't think May and JWill, due to their circumstances, were comparable losses of talent to the world of basketball.

heyman25
04-07-2009, 03:17 AM
I tend to agree with you about MJ, but there might be some elders who would say it's Bill Russell. Following Magic and Bird, and the rise of TV as a medium, MJ's flashiness, skill, smile, and timing was just about perfect for the explosion of the NBA and his role as an international icon. I think at one point his Q rating was second only to Michael Jackson. But it's impossible to compare different players from different generations. A lot of the influence that MJ had on the world has to do with timing and media, something that Bill Russell missed.

I think at some point in the not too distant future there will be a good argument that Lebron James, with his size, speed, domination, and "recency" is the best ever. And with the rise of the digital media and the internet since Jordan he may actually be more exposed than Jordan was. It will take a few championships to get to that level, but it's only a matter of time.
LeBron will be the greatest after his career is over in the NBA. Oscar Robertson had 5 straight years averaging triple doubles.He was as great as Jordan.

devildownunder
04-07-2009, 03:20 AM
For the record, I hate UNC. I hope Lawson stumps his big toe again and can't play tonight, Hanstravel gets called for 5 fouls in the first 5 minutes, and Ellington shoots 0-12 from behind the arc.

That said, UNC may be the one school that can't be knocked for their NBA success and that comes down to two words - Micheal and Jordan. Hate to say it, but IMO he's the greatest player ever to play the game. It doesn't matter if UNC doesn't produce a player who averages more than 10 points per game again, they still have MJ.

And regarding Kobe, he's not on our list. If he is, Duke haters would point to Shaun Livingston as another example of the "Duke curse"....

I don't believe this is true. Not too many years ago, I heard a radio announcer say "Death, taxes and Duke in the Final Four", now the program is known for its relative lack of success in March. Perceptions can and do change. It just takes a long time and a high-profile turnaround of some sort.

Hey, maybe Hansbrough will help us out on this one. :D

eddiehaskell
04-07-2009, 04:37 AM
LeBron will be the greatest after his career is over in the NBA. Oscar Robertson had 5 straight years averaging triple doubles.He was as great as Jordan.But Jordan has 6 rings and Oscar has 1. LeBron is a stat sheet stuffer, but so far he's ringless. If Jordan didn't take 2 years off to play baseball (largely due to his father's murder), he'd likely have 8 rings. I'd say LeBron has the best chance of eclipsing Jordan, but I wouldn't say it's a certainty. He's only 24 so he has a lot of playing to do. He could settle into his prime and rattle off 4 or 5 straight championships. But then again, a lot of things can happen between now and then.

Jordan also won a NCAA championship and he was on a dominate USA basketball team...I think that counts for something.

Matches
04-08-2009, 12:15 PM
I liked Felton as a college player, but as a pro he is at best solid (in the way Chris Duhon and Steve Blake are solid) and most people who watch a lot of pro games would not classify him as "very good" nor likely to be heavily "sought after" on the free agent market -- especially with a guard-rich draft coming up and the bad economy.

Felton is a terrible shooter and a questionable decision maker -- his primary assets are his rebounding for his position as well as his steals. For someone who handles the ball as much as he does, he's not terribly efficient. A few Bobcat fans I know feel they would have made the playoffs if Larry Brown had handed the reins to Augustin sooner -- I don't agree, but Felton is no where near as enjoyable to watch as a pro as he was as a college player.



Felton went for 32 last night - pretty impressive performance. I think Augustin is the Bobcats' PG of the future but Felton is a very important part of that team. He's not a great shooter, nor was he in college, but he is an all-around good ballplayer. I'd put him as at least Duhon's equal (D'Antoni's system tends to inflate PG numbers somewhat), and well ahead of Blake, who IMO is marginal at best.

marinbobbyduhon
04-08-2009, 04:46 PM
Wright and Marvin were only at UNC for one year. For the Carolina fans that don't give Duke Corey or Luol, what do they say about those two.

Anyway, I still maintain that succeeding in the NBA has more to do with the player's talent and individual work ethic. I don't think a coaching staff can have a big effect on a player's development. If anything, I think the biggest thing a program can do is shape the player's ability to deal with being a man living alone, etc in the pro's and all that stuff but as far as player development, I think that while the top programs differ, it is not too extreme a difference.

I do think a program can have a significant effect on whether a player actually makes the NBA. What I mean by that is evidenced well by Mike Dunleavy's pro career. The guy was a bum for GS. He was woefully underperforming and just did not do well at all relative to expectations.

Well, you put Mike in Indiana and everthing changes. The different "program" did not make him a better player. It simply allowed him to showcase and utilize his talents.

That is where programs differ. Maybe JJ would have made the same improvements at other programs but who knows whether he woudl have been given the opportunity he had at Duke. And with a guy like Stephen Curry, maybe he would've made the same or even greater improvements at Duke. But would he have had the opportunity to do as well as he has at Davidson?

These are random hypotheticals but my main point is, a program is most important in its ability to let players showcase talent. Actual development of talent is more dependent upon the player's individual work ethic, and innate abilities and frankly, a lot of these guys could make as much improvements in their games busting their asses with their older siblings as they could at a top program.


I think you hit the nail on the proverbial head with that statement. I live in So. Oregon and I remember watching a game at South Medford late in the 2007 season. South Medford was trailing the Eugene team and Kyle just took over the game and South Medford ended up winning comfortably in the 4th qtr. But E.J. made a couple of nice plays during that stretch and I thought he showed potiential. But I never dreamed that he would become the 2nd Singler to win the 6A Player of the Year award. I think Oregon is going to have a very nice player on their hands.

While everyone saw Kyle's potential early on, it seems E.J. didn't become a leader until his Senior year. But most telling in his growth as a basketball player is his statement on how much it helped to have to guard Kyle in practice. Here are some quotes from an article about E.J. from OregonLive:

"E.J. Singler is now is the Class 6A boys basketball player of the year, as voted by the state's coaches. He and Kyle, the 2007 co-player of the year with Lake Oswego's Kevin Love, are the only brothers in Oregon history to achieve the distinction at the state's highest classification.

E.J. Singler has been known as a tough-minded player since he made the South Medford varsity team as a freshman, but few understood the degree to which that was true during his senior year. He underwent surgery last week to repair torn meniscus cartilage in his left knee after playing with the injury all season.

At South Medford, Singler never thought of himself in Kyle's shadow.

He was a valuable role player in 2007, when the Panthers were led to the state title by Kyle Singler and Michael Harthun.

In practices, E.J. often was assigned to guard Kyle. The workouts were intense, said South Medford coach Dennis Murphy, who added that Kyle Singler never took any mercy on his younger brother. And E.J. Singler never backed down, either.

"I learned a lot of stuff being that kind of player," E.J. Singler said. "A lot of kids haven't done that. I moved up by my senior year and knew I had to be the man and lead the team." E.J. Singler, at 6-foot-6, is about two inches shorter than Kyle Singler. But the way they look -- their shot, the way they move, their rebounding instincts -- echo each other.

"They're very similar," Murphy said. "I would tell you, as I told (their father) Ed Singler in the fall, I think E.J. is actually a better shooter than Kyle."