The Ascension of Roy Williams

[dukelifer]

We all know that basketball is almost a religion in these parts. For most of my basketball watching life- Dean Smith has long been considered the beloved king of UNC basketball. The arena is named after him- he is the all-time leader in wins at UNC. But if Roy wins tomorrow- He will match Dean's NC count and has a very good chance of passing Dean before he is done. At some point, Roy will be the King and Smith's legacy may not be quite as bright. It is an interesting event we may be witnessing. The question are- will they rename the dome or simply create a new one in honor of Ol' Roy or will Ol' Roy step down before he overshadows his beloved mentor? Only time will tell.

[eddiehaskell]

Roy may pass him in NCs, but it's hard to imagine him overshadowing Dean. Dean is essentially UNC's coach K. He also coached 15 years when only 1 team per conference made the tournament.

[Icarus09]

Roy may pass him in NCs, but it's hard to imagine him overshadowing Dean. Dean is essentially UNC's coach K. He also coached 15 years when only 1 team per conference made the tournament.

Agreed. Smith put UNC on the map in a big way. Roy came into an already well-established program that was merely suffering from some incompetent coaching.

[dukemsu]

I'm not in the Triangle so I'm not really sure about this, but isn't Roy just basically viewed as Dean's proxy? I think he's viewed as that by lots of people nationally. Other than crying frequently and being an avid consumer of Coca-Cola, what do people really know about Ol' Roy? Carolina is, was, and for the forseeable future will be Dean's program.

Duke will have the same issue whenever K decides to call it a day, particularlly if the hire comes within the family.\.

dukemsu

[Billy Dat]

I'd be very happy to have that issue....K's replacement keeping the golden age rolling. Whatever you think of Roy, you have to hand it to the guy, he's one of the greats.

[dukemsu]

I'd be very happy to have that issue....K's replacement keeping the golden age rolling. Whatever you think of Roy, you have to hand it to the guy, he's one of the greats.

Agreed. Just saying that his UNC persona is basically that of Roy's #1 son.

He probably wouldn't want to be known solely for his KU persona. The crescendo of Can't Win The Big One was getting mighty loud before the Cookie Monster and crew won in 05. The secondary break is an old concept he has elevated to an art form. Most coaches don't have something like that to hang their hat on.

dukemsu

[callaway]

I have always said that Roy Williams is the only person to be Dean's assistant coach TWICE :)

[weezie]

.....will they rename the dome or simply create a new one in honor of Ol' Roy or will Ol' Roy step down before he overshadows his beloved mentor?

It's been a while since I ventured into the Dean dome, is the court named after Dean? How about Ol'Roy Court in Dean's Palace.
Ol'Roy stepping down to avoid overshadowing his mentor?! :D That's a good one....best laugh I've had tonight.

[dukelifer]

Roy may pass him in NCs, but it's hard to imagine him overshadowing Dean. Dean is essentially UNC's coach K. He also coached 15 years when only 1 team per conference made the tournament.
I would not be so sure. If Roy brings home four - I think Dean is out and the Dome is Roy's. Four may be tough with Cal at Kentucky now- but Roy will be in the hunt the next few seasons.

[davekay1971]

Let's hope by tomorrow the Huckleberry Hound NC count still stands at 1.

[superdave]

Roy Williams is a great recruiter, really great. A really good x/o coach, but not a great one. But he walked into the head coaching positions at two of the top 5 basketball programs ever.

He never had to build a program, never worried about people not returning his calls. There's plenty of reasons to like him and dislike him, but an originator or innovator he is not.

For that, Dean Smith is a better coach I believe. But Roy should go down as a top 10 coach in college history if not a little better.

Super "Friggin!" Dave

[Reddevil]

Dean Smith is in the Paul Bunyan category. As much as it pains me to say it, he is basketball's grandson. Bonds may have the numbers, but he will never be in the Hank/Babe category. Deano changed the way the game was played. Growing up in that era, a unc game did not start until there were 4 minutes left, and they were down by 10....and they nearly always pulled it out. You knew you were watching a legend even then. Like them or loathe them, it was special. Legends cannot be replaced. Even Hank's accomplishments don't override Ruth's. They are both on baseball's Mt. Rushmore. Roy is having a nice run, and a hof career, but time will tell if he joins the giants - not just numbers. Either way, it will not diminish Smith.

Oh, and when K ties and surpasses Rupp with NC's 4 & 5, Rupp will still be relevant.

[Grey Devil]

Dean Smith is in the Paul Bunyan category. As much as it pains me to say it, he is basketball's grandson. Bonds may have the numbers, but he will never be in the Hank/Babe category. Deano changed the way the game was played. Growing up in that era, a unc game did not start until there were 4 minutes left, and they were down by 10....and they nearly always pulled it out. You knew you were watching a legend even then. Like them or loathe them, it was special. Legends cannot be replaced. Even Hank's accomplishments don't override Ruth's. They are both on baseball's Mt. Rushmore. Roy is having a nice run, and a hof career, but time will tell if he joins the giants - not just numbers. Either way, it will not diminish Smith.

Oh, and when K ties and surpasses Rupp with NC's 4 & 5, Rupp will still be relevant.

I was just telling my wife the other day that Dean was a much better in-game coach than ol' Roy. The adjustments he would make based on game situations was masterful. You could never count out a Dean Smith-coached team even when they were down a lot with time running out. That's why his legacy will stand the test of time. Roy, on the other hand seems to have only one adjustment when his team is behind....try to amp up the speed even more. It has worked for him most of the time, but IMO not as often as Dean's adjustments would. Just look at recent (within in the last few years) big losses Roy's teams have had. I'd like to know what substantive adjustments (other than cranking it up more) that he made that could have helped his teams win.

Grey Devil

[Aziggazoomba]

It's nice to read such a series of vitriol-free posts by Dukefolk on this subject. One might have expected a good bit more bile and bitterness.

I understand this site has the reputation of hosting intelligent and polite conversation on Duke basketball. Sure, everyone has their moments (and the effects of human frailty can occasionally pollute any institution), but for what its worth, this strikes me a great example of why that nice reputation is so well-deserved.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

We all know that basketball is almost a religion in these parts. For most of my basketball watching life- Dean Smith has long been considered the beloved king of UNC basketball. The arena is named after him- he is the all-time leader in wins at UNC. But if Roy wins tomorrow- He will match Dean's NC count and has a very good chance of passing Dean before he is done. At some point, Roy will be the King and Smith's legacy may not be quite as bright. It is an interesting event we may be witnessing. The question are- will they rename the dome or simply create a new one in honor of Ol' Roy or will Ol' Roy step down before he overshadows his beloved mentor? Only time will tell.

The nature of the legacy of each coach is rather different and each legacy encompasses more than overall records or number of national championships.

When I think of Dean Smith's legacy, I think not only of his in game coaching skills..... the quality most people focus on these days...... but also I think of his innovations which continue to today. (Numbering the positions is one example.)

If one were to consider the legacy of Coach Bubas in this sort of conversation, one would have to give him credit for his innovations which are still part of college basketball. (Dividing up the country into regions and assigning staff members for recruiting assignments would be one example.) Though he didn't win a national championship, he's left a strong legacy in other ways.

[dukelifer]

Dean Smith is in the Paul Bunyan category. As much as it pains me to say it, he is basketball's grandson. Bonds may have the numbers, but he will never be in the Hank/Babe category. Deano changed the way the game was played. Growing up in that era, a unc game did not start until there were 4 minutes left, and they were down by 10....and they nearly always pulled it out. You knew you were watching a legend even then. Like them or loathe them, it was special. Legends cannot be replaced. Even Hank's accomplishments don't override Ruth's. They are both on baseball's Mt. Rushmore. Roy is having a nice run, and a hof career, but time will tell if he joins the giants - not just numbers. Either way, it will not diminish Smith.

Oh, and when K ties and surpasses Rupp with NC's 4 & 5, Rupp will still be relevant.


It is rare that one giant takes over another. It has happened in professional sports on a few occasions, but it is rare. Lets look at the teams with more than 3 NCs in their history- shall we? Wooden will always be King at UCLA. No coach will break his mark there. K will likely be King at Duke for many, many decades if not forever. I doubt Cal will overtake Rupp given that several years he will be on probation- so Rupp is safe. Knight should be safe for a long long while at Indiana. Self at Kansas has a lot of work in front of him- but there is no King there. But the Dean and Roy situation is very unique - I must say. Only Indiana has had two coaches with 2 or more NCs. (I am pretty sure this true). But there was a long separation between the two. Roy was Dean's guy and very likely he will join him with 2NC's tonight and he could easily get one more before he is done. This is unique in college bball- perhaps in Sports. And if Roy gets four (which is clearly not a given)- I think Dean's luster will have to fade. Roy will enter rare air should that come to pass. Roy has already heard that he won the first with another coaches recruits. Now he is hearing that anyone could coach these guys to a championship and that he did not build the program in the first place. This can only motivate the guy more. But I would say that Roy is very likely to surpass his mentor and with it will come some very mixed feelings from a lot of folks- because they still remember Smith and some still think it is still Smith's program. You just have to wonder what Roy is thinking right now.

[jipops]

While I believe Roy to be an excellent coach I just don't see him as some basketball mastermind as others already in the pantheon. Featherston wrote an article some time ago about program builders and program sustainers. Obviously guys like K and Dean are program builders. Though UNC and Duke had enjoyed some success before these coaches, they were not the powerhouses they eventually became. Other examples would be Calhoun, Lute Olsen, John Thompson, Boheim, Knight amid others. Roy is an example of a guy who steps into a big time established program and keeps it going while recruiting extremely well. He did it at KU and he's doing it at UNC. But is Roy a guy that could just go to some mediocre or less than great program and make it a consistent power? This we'll never truly know.

Just my opinion but Roy doesn't seem to make discipline a big priority. There are just so many nuances of the game that just get let go that you would never see Dean tolerate. But that just may be a difference in style.

Obviously Roy has been very successful and will continue to be so being at the type of program where recruiting is not too much of a challenge. Every coach needs to recruit well to win. Roy has no problem doing that. But when it comes to coaching the guys that are on the floor, there are other coaches I'd take before him if I had the privilege to pick.

[VAGentleman05]

You just have to wonder what Roy is thinking right now.

I think this is a pretty interesting topic, but I'm almost positive that it's not on Roy's radar (i.e. he's not thinking anything about it).

[RelativeWays]

Let's hope by tomorrow the Huckleberry Hound NC count still stands at 1.

Dagnabbit! Those Spartans, they are some tough rascals, I declare.

Ol' Roy will never surpass Dean's legacy but he really doesn't need to. He just has to carve out his own niche of success in the UNC program and, like him or not, he's doing a good job. I'm more interest to see how Roy handles being the top dog (or he would say dawg) in the ACC after K retires. Dean and K were (are) pretty subtle with their gamesmenship, learning how to work the media, opposing coaches and teams, adversaries and detractors. Roy is still a bit too blunt and tends to rely on his aww shucks country bumpkin persona too much, but he'll learn. He's been giving us fits for the last 4 years, but overall the ACC is a better conference with him in it. We could use a couple more big timers, honestly.

[dukelifer]

I think this is a pretty interesting topic, but I'm almost positive that it's not on Roy's radar (i.e. he's not thinking anything about it).

Well - perhaps not at this moment. But this will sink at some point. Should he not win- he will be thinking about a lot more!

[Heelo]

overall the ACC is a better conference with him in it. We could use a couple more big timers, honestly.

I was really hoping that UVa would have ended up with Tubby, and that NCST had been wiser/more desperate and had made a run at Pitino pre-Louisville.

With Gary doing just enough to keep his job at UMd, UVa being apparently resigned to failure (in both football and basketball), and NCST having dropped off the map for the past quarter century, the ACC just isn't what it used to be.

[Billy Dat]

I'm more interest to see how Roy handles being the top dog (or he would say dawg) in the ACC after K retires.

They are only 3 years apart in age...I wonder how long Roy will be around after K hangs it up, or if he won't hang it up first. I am hopeful that K will stick around for a while, unless USA Basketball offers him Jerry Colangelo's job.

[Waynne]

Ol' Roy is a good coach but not a great one, and he must be feeling some pressure about tonight's game. Izzo is a great coach and if the game is close there is a significant chance Williams will be out-coached in front of a national audience. I'm sure ol' Roy is not dwelling on that thought, but it may be lurking like a nightmare in the back of his mind. Go Spartans!

[rsvman]

Agree that Izzo is probably a better in-game coach than Ol' Roy. That's not necessarily a slam to Ol' Roy as much as it's a kudo to Izzo. (I personally think Izzo's a better in-game coach than Coach K, too, but that's another issue.)

Roy will never replace Dean in the UNC hierarchy, even if he (God forbid) wins 3 or 4 more national titles, for reasons that have been clearly outlined by other posters.

Oh, and.... Go Spartans!