PDA

View Full Version : Indicative of "The Problem?"



tommy
04-03-2009, 06:26 PM
In reading the article on what will become of the Memphis transfers, which is a link off of the main page article on the Arizona situation, I was struck by a line uttered by CJ Henry, brother of stud Memphis recruit Xavier Henry:

Its up in the air. Hes open to anybody, C.J. said. He just said he will open it up. He may end up at Duke, he added, laughing.

Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion and it indicates nothing. But it struck a nerve with me because he laughed at the prospect of Xavier ending up at Duke. (I certainly don't think he was serious as I haven't heard or read of any interest by either party.) It seems that he was laughing precisely because the idea of his brother going to Duke is so preposterous.

Unless it's an academic issue, why is it preposterous that Xavier would want to go to Duke? I have had a growing sense, and I think others on this board have as well, that there is an increasing feeling out there among top recruits that Duke is just not where you want to be. Yes, we have continued to successfully recruit many good players. I acknowledge that, and that obviously not all top players feel this way. But it seems to me that this comment is symptomatic of a feeling among many of the stud recruits that Duke is yesterday, it is conservative, corporate, buttoned-up, white. That it's just not cool. And they certainly notice that we haven't enjoyed the type of postseason success that we used to.

I think Duke is perceived by a lot of these kids kind of like a woman who was a real hottie when she was 21, and tons of fun. Well, she's 38 now. She can still bring it on occasion, but she's drooping a little in some key areas, and so if you're a young guy, why go there when there are lots of other options?

Maybe I'm wrong about this. But if I'm not, it's a real concern. These types of perceptions are years in the making, and consequently they are very difficult to reverse. It can be done, but it wouldn't be easy at all. These are kids, after all, and perception is often reality.

Virginian
04-03-2009, 06:48 PM
In reading the article on what will become of the Memphis transfers, which is a link off of the main page article on the Arizona situation, I was struck by a line uttered by CJ Henry, brother of stud Memphis recruit Xavier Henry:

Its up in the air. Hes open to anybody, C.J. said. He just said he will open it up. He may end up at Duke, he added, laughing.

Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion and it indicates nothing. But it struck a nerve with me because he laughed at the prospect of Xavier ending up at Duke. (I certainly don't think he was serious as I haven't heard or read of any interest by either party.) It seems that he was laughing precisely because the idea of his brother going to Duke is so preposterous.

Unless it's an academic issue, why is it preposterous that Xavier would want to go to Duke? I have had a growing sense, and I think others on this board have as well, that there is an increasing feeling out there among top recruits that Duke is just not where you want to be. Yes, we have continued to successfully recruit many good players. I acknowledge that, and that obviously not all top players feel this way. But it seems to me that this comment is symptomatic of a feeling among many of the stud recruits that Duke is yesterday, it is conservative, corporate, buttoned-up, white. That it's just not cool. And they certainly notice that we haven't enjoyed the type of postseason success that we used to.

I think Duke is perceived by a lot of these kids kind of like a woman who was a real hottie when she was 21, and tons of fun. Well, she's 38 now. She can still bring it on occasion, but she's drooping a little in some key areas, and so if you're a young guy, why go there when there are lots of other options?

Maybe I'm wrong about this. But if I'm not, it's a real concern. These types of perceptions are years in the making, and consequently they are very difficult to reverse. It can be done, but it wouldn't be easy at all. These are kids, after all, and perception is often reality.

It seems to me that these kids all see the NBA players as gods. They MUST have heard the ones who were on the gold medal team, Kobe and the rest (who are HUGE role models for every high school player), praise Coach K to the heavens for the last two or three years. Why would any of us think that the average high school prospect would have any disdain for or concern about playing for Duke?

Of course they may think it's not a great match for them personally, but I don't see why we should think this is a universal situation.

If that's really a problem, I'd like to see some real indication of it, which this quote -- which can be interpreted all sorts of ways -- in all likelihood is not.

roywhite
04-03-2009, 07:01 PM
In our best days, we didn't recruit or get interest from all the top 10 or top 20 prospects.

UNC or Kansas or Memphi-tucky will always get players. We just need our share of top players to compete for championships. We're coming off a 30-win season and recruiting for 2009 and 2010 both look good.

I don't make much of comments like those of the original post.

houstondukie
04-03-2009, 07:02 PM
In reading the article on what will become of the Memphis transfers, which is a link off of the main page article on the Arizona situation, I was struck by a line uttered by CJ Henry, brother of stud Memphis recruit Xavier Henry:

Its up in the air. Hes open to anybody, C.J. said. He just said he will open it up. He may end up at Duke, he added, laughing.

Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion and it indicates nothing. But it struck a nerve with me because he laughed at the prospect of Xavier ending up at Duke. (I certainly don't think he was serious as I haven't heard or read of any interest by either party.) It seems that he was laughing precisely because the idea of his brother going to Duke is so preposterous.

Unless it's an academic issue, why is it preposterous that Xavier would want to go to Duke? I have had a growing sense, and I think others on this board have as well, that there is an increasing feeling out there among top recruits that Duke is just not where you want to be. Yes, we have continued to successfully recruit many good players. I acknowledge that, and that obviously not all top players feel this way. But it seems to me that this comment is symptomatic of a feeling among many of the stud recruits that Duke is yesterday, it is conservative, corporate, buttoned-up, white. That it's just not cool. And they certainly notice that we haven't enjoyed the type of postseason success that we used to.

I think Duke is perceived by a lot of these kids kind of like a woman who was a real hottie when she was 21, and tons of fun. Well, she's 38 now. She can still bring it on occasion, but she's drooping a little in some key areas, and so if you're a young guy, why go there when there are lots of other options?

Maybe I'm wrong about this. But if I'm not, it's a real concern. These types of perceptions are years in the making, and consequently they are very difficult to reverse. It can be done, but it wouldn't be easy at all. These are kids, after all, and perception is often reality.

I would have agreed with you a couple of years ago, but you're underestimating how much "cooler" Coach K became after he coached Team USA to the gold medal. Those NBA players, who are idolized by these recruits, love Coach K.

dukelifer
04-03-2009, 07:09 PM
In reading the article on what will become of the Memphis transfers, which is a link off of the main page article on the Arizona situation, I was struck by a line uttered by CJ Henry, brother of stud Memphis recruit Xavier Henry:

Its up in the air. Hes open to anybody, C.J. said. He just said he will open it up. He may end up at Duke, he added, laughing.

Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion and it indicates nothing.

Well I would imagine that this is linked to the recruitment of John Wall- another Memphis recruit and the supposed number 1 PG in the land who is considering Duke and someone Duke is considering. So perhaps he was simply suggesting that with the late addition of Wall and Henry- Duke might be looking to make some noise.

chrisheery
04-03-2009, 07:24 PM
that Duke would be the next best thing going, but he was laughing because everyone knows the kid is going to end up at UK. Perhaps he was just laughing because the idea of it "being open" is absurd and he and the rest of the sports media are in on the joke, but there is no rule about how silly it is that a coach can pick and choose between two full recruiting classes.

turnandburn55
04-03-2009, 09:24 PM
If Xavier Henry had said he had "no desire to talk to, to be involved with, to visit, to contemplate in any shape, form or fashion" playing for Coach K.

http://prepinsiders.blogspot.com/2009/04/highly-recruited-point-guard-hears-from.html

Let's not overanalyze...

Owen Meany
04-03-2009, 11:53 PM
This is a unique situation in which your concerns can be answered pretty directly. Just look at the SI Coaches Poll thread. I will take the libery of repeating the first post here, because it directly refutes any notion that today's players don't want to play for Coach K.

SI took a poll from the players of the 64 teams who made it to the tourney to see which coach they would most like to play for, besides there own.

Guess who was number 1?

The rankings were as follows

Coach K.........20%
Pitino............16%
Ol' Roy..........13%
Boeheim........8%
Calipari.........8%

Jim Calhoun finished with only 3% of the votes.

So the players in this years tournament actually chose Coach K as the Coach who they would most want to play for. I think this is pretty remarkable, particularly given the media presentation of Duke and its supposed "decline". Coach K is even 50% higher than Ol' Roy, who is absolutely at his career peak thus far. So I think this proves that Henry's comments don't reflect the mindset of the general college basketball player/recruit.


I would venture to guess that Henry's comments reflect more on him than they do on Duke or Coach K. Memphis and Duke don't generally recruit the same players. So it doesn't surprise me that Henry might joke about his brother ending up at Duke. He may find it laughable to think that he would be interested in Duke or vice versa. But obviously many other recruits feel otherwise.

JG Nothing
04-04-2009, 12:28 AM
This is a unique situation in which your concerns can be answered pretty directly. Just look at the SI Coaches Poll thread. I will take the libery of repeating the first post here, because it directly refutes any notion that today's players don't want to play for Coach K.

SI took a poll from the players of the 64 teams who made it to the tourney to see which coach they would most like to play for, besides there own.

Guess who was number 1?

The rankings were as follows

Coach K.........20%
Pitino............16%
Ol' Roy..........13%
Boeheim........8%
Calipari.........8%

Jim Calhoun finished with only 3% of the votes.

So the players in this years tournament actually chose Coach K as the Coach who they would most want to play for. I think this is pretty remarkable, particularly given the media presentation of Duke and its supposed "decline". Coach K is even 50% higher than Ol' Roy, who is absolutely at his career peak thus far. So I think this proves that Henry's comments don't reflect the mindset of the general college basketball player/recruit.


I would venture to guess that Henry's comments reflect more on him than they do on Duke or Coach K. Memphis and Duke don't generally recruit the same players. So it doesn't surprise me that Henry might joke about his brother ending up at Duke. He may find it laughable to think that he would be interested in Duke or vice versa. But obviously many other recruits feel otherwise.

Two things. (1) K may have come in first in the poll, but four out of five respondents preferred to play for someone else. (2) Playing for K is not neccesarily equivalent to playing at Duke University.

Kewlswim
04-04-2009, 01:00 AM
Two things. (1) K may have come in first in the poll, but four out of five respondents preferred to play for someone else. (2) Playing for K is not neccesarily equivalent to playing at Duke University.

Hi,

Talk about the glass half empty! I think one can look at the negatives to death. Duke is about to get two McDonald's All Americans and the most desired transfer student is headed our way. We have a team chock full of players most other programs would want in a heart-beat. WE JUST WON 30 GAMES and the ACC TOURNAMENT. We went to the Sweet 16 and lost to a team that was both hot and matched up well with us. My goodness, now nobody wants to play for us and the sky is falling and Duke is not the same as Coach K, etc. etc.? In most people's minds Coach K and Duke are inextricably linked. Relax. Great players are coming to play for the Devils. One or two or three or ten misses in the recruiting wars don't mean the program is necessarily in decline. Back in the day we missed out on Bill Walton. Having him would have been great, I think the Devils have done pretty well in the years since Bill played.

GO DUKE!

JG Nothing
04-04-2009, 01:20 AM
Hi,

Talk about the glass half empty! I think one can look at the negatives to death. Duke is about to get two McDonald's All Americans and the most desired transfer student is headed our way. We have a team chock full of players most other programs would want in a heart-beat. WE JUST WON 30 GAMES and the ACC TOURNAMENT. We went to the Sweet 16 and lost to a team that was both hot and matched up well with us. My goodness, now nobody wants to play for us and the sky is falling and Duke is not the same as Coach K, etc. etc.? In most people's minds Coach K and Duke are inextricably linked. Relax. Great players are coming to play for the Devils. One or two or three or ten misses in the recruiting wars don't mean the program is necessarily in decline. Back in the day we missed out on Bill Walton. Having him would have been great, I think the Devils have done pretty well in the years since Bill played.

GO DUKE!

I never said or suggested that the glass is half empty, nobody wants to play for us, or the sky is falling. I merely implied that the survey does not mean there is any general "mindset" of players one way or another towards K.

Yes, K and Duke basketball are inextricably linked. In the abstract, however, playing basketball for K and being a student at Duke are two different things. A lot of people may want to play for K, but being a student at Duke is not for everyone and that is an undeniable fact.

Finally, there is no doubt that Duke gets great players. I have never complained about K's recruiting record on this BBS. For the most part, we get great players that want to be Duke students. I hope that trend continues, particularly the second part.

mo.st.dukie
04-04-2009, 02:11 AM
I definitely think that most recruits have a negative perception of Duke. Coach Collins said in a recent article that when the staff meets with a recruit the first thing they have to do is discuss what life at Duke is like, dispelling all the myths. John Wall even said that his perception of Duke had changed after meeting with Coach K and it seems like Clifton has changed his views after the meeting. It all really started blowing up during J.J.'s senior year, Duke's always been hated but during the 06 and 07 campaigns is when IMO the perceptions of Duke among high school players took a nasty turn and resulted in us missing on some top prospects. I do think landing John Wall could change that though.

SMO
04-04-2009, 07:15 AM
Two things. (1) K may have come in first in the poll, but four out of five respondents preferred to play for someone else. (2) Playing for K is not neccesarily equivalent to playing at Duke University.

I'm sure folks in the Obama administration felt similarly since they didn't win the presidency by a unanimous vote.:p

BD80
04-04-2009, 08:34 AM
... kind of like a woman who was a real hottie when she was 21, and tons of fun. Well, she's 38 now. ...

The list of ladies that are 38+ that can REALLY bring it is long and distinguished. Like my... (Sorry, a Top Gun flashback - an old but highly quotable movie)

Maybe it is my own experience, but the smart kids would be jumping on the experienced alternative - they could learn so much more and have a MUCH better experience. Mmmm, that's a lot of experience... and my point.

Coach K is still the HOT pick and can offer so much more than the sexy but shallow alternatives. Who else has coached with the creator of the fastest and most popular offense in the NBA? Who coached Lebron, Kobe, Melo and Dwyane and made it work well?

The hot 21 year old can become frumpy by age 22. The hot 38 year old is the real deal!

Devilsfan
04-04-2009, 08:42 AM
I caution you! NEVER underestimate Coach K when he makes up his mind to accomplish anything. He is recruiting (starting with his '10 class) with a passion of old.

miramar
04-04-2009, 09:38 AM
I don't think Duke is where everybody wants to be, but I don't think any other school is either. Forty years ago everybody did not want to go to UCLA and it certainly didn't hurt them.

The important thing for recruiting is whether the program can recruit three very good players per year on average. If you can recruit two McDonald's, then you are doing very well, so let's look at the Burger Boys from the last four graduating classes:

2002: Sean Dockery, Shavlik Randolph, J. J. Redick, (Michael Thompson)
2003: Luol Deng, (Kris Humphreys)
2004: DeMarcus Nelson, (Shaun Livingston)
2005: (Eric Boateng), Josh McRoberts, Greg Paulus

That's 11 in four years, which is extraordinary, but in parentheses are two who didn't show up at all, and two who left quickly without having contributed much. Shavlik left after three tough years and Deng surprised everyone by leaving after one productive season. McRoberts left after only two years leaving a lot of problems in his wake. So only Dockery, Redick, Nelson, and Paulus stayed for four years, but we can say that only J.J. lived up to expectations.

So I would say that the problem is not recruiting, but a down cycle where many top recruits simply didn't pan out, didn't show up, or only showed up for a cup of coffee. Fortunately, Henderson, Scheyer, Thomas, Singler, Smith, and Williams have helped to turn that around (King, not so much). I would expect the same from Plumlee and Kelly, so I think the situation is resolving itself.

Much of our frustration probably comes from the fact that because of this down cycle, for several years the team seemed to have been missing one key player inside, and then to make things worse we would come up short when we recruited power players such as Patterson, Echenique, and Monroe. We still won't have a bruiser in the middle next year, but we will have four players 6-10 and up, so we should be much better off than we have been since Shelden graduated. No matter what, next year's team will be very talented and should be very successful.

jv001
04-04-2009, 10:02 AM
I caution you! NEVER underestimate Coach K when he makes up his mind to accomplish anything. He is recruiting (starting with his '10 class) with a passion of old.

Coach K takes to challenges like no other coach. Don't tell him he can't do something. I firmly believe he has changed his recruiting strategy. After recent losses, he seems to be recruiting multiple players for the same position. As for the Duke perception, you would have to be hiding your head in the sand if you don't think that some of these high school players have preset thoughts about Duke being a preppy, mostly white school with mostly white players. They then look at the NBA and see just the opposite. Coach K has added Nate and C-Well to our coaching staff. That will help in destroying the perception but nothing will help like landing some players like Wall, Knight and our 3 recruits for 2010. Coach K will always be successful and Duke will win their fair share of games. Go Duke!

slower
04-04-2009, 10:05 AM
I don't think Duke is where everybody wants to be, but I don't think any other school is either. Forty years ago everybody did not want to go to UCLA and it certainly didn't hurt them.

The important thing for recruiting is whether the program can recruit three very good players per year on average. If you can recruit two McDonald's, then you are doing very well, so let's look at the Burger Boys from the last four graduating classes:

2002: Sean Dockery, Shavlik Randolph, J. J. Redick, (Michael Thompson)
2003: Luol Deng, (Kris Humphreys)
2004: DeMarcus Nelson, (Shaun Livingston)
2005: (Eric Boateng), Josh McRoberts, Greg Paulus

That's 11 in four years, which is extraordinary, but in parentheses are two who didn't show up at all, and two who left quickly without having contributed much. Shavlik left after three tough years and Deng surprised everyone by leaving after one productive season. McRoberts left after only two years leaving a lot of problems in his wake. So only Dockery, Redick, Nelson, and Paulus stayed for four years, but we can say that only J.J. lived up to expectations.

So I would say that the problem is not recruiting, but a down cycle where many top recruits simply didn't pan out, didn't show up, or only showed up for a cup of coffee. Fortunately, Henderson, Scheyer, Thomas, Singler, Smith, and Williams have helped to turn that around (King, not so much). I would expect the same from Plumlee and Kelly, so I think the situation is resolving itself.

Much of our frustration probably comes from the fact that because of this down cycle, for several years the team seemed to have been missing one key player inside, and then to make things worse we would come up short when we recruited power players such as Patterson, Echenique, and Monroe. We still won't have a bruiser in the middle next year, but we will have four players 6-10 and up, so we should be much better off than we have been since Shelden graduated. No matter what, next year's team will be very talented and should be very successful.

that UNC has been knocking it out of the park lately, recruiting- and performance-wise. You can offer any and all rebuttals to this statement, but in your hearts, you know it's true. But I believe that the pendulum will start to swing our way again (not necessarily that UNC will decline - because I don't think they will - but that our seemingly insatiable appetite for mega-success will be better sated in the near future).

Kewlswim
04-04-2009, 11:24 AM
that UNC has been knocking it out of the park lately, recruiting- and performance-wise. You can offer any and all rebuttals to this statement, but in your hearts, you know it's true. But I believe that the pendulum will start to swing our way again (not necessarily that UNC will decline - because I don't think they will - but that our seemingly insatiable appetite for mega-success will be better sated in the near future).

Hi,

I firmly believe that USA Olympics is what got in Coach K's way. He was simply spread too thin. Look at Tara VanDeVeer at Stanford, she coaches Olympics and her Stanford team goes nowhere *yes I know she took a year off from the team all together* she returns with that behind her and it takes a couple of seasons to rev everything back up and now she is back with a vengeance. Good luck in the Final Four Cardinal (ladies) BEAT UCONN.

GO DUKE!

miramar
04-04-2009, 11:49 AM
Hi,

I firmly believe that USA Olympics is what got in Coach K's way. He was simply spread too thin. Look at Tara VanDeVeer at Stanford, she coaches Olympics and her Stanford team goes nowhere *yes I know she took a year off from the team all together* she returns with that behind her and it takes a couple of seasons to rev everything back up and now she is back with a vengeance. Good luck in the Final Four Cardinal (ladies) BEAT UCONN.

GO DUKE!

That's certainly very possible for this year's freshman class. The sophomores and juniors were very solid and carried the team, while the seniors were the #1 rated class at the time, although a lot of things happened on the way.

But if you look at the freshman, Miles basically fell in our lap, while Williams was a very late and very fortunate pickup. For a while there our only recruit was Olek, who I hope will become a very productive player, but you have to wonder if the staff would have gotten more players early if they hadn't been so busy.

3rd Dukie
04-04-2009, 12:01 PM
In reading the article on what will become of the Memphis transfers, which is a link off of the main page article on the Arizona situation, I was struck by a line uttered by CJ Henry, brother of stud Memphis recruit Xavier Henry:

Its up in the air. Hes open to anybody, C.J. said. He just said he will open it up. He may end up at Duke, he added, laughing.

Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion and it indicates nothing. But it struck a nerve with me because he laughed at the prospect of Xavier ending up at Duke. (I certainly don't think he was serious as I haven't heard or read of any interest by either party.) It seems that he was laughing precisely because the idea of his brother going to Duke is so preposterous.

Unless it's an academic issue, why is it preposterous that Xavier would want to go to Duke? I have had a growing sense, and I think others on this board have as well, that there is an increasing feeling out there among top recruits that Duke is just not where you want to be. Yes, we have continued to successfully recruit many good players. I acknowledge that, and that obviously not all top players feel this way. But it seems to me that this comment is symptomatic of a feeling among many of the stud recruits that Duke is yesterday, it is conservative, corporate, buttoned-up, white. That it's just not cool. And they certainly notice that we haven't enjoyed the type of postseason success that we used to.

I think Duke is perceived by a lot of these kids kind of like a woman who was a real hottie when she was 21, and tons of fun. Well, she's 38 now. She can still bring it on occasion, but she's drooping a little in some key areas, and so if you're a young guy, why go there when there are lots of other options?

Maybe I'm wrong about this. But if I'm not, it's a real concern. These types of perceptions are years in the making, and consequently they are very difficult to reverse. It can be done, but it wouldn't be easy at all. These are kids, after all, and perception is often reality.

I have no idea if your concerns are well-founded or not. However, I would not underestimate the academics factor.

Regardless, you raise a very valid point.

wilko
04-04-2009, 12:11 PM
The headline thru me.

This movie has always stuck with me http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073706/ where they refer to "the problem" vaguely and often. Its odd, quirky, but seemingly over half the movie teases and talks about "the problem". You follow couples, nice looking females, in the story and by the time they get to the big reveal of what the problem actually is.... you are watching a she-male have corrective surgery to be more she and less he..... they gotta put a warning like that on the box... thats just not right..

That said, I hope the can overcome their problems and play for Duke.

bjornolf
04-04-2009, 12:58 PM
Hi,

I firmly believe that USA Olympics is what got in Coach K's way. He was simply spread too thin.

GO DUKE!

I agree. That was my first thought when reading this thread. Being a college coach is MORE than a full time job. Being the national team coach is an almost full time job. For K and his staff to coach team USA while coaching Duke... well, there's just no way for them to give 100% to Duke. Now that he and his staff are done with team USA, I have no doubt that Duke will be back on track.

Atlanta Duke
04-04-2009, 01:22 PM
Two things. (1) K may have come in first in the poll, but four out of five respondents preferred to play for someone else. (2) Playing for K is not neccesarily equivalent to playing at Duke University.

Agree that wanting to play for K is not the same as wanting to play at Duke. The lax mess in 2006 fanned the media flames on Duke being a great place to be as long as you are an arrogant upper middle class (or rich) white guy.

Recruiting against that stereotype has to be tough.

SMO
04-04-2009, 07:03 PM
that UNC has been knocking it out of the park lately, recruiting- and performance-wise. You can offer any and all rebuttals to this statement, but in your hearts, you know it's true. But I believe that the pendulum will start to swing our way again (not necessarily that UNC will decline - because I don't think they will - but that our seemingly insatiable appetite for mega-success will be better sated in the near future).

Recruiting-wise I agree, but performance-wise I'm not so sure. "In my heart" and everywhere else, they were a favorite to win it all each of the last 2 seasons and fell short. If they don't win it this year their season will be viewed as a failure (fair or not).

slower
04-04-2009, 08:55 PM
Recruiting-wise I agree, but performance-wise I'm not so sure. "In my heart" and everywhere else, they were a favorite to win it all each of the last 2 seasons and fell short. If they don't win it this year their season will be viewed as a failure (fair or not).

the fact that they HAVE been the favorite the past two years and the fact that they HAVE made it to the Final Four the past two years IS, in my book, a pretty good definition of knocking it out of the park.

Virginian
04-04-2009, 09:32 PM
Two things. (1) K may have come in first in the poll, but four out of five respondents preferred to play for someone else. (2) Playing for K is not neccesarily equivalent to playing at Duke University.

We don't need four out of five great high school players; we just need one out of five great players.

As for Number 2 -- of course playing for K is equivalent to playing at Duke. If you want to play for K, you play at Duke. Right?

NYDukie
04-04-2009, 09:41 PM
How much you want to bet that in about 5 years we will all be asking, "Xavier Henry who????"

pfrduke
04-04-2009, 10:40 PM
The headline thru me.

This movie has always stuck with me http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073706/ where they refer to "the problem" vaguely and often. Its odd, quirky, but seemingly over half the movie teases and talks about "the problem". You follow couples, nice looking females, in the story and by the time they get to the big reveal of what the problem actually is.... you are watching a she-male have corrective surgery to be more she and less he..... they gotta put a warning like that on the box... thats just not right..

That said, I hope the can overcome their problems and play for Duke.

Um, wha??????

Scorp4me
04-04-2009, 10:46 PM
Every day I come on here I see more and more outrageous ideas from some of you people. I could go on and on with the over the top expectations some of you have. In fact I did before deleting it all. It ain't worth it. Some of you are simply crazy!

I almost think it'd be worth it to have a '95 season every now and then. Just to shed a few fans.

JG Nothing
04-05-2009, 03:52 AM
We don't need four out of five great high school players; we just need one out of five great players.

As for Number 2 -- of course playing for K is equivalent to playing at Duke. If you want to play for K, you play at Duke. Right?

My first point was simply that you cannot infer too much from the survey. Regardless, we get great players all the time (who we can be proud of). How many McDonald All-Americans do people want? My second point is that some people may want to play for K in the abstract, but not necessarily want to be Duke students.

Lulu
04-05-2009, 05:08 AM
My first impression when reading that he "laughed" as he mentioned Duke, was that he knew there had been a lot of talk floating around about Duke landing recruit/s we perhaps have no shot of getting, a.k.a. Wall.

Regarding Duke's perception, it seems to me that everyone is lumping all recruits into a single entity, when we should all know they are a mix of very different people. We all know that Duke has an image, and I'd bet we all pretty much agree on what that image is. There are just going to be some one-and-done players that laugh at the notion of going to Duke in that regard, because of the type of person that they are, their intent in having to spend a year in college, and the type of school Duke is. It sucks that schools like UNC probably don't suffer this same image, but that's life.

ice-9
04-05-2009, 06:36 AM
I don't think Duke is where everybody wants to be, but I don't think any other school is either. Forty years ago everybody did not want to go to UCLA and it certainly didn't hurt them.

The important thing for recruiting is whether the program can recruit three very good players per year on average. If you can recruit two McDonald's, then you are doing very well, so let's look at the Burger Boys from the last four graduating classes:

2002: Sean Dockery, Shavlik Randolph, J. J. Redick, (Michael Thompson)
2003: Luol Deng, (Kris Humphreys)
2004: DeMarcus Nelson, (Shaun Livingston)
2005: (Eric Boateng), Josh McRoberts, Greg Paulus

That's 11 in four years, which is extraordinary, but in parentheses are two who didn't show up at all, and two who left quickly without having contributed much. Shavlik left after three tough years and Deng surprised everyone by leaving after one productive season. McRoberts left after only two years leaving a lot of problems in his wake. So only Dockery, Redick, Nelson, and Paulus stayed for four years, but we can say that only J.J. lived up to expectations.

So I would say that the problem is not recruiting, but a down cycle where many top recruits simply didn't pan out, didn't show up, or only showed up for a cup of coffee. Fortunately, Henderson, Scheyer, Thomas, Singler, Smith, and Williams have helped to turn that around (King, not so much). I would expect the same from Plumlee and Kelly, so I think the situation is resolving itself.

Much of our frustration probably comes from the fact that because of this down cycle, for several years the team seemed to have been missing one key player inside, and then to make things worse we would come up short when we recruited power players such as Patterson, Echenique, and Monroe. We still won't have a bruiser in the middle next year, but we will have four players 6-10 and up, so we should be much better off than we have been since Shelden graduated. No matter what, next year's team will be very talented and should be very successful.


Is Shelden Williams missing up there?

I think your assessment regarding the four year players is a bit harsh; I'd argue Reddick exceeded expectations (by a MILE) whereas Nelson and Dockery met expectations. The only one who didn't meet expectations would be Paulus. Even then, I thought had a successful college career; just perhaps not to the degree expected from the #1 PG in his class.

SMO
04-05-2009, 07:20 AM
the fact that they HAVE been the favorite the past two years and the fact that they HAVE made it to the Final Four the past two years IS, in my book, a pretty good definition of knocking it out of the park.

I don't think most UNC fans would agree. Not that it's fair...their expectations are as high as anyone's.

jaimedun34
04-05-2009, 07:45 AM
I think there are a lot of high schooler players who don't know Duke or Coach K and just assume that what they hear from coaches, teammates, etc... is true. Even John Wall, in a recent article, said that when he sat down to talk to K, he learned that a lot of the things he was told about Duke simply were not true. We don't have anyone in the media that is willing to stick up for us aside from the occasional 'they play hard and are well coached'. Gottlieb refers to us as 'the floor slappers'.

It's just ignorance, really. And I'm not sure why this dude even brought up Duke. I don't ever remember Henry being recruited by us.

miramar
04-05-2009, 10:15 AM
Is Shelden Williams missing up there?

I think your assessment regarding the four year players is a bit harsh; I'd argue Reddick exceeded expectations (by a MILE) whereas Nelson and Dockery met expectations. The only one who didn't meet expectations would be Paulus. Even then, I thought had a successful college career; just perhaps not to the degree expected from the #1 PG in his class.

I only looked at the McDonald's players, but you are right about Shelden in the sense that IIRC, he was excluded from the squad only because of his particular legal situation, which fortunately was resolved. He was certainly good enough to be included on the team.

I guess it's a matter of opinion about the other two players, but I was expecting Dockery to score more than 5 PPG over his career, even though everyone knew he was not a great shooter coming in. The real shame was that his shooting improved gradually over his career, and then he simply lost his shot at the end of his senior year, as did Melchioni.

I personally loved Nelson as a player, especially on defense, but I think most people were expecting more points from the all-time leading scorer from the state of California. He had a hard time adjusting to the college game, probably because he was a power forward in a 6'0" frame, and so he had to develop an outside shot and change the way he attacked the basket (as I recall, he had a ton of shots blocked his first two years). But there's no question that he was very productive his junior and senior years at 14.1 and 14.5 PPG. So perhaps the real problem is that there wasn't a real go-to guy either the class above him (which didn't exist since Deng had already left) and in the class behind him (since McRoberts only scored 13.0 PPG his sophomore year, and then left).

slower
04-05-2009, 01:07 PM
I don't think most UNC fans would agree. Not that it's fair...their expectations are as high as anyone's.

The realistic level of expectation for most UNC fans is now "Final Four", whereas ours is "Sweet Sixteen". That's my original point - that the UNC program is currently performing at a higher level than ours, and THAT is what makes thing sting the most for many Duke fans.

IF UNC had been getting consistently knocked out on the first or second weekend, it would (for some people) make things easier to bear.

MADevil30
04-05-2009, 05:11 PM
I'm not sure why this dude even brought up Duke. I don't ever remember Henry being recruited by us.

Anyone else think that maybe this was his point all along and we're all just reading into this waaaaayyyy too much? He's saying the recruitment is open and he could end up anywhere, even a top program that has never recruited him in the past

Icarus09
04-05-2009, 05:45 PM
Anyone else think that maybe this was his point all along and we're all just reading into this waaaaayyyy too much? He's saying the recruitment is open and he could end up anywhere, even a top program that has never recruited him in the past

I'll agree with that, but we love hashing and rehashing tons of quotes, articles, etc., especially a peak recruiting time.

JDev
04-05-2009, 06:49 PM
Coach K has been working against the inherent recruiting advantage that places like UNC have since his came into the ACC. He has succeeded wildly in spite of those advantages. That being said, Duke is still a wonderful place to go to school and play basketball, and has some advantages of its own, most noteably K himself. Right now Duke is dealing with some misses and some other guys maybe not becoming exactly what was expected, but Duke will be fine and continues to recuit at a high level. If you need proof look at the still evolving 2010 class (not to mention the potential of the 09 signees).
When people look at UNC to compare, you need to keep in mind that what they have is basically three straight classes in which virtually every player met or exceeded expectations. I am not worried about Duke, with or without Wall (though with would be outstanding).

Kewlswim
04-05-2009, 08:00 PM
I'll agree with that, but we love hashing and rehashing tons of quotes, articles, etc., especially a peak recruiting time.

Hi,

Given that we hash and re-hash everything, do you happen to know how (or if) John Wall chews on a mouth guard?

GO DUKE!

Reddevil
04-06-2009, 09:48 AM
Duke is a cougar? Duke is Stifler's mom? Duke has never been for everybody, but it is the right fit for a few blue chips per year. Give the kids a break. They are not so dense that they are making their choices based on "coolness". Great school - check. Great coach - check. Coolness factor - 99% of games on TV, great conference, great rivalry, Olympic coach, best fans, NBA caliber program - yeah, pretty darn cool. Life is a sorting out process. Duke will attract great kids every year BECAUSE of its perception.

JimBD
04-06-2009, 10:31 AM
Duke is a cougar? Duke is Stifler's mom? Duke has never been for everybody, but it is the right fit for a few blue chips per year. Give the kids a break. They are not so dense that they are making their choices based on "coolness". Great school - check. Great coach - check. Coolness factor - 99% of games on TV, great conference, great rivalry, Olympic coach, best fans, NBA caliber program - yeah, pretty darn cool. Life is a sorting out process. Duke will attract great kids every year BECAUSE of its perception.

I like this post. Some kids don't want to be bothered by academics, and Duke is probably not the right fit for them. But over the years Coach K has done a pretty good job of identifying kids that are a good fit and getting them to Duke.

Scorp4me
04-06-2009, 10:35 AM
K coaching in the Olympics will show up years in the future. Much like many of our recent recruits pointing back to our first two Championships as the reason they became Duke fans.

We'll be just fine. I only hope K knows that and isn't panicing like some of you are.

Classof06
04-06-2009, 01:34 PM
I like this post. Some kids don't want to be bothered by academics, and Duke is probably not the right fit for them. But over the years Coach K has done a pretty good job of identifying kids that are a good fit and getting them to Duke.

Can't say I agree with that lately. Let's first look at the amount of transfers, kids who didn't even end up coming after initially committing and kids who left because they didn't believe it was a good fit: Michael Thompson, Eric Boateng, Shavlik Randolph, Jamal Boykin, Shaun Livingston, Kris Humphries, Josh McRoberts, Taylor King and Marty Pocius (who is leaving despite one more year of eligibility). Overall, this list is nine kids...since 2004. I say McRoberts and Randolph because because 1) I knew both kids personally and 2) they couldn't have been happy leaving when they had no business doing so; McRoberts and Krzyzewski knew he was leaving after his sophomore year when he was still a freshman! When you look at this list, you can't refute the fact that Coach K has had some trouble identifying kids that are a good fit basketball-wise. Every program has transfers, decommits and unhappy players but one cannot deny that Duke's had more than its fair share since 2004.

Then you look at players like Randolph, McRoberts, Sean Dockery, Lance Thomas, Brian Zoubek and Greg Paulus that, in my opinion, haven't/didn't come close to expectations or just never looked comfortable in Duke's system. Three years into his career, I still don't understand what Lance Thomas' position is or what exactly he's meant to provide; he's not a power forward or center but doesn't have the skill set to be a wing player. Greg Paulus was a 2 that started at the 1 for three straight years til Krzyzewski realized he wasn't a true PG. By the time he realized this, he hadn't recruited a true PG behind Paulus for three years; a mistake he's trying to recitfy this summer.

As much as it pains me to say, I personally do not believe Duke carries the same weight with HS recruits that it once did. None of this is made easier when you consider that UNC has been past the Sweet 16 four of the past five years and Duke simply hasn't since 2004. Jon Brockman (UW's big man who Duke chased very hard), Brandan Wright, Patrick Patterson, Greg Monroe and Kenny Boynton are the types of kids Duke used to get 10 years ago with no problem. Obviously, this is no longer the case. Furthermore, I would consider everyone of these kids "Duke kids," and they still didn't come. And you cannot tell me Duke's '08-'09 roster had anywhere near the talent of Duke's past rosters. Not even close. Shelden Williams graduated in 2006 and Duke has yet to find a solid post player to replace him; if that doesn't imply recruiting problems, I don't know what does.

On the other hand, John Wall is a kid Duke would have had no part of in the past. The fact that Krzyzewski is going after him so hard tells me the staff is feeling both the heat and the need to hit the recruiting trail with a real sense of urgency. And they should; that Villanova game painfully illustrated that Duke just does not have the horses it once did.