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MarkD83
04-01-2009, 09:56 PM
In the John Walll thread Kewlswim wrote"


"I firmly believe that Duke will one day be more successful than Carolina--in hoops--again. We past each other like elevators, up and down, up and down. There were many years there where we were beating UNC left and right and I don't mean just when D'oh was there. In the '80s under Dean Smith I think there was a stretch where Duke beat Carolina four straight times.

We have a great coach. The game has not passed him by. I think he was stretched a little too thin with the USA Basketball commitment. That, I believe, is over. Duke basketball is in great hands."

This made me think about Coach K's career and the different challenges he has successfully faced.

I was at Duke when Coach K started and he did not want Duke basketball to be good just "locally" or just against UNC. He wanted Duke basketball to be good nationally and he was very successful at doing this. In fact I believe in 1990 under Coach K's leadership Duke had been to more final fours (4) than they had won ACC championships (2).

After Coach K's unfortunate exhaustion episode he became reinvigorated and won another national championship but also he wanted to win "locally". That resulted in 8 ACC championships in the past 11 years (boy does that sound good).

With Roy Williams now at UNC a new challenge is presenting itself. Coach Williams is an excellent recruiter and will have UNC in the hunt for ACC championships, NCAA final fours etc. I can now see Coach K accepting this new challenge and trying to ride the elevator back up past UNC. In the ACC and at Duke one of the legacy's is how you do against UNC.

This new challenge may result in Coach K recruiting players that only stay 1 year. I do not view this as an act of desperation or a compromising of ideals it is just an adjustment to the times. As an example about 5 or so years ago everyone at UNC bragged that UNC never recruited over other players. Well there are quite a few players at UNC that all seem to play the same position. This statement is not meant to start a flaming war but to point out that Coach Williams is recognizing the reality of the current state of college basketball. The players will leave whenever they want so you better be ready.

I fully expect Coach K to adapt and meet the current challenge and in the near future I predict Duke and UNC will play against each other 4 times in a year with the last game being in April when all other teams are at the beach.

SupaDave
04-01-2009, 10:55 PM
In the John Walll thread Kewlswim wrote"


"I firmly believe that Duke will one day be more successful than Carolina--in hoops--again. We past each other like elevators, up and down, up and down. There were many years there where we were beating UNC left and right and I don't mean just when D'oh was there. In the '80s under Dean Smith I think there was a stretch where Duke beat Carolina four straight times.

We have a great coach. The game has not passed him by. I think he was stretched a little too thin with the USA Basketball commitment. That, I believe, is over. Duke basketball is in great hands."

This made me think about Coach K's career and the different challenges he has successfully faced.

I was at Duke when Coach K started and he did not want Duke basketball to be good just "locally" or just against UNC. He wanted Duke basketball to be good nationally and he was very successful at doing this. In fact I believe in 1990 under Coach K's leadership Duke had been to more final fours (4) than they had won ACC championships (2).

After Coach K's unfortunate exhaustion episode he became reinvigorated and won another national championship but also he wanted to win "locally". That resulted in 8 ACC championships in the past 11 years (boy does that sound good).

With Roy Williams now at UNC a new challenge is presenting itself. Coach Williams is an excellent recruiter and will have UNC in the hunt for ACC championships, NCAA final fours etc. I can now see Coach K accepting this new challenge and trying to ride the elevator back up past UNC. In the ACC and at Duke one of the legacy's is how you do against UNC.

This new challenge may result in Coach K recruiting players that only stay 1 year. I do not view this as an act of desperation or a compromising of ideals it is just an adjustment to the times. As an example about 5 or so years ago everyone at UNC bragged that UNC never recruited over other players. Well there are quite a few players at UNC that all seem to play the same position. This statement is not meant to start a flaming war but to point out that Coach Williams is recognizing the reality of the current state of college basketball. The players will leave whenever they want so you better be ready.

I fully expect Coach K to adapt and meet the current challenge and in the near future I predict Duke and UNC will play against each other 4 times in a year with the last game being in April when all other teams are at the beach.

Are you suggesting that Roy Williams is the new challenge? Or recruiting? Or having the same players? Or players leaving?

Or maybe the challenge is your prediction. Yeah - that's it.

Come on man!

MarkD83
04-01-2009, 11:15 PM
Right now both coachs are in the primes of their careers.

Neither will retire anytime soon and both will be fighting for the same things.

1. Recruits
2. ACC championships
3. NCAA championships

So the road to success leads through Chapel Hill and beating UNC. Likewise the road to success in Chapel Hill will (and needs to be) through Durham.

When Coach K started, Dean Smith had already had success both locally and nationally. When Smith stepped down the transition was shaky (at best).

Now there are two comparable coaches at the two schools and that is where the challenge lies for both schools.

I have been following Duke basketball for 30 years and this is unique time where neither coach has to prove anything. However, they are so competitive that beating each other may be what motivates them. The bonus is beating each other means local and national success as well.

Scorp4me
04-02-2009, 02:26 AM
Anyone saying the game has passed Coach K by is simply an opposing fan trying to convince others of something they don't even believe.

SupaDave
04-02-2009, 07:56 AM
I'm sorry but I think you're forgetting about a dozen other coaches and after that probably another 12 teams that could knock us off on a good night.

Coach K's greatest challenge has been and always will be getting his teams to play the best basketball they can.

We don't practice any differently for UNC. Believe that.

For your information we've lost to UNC the same year we've won a championship.

And lastly, I don't think local or national prominence has been a problem for these schools in a very long time.

brianl
04-02-2009, 08:59 AM
Back in 94, I had an opportunity to go in Coach K's office (with a staff member) while they were in practice session. Considering his new office, it's a little funny to think of how small that one was, but I remember two specific things from being in there that day. The first was all of the awards that Coach had won, not just basketball awards but recognition as a good person. The second was an observation that I made while sitting at his desk. There was a cardboard tube leaned up against the wall, with an NCAA logo on it. I asked the staff member what it was and she said it was an NCAA Final Four banner (I think from 89). She said that he wouldn't hang it in Cameron until Alaa Abdelnaby graduated. His commitment to everyone graduating really stuck with me.

The game has changed however, its just a shame that these guys don't see the value in staying in school. But comparing the earning potential of an additional two or three years to a professional career are hard for many of us to comprehend too.

SupaDave
04-02-2009, 09:18 AM
Back in 94, I had an opportunity to go in Coach K's office (with a staff member) while they were in practice session. Considering his new office, it's a little funny to think of how small that one was, but I remember two specific things from being in there that day. The first was all of the awards that Coach had won, not just basketball awards but recognition as a good person. The second was an observation that I made while sitting at his desk. There was a cardboard tube leaned up against the wall, with an NCAA logo on it. I asked the staff member what it was and she said it was an NCAA Final Four banner (I think from 89). She said that he wouldn't hang it in Cameron until Alaa Abdelnaby graduated. His commitment to everyone graduating really stuck with me.

The game has changed however, its just a shame that these guys don't see the value in staying in school. But comparing the earning potential of an additional two or three years to a professional career are hard for many of us to comprehend too.

Like the Coach K story. I know that Coach is a great person.

But let's talk about the real world. Most will tell you that they don't actually learn their profession until they get a real job - after school. If I'm a super stud basketball player then I've been in school preparing for my career MOST of my life. It may not be your school but it's definitely a school of hard knocks.

TriGuy
04-02-2009, 10:06 AM
Back in 94, I had an opportunity to go in Coach K's office (with a staff member) while they were in practice session. Considering his new office, it's a little funny to think of how small that one was, but I remember two specific things from being in there that day. The first was all of the awards that Coach had won, not just basketball awards but recognition as a good person. The second was an observation that I made while sitting at his desk. There was a cardboard tube leaned up against the wall, with an NCAA logo on it. I asked the staff member what it was and she said it was an NCAA Final Four banner (I think from 89). She said that he wouldn't hang it in Cameron until Alaa Abdelnaby graduated. His commitment to everyone graduating really stuck with me.


I'm pretty sure that all the players from the '89 team have since graduated except for Phil Henderson and that it was he, and not Abdelnaby, who was the holdout. I don't know that Phil has ever finished. But then, he and K had some <ahem> history between them.

I haven't been back to Durham since the early 90's, so I don't know if that banner has ever been hung . . . can someone in the collective help me out with that? And what about the '99 team . . . I'd bet (but don't know) that there are one or two who never finished their degree (I'm thinking Magette and Avery). What IS Coach's new rule?

My favorite situation was when K threatened to un-retire Laettner's jersey if he didn't finish his degree before the '92 Olympics . . .

Scorp4me
04-02-2009, 02:19 PM
Like the Coach K story. I know that Coach is a great person.

But let's talk about the real world. Most will tell you that they don't actually learn their profession until they get a real job - after school. If I'm a super stud basketball player then I've been in school preparing for my career MOST of my life. It may not be your school but it's definitely a school of hard knocks.

Well then if you ask me the problem is with society not the kids, college, or Cocah K. No reason that basketball players (or any other professional athlete) should be paid millions while police officers, teachers, etc. can barely get by. Am I saying the salaries should be switched? Well, I might think it but no I'm not saying it. But there should be a little more balance and perhaps this would be a moot point.

KyDevilinIL
04-02-2009, 02:28 PM
In my opinion, K's toughest challenge is overcoming the beating Duke takes in the national perception of the basketball program.

Duke has so many recruiting advantages over so many other schools. But it is increasingly becoming more difficult to sell those things against the crushing weight of anti-Duke BS.

Maybe I'm paranoid, but I truly believe the following is true in some high-schoolers' minds, because this is what they hear from their friends, other programs, even the media:

1. If you go to Duke, you are overrated and will fail in the NBA.
2. If you go to Duke, you are soft.
3. If you go to Duke, everyone will hate you and make fun of you.
And so on.

I mean, the other day I'm listening to Mike and Mike on ESPN radio, and Gottlieb is talking about Pitt's defense of Scottie Reynolds' last shot in the East region final. For no reason, Gottlieb says something to the effect of: "Just flop and get the call. Pretend you are a Dukie pretend you are Jon Scheyer and flop."

Little things like that stick in players' minds. And it's only going to get worse. These bloggers, these columnists, these radio folks we're starting to see more and more of them coming from the full-blown Duke-hate generation.

I don't know how K overcomes it, but he can figure it out. If we start getting back to Final Fours soon, then the prospect of winning big will draw players back. I hope. But as long as we have a reputation as a regular flame-out in the NCAA tournament, and as long as the program is the focus of such negative attention, the road's going to be difficult.

Olympic Fan
04-02-2009, 04:37 PM
I'm pretty sure that all the players from the '89 team have since graduated except for Phil Henderson and that it was he, and not Abdelnaby, who was the holdout. I don't know that Phil has ever finished. But then, he and K had some <ahem> history between them.


Phil graduated a few years ago and the banner did go up.

You have to understand, the 1990 banner (not the 1989 banner) was not hung because one guy let down academically, but because all three seniors failed to graduate on time. Brickey fell just short and graduated at the end of the summer of 1990. Abdelnaby took a little longer, but came back after his rookie NBA decision and got his degree. It took Phil longer -- more than a decade -- but he finally finished (sorry, can't remember the exact year).

Over the years, K has had individual players who took a little longer -- Christian Laettner was one class short of graduating. Technically, he did graduate with his class (he was allowed to participate in graduation ceremonies) -- he finished the missing class in the first semester of summer school.

As for guys who turn pro early, it's not a matter of getting your degree, but remaining in good academic standing until you leave (mainly meaning finishing the second semester of your last year). Most of Duke's early entries have met this standard -- the only one I know didn't was Avery.

Under the NCAA's current APR system, it makes a BIG difference whether transfers and early NBA entires leave in good academic standing or not.

Scorp4me
04-02-2009, 05:08 PM
If we start getting back to Final Fours soon, then the prospect of winning big will draw players back. I hope. But as long as we have a reputation as a regular flame-out in the NCAA tournament, and as long as the program is the focus of such negative attention, the road's going to be difficult.

I have to argue with this one. Only four teams make it to the final four each year. If that's the definition of failure we're in great company. The only ones judging Duke poorly for not making it are the ones trying to tear us down. Unfortunately for them we're consistenly in the top 10 and consistently winning. That's what sticks in the players minds when it comes to that. A consistency of excellence is what matters and when it comes to that Duke succeeds.

As for your 1,2,3 points. The first that Duke players fail in the NBA was at one time a legitimate one. Maybe not a valid one, but one that factored in. Lately I think that has gone away and I can't remember the last article I read about Duke players failing in the NBA. The third is valid but I doubt they care. I'm a Duke fan, I know people may dislike me for it. Doesn't matter one bit. As for the second, about being soft, maybe that matters. I don't know. I just know I didn't consider what people would think of me when I chose my college destination. I think it has to do with the confidence a player has coming in. And if you're being recruited to Duke I'd think you have the confidence.

Just my thoughts.

TriGuy
04-02-2009, 05:15 PM
Phil graduated a few years ago and the banner did go up.

You have to understand, the 1990 banner (not the 1989 banner) was not hung because one guy let down academically, but because all three seniors failed to graduate on time. Brickey fell just short and graduated at the end of the summer of 1990. Abdelnaby took a little longer, but came back after his rookie NBA decision and got his degree. It took Phil longer -- more than a decade -- but he finally finished (sorry, can't remember the exact year).

Over the years, K has had individual players who took a little longer -- Christian Laettner was one class short of graduating. Technically, he did graduate with his class (he was allowed to participate in graduation ceremonies) -- he finished the missing class in the first semester of summer school.

As for guys who turn pro early, it's not a matter of getting your degree, but remaining in good academic standing until you leave (mainly meaning finishing the second semester of your last year). Most of Duke's early entries have met this standard -- the only one I know didn't was Avery.

Under the NCAA's current APR system, it makes a BIG difference whether transfers and early NBA entires leave in good academic standing or not.

Thanks for the update on Phil. I knew about Brickey and Abdelnaby, but I thought Phil was still a hold-out.

I know there was an issue with K and Phil (word is) about K not permitting Phil to use his final year of eligibility. Phil had trouble adjusting to Duke as a frosh and had to academically redshirt (I'm not sure that it was termed a redshirt, only that he was deemed "academically inelligible"). Story goes that K considered that a year that Phil lost by not keeping his academics up, and Phil thought he should be able to claim a last year of eligibilty per NCAA rules. But Ks rules were what mattered and Phil was pretty upset and carried the grudge for quite some time.

Like I said, word is . . .

Thanks for the correction on the year, my brain wasn't in critcal thinking mode, I just unthinkingly followed the reference of the previous poster . . .

cspan37421
04-02-2009, 05:27 PM
and Phil thought he should be able to claim a last year of eligibilty per NCAA rules. But Ks rules were what mattered and Phil was pretty upset and carried the grudge for quite some time.

... was in one of my classes and from what I saw, I've wondered how he kept his eligibility the years he did. Perhaps he did well enough in his others; are you allowed a mulligan per semester? Thankfully I never had to be concerned with how many classes one was allowed to fail and still stay in school.

arnie
04-02-2009, 08:42 PM
Well then if you ask me the problem is with society not the kids, college, or Cocah K. No reason that basketball players (or any other professional athlete) should be paid millions while police officers, teachers, etc. can barely get by. Am I saying the salaries should be switched? Well, I might think it but no I'm not saying it. But there should be a little more balance and perhaps this would be a moot point.

And this "balance" would then need to apply to actors, musicians, authors, successful businessmen and the list can go on and on. I guess Tiger Woods would no longer be able to finish first in a tournament if the purse was too high. And maybe we could not keep score in basketball games because it would provide more "balance". After all the successful programs keep on making the NCAA tournament and that's not fair to the unsuccessful programs.

Indoor66
04-02-2009, 08:45 PM
Just give 'em all trophy's.

weezie
04-02-2009, 09:16 PM
....I'm listening to Mike and Mike on ESPN radio, and Gottlieb is talking...

...These bloggers, these columnists, these radio folks...

No disrespect KYDinIL, but here's the problem: idiot radio jabbers like the three referenced above are paid to yap, to come up with "pithy" remarks and stupid proclamations that are forgotten within seconds. They are (usually) guys who are paid far too much for far too little content. I seriously doubt that Doug "Coach K was mean to me" Gottlieb influences anything other than what he wants on his pizza.
Even in high school,elite players and coaches know what's what. And they know what Duke is, and who K is and what playing for Duke means. More so than I do, for sure. But then again, I never had much of a long range jumper :cool:

JimBD
04-02-2009, 10:38 PM
Big problems with recruiting in this "one and done" era are that some kids are interested mainly in basketball/improving their draft status and have very little interest in working at academics/attending class, and some schools are offering kids "inducements" which violate NCAA rules. Duke is not likely to get those kids. This is not a sign of bad recruiting, just a fact of life. Duke still does pretty well with the student athletes it does manage to recruit thanks to K's amazing recruiting and coaching skills.

hurleyfor3
04-03-2009, 11:02 AM
Over the years, K has had individual players who took a little longer -- Christian Laettner was one class short of graduating. Technically, he did graduate with his class (he was allowed to participate in graduation ceremonies) -- he finished the missing class in the first semester of summer school.



Really? I thought he was technically (ie, academically) Class of 1993. I have a 1993 commencement program with his name in it. I would hope the university is adamant about graduating by May of year X to be in the Class of X.