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whereinthehellami
03-27-2009, 09:24 AM
The N&O had an article yesterday about the ACC next year (http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/first-look-at-the-acc-in-2009-10). It seemed like a pretty good take with likely early departures factored in. They have Duke, UNC , and Clemson in the top three. It looks like the ACC will be weaker next year than tihs it was this year. YOUCH! Also I'm not sure why Giglio has Teague, Johnson, and Aminu leaving early. Is there something to this or is just pure speculation? If so, then Gaudio is looking at a short tenure in WS.

gotham devil
03-27-2009, 09:45 AM
The N&O had an article yesterday about the ACC next year (http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/first-look-at-the-acc-in-2009-10). It seemed like a pretty good take with likely early departures factored in. They have Duke, UNC , and Clemson in the top three. It looks like the ACC will be weaker next year than tihs it was this year. YOUCH! Also I'm not sure why Giglio has Teague, Johnson, and Aminu leaving early. Is there something to this or is just pure speculation? If so, then Gaudio is looking at a short tenure in WS.
Thanks for the link. If his scenario takes place, we'll certainly be the favorite for the ACC, but, as you mentioned, the league looks comically weak.

CDu
03-27-2009, 09:52 AM
The N&O had an article yesterday about the ACC next year (http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/first-look-at-the-acc-in-2009-10). It seemed like a pretty good take with likely early departures factored in. They have Duke, UNC , and Clemson in the top three. It looks like the ACC will be weaker next year than tihs it was this year. YOUCH! Also I'm not sure why Giglio has Teague, Johnson, and Aminu leaving early. Is there something to this or is just pure speculation? If so, then Gaudio is looking at a short tenure in WS.

I don't agree with Giglio's assessment that Singler would shine as a college "3". I think he's perfectly suited to play the "4" spot in college. At that spot, he can drag bigger players out on the perimeter while his lack of quickness won't be an issue. The problem has been that he's frequently been stuck as the only post presence. That will certainly change next year. If he moves to the 3, he's going to face a lot of guys who are quicker than him. And he's not really a post-up guy, so he's not likely to exploit the advantage the other way.

I do agree with the assessment though. If Henderson returns, we're the hands-down favorites to win the ACC. Without him, we're in the running depending on the improvements of Smith and Williams and the acquisition of another guard.

And yes, the ACC will be down next year, especially if Henderson, Ellington, and Vazquez leave early.

NYC Duke Fan
03-27-2009, 10:00 AM
If he is a junior, why are people so sure that he will leave. I have read that Ed Davis is the next really big star at UNC and that they have an excellent class coming , so why wouldn't Lawson at least consider staying on?

CDu
03-27-2009, 10:01 AM
If he is a junior, why are people so sure that he will leave. I have read that Ed Davis is the next really big star at UNC and that they have an excellent class coming , so why wouldn't Lawson at least consider staying on?

Lawson is only a junior, but I don't think that makes much difference. I think Lawson wanted to be gone LAST year. Even UNC fans are pretty sure Lawson is leaving.

Devilsfan
03-27-2009, 10:10 AM
If G doesn't return, our only black players on the current roster for next year would be Nolan, EWill, and Lance. Sad. We need Nate and Chris and maybe some Team USA players to help us attract more African American players. I know we have tried but we look like a preppy elite school.

arnie
03-27-2009, 10:16 AM
If G doesn't return, our only black players on the current roster for next year would be Nolan, EWill, and Lance. Sad. We need Nate and Chris and maybe some Team USA players to help us attract more African American players. I know we have tried but we look like a preppy elite school.

We can still be a good team with this roster, but until we can recruit/develop something in the post, I don't see us advancing much further in the tournament. Hopefully, K can mold the new Plumlee into an inside presence next year.

Also, Scheyer did what was asked of him at point this year and it made a difference, but what other great teams do you see with conservative point guards with less than great quickness. I think Nolan has to play the point next year.

MADevil30
03-27-2009, 10:17 AM
If G doesn't return, our only black players on the current roster for next year would be Nolan, EWill, and Lance. Sad. We need Nate and Chris and maybe some Team USA players to help us attract more African American players. I know we have tried but we look like a preppy elite school.

This is an argument that I have heard the Duke haters pull out a lot more lately, to the point of calling Coach K racist and referring to recruiting white players as the "Coach K recruiting strategy." Frankly, its bogus. Both Plumlee and Kelly are top 10 (12?) recruits, its not like we are sacrificing talent to go on some racial purge.

But to your point, I agree, it cannot make Duke look great to future recruits. The best response I would have would be to look at the commits for 2010. Thornton, Dawkins, Hairston, and Harrison Barnes expected to be added (please God). Not only will it shift this dynamic, but also give us a really athletic squad.

SMO
03-27-2009, 10:17 AM
If G doesn't return, our only black players on the current roster for next year would be Nolan, EWill, and Lance. Sad. We need Nate and Chris and maybe some Team USA players to help us attract more African American players. I know we have tried but we look like a preppy elite school.

Parish the thought that the sons of white male privilege will be loosed among our basketball team.

gotham devil
03-27-2009, 10:18 AM
If G doesn't return, our only black players on the current roster for next year would be Nolan, EWill, and Lance. Sad. We need Nate and Chris and maybe some Team USA players to help us attract more African American players. I know we have tried but we look like a preppy elite school.

It's not the Team USA's responsibility to recruit anyone to Duke. The coaching staff receives an ample salary.

I don't care what the race is of the players who wear the Duke jersey, but, since you are concerned, the projected class of 2010 happens to be completely African-American.

DukiesPA
03-27-2009, 10:24 AM
I think it's a foregone conclusion that Lawson leaves. He seriously tested the waters last year, but he was hurt much of the season then got himself in a little hot water being pulled over after a drink or two, so he stuck around.

Very surprised they have all three of the Wake guys going. I've heard a lot of speculation about Aminu and he's a likely lottery pick, but the way Teague kinda fell of the earth at the end of the season I'd be inclined to guess he'll be back. Johnson is good but draft projections have him late first round, so I'm not so sure. Maybe they'll just test the water and then come back.

Once reality sets in to Vasquez and he sees he's not a first rounder he'll be back.

I agree that Singler's far-and-away the early favorite for ACC POY in 2010 (assuming G leaves). If they go with that lineup and he gets aggressive he should definitely average 20ppg and be a problem for anyone trying match up with him.

Ed Davis at UNC will give him a big run for it if he comes back, though. The way he's been playing, as the focal point of their offense next year with Hansbrough and Lawson gone next year, he could be a 20ppg, 12-14 rpg, 3-5 blocks/game kind of guy with some weight.

UrinalCake
03-27-2009, 10:37 AM
If G doesn't return, our only black players on the current roster for next year would be Nolan, EWill, and Lance.


Interesting observation. Race is an issue that Duke's detractors like to harp on and Duke's fans like to ignore. However the black players on our team also tend to come from privileged backgrounds. Chris Carrawell was a notable exception that comes to mind. These middle- to upper-class kids from prep schools are the type of guys that Coach K recruits, and who fit in the best at our school, and I think we'll just have to accept that. Not to say that we can't recruit black players, or athletic players, or whatever, but the perception of Duke as being elitest does have some grounds for truth IMO.

jv001
03-27-2009, 10:53 AM
I don't care what color our players are. Just as long as they can play defense, rebound, dribble and shoot. I guess that African-American players do have those qualities. I'm sure Coach K would like to sign as many of the 5 star players that fit his man-to-man defense and motion offense as he can. However their is this little thing called academics and the part about remaining eligible to play that keeps him from signing more 5 star players. The recruiting class for 2010 looks great. What has gotten Duke behind is the 2005 class. It looks like it will be 5 years for us to recover. The future is bright. Don't jump ship. Go Duke!

Kedsy
03-27-2009, 11:11 AM
I think it's a little silly to make projections without knowing who's going pro. It's possible, for example, that the Wake trio do what UNC's did last year and come back, in which case Wake would be a national top 5 team.

I don't think the league looks weak at all next year. UNC looks weaker (hallelujah) but Georgia Tech will be significantly stronger. If you go back to September and look at this year's ACC, a lot of people thought Florida State, Maryland, and BC would suck and that Wake Forest would be a middle-of-the-pack ACC team and borderline NCAA tournament team. The feeling was the league had one great team and one good team and that Clemson and Miami would probably make us a four-bid league, five if Wake could overcome its youth.

Obviously that was all wrong. I think those talking about the league's weakness next year are also wrong. Clemson will be very strong. Georgia Tech could be really good if Favors is the real deal. Assuming Alabi and Gibson do the freshman-to-sophomore improvement thing, Florida State will be good again as well -- someone will step up and score in Douglass's absence. UNC will be annoyingly better than the experts think they will. Wake will surprise people, even if their big three don't return. And it's never wise to completely dismiss Maryland, BC, or Virginia Tech. I see the league being just as strong as it was this year.

Only time will tell who's right.

Kedsy
03-27-2009, 11:24 AM
Incidentally, even if G leaves I think Duke is going to be a very interesting team if one or both of the incoming freshmen are capable of providing productive minutes.

A small lineup of Singler, Thomas, Smith, Williams, and Scheyer will be fast and high-scoring, hard for a lot of teams to match up with. A big lineup of Singler, Williams, Scheyer, and (pick two of) Zoubek, Plumlee I, Plumlee II, Kelly, and (we can dream, right?) Czyz will be one of the tallest lineups in the country and very difficult for many teams to guard.

If G returns or if we land one of our point guard recruits, we'll be even better (obviously). If none of the big men are capable of contributing, we'll be very thin (or shallow or whatever the opposite of deep is), but still reasonably good.

Personally, I can't wait.

Maxwell1977
03-27-2009, 11:50 AM
Presuming G leaves, a lineup of Singler, EW, Nolan and Scheyer would leave a walk-on the only guard\wing on the bench. I don't think so. One of the above doesn't start and 2 of LT, Z, Plumleys, Kelly, Olek start. The bigs will be expected to contribute offensively.

CDu
03-27-2009, 11:56 AM
Presuming G leaves, a lineup of Singler, EW, Nolan and Scheyer would leave a walk-on the only guard\wing on the bench. I don't think so. One of the above doesn't start and 2 of LT, Z, Plumleys, Kelly, Olek start. The bigs will be expected to contribute offensively.

If Henderson goes pro, we're going to need to land a guard who can at least give us a credible 10-15 minutes per game at guard. I don't see us going big all season, as I don't think Singler or Thomas are a good fit at the "3" spot in college. I think Singler is an NBA "3", but that means he's more of a college "4" due to the typical matchups.

I can see us going 5-10 minutes per game with the big lineup, but I don't see that being a good approach. But who knows? Maybe we will try going big. Maybe Singler will surprise me and be really comfortable at the college "3", allowing us to rotate 4-5 of our bigs and actually impose size on our opponents for once.

Diddy
03-27-2009, 01:01 PM
IF Gerald stays.

IF (absolutely everyone) Improves (noticably)

IF one of the recruits can contribute right away

IF we get another guard this year.

IF the 2010 class is great.

Well, I have heard all that for three years running now, and much of it from the same folks. Well that song is getting old. Change the bloody tune already.

G might leave. We might not get another recruit. Many of our returning players may be near their ceiling as players. Neither of our recruits might be impact players. There is no guarantee, or even a solid probability, that Duke will land another guard this year. The 2010 class, which every one has sort of underlined as a return to greatness, currently consists of an athletic wg (yay), and a tweener forward (sort of yay), and a solid combo G (fingers crossed on his ability).

Harrison Barnes, Kyrie Irving, and a player to be named later are not part of the class as yet. Now, I may be imagining this memory, but I seem to remember counting on Greg Monroe and then Kenny Boynton to be the next Duke saviors. The very people counting on 2010's class were the ones who considered us to be locks for those young men. I'll believe the 2010 class will save us after they are signed, AND after they have looked dominant in HS or on the AAU circuit.

As for next year's ACC, I am not so optimistic as some of you.

Clemson, who knows? Booker tore us a new one, and his clone, aka younger bro, suits up next year along with a combo forward who may be a stud. Funnsies. But the Tigers will be good. Very good. Unless they lose their coach. Then, who knows?

GT gets better if every one returns. They had a good PF this year. IF he returns, along with good recruits, they could shock people next year.

FSU had some good frosh, but they loose A LOT. Douglass hurts. Echefu may hurt worse. Versatile PFs willing to bang are not exactly commonplace. Snaer could replace SOME of Douglass, but they have some other young talent in place.

UVA, still a wasteland. Bottom of conf.

MD could be solid. With or without Greivous. Lance Stephenson, a Tyreke Evans clone, is seriously considering UMD. With him, and some solid F's comming in next year, UMD gets real dangerous. Without Lance and with GV, still dangerous.

VT just took a HUGE hit. Momo Jones, a stud Guard from Oak Hill just decommitted from them. With him, they are solid, but probably worse after losses this year. With him, dangerous. Without Jones, bottom half, maybe bottom fourth, of Conf. But I keep saying that, and they keep shocking me.

NCSU. Wasteland. Bottom two in league.

Miami. Better than people think. Decent recruits in place, some young talent. Probably NIT again.

WFU. Huge question mark. Better, worse, who knows? They have some solid recruits comming in. I live in W-S and their are whispers that Teague is not good for the team. Losing him, and either Aminu or Johnson (not both), wouldn't be horrible for the team. Enough talent already in place, and some good recruits (solid PG and dangerous WG/WF en route) to be good. Really good. Even losing one of their F's, WFU still has a HUGE, talented Front court.

And now,

UNC. Our Bette Noire. Huge losses off this year's team. Lawson and Ellington are Done. Lawson is one of the top two PGs in the nation. Ellington has improved more over the last month than anyone else in the country. Not a superstar. But, he is middle of the draft now or next year, so why not start the career clock early? Barring early entry by Davis or Thompson (if they play well in a NC victory, it COULD happen):

UNC won't step back as much as WE hope. Their front court will include John Henson, Ed Davis, Deon Thompson, and Tyler Zellar. Any one of those four likely start at Duke next year alongside Singler. Add Thompson or Davis to next year's Duke team, and Duke is a monster squad. That UNC front line could be the best in the Nation. And Henson can play some 3 in a pinch. Yikes. Yes, their guard rotation is iffy. Iffy-ish. Drew doesn't scare me, but he is capable. They have two guards comming in who are capable. Very capable. Strickland looks like a starting SG, with the Memphis kid as a capable backup. And Ginyard. A hard nosed, defensive minded, do-it-all (ok) SENIOR. A la Nate James or Chris Carawell.

UNC might have some rough starts, but they could look very good come March.

Duke. Ah, Duke. Going on what we definitely have, or might lose, We look good. That's the rub, but I'll get there eventually. With G, we have a solid rotation. Our guard rotation is good, but we need all four to improve on their weaknesses.

E-will has to get better from the FT line, and become someone who can't be left alone on the perimeter. If he can't knock down some threes, teams will lay off him to restrict his driving lanes.

Nolan has to be more consistent. We need a passer at the PG slot. If we get a season of the kid we saw since his injury, only moreso, hooray.

G. Go left young man, go left.

JS. Hoo boy. Rough game last night. No one else was moving, so it wasn't all him. Can't pass to statues. That said, there has been a huge flaw in his PG play from Day 1 of THE SWITCH. He was always highly, highly, risk averse. Yes, he had very few turnovers. He also had fewer assists, which was noted and dismissed on this board. The reason he had so few turnovers was that he only made safe passes. This sounds good, but B-Ball is a risk reward game. You have to feed the post and thread needles on passes. You have to pass the ball down the court to a streeker, not wait for the teams to go down the court. JS did a good job at the PG, but he was a caretaker of the ball, not an initiator or an attacker. He isn't quick enough for that.

Without G, we will be OK. Depth is the real problem.

As for our front court, it is still iffy. Kyle is great, but with a pass first, penetrating PG, he would be special. Lance and Zoubs are what they are. Plum needs to improve, big time.

As for the recruits, I am not as jazzed as some others. They are fine players, to be sure, but I just don't see them as instant upgrades over current players.

Plumlee the younger admits his bro is a better athlete. He is 6-10, light, and plays against God-Awful Comp in Western North Carolina. It was a rare night in HS where he played against another team with a college bound player (athletic or otherwise). Yes, they won the state. But it was small time HS hoops. The ACC is a huge step up. Tons of upside there. But is he an impact player next year? I don't know, but I wouldn't bet on it. I wouldn't bet against it. But if I had to bet one way or the other, probably go against.

As for Ryan Kelly, he seems like a poor man's Kyle Singler. I like Jr Kyle over Frosh Kelly, by a lot. None of these guys is a savior.

The 2009-2010 ACC might be as good, or maybe only a little worse, than this past year. Guess what. The ACC wasn't that good this year. Most of our teams ended the year in EMBARRASING fashion. The other ACC teams lost to mediocre teams in the first weekend, and did so badly. UMD got blown out by a team whose collapse would be news but for Duke's "game." Saying the ACC might be as good next year as last year is not a good thing. The league is foot slow. I used to think it was just Duke, but every team is slow.

And worst of all, Duke will continue to get every team's best shot. The only trouble is, Duke doesn't really warrant that best shot anymore. The rest of the ACC is playing all out against the 1999 or 2001 Blue Devils. But those teams are light years beyond what we now have.

From the last year's team, only 1 guy starts on the 2001 team. Jr Gerald probably starts over frosh CDu or Sr James (at the end of the year). Kyle gets some spot minutes, unless you want to sit Sr Battier or fellow Soph Mike Dunleavy for extended periods. Jon gets some mop up minutes. Not a single other player on this year's team would have gotten on the court in 2001 for any meaningful minutes.

The 2001 team would maul 2009 Duke. And the 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, and 2002 teams were within a close statistical variation of one another. Some were better, some worse, but not by much. 2000 was a young team. That team might have won the ACC regular season last year, and definitely would have taken one off UNC. Lawson vs J-Will? Beat Down.

Yet, Duke gets an effort worthy of those past teams. Teams always talk about playing the name of the back vs the front of the Jersey. Well, they are lying. They are playing the name on the front of the jersey, only the name on the back isn't as good as it used to be.

Only now, the rest of the ACC smells blood. Only UVA and NCSU are sure wins next year. Every other team can take us. And there is no sure fire help on the horizon. 2010 is not set, at all. We have three players. Only one looks like a game changer from Day 1. Barnes or another player might not happen.

Hate me, ban me, whatever. This needed to be said. Rome wasn't built in a day, and we have a similiar (re)building project ahead of us.

whereinthehellami
03-27-2009, 01:36 PM
@Diddy - Ban you? I thought you had alot of good points. The ACC is hurting bad. Only UNC is lock to be in the Top10 for the forseeable future. Duke has some talent but alot of holes and question marks? If Henderson goes, Duke is going to struggle all year against any team with athletes. The rest of the ACC just looks like NIT at best. Clemson does what it can but lacks some serious talent and skill.

As far as the future goes, I agree about next year's recruits. They are going to struggle with strength and adjusting to the speed of the ACC. The dreaded toughness tag will be the buzzword again. I've seen Josh Hairston play a couple of times this year and you can put him in line with those guys. The league he plays in is terrible. There will be an adjustment period for him in his first year.

I don't get why everyone thinks Duke is coming back in the sense of the being the power they were. Its hard to sustain that level of excellence. What if this is as good as it gets? Duke still puts a good product on the floor and is a threat to win the ACC and maybe get to the sweet 16. Is that enough for people? I'm OK with that. I just don't like the overblown expectations and entitlement that some show when saying that Duke will get back to the top.

west_coast_devil
03-27-2009, 01:43 PM
If G doesn't return, our only black players on the current roster for next year would be Nolan, EWill, and Lance. Sad. We need Nate and Chris and maybe some Team USA players to help us attract more African American players. I know we have tried but we look like a preppy elite school.

wow.....

Scorp4me
03-27-2009, 02:07 PM
If G doesn't return, our only black players on the current roster for next year would be Nolan, EWill, and Lance. Sad. We need Nate and Chris and maybe some Team USA players to help us attract more African American players. I know we have tried but we look like a preppy elite school.

Now I could care less if our players were purple as long as they have Duke across their chest. But the other night while waiting for the Duke game to begin I watched one of the others and saw 10 black guys out their playing. I noticed it, but I certainly didn't think "wow! how racially insensitive of them." I mean come on folks. Duke needs to recruit more black kids? Are we going to make other schools recruit more white kids? Let UConn recruit UConn players. Let UNC recruit UNC players. Let Kentucky recruit Kentucky players. Let Duke recruit Duke players. And let the kids decide where they want to end up.

Scorp4me
03-27-2009, 02:12 PM
Just took the time to read the comments on that link as well. Great to see the other fans. One says Singler may be leaving. Another that we are losing some players we aren't expecting. So nice to read that AFTER the Singler article linked on the front page that he is coming back. Taste oh so sweet. As I commented in another thread, we've got it relatively easy when it comes ot the off season compared to some other schools.

whereinthehellami
03-27-2009, 02:50 PM
As I commented in another thread, we've got it relatively easy when it comes ot the off season compared to some other schools.

Yeah I'll be curious to see how the top teams fare once they are in the off-season, considering this is a weak draft and all. All the steeet agents those programs deal with. Whispers and promises of money. The lights and the ladies. Sign me up! At least Duke has some really good kids.

And I'm a huge Singler fan. If I could design a team with 5 players on it, I would take Singler and fiddle with the other 4. The fact that we get to watch him for at least one more year, made the end of the season a little more tolerable for me.

davekay1971
03-27-2009, 02:56 PM
I'm half expecting Jimmy the Greek to show up on this thread and post about how we need to get some guys with an extra bone in their foot...

First, Wojo's not tall enough to allow us to recruit high quality big men (woops, we got two of the nation's best coming next year), now our team's not African-American enough to recruit high quality African-American talent (oh, wait, the 2010 class).

:confused:

CDu
03-27-2009, 03:01 PM
I'm half expecting Jimmy the Greek to show up on this thread and post about how we need to get some guys with an extra bone in their foot...

First, Wojo's not tall enough to allow us to recruit high quality big men (woops, we got two of the nation's best coming next year), now our team's not African-American enough to recruit high quality African-American talent (oh, wait, the 2010 class).

:confused:

From what I've read, we got the same type of big men we always get (i.e., perimeter-oriented, finesse big men.

I'm not one who buys into the argument that Wojo is inherently incapable of coaching big men. But we have seemed to have a problem landing impact post players in the last five years. We've never had a problem landing oversized perimeter big men.

pfrduke
03-27-2009, 04:57 PM
From what I've read, we got the same type of big men we always get (i.e., perimeter-oriented, finesse big men.

I'm not one who buys into the argument that Wojo is inherently incapable of coaching big men. But we have seemed to have a problem landing impact post players in the last five years. We've never had a problem landing oversized perimeter big men.

How many impact post players has K landed in his career?

Are the any aside from Brand, Boozer, and Williams? Parks? Should we maybe be thinking of those three guys as the aberration, and the last five years as the norm, rather than a drought?

CDu
03-27-2009, 05:06 PM
How many impact post players has K landed in his career?

Are the any aside from Brand, Boozer, and Williams? Parks? Should we maybe be thinking of those three guys as the aberration, and the last five years as the norm, rather than a drought?

Abdelnaby became one by his senior year, and Laettner could do pretty much anything. You could argue that those two could be added to the list. That covers much of the stretch from 1990-2006. But if you disagree on Laettner and Abdelnaby, then you're right: the post star has been the exception rather than the norm at Duke under Coach K.

SMO
03-27-2009, 05:07 PM
Should we maybe be thinking of those three guys as the aberration, and the last five years as the norm, rather than a drought?

That would be an entirely rational argument, which has no place on these boards on a day like today!

miramar
03-27-2009, 05:32 PM
Diddy has plenty of good points, but I wouldn't make too many comparisons with 2001. Not too many teams have five starters who will play in the NBA, especially nowadays. The key will be to check back with the Giglio blog on June 16 once we know who stays and who goes, but for now that's probably about the best we can do. I just hope the Big East doesn't look as good next year as this year.

CDu
03-27-2009, 05:46 PM
Diddy has plenty of good points, but I wouldn't make too many comparisons with 2001. Not too many teams have five starters who will play in the NBA, especially nowadays. The key will be to check back with the Giglio blog on June 16 once we know who stays and who goes, but for now that's probably about the best we can do. I just hope the Big East doesn't look as good next year as this year.

Not just play in the NBA, but start.

RelativeWays
03-27-2009, 05:58 PM
I'm half expecting Jimmy the Greek to show up on this thread and post about how we need to get some guys with an extra bone in their foot...

First, Wojo's not tall enough to allow us to recruit high quality big men (woops, we got two of the nation's best coming next year), now our team's not African-American enough to recruit high quality African-American talent (oh, wait, the 2010 class).

:confused:

The PC way to say that is Duke is too whiney. Thats what all the sports pundits claim anyway. What they mean is Duke is too white, despite the great black athletes this team has had. I will say next year if Hendo leaves, we'll be whiter than ND was this year. :eek:

CameronCrazy'11
03-27-2009, 06:16 PM
Ty Lawson is gone I'm sure since he can't make himself any taller, and that is the only thing holding him back as a PG prospect.

The ACC will almost have to be weaker unless a lot of people stay. UNC will be good, but worse without Hansbrough, Green, Lawson, Frasor, and probably Ellington as well. Wake will be a lot worse if at least two out of Teague, Johnson, and Aminu leave, which I think is likely. Florida State will be hurt by the departure of Douglas and Echefu, although Michael Snaer will be a good player for them. Boston College will struggle without Rice, as will Miami without McClinton.

Clemson might be better if Booker comes back, and GT should be better with Favors (although I'm still not sure why they were so bad this year).

Duke should be the clear-cut favorite, even without Henderson. The core of the team will have been playing together for 2-3 years and they'll be better in the post with the freshmen, and better at point if Nolan and Scheyer work on that over the summer.

Cameron
03-28-2009, 05:42 AM
If G doesn't return, our only black players on the current roster for next year would be Nolan, EWill, and Lance. Sad. We need Nate and Chris and maybe some Team USA players to help us attract more African American players. I know we have tried but we look like a preppy elite school.


wow.....


Agreed. Wow, that was a lame post.

Who gives a damn what color of players we have on the roster, these kids are Duke kids and they were recruited to help the university and to help the team. End of discussion. And they've done a damn good job, too. I'm sorry they don't meet your preferred pigment qualification, Devilsfan.

slower
03-28-2009, 07:53 AM
Who gives a damn what color of players we have on the roster, these kids are Duke kids and they were recruited to help the university and to help the team. End of discussion. And they've done a damn good job, too. I'm sorry they don't meet your preferred pigment qualification, Devilsfan.

I'm sure we all agree that it SHOULDN'T matter. But sadly, it probably DOES matter to some recruits. And you can say that they're "not Duke kids" or the type of players/people that we want anyway, but you shouldn't dismiss this line of thought as having no merit. It is what it is.

sandinmyshoes
03-28-2009, 01:01 PM
I haven't wanted to think about basketball for a few days. Not sure I do even now.

But, I think even if Gerald leaves, Duke will be a substantial favorite.

The rest of the conference is not focused right now. Will Clemson's late season swoon carry over? If not, they could be a threat to us. If Wake doesn't lose to many guys to the NBA, could they take the next step up in maturity? They'd be a threat.

UNC's biggest question mark, to me, is at the point. If Drew can step up, by the end of the year they could be a dangerous team. Hard to imagine them finishing the year much better than some sort of tie for third or second, but they could be ACC tourney dangerous.

The Florida teams? I don't know enough about their situations, but they were pretty close to stepping up this year.

And what about Georgia Tech? Seems to be enough talent, can Hewitt get it done?

I guess I worry most about Clemson and Wake because of the talent they have coming back. And then I always worry about UNC because it's just, well, UNC.

CDu
03-28-2009, 01:12 PM
I haven't wanted to think about basketball for a few days. Not sure I do even now.

But, I think even if Gerald leaves, Duke will be a substantial favorite.

The rest of the conference is not focused right now. Will Clemson's late season swoon carry over? If not, they could be a threat to us. If Wake doesn't lose to many guys to the NBA, could they take the next step up in maturity? They'd be a threat.

UNC's biggest question mark, to me, is at the point. If Drew can step up, by the end of the year they could be a dangerous team. Hard to imagine them finishing the year much better than some sort of tie for third or second, but they could be ACC tourney dangerous.

The Florida teams? I don't know enough about their situations, but they were pretty close to stepping up this year.

And what about Georgia Tech? Seems to be enough talent, can Hewitt get it done?

I guess I worry most about Clemson and Wake because of the talent they have coming back. And then I always worry about UNC because it's just, well, UNC.

Clemson will bring in some good talent to an already strong squad. If they can figure out how to maximize Booker's talent, they'll be a threat.

The Florida schools take a big hit next year. Miami loses McClinton, Asbury, Hurdle, and Graham. This year was their shot, and they blew it. FSU loses Douglas and Echefu. If either of those schools challenges, I'll be SHOCKED.

If we lose Henderson, I think we're in the same boat as UNC and Clemson, and maybe Wake. I don't see us as head and shoulders above the rest without Henderson returning.

gw67
03-28-2009, 01:27 PM
As a compliment to the initial post, this is a rackup of the Comings (committed recruits) and Goings (seniors and possible jumpers to the NBA ) for each ACC team. I limited the recruits to those who are 4 or 5 star rated by Scout. The assumption is that those players may have an impact as freshmen. I am not aware of any transfers into the ACC.

BC Coming – None Going – Rice
Clemson Coming – Jennings(6-9), Booker(6-7) Going – Rivers
Duke Coming – Kelly(6-10), Plumlee(6-11) Going – Paulus, McClure,
Henderson(NBA?)
Florida St. Coming – Snaer(6-4, Shannon(6-7) Going – Douglas, Echefu
Ga. Tech Coming – Favors(6-9), Udofia(6-1), Holsey(6-8) Going – Clinch, Aminu, Bell
Maryland Coming – Williams (6-8), Padgett(6-8) Going – Neal, Vasquez(NBA?)
Miami Coming – Scott(6-4), Adams(6-5), Kirk(6-8) Going –McClinton, Hurdle, Graham, Asbury
UNC Coming – Henson(6-10), Wear,(6-9), Wear(6-9), Strickland(6-2), McDonald(6-5) Ginyard(6-5) Going – Hansbrough, Green, Frasor, Lawson(NBA?), Ellington(NBA?)
NCState Coming – Howell(6-7), Brown(6-4) Going – McCauley, Fells, Costner, Ferguson
Virginia Coming - Spurlock(6-7) Going – Diane, Soroye
Va Tech Coming – Raines(6-8) Going – Vasallo, Diakite
Wake Coming – Stewart(6-7) Going – Hale, Johnson(NBA?), Aminu(NBA?), Teague(NBA?)

If the players indicated bolt for the NBA, I don't see any team being obviously better next year with the possible exception of Virginia. The losses are too great.

It appears that the ACC will have a number of good incoming freshmen and several teams, including Duke are continuing to recruit for next year. It appears that both UNC and the Devils will have an abundance of inside players. If one or more can’t transition to the wing, I suspect that there will be one or two unhappy players on each team because of lack of playing time.

gw67

sandinmyshoes
03-28-2009, 01:43 PM
As a compliment to the initial post, this is a rackup of the Comings (committed recruits) and Goings (seniors and possible jumpers to the NBA ) for each ACC team. I limited the recruits to those who are 4 or 5 star rated by Scout. The assumption is that those players may have an impact as freshmen. I am not aware of any transfers into the ACC.

BC Coming – None Going – Rice
Clemson Coming – Jennings(6-9), Booker(6-7) Going – Rivers
Duke Coming – Kelly(6-10), Plumlee(6-11) Going – Paulus, McClure,
Henderson(NBA?)
Florida St. Coming – Snaer(6-4, Shannon(6-7) Going – Douglas, Echefu
Ga. Tech Coming – Favors(6-9), Udofia(6-1), Holsey(6-8) Going – Clinch, Aminu, Bell
Maryland Coming – Williams (6-8), Padgett(6-8) Going – Neal, Vasquez(NBA?)
Miami Coming – Scott(6-4), Adams(6-5), Kirk(6-8) Going –McClinton, Hurdle, Graham, Asbury
UNC Coming – Henson(6-10), Wear,(6-9), Wear(6-9), Strickland(6-2), McDonald(6-5) Ginyard(6-5) Going – Hansbrough, Green, Frasor, Lawson(NBA?), Ellington(NBA?)
NCState Coming – Howell(6-7), Brown(6-4) Going – McCauley, Fells, Costner, Ferguson
Virginia Coming - Spurlock(6-7) Going – Diane, Soroye
Va Tech Coming – Raines(6-8) Going – Vasallo, Diakite
Wake Coming – Stewart(6-7) Going – Hale, Johnson(NBA?), Aminu(NBA?), Teague(NBA?)

If the players indicated bolt for the NBA, I don't see any team being obviously better next year with the possible exception of Virginia. The losses are too great.

It appears that the ACC will have a number of good incoming freshmen and several teams, including Duke are continuing to recruit for next year. It appears that both UNC and the Devils will have an abundance of inside players. If one or more can’t transition to the wing, I suspect that there will be one or two unhappy players on each team because of lack of playing time.

gw67


While there has to be a drop off from Lawson, I think Drew can be an ACC capable point guard. But who in the world will back him up? Strickland? Ginyard? That could be trouble for UNC.

Maryland is a team I forgot to mention. I can't see them sitting atop the league next year. But if they can carry over some of their improvements from this season, I don't think anyone had better overlook them on a game by game basis.

whereinthehellami
03-28-2009, 01:50 PM
As a compliment to the initial post, this is a rackup of the Comings (committed recruits) and Goings (seniors and possible jumpers to the NBA ) for each ACC team. I limited the recruits to those who are 4 or 5 star rated by Scout. The assumption is that those players may have an impact as freshmen. I am not aware of any transfers into the ACC.

BC Coming – None Going – Rice
Clemson Coming – Jennings(6-9), Booker(6-7) Going – Rivers
Duke Coming – Kelly(6-10), Plumlee(6-11) Going – Paulus, McClure,
Henderson(NBA?)
Florida St. Coming – Snaer(6-4, Shannon(6-7) Going – Douglas, Echefu
Ga. Tech Coming – Favors(6-9), Udofia(6-1), Holsey(6-8) Going – Clinch, Aminu, Bell
Maryland Coming – Williams (6-8), Padgett(6-8) Going – Neal, Vasquez(NBA?)
Miami Coming – Scott(6-4), Adams(6-5), Kirk(6-8) Going –McClinton, Hurdle, Graham, Asbury
UNC Coming – Henson(6-10), Wear,(6-9), Wear(6-9), Strickland(6-2), McDonald(6-5) Ginyard(6-5) Going – Hansbrough, Green, Frasor, Lawson(NBA?), Ellington(NBA?)
NCState Coming – Howell(6-7), Brown(6-4) Going – McCauley, Fells, Costner, Ferguson
Virginia Coming - Spurlock(6-7) Going – Diane, Soroye
Va Tech Coming – Raines(6-8) Going – Vasallo, Diakite
Wake Coming – Stewart(6-7) Going – Hale, Johnson(NBA?), Aminu(NBA?), Teague(NBA?)

If the players indicated bolt for the NBA, I don't see any team being obviously better next year with the possible exception of Virginia. The losses are too great.

It appears that the ACC will have a number of good incoming freshmen and several teams, including Duke are continuing to recruit for next year. It appears that both UNC and the Devils will have an abundance of inside players. If one or more can’t transition to the wing, I suspect that there will be one or two unhappy players on each team because of lack of playing time.

gw67

Good post. A number of the other top teams still in the tourney will lose more than the Devils (counting Henderson). Considering its a weak draft I would expect to see guys like Blair with Pitt declare (as they lose fields and Young next year). This years declarations will be interesting.

AtlDuke72
03-28-2009, 04:24 PM
[QUOTE=Diddy;279194]IF Gerald stays.

IF (absolutely everyone) Improves (noticably)

IF one of the recruits can contribute right away

IF we get another guard this year.

IF the 2010 class is great.

Well, I have heard all that for three years running now, and much of it from the same folks. Well that song is getting old. Change the bloody tune already. . . .

Not a single other player on this year's team would have gotten on the court in 2001 for any meaningful minutes.

First, don't really know what the criticism is of posters speculating bout what it would take for the team to become dominant. Isn't that what DBR is all about most of the time?

Second, do you really thing that there would have been no minutes for Henderson, Singler or Scheyer? I strongly disagree. The 2001 team was much stronger overall but these three guys would have played significant minutes on any team Duke including 1986, 1999 and 2002.

Diddy
03-28-2009, 08:22 PM
IF Gerald stays.

IF (absolutely everyone) Improves (noticably)

IF one of the recruits can contribute right away

IF we get another guard this year.

IF the 2010 class is great.

Well, I have heard all that for three years running now, and much of it from the same folks. Well that song is getting old. Change the bloody tune already. . . .

Not a single other player on this year's team would have gotten on the court in 2001 for any meaningful minutes.

First, don't really know what the criticism is of posters speculating bout what it would take for the team to become dominant. Isn't that what DBR is all about most of the time?

Second, do you really thing that there would have been no minutes for Henderson, Singler or Scheyer? I strongly disagree. The 2001 team was much stronger overall but these three guys would have played significant minutes on any team Duke including 1986, 1999 and 2002.

Read the entire post (it was a long rant, I know) before you post. From the original:

QUOTE=Diddy;279194]

From the last year's team, only 1 guy starts on the 2001 team. Jr Gerald probably starts over frosh CDu or Sr James (at the end of the year). Kyle gets some spot minutes, unless you want to sit Sr Battier or fellow Soph Mike Dunleavy for extended periods. Jon gets some mop up minutes. Not a single other player on this year's team would have gotten on the court in 2001 for any meaningful minutes.

The 2001 team would maul 2009 Duke. And the 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, and 2002 teams were within a close statistical variation of one another. Some were better, some worse, but not by much. 2000 was a young team. That team might have won the ACC regular season last year, and definitely would have taken one off UNC. Lawson vs J-Will? Beat Down.



I agree about Hendo. The 2009 Hendo probably starts at SG for the 2001 team over Frosh Duhon, which I said in the original post. Sr Nate James was a warrior, but Hendo was a capable defender and a much more advanced Offensive threat, especially with kickout artists to pass him the ball and shooters for him to kick to on the perimeter. But Nate dog would have played key minutes spelling him, bet your behind.

As for 08-09 Singler, I do not feel that he plays big minutes on the 2001 team. I am not saying that he is not a good player. He is a good player. But, we had a great player at his position, and a similiarly good player at the other forward spot.

Would you argue that Soph Kyle should steel minutes from Shane Battier? Right now, they play the same position, PF, in Duke's scheme. I am sorry, but Sr Battier was world's better than Kyle was last year. And that is no slam on Kyle. He COULD get to approximately where Shane was when Kyle is a Sr (better on O, not as good on D, IF he works hard). But Soph Kyle wouldn't get many minutes from Sr, POY, NDPOY, Jersey Retired, Shane Battier.

You could argue that Kyle would steel minutes from Dunleavy, and I would concur. Kyle would merit some of Dun's minutes. But I feel soph Dun was just a little better at everything than soph Kyle. Kyle rebounds a little better, but Dun didn't really need to with Boozer and Battier, and James, hitting the boards hard.

So yes, AS I SAID IN THE ORIGINAL POST, Kyle would get some minutes backing up our F's. 10-15 a game, which isn't bad, but he would not be one of the top 5 or 6 options on the team, much less the 1st or 2nd option. Keep in mind that with Hendo starting in 2001, James would get some of those F minutes, and CDu (the legend, not the poster) would be getting big minutes at both SG and PG.

And that brings us to Jon. I love the guy, but I really don't see him stealing key minutes from Soph J-Will or even frosh CDu. Jason had been forged by the fire of his Frosh year, and was exactly the type of guard you need to thrive today. He was a fearless and unstoppable penetrator who was also a capable three point shooter. CDu was an athletic, pass first PG who was a capable (if streaky) shooter who could also get into the lane. And Cdu COULD lock down fast perimeter guards.

Jon does a lot of things. He is smart, has a high IQ, is a good passer, good defender, and all arround heady player. So was Battier, Dunleavy, and to a lesser extent, Nate James. Only, all three guys from the 2001 team were taller (2-3 inches by Shane and Mike and 1 inch by Nate) stronger, more athletic, and a little more consistent.

This isn't to say Jon isn't a great player. He is a good player. An all arround player who helps his team win. But the 2001 guys were just better.

As for the rest of the 2009 team, they do not play a single meaningful minute in 2001. E-will would have had a few Buzz worthy Dunks in mopup time (man, remember Mop Up Time?), but that is it. Some guys on the 2009 team who played consistent minutes would not have gotten on the court for a single minute. Not mop up time, not injury time, not any time. Never.

That is my main point. The 2009 guys are fine players, who will win a bunch of games. They are just not as good as the 2001 team. It really isn't that close. And that is the level that all Duke teams aspire too, or should.

I am not asking for teams akin to the 91-92 repeat champs. Batt went to 3 regional finals, 2 final fours, and 1 national championship. J-will and Co went to 1 regional final, 1 final four, and 1 National Championship. Yes, I realize that those guys were so good they left early, and had they returned another FF or NC run might have been likely. But they were so good that leaving early, and thriving, in the NBA was an option for all of them. Those are the level of player a team needs to win at the highest levels of college hoops. But, they bowed out in the Sweet 16 in 2 out of 3 years.

That isn't a lofty standard. 1 serious FF and NC run every 3 years is not unreasonable. It isn't me feeling entitled. Yes, I "expect" a FF worthy team every year. And I do. I also understand that some years we will be an elite 8 team that losses a tough game to another equally good team.

But I am allowed to whine and cry about getting crushed in the Sweet 16. No one is happy about that.

SMO
03-28-2009, 08:28 PM
That is my main point. The 2009 guys are fine players, who will win a bunch of games. They are just not as good as the 2001 team. It really isn't that close. And that is the level that all Duke teams aspire too, or should.



I'm not sure there's a team in the field this year that is nearly as good as the 2001 team. I don't think there's a team from last year's field either. High standards indeed.