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View Full Version : MBB: Villanova 77, Duke 54 (NCAA Tournament) Post-Game Thread



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MulletMan
03-27-2009, 12:19 AM
I know that we are all disappointed by the result of tonight’s game, but keep it clean, respectful and if you’re just here to vent, don’t bother. This team had a really good season, and we ran into a bad match-up tonight.

Duke won 30 games this season and pulled out an ACC title, so keep that in mind as you post in the thread.

Congrats on a great season guys. Tough way to end it, but I’m proud of you.

jipops
03-27-2009, 12:20 AM
Is the Masters on yet?

DukeUsul
03-27-2009, 12:20 AM
Great season men. It's tough running into a team that can exploit your weaknesses. Here's to bringing everyone back together and getting better next year.

delfrio
03-27-2009, 12:21 AM
That felt like the longest half of basketball I've ever watched.

Madrasdukie
03-27-2009, 12:23 AM
Hard luck, guys !

Great season.

Thank you so much Greg, Dave and Marty.

Chard
03-27-2009, 12:24 AM
Great season by a team that I saw had some major flaws from the get go. Tonight, one of them showed up big time. Overall, I'm happy with the season because I think they over achieved. It is a credit to the team and the staff.

Tonight was a really, really bad loss but try to put the entire season in perspective. Hopefully, Duke has everyone coming back.

Thanks David and thanks Greg.

GoingFor#5
03-27-2009, 12:24 AM
devilsdownunder,

I did not bash Duke or K at all. You mixed me up with someone else. I think we played hard, but pointed out what is apparent to most and that we need to recruit more athletic players to win.

The1Bluedevil
03-27-2009, 12:24 AM
Before everyone blasts you for that comments, I agree. Very good team just not elite.

millerecu
03-27-2009, 12:24 AM
I am very proud of our guys for making it to the sweet sixteen. However, what can you say positive about this game? I dont even know what to say or it will definately be negative and what you would call "venting".....

NW Indiana Dukie
03-27-2009, 12:24 AM
Thanks fellas---tonight was disappointing but thanks for a great run. Can't wait til next year!

jipops
03-27-2009, 12:25 AM
I absolutely hated it when I saw we got Villanova on our side of the bracket. Now it's easy to see why. Not trying to sound like I'm some genius but they are the team I picked to win this region. They were a terrible matchup for us, we had absolutely nothing to counter with. It's not like we could bring a scoring big off the bench to open up the perimeter. Nova's guards were very quick and terrific defensively. Shut down our perimeter and you have us beat, that's what they showed us.

So to reflect on the season - no true pg, no true big, only one scorer in the frontcourt and we still won 30 games and an ACC title. Pretty damn impressive work by K this season. Something that will of course go completely unappreciated.

beach rev
03-27-2009, 12:25 AM
Thank you, Greg, Dave, and Marty.

DukieBoy
03-27-2009, 12:26 AM
Well it was a worst case scenario tonight.

You can't blame it on the refs, but calls weren't going our way.

Our defense was badly exploited.

Our offense was non existent

G had probably his worst game of the season

Scheyer didn't fare much better

And Nova hit nearly every shot they took it seemed in the second half.

This was a great team and fun to watch. They gave more heart in each game than any team in the past couple of years.

Congrats to Greg, Dave, and Marty and good luck in the future.

However, be optimistic about next year. Something tells me no one will bolt for the draft this year after coming close and losing the way they did this year. We could easily be ACC favorites and a much more improved team for next year.

DukiesPA
03-27-2009, 12:26 AM
Good, not "great" season.

Sorry to see Greg go out like that, but he handled everything like a man. Much better than I ever could have.

Wonder about G -- If he leaves his all-time record in the NCAA will be 3-3. Wow, who would have thought that was possible?

darkblue2769
03-27-2009, 12:26 AM
Obviously, this is a painful loss. Regardless, reflecting on the season as a whole, it was a pretty great ride. We won the ACC championship, we won 30 games, and we are looking like a BEAST of a team for next year.

Towards the end of the 2nd half, I realized that this would be the last game I watch that features Greg Paulus and Dave McClure and Martynas Pocius in Duke uniforms. A saddening thought, indeed.

I have to hand it to Villanova, though, they came to play, and I wish them the best of luck as they take on Pitt. Tomorrow, though, I am a Gonzaga fan.

To the team- thanks guys for a great season, and seniors- you will be missed.

_Gary
03-27-2009, 12:27 AM
Nice run, fellows. I'm sure you wanted more. Heck, I think you deserved to move up at least one more spot, but them's the breaks.

Just as I feared, the outside shot left us tonight, and with that we were doomed. It really was just that simple. We were not going to win with Gerald, Jon, and Kyle shooting poorly from distance. Just couldn't do it with that type of shooting. Nothing else even mattered, even though there were other aspects we could focus on (porous defense through much of the 2nd half, terrible rebounding that allowed for far too many 2nd chance points, and so on, and so on, and so on. But the bottom line is what I said at the beginning. We could afford the bad shooting night that we got. And it's a real shame because a lot of shots were open early on when we might have grabbed control of the game. As it was we let them hang around and build a lead they never relinquished. The 2nd half was never in doubt from the opening offensive sequence. It simply wasn't meant to be.

Sad night.

micah75
03-27-2009, 12:27 AM
Well, next year, maybe some of you will chant Hare Krishna with me when it counts. Until then, congrats to Greg, Marty, etc.

Great season!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oriole Way
03-27-2009, 12:27 AM
Also want to thank Greg, Dave, and Marty.

Solid season, disastrous final game.

Only thing I care about at this point: did Gerald's performance tonight hurt his stock enough to stay another year?

flyingdutchdevil
03-27-2009, 12:27 AM
Funny thing - I would normally be throwing a chair out the window. However, I'm not. I'm not even pissed. Just disappointed. My anger will expand tomorrow.

I don't know what to say about Duke tonight, but hats off to Nova. They were incredible. What is there not to like about this team? They are all athletic guards / small forwards who pass well, play defense, and have heart. That is what I want. I kinda have a little man crush on Jay Wright. I like what he does.

So, now that Duke is unfortunately out, I have to say the following from here on out. Go Nova.

concrete
03-27-2009, 12:27 AM
We did have 30 pretty good matchups this year.


our we played in a weak conference that looked better than what it was...when it came to the tourney they were quickly ousted by teams they were suppose to beat (on paper).

ice-9
03-27-2009, 12:27 AM
I was disappointed with the lack of competitiveness in the second half -- we shot atrociously -- but overall, satisfied with a decent Duke season, a great one by another standard.

godukerocks
03-27-2009, 12:28 AM
We couldn't get it under 10, and I think that was big. Gerald hitting one field goal just might have contributed also. But a great season nonetheless, but this hurts.

GoingFor#5
03-27-2009, 12:28 AM
Why is it assumed G is leaving? I don't get this. Did I miss something? Sure, he could, but so could Singler and nobody thinks Singler is leaving.

kaufmjo
03-27-2009, 12:28 AM
Duke's luck ran out today and it was ugly. It was a fun season to watch though and much more bearable than the past two. There were great moments this season that show promise for next year.

That being said, to lose in this fashion in the Sweet 16 is tought to swallow and harder to comprehend. These guys shot below 25%!!!!!

Big East is a sick conference and deserves all the credit and hype that we all scoffed going into the tourney. The league blows the doors off the ACC and prepares its teams for success deep into the tourney.

Im going to turn to ESPN post game to hear what K has to say but its not going to be fun....

CDu
03-27-2009, 12:29 AM
Good (not great) game by Villanova. Bad game by us. Villanova thoroughly outplayed us tonight. Aside from Singler, we were just lackluster across the board. Congrats to Villanova, who was clearly the better team tonight.

Very disappointing end to what was otherwise a fantastic season. Granted, 300+ teams end their season with a loss, but it's tough to go out like that. The Scheyer-to-PG experiment looked great up until tonight, where he just looked overwhelmed out there. When you're big three go 9-45 from the floor, you're going to lose.

Hopefully Henderson and Singler come back. Hopefully Smith and Williams get a lot better this summer. Hopefully Zoubek can have a good (and healthy) offseason and can become a more consistent presence on the floor. And hopefully the freshmen make an impact.

Coballs
03-27-2009, 12:29 AM
Here's to never forgetting tonight.....but first I have to move out of Philly.

MarkD83
03-27-2009, 12:29 AM
Sweet 16; 30 wins; ACC Championship.

Thanks to Greg, David and Marty.

This team s getting better each year and there are some recruits coming in to help the weaknesses that have cropped up.

Keep in mind no team is perfect but this team is a championship team.

zingit
03-27-2009, 12:29 AM
The fact that we went completely cold and couldn't hit even the most wide-open shots was bad enough. The fact that we couldn't defend them was even worse. I'm not sure what happened in this game. This was like the Clemson game--except we're supposed to be a much better team than we were then.

What happened????

Ian
03-27-2009, 12:29 AM
Nonsense - our athletes had bad games. EW wasn't too bad, but G and Nolan didn't produce, especially G.

A good team would have other options, we don't. We are too one dimensional.
It was still a good season given our personnel. But if we want to go deeper we need better personnel.

Devilsfan
03-27-2009, 12:30 AM
I enjoyed the ACC tournament. Thanks guys.

Maxwell1977
03-27-2009, 12:30 AM
Ultimately what happened to Duke tonight is what happens to 50% of BB teams - they lost.

eddiehaskell
03-27-2009, 12:30 AM
Like I said in the other thread, Duke needs to hit 35%+ behind the arc to be competitive with good teams. Tonight was some of their worst shooting this season. It happens.

beltwayBD
03-27-2009, 12:30 AM
We will miss you, Dave, Marty, and especially Greg. Greg has been the consummate team player, and he will be missed for many seasons of leadership.

ACC Champs is nothing to sneeze at, we Duke fans, alums, and players have a lot to be proud of this season.

I can't quite put together why everything fell apart. I think it has something to do with their zone. We've often struggled against it this season. That doesn't explain half of it ... but, I'm sure we'll all spend the next couple days trying to figure things out.

Tough. Bummed.

Hopeful.

Huh?
03-27-2009, 12:30 AM
Take a look at the recruits who are coming in the fall of 2010. I think you'll be pleased.

Could be one of the best classes to come in since our NC championship team. Too bad that wasn't this year or next year.

Saratoga2
03-27-2009, 12:30 AM
I'll save my comments for another time, except to congratulate the team and all of the players for a fine season. I know they gave their all for Duke and there were many great moments. They must feel very badly about the way they lost tonight. After a time, the talk will shift to the hope for next year.

Especially, I give my thanks to the seniors, who gave their efforts for the Duke team. They have been a credit to the University and college sports in general.

PumpkinFunk
03-27-2009, 12:30 AM
It was an ugly game, and we just didn't play as well as we could have. I have a lot of hope for next season, but as we've seen today and against Clemson, we sometimes just shut down offensively and that's when we die.

Football spring practice is starting up... and only a few months until our opener against Richmond.

dukemsu
03-27-2009, 12:30 AM
Thanks for a strong season, guys. ACC Tournament Champions.

Tonight was simply abysmal. Nova was tough but we made them look like Vegas '90.

-Jon looked overmatched as a point guard.
-We could not dribble penetrate.
-We could not stop dribble penetration.
-The wide-open shots did not fall.

Those are the main ingredients of the loss. I wish K would have gone zone, if for nothing else to make Nova pass the ball rather than dribble it through us. That probably would not have saved us, though.

Unfortunately, we're left with a lot of questions, starting with the status of G and Kyle. Guess that will all be sorted out soon.

I thought Kyle and EWill fought the hardest. Z also had a few nice moments. Dave was Dave.

Tomorrow, the day after Season's End, is my least favorite day of the year.

LGD. We'll be back next year.

dukemsu

DukeDevil
03-27-2009, 12:31 AM
Someone give me a positive thought so I can actually go to bed. That was just...really...painful. I wasn't expecting a national championship by any means...I just really wanted us to play to our seed this year...that would have been a huge success to me. I know, I know, we won 30 games, and an ACC championship...but it's the damn tournament that sticks in people's minds for the whole off season and I just feel like...damn...can we just have a year where we play to our seed?

That being said...talk about a great season to watch. Just SUCH a sour note to end on.

Also...man I'm gonna miss Dave.

dukeballer2294
03-27-2009, 12:31 AM
Great season! Bad way to go out seemed like we wernt trying. I feel sorry for the 3 departing players that we couldnt show them a better effort. But in the end 30 wins and 2 titles (2k classic) isnt bad for a team in my opinion was 1 year away. best wishes go to Greg, David, and Marty to fufill whatever they plan on doing in life. Any1 have the count till next yer starts.

bluedevildaddy
03-27-2009, 12:31 AM
Hats off to Greg and Dave. Two tremendous competitors! You will be missed!

dukestheheat
03-27-2009, 12:31 AM
Congrats to Villanova as they were clearly the better team. Their defense was totally smothering. I'm still wearing my Duke ACC champ t-shirt tomorrow, however. Terrible way to go out, but there's silver lining to this dark cloud:

I think that both Singler and Henderson will come back next year.

dukestheheat.

Ben63
03-27-2009, 12:32 AM
Not much to say after this one. Villianova just straight manhandled us. I could see a Nova win coming, but I didn't epect it to be quite that bad.
Well, its been a good season. Congrats to Greg and Dave for their great careers in blue and white. It's going to be a long offseason, but I'm ready for next season already.

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 12:32 AM
I don't think tonight was a bad match-up.

Duke had open looks early and didn't knock them down. They played solid defense on Nova, holding them to 26 points and 35% shooting. The problem is, Duke shot 29% in the first half and scored just 23.

It's not like Nova was overwhelmingly dominant. They wore Duke down. Towards the middle of the 2nd half, Duke was just jacking up shots anywhere because they were finally open. No consistent flow at all. No rhythm.

Part of that is credit to Nova's D, but I also think that 58 fouls in a game, particularly an NCAA tourny game, is a LOT of fouls. I am in no way saying the refs cost Duke the game, but I will say that the officiating dictated the tone of the game and made it very difficult to get into any sort of rhythm. Nova mainly got their points off of turnovers or defensive breakdowns; it's not like they shot that great other than the wide open layups.

If you don't think 58 fouls is a lot of fouls, let's look at the numbers from the other games:

Pitt-Xavier: 30 fouls
UConn-Purdue: 38 fouls
Memphis-Mizzou: 49 fouls

Memphis-Mizzou had a lot of fouls late because Memphis was fouling to comeback. In the Duke game, there were 54 fouls with 4 minutes left.

I really don't want to hear about anyone saying I'm whining, because I'm not. I'm also not saying it's why Duke lost, or why Nova won. I'm saying it affected the tone of the game. They called the light, ticky tack stuff and let the bumps, grabs and off the ball stuff go.

The 2nd half was just awful. Duke kept shooting like crap, Nova started hitting some shots. I thought for a bit there, when Nova was jacking up three after three with a 16 point lead and 9 minutes left, that Duke was primed for a comeback. But every time they'd get a big basket or get to the line, they'd just do something stupid, like throw it out of bounds or jack up an ill-advised 3 early into the shot clock.

Hopefully next year will be better and Singler and Henderson come back. This is a strong team and will only get better if everyone stays.

jv001
03-27-2009, 12:33 AM
I'm proud of what this team did this year. 30 wins, ACC Champions and a good streak at the end of the year. We played with what we have and that's a bunch of great guys that played hard most every play. Tonight we met a team that could take advantage of our major weakness. Lack of speed and quickness. That lack of speed hurt us on offense and certainly on defense, especially in the 2nd half. We have a long time to get things worked out and I think we will. Go Duke!

Devilsfan
03-27-2009, 12:33 AM
We're only two super stars away from being an elite team This team was fun to support because they were truely over achievers considering their total make up.

ambitiouspear
03-27-2009, 12:34 AM
We looked a little outmatched the entire game, but I still had hope up until the 5 minute mark. If only one of our players got hot from outside, we could have closed the gap when it was about a 12 point lead. Alas, that never happened. Instead, a couple turnovers and in-and-outs happened and Nova capitalized on the other side. I am shocked that G had nothing going for him the entire game. He looked like a different player from the second half of the season. I don't think he had a single dunk/layup opportunity.

Got to give credit to Nova. They whipped us (especially in the second half).

I enjoyed this season. They looked and played like a true team. Thanks to the seniors for their years of hard work. Can't wait until next season. Here's hoping that Uconn and Unc fall quickly!

Ian
03-27-2009, 12:34 AM
This would be a completely reasonable argument, if only Duke had finished the season 14-16. But since we finished the season 30-7, with an ACC Championship, a Sweet 16 appearance, and *more wins and sweet 16 appearances this decade than any other team in any other decade ever*, maybe, just maybe, sometimes teams lose.

You can't win the NC every year. You just can't. Which means, your team ends with a loss most of the time. Why does it always have to be a giant cloud of failure swallowing the whole program? Why can't it be a bad shooting night 7 times out of 37?

We didn't just lose a game, we got dominated. It was not by accident. Nova completely dismantled us, this was not a loss that "just happens". If we had lost a game 65-62 you can say that. But not here.

RepoMan
03-27-2009, 12:34 AM
This team accomplished alot. Great run at the end of the season. Great to get an ACC title. Alot of enjoyment over the season. Good kids who play hard, and, overall, it was a succesful season. Thanks for the ride.

However, this loss and the loss to Clemson were two of the worst beatdowns (of a Duke team) I have seen in the last 25 years. They rate right next to UNLV 1. There is something wrong when that happens twice in a season like this. The frustration the team felt was palpable, but it just wasn't channeled the right way in either game. If we hadn't started hanging our heads so early, we might have been able to dig out of the hole. Villanova for a stretch seemed like they wanted us to get back into it.

I guess I think it is leadership and experience. If this whole team came back next year (excluding the seniors and Marty), I bet we'd see that this would not happen again--not that we wouldn't loose, but that we wouldn't see this disabling frustration. Just like the guys learned after UNLV 1. If guys go pro, well, we are back to ground zero in some respects.

Anyway, very good season. Thanks for a fun 6 months. Bummer that its over.

GoingFor#5
03-27-2009, 12:34 AM
This is not venting. I seriously think we need to hire a Sports Psychologist for any potentially season-ending game, i.e. the tournament. The most disturbing thing for me is that I'm not overly surprised.

Meanwhile, every commentator out there is "shocked". Doesn't that tell us something? Villanova deserves credit, sure, but we crumbled. That was not Duke out there. I'm not sure how many years in a row I've written this, and it's not that our heads aren't in the game (maybe too much into the game), but there are mental factors in effect.

I really think it was just a bad matchup, athletic team again. We handled the stress of the ACC tournament quite well. I can't think of one other big game where we "crumbled".

concrete
03-27-2009, 12:34 AM
Thanks for a strong season, guys. ACC Tournament Champions.

Tonight was simply abysmal. Nova was tough but we made them look like Vegas '90.

-Jon looked overmatched as a point guard.
-We could not dribble penetrate.
-We could not stop dribble penetration.
-The wide-open shots did not fall.

Those are the main ingredients of the loss. I wish K would have gone zone, if for nothing else to make Nova pass the ball rather than dribble it through us. That probably would not have saved us, though.

Unfortunately, we're left with a lot of questions, starting with the status of G and Kyle. Guess that will all be sorted out soon.

I thought Kyle and EWill fought the hardest. Z also had a few nice moments. Dave was Dave.

Tomorrow, the day after Season's End, is my least favorite day of the year.

LGD. We'll be back next year.

dukemsu

Kyle, Ewill, and Thomas definitely showed up. Thomas was really battling, doens't show up on the sheet (well the fouls do lol) but I saw him giving as much as he was getting.

Ewills dunk was amazing...i think the loss has made it go unnoticed , that was a top 5 dunk of the year.

Kyle did everything he could.

Kfanarmy
03-27-2009, 12:34 AM
The team missed a bunch of open shots in the second half...and they have been weaker at defending in transition than in the half set, so a lot of misses doesn't score points and puts them in danger on defense. Need to get much better at interior defense to go further. Without being able to pass on the interior, players are left trying to drive on set defenders...no one looked to pass to Z when he posted up...I know he can travel, but when shooters aren't hitting, you've got to try something else. Team gave up 50 in the second half, half of that as a result of being out positioned with interior passing. It was a good season for this team, went a bit further than expected. Villanova was scrappy quick and, while they created a lot of bad shots on Duke's side, if Duke hits the open one's they could have stayed in the game. Everyone needs to pass better...someone else has to step up when G and Scheyer aren't hitting. Still, the team shot almost 50% from inside the arc. I also think Villanova's hard fouls early made a couple of folks gunshy...so on that point, I think the Wildcat players were right.

Lulu
03-27-2009, 12:34 AM
Can someone post Elliot's dunk? That's my highlight of the night and probably the best thing that happened tonight that's got me looking forward to next year.

KyDevilinIL
03-27-2009, 12:36 AM
Well, once the dust settles I hope we can appreciate how impressive a season this was, considering our obvious weaknesses. We simply weren't a complete team, but we all know that.

Here's hoping everyone returns and we come back even stronger. We've got the potential for a great run next season, but we simply must get faster, stronger and develop a post that can contribute points and take pressure off our shooters. After three years, it's painfully clear that we cannot realistically compete for a Final Four without a legitimate inside threat. The margin of error is just too small.

Depressing end to a solid season. Thirty wins and an ACC championship are nothing to sneeze at. We just picked a horrible time to play one of our worst offensive games of the year, and Nova is as solid as advertised. Congrats to them, and congrats to our guys for continuing to fight when things looked so bleak a couple months ago.

AluminumDuke
03-27-2009, 12:36 AM
The last season that I felt this way was 1990 when we lost so badly to UNLV in the finals (the last time was at Clemson). Here's hoping that next season turns out as well as the season after that one.

Son of Mojo
03-27-2009, 12:36 AM
Very painful game and close to what was a good season--don't let anyone tell you it wasn't. Hate the result and let's hope it'll be a painful reminder to our class next year of things not to do. Greg, David, Marty--good luck in the future; appreciated the effort each of you exhibited out there. Now I have to go to bed so I can wake up at 4:30 am to get ready for work.......2009 ACC Champs!!!

bjornolf
03-27-2009, 12:37 AM
We shot 16-60 from the floor and 5-27 from behind the arc. Wow. That's the game right there. Good night. Game over.

Loved this team. Very disappointed that the season ended the way it did, and I HATE that the seniors' careers ended the way they did (Dave and Greg did NOT deserve this ending), but that's the way the cookie crumbles. Hopefully all the guys that can come back will, and we'll do better next year.

feldspar
03-27-2009, 12:37 AM
Well, once the dust settles I hope we can appreciate how impressive a season this was, considering our obvious weaknesses. We simply weren't a complete team, but we all know that.

I just wonder when we're going to be able to stop saying this at the end of the year. Feels like we've been saying that forever.

OldSchool
03-27-2009, 12:37 AM
Terrible shooting night. The open looks didn't fall, and Villanova really made the team work hard to even find an open look.

If people are searching for a bright spot, I was surprised at how effective Zoubs was in this game. Against a quick, athletic team Z had a number of effective plays. That bodes well for next year, especially since he appears healthy going into the offseason.

CDu
03-27-2009, 12:37 AM
We're only two super stars away from being an elite team This team was fun to support because they were truely over achievers considering their total make up.

Umm, how many super stars do you need on a team? We had two super stars on the team this year and one really really good player alongside them. They just got dominated tonight, unfortunately.

When your three stars go 9-45 from the field, you're going to lose. It's disappointing that Henderson and Scheyer didn't have it at all tonight.

Hats off to Villanova, who just flat out outplayed us.

Coballs
03-27-2009, 12:37 AM
We're only two super stars away from being an elite team This team was fun to support because they were truely over achievers considering their total make up.

Uh, two superstars away from being elite....so are most programs.

devildownunder
03-27-2009, 12:37 AM
I was disappointed with the lack of competitiveness in the second half -- we shot atrociously -- but overall, satisfied with a decent Duke season, a great one by another standard.

We were being absolutely smothered on offense. At a certain point, guys start to wilt under that. To expect them not to, unless you have a raft full of battle-hardened seniors with championship experience, is unrealistic.

77devil
03-27-2009, 12:38 AM
Someone give me a positive thought so I can actually go to bed.

Be glad you don't live in Philly.

BulldogDancer81
03-27-2009, 12:38 AM
Very disappointing end to an overall great season. After the BC loss I wasn't sure if this team could turn it around, and yet they did. Only losing to UNC and winning the ACC Tournament surprised and excited me and I was so thrilled by the progress the team made. Obviously I'm saddened by the loss tonight, especially one as big as that, but I don't think we should downplay any of this team's accomplishments over the year. Villanova was the better team tonight and it was a matchup that didn't boast well for Duke from the very beginning. That being said I can't wait for next year and thanks to Paulus, McClure, and Pocius for your time and committment to the Blue Devils. You will be missed.

flyingdutchdevil
03-27-2009, 12:38 AM
This is so short-sighted and inaccurate. Tonight just happened to be Jon's worst game of the season. His playing PG was one of the main reasons we turned our season around, won 10 of 11 games, and finally made it back to the Sweet 16.

You also ignore that Scheyer and Henderson are roommates and friends. They do, in fact, look for each other on the court when it comes to passing.

While I agree with you, do you not think we need a true point guard? I don't think we have post issues. Beating teams like FSU, Texas, Wake - post play doesn't matter. We still need a point guard. We don't have one. The last time we had a true point guard was Duhon. And I don't think there is any disputing that

Duvall
03-27-2009, 12:39 AM
Should we have a moratorium on "Will Gerald leave" posts? I'm serious. Not that it isn't an important question, but there's no information there. There's no way to have a productive discussion. It's just going to be a massive waste of time.

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 12:39 AM
Umm, how many super stars do you need on a team? We had two super stars on the team this year and one really really good player alongside them. They just got dominated tonight, unfortunately.

When your three stars go 9-45 from the field, you're going to lose. It's disappointing that Henderson and Scheyer didn't have it at all tonight.

Hats off to Villanova, who just flat out outplayed us.

I don't think Duke has any super stars. They have a lot of players that are very similarly good. Gerald and Kyle are the best players, but superstars? Eh... I call Jay Williams and Grant Hill superstars. Those were guys who could carry a team consistently. No one on this team can carry the team. It's taken a collaborative effort all year, and it just wasn't there tonight.

RelativeWays
03-27-2009, 12:39 AM
Crummy end to a great Season. Kinda hard to be too disappointed with a 30 win season, ACC championship and a return to the sweet 16. A win here and a win at one of the UNC games would have been nice, but still, you can't complain too much. Thanks to the seniors, hopefully the underclassmen make all the correct decisions for themselves. Looking forward to 09/10.

WiJoe
03-27-2009, 12:39 AM
Great job

acc champs

sweet sixteen

30 victories

THANKS, EVERYONE!!!!!!!!

GTHC

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-27-2009, 12:40 AM
Congrats to Villanova as they were clearly the better team. Their defense was totally smothering. I'm still wearing my Duke ACC champ t-shirt tomorrow, however. Terrible way to go out, but there's silver lining to this dark cloud:

I think that both Singler and Henderson will come back next year.

dukestheheat.

i certainly hope you are right concerning kyle and g.

we got beat up and down the court tonight, and what i really didn't expect was getting "out-toughed." one of the things i have loved about this team is the toughness they developed, particularly late in the season. wins over wake, VaTech, FSU, and in the ACC tourney playing teams that were bigger and scrappier really seemed to be building momentum that peaked (apparently) against texas last week.

yes, we shot poorly. but in even a game where you are shooting 27%, if you are within ten points with ten minutes, you are darned lucky. i have no problem with that.

it was seeing five 'nova players under the basket after missed shots and watching them scurry for loose balls that disappointed me. duke lacked the toughness tonight and it was the wrong night to only give half an effort.

all of that said, this has been a fabulous team to watch. i give coach lots of credit for working this team up to this point. almost every game they had difficult matchups. even tonight i thought zoubek played one of his more impressive games.

this season has been a wonderful ride. i would love to still be playing and i would have loved to have beaten UNC this year, but 30 wins? not too shabby.

let's buckle down and wait for next year.

geraldsneighbor
03-27-2009, 12:40 AM
Be glad you don't live in Philly.


I rather lose to satan. This is absolute hell right now. People I haven't talked to in years that went to Temple are Nova fans apparently. Good times.

Rudy
03-27-2009, 12:40 AM
We're only two super stars away from being an elite team.
:D You could say that for about 20 teams.


This team was fun to support because they were truly over achievers considering their total make up.

True. A little weak at 1 and very weak at 5. They could have gone all the way because all the teams left have some weaknesses. Whoever wins will be playing at their peak capacity.

Oriole Way
03-27-2009, 12:40 AM
The last season that I felt this way was 1990 when we lost so badly to UNLV in the finals (the last time was at Clemson). Here's hoping that next season turns out as well as the season after that one.

I don't think there is good perspective by DBR posters and Duke fans regarding tonight's loss. Either that, or some fans like you are new to Duke basketball, are too young to remember the past 20 years accurately, or just don't have a good memory.

The last loss which was like this was in 2000. We were absolutely run out of the gym by Florida in - fittingly - the Sweet 16. The 2000 team was far more talented, but it was the most similar loss to this one against Villanova.

flyingdutchdevil
03-27-2009, 12:41 AM
Umm, how many super stars do you need on a team? We had two super stars on the team this year and one really really good player alongside them. They just got dominated tonight, unfortunately.

When your three stars go 9-45 from the field, you're going to lose. It's disappointing that Henderson and Scheyer didn't have it at all tonight.

Hats off to Villanova, who just flat out outplayed us.

This is a smart man. I like what you have to offer, CDu.

I don't think we need superstars; we need role players who aren't scared to hit shots. There was so much hesitation in not only this game, but so many recent games. G, the Hebrew Hammer and Singler can only do so much offensively.

Greg_Newton
03-27-2009, 12:41 AM
As terrible and frustrated as I feel right now, I've had a really great time watching this time play all season long. Thanks for the inspiring play night in and night out guys.... Sweet sixteen, ACC champs, 30-7 is a successful season in many respects. Sorry Greg and Dave's (and Marty's) last game had to be this one, and to everyone else, I look forward to watching you again next year (hopefully all in Duke uniforms!).

Our personnel has forced us to live and die by the three for the past three years, and we've died by it in the tourney earlier than our seed has dictated each year. Here's hoping the addition of MP2/Kelly and the continued development of MP1/Zoubek/LT change this next year, because it doesn't appear to be a strategy that can be consistently effective in the NCAA tournament.

That said, Villanova only shot 4-18 for threes, so that wasn't the whole story... they were simply a much better team in the second half in every aspect, and everything was going wrong for us. However, if we had shot 35-40% from three in the first half, we would have had a healthy lead and some swagger going into halftime, and it would have been a completely different game. I'm just sad I won't get to watch this group play another game... it's been fun.

91devil
03-27-2009, 12:42 AM
It is always sad to see the season end. Each year, the team and its players change and adapt, and it is always exciting to witness those changes.

We just didn't have it tonight; Villanova simply played much better than we did. Their defensive effort was terrific and forced us into doing things that we don't like to do.

We all got 37 days and nights of watching our favorite team play. I suspect most everyone out there loves those days...the anticipation, the fun, the nervousness, the glory.

We're all disappointed, for sure, but let's take the time to thank the entire staff and team for their efforts. They represent the school well.

Let's Go Duke!

Duvall
03-27-2009, 12:42 AM
I just wonder when we're going to be able to stop saying this at the end of the year. Feels like we've been saying that forever.

What's forever, five years? The other option is having a complete team and dealing with having choked. Well, that and having the one team of 340 that doesn't end it's year with a loss.

Coballs
03-27-2009, 12:42 AM
Be glad you don't live in Philly.

I live in Philly. You got anything else?

jipops
03-27-2009, 12:42 AM
I don't think tonight was a bad match-up.

Duke had open looks early and didn't knock them down. They played solid defense on Nova, holding them to 26 points and 35% shooting. The problem is, Duke shot 29% in the first half and scored just 23.

It's not like Nova was overwhelmingly dominant. They wore Duke down. Towards the middle of the 2nd half, Duke was just jacking up shots anywhere because they were finally open. No consistent flow at all. No rhythm.

Part of that is credit to Nova's D, but I also think that 58 fouls in a game, particularly an NCAA tourny game, is a LOT of fouls. I am in no way saying the refs cost Duke the game, but I will say that the officiating dictated the tone of the game and made it very difficult to get into any sort of rhythm. Nova mainly got their points off of turnovers or defensive breakdowns; it's not like they shot that great other than the wide open layups.

If you don't think 58 fouls is a lot of fouls, let's look at the numbers from the other games:

Pitt-Xavier: 30 fouls
UConn-Purdue: 38 fouls
Memphis-Mizzou: 49 fouls

Memphis-Mizzou had a lot of fouls late because Memphis was fouling to comeback. In the Duke game, there were 54 fouls with 4 minutes left.

I really don't want to hear about anyone saying I'm whining, because I'm not. I'm also not saying it's why Duke lost, or why Nova won. I'm saying it affected the tone of the game. They called the light, ticky tack stuff and let the bumps, grabs and off the ball stuff go.

The 2nd half was just awful. Duke kept shooting like crap, Nova started hitting some shots. I thought for a bit there, when Nova was jacking up three after three with a 16 point lead and 9 minutes left, that Duke was primed for a comeback. But every time they'd get a big basket or get to the line, they'd just do something stupid, like throw it out of bounds or jack up an ill-advised 3 early into the shot clock.

Hopefully next year will be better and Singler and Henderson come back. This is a strong team and will only get better if everyone stays.

Thank you very much for a calm, though out reflection of tonight's game. I had a very sinking feeling about this one during halftime. Though we were only down 3 with our D playing fairly well, Nova had completely disrupted our offense the last 10 minutes of the half and was really missing a lot of open looks. My thought was once those shots start going down, this game could blow wide open, unfortunately that is what happened.

K kept Zoubek in the game with heavy minutes which I'm sure was not his game plan going in. Unfortunately we still didn't have anything to counter with. Everyone knew Nova was going to spread the floor, I thought we did a great job of switching in the 1st half. But when shots continue to bounce out and the offense begins to wear down, the defense starts to wear down and that's what we saw in the 2nd. Nova simply had better players on the floor tonight.

I'm also pissed cause I knew I should have picked Missouri over Memphis in my bracket. Why did I not pull the trigger on that pick? I'd be killing it in my pool right now if I had gone with my gut.

Ian
03-27-2009, 12:43 AM
Moving Scheyer to the point was absolutely the right move, but Scheyer not being a true PG is also absolutely the truth as well.

Jon is the on with the best PG skills on *this team*, so it was absolutely the right move to put him there. But he's still not the kind of PG that you need to go deep in the tourney. You need a PG that can consistently break down the other's team's defense off the dribble. Remember who Lawson did to us? Remember what JWill and Hurley used to do? That's how you make FF runs.

tysi1521
03-27-2009, 12:43 AM
THANK YOU SENIORS! You guys will be missed and good luck in your future endeavors. I would love to see Paulus standing on the Duke sidelines for a long time. With a senior season like Paulus had, I think it is safe to say that he is a real man with gigantic balls. I don't know anybody else who could have handled his situation the way he did. THANKS AGAIN!

Capn Poptart
03-27-2009, 12:44 AM
Coach K and the guys did a great job midseason turning around a season that could have completely imploded. An ACC championship and a Sweet 16 appearance was more than I thought possible at that point. Congrats, guys.

The 3 was one of our strengths, but it's like road tripping in an old car. Tonight the car died.

Once again, we're still a couple of elite athletes away from a return to the promised land.

KyDevilinIL
03-27-2009, 12:44 AM
I just wonder when we're going to be able to stop saying this at the end of the year. Feels like we've been saying that forever.

I agree. I'm trying to find a silver lining. I hate to be too negative, because I really thought we could make a regional final this season. Nova's defense played a part, but I think also Duke has developed a regional semifinal complex. I did not anticipate we'd turn in such a horrible performance at this point yet again, but we just seemed kind of out of it mentally.

Frankly, unless we somehow get a lot quicker, stronger and more athletic – and unless we develop a real, legitimate post threat – I'm not quite convinced we're going to be as dominant next season as some folks seem to believe. Even if everyone's back, we could be a very similar team in 09-10. After three years, it's painfully obvious that we can't hide behind our shooting any more, and I don't see the incoming fixes that some apparently do.

geraldsneighbor
03-27-2009, 12:44 AM
Thanks Greg, Dave and Marty for what you guys did.

Greg....this might be the toughest good bye I have ever had to say. This is is really tough. These guys battled to 30 wins. People can say what they want, but they represented Duke in a class manner always. They graduated. What else do people want?


G and Kyle: It'll be a pleasure to have you guys back next year. Kyle, you battled your I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. off tonight.


Guys, thanks for the memories. It was an unbelievable ride.

Virginian
03-27-2009, 12:44 AM
Thanks, guys, for a great year. I really enjoyed it.

As for tonight, I didn't think Nova was all that great or "manhandled" us. We just really played poorly. We got in foul trouble and missed just about every shot we put up. Yes, Nova pressured our guys, but we also missed many wide open shots that we should have made. If we had made just three or four more 3-pointers (well within our season average) we'd have been right into the game. Then we got down and Nova went to the free throw line about 6 trips in a row and that was the game.

Nova's good, but no better than we are. We just played really poorly tonight. But, all in all a fine season and I wish all the departing players well.

I do think that given their performance tonight, it's unlikely Kyle or G will leave for the NBA. Just my guess.

CoachJ10
03-27-2009, 12:44 AM
Duke shot 28% from the floor...on *open* looks. This was a bizarro night...plain and simple.

Our guys could not get a break in the first half...and we all know how important momentum is in college basketball. In the first 5 mins of the game...Kyle had open looks...they just didn't go in. A missed goal-tending call...a missed out of bonds call...Gerald not finishing into the lane...rebounds that just didn't bounce in our direction...so many things that did not go our way. And we were only down by 3 because we played solid defense and made them take difficult shots.

We were all expecting us to shoot better when the 2nd half started...and when we didn't...we lost momentum for the rest of the game. Nova got confidence and we lost it. There is nothing more frustrating for a player than to keep missing shots that he should make. That was the game.

devildownunder
03-27-2009, 12:45 AM
Someone give me a positive thought so I can actually go to bed.

Elliot Williams is a freshman :)

NSDukeFan
03-27-2009, 12:45 AM
Thank you Greg, Dave and Marty, all the best and sorry to see it end like this. Man, Villanova played tough D (we did as well in the first half). I really thought we would turn it around (shooting) in the second half, but unfortunately, we still had trouble getting good looks, missed when we did and they took advantage.

Ian
03-27-2009, 12:45 AM
I don't think there is good perspective by DBR posters and Duke fans regarding tonight's loss. Either that, or some fans like you are new to Duke basketball, are too young to remember the past 20 years accurately, or just don't have a good memory.

The last loss which was like this was in 2000. We were absolutely run out of the gym by Florida in - fittingly - the Sweet 16. The 2000 team was far more talented, but it was the most similar loss to this one against Villanova.

We ran out of gas in that game, we did not get dominated in that game like we did tonight.

geraldsneighbor
03-27-2009, 12:45 AM
I live in Philly. You got anything else?

It sucks tonight.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-27-2009, 12:46 AM
I just wonder when we're going to be able to stop saying this at the end of the year. Feels like we've been saying that forever.

unless you are under the age of 12, you need a longer memory. do a little wikipedia search and don't forget how fortunate we have been.

duke basketball has plenty of wonderful memories for me. i still remember K's first final four - i was 7 years old. i remember 11 ACC championships, 3 national titles, and 10 final fours.

let's not allow this disappointing loss to stain the good stuff we have been lucky enough to witness.

devildownunder
03-27-2009, 12:46 AM
Duke shot 28% from the floor...on *open* looks. This was a bizarro night...plain and simple.

Our guys could not get a break in the first half...and we all know how important momentum is in college basketball. In the first 5 mins of the game...Kyle had open looks...they just didn't go in. A missed goal-tending call...a missed out of bonds call...Gerald not finishing into the lane...rebounds that just didn't bounce in our direction...so many things that did not go our way. And we were only down by 3 because we played solid defense and made them take difficult shots.

We were all expecting us to shoot better when the 2nd half started...and when we didn't...we lost momentum for the rest of the game. Nova got confidence and we lost it. There is nothing more frustrating for a player than to keep missing shots that he should make. That was the game.

I do not know what game you were watching. We did not have a ton of open looks. We had to fight for every shot we got and had several possessions on which we had none. Maybe you mean late in the 2nd half after things had just broken down.

buddy
03-27-2009, 12:46 AM
This was as bad as UNLV, without the championship implications. I expected a tough game and am not surprised we lost, but am surprised we did not compete. Jon proved he is not a big game point guard. He was cautious and tentative when he needed to be aggressive. Everyone was short arming their 3 balls. We missed open cutters, then telegraphed passes. This game had the smell of Clemson. I hope they get over it, but this kind of loss can produce lingering psychological injuries. To even think that G would jump to the NBA after this performance is unthinkable, but might happen. With the exception of Kyle, and Zoubs, I'm not certain anyone can lay claim to any accomplishment in this game. And it is clear that the coaching staff was as mystified as the players as to what to do next. This is a very sorry way to end the season. We proved that without defensive turnovers we have no offense. Our half court game, if you can call it that, was stagnant, had no zip of pizazz. Which probably explains why we shot around 27% from the field, similarly to what the women did in their recent embarrassment to Michigan State. I hope the coaches and the team have an answer next year. Whatever wonderful new ideas and energies were brough to the table expired last weekend. We need a better program, and better execution, next year.

Oriole Way
03-27-2009, 12:47 AM
While I agree with you, do you not think we need a true point guard? I don't think we have post issues. Beating teams like FSU, Texas, Wake - post play doesn't matter. We still need a point guard. We don't have one. The last time we had a true point guard was Duhon. And I don't think there is any disputing that

I do. I'd like to pick up Eric Bledsoe for next season. It's been a major flaw in Coach K's recruiting since Duhon graduated. Unfortunately, Greg Paulus not panning out as PG set this program back about 5 years.

But if Bledsoe does not qualify, or we do not land him, we will need Scheyer to run the point until/if Nolan Smith can improve. Even if we get Bledsoe, I doubt he would be capable of running the team as a freshman. I am becoming more convinced that Nolan is simply a combo guard, but I wouldn't be surprised if he works on his skills over the summer and drastically improves.

RepoMan
03-27-2009, 12:47 AM
I don't think there is good perspective by DBR posters and Duke fans regarding tonight's loss. Either that, or some fans like you are new to Duke basketball, are too young to remember the past 20 years accurately, or just don't have a good memory.

The last loss which was like this was in 2000. We were absolutely run out of the gym by Florida in - fittingly - the Sweet 16. The 2000 team was far more talented, but it was the most similar loss to this one against Villanova.

I hate to get into a quibble about our worst performances in the tourney, but this was a much worse performance by a much more expereinced team than was the perfomance in 2000.

CDu
03-27-2009, 12:47 AM
If you would have told me before the game that we'd hold Reynolds, Fisher, and Cunningham to a combined 11-34 from the field and only 36 points, I'd have said we'd win by ten. We did just that, and lost by 23. It's just unfathomable that Henderson and Scheyer could both be so ineffective. They had a great gameplan against those two guys, and we simply had no answer. Singler played hard, but even he didn't have a good night offensively. He was just the least ineffective guy on our team.

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 12:47 AM
I do not know what game you were watching. We did not have a ton of open looks. We had to fight for every shot we got and had several possessions on which we had none. Maybe you mean late in the 2nd half after things had just broken down.

In the first 5-10 minutes, Duke had PLENTY of open looks. They were dribble-driving and kicking out. The shots were either short or rimming in and out. Very frustrating.

Then Nova kicked up the defense more, and well... the rest is history.

LaettnerWannabe
03-27-2009, 12:49 AM
"Umm, how many super stars do you need on a team? We had two super stars on the team this year and one really really good player alongside them. They just got dominated tonight, unfortunately.

When your three stars go 9-45 from the field, you're going to lose. It's disappointing that Henderson and Scheyer didn't have it at all tonight.

Hats off to Villanova, who just flat out outplayed us."

I'm trying to bash anybody, but I don't think there were any superstars on this team. It was a team of good players who, more or less, got the most out of their current abilities. The team should be proud of what it accomplished. Unfortunately, even if everyone comes back, I think another Sweet 16 or maybe an Elite 8 is a realistic expectation for next year's team.

eddiehaskell
03-27-2009, 12:49 AM
I was more upset when we hit a skid in Febuary than I am now. Surprising. I guess the ACC Championship and sweet 16 kinda helped.

jv001
03-27-2009, 12:49 AM
At the beginning of the year, I was worried about Zoubek playing the post after all his injuries. I was worried about Greg having to guard the opponents point guard. I was worried about Kyle wearing down. There were other worries but those stick out in my mind. Well I think the team and coaching staff answered most to those questions. Zoubs played well, Greg did not have to play defense on the ball much, Kyle did not tire out. We had a pretty healthy year and we won the conference. So I'm not going to knock the team or Coaching Staff. Can't wait till next year. Time to get out the golf clubs. Go Duke!

CDu
03-27-2009, 12:49 AM
I hate to get into a quibble about our worst performances in the tourney, but this was a much worse performance by a much more expereinced team than was the perfomance in 2000.

Agreed. Against UF, we had a very good chance to win (had the lead late). In this game, we were out of it with about 15 minutes to go. And as you said, that 2000 team was really young, while this team was very experienced.

bjornolf
03-27-2009, 12:51 AM
Part of that is credit to Nova's D, but I also think that 58 fouls in a game, particularly an NCAA tourny game, is a LOT of fouls. I am in no way saying the refs cost Duke the game, but I will say that the officiating dictated the tone of the game and made it very difficult to get into any sort of rhythm. Nova mainly got their points off of turnovers or defensive breakdowns; it's not like they shot that great other than the wide open layups.

If you don't think 58 fouls is a lot of fouls, let's look at the numbers from the other games:

Pitt-Xavier: 30 fouls
UConn-Purdue: 38 fouls
Memphis-Mizzou: 49 fouls


Ferryfor50-
You're right, 58 fouls would be a ridiculous number of fouls. That would be almost 3.5 fouls per player with 18 players playing. I was looking at ESPN's boxscore, there were only 47 fouls listed there. Still a lot, but not even the most in the games you listed. Maybe ESPN lost 11 fouls somewhere. Where did you get the 58 number?

CDu
03-27-2009, 12:52 AM
I'm trying to bash anybody, but I don't think there were any superstars on this team. It was a team of good players who, more or less, got the most out of their current abilities. The team should be proud of what it accomplished. Unfortunately, even if everyone comes back, I think another Sweet 16 or maybe an Elite 8 is a realistic expectation for next year's team.

I disagree. It's easy to say after a terrible night that we didn't have superstars, but that's simply not accurate. Henderson was one of the top 3-4 players in ACC play this year, and was absolutely dominant for a long stretch of the season. Singler nearly led the team in every statistical category and was a 2nd team All-ACC player. Those are superstars. They just didn't have it tonight.

devildownunder
03-27-2009, 12:53 AM
In the first 5-10 minutes, Duke had PLENTY of open looks. They were dribble-driving and kicking out. The shots were either short or rimming in and out. Very frustrating.

Then Nova kicked up the defense more, and well... the rest is history.

We got a few looks in the first 4 minutes, if that long. I think it was more like 3. We were up 5-0 then they went on an 11-0 run. We spent the majority of the first half battling the shot clock to find an open look. Their D in the first half was outstanding.

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 12:53 AM
Ferryfor50-
You're right, 58 fouls would be a ridiculous number of fouls. That would be almost 3.5 fouls per player with 18 players playing. I was looking at ESPN's boxscore, there were only 47 fouls. Still a lot, but not even the most in the games you listed. Maybe ESPN lost 11 fouls somewhere. Where did you get the 58 number?

Crud. My frustration with this loss killed my math skillz. Good catch. :P

47 fouls is STILL a lot of fouls, though.

Defenserules
03-27-2009, 12:53 AM
Good season. Not elite and not great. I love watching this and every Duke team play, but I hate the feeling of having to watch other teams and fans continue to play and be excited about basketball and feeling like the season is over. I also am tired of having to pull against UNC after we lose.

I think we have good enough players to be really good but what has made us elite in the past and what will make us elite in the future is to have one or two really tough kids. Kids that won't let themselves have bad nights. Kids that lose their shot and can take it to rim so it doesn't matter. That kid might be on our team right now but I haven't seen him. Not like our elite teams. There is no JJ, there is no Boozer or Baiter or J will or Dawkins or Brand the list could go on and on.

Finally I hate losing but I hate even more being embarrassed. We didn't look like we belonged on the court with those guys tonight and that's a tough pill to swallow.

I'll end with a positive. Spring game is in three weeks and the football team looks to be building the type of toughness that the basketball team has been lacking. Say what you will, they might lose more than they win, but in Cut's first year I never felt like we were out toughed. K might have as much to learn from Cut as Cut could learn from K. With the kind of perforamance we had tonight maybe my dream of Duke being a football school is not as far off as many might think.

crote
03-27-2009, 12:53 AM
However, if we had shot 35-40% from three in the first half, we would have had a healthy lead and some swagger going into halftime, and it would have been a completely different game.

I agree 100% with this. This is everything, or close to it.

People have pointed to coaching, officiating, athleticism, game planning, substitutions, recruiting strategy, the phases of the moon, the strength of the yen, you name it, to explain why we lost this game. That's all rubbish. We lost because we shot very, very poorly.

Nova played great team defense, and that certainly contributed to our shooting woes. But we still had plenty of wide open looks that just didn't go down. If we hit our shots, not only do we score points but Nova has to adjust defensively, which frees G up, and we're looking at a very different game.

That's it. It's basketball. Games like that happen. Oh well.

Fun year, fun team, look forward to seeing how much we've progressed next fall. Go Zags.

AtlDuke72
03-27-2009, 12:53 AM
30 wins and an ACC championship. If you aren't happy with that you should just find something else to spend your time on. This team played great all year with the exception of a couple of games . That is how sport operates. One team goes home happy at the end and it is not a birthright. I hope this group all comes back because they have a chance to be the one to win it all next year. Thanks for a great season!

CoachJ10
03-27-2009, 12:54 AM
In the first 5-10 minutes, Duke had PLENTY of open looks. They were dribble-driving and kicking out. The shots were either short or rimming in and out. Very frustrating.

Then Nova kicked up the defense more, and well... the rest is history.

Or the *open look* shots that weren't even attempted like when Z was 3 feet from the hoop unguarded and he passes to Jon 20 feet away...

The larger point was that this was a 3 sigma event for us offensively (on the left side of the distribution). Some of that was Nova...but most of it was just the ball not going down...

Oriole Way
03-27-2009, 12:54 AM
I hate to get into a quibble about our worst performances in the tourney, but this was a much worse performance by a much more expereinced team than was the perfomance in 2000.

Fine, I'll concede tonight was a worse loss. I'm not really bothered by the fact we were experienced and still got blown out. I think the fact K wasn't able to have them ready to compete is concerning.

I'm happy with the season overall, but it's frustrating to lose the same way for three straight years.

Either way, I just hope Gerald comes back for his senior season. We can win a title even with our lack of a true point, but K needs to do some work as well to ensure we don't become so reliant on jump shots.

DevilYouthCoach
03-27-2009, 12:54 AM
No one has mentioned the fact that Duke's best squads have always included at least one bona fide All American player. AS recently as 2004 we even had two! Both seniors. This team has some very good players, but no All Americans. Next year, we might have one, if everyone continues to improve. And if G even hints about going pro this summer, someone should send him the sad tale of William Avery, wherever he is. G is a very unfinished player right now --terrific talent far from fully developed.

I will be interested in seeing K's response to this team going forward -- does he still want his teams to reach the absolute top?

Sgt. Dingleberry
03-27-2009, 12:55 AM
As everybody said Nova is a mirror image of us, but more athletic...

This could have been even worse, but they only shot 4/18 from 3...

Bottom line, we are a JUMP SHOOTING TEAM...When Scheyer/Henderson go 4/32 from the field this is what happens....We live by the jump shot and die by it...We are not a good passing team, we are not a good driving team against good defenses, we are a jump shooting team.

When you get to the tournament you have to win 6 games...If you are a jump shooting team, it is really, really, really hard to shoot well all 6 games...We played tentative and soft and our shots weren't falling, we didn't have much of a chance to win...

That being said, we were the ACC Champs and had a good year...

Also, it helps we lost to Nova, I really like Jay Wright and like the Nova kids. Good luck to them...

CardinalBlue
03-27-2009, 12:55 AM
I don't think there is good perspective by DBR posters and Duke fans regarding tonight's loss. Either that, or some fans like you are new to Duke basketball, are too young to remember the past 20 years accurately, or just don't have a good memory.

The last loss which was like this was in 2000. We were absolutely run out of the gym by Florida in - fittingly - the Sweet 16. The 2000 team was far more talented, but it was the most similar loss to this one against Villanova.

The loss to Florida was tough... but we lost by 9... that's not exactly 23. Also, 2000 was a down year compared to the years preceding it. This is the best team we've had in the past 5 years... and we got run out of the gym embarrassingly. Not only did we get blown out, but in the process we seemed to just completely lose our confidence and our will to win.

I know this is a tough break for a really good team with a lot of heart, but as a fan... it's pretty rough to see such high hopes get shattered this badly, and it's really painful to watch a great team go out on such a sour note.

1999ballboy
03-27-2009, 12:55 AM
I wonder if any team has ever won a game in which their two best players shot 4-32.

devildownunder
03-27-2009, 12:57 AM
I disagree. It's easy to say after a terrible night that we didn't have superstars, but that's simply not accurate. Henderson was one of the top 3-4 players in ACC play this year, and was absolutely dominant for a long stretch of the season. Singler nearly led the team in every statistical category and was a 2nd team All-ACC player. Those are superstars. They just didn't have it tonight.

I would call Singler and Henderson stars but not superstars. They are this team's brightest stars, for sure, but superstars are truly special, special players who dominate night in, night out.

I guess everybody has their own definition.

calltheobvious
03-27-2009, 12:57 AM
Crud. My frustration with this loss killed my math skillz. Good catch. :P

47 fouls is STILL a lot of fouls, though.

Sometimes team shoot poorly.

And sometimes teams foul.

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 12:57 AM
Or the *open look* shots that weren't even attempted like when Z was 3 feet from the hoop unguarded and he passes to Jon 20 feet away...

The larger point was that this was a 3 sigma event for us offensively (on the left side of the distribution). Some of that was Nova...but most of it was just the ball not going down...

Honestly, that was a better shot opportunity. Z was not going to score that basket... he had to beat a defender coming over still. And a wide open Scheyer? For the past month, that's been deadly.

AluminumDuke
03-27-2009, 12:58 AM
I don't think there is good perspective by DBR posters and Duke fans regarding tonight's loss. Either that, or some fans like you are new to Duke basketball, are too young to remember the past 20 years accurately, or just don't have a good memory.

The last loss which was like this was in 2000. We were absolutely run out of the gym by Florida in - fittingly - the Sweet 16. The 2000 team was far more talented, but it was the most similar loss to this one against Villanova.

Not to argue, but I didn't say the last loss like this was in 1990, I said that 1990 was the last season that I personally felt this way after a loss. I just hadn't yet developed the empathy for the team in 2000 that I had for the 1990 team, and have since developed for this one.

I am sorry that my having only followed Duke basketball since 1984 makes me too new to Duke basketball to remember the last 20 years accurately.

LaettnerWannabe
03-27-2009, 12:58 AM
I disagree. It's easy to say after a terrible night that we didn't have superstars, but that's simply not accurate. Henderson was one of the top 3-4 players in ACC play this year, and was absolutely dominant for a long stretch of the season. Singler nearly led the team in every statistical category and was a 2nd team All-ACC player. Those are superstars. They just didn't have it tonight.

I guess my definition of a superstar is a player who can consistently take over a game when his team needs it most. I just haven't seen that out of any of these guys yet. I'm not saying it won't happen next year, but I don't think any of them are at that level yet. They have the talent to do it though.

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 12:58 AM
Sometimes team shoot poorly.

And sometimes teams foul.

And sometimes both happen.

kinghoops
03-27-2009, 12:59 AM
30 wins and an ACC championship. If you aren't happy with that you should just find something else to spend your time on. This team played great all year with the exception of a couple of games . That is how sport operates. One team goes home happy at the end and it is not a birthright. I hope this group all comes back because they have a chance to be the one to win it all next year. Thanks for a great season!

very well stated!!! if anyone hear didnt think if duke had another cold shooting nite, this would happen, then they were just fooling themselves. i hate to lose as much as anyone, but on this particular nite, nova was the better team, plain and simple.

i enjoyed all that was gotten out of this team, a 30 win season, an acc championship, all with not the most talent in the world. i look forward to next season and everyone coming back, and all i can say now is....GO ZAGS!!!!!!!

DukeCO2009
03-27-2009, 12:59 AM
Wow...where to start? From the perspective of a senior, this loss was especially tough. Freshman year, we probably should have won the national championship, but we came up short. Sophomore year, everyone and his mother knew from the get-go that the team's chemistry problems would be its downfall; nevertheless, the season still managed to underwhelm. Last year was better--we underachieved, but you could feel the pieces of very good, perhaps ever greta team coming together.

This year, I really thought we could make noise. People were counting us out, which is generally when K is at his best. He coached a fantastic season, got at times Herculean contributions from three excellent players, won thirty games, and took down the ACC title. We overcame the obligatory mid-season stumble--the one that tends to act as a litmus test for toughness and the "it" factor. Everything seemed to be falling into place--perhaps a title was too much to expect, but a deep run in March was certainly within reason. Then...BAM!

Tonight was, to put it mildly, horrible. This looked like a quasi-Michigan game to me almost from the start: we were getting good looks, but the shots just weren't falling. You can't really do much when that happens, which is the frustrating part. Still, we had a chance to make things interesting. I think we had cut it to twelve when Jon came down the floor at about 700mph and launched a leaning three that clanged off the rim. That play was a microcosm of the latter stages of the game, IMO--impatient basketball. The game is obviously a lot closer if G and Jon are playing up to the high standards they've set for themselves, but to put everything on them is rather silly. The bottom line is that we made a lot of hasty decisions with the ball, took a lot of frustrated bad shots because our good shots weren't falling, and failed to capitalize when 'Nova was missing shots during the last eight or so minutes. Sigh...

I really admire those of you who can remain so positive after a loss like this. I thought about making a nice and cheery post, but it would have just been a front. Me? I'm way down in the dumps and horribly upset that we flamed out again. It's tough to see your classmates (Greg and Marty--Dave had already been here a year when I got to school) walk off the court disappointed for a fourth straight year. We have the talent, especially if Kyle and G stay, to be a Final Four-or-bust-favored-in-every-game-we-play team next year, so I'm certainly not writing off our future. All I'm saying is that I won't forget this one for a while. It stings. I've been through some painful sports losses, but this about takes the cake.

bjornolf
03-27-2009, 12:59 AM
Oh, and I TOTALLY forgot to post this. Congratulations to Villanova. They went out there and did EXACTLY what they had to do to beat us. They executed a good game plan to perfection. I don't think we're giving Villanova enough credit here. They played really well. We didn't. The result was a 20+ point loss and the end of a solid season.

Thanks again to all the guys for a good season.

calltheobvious
03-27-2009, 01:00 AM
Or the *open look* shots that weren't even attempted like when Z was 3 feet from the hoop unguarded and he passes to Jon 20 feet away...

That was the first time in three months the ball's been entered into the post to Zoubek in a scoring situation. I'll give him a pass for not looking immediately to score the ball.

geraldsneighbor
03-27-2009, 01:00 AM
As the saying goes, "It is what it is." The kids will regroup and be back. It just hurts that cast won't include Greg, Dave, and Marty.

Oriole Way
03-27-2009, 01:00 AM
Not to argue, but I didn't say the last loss like this was in 1990, I said that 1990 was the last season that I personally felt this way after a loss. I just hadn't yet developed the empathy for the team in 2000 that I had for the 1990 team, and have since developed for this one.

I am sorry that my having only followed Duke basketball since 1984 makes me too new to Duke basketball to remember the last 20 years accurately.

I didn't say you haven't followed Duke basketball for a long time. Just that I thought the most similar loss was more recent than 1990.

However, you're probably right and I'm probably wrong. Just in terms of scoring margin and a pure blow it, tonight was indeed as bad as 1990.

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 01:01 AM
I didn't say you haven't followed Duke basketball for a long time. Just that I thought the most similar loss was more recent than 1990.

However, you're probably right and I'm probably wrong. Just in terms of scoring margin and a pure blow it, tonight was indeed as bad as 1990.

At least 1990 was in the final four against a super power and not in the sweet 16 against a team that wasn't even the best in its own conference.

CoachJ10
03-27-2009, 01:02 AM
Honestly, that was a better shot opportunity. Z was not going to score that basket... he had to beat a defender coming over still. And a wide open Scheyer? For the past month, that's been deadly.

Z had a layup if he turns to the hoop.

But even then...Jon was wide open...so a double whammy. Further proof of a bizarro offensive night.

1999ballboy
03-27-2009, 01:03 AM
The last loss which was like this was in 2000. We were absolutely run out of the gym by Florida in - fittingly - the Sweet 16. The 2000 team was far more talented, but it was the most similar loss to this one against Villanova.

This post just actually made me feel a lot better because it reminded me of something. The 2000 team wasn't all that different from the 2001 team. They just needed another year to come together. The difference, of course, is that that team still had players from a final four team in 1999 in Battier and James, but this is nonetheless encouraging. Especially if G stays, next year could be our year.

Oriole Way
03-27-2009, 01:03 AM
At least 1990 was in the final four against a super power and not in the sweet 16 against a team that wasn't even the best in its own conference.

That's yet another reason I believe tonight and 2000 are more similar than any other NCAA losses.

Florida finished first in their division but LSU was the class of the SEC and was the highest seeded SEC team, and Arkansas won the SEC tourney that year.

CoachJ10
03-27-2009, 01:03 AM
Or the *open look* shots that weren't even attempted like when Z was 3 feet from the hoop unguarded and he passes to Jon 20 feet away...

That was the first time in three months the ball's been entered into the post to Zoubek in a scoring situation. I'll give him a pass for not looking immediately to score the ball.

We should have been posting Kyle and G a lot more. Kyle could have been incredibly effective tonight from the low blocks.

Oriole Way
03-27-2009, 01:04 AM
This post just actually made me feel a lot better because it reminded me of something. The 2000 team wasn't all that different from the 2001 team. They just needed another year to come together. The difference, of course, is that that team still had players from a final four team in 1999 Battier and James), but this is nonetheless encouraging. Especially if G stays, next year could be our year.

I agree. Gerald really is the difference between a title favorite and another Sweet 16 flame-out.

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 01:05 AM
That's yet another reason I believe tonight and 2000 are more similar than any other NCAA losses.

I feel like this one is more like the Cal loss. A mediocre showing against a team Duke should have beaten.

geraldsneighbor
03-27-2009, 01:05 AM
We should have been posting Kyle and G a lot more. Kyle could have been incredibly effective tonight from the low blocks.

Kyle busted his [tail] off tonight. When you shoot 26%, you won't win. It sucks but it is how it is. This team was a lot of fun to follow. I'll miss them like crazy.

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 01:06 AM
I agree. Gerald really is the difference between a title favorite and another Sweet 16 flame-out.

Gerald from the Wake game is the difference. Not Gerald from the past 2 games.

MulletMan
03-27-2009, 01:07 AM
I agree. Gerald really is the difference between a title favorite and another Sweet 16 flame-out.

You do realize that there are only 8 teams every year that get past the Sweet 16 right?

CoachJ10
03-27-2009, 01:07 AM
Kyle busted his [tail] off tonight. When you shoot 26%, you won't win. It sucks but it is how it is. This team was a lot of fun to follow. I'll miss them like crazy.

You are right, Kyle did play hard...heck he plays hard every night. Just thought he had an advantage down low that he could have used tonight.

geraldsneighbor
03-27-2009, 01:07 AM
Gerald from the Wake game is the difference. Not Gerald from the past 2 games.

Maybe he hit a wall. His minutes were way up this year.

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 01:08 AM
You do realize that there are only 8 teams every year that get past the Sweet 16 right?

8 ELITE teams? :p

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 01:09 AM
Maybe he hit a wall. His minutes were way up this year.

Possibly. To me, it seemed more like he forced the issue more than earlier in the season. Maybe got too good too soon? In other words, stop taking 20 shots against double teams when you have other guys open?

Oriole Way
03-27-2009, 01:10 AM
You do realize that there are only 8 teams every year that get past the Sweet 16 right?

Yes, so what?

I'm saying I think we can win it all if Gerald comes back. I don't think we can if he doesn't, and I don't think we can advance any further than the sweet 16 if he doesn't. That's a huge difference made by one player.

BlueintheFace
03-27-2009, 01:10 AM
First and Foremost, Great Season ACC champs. I am proud of Marty, Dave, and Greg, who will all be graduating with a degree from Duke University and 4 years worth of basketball and friends.

I have to say though, this game left a really really bad taste in my mouth. I thought we really had 2 Strengths going into this game, Toughness and Gerald Henderson. It turned out, that those two things were our biggest weaknesses.

Toughness: Villanova hand checked and hand checked and basically begged us to drive the ball into their bodies. We never did it. When they hit big shots, we didn't really ever respond with big shots of our own. Our defensive toughness lasted one half before we started giving them uncontested layups. I was 100% sure that if we lost, I would be able to say, "hey we played real tough tonight and they just made a few more plays or hit a few more big shots." I could not have been more incorrect. For a team that has shown SO MUCH toughness recently, this was sad to watch.

Gerald Henderson: 1-14 fg. The one fg he made was with 4 and 1/2 minutes left when the game was pretty much out of reach. I just don't understand why he didn't attack to draw the foul. I just.... I can't understand.

Other Fun Facts: John Scheyer was 3-18. We hit just 16-60 fg tonight for 26% from the field. We hit just 5-27 from three for 18.5% for three. Four players had 4 fouls.

Everything that could go wrong, went wrong... but the two things that I really didn't expect was the lack of toughness and the struggles for G. I was ready to lose, but not like that.

Next Play, Next Season.

LaettnerWannabe
03-27-2009, 01:11 AM
I agree. Gerald really is the difference between a title favorite and another Sweet 16 flame-out.

I'd like to think Duke will be a title favorite next year but, unless the point guard and low post issues can be adequately addressed, I think it will be more of the same.

Seattledukie
03-27-2009, 01:12 AM
I've realized what we have been seeing over the past two years is the evolution of a Duke team. Last year Singler came in, Henderson started realizing what he could do, Singler was a sophomore who was feeling his way through the ACC, and we had a good point guard. This year we saw a team come together later in the season and really found out about themselves, and Scheyer became a really good point guard. Next year the maturity of our team will make a huge difference and I believe we will see the Final Four.

I really like out team for next year.

Thanks for a great season, guys!

Highlander
03-27-2009, 01:12 AM
We return all 5 starters to next year's team (assuming everyone stays), and add two more blue chippers to the mix. I don't think anyone else in the conference can say that, especially not the heels and the 18 seniors on their roster.

Villanova started 3 seniors in their frontcourt. We started zero. In fact we've had one senior starter in the last three years COMBINED. Granted college bball has changed, but that's just incredibly unusual. I'm not trying to discount the contributions of Dave and Greg to this year's team.

Gerald and Jon combined to shoot 12.5% from the floor on 4/32. TWELVE PERCENT. That's not even a good batting average, and it's an atrocious shooting percentage. As others have said, when your two leading scorers shoot 12% from the field, you're going to lose. I'll give Nova credit for playing great defense, but we sure made it easy on them. I wish we wouldn't save our poorest shooting performances for the tournament year after year, but jump shooting teams just don't fare well in the later rounds of the tournament.

I would have loved to have another win to at least hold serve this year, but won't feel as bad if Nova takes Pitt apart on Saturday.

Thanks for a great season. I'm disappointed in the result of this game, but not in the season.

Oriole Way
03-27-2009, 01:12 AM
I'd like to think Duke will be a title favorite next year but, unless the point guard and low post issues can be adequately addressed, I think it will be more of the same.

Low post will be much better with a senior Thomas, senior Zoubek, junior Singler, soph Plumlee and freshman Mason Plumlee. If that doesn't get it done, I don't know what will.

PG will be an issue. But I think Jon and Nolan can get the job done well enough to reach the Final Four (if Henderson comes back).

zingit
03-27-2009, 01:14 AM
Wow...where to start? From the perspective of a senior, this loss was especially tough. Freshman year, we probably should have won the national championship, but we came up short. Sophomore year, everyone and his mother knew from the get-go that the team's chemistry problems would be its downfall; nevertheless, the season still managed to underwhelm. Last year was better--we underachieved, but you could feel the pieces of very good, perhaps ever greta team coming together.

This year, I really thought we could make noise. People were counting us out, which is generally when K is at his best. He coached a fantastic season, got at times Herculean contributions from three excellent players, won thirty games, and took down the ACC title. We overcame the obligatory mid-season stumble--the one that tends to act as a litmus test for toughness and the "it" factor. Everything seemed to be falling into place--perhaps a title was too much to expect, but a deep run in March was certainly within reason. Then...BAM!

Tonight was, to put it mildly, horrible. This looked like a quasi-Michigan game to me almost from the start: we were getting good looks, but the shots just weren't falling. You can't really do much when that happens, which is the frustrating part. Still, we had a chance to make things interesting. I think we had cut it to twelve when Jon came down the floor at about 700mph and launched a leaning three that clanged off the rim. That play was a microcosm of the latter stages of the game, IMO--impatient basketball. The game is obviously a lot closer if G and Jon are playing up to the high standards they've set for themselves, but to put everything on them is rather silly. The bottom line is that we made a lot of hasty decisions with the ball, took a lot of frustrated bad shots because our good shots weren't falling, and failed to capitalize when 'Nova was missing shots during the last eight or so minutes. Sigh...

I really admire those of you who can remain so positive after a loss like this. I thought about making a nice and cheery post, but it would have just been a front. Me? I'm way down in the dumps and horribly upset that we flamed out again. It's tough to see your classmates (Greg and Marty--Dave had already been here a year when I got to school) walk off the court disappointed for a fourth straight year. We have the talent, especially if Kyle and G stay, to be a Final Four-or-bust-favored-in-every-game-we-play team next year, so I'm certainly not writing off our future. All I'm saying is that I won't forget this one for a while. It stings. I've been through some painful sports losses, but this about takes the cake.

Yup. I'm a senior too. You expressed my thoughts exactly. I really thought this year would be different from the past three. I really thought we could go far in this tournament. I could have taken a loss if it had been close, if it had looked like we had belonged on the same court as them. But this was just embarrassing. I am looking forward to watching our team next year, but even if we won the whole dang thing next year, this loss will still hurt, because it is my last year at Duke.

No more Duke basketball this year, men's or women's. Ugh. Can we fast forward to November?

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 01:15 AM
We return all 5 starters to next year's team (assuming everyone stays), and add two more blue chippers to the mix. I don't think anyone else in the conference can say that, especially not the heels and the 18 seniors on their roster.

Villanova started 3 seniors in their frontcourt. We started zero. In fact we've had one senior starter in the last three years COMBINED. Granted college bball has changed, but that's just incredibly unusual. I'm not trying to discount the contributions of Dave and Greg to this year's team.

Gerald and Jon combined to shoot 12.5% from the floor on 4/32. TWELVE PERCENT. That's not even a good batting average, and it's an atrocious shooting percentage. As others have said, when your two leading scorers shoot 12% from the field, you're going to lose. I'll give Nova credit for playing great defense, but we sure made it easy on them. I wish we wouldn't save our poorest shooting performances for the tournament year after year, but jump shooting teams just don't fare well in the later rounds of the tournament.

I would have loved to have another win to at least hold serve this year, but won't feel as bad if Nova takes Pitt apart on Saturday.

Thanks for a great season. I'm disappointed in the result of this game, but not in the season.

Nah, we had one during the Clemson blowout, too. This game was a mirror image, minus Trevor Booker dunking and right down to the jacking up 3s by Nova up big late in the game (see: Oglesby, Terrence).

Kfanarmy
03-27-2009, 01:16 AM
Possibly. To me, it seemed more like he forced the issue more than earlier in the season. Maybe got too good too soon? In other words, stop taking 20 shots against double teams when you have other guys open?

There were stretches there when no one else wanted to shoot...guys got tentative, understandably after all the misses...shooters shoot their way out of slumps, but it didn't happen....interior passing to someone going to the basket/in a more favorable scoring position would help, but the team just hasn't developed good interior passing skills IMO...Z can pass well out of the post, but folks have to get him the ball. The team shot near 50% inside the arc as I said earlier, but it was work to dribble in there, Villanova was passing in when they faced the half court D in the second half. I acknowledge the number of times they drove in when the D wasn't set after a miss, but they had guys going inside and simply made better passes there.

devil in chapel hill
03-27-2009, 01:17 AM
I'm going to miss you Dave - a great career at Duke and a classy, hardworking player - always seemed to to the right thing when handling the ball - and he played hard and with brains.

Good Luck to you Dave - you will me missed!

:(

snewman92
03-27-2009, 01:18 AM
. . .than root for a corrupt program like UCONN even if they win the championship this year

I want to remind all of us, especially you armchair generals training your laserlike basketball genius to dismantle the play of a bunch of 18-22 year-olds who are probably punishing themselves much harder right now than we ever could. . .what's more important even than wins and losses--and 30 wins, an ACC championship and a Sweet 16 ain't too shabby--is that these young men and their coaches represent Duke with integrity and intelligence.

I could go on about the rather ugly sense of entitlement and profound lack of historical perspective I've read in some of the posts tonight. But I'd rather end by thanking the team and thanking the great majority of those who post to DBR, who have taught me so much about basketball and other things.

Next play!

Billy Dat
03-27-2009, 01:18 AM
-I think the subtle first half foul trouble really threw off the rotation. G and Nolan both had some weak fouls and you could tell that K didn't want them picking up 3 before the half. The result was a dizzying variety of line-ups that all lacked scoring punch. I think this fed the confidence of the Nova D, especially those sequences midway through the first half when we could only manage bad 3s at the end of the clock.

-We seemed to start pressing (being nervous, not defensive pressing) pretty early, I think we lost our cool before we had to. This was especially true of G, he was never comfortable out there. On the flip side, I thought Nova really played in control on offense. They didn't rush when they caught it in the lane and the result was a lot of short jumpers and nice passes for backdoor layups when we doubled the pass catcher in the pivot.

-When Kyle stepped to the line for a 1 and 1 with a chance to cut it to 9 with just under 10 to play - I thought that was our moment to make a run. He missed, they made, and it was never close again.

-This reminded me a lot of the LSU game as far as them locking down our perimeter offense. Of course, we had the Landlord back then and he kept us in it with a monster game.

-We really seemed a step slow tonight at every position, which seems crazy. Villanova basically fulfilled most pundits predictions, although I didn't hear their D stressed as much as their guard speed.

-Every year, I hope that Duke is good enough to have a chance to do the following: win an ACC regular season championship, win an ACC Tournament championship, get to the final four, win a national championship. A win or two over UNC never hurts. These guys won an ACC Tournament - that's a part of history and it was fun to watch. For me, however, the win against Wake was the signature win of the year. Now...we've got 8 long months of prognostication....why does the season have to be so short?

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 01:19 AM
There were stretches there when no one else wanted to shoot...guys got tentative, understandably after all the misses...shooters shoot their way out of slumps, but it didn't happen....interior passing to someone going to the basket/in a more favorable scoring position would help, but the team just hasn't developed good interior passing skills IMO...Z can pass well out of the post, but folks have to get him the ball. The team shot near 50% inside the arc as I said earlier, but it was work to dribble in there, Villanova was passing in when they faced the half court D in the second half. I acknowledge the number of times they drove in when the D wasn't set after a miss, but they had guys going inside and simply made better passes there.

Shooters shoot themselves out of slumps, but G isn't much of a shooter just yet. He's a slasher and wasn't doing much of that. And when you slash and you get cut off, you pass out of it; you don't just throw up a prayer.

Devilsfan
03-27-2009, 01:20 AM
Congrats to Coach K for a great coaching year! This team OVERACHIEVED! We all saw what Coach K could do with athletes like he had in China. This team with all its shortcomings at point and in the middle won 30 games and an ACC Championship! What great coaching!!!! Now let's hope we can put all of our efforts into recruiting and get some more athletes.

kinghoops
03-27-2009, 01:21 AM
Yup. I'm a senior too. You expressed my thoughts exactly. I really thought this year would be different from the past three. I really thought we could go far in this tournament. I could have taken a loss if it had been close, if it had looked like we had belonged on the same court as them. But this was just embarrassing. I am looking forward to watching our team next year, but even if we won the whole dang thing next year, this loss will still hurt, because it is my last year at Duke.

No more Duke basketball this year, men's or women's. Ugh. Can we fast forward to November?

EMBARRASED??? there is nothing to be embarrased about to losing to a team that is better than you on a particular nite. this is plain and simply whining!. you shoot 27 percent, you are going to lose. ill take a loss like this anytime, compared to losses in 2004 to uconn.. 8pt lead with 3 mins to play , or 99 to uconn, when we no doubt had the better team, thurmans three in 94. im far from embarrased!!!!

Vincetaylor
03-27-2009, 01:23 AM
"Duke again failed to beat a top-four seed in the NCAA tournament and hasn't beaten one since winning the national title in 2001. The Blue Devils also have not advanced past the Sweet 16 since 2004. "

-Espn


This is a very disturbing trend no matter which way you cut it. K is not the tourney coach that he used to be. We overachieve during the season and underachieve during the tourney. The team should be congratulated for another great regular season, but something certainly isn't clicking in the tourney.

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 01:24 AM
"Duke again failed to beat a top-four seed in the NCAA tournament and hasn't beaten one since winning the national title in 2001. The Blue Devils also have not advanced past the Sweet 16 since 2004. "

-Espn


This is a very disturbing trend no matter which way you cut it. K is not the tourney coach that he used to be. We overachieve during the season and underachieve during the tourney.

I would call making the sweet 16 after not making it the past 2 years progress.

Rome was not built in a day.

Kfanarmy
03-27-2009, 01:26 AM
Shooters shoot themselves out of slumps, but G isn't much of a shooter just yet. He's a slasher and wasn't doing much of that. And when you slash and you get cut off, you pass out of it; you don't just throw up a prayer. He was a shooter tonight, actually I thought he was open, a foot above his defender on a lot of those shots, but no one is moving toward the basket looking for a pass...the inside out game has to be able to adjust so that when outside isn't working you scrap for good shots inside with movement and passing...which is what Nova was doing. I thought the team fought hard, just not effectively given the shooting woes.

KandG
03-27-2009, 01:27 AM
Agreed. Against UF, we had a very good chance to win (had the lead late). In this game, we were out of it with about 15 minutes to go. And as you said, that 2000 team was really young, while this team was very experienced.

Except the 2000 team was much deeper and more talented than this year's team. Apples and oranges.

I know people are emotional and the team caved in the second half, but I think people aren't giving Villanova enough credit. I'm not surprised Nova was able to shut Gerald down, and Jon showed his limitations as a creator of his own shots against a very athletic team. I really thought Kyle and maybe one other player (Nolan, Elliot) would have to take their games to another level for us to have a chance, and it just didn't happen.

I actually thought we did an OK job defensively (apart from some glaring lapses) until midway through the second half, when we wore down and put too much pressure on ourselves (as K said in the post game presser)...some of the shot selection was dreadful. Our offense has been arid in stretches all year against good teams, and this was the first game (outside of Clemson) where it was that way all game.

Congratulations to all the guys and K for a great season. That final margin looks bad, but I feel better about this team than I did the previous two seasons. It was a rough ending, but the team was wonderful to follow. I'm really looking forward to next year.

Scheyer is Boss
03-27-2009, 01:29 AM
I would just like to applaud Greg Paulus. He has stepped into every role that he has been given and fulfilled each role with flying colors. This season he was a fantastic role player and his attitude in dealing with his situation at every point in his career is something that I will always admire and remember.

On another note, I was very disappointed with the game tonight. It seemed as if everything possible went wrong. I can't even remember how many times i stared at my screen in disbelief after a Scottie Reynolds layup or another missed Henderson shot. After such a great season, I am still trying to figure out exactly what went wrong. I guess the one of the few positives we can take from the loss is the fact that it greatly improves the probability that Kyle and Gerald will be back in Duke blue next season. I can't wait to see what Coach K can conjure up next season.

Once again, congrats Greg Paulus on a fantastic career at Duke!

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 01:29 AM
He was a shooter tonight, actually I thought he was open, a foot above his defender on a lot of those shots, but no one is moving toward the basket looking for a pass...the inside out game has to be able to adjust so that when outside isn't working you scrap for good shots inside with movement and passing...which is what Nova was doing. I thought the team fought hard, just not effectively given the shooting woes.

He was getting some decent looks, but Nova was looking to stop his drive and make him beat them outside. Obviously, a good strategy.

A-Tex Devil
03-27-2009, 01:33 AM
Worst. Sweet. Sixteen. Loss. Ever.

Seriously. No shooting, no driving, no coaching adjustments, and most of all, no toughness. I could take a loss. Nova is a good team. This loss sucked and is on every player on coach for simply not showing up.

It's like we watched Nova maul UCLA in the first few minutes of last weeks game, and left our huevos in Durham.

sleepybear
03-27-2009, 01:34 AM
Outside of some early poor shooting Nova played a great game tonight on both ends of the court. I feel like they are he better team and I was not expecting that.
The only positives I can recall for us was Long Singler three, Some nice defense by Zoubek & Williams.

Seemed the officiating was poor all around

We need some skilled meat at center.

We need a true PG who can get to the rim.

I need a Xanax

Since when is Gereld going pro?:eek::eek:

eddiehaskell
03-27-2009, 01:36 AM
I guess we can now see how playing in the big east prepared these teams. 'Nova had 10 games against teams as good or better than Duke.

Teams like Providence, GU, ND, Seton Hall and Cinci aint bad either. I wonder how those teams would've fared in ACC play....

kinghoops
03-27-2009, 01:37 AM
It's not whining--them's the facts. Is it against the rules here to be disappointed?

you want facts, ill give ya some facts, there are 64 losers and ONE winner every year, doesnt matter when you lose and to whom. losing in the sweet 16, elite eight, final four, what does it really matter, except the loss hurts a lil more each step... just ask our friends from down 501

kinghoops
03-27-2009, 01:39 AM
Worst. Sweet. Sixteen. Loss. Ever.

Seriously. No shooting, no driving, no coaching adjustments, and most of all, no toughness. I could take a loss. Nova is a good team. This loss sucked and is on every player on coach for simply not showing up.

It's like we watched Nova maul UCLA in the first few minutes of last weeks game, and left our huevos in Durham.

you seem to forget that mich st thumped us pretty good, in 2005 in your state

jipops
03-27-2009, 01:41 AM
It's not whining--them's the facts. Is it against the rules here to be disappointed?

No, it was whining because it missed a lot of facts and buys into the media blitz of what Duke "hasn't" done. Who else has advanced past the sweet sixteen every year since 2004? Not many, you most likely don't need both hands to count. Why is this somehow seen as a problem for Duke and for no one else?

Who has the most total wins this decade?

marinbobbyduhon
03-27-2009, 01:42 AM
you want facts, ill give ya some facts, there are 64 losers and ONE winner every year, doesnt matter when you lose and to whom. losing in the sweet 16, elite eight, final four, what does it really matter, except the loss hurts a lil more each step... just ask our friends from down 501

You have friends from there? Why on Earth would you do that! ;)

gumbomoop
03-27-2009, 01:43 AM
I don't know that anyone has commented on this point, at least on this thread, but in my area, we got switched to Mo-Mem for its last 6 min, so I missed our game from about the 10-minute mark until the 2-minute mark. I realize I "didn't miss much."

K was at his best at the presser on ESPN, speaking affectionately about his team, without being Roy-like cloying. His analysis of what went wrong was straightforward, about putting too much pressure on themselves too quickly when the lead grew in 2d half.

I've personally had so much fun praising DMc this year; and we all know how much he has deserved all our admiring comments. GP's year was nothing short of bizarre, so perhaps at some point we'll get a fuller accounting of how he dealt with it, and similarly from Marty, for whom I had some expectations, those, too, dashed.

So, for the seniors, Dave's story was a highlight. And I expect to hear more about Marty in Europe and Greg as a rising coach a few years hence.

For the future, well, K is known, I think, for telling it straight, so I'm assuming he'll have very specific things for each returnee to improve on. My own assessment:

Kyle - he seems to have no obvious weaknesses; can he become Laettner-tough?
G - a returnee? sure hope so, for his handle, seen most obviously in going left, is weak. He has Kobe-like spring and sweet jump shot, but mediocre handle for such an otherwise superb athlete
LT - got to harness his chaotic energy, for it's both strength and weakness; inability to finish far too frequently, painful at times; so, how to discipline his game, esp his hands?
Z - good moments tonight, but bad footwork and inadequate block outs fatal
Jon - as with Kyle, few weaknesses; if he plays lots of point next year, I assume he'll work on handle
Nolan - big upside, several weaknesses, starting with irritating habit of silly hand-check fouls; must improve handle, and be much more assertive as driver; he can get to basket and finish, but must have relentless attitude, and he doesn't just yet
EW - handle, handle, handle; free throws, free throws; jump shot; as with Nolan, relentlessness to basket; upside wonderful to look forward to
MP1 - I hope there are minutes for him; he can be very good; I'm with those who'd hoped to see more of him this year

A-Tex Devil
03-27-2009, 01:45 AM
you seem to forget that mich st thumped us pretty good, in 2005 in your state

Not by 23. I watched that MSU game, it was a crappy loss. Certainly less expected than losing to Nova tonight. But we were in that game until maybe the last 3-4 minutes. I remember it (un)fondly for personal reasons I won't bore the board with. We showed up that night and got beat by a hot team. I could also take a loss tonight if we showed up and played like Duke. We didn't show up.

Edited to say -- I consider this season a success for making the sweet sixteen. I really do. I am just absolutely disappointed in how we played tonight. It just wasn't Duke basketball, and honestly, I still think we beat Villanova if we play an average Duke 2008-2009 game. We just picked a bad game to leave our clackers and our shot back in North Carolina.

FireOgilvie
03-27-2009, 01:45 AM
No, it was whining because it missed a lot of facts and buys into the media blitz of what Duke "hasn't" done. Who else has advanced past the sweet sixteen every year since 2004? Not many, you most likely don't need both hands to count. Why is this somehow seen as a problem for Duke and for no one else?

Who has the most total wins this decade?

I think your question points out why it is a problem. We have the most wins in the decade, but we haven't beaten a 4 seed or under in the tournament since 2001. I'm very surprised to hear that is the case, but it's not good considering how many times we've been a 1 or 2 seed.

DukeCO2009
03-27-2009, 01:47 AM
you want facts, ill give ya some facts, there are 64 losers and ONE winner every year, doesnt matter when you lose and to whom. losing in the sweet 16, elite eight, final four, what does it really matter, except the loss hurts a lil more each step... just ask our friends from down 501

I disagree. It certainly does matter when you lose and to whom. When you lose in the Sweet 16 looking like you don't belong in the same building as your opponent, it hurts more than losing a tightly-contested, back-and-forth game in the regional final. It does to me, anyway, As they say, opionions are like--well, you know. Not trying to start anything here, although I wish you wouldn't come down on those of us who are understandably disappointed.

zingit
03-27-2009, 01:47 AM
EMBARRASED??? there is nothing to be embarrased about to losing to a team that is better than you on a particular nite. this is plain and simply whining!. you shoot 27 percent, you are going to lose. ill take a loss like this anytime, compared to losses in 2004 to uconn.. 8pt lead with 3 mins to play , or 99 to uconn, when we no doubt had the better team, thurmans three in 94. im far from embarrased!!!!

You and I will just have to agree to disagree. I'll take a close loss over a blow-out loss any day. I'll take a game in which we're competitive over a game in which everything that could go wrong, does go wrong.

And yes, I do find 23-point losses embarrassing. I can stand losing; it's being completely dominated and out-toughed that is so tough to accept. I'm not whining, I'm not overreacting, I'm not blaming any of our players or coaches, who I know gave it their all. If you are satisfied with what just happened, then bully for you. I, on the other hand, think it was a pretty bad disappointment, and I think anyone on the team would agree with me.

heyman25
03-27-2009, 01:50 AM
A good team would have other options, we don't. We are too one dimensional.
It was still a good season given our personnel. But if we want to go deeper we need better personnel.

2010 is the chance to change the composition of the team. We will be contending from our experience and growth of the players next season.WE got to get Barnes and Irving or Knight.We could use Bledsoe or Darius Smith. We should be better next season, but we need to recruit players with more speed and athleticism like the team that thoroughly trounced us tonight , Villanova.I hear they have the inside track on Kyrie Irving.I hope not.

DukeCO2009
03-27-2009, 01:50 AM
No, it was whining because it missed a lot of facts and buys into the media blitz of what Duke "hasn't" done. Who else has advanced past the sweet sixteen every year since 2004? Not many, you most likely don't need both hands to count. Why is this somehow seen as a problem for Duke and for no one else?

Who has the most total wins this decade?

I'm not saying we should do anything. The ESPN article said nothing inaccurate, though.

DukeCO2009
03-27-2009, 01:52 AM
You and I will just have to agree to disagree. I'll take a close loss over a blow-out loss any day. I'll take a game in which we're competitive over a game in which everything that could go wrong, does go wrong.

And yes, I do find 23-point losses embarrassing. I can stand losing; it's being completely dominated and out-toughed that is so tough to accept. I'm not whining, I'm not overreacting, I'm not blaming any of our players or coaches, who I know gave it their all. If you are satisfied with what just happened, then bully for you. I, on the other hand, think it was a pretty bad disappointment, and I think anyone on the team would agree with me.

Totally agree. Great post.

jipops
03-27-2009, 01:52 AM
Worst. Sweet. Sixteen. Loss. Ever.

Seriously. No shooting, no driving, no coaching adjustments, and most of all, no toughness. I could take a loss. Nova is a good team. This loss sucked and is on every player on coach for simply not showing up.

It's like we watched Nova maul UCLA in the first few minutes of last weeks game, and left our huevos in Durham.



It's also a little difficult to make adjustments you want when one of your main guys is saddled with 3 fouls early on and one of your reliable perimeter defenders gets a 2 quick fouls early in the game. K did try to get Zoubek involved to try take advantage of his height but that wasn't really there enough to take us through. Adjustments are made when there are options available. Unfortunately, there weren't many options tonight but K used what he could. Defensively I thought we did ok, just the offensive struggles wore us down and eventually hurt the D.

I think we showed a lot of toughness tonight. Amazing how when shots aren't going down a team is automatically assumed to lack toughness. Nova played great D, but in the 2nd half there were lots of open looks that just wouldn't go down. Thems the breaks sometimes. We showed up, everyone did. It just didn't work out like we hoped and the team on the other side was simply a lot better.

Classof06
03-27-2009, 01:52 AM
Congrats to Coach K for a great coaching year! This team OVERACHIEVED! We all saw what Coach K could do with athletes like he had in China. This team with all its shortcomings at point and in the middle won 30 games and an ACC Championship! What great coaching!!!! Now let's hope we can put all of our efforts into recruiting and get some more athletes.

I'm not going to sit here and say Duke didn't have a good season. They did win 30 games and an ACCT Championship.

But to say this team overachieved is bullsh-t. Like you just said, this team won 30 games, an ACCT Championship and was a 2 seed. They have at least 7 High School All-Americans on that roster. And they just lost to a team that, albeit slightly, was a lower seeded team. No sensible Duke fan expected an easy game tonight, but there's a reason Duke was a 2-point favorite for this game.

That being said, I cannot say I'm surprised. The question that has haunted Duke for the past two seasons, the question I've been asking about this team, even when everyone thought the insertion of Eliot Williams made us a different team, reared its ugly head again: What happens when the 3s don't fall? What happens? That is a question Duke has not been able to answer in a very long time. Duke is a team that has lived and died with its perimeter shot the past couple years and to win 6 games and a national title, you've got to be able to win when you're not hot from the field. By the time we were 1/8 from 3 in the first half, I knew we were in for it.

The good news? We have two players 6-10 or taller coming in next year to combine with 6-10 Miles Plumlee and a 7-0 Brian Zoubek (who, for all his shortcomings, did his damn job in March when it counted--Thank you, Brian).

I'm glad to say that I don't think the size issue is one Duke will have to deal with anymore. And if Henderson and Singler decide to come back (which I've been confident about all along) then the future is extremely bright. I've said for a while that I would not expect Duke to legitimately contend for a national title until 2009-10. I think next year is a year where we have a seriously real shot; you might sense that I didn't truly believe that this year. And, for the aforementioned reasons above, you'd be right.

It' s been a rough three seasons but each one has been better than the last and things are certainly looking up as we go forward. Go Duke.

-bdbd
03-27-2009, 01:53 AM
Congrats to Coach K for a great coaching year! This team OVERACHIEVED! We all saw what Coach K could do with athletes like he had in China. This team with all its shortcomings at point and in the middle won 30 games and an ACC Championship! What great coaching!!!! Now let's hope we can put all of our efforts into recruiting and get some more athletes.

Coach K did a magificent job this year. He really did. Please recognize this. He got everything possible out of this group of kids, and then some.

Certainly we're sad about the end of the season tonight. But I was just watching Game Day on ESPN and the "talking heads" - Digger, Hubert Davis, Dick Vitale - were recapping the game and how Nova beat us. There seemed to be an endless parade of "Duke can't do this..." and "Duke doesn't have that..." Then Hubert Davis - that old Carolina guy - kinda took a deep breath and said roughly, "Hey, look, this was not a vintage Duke team. They didn't have a true PG (and the injury to Smith really hurt them in terms of his development this year) and they didn't have an inside game either.....BUT THEY STILL WON 30 GAMES, AND MADE THE SWEET 16! Give coach K credit for doing an incredible job with this team". Dickie V then chimed in about hout how he had an article up on his website to that effect...and he gave more platitudes to K. Digger jumped in too. The host - I can never remember his name - who had thrown out several negatives at Duke already during the segment then tried to wrap it up with a "Well, it'll be interesting to see how Duke adjusts their recruiting after this..." (sigh)

I have two thoughts on this exchange : (1) Hooray for Hubert Davis, he was obviously the most clear-headed, factual analyst on the panel -- its easy to see why he and Jay click so well (and he's won my support); but (2) IT WAS GREAT THAT IN THE MIDST OF ONE OF OUR WORST NIGHTS IN A WHILE, EVERYONE UPSET/DISAPPOINTED, THAT THEY COULD STILL RECOGNIZE WHAT A GREAT JOB COACH K HAD DONE. Sometimes we forget that some of K's (and other coaches) best coaching/leading jobs occur in years where they don't win champioships. Look at where the talent level is versus what they achieve, look at real expectations vs actual accomplishment, and some other years come to mind. But this year truly was masterful by Coach. We're very lucky to have the man.

It just deserves to be recognized. :o

-BDBD


P.S. Look for Duke to have a great year in 2009-10. Assuming all key players return, and we get two new STUD inside guys, and maybe even a speedy PG, I really think Duke could crack the preseason top-5. Don't forget, too, our rivals down 15-501 should be down a bit after a lot of talent leaves town. Something to smile about looking ahead. ;)

Lulu
03-27-2009, 01:55 AM
I am for one embarrassed.

A blind monkey could have made some of the passes that the Duke team made tonight.

Lazy, lazy, lazy passes.....was it the Duke team playing tonight, or Octomom at the point?

Maybe we should all move to California, and have welfare give us the Final Four.

I concur on the lazy passes. I noticed this a few times during the game and meant to comment, but never did. Even a lot of the passes that got through were still very lazy. Tentative? Scared?

We keep ending seasons on truly terrible performances. You can perform well and still lose, a lot of teams do, especially in their last game, but that's not Duke lately.

zingit
03-27-2009, 01:57 AM
Coach K said after the game, "I'm disappointed for them, not in them." That sums it up pretty well for me. I know they tried hard. I really do love the guys on this team; every single one of them has exactly the right atttiiiituuuude, as that OTL piece about Nolan put it. I wanted to see a better performance tonight for myself as a fan, but also for them, because they really do seem like good guys. Oh well.

jipops
03-27-2009, 01:58 AM
I'm not saying we should do anything. The ESPN article said nothing inaccurate, though.

It is interesting the sample size they choose to use. So in the point they're tying to make, I would say they are being inaccurate because of what they leave out. And again, why is this stat only pointed out about Duke? How has UConn fared since winning it all in 2004 - have they even made the tourney every year? Where's Kentucky? Where's Florida since winning back-to-back? Where has Syracuse been in the tournament since 2003? What about Arizona since 2001? ... get my drift?

kinghoops
03-27-2009, 01:59 AM
You and I will just have to agree to disagree. I'll take a close loss over a blow-out loss any day. I'll take a game in which we're competitive over a game in which everything that could go wrong, does go wrong.

And yes, I do find 23-point losses embarrassing. I can stand losing; it's being completely dominated and out-toughed that is so tough to accept. I'm not whining, I'm not overreacting, I'm not blaming any of our players or coaches, who I know gave it their all. If you are satisfied with what just happened, then bully for you. I, on the other hand, think it was a pretty bad disappointment, and I think anyone on the team would agree with me.

there is a difference between being disappointed and being embarrassed. im disappointed, but im enough of an observer to know, that we were beaten tonite, by a better team from a better conference. plain and simple.

A-Tex Devil
03-27-2009, 02:03 AM
It's also a little difficult to make adjustments you want when one of your main guys is saddled with 3 fouls early on and one of your reliable perimeter defenders gets a 2 quick fouls early in the game. K did try to get Zoubek involved to try take advantage of his height but that wasn't really there enough to take us through. Adjustments are made when there are options available. Unfortunately, there weren't many options tonight but K used what he could. Defensively I thought we did ok, just the offensive struggles wore us down and eventually hurt the D.

I think we showed a lot of toughness tonight. Amazing how when shots aren't going down a team is automatically assumed to lack toughness. Nova played great D, but in the 2nd half there were lots of open looks that just wouldn't go down. Thems the breaks sometimes. We showed up, everyone did. It just didn't work out like we hoped and the team on the other side was simply a lot better.

Fair enough. I mentioned above that I consider this season a success. I also think we are better than Villanova and played our second worst (maybe worst) game of the year tonight.

But I don't think we were tough tonight at all. The lane was there, but we didn't take it. When we are behind 10-15, foul trouble shouldn't matter at that point. Put your head down and try to draw the foul. The shots certainly weren't dropping. I haven't seen a Duke team avoid taking it inside on a team without a shot blocking presence like that in a long time.

Anyway -- long story short. We lose playing well, I am cool. But we played one of the 2 worst games of the year tonight, and looked EXTREMELY passive in doing so. So I'm not very happy about that.

DukeCO2009
03-27-2009, 02:05 AM
It is interesting the sample size they choose to use. So in the point they're tying to make, I would say they are being inaccurate because of what they leave out. And again, why is this stat only pointed out about Duke. How has UConn fared since winning it all in 2004 - have they even made the tourney every year? Where's Kentucky? Where's Florida since winning back-to-back? Where has Syracuse been in the tournament since 2003? What about Arizona since 2001? ... get my drift?

I definitely get your drift: teams have their ups and downs. Duke is a bigger name than any team you mentioned--even Kentucky. Like it or not, we get a ton of attention, especially when we underperform relative to our preseason expectations. ESPN is not out to get us with that article. As I said, them's the facts. This is a silly argument, so this will be my last post in this particular exchange.

NashvilleDevil
03-27-2009, 02:08 AM
Right now I feel the same why I did when I was 6 and Duke lost to Washington. In fact i feel the same after they lost in '85,'86,'87,'88,'89,'90,'93,'94,'95 (ACC tourney loss), '96,'97,'98,'99,'00,'02,'03,'04,'05,'06,'07,'08,'0 9. Man that is a lot of tourney losses, maybe Coach K should have recruited better.

I want to thank Greg, Dave and Marty for being outstanding representatives for Duke. You guys will be missed.

Tonight they just hit a wall. It happens to teams with or without superstars. I think with Coach K now able to focus entirely on Duke and not have to spend summers with Team USA the talent level will increase in the next couple of years. Which would give Duke a nice mix.

My wife and I are expecting our first baby in June. I was hoping Duke would be the reigning champs when she was born. I guess I will settle on celebrating a Duke national title with her next year.

gumbomoop
03-27-2009, 02:10 AM
Wanted to add to earlier post, re future: imo, the single most important physical attribute in bball is ballhandling, and most important mental attribute [in many sports] is relentlessness. It's impressive how many teams have several highly skilled ballhandlers, who can get in paint even against solid defenders. Ditto for admirable relentlessness in certain players, e.g., Fields in clutch tonight, Laettner for the ages.

So, can Nolan and EW and G become both much improved handlers and gritty, relentless, JWill-like-get-to-basket guys? Probably can't be relentless unless one has absolute, and deserved, confidence in one's handle.

kinghoops
03-27-2009, 02:11 AM
I definitely get your drift: teams have their ups and downs. Duke is a bigger name than any team you mentioned--even Kentucky. Like it or not, we get a ton of attention, especially when we underperform relative to our preseason expectations. ESPN is not out to get us with that article. As I said, them's the facts. This is a silly argument, so this will be my last post in this particular exchange.

preseason expectations??? show me one analyst that predicted duke would be a final four team? if i recall, we were picked second in the conference.. exactly where we finished, and also if i recall correctly, we were anywhere from 9-13 preseason, about where we finished

Ian
03-27-2009, 02:30 AM
People should go to the NCAA.com website and watch K's postgame press conference. Because he basically addressed most of what is said here in this thread.

He was asked by Bob Ryan if he feels the need to go out and get a low post scorer. And his answer was a nod with immediately adding "and a point".

He also added that "it wasn't as if we haven't been trying."

He also said that Nova was really bad match up for Duke because they can defend at all five positions and switch constantly off screens, and that they did "everything like we did except they have better ball handlers with 2 points on the floor".

The good news is that all the problems that have been discussed here is not oblivious to him. He knows better than anyone what we have and what we need. Now that he doesn't have to deal with the Olympics any more hopefully he'll be able to focus more time and energy getting what this program needs.

kexman
03-27-2009, 02:31 AM
I agree with the earlier statement of what we are missing are true superstars. Singler and Henderson are very good players, but go back through history and look at the embarrassment of riches we have enjoyed. First team all-ACC doesn't cut it. Look at the list below that we have enjoyed...
9 ACC player of the year
7 National player of the year (7 of 23 years...CRAZY)
9 Defensive player of the year
13 first team all americans (years not players since some won multiple years)
6 2nd team all americans
4 3rd team all americans

We have had 2 less than stellar periods...both 3 year periods without a true stud. Singler and Henderson may eventually make this list if they stick around, but the 2009 versions (and the list is year by year) do not qualify. Other than the 2 periods...almost every year had a SUPERSTAR.

I don't understand why the coaching staff doesn't realize this simple equation...recruit a national player of the year and you will be successful:)

Regardless, I enjoyed watching this team progress during the season. It was an interesting work in progress compared with recent years. I liked all the changing parts...just missing the national player of the year award winner.

edit: sorry the spacing didn't work...all those * are suppose to mark player of the years...just notice that stars are GOOD

Tourney All americans ACC National Def
player of the year

1986 Final game Dawkins (1st team) *
1987 16 --- *
1988 Final 4 Ferry (2nd team) * *
1989 Final 4 Ferry (1st team * *
1990 Final Game ----
1991 Champion Laettner (2nd)
1992 Champion Laettner (1st) Hurley (3rd) * *
1993 2nd round Hurley (1st) Hill (2nd) *
1994 Final game Hill (1st) *
1995 --- ---
1996 1st round ---
1997 2nd round ---
1998 elite 8 Langdon (3rd) *
1999 final game Brand (1st) Langdon (2nd) * * *
2000 sweet 16 Carrawell (1st) Battier (2nd) * *
2001 Champion battier (1st) Williams (1st) * ** *
2002 sweet 16 Williams (1st) Dunleavy (2nd) Boozer (3rd)
*
2003 sweet 16 ----
2004 Final 4 Duhon (3rd) Redick (3rd)
2005 sweet 16 Redick (1st) Williams (3rd) * *
2006 sweet 16 Redick (1st) Williams (1st) * * *
2007 1st round ----
2008 2nd round ----
2009 sweet 16 ----

Sources: Consensus all american list for 1st two teams and AP for 3rd
Wooden or Naismith for national player of the year

Greg_Newton
03-27-2009, 02:36 AM
preseason expectations??? show me one analyst that predicted duke would be a final four team? if i recall, we were picked second in the conference.. exactly where we finished, and also if i recall correctly, we were anywhere from 9-13 preseason, about where we finished

Yes, this season was a success in many ways until the tourney (we were ranked between 5-8 preseason by the way, not 9-13). However, this is the fifth straight year that we have underperformed our seed. This is disheartening for fans, and it will continue to be so until we have a tournament performance that is on par with our regular season performance (i.e. our seed) and silences all the critics we all have to listen to day in and day out. This imparts no blame on anyone or anything, it is just stating the facts - it is hard to watch your beloved team underperform in the NCAAs (and fulfill its critics' predictions) for five straight years.

I think a previous poster said it best when they said we're just really disappointed FOR our players, not IN them. This was a team full of great guys with great attitudes, and once again, it just didn't quite work out for them in the end. It's okay to be disappointed as long you remain supportive. That's what being a passionate fan is about. Our guys are certainly disappointed and unhappy with tonight's result right now, but they'll get over it and so will we.

CardinalBlue
03-27-2009, 02:44 AM
I've been pretty bummed out for the past 5 hours, and probably will be at least a little for a month or so...

but this thought is about to put me right to bed.

Potential (admittedly long shot, but still possible) next year rotation:

PG- Wall/Smith/Scheyer
SG- Scheyer/Smith/Williams
G- Henderson/Scheyer/Singler
F- Singler/Kelly/Plumlees/Thomas
C- Zoubek/Thomas/Plumees

devildownunder
03-27-2009, 02:44 AM
I'm not going to sit here and say Duke didn't have a good season. They did win 30 games and an ACCT Championship.

But to say this team overachieved is bullsh-t. Like you just said, this team won 30 games, an ACCT Championship and was a 2 seed. They have at least 7 High School All-Americans on that roster.

I really wish people would stop using that brand name as if it guaranteed success. You can't look at what someone was labeled, you have to look at what a player actually brings to the floor. And by that measure, not how they were rated coming out of high school, this team overachieved. It can be argued that the two most important facets to winning basketball are an offensive presence inside and an major impact player at the lead guard position. Those were this team's biggest offensive weaknesses and it still won 30 games and a conference title, plus made the sweet 16. That's overachieving.

It's almost like going 11-5, winning your division and a playoff game without a top-notch quarterback or running back.

bjornolf
03-27-2009, 07:39 AM
I love these guys. They played with SUCH passion and heart and determination and smarts throughout the season. They adjusted to adversity MULTIPLE times. Which is why this ending is so shocking. As McKay once said about his Bucs "Well, we didn't block today, but we made up for it by not tackling." Duke had MAJOR breakdowns in every facet of the game. You just can't win like that. Somebody commented on the poor 3-pt shooting. Heck, look at the 2-PT shooting! We were only 11-33 from INSIDE the arc! 33%. Ouch. If we'd shot even 45% from inside, it wouldn't have been an embarrassing loss. Still a bad one, but not embarrassing.

I think Scheyer said it best in the locker room after the game. He said that they panicked, that after halftime down only three, they played like they were down big late in the game instead of down 3 with 20 minutes to go. With Nova's better athletes, speeding up the game without discipline played right into their hands. I can see that. And it all just fell apart. Ah well, that's life. It happens. These are just kids after all, when all is said and done. Just sorry that our great seniors' careers ended like THAT. I'm already excited about next year though. With the guys coming in and the talent we have (hopefully) returning, we'll be scary.

I wonder if the late start might have hurt K's performance in the game. He isn't the youngest guy anymore, and not starting 'til after 10 and ending REALLY late might have been hard on him. You get up and spend all day thinking about the game. It's stressful and it wears on you, no matter how good you are and how much you've seen before. Assuming Scheyer was right about the guys panicking, maybe he pulls the trigger on a timeout quicker and calms the guys down with an earlier tip-time and the game ends a little differently. Not saying we necessarily win, but maybe it's a better game. That's pure speculation of course. I know I don't function as well when I have a big, important event in my day that doesn't start 'til REALLY late, and I'm in my 30s. Certainly not an excuse. Just saying.

RelativeWays
03-27-2009, 07:46 AM
We need a pure designated PG more than anything else. Our inside play didn't produce a lot of points but they really improved in defense and rebounding, the only inside guy that totally had his way with the team was Booker. I though Beaker was pretty average against us. If either Kelly or either of the Plumlees can net us 8-10 a game at least then were in good shape down there. But they need substantial burn too. EW still makes freshman mistakes, but his play has improved so much over earlier in the year when pt was fairly erratic. I'm not going to say next year will be our year, too hard to tell. But we should be improved. People lose sight that this team has improved the last two years since the 07 debacle.

lmb
03-27-2009, 07:52 AM
My boss is a Villanova grad:(

I overheard him telling another co-worker that he didn't care if they lost the next game as long as they beat Duke. He said he hated Duke, but he wouldn't say that in front of me. Doesn't he know I'm a mom and have super-sonic hearing? Anyway, that's kind of sad that his benchmark of success is beating one team. I guess that says a lot about what people think of Duke and how much they've achieved over the years.

This game definitely hurt but I think I preferred this blow out to a close loss. In a tight game you end up agonizing over one or two plays and how that would have made a difference. Last night, Villanova was simply better. That said I am agonizing a bit over Singler's miss on the front end of a one-and-one. If he had hit both, it would have been a nine point game. Would it have been a difference-maker? I don't know. But it sure would have been nice to find out.

Great season. ACC Champs! I'm going to miss this team. They were a pleasure to watch.

bjornolf
03-27-2009, 07:53 AM
Can someone please provide a link to the post game press conference? Somebody mentioned that they were at the NCAA website, but I've been wandering around that AWFUL site for fifteen minutes, and I can't find it for the life of me. Thanks.

Troublemaker
03-27-2009, 08:18 AM
Can someone please provide a link to the post game press conference? Somebody mentioned that they were at the NCAA website, but I've been wandering around that AWFUL site for fifteen minutes, and I can't find it for the life of me. Thanks.

http://all-access.cbssports.com/player.html?code=ncaa&media=111158

Duke's portion begins at 18 minute mark.

cspan37421
03-27-2009, 08:30 AM
Really good season by our guys, with a couple eye-popping losses. Best and thanks to Dave, Greg, Marty.

I found it curious that Jon has one bad game at point guard and everyone seems to have forgotten how we went 10-1 after he moved there - and his own numbers improved as well. Sure, we could use a Hurley or JWill there - who couldn't? But Jon's been really good except for last night.

It seems to me that Gerald has been auditioning for the NBA much of the second half of this season, increasingly taking long jumpers, but not having great success at it. I presume he's taking these shots with K's permission/blessing, but I've been skeptical all along that it's been good for the team. It appears from the stats page at goduke.com he was our 4th best 3 point shooter, and we weren't exactly deadly from the 3 (35% as a team, our top 2 shooters being at 39%). Also, several times GH went in for highlight-reel tomahawk dunks, only to miss them being fouled, when a layup would have probably had a far better chance for a 3 point play. Again, it seemed like auditioning, but perhaps not making the best play for the team. Say what you like about demoralizing the other team with a monster dunk, but I'll take the higher expected points every time.

I would have liked to have seen our staff develop Dave, Lance, and Brian on the offensive end, find ways to make them a credible threat to shoot more. We need that inside option for nights when our outside shot just doesn't fall. All of them shot over 50% for the year (Lance over 60%). A balanced attack might have taken some pressure off our outside guys too. Of course with better offensive rebounding maybe they'd have gotten more shots off....

Defense finds its level; offense is volatile because shooting can be streaky - especially outside shooting. Jump-shooting teams eventually have a bad game - they need a backup plan to win those tough times. That backup plan is a credible offensive threat on the inside. Remember Alaa Abdelnaby? That guy had a really good inside game in college - he really led us to the Final in 1990 with great rebounding and short range shooting (incl. bank shots, which Tim Duncan later made his bread and butter). We could stand to groom our bigger guys for a style of game like that.

I can only assume that K would have liked to have a better inside game as well, but our personnel was just not capable of carrying it off.

WhiteboardGuy
03-27-2009, 08:41 AM
there is a difference between being disappointed and being embarrassed. im disappointed, but im enough of an observer to know, that we were beaten tonite, by a better team from a better conference. plain and simple.

Even if you say that Villanova is a better team, it still looks really, really bad when the ACC Champions lose to the fifth best team in the Big East by 23 points.

vango
03-27-2009, 08:42 AM
Do not post that often - got tired of being bashed for legitimate opinion. But, now that the season is over....

* a great season. ACC champs. We were 1 of 16 teams left. That's pretty good. Only 1 team is happy at seasons end.

* thanks to Greg, Marty, and Dave. It was tough to watch Greg's class not fullfill expectations for me though.

* congrats to Jay Wright and 'Nova. I was very impressed and thought Wright showed a lot of class before/after the game

* we have a lot to look forward to with next year

* I keep seeing our teams as appearing like European teams - diverse - big men can step outside. I think we were hurt in this game, and at times during the season, by not having a true low-post scoring threat as well as a true penetrating point we could keep on the court (Greg had his +/- and Jon did a great job / Nolan seems better off the ball to me). Looking forward to Plumlee2 and Kelly's arrival but the PG position still concerns me....

* I think our future looks bright with who we have, our staff, and Coach not having to concern himself with TeamUSA as well.

MB in MD
03-27-2009, 08:49 AM
1) Nobody got hurt

2) Elliott made free throws

3) Maybe G realizes that he is not as NBA ready as some have said.

But actually the best thing about last night is that it made me realize just how much that bunch of guys achieved. They took their talent as far and maybe further than one could have expected. I don't agree with those who say we just played badly and are a better team than Nova. If we played a 7 game series it would be an upset if it went 6 games. But playing together as a team they did great things, and I hope every one of them remembers that after the pain of the loss subsides.

drksuh
03-27-2009, 08:51 AM
As disappointing as last night was, when we are honest with ourselves, we must admit that we overachieved this year. We had no true center or even power forward playing any significant minutes. We had no true point guard playing significant minutes. Basically we had two 2's and three 3's. For you non-basketball strategists, that is two shooting guards and three small forwards. You simply cannot achieve high level success with such a lineup.

In addition, we simply do not develop our bench. Other teams develop players with lesser talent than David McClure, Brian Zoubek, Greg Paulus, and Marty Pocius. This is what makes us over-rely on the cast we have, and it is also what makes us rely on the three point shot too much. Am I implying that Coach K is doing something wrong? No, I simply offer these thoughts for your consideration.

NYDukie
03-27-2009, 08:51 AM
Mixed emotions here. First, I'm not going to sugarcoat it but I was extremely disappointed last night. Watching the game, I felt like Nova just took it to the guys. The only Dukie I felt that fought back was Singler and you could just tell he was p*ssed. This was one of the few times, I felt the team just kind of rolled over, similar to the Clemson game. This Duke team is a tough team but not a physical team and you could just see it when Nova bumped them off the ball, backed them down on the block and just took rebounds away from them. It just left them with that deer in head lights look.

That said, I did have hope that as bad as they played in the first half, being down only 3, they would pull it together in the second half but it never happend. Like Singler said, "it just snowballed".

Bottom line, Nova was the better team. The guys had a very good season and they are what they are. A very good team, not an elite team. I enjoyed the season and I'm not upset with the loss in the Sweet 16 because I felt they would go no further than the Elite 8 at best. I'm just disappointed with how they lost.

What will return them to an elite team? Good question! I know there were some recruiting heartaches (Livingston, PP, Monroe and Boyton), guys not panning out (McBob and Paulus). Hopefully, the next generation will turn out to be exceptional players to combine w/ Singler, Scheyer and Hendo and get us back to the Final 4. And one last thing that has perplexed me and was evident in the game last night. I say this tongue in cheek knowing they do this but can they just hit the weight room, please. I look at them compared to many other teams, especially the Big East teams, and it looks like big brother verse little brother. Ok, that was my one big vent!

CDu
03-27-2009, 08:58 AM
I think one thing Villanova really took advantage of was their handling of screens. They completely disregarded McClure, Thomas, and Zoubek whenever those guys set a screen, showing zero respect for those guys' offensive games. This allowed them to really overplay our perimeter guys, and we just weren't up to the challenge. That's something we're going to need to address next year. If we're going to play a spread-em style offense (and it would seem that that's what we're most suited to do), we can't afford to have 2-3 nonfactors on the floor offensively. Last night, due to foul trouble, we had to do that. There were many instances in which we had three guys who Villanova wasn't concerned with (and I'm including Williams, for whom Villanova gave LOTS of room on the perimeter), and it showed.

This offseason is going to be huge for our 2009-2010 season (shocking, right?). We could really benefit from the development of some guys.

It would help to get serious development from at least one of Plumlee, Zoubek, and Thomas, so that we can have a different look offensively when the perimeter game is struggling. From what I've read on this board from people who follow this stuff more closely, Kelly and Mason Plumlee are more of the same perimeter-oriented big guys.

I think this is a really important offseason for Williams and Smith, too. Williams needs to improve his shot. He's got the ability and confidence to get to the rim. But he needs to give defenses some reason to cover him out there so that he can more easily get into the lane. Smith just needs to work on making fewer mistakes defensively with the hand check and get a little stronger and more confident offensively. It wouldn't hurt for him to develop his ability to pass off the dribble either, as he has the quickness to create for himself and others.

Between the Plumlees, Thomas, Kelly, and Zoubek, there is hope that the inside game can materialize next year. Between Smith and Williams, there's hope that we can add some more slashing playmakers to the mix next year. Maybe we can land a quick PG to augment the rotation, maybe not. Hopefully Singler et al can convince Henderson to come back too.

But it was a good season, despite the horrific end. 30 wins and an ACC championship is nice. We met the reasonable preseason expectations, and got to hang another banner. Hopefully we can return the vast majority of the team and build upon an improving team. A lot of that may depend on Henderson returning, but we will hopefully see substantial growth from our young guys.

whereinthehellami
03-27-2009, 08:58 AM
Good gameplan by Nova. They put alot of effort into shutting down Henderson, knowing that he had become our leader and that this was an emotional game for him. They got to him. I saw some bad body language from Henderson during the second half. Some of it was to his teammates and some to the officials.

Not much to say about the Duke gameplan or adjustments. I'm not sure Coach K had many options considering Duke's personnel and the match-ups. I would have liked to see Duke really try to get Cunningham into foul trouble early. But with the way the game was called and the way Nova plays, I don't know if that would have been possible. But I still think that would have been the way to go. Be the aggressor like Nova was to Duke and Henderson. Kinda of tired of the live by the three die by the three games.

I think Nova had better athletes and toughness across the board. I think they would win this game at least 7 out of 10 times. Congrats to Nova for taking Duke to the woodshed.

I did think that Duke fought hard, they just weren't strong enough. Can they get stong enough? I'm not sure if they can.

miramar
03-27-2009, 09:04 AM
That was a really rough way to go out. I was actually relieved when CBS cut away to the Mizzou game so that I wouldn't have to witness the carnage for a few minutes.

While I guess that this was Duke basketball's 27% shooting week, this team achieved a lot, including 30 wins and an ACC championship. I always thought that this team was a year away from greatness, and that they were basically a sweet sixteen candidate with a chance for the elite eight. It was pretty amazing that Coach K was able to cobble a team that won 10 out of 11 without a real point guard and an interior presence.

Next year's team has the chance for much more, depending on what Gerald decides to do. I would hate to see him finish out his Duke career this way. It was so disappointing to see the same with Randolph, Dockery, Melchioni, and even Redick. You know that most players lose their last game, but you want them to go out with a really strong game, and it's unfortunate that it hasn't happened in the last few years. Nevertheless, that doesn't take away from what they have contributed to the program.

Kfanarmy
03-27-2009, 09:08 AM
Now that he doesn't have to deal with the Olympics any more hopefully he'll be able to focus more time and energy getting what this program needs.

Totally concur with this, but am 100% glad that K took a team to the Olympics that didn't act like a bunch of thugs on the international scene...whether or not they won, not acting like previous NBA-filled teams had in the past was worth the distraction to Duke BBall...though I still would have been happy to see them win last night.

AIRFORCEDUKIE
03-27-2009, 09:08 AM
It will be interesting to see next year how we use Kyle, we could possibly move him to the three position with either Kelly/Plumlee/Zoubek at the 5 and lance at the 4. Then we could slide Hopefully G to the 2 position and Scheyer at point again. But of course thats all speculation and it doesn't really matter. And Coach K knows a hell of a lot more than I do so I'll leave that up to him.

But a guy can dream

Airforcedukie

davekay1971
03-27-2009, 09:09 AM
Last night I was shocked by watching what happened. Today, I'm much calmer. I'll be avoiding Charlotte sports talk radio until Carolina loses (and, if that means next year, that means next year). This is a mental health issue.

Today, I feel better. A few thoughts.

To those people who have expressed the idea that our guys rolled over: please. I never saw any lack of effort last night. They looked, from the opening minutes, thrown off balance, shocked, definitely deer-in-the-headlights. But they didn't quit, and they didn't roll over.

Singler was a man last night.

No need to overreact...it was a just a bad, bad night. We're a better team than we were last night, just not a better team than the one we faced.

If Henderson comes back, we are going to have a very good year next year. EWill and Nolan will develop and improve. Scheyer and Singler are going to be back. Don't look now, but we found a role late in the season for Zoubs. And then we've got the Plumlees and Kelly, all three of whom will be able to contribute next year. That's a loaded roster full of very good players. Someone above mentioned the lack of a superstar, but Henderson and Singler could both be superstars next year.

Lastly, it was a successful season. I'd posted before the 'Nova game that I was satisfied. Well, for awhile last night I wasn't - watching us have such a bad game to end the season really put a bad taste in my mouth. But this morning I'm back to feeling that it has been a really good season - 30 wins, ACC championship, lots of great moments (G's dunk over the Twerps being about the top of the list)...

cspan37421
03-27-2009, 09:13 AM
Someone made a very good point earlier that deserves reinforcement. I cannot but help think K's commitment to USA Basketball had a cost to the Duke team. K has a strong sense of duty to country and I'm proud of what he and the Olympic Team accomplished. But keep in mind what happened in c. 1995 when he could not coach - a 9-3 team with K ends up finishing 4-15 without him. The last 3 years haven't seen his absence, but the time focused on the Olympic Team had to have taken time away from Duke. It was a factor - maybe not the biggest factor, but who knows - we've seen how lost we are without him. To have less than 100% of his time has to have had an effect these last 3 years.

CDu
03-27-2009, 09:17 AM
I'm not sure Coach K had many options considering Duke's personnel and the match-ups.

This is a key point. With Henderson and Smith both in foul trouble, Duke had to frequently have 3-4 guys on the floor whom Villanova had no respect for offensively (Zoubek, Thomas, McClure, Williams). That allowed Villanova to really pin their ears back defensively on Scheyer and Singler, and they completely took Scheyer out of the game.

I was surprised that Coach K went with Zoubek before McClure. For a few minutes, it seemed to work. Zoubek was really effective early on both ends. But (as with the rest of the team), he was a non-factor in the second half.

This was the first time in a long time that a team really was able to expose our lack of offensive depth. They REALLY focused on our big three, and unfortunately the supporting cast wasn't up to the challenge. Hopefully, next year we'll be able to have 4 or more weapons on the floor at all times.

RepoMan
03-27-2009, 09:21 AM
At least 1990 was in the final four against a super power and not in the sweet 16 against a team that wasn't even the best in its own conference.

You might be underselling Villanova a bit. I guess we'll see more on Saturday. Personally, I bet they beat Pitt.

CDu
03-27-2009, 09:22 AM
Someone made a very good point earlier that deserves reinforcement. I cannot but help think K's commitment to USA Basketball had a cost to the Duke team. K has a strong sense of duty to country and I'm proud of what he and the Olympic Team accomplished. But keep in mind what happened in c. 1995 when he could not coach - a 9-3 team with K ends up finishing 4-15 without him. The last 3 years haven't seen his absence, but the time focused on the Olympic Team had to have taken time away from Duke. It was a factor - maybe not the biggest factor, but who knows - we've seen how lost we are without him. To have less than 100% of his time has to have had an effect these last 3 years.

Agreed. I'm sure the Olympics experience was a very fulfilling experience for Coach K. But you're not going to be able to convince me that Coach K was not limited by wearing two hats the last three years. Not saying that he hasn't been great in that time - just that there's simply no way you can do two jobs as well as you can do one in the same time constraint.

Hopefully there are benefits from the experience that we get to observe moving forward, though. Maybe the Olympics helped revitalize Coach K and motivate him to get Duke back to the top. Maybe it gave him some new perspectives on personnel moves and strategy. Maybe it will even help with recruiting in the near future.

RepoMan
03-27-2009, 09:26 AM
I feel like this one is more like the Cal loss. A mediocre showing against a team Duke should have beaten.

Wow. Really. Should have beaten? Clearly, the Big East has the best teams this year, and Villanova was one of the best of those best. After watching this game, its hard to drawn any conclusion other than that Villanova is real good and likely would beat us 7 out of 10. If you listened to K's presser, he basically said Villanova was like Duke, but with two point guards and better ability to handle the ball. This wasn't a game where we simply lost because we played poorly. They beat us--handily.

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 09:29 AM
Wow. Really. Should have beaten? Clearly, the Big East has the best teams this year, and Villanova was one of the best of those best. After watching this game, its hard to drawn any conclusion other than that Villanova is real good and likely would beat us 7 out of 10. If you listened to K's presser, he basically said Villanova was like Duke, but with two point guards and better ability to handle the ball. This wasn't a game where we simply lost because we played poorly. They beat us--handily.

Kind of like Cal - when they had Jason Kidd.

I don't think Nova beats Pitt. They don't shoot well enough, and Pitt has the athleticism to match Nova, and more size.

feldspar
03-27-2009, 09:38 AM
unless you are under the age of 12, you need a longer memory. do a little wikipedia search and don't forget how fortunate we have been.

duke basketball has plenty of wonderful memories for me. i still remember K's first final four - i was 7 years old. i remember 11 ACC championships, 3 national titles, and 10 final fours.

let's not allow this disappointing loss to stain the good stuff we have been lucky enough to witness.

Feels like forever. FEELS. I didn't say HAS been forever. I said FEELS. Please don't read more into what people say than what they say.

Nobody said this loss stains all of the previous 20+ season I've been able to witness.

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 09:46 AM
You know, looking at the numbers and comparing them to what I saw in the game, I am beginning to think more and more than it was more Duke beating Duke than Nova beating Duke.

Here's why:

- missing wide open looks early and often that would have set the tone sooner

- not getting into offensive sets soon enough into the shot clock once Nova started playing better D in the 1st half, thus resulting in bad forced shots (credit Nova's D, but I've seen Duke play against better defenses this year)

- panicking in the 2nd half despite only being down 3 after playing god-awful

- missing FTs, particularly front ends of one and ones

- defensive lapses leading to easy layups for Nova

- errant, unforced errors on passes

- stupid fouls, turnovers or gambles on D after a good play on offense that could have sparked a run

The facts are, Nova only shot 42%. They shot 22% from 3, and took only 9 fewer shots than Duke, despite being in the lead most of the game. In fact, Nova was taking VERY bad shots when they were up big, that, if Duke had shown any semblance of continuity on offense, could have been a game changer. I don't call that being "well-coached."

They only forced 11 Duke turnovers; several of those turnovers were from terrible passes to no one - from forcing the issue and pressing because of the panic mode. Duke forced 12 turnovers.

The fact of the matter is, this game was very, very winnable had Duke knocked down their open looks, not crumbled under pressure and not started pressing so early in the 2nd half. Nova was NOT lights out. The only place Nova truly dominated was on the glass, but it's easy to rack up a lot of rebounds when your opponent shoots 26.7%.

And yes, I know, shoulda coulda woulda... but I'm not convinced when people go on and on about how great Nova is and how awesome the Big East was this season. Just not buying into it. No one team has been dominant.

mr. synellinden
03-27-2009, 09:50 AM
We looked like a team that didn't like each other, didn't want to fight for each other, was willing to give up on our teammates and, actually, looked like a team that hadn't played together for 37 games. Examples, Henderson calling for the ball on a post-up, not getting it and jumping up and down in frustration (ironic since he misses open guys in the post or cutting constantly when he is driving around the perimeter). Singler getting frustrated to the point of taking a 25 ft. 3 when we were down 11 and still in it. Williams yelling at Zoubek when Zoubek came over to help as Williams was getting posted up, resulting in a Williams foul. Paulus throwing a cross-court pass to the front row of fans. Too many easy Nova baskets on drives or cuts to the basket, which indicates a lack of defensive communication. Seemingly no fight from Henderson or Scheyer. These guys are Juniors, roommates, starters and supposed to be leaders. How do two All-ACC caliber players combine for 4-32? They both missed several wide open outside shots.

The other thing is -- in both halves Nova had 6 fouls before the 10 minute mark, and we should have been relentless in going to the basket and shooting 50 FTs if necessary, but we didn't. To me that is a coaching issue.

NYDukie
03-27-2009, 09:54 AM
To those people who have expressed the idea that our guys rolled over: please. I never saw any lack of effort last night. They looked, from the opening minutes, thrown off balance, shocked, definitely deer-in-the-headlights. But they didn't quit, and they didn't roll over.

Singler was a man last night.



Maybe I am being a bit critical of them but the one thing I am always use to with Duke teams, is them fighting for loose balls, diving around for anything and everything and Coack K screaming and fighting to urge his team on (ala the Wake game at Durham). There was one possesion when the ball was on the floor and I just saw Hendo and someone else from Duke kind of just grabbing at the ball rather than diving into the fray and fighting as Nova did. I just didn't see it as I would normally expect to last night.

Maybe I should correct myself in saying that during the first half they hung in there but once the snowball affect grew 5 minutes or so into the 2nd half, I thought then that they kind of gave up with Singler being the exception. You even saw it in Coach K's face when the camera panned to him in the 2nd half. Again, for some reason I just didn't see the usual fight in them last night as they usally do. Grant it, there were times they fought but I just felt like they accepted the foreboding outcome once they got a bit further into the 2nd half. Maybe its the expectations we expect of them, that no matter what, they outfight you but it wasn't up to the normal level that I've seen from them. The whole game just brought me back to the Clemson game and its just tough to stomach for them as a diehard fan on this national stage.

I know some will think its sacriligious to question their effort, desire or whatever you may term it, but I do realize they are kids and just like when we were 18, 19 and 20 years old, we sometimes turn "it" off when things aren't going our way. I know what I am saying seems contradictory to what I initially said, but I have no real problem with how they played and its ok to turn "it" off. I was just a bit taken aback by it. It's just another learning experience in life for them. I think they are a great group that all of us love and that they will grow from this,

On another note, I do agree 100% that Singler was the man last night. He has a little Laettner nastiness in him.

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 09:55 AM
We looked like a team that didn't like each other, didn't want to fight for each other, was willing to give up on our teammates and, actually, looked like a team that hadn't played together for 37 games. Examples, Henderson calling for the ball on a post-up, not getting it and jumping up and down in frustration (ironic since he misses open guys in the post or cutting constantly when he is driving around the perimeter). Singler getting frustrated to the point of taking a 25 ft. 3 when we were down 11 and still in it. Williams yelling at Zoubek when Zoubek came over to help as Williams was getting posted up, resulting in a Williams foul. Paulus throwing a cross-court pass to the front row of fans. Too many easy Nova baskets on drives or cuts to the basket, which indicates a lack of defensive communication. Seemingly no fight from Henderson or Scheyer. These guys are Juniors, roommates, starters and supposed to be leaders. How do two All-ACC caliber players combine for 4-32? They both missed several wide open outside shots.

The other thing is -- in both halves Nova had 6 fouls before the 10 minute mark, and we should have been relentless in going to the basket and shooting 50 FTs if necessary, but we didn't. To me that is a coaching issue.

I think it was an aberration. They just picked the wrong game to stink it up. The problem is, lately they pick the wrong game every year at the wrong time of the year.

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 09:57 AM
On another note, I do agree 100% that Singler was the man last night. He has a little Laettner nastiness in him.

Did you see the play where he had a Nova guy on his back, grabbing his jersey on a rebound and got the foul call, then had some words to say to the Nova guy? Nova guy started coming after him and had to be held back by his teammate. :D

CDu
03-27-2009, 09:59 AM
You know, looking at the numbers and comparing them to what I saw in the game, I am beginning to think more and more than it was more Duke beating Duke than Nova beating Duke.

I wouldn't characterize it quite like that. I completely agree that Villanova didn't play a great game offensively. They were mediocre offensively for sure. But they most certainly beat us on the other end of the floor. Their defensive pressure played a huge part in taking us out of what we wanted to do.

Did we shoot poorly on top of that? Sure. But part of that was that we were working so hard to get shots in the first half that when we did take one, it was rushed. There were a lot of open misses in the second half that just rattled out, but I counted only 3-4 open, un-rushed misses in the first half.

When you lose by 20+, it's a combination of things. Villanova played great defense, and we helped them by not playing well on offense.

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 10:02 AM
I wouldn't characterize it quite like that. I completely agree that Villanova didn't play a great game offensively. They were mediocre offensively for sure. But they most certainly beat us on the other end of the floor. Their defensive pressure played a huge part in taking us out of what we wanted to do.

Did we shoot poorly on top of that? Sure. But part of that was that we were working so hard to get shots in the first half that when we did take one, it was rushed. There were a lot of open misses in the second half that just rattled out, but I counted only 3-4 open, un-rushed misses in the first half.

When you lose by 20+, it's a combination of things. Villanova played great defense, and we helped them by not playing well on offense.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/boxscore?gid=200902040120

That is what I call a team beating you.

The Nova game, yes, they played some pretty good D. Great D? Not really, IMO. It's easy to play D when you only have 2-3 scoring options at any given moment to worry about and one of them is having the worst game of his career, and the others aren't doing much better. It's also easy to play D when everyone is standing around on offense until there's about 10 seconds left on the shot clock and everyone in the gym knows that Scheyer, Singler or Gerald is going to get the ball to try to create/force a shot.

Again, I've seen better defenses this season in wins and losses. Wake's D was better in both games. Clemson's D was MUCH better. Heck, even Carolina's defense was better. Difference is, in all but the Clemson game, Duke didn't shoot like garbage, so the games were a little more palatable in terms of outcome.

cspan37421
03-27-2009, 10:02 AM
Trying to figure out what we might have done differently, looking at our stats (not as an end-all and be-all, but a valuable tool):

We have a given player who:

Was #1 in player effectiveness (by the Dwayne Casey/Barry Jacobs formula)
Was #1 in +/- per 40 minutes (by a longshot)
Was in our #1 +/- lineup (best lineup +/- by a longshot)

But: Was 9th in minutes played (absolute and per-game).

His name is Brian Zoubek, a 7 foot center on a team that needs an inside presence.

So I'm curious, what qualities of Zoubs are the stats not capturing which justify his lack of playing time? Does he cut class or mail it in during practice?

NYDukie
03-27-2009, 10:06 AM
Did you see the play where he had a Nova guy on his back, grabbing his jersey on a rebound and got the foul call, then had some words to say to the Nova guy? Nova guy started coming after him and had to be held back by his teammate. :D

I know it was during the 2nd half and probably wasn't the best time for Singler to talk trash being down 12 points or so, even if the Nova guy (I think it was Fisher) was grabbing and clawing him but I like when I see this. Singler brings that I don't take crap from anyone attitude, not saying the others don't, but he expresses it to the other team. I know people say Duke has the privelaged, choir boy image but he brings some "city" ball attitude even if he isn't from the city. They need another player or two like that to complement the other players.

CDu
03-27-2009, 10:08 AM
Trying to figure out what we might have done differently, looking at our stats (not as an end-all and be-all, but a valuable tool):

We have a given player who:

Was #1 in player effectiveness (by the Dwayne Casey/Barry Jacobs formula)
Was #1 in +/- per 40 minutes (by a longshot)
Was in our #1 +/- lineup (best lineup +/- by a longshot)

But: Was 9th in minutes played (absolute and per-game).

His name is Brian Zoubek, a 7 foot center on a team that needs an inside presence.

So I'm curious, what qualities of Zoubs are the stats not capturing which justify his lack of playing time? Does he cut class or mail it in during practice?

Selection bias. Zoubek is being played in limited stretches, largely in situations where he's most likely to succeed. In the right situation, he's an impact presence. But there just aren't many situations where the setting has been right for him, and Coach K has been careful not to overexpose him to bad matchups.

blueprofessor
03-27-2009, 10:08 AM
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=dw-dukebounced032709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Author discusses : 3 years coaching Team USA, talent evaluation, recruiting, position gaps...the whole 9 yards!

Best--Blueprof :(

UConnJack
03-27-2009, 10:10 AM
Congrats on an overall good season. Duke may not have had all the pieces this year, but they were only one or two players away. I suspect that will change soon enough. I agree about Singler, and I don't think he gets enough respect, I would almost choose him over Hansbrough much of the time.

should_be_working
03-27-2009, 10:13 AM
So I'm not sure people will even be reading this post, since there are already 11 pages about this game, but lets just call it therapy.

first off, great season. I don't think we underachieved or overachieved. I think if we play another team that doesn't matchup with us so well, we could have easily gotten into the elite 8, and then people would be praising this team for its accomplishments. The ncaa tourny IMO, is all about matchups and luck - two things we didn't have going our way last night. The sweet 16 is a nice accomplishment - remember the past two seasons, hanging around for 2 weeks in the tourny isn't so bad.

About the game:
We simply got out played, we couldn't penetrate, they could, we couldn't shoot, the could (in the second half), we couldn't get easy points in transition - they could.

we got out-rebounded and out-hustled, two things that didn't happen very often this season.

Too many fouls, too bad a shooting performance. No runs/spurts. This team always seemed to have a spurt in them, and i kept waiting for it last night, but we just couldn't put it together on a consistent basis. I think at one point midway through the second half we were down by 11 with Kyle at the line shooting a 1 and 1, and i thought if we could but it down to single digits a run would ensue, but he missed the first half, and i don't think we ever got any closer.

We put Z in for quite a bit of time, but we forgot to pass it to him. We actually had a height advantage and we didn't exploit that - this was a trend we saw for most of the second part of the season

I really would have liked to have seen a 2-3 zone. They weren't shooting particular well from 3 (for the most part) but they were able to get past us on the dribble, packing it in could have at least given us a better chance to stop all their layups. Although this theory could also have hurt our already bad rebounding.

It would be nice if sometime in the future we could get/develop a shot blocker, instead of a flopper. So often we don't contest a shot, rather try to take a charge. We have been successful doing this, but tonight our helpside D just didn't get over fast enough, which created a lot of and one situations after a blocking foul was called.

The big 3 struggled (Jon, G, Kyle) plain and simple. I think in games like these if they don't account for 60 pts or so, then we have no chance. The supporting crew didn't provide much scoring either, would have been nice to have some more points from Thomas and Smith.

Finally we looked mentally tired out there, our shoots weren't falling and they knew it and played like a team that was already beaten (at least in the 2nd half). I think our weak mental state crossed over into our physical state (if this makes sense). We missed a lot of shots off the front of the rim, and we all know what that implies.

This team feeds off of their offense instead of defense and since nothing was working on the offensive end, there just wasn't emotion or that spark that ignites a run or provides that swagger. Nothing was clicking tonight.


As for next season: thoughts/suggestions
we will be better, due to natural maturation, but at the end of the day, this will be essentially the same team (if we are lucky and nobody leaves early), which worries me. Its obvious we need a point guard, maybe its Smith, or Jon or a recruit, but without a really good point guard its going to be tough to be a legitimate contender for a national title.

I'd love to see more zones from our D. We seemed to lack, at some points of the season, the ability to adjust to our opponents. We seemed to stick with our game plan (which usually worked most of the time), but there were moments that a different defense of play calling on offense could have served us better.

We really need our big guys current and recruits to develop. As mentioned before, they need to take pressure off shooters - and this team isn't a tremendous shooting team. Having a consistent scoring threat down low could do wonders.

Individuals off-season "to work on list"
G: continue to work on shot, and making strong moves to basket, creating his own shot, knowing when to shoot vs pass, drive vs shot
Kyle: work on more strength (as he did last offseason) and his outside shot
Jon: I'm not sure you can work on passing/finding the open man - PG skills, but if you could, that would be nice
Nolan: Passing/PG skills, and that outside shot
Z: offensive moves, and shot blocking
MP: just continue to develop - all around game
EWill: Outside shot, free throws
I'm sure all of these and more will be addressed in the off-season.

Its going to be a long wait this offseason.

Thanks Greg, Dave and Marty, you guys played with tremendous heart and will be missed! This was a great season, with a lot of accomplishments, certainly something that no one should hang their heads about.

CDu
03-27-2009, 10:14 AM
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/boxscore?gid=200902040120

That is what I call a team beating you.

The Nova game, yes, they played some pretty good D. Great D? Not really, IMO. It's easy to play D when you only have 2-3 scoring options at any given moment to worry about and one of them is having the worst game of his career, and the others aren't doing much better. It's also easy to play D when everyone is standing around on offense until there's about 10 seconds left on the shot clock and everyone in the gym knows that Scheyer, Singler or Gerald is going to get the ball to try to create/force a shot.

Again, I've seen better defenses this season in wins and losses. Wake's D was better in both games. Clemson's D was MUCH better. Heck, even Carolina's defense was better. Difference is, in all but the Clemson game, Duke didn't shoot like garbage, so the games were a little more palatable in terms of outcome.

As I said, it was a COMBINATION of things. We certainly didn't help ourselves. But I think you're largely undervaluing the performance Villanova gave defensively. Was it as overwhelming as Clemson's press? No. But it was most certainly more impressive than either Wake's or (are you KIDDING me) Carolina's defense.

You're coming across as a sour sport here, denigrating the other team's performance. You seem to be implying that it wasn't Nova's tough defense that forced Henderson and Scheyer into career worst games. Yes - it's easier to defend a team when they only have 2-3 strong options. That didn't prevent us from being one of the most efficient offenses in the country this year.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I think Villanova did a great job defensively in swarming our 3 weapons and completely taking us out of our game. I think it was the second-best defensive performance we've faced this year.

Billy Dat
03-27-2009, 10:15 AM
So I'm curious, what qualities of Zoubs are the stats not capturing which justify his lack of playing time? Does he cut class or mail it in during practice?

I think this is a reasonable question, and the most simple answer is that he doesn't really fit our chosen style of play because of his footspeed, and K hasn't been inclined to design the style of play around him because he often does make some mental errors that appear subtle but have big impact.

On the defensive end, for example, I remember one play last night where the ball was dumped into the post. Elliot doubled down on the baseline side and Zoubek was behind the defender. Instead of holding his spot and challenging the defender to shoot over him, Zoubs cheated up way too high on the double, leaving a gap which the Nova player stepped through and got a lay-up. E-Will gave Z a "What the f?" look after the play and Z could only roll his eyes. That kind of thing happens quite a bit, and its both mental and physical (too slow to close that gap he created). For a 7 footer, he is slow to rotate to block shots as well.

On the offensive side, we run so much screening action that his footspeed gets him in trouble. Consider the difference between Lance/Kyle/Dave and Zoubek - the prior three dart around setting tons of screens and then moving to keep spacing. Z is just too slow for that.

So...I think to make Brian a bigger part of the team, we'd have to change some really fundamental things we do on both sides of the ball and it seems that the coaching staff doesn't think he's got the goods to warrant such an overhaul. I happen to agree, with the one caveat that I do think he's got enough offensive game to post him up or run some high-lows for him once in a while.

tendev
03-27-2009, 10:18 AM
devilsdownunder,

I did not bash Duke or K at all. You mixed me up with someone else. I think we played hard, but pointed out what is apparent to most and that we need to recruit more athletic players to win.

I have heard that some players are more "athletic" than others. What does that mean? Who on Villanova's team is more athletic than Singler? Scheyer? Henderson? Williams? Smith? Pocius? Even Plumlee is athletic. Our problem is not that we don't have athletic players. Our problem is that we don't have enough good players at every position. Villanova has more players on the court and their bench who are better, when you consider every position, than the one's we had on the court at any given time.

In Singler's case, he has the skills of a small forward. But due to our lack of size, he is asked to do more than just be a small forward.

In Scheyer's case, he is asked to be a point guard but he does not dribble strongly with the ball and can't take people off the dribble. Those are point guard skills. He is 6'5" and was never a point guard. So he is out of position too. There is nothing about him that is not athletic. Do you think that Lavance Fields is more athletic than Scheyer or do you think that Fields is just a better point guard.


Henderson. They don't make them any more athletic than he is.

Smith and Williams are also quite athletic but they are not strong with the ball and they are both young.

NYDukie
03-27-2009, 10:18 AM
Congrats on an overall good season. Duke may not have had all the pieces this year, but they were only one or two players away. I suspect that will change soon enough. I agree about Singler, and I don't think he gets enough respect, I would almost choose him over Hansbrough much of the time.

I know this is diverging a bit from the original thread but with regards to Singler, I know its been stated he is more of a 3. However, given that he is 6-8, 235 which isn't small by college standards, that if he was to develop more of a inside/post game to compliment his perimeter skills that 1) he would provide that sometimes needed inside presence, 2) elevate him into ACC player of the year potential and 3) if Mason Plumlee provides a legit C presence which I've read various reports he may or may not provide (I'm not holding my breathe on a freshman), that Singler would be a matchup nightmare for anyone at the 3 spot.

That he and Hendo, if he stays, continue their maturity process we've seen, they could be among the best 1-2 punches in the country.

MB in MD
03-27-2009, 10:24 AM
The fact of the matter is, this game was very, very winnable had Duke knocked down their open looks, not crumbled under pressure and not started pressing so early in the 2nd half. ...
The only place Nova truly dominated was on the glass



I'm not sure I was watching the same game. Except for the first 5-10 minutes, when we did miss open looks, where Nova dominated was not something that showed up in any statistic other than that 26.7%. On every screen, every bit of motion, every pick and roll, every slashing move inside (except Elliott's one tomohawk), they switched effectively and had someone in our face. Every time we would run a sequence that would have gotten someone an open shot in our normal offense, they'd look up and find that it wasn't, and either do something desperate, or start over, run the shot clock down more, and then do something desperate. And we never figured out how to change that. Clemson's press bothered us more, but no one we played this year had a better overall defensive game plan.

It wasn't a matter of not trying, it was that all we could do was make the same mistakes over and over again. Is that coaching? Maybe. But I don't feel I have the cred to criticize K. I'll bet he was trying too.

Wander
03-27-2009, 10:25 AM
But to say this team overachieved is bull.

Agreed. As a corollary, I'd like to call out the people who think that Villanova has more talent than us. Henderson is certainly the most talented player on either team, and Singler is probably second. Not to mention that everyone on DBR keeps telling me that Scheyer is an elite defender or some such nonsense. And if you want to talk athleticism, Nolan and Elliott are plenty athletic.

I can completely accept that Villanova was a bad match-up for us and that we need a post presence. I'm proud of our guys for winning the ACC tournament and 30 games, and to be completely honest I'm not even that pissed about losing in the Sweet 16. But the team did not overachieve, nor did Villanova have a ton more talent or athleticism.

KyDevilinIL
03-27-2009, 10:25 AM
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=dw-dukebounced032709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Author discusses : 3 years coaching Team USA, talent evaluation, recruiting, position gaps...the whole 9 yards!

You know, I expected this sort of stuff to start coming out, and we'll probably see a lot of it in the next few days and especially at the start of next season.

I try not to get worked up over this stuff. And heck, the guy makes a point or two.

If I have a worry, though, it's that if the perception of Duke as a program on the decline gets legs, then it might start to hinder recruiting. I sense we aren't the "cool" program to this generation of players, many of whom grew up in the thick of Duke hatred.

Now, we obviously have advantages no other school can boast, and we're going to remain supremely competitive for the best players. But if folks start to believe we're really dropping a notch or two, it's gonna make it that much tougher to actually land the kids. Especially at a time when we need to reinforce our recruiting efforts, losing one or two big names here and there can have long term repercussions. I think we're seeing that now with the big man struggles.

This media thing has the potential to become a significant burden for Duke, I'm afraid. It's not going away, and it's going to be an obstacle to overcome for a long time.

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 10:25 AM
As I said, it was a COMBINATION of things. We certainly didn't help ourselves. But I think you're largely undervaluing the performance Villanova gave defensively. Was it as overwhelming as Clemson's press? No. But it was most certainly more impressive than either Wake's or (are you KIDDING me) Carolina's defense.

You're coming across as a sour sport here, denigrating the other team's performance. You seem to be implying that it wasn't Nova's tough defense that forced Henderson and Scheyer into career worst games. Yes - it's easier to defend a team when they only have 2-3 strong options. That didn't prevent us from being one of the most efficient offenses in the country this year.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I think Villanova did a great job defensively in swarming our 3 weapons and completely taking us out of our game. I think it was the second-best defensive performance we've faced this year.

Yes I am serious about the Wak defense:
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/boxscore?gid=200901280628
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/boxscore?gid=200902220173

The second game, Duke was just on fire - Gerald was still forcing shots, but everything was going in. Wake was always there, but they just couldn't stop him.

Just because a team shoots a high % doesn't mean an opponent didn't play good defense, just like a team shooting a low % doesn't mean an opponent played great defense. I think Missouri played great D on Memphis, but still gave up a lot of points. But their great D also led to a lot of points, too.

I wouldn't denigrate Nova's play if they had really shown anything other than points off of blown defensive assignments or waiting for us to try to start a play late in the shot clock on defense. They didn't force turnovers, most of their points came in the paint off of easy layups, and they shot a mediocre %.

I can submit that it was a combination of things, but our disagreement was the amount of influence of those things. Personally, I think it was more of the stupid fouls, poor decisions on offense and blown assignments on defense - all very out of character for this team - and less of the defense from Nova.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
03-27-2009, 10:27 AM
Since we're all Duke fans it's easy to do, but we're burying the lead here: 'Nova was a much, much better team last night. The things we did wrong didn't happen in a vacuum. 'Nova got in our face and played the sort of disruptive, make-you-wilt defense that K built his name on. By the time we found open looks we were too flustered to shoot them. Guys didn't start making passes to the third row because they're bad players or because the moon was in the Seventh House. 'Nova made us uncomfortable and took us out of our game like a good defense is designed to. We're not Ademola Okulaja, we got beat by a very good team that played great basketball.

So hats off to the guys that came with fire and a solid game plan. They were the better team and they deserved to win.

_Gary
03-27-2009, 10:28 AM
I thought almost all our main guys looked out of sync last night for the entire game. Jon was solid the first several minutes. He didn't hesitate to take an open shot and buried a few early. But then for some inexplicable reason he regressed and started hesitating like crazy with the ball. There were several times he could have gotten off a good shot but he seemed out of sorts and ended up passing or dribbling into a worse position than he originally had.

Kyle, with all due respect to those saying he was "the man" last night, had a poor game as well. He wasn't right on either end of the court for a good portion of the game, especially the 1st half. He got beat time and time again on defense (his man and when he helped and shouldn't have). He made some lazy passes that were intercepted as well and led to easy buckets. He just wasn't quite himself.

And then there's Gerald. Just an atrocious shooting night. And again, not the type of defense I've come to expect from him. I don't know, it just seemed like we were never really in the game to me. I saw signs from the first couple of minutes in that we were going to be in trouble.

At the half a lot of folks were saying we had played good "D" and that had kept us in the game. I begged to differ. Nova missed a ton of wide open looks. We were very fortunate not to have been down by at least a dozen points. So I had little faith anything would change after halftime. It just wasn't in the cards last night.

Overall I think the issue we've all harped on for a few years now came back to bite us. We were a great team that could hang with anyone as long as at least 2 of our Big Three were having a good game shooting and being productive from the outside. But once we hit a game where none of our guys could throw it in the ocean we suffered from the two fundamental deficiencies this team has had since we last made a strong FF run: A point guard that can break down the defense and either get to the rim at will or at least create for others with dribble penetration & an athletic big that can give us solid production inside. I think it's really that simple.

Look, as long as Coach K is here he will find a way to take any team we have and make the defense work. It might not always be the lock down D we are accustomed to, but it will be presentable most nights. But the one thing we need, based on the type of motion offense we run, is a point guard that can dribble penetrate. Without that, we lose a lot of effectiveness. We masked that deficiency at the end of the year with Jon playing point some. While he couldn't dribble drive, he was smart with the ball and limited our turnovers. That helped a lot. But it cannot replace what a Hurley, Avery, Williams, or Duhon can bring. We need a premiere point, plain and simple. And secondly we need an athletic big that can get out on the screens and still be able to recover in time to disrupt shots and snag boards. On offense he needs to be able to carve out position underneath and be able to finish inside and battle for boards. We don't have that player either. We all know that story. We've missed on several in the last few years and eventually it catches up to you.

I loved this team. It was fun to watch them play at a high level and win the ACC Tournament. They gave us much pleasure this year. But we still lack the same things we've been lacking for a good 5 years now (ever since 2004). Until those positions are addressed I think we will continue to be good but not great. We'll win our fair share of games thanks to Coach's mastery in getting the best out of what he has. But we will not be at an elite status again until we get the top tier 1 and the athletic, inside 5 we need.

Just my two cents. Oh, but at least for the first time in a while I didn't think us being "tired" was an issue. That seems to have been solved with K's revised plan. So that's an upside going into the future. Now we just need the players.

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 10:29 AM
I'm not sure I was watching the same game. Except for the first 5-10 minutes, when we did miss open looks, where Nova dominated was not something that showed up in any statistic other than that 26.7%. On every screen, every bit of motion, every pick and roll, every slashing move inside (except Elliott's one tomohawk), they switched effectively and had someone in our face. Every time we would run a sequence that would have gotten someone an open shot in our normal offense, they'd look up and find that it wasn't, and either do something desperate, or start over, run the shot clock down more, and then do something desperate. And we never figured out how to change that. Clemson's press bothered us more, but no one we played this year had a better overall defensive game plan.

It wasn't a matter of not trying, it was that all we could do was make the same mistakes over and over again. Is that coaching? Maybe. But I don't feel I have the cred to criticize K. I'll bet he was trying too.

I don't disagree they were switching well. But I think that was from watching tape and knowing how the offense is run. And I bet Taylor King gave some insight on what we like to do on offense, so that probably helped a little.

What helped the most was the standing around on offense, though, as well as only having 2 or 3 guys who can score on the floor. Notice how G or Singler or Scheyer always had two guys on them when they drove? Where did those guys come from? Off of Z, McClure, Lance, Elliot... ugh.

NYDukie
03-27-2009, 10:33 AM
Kyle, with all due respect to those saying he was "the man" last night, had a poor game as well. He wasn't right on either end of the court for a good portion of the game, especially the 1st half. He got beat time and time again on defense (his man and when he helped and shouldn't have). He made some lazy passes that were intercepted as well and led to easy buckets. He just wasn't quite himself.

Taking into account the context of the game and comparing him to the rest of the Duke team's play, he came off as the man. But agreed, he did play poor, not horrible, just not good. Just trying to grasp hold of the few bright spots in the game.

_Gary
03-27-2009, 10:42 AM
You know, I expected this sort of stuff to start coming out, and we'll probably see a lot of it in the next few days and especially at the start of next season.

I try not to get worked up over this stuff. And heck, the guy makes a point or two.

If I have a worry, though, it's that if the perception of Duke as a program on the decline gets legs, then it might start to hinder recruiting. I sense we aren't the "cool" program to this generation of players, many of whom grew up in the thick of Duke hatred.

Now, we obviously have advantages no other school can boast, and we're going to remain supremely competitive for the best players. But if folks start to believe we're really dropping a notch or two, it's gonna make it that much tougher to actually land the kids. Especially at a time when we need to reinforce our recruiting efforts, losing one or two big names here and there can have long term repercussions. I think we're seeing that now with the big man struggles.

This media thing has the potential to become a significant burden for Duke, I'm afraid. It's not going away, and it's going to be an obstacle to overcome for a long time.

The linked article didn't just make a point or two. It made them all, IMHO. Not one thing I could disagree with in that article.

You're right about perceptions and the fact that we need a huge recruiting class (not in numbers per se, but in talent) at the one and the five to offset what seems to be happening right now. Even Coach admitted that we've missed on some key bigs at the last moment. Hey, this game is as much about recruiting as anything else. And right now, we just aren't getting the top players we are targeting at every position. We seem to never have a problem at the 2, 3 or 4. We get plenty of those. But we all know the two key positions in basketball are the 1 and the 5 (especially with the offense we run). We just can't keep missing on bigs (P & M) and misreading our points (G) any more. We just can't afford it if we want to compete year in and year out with the other elite programs. It's that simple.

CDu
03-27-2009, 10:42 AM
Yes I am serious about the Wak defense:

I think you misread me. I said "are you kidding me?" with regard to the UNC defense, which you suggested was better. UNC was not remotely as good defensively against us as Villanova was. As for Wake, I think they played very solid defense in the first game against us, but not the second. You can argue that Wake's defense in the first game was better than Villanova's, as they were up 15 before they tried to give that game away late. I think Villanova's performance was better, but that's at least debatable.


I can submit that it was a combination of things, but our disagreement was the amount of influence of those things. Personally, I think it was more of the stupid fouls, poor decisions on offense and blown assignments on defense - all very out of character for this team - and less of the defense from Nova.

Yes, our disagreement is on the amount of influence of those things. I think you are undervaluing the effort Villanova put in defensively (and the focus they were able to put on stopping Henderson and Scheyer) and how much that affected other things. You obviously disagree.

CDu
03-27-2009, 10:46 AM
I don't disagree they were switching well. But I think that was from watching tape and knowing how the offense is run. And I bet Taylor King gave some insight on what we like to do on offense, so that probably helped a little.

What helped the most was the standing around on offense, though, as well as only having 2 or 3 guys who can score on the floor. Notice how G or Singler or Scheyer always had two guys on them when they drove? Where did those guys come from? Off of Z, McClure, Lance, Elliot... ugh.

But that's GOOD DEFENSE! Villanova knew we weren't going to hurt them with McClure, Zoubek, Thomas, and Williams. So they overplayed Scheyer and Henderson and took them out of the game. That's good defense. And as for the argument that "well, it's not hard to do that when you only have 2-3 options", I say this: if it was so easy to do, why haven't more teams done it?

Yes, a big part of our problem is that we don't have a deep offensive team. But that hasn't been a problem for most of the season. Villanova had a very sound defensive gameplan and they did a very good job of executing it. We did a terrible job of making adjustments, but I feel it's a disservice to not give credit to Villanova for doing something that only one (maybe two) other teams have done all year to us offensively.

cspan37421
03-27-2009, 10:50 AM
I get what you all are saying about Zoubs and slow footwork, missed assignments, etc. But the example above was anecdotal, and if happened a lot, it would show up in the +/-. As I've said, he's #1 on the team per 40 min for that, and part of our #1 +/- lineup. I have a hard time believing it happens a lot yet doesn't show up in the +/-.

Another thing, about footwork and athleticism. How many 7 footers do you know who have quick footwork? Is he really slower than most 7 footers?

That K does not want to change his offense to incorporate a 7 footer, OK, but if you don't have the personnel to get to the rack more than we do, you're then going to live and die by smaller guys taking jump shots. And we got killed last night because of this.

Selection bias would be to say we should have played Steve Johnson more because he's 100% from the field on the year. Zoubs averaged 12 min/game for 35 games, 14 last night, took only 2 shots and made both.

Classof06
03-27-2009, 10:58 AM
I really wish people would stop using that brand name as if it guaranteed success. You can't look at what someone was labeled, you have to look at what a player actually brings to the floor. And by that measure, not how they were rated coming out of high school, this team overachieved. It can be argued that the two most important facets to winning basketball are an offensive presence inside and an major impact player at the lead guard position. Those were this team's biggest offensive weaknesses and it still won 30 games and a conference title, plus made the sweet 16. That's overachieving.

It's almost like going 11-5, winning your division and a playoff game without a top-notch quarterback or running back.

With all due respect, there is no way you're going to get me to believe that as a 2 seed we overachieved. No way.

I don't think Duke had a terrible season, not in the least. Last night is where I had us getting knocked out in my bracket and I'm really not surprised with last night's result at all.

But don't sit here and say we overachieved. That's simply not true and it's a joke of an argument. In fact, it's almost an (albeit unintended) insult to the intelligence of anyone who knows the game and/or has followed this team all season.

I'm sorry, it just really irks me when people say that. You can't say we had a great season, won 30 games and an ACCT Championship like darn good teams do, then say we overachieved by making it to the Sweet 16 as a 2 seed. Why? Cuz we beat Texas? The 4th best team in a mediocre Big 12? Gimme a break.

cspan37421
03-27-2009, 10:59 AM
What helped the most was the standing around on offense, though, as well as only having 2 or 3 guys who can score on the floor. Notice how G or Singler or Scheyer always had two guys on them when they drove? Where did those guys come from? Off of Z, McClure, Lance, Elliot... ugh.

If that's the case, don't we have a better chance of scoring by dumping off our of the double team to Z, Dave, or Lance? That's what great teams do - when their primary weapons get doubled on a drive to the basket, they dump off to secondary players who make the other team pay (assuming they're in position!). If we're not doing that, of course we're not going to win.

CDu
03-27-2009, 10:59 AM
Selection bias would be to say we should have played Steve Johnson more because he's 100% from the field on the year. Zoubs averaged 12 min/game for 35 games, 14 last night, took only 2 shots and made both.

Selection bias absolutely applies to Zoubek. He averaged limited minutes, and those minutes tended to be concentrated in games that he was well-suited to play. Coach K benched Zoubek in many of the games in which he'd have struggled. That's the definition of selection bias.

The Steve Johnson example is much less an example of selection bias. It's more of an example of high variability due to lack of sample size. There is a bit of selection in that his few minutes have been against scrubs.

FerryFor50
03-27-2009, 11:05 AM
If that's the case, don't we have a better chance of scoring by dumping off our of the double team to Z, Dave, or Lance? That's what great teams do - when their primary weapons get doubled on a drive to the basket, they dump off to secondary players who make the other team pay (assuming they're in position!). If we're not doing that, of course we're not going to win.

I don't think this team has a lot of trust for Z, Lance or Dave on offense. Plus, those guys tend to give the ball up when they have it pretty quickly.

jv001
03-27-2009, 11:07 AM
I get what you all are saying about Zoubs and slow footwork, missed assignments, etc. But the example above was anecdotal, and if happened a lot, it would show up in the +/-. As I've said, he's #1 on the team per 40 min for that, and part of our #1 +/- lineup. I have a hard time believing it happens a lot yet doesn't show up in the +/-.

Another thing, about footwork and athleticism. How many 7 footers do you know who have quick footwork? Is he really slower than most 7 footers?

That K does not want to change his offense to incorporate a 7 footer, OK, but if you don't have the personnel to get to the rack more than we do, you're then going to live and die by smaller guys taking jump shots. And we got killed last night because of this.

Selection bias would be to say we should have played Steve Johnson more because he's 100% from the field on the year. Zoubs averaged 12 min/game for 35 games, 14 last night, took only 2 shots and made both.

You make several good points regarding Zoubs. In our offense Brian is nothing more than a screener, low post defender and once in a while high post passer. In our offense which alot of times is just players standing around watching one guy dribble the ball, it's hard to have an offensive flow. And on defense we have pressure the ball man to man. Zoubs cannot flourish in that scheme either if their big man comes out high. We were hurt many times this year with Kyle switching to a guard and our guard ending up guarding a big man down low. This led to foul trouble and easy baskets. I see many things that can be corrected before tip off next year. Some things by players and other things by our coaches. Go Duke!