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CameronBornAndBred
03-24-2009, 08:35 AM
Everyone's biggest beef about Duke's #1 seeding was their lousy venue, but you have to believe the committee knew exactly what they were doing. This is women's basketball, and it doesn't get much attention without some added drama. Most high seeded games don't have any naturally on the court (although Auburn and UNC might question that today), so if it won't be on the court, then create it at least on the sidelines.
Coach P will be coaching against her former team on their home court in front of fans who welcomed her back on day one with a shower of boos. I don't know much about MSU other than they barely survived round 1, but they did it in a way Duke is familiar with. They were down 15 in the second half and fought back for the win, a scenario that Duke has played out a few times this year. Duke has also let big leads slip away, so this really might be a hard fought game.
Chante Black was able to block shots vs. Austin Peay without even jumping, she'll have to give a little effort tonight. One of their leaders is Allyssa DeHaan, who is 6' 9"! Hopefully Abby Waner will be back as well, I believe it's a game time decision. You know Abby wants to be out there and she has said she expects to play.
GO DUKE!!!

miramar
03-24-2009, 09:48 AM
I don't know much about MSU either except for the name of their former coach, but the people who write the game notes sure do.

They are 21-10 and 13-5 in the Big Ten. They seem to be a typical Big Ten team in that they don't score much. In fact, their two leading scorers are Jefferson with 11.4 and DeHaan with 10.5. After that, it's 7.7, 7.0, 6.5... DeHaan is 6-9, so she'll have a four-inch height advantage on Chante Black.

Unfortunately, when you look at the statistical comparisons, you see that Duke has become a Big Ten team as well:

Shooting percentage: Duke 41.5, MSU 42.0
Shooting pct. allowed: Duke 34.7, MSU 34.5
Three point pct.: 32.1 & 27.3

So MSU can play defense, but they are even worse on threes than we are. Free throws: an identical 69.7%. While we turn the ball over too much (19.3), they are again worse (20.3). Duke has also been forcing 23.3 turnovers per game, the highest in school history. (It's rather amazing to think that the typical Duke game features 42.6 turnovers.)

So the teams seem to be similar, but the results are not. Duke's rebounding margin is much better (+15.4 vs. +8.1), and so is Duke's scoring (72.8 PPG vs. 63.4 PPG). Points allowed are similar, with Duke at 57.4 and Michigan State at 55.1.

The saving grace in all this is that of late Duke has been playing more like an ACC team. During the last four games Duke has shot 48.6% and 44% from threes, so an exciting and fast-paced game will favor the Blue Devils. Michigan State will slow it down (Duke has 369 more shots with only one more game than MSU) but Duke's athleticism and skill will carry the day. Even with all the boos.

Kfanarmy
03-24-2009, 03:25 PM
Can someone explain how a 1 seed ends up playing on anyone else's homecourt during a championship tournament? I've never particularly like either team to have that kind of advantage during a tourney, let alone the 9 seed holding home court to a #1. Do they simply set the locations and if the home team makes the tourney the home team gets to play there? Curious.

jjasper0729
03-24-2009, 03:50 PM
I think I saw this in another thread, but the crux of it is that a few years ago, the NCAA went to pre-determined first and second round sites for the women. This was so they could "grow" the game and pre-sell tickets for the early rounds ahead of when the brackets are announced. However, in order to make sure there is enough interest, they do not pick neutral sites generally. Also, the "host" team gets to play there. We are not the only ones to get hosed in the bracket (let's hope in the game). Auburn (2) lost to Rutgers (7) on Rutgers' home floor last night. That was inherently unfair.

roywhite
03-24-2009, 03:56 PM
I think I saw this in another thread, but the crux of it is that a few years ago, the NCAA went to pre-determined first and second round sites for the women. This was so they could "grow" the game and pre-sell tickets for the early rounds ahead of when the brackets are announced. However, in order to make sure there is enough interest, they do not pick neutral sites generally. Also, the "host" team gets to play there. We are not the only ones to get hosed in the bracket (let's hope in the game). Auburn (2) lost to Rutgers (7) on Rutgers' home floor last night. That was inherently unfair.

Yeah, it's hard to justify the higher seeds playing on the opponent's home floor.

Attendance, particularly in the 1st and 2nd rounds, is a big issue/concern.

http://www.newschannel9.com/news/big_976753___article.html/loses_money.html

According to a poster on TDD, the Cal/UVa tournament game was played in Los Angeles and had a turnout of only 686. Not good.

jjasper0729
03-24-2009, 03:59 PM
i was watching the unc/purdue game last night and the arena wasn't very full... in chattanooga even (a supposed hotbed for women's hoops if you listen to the SEC)...

I am of a mind that they should go back to the top four seeds in each region hosting the first 3 games in a "pod".

and for that matter, I don't like the pod system for the men either... we should have been at the same site as villanova... but that's an argument for a different thread

juise
03-24-2009, 07:55 PM
I'm at work, but GameCast shows that this one is pretty ugly. Duke is shooting 28% and trailing 22-18 with 2:35 to play in the first half. Yuck.

Let's turn it around, team!

godukecom
03-24-2009, 07:56 PM
scared... :(

CameronBornAndBred
03-24-2009, 08:02 PM
scared... :(
Lotta game left, only half, I'm not worried. Still, bleah!:mad:
We are looking like our January selves, not the team that has been playing the last month.

jjasper0729
03-24-2009, 08:16 PM
they are settling for jump shots (not a staple of this team) and being VERY careless with the ball... MSU has packed their zone in and is daring the women to go to the basket

juise
03-24-2009, 08:44 PM
Tied at 42 with 9:30 to go. We will need to improve our FT shooting to pull this one out.

godukerocks
03-24-2009, 08:53 PM
I'd love to watch, but ESPN is insisting on letting all of us in Florida slog through uconn's 30+ point blowout until the very end, instead of switching games.

DukeUsul
03-24-2009, 09:03 PM
This homecourt advantage thing for a #9 seed is ridiculous.

dukebluelemur
03-24-2009, 09:05 PM
On top of the just stupid home court advantage for the lower seed, the refs arent calling anything. It looks like a big east mens game... shoving, wrestling, clawing...

Used to be the argument for womens basketball is it was 'purer' or more traditional, more fundimentally sound, than the mens game. Well, if this is an example, it looks just as ugly as the worst examples of the mens game.

While writing this things have gone downhill fast for the devils... seemed to me the spartans were really feeding off the crowd back when it was tied up.

What a crock.

_Gary
03-24-2009, 09:06 PM
Not looking good with about 2 minutes to go. MSU up by 6 with the ball. Make that 8. The girls are headed home. :(

It really stinks that this setup allowed MSU to play a home game. And don't think for one second it didn't make a huge difference. The crowd has been rabid for most of the 2nd half, but has really made a difference for the Spartans late in the game.

And yes, this game has looked like a men's Big East game. Extremely physical and that has played into MSU's hands. Duke missed a ton of bunnies in the 2nd half because of all the contact allowed. It's really pathetic.

summerwind03
03-24-2009, 09:09 PM
What a shame. The women had a really good year. I'm sorry they didn't advance farther.

Lulu
03-24-2009, 09:12 PM
I'm glad I don't watch women's bball. I feel like I'm watching a different sport considering the officiating.

I won't pretend that I care, but what kind of nonsense is this that the #1 seed is playing #9 on their home floor? Remind me not to watch next year.

DukeUsul
03-24-2009, 09:13 PM
I really hope this gets the conversation going about taking the 1/2 round model back to the way it used to be. We may not have won this at Cameron, but it certainly would have helped.

_Gary
03-24-2009, 09:14 PM
This game has pissed me off beyond belief. And I don't use the "p" word very often. I just can't believe the Committee allowed this type of setup where MSU could get to play a 2nd round game at home. What an absolute crock! :mad:

MSU 63, Duke 49.

CameronBornAndBred
03-24-2009, 09:15 PM
Well crapola. I know that's not the way anyone wanted it to end, but it's over. The team did lots of things to be proud about this year, they were a lot of fun to follow. Thanks especially to the seniors for 4 years of fun.

_Gary
03-24-2009, 09:16 PM
Even the MSU head coach just admitted in the post game interview that playing at home made a "huge difference" for her team. Again I say, "WHAT A CROCK!!!" :mad:

Stray Gator
03-24-2009, 09:17 PM
Yes, MSU had the home-court advantage. Yes, the officials allowed a lot of physical contact. But in the stretch run, when the score was tied at 47, we had two or three offensive possessions with a chance to pull ahead; but each time, our players were extremely weak with the ball when they got it down low--Black let the ball be taken away from her on two straight possessions, and then Joy Cheek had the ball and simply lost control of it to an MSU player. Next thing you know, MSU is up by 6. And on virtually every rebound in the last 6 minutes, Duke was outhustled or outmuscled by opposing players who simply went after the ball harder. Duke did not score a field goal in the last 7.5 minutes. Give the Spartans credit--they fought for and earned this win.

CameronBornAndBred
03-24-2009, 09:18 PM
Yes, MSU had the home-court advantage. Yes, the officials allowed a lot of physical contact. But in the stretch run, when the score was tied at 47, we had two or three offensive possessions with a chance to pull ahead; but each time, our players were extremely weak with the ball when they got it down low--Black let the ball be taken away from her on two straight possessions, and then Joy Cheek had the ball and simply lost control of it to an MSU player. Next thing you know, MSU is up by 6. And on virtually every rebound in the last 6 minutes, Duke was outhustled or outmuscled by opposing players who simply went after the ball harder. Duke did not score a field goal in the last 7.5 minutes. Give the Spartans credit--they fought for and earned this win.
Hard to argue with that, the last two to four minutes were key and we didn't convert opportunities into points.

_Gary
03-24-2009, 09:20 PM
Stray, I understand what you are saying. I watched that entire stretch carefully as well and an argument can be made that the girls were not up to the challenge physically at the end. Having said all that, I do believe we got hacked repeatedly under the basket when many of our bunnies didn't fall. Call it what you will, but the way the game was called helped out MSU a heck of a lot more than it did us.

Duvall
03-24-2009, 09:20 PM
A program-killing loss. The last thing Duke had going for it was the lingering perception that it was an elite program. Now that that has been exploded, what talented recruit will touch this program?

I guess we'll just have to wait.

CameronBornAndBred
03-24-2009, 09:23 PM
A program-killing loss. The last thing Duke had going for it was the lingering perception that it was an elite program. Now that that has been exploded, what talented recruit will touch this program?

I guess we'll just have to wait.
What the hell are you talking about? I'll post on this later but I'll quick point on it now to all the naysayers about McCallie's recruiting and our future. Do you know who we just lost to? McCallie's recruits.
The program will be just fine.

NYC Duke Fan
03-24-2009, 09:24 PM
This game has pissed me off beyond belief. And I don't use the "p" word very often. I just can't believe the Committee allowed this type of setup whMSU could get to play a 2nd round game at home. What an absolute crock! :mad:

MSU 63, Duke 49.

Crock or not , I am just not impressed with Coach Mac. I don't care where the the game was being played, a number 1 seed just does not lose by 14 points to a number 9 seed. The team was not prepared to play. Or maybe, Duke was not deserving of a number 1 seed.

The Coach has to do better next year in the tournament. I don't care how Duke did in the regular season, she just does not get them ready for the tournament. Didn't Duke lose early last year also ?

Maybe, she was not the right hire for Duke. A few years ago, Duke was mentioned in the same breath as Tennessee and Connecticut...not any more. Yes, I know that Tennessee lost its first round game, but I can guarantee you that they will rise to pre-eminence way, way, before Duke does. I just do not see this coach doing it...just my opinion.

CameronBornAndBred
03-24-2009, 09:26 PM
To further touch on my above points...because that ticked me off, this year we
Beat Maryland, Rutgers, UNC, Stanford, Tennessee
Earned a #1 seed in the NCAA tourney
Played in the ACC championship game for the second year in a row.

One loss in the NCAA tourney is not the death knell of our program, we improved greatly over last year and there is no reason to believe it won't continue.

dukemsu
03-24-2009, 09:26 PM
Duke-MSU battles are my least favorite days in sports, other than the day after the season ends.

There was no excuse for Duke being put into the situation they faced tonight. The Spartans were in wait, and won an ugly game.

If nothing else, hopefully this brings closure to the issue.

dukemsu

Duke84Blue
03-24-2009, 09:27 PM
Missed last 16 shots, no baskets in last 7+ minutes. Finished with 18 baskets, 15 turnovers. Overall shot 27%. Tough to win with that kind of offense.

Duvall
03-24-2009, 09:27 PM
What the hell are you talking about? I'll post on this later but I'll quick point on it now to all the naysayers about McCallie's recruiting and our future. Do you know who we just lost to? McCallie's recruits.

Yeah, about that. It was obvious which team had the better game plan tonight, and it wasn't the team prepared by Joanne McCallie. It was also obvious which team had the more talented players tonight, and it wasn't the team assembled by Joanne McCallie. That speaks volumes about the future.


The program will be just fine.

No, it won't. Well, perhaps in the long run, if we're lucky enough to hire a coach that can rebuild the program. Then again, in the long run we're all dead.

gadzooks
03-24-2009, 09:28 PM
It really stinks that this setup allowed MSU to play a home game. And don't think for one second it didn't make a huge difference. The crowd has been rabid for most of the 2nd half, but has really made a difference for the Spartans late in the game.

And yes, this game has looked like a men's Big East game. Extremely physical and that has played into MSU's hands. Duke missed a ton of bunnies in the 2nd half because of all the contact allowed. It's really pathetic.Yeah, I think both the location and the officiating made a huge difference in this game. I was really disgusted by, in just one instance, watching Joy get absolutely mauled and no whistle, they had to call a timeout. :rolleyes:

godukecom
03-24-2009, 09:29 PM
I am going to cry.
what a terrible way for these seniors to go out
then again, it really brings closure to the G era. While there are still some of G's recruits, the most influential ones are now gone.

I dont care what you say; that is nonsense that Duke had to play on MSU's home floor

zingit
03-24-2009, 09:29 PM
So so so so disappointing. I really thought they could make it to the Final Four. What a way for Carrem, Chante, and Abby to go out. I feel bad for them.

The crowd definitely made a difference. It's hard to keep your focus when everyone in the building is against you. This team has played badly on the road all year. But we also had trouble with their defense and couldn't seem to drive the ball inside at all--or hit shots once we got the ball there. Part of that was the "let them play" officiating, but still, they should be tougher. I really thought they were better than this.

Ugh ugh ugh. This really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm sure it will leave a bad taste for the returning players as well, and they can use that as motivation.

DukeBeliever
03-24-2009, 09:30 PM
We need to start a petition. There is no way that we, as a #1 seed should've been playing a #9 seed on their homecourt. How is that fair?

DukieInKansas
03-24-2009, 09:30 PM
To further touch on my above points...because that ticked me off, this year we
Beat Maryland, Rutgers, UNC, Stanford, Tennessee
Earned a #1 seed in the NCAA tourney
Played in the ACC championship game for the second year in a row.

One loss in the NCAA tourney is not the death knell of our program, we improved greatly over last year and there is no reason to believe it won't continue.

I actually watched more women's games this year than in the past. I have to agree with CB&B - the team accomplished a lot this season. Yes, this was a disappointing end to the season, but the team has a lot to be proud of. I hope when the disappointment of the loss passes for them that they can look at the things that they did during the season and get some satisfaction from it.

Thank you, ladies for representing our university well. Thank you Coach P. I look forward to next season.

miramar
03-24-2009, 09:30 PM
Duke did a lot of great things this year on the way to a 27-6 record and a #1 seed. Nevertheless, the team truly regressed this game. Duke shot 18/67 (27%), which must be the worst postseason performance in a long, long time.

I don’t want to give one game too much importance, but Duke offered Coach P a $600K contract with the expectation that she would build on what Coach G created at Duke. In fact, Coach P came in with the idea that her offensive scheme would be more successful in March, but that certainly doesn’t seem to be working out. It really doesn't matter where they played or how the officials called the game, Duke had to play much, much better.

I don’t know what the solution is, but there is no reason for Duke to continue to have the same problems with turnovers and poor shooting time and time again. The team has way too much talent to have these recurring problems. I wouldn't call it a program-killing loss, and I don't expect huge changes from one year to the next, but the AD is going to have to take a long, hard look at WBB.

Duvall
03-24-2009, 09:31 PM
We need to start a petition. There is no way that we, as a #1 seed should've been playing a #9 seed on their homecourt. How is that fair?

A #1 seed should be able to beat #9 anywhere, as long as the team has been properly prepared.

taiw93
03-24-2009, 09:32 PM
I really think Coach P needs to revise her offensive system. The team looked like an elite team (and #1 seed) on the defensive end, but their offense was well below average the entire season.

_Gary
03-24-2009, 09:35 PM
Here's the thing. A lot of people that didn't see the game will look at the shooting percentage and think we missed a ton of outside shots and didn't look to get the ball inside. But the truth is we did get the ball inside - plenty. We just got mauled every time and the refs swallowed their whistles. This was actually a game where we needed to be able to hit the outside shots simply because going inside was more difficult that shooting 20 footers (due, again, to the way the game was officiated). Unfortunately we just didn't have enough players step up and hit those outside shots. We did the right thing by getting the ball inside. But it's hard to hit shots when people are allowed to maul you.

As for the program's future, I'd be lying if I didn't say the same thought about recruiting suffering a bit didn't cross my mind. I don't think this is a program killer, per se, but we certainly didn't do ourselves any favors in that regard either. Gonna be interesting to see if Coach P can push this team to a Final Four birth next year. I hope so, because we can't afford another 2nd round exit in 2010 and expect to get elite recruits.

miramar
03-24-2009, 09:39 PM
A #1 seed should be able to beat #9 anywhere, as long as the team has been properly prepared.

I realize that it's ridiculous for a #9 seed to have the home court advantage, but I have to agree with you.

CameronBornAndBred
03-24-2009, 09:40 PM
I hope so, because we can't afford another 2nd round exit in 2010 and expect to get elite recruits.
I'm glad Elliot Williams and the Plumlees didn't subscribe to the 2cnd round exit theory.

Duvall
03-24-2009, 09:41 PM
I'm glad Elliot Williams and the Plumlees didn't subscribe to the 2cnd round exit theory.

They chose to play for a Hall of Fame coach. Mike Krzyzewski's accomplishments have earned him a certain latitude that lesser coaches do not have.

lifelongdevil
03-24-2009, 09:42 PM
Yeah, about that. It was obvious which team had the better game plan tonight, and it wasn't the team prepared by Joanne McCallie. It was also obvious which team had the more talented players tonight, and it wasn't the team assembled by Joanne McCallie. That speaks volumes about the future.

amen

miramar
03-24-2009, 09:43 PM
I'm glad Elliot Williams and the Plumlees didn't subscribe to the 2cnd round exit theory.

I realize that the two situations are not entirely comparable, but I'm glad to see that we haven't lost our sense of humor entirely. That's actually a very positive trait at times like these.

JG Nothing
03-24-2009, 09:44 PM
Missed last 16 shots, no baskets in last 7+ minutes. Finished with 18 baskets, 15 turnovers. Overall shot 27%. Tough to win with that kind of offense.

To quote McCallie:
"I'd like to state for the record that offense is overrated."
http://seminoles.cstv.com/sports/w-baskbl/recaps/012909aaa.html
"I don't like to make a big deal about offense, it's overrated."
http://www.roanoke.com/sports/uvabasketball/wb/193780

dukeman28428
03-24-2009, 09:44 PM
The Duke ladies had a great season and I still cannot beleive that they shot so poorly in the game tonight. No field goals in last 7+ minutes will not win many, if any, games. But, they tried their best and I am proud of them. Bracket for Duke was toughest one and we should have beaten MSU tonight and I feel sorry for Coach P and our players. But they are Duke and we love them and thanks for the memories!! Come back next year stronger and better.
:)

_Gary
03-24-2009, 09:45 PM
They chose to play for a Hall of Fame coach. Mike Krzyzewski's accomplishments have earned him a certain latitude that lesser coaches do not have.

Exactly. Why in the world would anyone be comparing Coach P with Coach K. Apples and oranges, to say the least. :rolleyes:

dukeman28428
03-24-2009, 09:49 PM
I agree that our team did not look prepared tonight but the players missed the shots and we will have to wait and see how well Coach P does in the future.

It is hard to take a defeat like tonight when we played so poorly but I am stil proud of our team.

DukieInKansas
03-24-2009, 09:49 PM
I'm glad Elliot Williams and the Plumlees didn't subscribe to the 2cnd round exit theory.

I had the same thought - without names.

Coach P has taken a team to a Final Four - MSU in 2005. I think she will do it again. A change in coaching staff takes time to get established. Ask Coach G who went home after the first game this year.

miramar
03-24-2009, 09:53 PM
To quote McCallie:
"I'd like to state for the record that offense is overrated."
http://seminoles.cstv.com/sports/w-baskbl/recaps/012909aaa.html
"I don't like to make a big deal about offense, it's overrated."
http://www.roanoke.com/sports/uvabasketball/wb/193780

Well, there you have it.

BD80
03-24-2009, 09:58 PM
Recruits can see the prospect of immediate PT

Duvall
03-24-2009, 09:58 PM
A change in coaching staff takes time to get established.

A roster with seven high school All-Americans usually makes the transition easier. Or at least it should.

JG Nothing
03-24-2009, 10:00 PM
What the hell are you talking about? I'll post on this later but I'll quick point on it now to all the naysayers about McCallie's recruiting and our future. Do you know who we just lost to? McCallie's recruits.
The program will be just fine.

Uh, you mean those same recruits that were 21-10, lost in the first round of the Big Ten tourney to a seven seed, and won their opening round game by one point against Middle Tennessee State? Michigan State is a good team, but they are a nine seed for a reason. Duke had seven MacDonald All-Americans. How many does Michigan State have? The answer is zero. We lost to a less talented team. The loss was due in part to the venue, but that was not the main factor. A one seed should be able to win on a nine seed's home court.

JDukie
03-24-2009, 10:02 PM
I don't post here often but I hate this loss for our Senior girls and want to voice my concerns. The team was obviously not prepared for this battle and while I don't like it that we had to play on the opponents home court, it should not have mattered! I don't think this is a program killer but our program is in serious decline due to a coach that admittedly does not like to recruit and is not a good game coach. There were no adjustments made at all tonight and again I say, we did not come prepared. I believe Coach P felt the pressure of returning to MSU and let that get to her own team. We were clearly in the same league as Tennessee and UConn just two years ago and those days are in our rearview mirror until someone takes on the job of rebuilding what we once had. I surely hope that our new AD is more concerned with the women's program than the one that now resides in Baton Rouge.

zingit
03-24-2009, 10:07 PM
I'd say a major summer priority of this team should be getting better at shooting the 3. We have been partially able to neutralize our bad shooting with our offensive rebounding, but still, it just opens things up when defenses have to respect our shooters. It would have made it harder for teams this year to double-team Chante Black.

Some of the problems we had tonight were problems we've had all year, like shooting, but some were really aberrations. We live off turnovers: our opponents usually give up the ball 23 times a game, tonight it was only 14.

*Sigh.* I don't know how I'm going to get work done tonight. This loss hurts.

Oh yeah, and one bad game does not make me give up on a coach. This team still did a lot to be proud of.

Inonehand
03-24-2009, 10:10 PM
Uh, you mean those same recruits that were 21-10, lost in the first round of the Big Ten tourney to a seven seed, and won their opening round game by one point against Middle Tennessee State? Michigan State is a good team, but they are a nine seed for a reason. Duke had seven MacDonald All-Americans. How many does Michigan State have? The answer is zero. We lost to a less talented team. The loss was due in part to the venue, but that was not the main factor. A one seed should be able to win on a nine seed's home court.

I've barely read any of this thread but one thing that bothers me here, and when talking about men's hoops is the talk of 'McDonald's AAs'. Please. We hear it all the time that Coach K has more MAAs than anybody else and isn't winning as much as he should be lately considering that fact. It is a weak argument against Coach K. It is a weak argument against Coach P. Be upset with the loss. I am. But can we get beyond that MAA argument?

roywhite
03-24-2009, 10:12 PM
Watched a good part of the game and sorry to see the season end on a sour note. The team accomplished a lot this year, with a great record and the #1 seed. It was a poor performance down the stretch tonight; I doubt anyone feels worse about it than the coach and the team. But I expect they'll move on, and will continue to have success. Best wishes to a great senior class as they approach graduation and new pursuits.

Frankly, I'm dismayed by the negativity of some of the posts here tonight. These are student-athletes and coaches who have represented our school in a first-class manner; don't kick them when they're down. The idea that the program is down in the dumps is ludicrous. It's hard to stay at a high level, but this was an excellent team this year, and has the foundation for success next year and beyond.

Congrats on a good season, team.

watzone
03-24-2009, 10:16 PM
Firstly, hate to see Abby, Chante and Gay go out this way. MSU played over their heads, but Duke looked flat as a pancake. Not scoring in the last 7 minutes? Whew!

Coach P brought a defensive system to Duke. She followed the up tempo style Coach G brought to the table, so it's not as pretty.

Keep in mind that Duke did have a good season, but this breaks a long string of sweet 16's.

As for recruiting, it's already a notch below what it used to be. Still, you have to give Coach P a chance to play with her players.

dukelifer
03-24-2009, 10:18 PM
Watched a good part of the game and sorry to see the season end on a sour note. The team accomplished a lot this year, with a great record and the #1 seed. It was a poor performance down the stretch tonight; I doubt anyone feels worse about it than the coach and the team. But I expect they'll move on, and will continue to have success. Best wishes to a great senior class as they approach graduation and new pursuits.

Frankly, I'm dismayed by the negativity of some of the posts here tonight. These are student-athletes and coaches who have represented our school in a first-class manner; don't kick them when they're down. The idea that the program is down in the dumps is ludicrous. It's hard to stay at a high level, but this was an excellent team this year, and has the foundation for success next year and beyond.

Congrats on a good season, team.

Duke had an off night. They have struggled at times all year on the offensive end. Usually their D got the job done- but tonight Duke's best players did not play their best. When things get tough- someone needs to take over. That did not happen. Remember, Waner was/is hurt and Black had a very difficult time shooting against their zone. This was a bad loss but one that can be explained- given the opponent- the venue and the state of the team. Duke had an excellent season. I expected them to make a run- but alas it did not happen this year.

zingit
03-24-2009, 10:21 PM
I've barely read any of this thread but one thing that bothers me here, and when talking about men's hoops is the talk of 'McDonald's AAs'. Please. We hear it all the time that Coach K has more MAAs than anybody else and isn't winning as much as he should be lately considering that fact. It is a weak argument against Coach K. It is a weak argument against Coach P. Be upset with the loss. I am. But can we get beyond that MAA argument?

I couldn't agree more. So what if they're a nine-seed? It's March. Upsets happen every year. Nearly every team can play. There is getting to be more and more parity in the women's game; I'm not going to go and count them up, but it seems like there have been as many upsets in the women's tournament this year and last as there have been in the men's tournament. This idea that there's only a handful of elite teams and everyone else in women's basketball doesn't fit anymore. A nine-seed is very capable of pulling an upset, especially if it's playing a home game.

DukieInKansas
03-24-2009, 10:27 PM
Consider this: Team plays in Finals of NCAA Tournament, next year makes it to 2nd round, next year to the Elite 8. There is a coaching change and the team goes to the NIT the first year, no post season tournament the next 2 years, then to the 2nd round of the NCAA tournament the next two years. There were many calls for the 2nd coach to be fired. The AD stuck with the coach and the rest is history. Oh - the new coach came with a losing record, as I recall.

I'm going to reserve judgement on Coach P. Based on the above history sometimes that works out best. Do I think Coach P is another Coach K? I have no idea but I think she deserves a more than 2 seasons. She built MSU into an elite program and I think she deserves more than 2 years at Duke to show her abilities.

Duvall
03-24-2009, 10:36 PM
Consider this: Team plays in Finals of NCAA Tournament, next year makes it to 2nd round, next year to the Elite 8. There is a coaching change and the team goes to the NIT the first year, no post season tournament the next 2 years, then to the 2nd round of the NCAA tournament the next two years. There were many calls for the 2nd coach to be fired. The AD stuck with the coach and the rest is history. Oh - the new coach came with a losing record, as I recall.

I'm going to reserve judgement on Coach P. Based on the above history sometimes that works out best. Do I think Coach P is another Coach K? I have no idea but I think she deserves a more than 2 seasons. She built MSU into an elite program and I think she deserves more than 2 years at Duke to show her abilities.

That just-so story might actually mean something if the coach in question had been left one of the most talented rosters in the country, and not a team reliant on marginal talents.

formerdukeathlete
03-24-2009, 10:41 PM
Firstly, hate to see Abby, Chante and Gay go out this way. MSU played over their heads, but Duke looked flat as a pancake. Not scoring in the last 7 minutes? Whew!

Coach P brought a defensive system to Duke. She followed the up tempo style Coach G brought to the table, so it's not as pretty.

Keep in mind that Duke did have a good season, but this breaks a long string of sweet 16's.

As for recruiting, it's already a notch below what it used to be. Still, you have to give Coach P a chance to play with her players.


I would be as or more concerned about the recruiting. outcoached tonight, could have been an off night, etc. but, if the trend line is down in the recruiting department, and, watz, you know this better than most anyone, one wonders why. she might turn out to be a Bob Knight and make great out of slightly lesser talent. this may be what we have to hope for at this point.

Duvall
03-24-2009, 10:44 PM
I would be as or more concerned about the recruiting. outcoached tonight, could have been an off night, etc. but, if the trend line is down in the recruiting department, and, watz, you know this better than most anyone, one wonders why. she might turn out to be a Bob Knight and make great out of slightly lesser talent. this may be what we have to hope for at this point.

Knight made great out of great talent, like all great coaches.

Based on the early returns, Duke's talent will be significantly lesser in the coming years, not slightly lesser.

sue71, esq
03-24-2009, 10:47 PM
According to a poster on TDD, the Cal/UVa tournament game was played in Los Angeles and had a turnout of only 686. Not good.

Cal had just been @ the Galen Center the previous weekend for the Pac-10 Tourney, where they lost to USC in the semis. Their peeps were not thrilled about the return trip.

sue71, esq
03-24-2009, 10:49 PM
Yes, MSU had the home-court advantage. Yes, the officials allowed a lot of physical contact. But in the stretch run, when the score was tied at 47, we had two or three offensive possessions with a chance to pull ahead; but each time, our players were extremely weak with the ball when they got it down low--Black let the ball be taken away from her on two straight possessions, and then Joy Cheek had the ball and simply lost control of it to an MSU player. Next thing you know, MSU is up by 6. And on virtually every rebound in the last 6 minutes, Duke was outhustled or outmuscled by opposing players who simply went after the ball harder. Duke did not score a field goal in the last 7.5 minutes. Give the Spartans credit--they fought for and earned this win.


Hard to argue with that, the last two to four minutes were key and we didn't convert opportunities into points.

I turned it on shortly before this series started. I was aghast, to say the least. I couldn't believe all the stops that MSU got.

Capn Poptart
03-24-2009, 11:08 PM
Does it feel a little like we're at a crossroads? Like we'll either continue to be a top 5 program or adjust expectations and be basically a top 20 program...

Duvall
03-24-2009, 11:10 PM
Does it feel a little like we're at a crossroads? Like we'll either continue to be a top 5 program or adjust expectations and be basically a top 20 program...

Given the recruiting of the last couple of years, a top 20 program would be a pleasant surprise.

And the crossroads has already been passed. Now is just the time that we are starting to realize it.

buddy
03-24-2009, 11:21 PM
The women shot 27% from the field. You can't beat anyone shooting 27%. There was no leadership anywhere. This is a very disappointing end to what was otherwise a good season. Lots of people associated with this program need to look in the mirror. This was a total team effort tonight. I didn't see any WNBA players on the court for Duke.

godukecom
03-24-2009, 11:31 PM
As a season ticket holder, I have to agree; this team is long past the crossroads.

This team will not continue to be a top 25 team at this rate. I think the glory days of DWB left with G, although obviously i would like nothing more than to be wrong.

A-Tex Devil
03-24-2009, 11:44 PM
Duke, UNC, FSU, GaTech, UVa, all gone.

RockyMtnBlueDevil
03-25-2009, 12:19 AM
The worst thing about the women's tournament is the hosting of the 1st and 2nd rounds on home floors. No way Duke as a 1 seed should have to play on MSU's floor. Same thing happened to Auburn (2 seed) playing at Rutgers (7) and getting run out of the gym...

MADevil30
03-25-2009, 12:24 AM
The worst thing about the women's tournament is the hosting of the 1st and 2nd rounds on home floors. No way Duke as a 1 seed should have to play on MSU's floor. Same thing happened to Auburn (2 seed) playing at Rutgers (7) and getting run out of the gym...

I agree. Although they played a bad game and could have avoided this outcome, our team got hosed by the NCAA. Imagine if this happened in the men's tournament, ESPN writers would still be spitting out editorials about it in July

Gunnar Kaufman
03-25-2009, 12:25 AM
The women's team is at the precipice, enjoying the remnants of the G-era and about to face the reality of recruiting a level of talent that hasn't been in Durham in a decade.

If McCallie can produce ACC-championship teams, then great.

But tonight she lost to a team that lost its point guard but a month ago. That's not good.

msdukie
03-25-2009, 12:26 AM
What the hell are you talking about? I'll post on this later but I'll quick point on it now to all the naysayers about McCallie's recruiting and our future. Do you know who we just lost to? McCallie's recruits.
The program will be just fine.

In other words, McCallie can't even beat her own non-highly rated recruits (a 9 seed, unranked) with 7 McDonalds All-Americans brought in by Coach G (and ZERO brought in by McCallie). Yes, the program will be just fine....

I don't say this to be snarky, I say this as a concerned long-time season ticket holder who cares greatly about the future of the program and our national perception as an elite program.

Gunnar Kaufman
03-25-2009, 12:31 AM
Winning starts with talent. McCallie ain't bringin' it.
(http://insider.espn.go.com/ncw/recruiting/tracker/espnu100?&season=2009&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncw %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fespnu100%3f%26season%3d2 009)

Hofstra and James Madison are bringing in players rated higher than Duke's top-rated commit.

McCallie will be able to keep Duke in the top-half of the ACC. But that's it. UNC and Maryland shall be in cruise control.

CameronBornAndBred
03-25-2009, 12:43 AM
I agree. Although they played a bad game and could have avoided this outcome, our team got hosed by the NCAA. Imagine if this happened in the men's tournament, ESPN writers would still be spitting out editorials about it in July
That's actually probably true, and a great way to look at it. I think, and I'm sure the team does as well, that a champion will win anywhere. That being said your comment is pretty thought provoking. Made me laugh too, and I needed one.

FireOgilvie
03-25-2009, 12:45 AM
Winning starts with talent. McCallie ain't bringin' it.
(http://insider.espn.go.com/ncw/recruiting/tracker/espnu100?&season=2009&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncw %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fespnu100%3f%26season%3d2 009)

Hofstra and James Madison are bringing in players rated higher than Duke's top-rated commit.

McCallie will be able to keep Duke in the top-half of the ACC. But that's it. UNC and Maryland shall be in cruise control.

Ugh. UNC has 4 girls ahead of our only one on the list... and a fifth right behind her.

msdukie
03-25-2009, 12:58 AM
More food for thought from the wire story:

"In more than a decade, the only top-seeded team to lose in the second round was Ohio State in 2006 setback against eighth-seeded Boston College."

"The last time a national power was eliminated this early in the NCAA tournament was 1997."

Our loss was the top story on SportsCenter, and is the front article on ESPN.com and SI.com. That means we are still nationally relevant. The most important thing is that we stay that way.

brevity
03-25-2009, 02:33 AM
Tough loss for the Blue Devils. I don't have strong feelings for or against Coach P, but over the past few years I've found that women's college basketball has become a deeply frustrating sport.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the Cal-USC game in the Pac-10 tournament. But did anyone see it? I stumbled upon it on FSN during a timeout of the Big East title game, and stuck with it. Cal was down by 2 with 0.3 seconds left. They did what they had to do to tie the game -- a lob, a tip, a score -- but then the officials, influenced by USC's bully of a coach (who needed the win to have any shot at an NCAA bid), spent 15 minutes watching the play over and over before deciding the basket should not count. It was maddening.

I kind of felt that Duke lost this game a couple of nights ago, when Michigan State played Middle Tennessee State. I watched some of that game too, and MTSU had the host's number until Alysha Clark (also the nation's top scorer) fouled out. Then it was a slow disintegration of the team, and the Spartans needed only the bare minimum to catch up and pull ahead.

I've tried watching some of this year's tournament, but everything about it -- the coaches, officials, and especially ESPN's whip-around coverage -- feels second-rate. This atmosphere influences the players. Say what you want about CBS (and there's a whole thread where we have), but they really don't screw up the men's tournament that badly. A few tweaks would reduce a large number of our complaints.

Women's basketball, on the other hand, needs to get over its inferiority complex. It's a great sport and potentially even a great product. It doesn't need the kid gloves.

NYC Duke Fan
03-25-2009, 02:46 AM
We replaced a coach who liked to and could recruit with a coach who can't and doesn't like to recruit. Good job Joe !!!

Look for Duke womens basketball to return to mediocrity.

heyman25
03-25-2009, 03:26 AM
We replaced a coach who liked to and could recruit with a coach who can't and doesn't like to recruit. Good job Joe !!!

Look for Duke womens basketball to return to mediocrity.

I can accept losses as a fan, but this was a horrendous performance. No adjustments were made when time and time again Cheek and Black were totally neutralized in the paint.I thought what would end their run in the tourney would be going ice cold.Refereeing was inept,the homecourt was a disadvantage,but the Duke players missed their last 16 shots. Usually after a play Duke should have converted into a score Michigan State would convert. Tonight's team looked mediocre.Time will tell if this is the swoon the hard core women's fans are predicting. Gay had a hot hand in the ACC tourney,then she plays 17 minutes and gets 3 shot attempts. That is insane. Joy Cheek gets most of the playing time and shoots a little over 25%.They were not prepared very well for this game.It is still up to the players to execute, and they must look in the mirror.Very sad way to lose.

arnie
03-25-2009, 08:46 AM
We replaced a coach who liked to and could recruit with a coach who can't and doesn't like to recruit. Good job Joe !!!

Look for Duke womens basketball to return to mediocrity.

This is one of many Alleva "accomplishments" at Duke.

blueprofessor
03-25-2009, 09:20 AM
Winning starts with talent. McCallie ain't bringin' it.
(http://insider.espn.go.com/ncw/recruiting/tracker/espnu100?&season=2009&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncw %2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fespnu100%3f%26season%3d2 009)

Hofstra and James Madison are bringing in players rated higher than Duke's top-rated commit.

McCallie will be able to keep Duke in the top-half of the ACC. But that's it. UNC and Maryland shall be in cruise control.

are prerequisites for a consistently top 10 program. Duke, for 10 years prior to Coach M among the top 4 programs in the country, played very few freshmen this year.The class of 2009 Duke recruits includes 1 ranked 82.

Here is our competition for the class of 2009, with Cal,GA,Baylor,Stanford, CT,TN, LSU,and TX taking much of the remaining cream :
UNC--9,23,28,31,and 88 with a top pg returning.
UVA--14,21,37, and 71.
Miami--33.
NCST--46.
MD--52.
GATech--53.
Wake--72.
DUKE--82.
Clemson--100.

There is little quality depth among women's high school seniors past the top 50--100.Top programs load up with top 50 rated recruits.
One thing our Duke coach, who by her own and others' analyses does not value offense and has confessed to disliking the inconvenience of recruiting, needs is talent.TALENT.
Read the list and see the future.

As much as I want this team to do well,here is the reality.

Best--Blueprof:(

NYC Duke Fan
03-25-2009, 09:29 AM
are prerequisites for a consistently top 10 program. Duke, for 10 years prior to Coach M among the top 4 programs in the country, played very few freshmen this year.The class of 2009 Duke recruits include 1 ranked 82.

Here is our competition for the class of 2009, with Cal,GA,Baylor,Stanford, CT,TN, LSU,and TX taking much of the remaining cream :
UNC--9,23,28,31,and 88 with a top pg returning.
UVA--14,21,37, and 71.
Miami--33.
NCST--46.
MD--52.
GATech--53.
Wake--72.
DUKE--82.
Clemson--100.

There is little quality depth among women's high school seniors past the top 50--100.Top programs load up with top 50 rated recruits.
One thing our Duke coach, who by her own and others' analyses does not value offense and has confessed to disliking the inconvenience of recruiting, needs is talent.TALENT.
Read the list and see the future.

As much as I want this team to do well,here is the reality.

Best--Blueprof:(

Good Analysis...How did we ever hire a coach who in her own words dislikes recruiting ? If that is indeed the case then maybe it is time to cut bait with her.

I might be mistaken, and if I am then forgive me, but I thought that I read somewhere that this was the earliest time that a number 1 seed had ever been eliminated in either the men's or women's tournament. If that is the case then it is quite an accomplishment that Cioach P has on her resume.

pbc2
03-25-2009, 09:30 AM
For those complaining about Coach P, Coach G and Texas lost in the first round. Coach G did great things at Duke. Coach P did great things at Michigan State. I am willing to give Coach P time to establish her program and her system here. Her teams play with a lot of defensive intensity, which I would think Duke fans would be more appreciative of.

pbc2
03-25-2009, 09:33 AM
Good Analysis...How did we ever hire a coach who in her own words dislikes recruiting ? If that is indeed the case then maybe it is time to cut bait with her.

I might be mistaken, and if I am then forgive me, but I thought that I read somewhere that this was the earliest time that a number 1 seed had ever been eliminated in either the men's or women's tournament. If that is the case then it is quite an accomplishment that Cioach P has on her resume.

Not correct. #1 Stanford lost to #16 Harvard in 1998. In 2006, #1 Ohio State lost to #8 Boston College.

roywhite
03-25-2009, 09:56 AM
For those complaining about Coach P, Coach G and Texas lost in the first round. Coach G did great things at Duke. Coach P did great things at Michigan State. I am willing to give Coach P time to establish her program and her system here. Her teams play with a lot of defensive intensity, which I would think Duke fans would be more appreciative of.

Entirely reasonable, and I'm dismayed to see the vicious criticism of Coach P. She's been here two years! Give her a chance.

What did Coach K's recruiting look like in 1981 and 1982?

blueprofessor
03-25-2009, 10:00 AM
For those complaining about Coach P, Coach G and Texas lost in the first round. Coach G did great things at Duke. Coach P did great things at Michigan State. I am willing to give Coach P time to establish her program and her system here. Her teams play with a lot of defensive intensity, which I would think Duke fans would be more appreciative of.

and Coach M is not bringing it in.This is indisputable.There is no equivalency between M's record at MST and GG's 10 years of national excellence.There are lots of 1 year wonders who made a single FF.
M's scheme,w/o talent, will be defeated by ACC and numerous other schools who have good amounts of top 50--100 talent.
It is not like she makes great game adjustments so that she can consistently beat more talented opponents.Old-timers who support the Duke women's team acknowledge her game coaching deficiency.
Would 2 more seasons (4 in all) be sufficient to monitor present trends and then have the AD act?
The deeper the hole, the longer the struggle back to prominence.At some point of a program's failure, recruits don't give you a glance.:(

So agree on a time frame and then act with dispatch---but do not allow a great program to be mired in mediocrity.

Best--Blueprof:)

jv001
03-25-2009, 10:09 AM
It was enjoyable to watch Coach G's teams. Her teams were entertaining and recruiting was excellent. We were in the top 10 most every year and among the top 2 or 3 ranked programs some years. Since G left for Texas, our team has not played up to the programs of the past. We look terrible on offense and we turn the ball over more than a winless high school team. For Coach P to say offense is over rated is a testament to where this team is going. She is not recruiting high level players and she seems to be at a loss during the games. She does not have the look of a confident coach when things are going poorly. I hate this loss for the seniors and by the way, Thanks Careem, Chante and Abby for picking Duke and giving it your all. We need more players like you. With only one top 100 player commited, the future for our womens team does not look bright. Hope I'm wrong. Go Duke!

miramar
03-25-2009, 10:16 AM
As noted above, McCallie has been quoted as saying that, "I'd like to state for the record that offense is overrated" and "I don't like to make a big deal about offense, it's overrated."

McCallie was named coach of the year in 2005 and reached the championship game that year, so she must be intelligent enough to understand that this attitude makes no sense. This year’s team did extremely well as it earned a #1 seed and a 27-6 record, but as we move on from here offense is clearly a pressing concern for the team.

It’s a major problem when the two starting point guards (the team’s second- and third-leading scorers) shoot 36.1% and 33.3% for the season. The team’s fourth-leading scorer shot 39.1%. Chante Black, the leading scorer, shot 0-3 on three pointers in what I assume must have been desperation shots, while these three players shot 28.6%, 29.9%, and 26.7% on threes.

The team as a whole shot 41.0% from the field and 32.0% on threes. Since the team averaged 17.6 offensive rebounds per game and created 23.3 turnovers, they must have generated a ton of putbacks and break-away layups. That suggests to me that when they had to set up the offense they would have shot no more than 35%.

The team only averaged 13.6 assists per game but also 19.1 turnovers, so they had 40% more turnovers than assists. While the Game Notes indicate that, “Duke’s inexperience at the point guard slot has led to the Blue Devils turning the ball away at a 19.3 clip this season [going into the final game],” I don’t think that a sophomore PG can be considered inexperienced. Either she is not a true PG or the offensive scheme needs repair.

As the coaching staff looks forward to next season, they have to forget the attitude that offense is overrated. For Duke to be successful in the long run, they are going to have to protect the ball and learn to shoot much better than they did this year. Considering the talent on this team, those should be fairly simple goals if the coaches place them as points of emphasis. At the same time, a more fluid offense should improve recruiting (another problem area, as Blueprof notes) because I don’t think that elite recruits want to play like this.

So I present a modest proposal: since McCallie is obviously a great coach for defense and rebounding, she should stick to those two areas and hire an offensive coordinator. It may sound strange, but it works for football and it would work for WBB.

Stray Gator
03-25-2009, 10:17 AM
For those complaining about Coach P, Coach G and Texas lost in the first round. Coach G did great things at Duke. Coach P did great things at Michigan State. I am willing to give Coach P time to establish her program and her system here. Her teams play with a lot of defensive intensity, which I would think Duke fans would be more appreciative of.

Having watched approximately half of the Duke women's games this season, I think it's accurate to say only that her teams play with a lot of defensive intensity at times. There have also been stretches during which they played very lackadaisical defense and seemed incapable of stopping the opponent from scoring easily on just about every possession.

In last night's game, the score was tied at 47-47 with 4 minutes to go. During that last 4 minutes, MSU outscored Duke 16-2...with Duke's only 2 points coming on a pair of free throws. Most telling are two facts:

First, MSU's 16 points came on 5 layups and 6 free throws--the Spartans were getting inside to the basket and getting open shots underneath at will. Do the math and see what 16 points in 4 minutes translates to over the course of a 40-minute game.

Second, during that last 4-minute stretch, when Duke's defensive intensity should have been ratcheted up to a peak level, they forced no turnovers.

So her team definitely did not "play with a lot of defensive intensity" when it mattered most. OTOH, I thought MSU played with impressive defensive intensity throughout the second half. Sure, they got away with some physical contact that should have been whistled. But the answer for that is to adjust to the way the game is being called and give as good as you get. Note that going into that last 4 minutes, the fouls were virtually even (12 against Duke, 11 against MSU), and Duke had actually attempted more free throws (10 to 8). But I suppose we could still blame the loss on the Spartans' home-court advantage...

Kedsy
03-25-2009, 10:39 AM
Entirely reasonable, and I'm dismayed to see the vicious criticism of Coach P. She's been here two years! Give her a chance.

What did Coach K's recruiting look like in 1981 and 1982?

I agree wholeheartedly. All this hating on Coach P and the team is kind of making me sick.

The team had 27 wins, made the final of the ACC tournament, and earned a #1 seed in the NCAA tournament, and people want to fire the woman? I have two words for those who harbor that sort of sense of entitlement: grow up.

MSUBBall
03-25-2009, 10:42 AM
I lived in Lansing MI almost all my life, went to Eastern Michigan University (where current MSU coach Suzy Merchant came from) and have been a die hard Spartan fan since day one.

I currently live in Raleigh NC, my fiance works in Durham as a teacher. I have been into ACC basketball since arriving in the summer of last year, because there is a great fan base around the area. Duke vs. UNC basketball reminds me of MSU vs UM in all sports, the close quarters and heated debates.

A few people I work with are Duke graduates, I have great conversations with them about basketball.

Needless to say I was very proud of my former woman's coach Suzy Merchant going to the Spartans, and even prouder of her accomplishments in this tournament against Duke and MSU's former coach.

I have read this whole thread and I am impressed with a lot of the responses. I do have a few thoughts.

Coach P as you refer to her as, is still young and doesn't have all her recruits. According to my conversations with recent Duke graduates she wasn't Duke's first choice.

My personal experience with this I look at a fairly similar situation with U of M football. Michigan wanted Les Miles and couldn't get him thus settling for Rich Rod (which 100% flipped U of M football from a traditional style to this spread offense crap, good luck trying to recruit people who want to go pro with this spread approach) and just had the worse season of the most winningest program in college football's history. Be proud that you aren't on that boat!

I know there are high expectations at Duke but I think it is fair to give her more than 2 years. There is more to be said on this subject but I don't have the knowledge to elaborate past my opinion.

When it came to game plan it seems Coach P brought her Big Ten style into ACC country. You can tell by PPG that there are big differences in ACC BBall and Big Ten.

Big Ten believes the best offense is an awesome defense, an awesome defense at any cost (usually physical abuse is the cost). ACC is no slouch on the defensive side but pride themselves on their scoring abilities a bit more than the Big Ten schools do.

Big Ten games are usually physical games. You have to earn your baskets, nothing is given away for free, that was how this game was played. You can't blame the lady Spartans for doing what the ref's allowed, and you can't blame the refs for at least being consistent throughout the game.

That being said, it was a hard fought game and the Duke women were more than up for the fight up until the end.

There may have been lack of adjustments on Coach P's side or maybe the team just lost momentum, or the will to continue, or maybe they just couldn't get their shots to drop. Hindsight is still unclear on this one.

As for the home court advantage, I found this thread looking up why the Spartans were playing at home. It is the NCAA's choice to use predetermined locations, the fact that the bracket played out like this is just something that everyone knows could happen, and did in this case.

According to the stats there was roughly 5,000 in attendance for the game, which for the Jack Breslin student event center, a place I have been to probably close to 100 times for men's games and a handful of woman's games. 5000 barely constitutes an echo in the 15,000 capacity building, though I'm sure those 5,000 were into the game to say the least.

Sorry for the long response but it was a great game. Don't be discouraged, your ladies went down with a fight. Hopefully we can have a rematch of the programs in the men's national championship game ;).

Good luck vs Nova.

-Mike

jv001
03-25-2009, 10:54 AM
Good to have your post and you make a point regarding the style of play in the womens bb in the Big Ten. Very physical play with the emphasis on defense. It resembles football which the big ten is good at. The top programs that garner the best recruits are: U-Conn, Tenn, unc, Maryland, Stanford and used to include Duke. The physical style and low scoring turnover prone games do not sit well with the top recruits. Also Coach P has not shown she is able to make necessary adjustments during the games. I'm not calling for her to be fired, but I do wish she would change the style of play and recruit better. Go Duke!

MSUBBall
03-25-2009, 11:06 AM
Good to have your post and you make a point regarding the style of play in the womens bb in the Big Ten. Very physical play with the emphasis on defense. It resembles football which the big ten is good at. The top programs that garner the best recruits are: U-Conn, Tenn, unc, Maryland, Stanford and used to include Duke. The physical style and low scoring turnover prone games do not sit well with the top recruits. Also Coach P has not shown she is able to make necessary adjustments during the games. I'm not calling for her to be fired, but I do wish she would change the style of play and recruit better. Go Duke!

I agree. I also don't put too much emphasis on recruiting statistics either. It appears to be a focus down here though. I think coaches have made it obvious that having the top recruits isn't a requirement to winning, and once established you can continue to win with better talent.

I will relate this to what I know, Tom Izzo. Tom Izzo took the helm at State after Jud's long and good reign at the helm, within 5 years, with fairly low talent up until then, he had a national championship. After some success in the big ten, he got some recruits in the late 90's and went on to win the championship in 2000, and continue his success with many final four appearances and a constant top ten team.

As for recruits... Personally I don't care how many MAA you have. Not to say recruiting isn't important, I think it is more important to recruit the right team then go to the general talent route. For this point look at the pistons... Darko Milicic or however you spell that over Carmelo Anthony, and the team wins the NBA championship and returns to the Eastern Conference finals a bunch. Led by coaching more than pure talent, I think there should more of a focus on equipoise like the Pistons old approach (enter Allen Iverson...).

I think the recruiting comes from the ability to show you are a quality coach. If you have proven yourself at your school, created a good program you can recruit. Coach P hasn't established herself as a successful coach at Duke yet. Once she figures out how to coach in the ACC and does that her recruits will come.

But this goes back to your point, she probably needs to change a few things before having that necessary success.

Duvall
03-25-2009, 11:17 AM
The team had 27 wins, made the final of the ACC tournament, and earned a #1 seed in the NCAA tournament, and people want to fire the woman? I have two words for those who harbor that sort of sense of entitlement: grow up.

I can recall when Duke women's basketball had loftier ambitions. Even so, if there were good reasons to believe that level of success could be maintained, you would see a lot less concern.

No one is getting fired. Duke is not going to buy out the contract of a nonrevenue coach that hasn't broken any rules and graduates her players. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't acknowledge unpleasant truths.


All this hating on Coach P and the team is kind of making me sick.

I haven't seen any hating on the team.

GrayHare
03-25-2009, 11:29 AM
Host Site

Host sites are identified at least a year in advance. The Tournament placement rules then say that if a host team makes the Tournament, they get to stay at home. This year, there were 16 host sites. As a result, there were only 4 teams at each host site, so they all have to be in the same region. Apparently, the S-curve dictated that Duke and MSU were in the same region, so Duke had to play in East Lansing.

Once upon a time, the top 4 seeds in each region hosted the first two rounds. At the time, we weren't regularly one of the top 4 seeds, so we complained bitterly about the advantage that gave to the higher seed.

The MSU Crowd

If we had started strong and maintained a good margin, we would probably have taken the MSU crowd out of the game. Middle Tennessee State did that in the first round game, and the MSU crowd was largely silent until MSU was well-established on their comeback.

As for the capacity of the Breslin Center, the upper balcony was curtained off, so the full capacity wasn't available. The Greensboro Coliseum does the same thing for the ACC womens tournament.

Game Preparation

This could be a key point. MSU had to come from behind in their first round game against MTSU. As a result, they might have been able to polish off the rust and get into rhythm for the second round game. By contrast, we played our starters only briefly against Austin-Peay, gave the freshmen some extended minutes, and seemed to experiment with different line-ups. Perhaps we could have used the Austin-Peay game to better advantage.

blueprofessor
03-25-2009, 11:37 AM
Coach P as you refer to her as, is still young and doesn't have all her recruits. According to my conversations with recent Duke graduates she wasn't Duke's first choice.

My personal experience with this I look at a fairly similar situation with U of M football. Michigan wanted Les Miles and couldn't get him thus settling for Rich Rod (which 100% flipped U of M football from a traditional style to this spread offense crap, good luck trying to recruit people who want to go pro with this spread approach) and just had the worse season of the most winningest program in college football's history.

I know there are high expectations at Duke but I think it is fair to give her more than 2 years. There is more to be said on this subject but I don't have the knowledge to elaborate past my opinion.
Good luck vs Nova.

-Mike

As I suggested earlier, I think another 2 years will tell the tale so that the AD knows what action to take. I urge him to take it at that time.
Coach M has not demonstrated in over 2 years at Duke (2 seasons) that she is flexible in thinking.
Unfortunately, once you lose your flow of top or even very good recruits,as we now indisputably have, you do not merely turn the flow on again years later.
Moreover, as in men's bball, top recruits attract other top recruits.Abby and a few leaders saved the incoming class in 2007 by reselling the program to them after GG left.

When recruiting goes bad, given all the perceptions that arise in the recruit's mind, it gets worse by geometric progression and will not easily , if ever, be returned to prior prominence.Consider FSU and Miami football.

The way to cushion this downturn is to allow a decent period for the coach to prove she can maintain Duke at the 1999-2007 level. If she can't, get a great coach that can recruit, coach, and sustain a style of play that attracts top players.They in turn are a magnet for other bluechippers.
It is not hateful to politely point out the obvious.
I would like to thank the seniors and coaches for their commitment to Duke basketball.:)

Best--Blueprof:)

A-Tex Devil
03-25-2009, 12:30 PM
Hmmmmm........ why hasn't this thread been locked? I'm not saying it should, but it seems that similar men's threads after Belmont and West Virginia last year and even the Clemson/UNC/BC gauntlet this year weren't as critical of coaches, but were locked. Coaches vs. player criticism being the difference, maybe? Not egging anything on, just curious.

My take is give the coach a chance. A legend just left, McCallie brought Michigan State from nowhere and got Duke a 1 seed this year. Duke got a tough draw this year, and honestly wasn't any more disappointing than our men's end of the season last year. Probably less so considering this is the UCONN invitational this year.

sue71, esq
03-25-2009, 12:44 PM
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the Cal-USC game in the Pac-10 tournament. But did anyone see it? I stumbled upon it on FSN during a timeout of the Big East title game, and stuck with it. Cal was down by 2 with 0.3 seconds left. They did what they had to do to tie the game -- a lob, a tip, a score -- but then the officials, influenced by USC's bully of a coach (who needed the win to have any shot at an NCAA bid), spent 15 minutes watching the play over and over before deciding the basket should not count. It was maddening.


At the risk of taking this thread in another direction, I feel I must chime in on this.

The rule in WBB (not sure about MBB) is that if there is .5 or less on the clock, you cannot put 2 hands on the ball. That is considered catch & shoot which (the NCAA has decided) there is not time for (including the officials' reaction time), so a player can only put 1 hand on the ball for a tip in.

As the Cal player had put both hands on the ball, the call had originally & correctly been made as NO BASKET. However, one or both of the other officials couldn't make up his/her mind, and they decided to have an 11+ minute conference about it, which included 4 trips to the monitor. In the end, they again decided NO BASKET, which is what it should have been, BY RULE.

Like the rule or not, love Cal or USC or not, the right call was made. What the officials did in dragging it out for 11+ minutes, however, was ridiculous. And FWIW, I was there.

(Side note: I know in the NBA a player can use 2 hands in this situation, but I'm not sure about NCAA MBB.)

-jk
03-25-2009, 12:49 PM
Hmmmmm........ why hasn't this thread been locked? I'm not saying it should, but it seems that similar men's threads after Belmont and West Virginia last year and even the Clemson/UNC/BC gauntlet this year weren't as critical of coaches, but were locked. Coaches vs. player criticism being the difference, maybe? Not egging anything on, just curious.

My take is give the coach a chance. A legend just left, McCallie brought Michigan State from nowhere and got Duke a 1 seed this year. Duke got a tough draw this year, and honestly wasn't any more disappointing than our men's end of the season last year. Probably less so considering this is the UCONN invitational this year.

The Mods are paying attention to this thread, and so far it has both pushed the envelope and also had some good give and take. And yes, there is a difference in how we treat players and coaches.

Should things get out of hand, we'll take action as necessary. And as always, criticism is fine, just please keep it constructive.

regards,

-jk

Stray Gator
03-25-2009, 01:13 PM
Interesting read:

http://www.freep.com/article/20090325/COL22/903250448/Coach+McCallie+s+new+j

KandG
03-25-2009, 01:49 PM
Our loss was the top story on SportsCenter, and is the front article on ESPN.com and SI.com. That means we are still nationally relevant. The most important thing is that we stay that way.


I wonder if that's going to continue to be the case. I find the team far more unwatchable most of the time I've seen them than I ever did when Coach G was at the helm. As long as results are good, I suppose aesthetics are secondary, but you have to wonder if the noose is going to tighten considerably if the team fails to get out of the first weekend again next year, and doesn't show strides in its recruiting.

I think the coach deserves another couple of years, but there have been red flags around her from the time she was hired, and her ability to dissuade her detractors has been mixed (to be charitable).

Mike Corey
03-25-2009, 02:41 PM
It has been a pleasure to read this thread, and I appreciate the fact that such a conversation has been permitted on this board.

As a fan and an alum, I'm proud that we have such high expectations for the women's program, and we should all be secure in the knowledge that Coach McCallie and Duke are both equally committed to maintaining Duke's lofty and respected place in the world of women's bball.

I unfortunately haven't had the pleasure of getting to know Coach McCallie or her team nearly as well as I would like, but I do know that Coach McCallie has high expectations and her own unique way of striving for them. But when something isn't working, I for one do not think it is inappropriate to raise questions.

Recruiting has fallen off considerably. We are a far cry from landing top-flight individuals, let alone top-flight classes. That cannot continue if Duke is to remain a contender for championships. Coach P loves interacting with recruits, but she doesn't care for the minutiae of the process--the incessant texts, phone calls, and other idiosyncracies of recruiting that so many elite players love. And having an assistant in charge of recruiting would appear to be hurting Duke's ability to reel in big-time talent, as well. Might a change of philosophy and practice make a difference? I think it may be worth considering.

Coach P has brought in very good players thus far, and I've no doubt that they are excellent contributors to Duke. But the lack of star-talent will begin to show, and right soon.

I should note that I think comparisons of Coach P's situation in recruiting to those of Coach K's at the inception of his Duke career are wholly unfair. Coach K did not inherit a basketball behemoth. Coach P did. For it to fall off--and it has--so quickly is worthy of thoughtful questioning.

Consider that Duke had advanced to 7 Elite Eights in 9 years, had won 30 games in 7 straight seasons, and had not finished any worse than second in the conference in a decade. Yes, Duke has continued to do well under Coach P, but the distinction is clear enough to raise eyebrows. Certainly, this may all be a part of the transition to Coach P's preferred style of play. I certainly hope it is, and that as our players become more acclimated to it, so too does Duke's success.

Of course, Coach K's program had similar difficulties after its unprecedented run of excellence from 1986-1994. And it is absolutely possible that the women's program's well was bound to run dry regardless of whether or not Coach G or Coach P or Coach K was at the helm.

Coach McCallie is a great talent in her own right, and will have a long and successful career. I hope that happens for her at Duke, for decades to come. I know she has the desire and the ability as a coach and as a person. I know her players wanted to win as badly as ever this season. But it's a matter of channeling all that into successful practice that counts.

That's yet to happen, though I believe firmly it will. In the meantime, as Nolan Smith's dad might have said, let's get to work.

bird
03-25-2009, 02:47 PM
My comments:

1. Coach G was not perfect.

2. I am satisfied with the effort and defense of Duke.

3. Long offensive droughts were a characteristic of this year's team.

4. Missing many inside shots, whether hacked or not, was a characteristic of this year's team.

5. Overall, and this includes virtually every women's team I have seen this year at the elite levels, I have not enjoyed watching women's basketball as much as in the past. I am not sure why. Maybe it is the low-point at TN; maybe it is the lack of strong player personalities (Taurasi/Beard years had to be a high moment, in retrospect). Maybe it is the style of play. I have always thought that the women's game should be a passing/shooting style, the stuff that Alana and Taursi excelled at. I see more of the driving/banging style.

5. I'm going to miss Abby. I look forward to watching more of Jasmine.

miramar
03-25-2009, 02:47 PM
Interesting read:

http://www.freep.com/article/20090325/COL22/903250448/Coach+McCallie+s+new+j

Well, the Big 10 is a pretty tough conference and I guess that's reflected in the press coverage. Not to mention that they printed the least flattering photo they could possibly find.

If you do the math about Izzo's comments that McCallie wasn't happy her last two years at Michigan State, then that would mean that she likely decided to look for another position after the 2005 season, when they played in the national championship game and she was named coach of the year. If it was as obvious as the article makes it out to be, then I guess it's only natural that they would feel spurned and that they would take a real delight in what they see as McCallie's comeuppance.

blueprofessor
03-25-2009, 02:52 PM
Interesting read:

http://www.freep.com/article/20090325/COL22/903250448/Coach+McCallie+s+new+j

Indeed...
Stars Mia Johnson, Lauren Aitch and Lykendra Johnson deserve most of the credit for that. But Merchant badly outcoached McCallie. Even as MSU built a 25-20 halftime lead, it was obvious that Duke had superior talent. Merchant had her team more focused. In the final minutes, it was the Spartans who kept their composure while the mighty Blue Devils folded.

This looked like a gross mismatch on paper, and not just because Duke was a No. 1 seed and MSU was a No. 9. The Spartans don't have a natural point guard and the Blue Devils love to press.

It seemed set up for a triumphant return for McCallie -- and since McCallie is still a leading cause of raised eyebrows in East Lansing, people wondered if she set this up. Was it a coincidence that the chair of the selection committee is Duke associate athletic director Jacki Silar?

McCallie should have pressed the whole game. She didn't. Merchant adjusted her zone defense to improve MSU's rebounding.

In a luxury box, Izzo sat next to football coach Mark Dantonio and cheered on the team.

"I'm really happy for Suzy," Izzo said. "This is her dream job. That's kind of what you want out of people, to find somebody who dreams of being in a place."

Merchant's heart is in East Lansing, and her team is in the Sweet 16. She can coach with anybody. Ask Coach P.

Best--Blueprof :)

MHTorringjan
03-25-2009, 04:02 PM
Uh, you mean those same recruits that were 21-10, lost in the first round of the Big Ten tourney to a seven seed, and won their opening round game by one point against Middle Tennessee State? Michigan State is a good team, but they are a nine seed for a reason. Duke had seven MacDonald All-Americans. How many does Michigan State have? The answer is zero. We lost to a less talented team. The loss was due in part to the venue, but that was not the main factor. A one seed should be able to win on a nine seed's home court.

I'd like to say that my perception of the main reason that we lost was poor shooting and poor shot selection (at least, from what I saw; I wasn't able to watch the whole game). Nerves, venue, crowd, and the players wanting it may all have also played a part in the loss. Shot selection can be coached, but in-game, the coach does not have direct control over the actions or minds of the players. So, while the coach may be responsible for some aspects of the game (game-plan, defensive assignments, etc.) there are some aspects that the coach has no control over. Frankly, I'd say that blaming the game on the coach, as so many of the people commenting on this thread have been quick to do, is unfair. It's a team effort, winning or losing.

MHTorringjan
03-25-2009, 04:36 PM
Over the course of the season, we have had high points, as well as low points. I hate to see when one of the low points ended up being the last game of the year, but what can you say... When you have an off night against someone who's playing well, these things happen. I'd like to try to compare it to Kansas on the men's side losing to Bucknell in the first round and then winning a national championship, but I can't yet make that comparison.

I feel that people making comments like "this is going to be the end of Duke Basketball" are reacting hastily. Every program has blips during the season, and only one wins it all at the end. Perhaps we could have heard from these people saying "this is going to be a watershed moment in Duke Basketball history!" when we beat Carolina on Senior night or when we beat Maryland on our home floor or when we took down Stanford earlier in the season, as those were strong wins against power-house programs. Admittedly, it might make some difference that the loss came in the tourney to the big underdog, but hopefully recruits would be able to look at the total picture of the program and realize that one loss does not a program make.

I agree with many of the posters here that the recruiting scene is somewhat bare, but we don't have any idea how the recruits for next year are going to react and we don't know how really good (or not) the freshmen we're getting next year are going to be. I can't say that I'm doubtless that Tayler Hill's decision won't be affected by this single game, but I can hope that she'd look at the entire set of factors (coach's attitude, coach's style, team-mates, education value, prestige of program, etc.) and decide that even though we didn't live up to post-season expectations, we're still her team. As for next year, there are a number of players who are still considering us and who haven't committed, so we can't really say how that looks yet. Am I a little worried? Sure, but fans usually do worry when they don't get a Top 10 class.

I personally look at this season and while I admit that it was disappointing in many respects, I'm still proud of the girls and cautiously optimistic about next year. 27 wins and single digit losses on a season is not something to sneeze at, and it's better than we did last year thanks to our girls. Next year will be different without Chante, but I feel like we've seen some good things out of Krystal this year and she's got plenty of time to develop.

We have a strong core of players returning, and we have strong freshmen who have spent the year improving. I will be interested to see how Coach P adjusts her style to the change in personnel, hopefully realizing that we have less bulk inside to look to and that we need to work a little variety into the offensive schemes, seeing as how "get the ball to Krystal" probably won't work as well as "get the ball to Chante."

There are concerns that still need to be addressed from this year, and they're the same concerns that I had watching the games throughout the year. Turnovers and poor shot selection are the biggest issues, both offensive issues. The defense is amazing, don't change a thing, but we need a more effective offense and we need more variety in the offensive game plan. I think that if Coach P doesn't mix things up and soon then things will definitely get rough, and if that happens, then we need to figure out where to go from there, but not before. It really sounds to me like many Duke fans are becoming something akin to NC State fans moaning about Herb Sendek and how he wasn't good enough for their liking.

The point I'm trying to make is that there has been good and there has been bad. People who are coming out of the wood-work who were absent when we won the big games need to step back, take a breath, and enjoy the basketball, not the trophy. The trophy is an amazing achievement and it is the pinnacle of the sport, but it is not the only thing. Be proud of the girls and be proud of what they've done for this university. I'm proud of undefeated at home, finals of the ACC tourney and a loss in overtime against a higher-ranked Twerp team, beating UNC on senior night, single-digit ranking for most of the season, and 25+ wins on the year. Admittedly, I'm not so proud of last night, but I am still proud of the team overall, since one game does not define the character, the ability, and the passion of these girls.

Anyway, that's my rant for the season. See you all again when Tayler Hill decides where she's going (if anywhere).

MHTorringjan
03-25-2009, 05:07 PM
I can recall when Duke women's basketball had loftier ambitions. Even so, if there were good reasons to believe that level of success could be maintained, you would see a lot less concern.

Look, we had loftier ambitions because we had Lindsey Harding, Allison Bales, Monique Currie, and Alanna Beard. I think that it's difficult to win a championship if we don't have NPOY candidates, which we haven't had for two years now. Unfortunately, Goestenkors didn't bring in any NPOY candidates her last year (except possibly Jasmine if she keeps developing), and Coach P has had one year to recruit them. Do we need better recruits? Probably, but teamwork is just as important as raw talent.

I'd say that there's reason to be cautiously optimistic, like I say in my crazy-stupid-long post, since the players have exhibited an intense will to win and have developed, and we got more wins and fewer losses this year than we did last year. Admittedly, there's a question mark about the post position, but hopefully, we'll find a way to adjust to that. This will be the true judge of quality of the coach, I think.

CameronBornAndBred
03-25-2009, 06:26 PM
People who are coming out of the wood-work who were absent when we won the big games need to step back, take a breath, and enjoy the basketball, not the trophy.
Thank you very much for a long thoughtful post. Great comments throughout. Ultimately we may be proven wrong in our opinions, but never in our support. Just like Duke football, I will stick with the women's basketball team. I've been watching and listening since before Gail's time and appreciate what she did, and I appreciate what P has done. And all along I've had frustration and joy, and expect to continue to have both. GO DUKE!