JWill on the Herd

[bbar7502]

Just heard Jason Williams on the Herd radio show. Cowherd asked him about Duke being primarily a perimeter team and why doesn't Duke attract more big men. Jason said that Duke has always been more of a guard oriented team with the exception of some notable big men like Boozer when they won the championship in '01. The interesting thing that he said was that he had talked to Greg Monroe which Duke missed out on, and Monore basically said that he loved Duke but the one negative was that Wojo was the big man coach and he didn't see how he could learn from him since he was a guard all his life. He was also talking about how he was questioning if he should go to the game Thursday since the two tournament games he went to (VCU, West Virginia) were both losses. I thought the Monroe comment was interesting, since it has been discussed on here before. Any thoughts? Also stay home on thursday Jason! GO DUKE

[Oriole Way]

I was going to make a post about JWill's comments about Monroe and Wojo.

I have always thought Wojo hasn't really fit as a big man coach. Aside from the fact he has no experience - and yes, I know that we have had prior big men coaches who were also guards - I think having a recruit like Monroe spurn us because of Wojo makes having Wojo as big man coach a liability. I wouldn't be surprised if other big men Duke has lost out on also took that into consideration.

I think it would be better to make Nate James the big man coach. I don't see what makes him any less qualified than Wojo. He actually played in the post a little, so he has more experience actually playing in the post. He also embraces the role of teacher/mentor, as he seems to have done a fine job taking Elliot Williams under his wing.

I think if we had a more qualified big man coach, Brian Zoubek and Lance Thomas would be better than they are now. That is obviously just speculation on my part, but I have very little confidence in Wojo. Our few successful big men, like Boozer and Shelden Williams, would have been great with or without him.

[Rudy]

I think if we had a more qualified big man coach, Brian Zoubek and Lance Thomas would be better than they are now. That is obviously just speculation on my part, but I have very little confidence in Wojo. Our few successful big men, like Boozer and Shelden Williams, would have been great with or without him.

Sorry, but that makes no sense to me. One could just as easily say Z and LT haven't progressed as much as you like simply because that's the level their talent takes them. Either Wojo is effective or he's not as a teacher.

The Monroe problem is a perception problem of h.s. big men recruits. It has nothing to do with Wojo's talents as a teacher but it apparently is real and may be good enough reason to shuffle assignments among the assistants (in the off-season).

[BlueintheFace]

here we go again... can't we just shut this ride down until after the season. (sigh.... shaking head back and forth)

[pfrduke]

Just out of curiosity, how many schools have dedicated big man's coaches, and how many of them are actually former post players?

[SMO]

here we go again... can't we just shut this ride down until after the season. (sigh.... shaking head back and forth)

I think the real problem is Wojo is coaching too many minutes;)

[KenTankerous]

So when was the poll here on DBR that elected Wojo to be the big man coach?

Or was he given the job by someone that learned basketball at the feet of a master, been coaching at an elite level for decades, has three national championships and an Olympic championship under his belt?

hmmm....

[Exiled_Devil]

So when was the poll here on DBR that elected Wojo to be the big man coach?

Or was he given the job by someone that learned basketball at the feet of a master, been coaching at an elite level for decades, has three national championships and an Olympic championship under his belt?

hmmm....

I typically stay out of the Wojo bigman arguments, but I have to point out that the validity of your argument here (a classic, by the way) is undermined by a recruit stating that his lack of trust in Wojo's ability to develop him was a determining factor in not coming to Duke.

Sure, Coach K appointed Wojo to the job. But if Monroe's comment is reflective of a more widespread concern among recruits, than this is a new piece of data in the argument that should get considered by the powers-that-be. (By which, of course, I mean posters on teh internets.)

[NSDukeFan]

I think the real problem is Wojo is coaching too many minutes;)

Great line.
And coach K should only coach point guards because that's what he played? I don't believe he was ever a 6'6" unbelievable athlete, but still managed to coach Kobe ok in the olympics. You don't have to have even played basketball to be a great coach. It may be an impression of a high school kid, but doesn't have a basis in reality.

[Stray Gator]

If Monroe was just stating his personal impression, then I would discount it accordingly. If he was stating an opinion based on discussions with former Duke players who were actually coached by Wojo--which I seriously doubt--then I might be more inclined to find it a cause for concern.

[dball]

Just out of curiosity, how many schools have dedicated big man's coaches, and how many of them are actually former post players?

Georgetown assistants Kenya Hunter and David Cox were both point guards. I suppose Thompson III may be coaching the big men but he's only 6'4'' though he did play forward in college.

I suspect Georgetown having recently visited the Final Four and history of talented big men had more influence on Monroe's decision than Wojo.

Also, as has been mentioned many times previously, Pete Newell is generally recognized as the best big man coach of all time and he was short. If I'm not mistaken, Wojo attended his camp a time or two since Newell was highly regarded by both Coach Knight and Coach K.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

I've rejected this argument as ludicrous for years, but if Monroe's perception is common, or even shared by a sizable minority of HS players and coaches, then it's a major problem. No two ways around that. It would certainly answer the question we've all had for 5-6 seasons: why one of the premiere programs in the nation can't land a top-tier 5 despite there being huge minutes available and no legit competition at that spot.

I'm certain Wojo is a great coach and we all saw that Shel made tremendous strides in his time here. Z has had injuries and Lance is playing out of position, so I still think there's a strong case that Wojo can do the job. But if that perception exists (no matter what the reality is) then it needs to be addressed. Whether we do that by shuffling assignments, by launching a PR campaign for Wojo, or whatever we need to do something before we lose yet another class (2003-09 and counting).

[Boston Dukie]

I am sure I have posted on this before many times

It doesn't matter if wojo is the best or worst big man coach in the world, perception is what matters

It is a huge perception hill to climb to start with Wojo as the big man coach:

- He was a PG
- He is tiny
- He is white and urban
- He is hated by everyone who is not a Duke fan. Btw, this I think is the biggest strike against him. He is commonly in a very negative light

People like to spend time with people who are like them. Wojo is not like any of the big men

Some may dismiss this and say "well its just Greg Monroe, we don't know how other big men feel/felt". Well the answer to that is it only takes one. Add Greg Monroe to this team, and it is a real contender, not just scrapping to make the sweet 16. Plus we know that Patrick Patterson said some remarks that could also be interpreted as a lack of comfort with wojo.

Anyway, why not get a big man to coach the big men?

Bottom line. Duke has no quality big men, and has suffered as a result

[_Gary]

I completely agree with that last two posters. Look, I love Wojo personally and he may be a fantastic big man coach, but the fact is that in this world perception is reality! And *if* Monroe's attitude reflects that of other big men around the country the program should at least seriously consider switching some things up. The facts are that we have failed to land several big men in the last 6 or so recruiting classes. And as others have said, this wasn't due to a logjam at the 5. In fact, just the opposite was true. Guys like Monroe and Patterson could have come in and basically had the position all to themselves. That's a pretty large and important factor to just blow off.

Gary

[jma4life]

Coach K has never struck me as the kind of guy who is going to base his personnel moves on appeasing or trying to appeal to high school kids. I suppose if Wojo could be promoted (though isn't he co associate head coach now and still big man coach?) it could happen but K isn't going to strip Wojo of that role if he thinks Wojo is doing a good job just because some high school kids don't think WOjo is cool enough. That's not how they do it at West Point, for better or worse.

[jv001]

I have my own opinion on the Wojo/Big man coach, but I'm going to hold my comments until after the NCAAs are over. Not that anyone cares what my opinion is anyway. I say let's enjoy this year and hope it continues for 4 more games. Go Duke!

[The Gordog]

Just heard Jason Williams on the Herd radio show. Cowherd asked him about Duke being primarily a perimeter team and why doesn't Duke attract more big men. Jason said that Duke has always been more of a guard oriented team with the exception of some notable big men like Boozer when they won the championship in '01. The interesting thing that he said was that he had talked to Greg Monroe which Duke missed out on, and Monore basically said that he loved Duke but the one negative was that Wojo was the big man coach and he didn't see how he could learn from him since he was a guard all his life. He was also talking about how he was questioning if he should go to the game Thursday since the two tournament games he went to (VCU, West Virginia) were both losses. I thought the Monroe comment was interesting, since it has been discussed on here before. Any thoughts? Also stay home on thursday Jason! GO DUKE


I was going to make a post about JWill's comments about Monroe and Wojo.

I have always thought Wojo hasn't really fit as a big man coach. Aside from the fact he has no experience - and yes, I know that we have had prior big men coaches who were also guards - I think having a recruit like Monroe spurn us because of Wojo makes having Wojo as big man coach a liability. I wouldn't be surprised if other big men Duke has lost out on also took that into consideration.

I think it would be better to make Nate James the big man coach. I don't see what makes him any less qualified than Wojo. He actually played in the post a little, so he has more experience actually playing in the post. He also embraces the role of teacher/mentor, as he seems to have done a fine job taking Elliot Williams under his wing.

I think if we had a more qualified big man coach, Brian Zoubek and Lance Thomas would be better than they are now. That is obviously just speculation on my part, but I have very little confidence in Wojo. Our few successful big men, like Boozer and Shelden Williams, would have been great with or without him.


I typically stay out of the Wojo bigman arguments, but I have to point out that the validity of your argument here (a classic, by the way) is undermined by a recruit stating that his lack of trust in Wojo's ability to develop him was a determining factor in not coming to Duke.

Sure, Coach K appointed Wojo to the job. But if Monroe's comment is reflective of a more widespread concern among recruits, than this is a new piece of data in the argument that should get considered by the powers-that-be. (By which, of course, I mean posters on teh internets.)


I've rejected this argument as ludicrous for years, but if Monroe's perception is common, or even shared by a sizable minority of HS players and coaches, then it's a major problem. No two ways around that. It would certainly answer the question we've all had for 5-6 seasons: why one of the premiere programs in the nation can't land a top-tier 5 despite there being huge minutes available and no legit competition at that spot.

I'm certain Wojo is a great coach and we all saw that Shel made tremendous strides in his time here. Z has had injuries and Lance is playing out of position, so I still think there's a strong case that Wojo can do the job. But if that perception exists (no matter what the reality is) then it needs to be addressed. Whether we do that by shuffling assignments, by launching a PR campaign for Wojo, or whatever we need to do something before we lose yet another class (2003-09 and counting).


I am sure I have posted on this before many times

It doesn't matter if wojo is the best or worst big man coach in the world, perception is what matters

It is a huge perception hill to climb to start with Wojo as the big man coach:

- He was a PG
- He is tiny
- He is white and urban
- He is hated by everyone who is not a Duke fan. Btw, this I think is the biggest strike against him. He is commonly in a very negative light

People like to spend time with people who are like them. Wojo is not like any of the big men

Some may dismiss this and say "well its just Greg Monroe, we don't know how other big men feel/felt". Well the answer to that is it only takes one. Add Greg Monroe to this team, and it is a real contender, not just scrapping to make the sweet 16. Plus we know that Patrick Patterson said some remarks that could also be interpreted as a lack of comfort with wojo.

Anyway, why not get a big man to coach the big men?

Bottom line. Duke has no quality big men, and has suffered as a result


I completely agree with that last two posters. Look, I love Wojo personally and he may be a fantastic big man coach, but the fact is that in this world perception is reality! And *if* Monroe's attitude reflects that of other big men around the country the program should at least seriously consider switching some things up. The facts are that we have failed to land several big men in the last 6 or so recruiting classes. And as others have said, this wasn't due to a logjam at the 5. In fact, just the opposite was true. Guys like Monroe and Patterson could have come in and basically had the position all to themselves. That's a pretty large and important factor to just blow off.

Gary

I would ask all of you how has that worked out for the esteemed Mr. Monroe, hmmm? It seems to me that Monroe has no integrity. He cancelled his visit at the last moment and made an impulsive decision.

Lot's of teams do not have quality big men. In 1983-'86 we had Jay Bilas for cryin' out loud - we did pretty well in '86 and I think Zoubek is at least as good as Jay was.

We landed the #1 big man in the HS class of '05. For better or for worse, the whole world was wrong about Josh.

[NSDukeFan]

I am sure I have posted on this before many times

It doesn't matter if wojo is the best or worst big man coach in the world, perception is what matters

It is a huge perception hill to climb to start with Wojo as the big man coach:

- He was a PG
- He is tiny
- He is white and urban
- He is hated by everyone who is not a Duke fan. Btw, this I think is the biggest strike against him. He is commonly in a very negative light

People like to spend time with people who are like them. Wojo is not like any of the big men

Some may dismiss this and say "well its just Greg Monroe, we don't know how other big men feel/felt". Well the answer to that is it only takes one. Add Greg Monroe to this team, and it is a real contender, not just scrapping to make the sweet 16. Plus we know that Patrick Patterson said some remarks that could also be interpreted as a lack of comfort with wojo.

Anyway, why not get a big man to coach the big men?

Bottom line. Duke has no quality big men, and has suffered as a result

I will take this ACC championship and going to the sweet sixteen on a role suffering for hopefully four more games this year.
It doesn't seem to me that Duke would be the type of program that would move a coach (I don't know if Wojo is good as a big man coach or not) based on perception rather than on whether he is good at what he does.

[FerryFor50]

I will take this ACC championship and going to the sweet sixteen on a role suffering for hopefully four more games this year.
It doesn't seem to me that Duke would be the type of program that would move a coach (I don't know if Wojo is good as a big man coach or not) based on perception rather than on whether he is good at what he does.

Would you still be as satisfied with this season's results had Pittman not gotten into foul trouble and led Texas over us?

[UrinalCake]

Just to add more speculation to the fire, my opinion is that Duke's style of offense would be what turns away a recruit who plays a traditional center position. Duke has run its motion offense for as long as Coach K has been around, and it relies more on mobile, versatile big men (who are really power forwards) than a traditional post. The epitome of this was Laettner. The more recent examples of Duke's successful centers - Boozer, Brand, Williams - were all really power forwards playing center in college. And even with those guys our offense did not revolve around dumping it into them. We did at times, but it wasn't the basis of our offense.

So for a guy like Greg Monroe, it wouldn't really suit his talents to come into this type of offensive system.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Perception is reality. If my son was 6' 11" I would have hard time thinking that Wojo was the right coach for him. Of course, I really don't know which schools have a guy who is the right coach for him.

I think that all great coaches are somewhat stubborn. The reality is that Coach K thinks that Wojo does the job. I think he will only change the job is something better opens up for Wojo, either at Duke or a HC job elsewhere.

SoCal

[DUKIE V(A)]

Would it be great to get a superstar bigman? Of course! But let's support who we got...coaches and players. They all WANT to be at Duke and are doing an outstanding job. Also, last I checked, we ARE a contender -- along with fifteen other talented and fortunate teams.

[arnie]

Perception is reality. If my son was 6' 11" I would have hard time thinking that Wojo was the right coach for him. Of course, I really don't know which schools have a guy who is the right coach for him.

I think that all great coaches are somewhat stubborn. The reality is that Coach K thinks that Wojo does the job. I think he will only change the job is something better opens up for Wojo, either at Duke or a HC job elsewhere.

SoCal

Fair conclusion. I've heard several times that P. Patterson just didn't "feel it" when he visited Duke. Any idea what that may have meant?

[killerleft]

Would you still be as satisfied with this season's results had Pittman not gotten into foul trouble and led Texas over us?

Pittman doesn't play many more minutes than he did against us. Weighs too much and finds all that running to be very taxing.

[NSDukeFan]

Would you still be as satisfied with this season's results had Pittman not gotten into foul trouble and led Texas over us?

You're right in that a few plays here and there can make a huge difference in how satisfied I am feeling. But we did make them and I actually felt pretty good when Z was in guarding Pittman. I was afraid when Pittman was being guarded by Lance or Kyle because of the size difference. I should have more confidence in them, though as we have done a good job against big teams all year.
I agree I would prefer to have a nice inside presence, but it's nice having our lineup now where we can switch all screens and have five good defensive players as well.

[FerryFor50]

Just to add more speculation to the fire, my opinion is that Duke's style of offense would be what turns away a recruit who plays a traditional center position. Duke has run its motion offense for as long as Coach K has been around, and it relies more on mobile, versatile big men (who are really power forwards) than a traditional post. The epitome of this was Laettner. The more recent examples of Duke's successful centers - Boozer, Brand, Williams - were all really power forwards playing center in college. And even with those guys our offense did not revolve around dumping it into them. We did at times, but it wasn't the basis of our offense.

So for a guy like Greg Monroe, it wouldn't really suit his talents to come into this type of offensive system.

I disagree. Monroe is more than a back to the basket post player. He's very mobile and could have developed a nice mid-range game, kind of like Brand and Boozer did.

[KandG]

Yikes, the Big Man Coach controversy rears its ugly head once more.

I'm curious to know how widespread Monroe's perception is. It's entirely possible that he made a very impulsive decision and used a talking point from a rival school's recruiting staff as his excuse. With that said, Jason did choose to repeat it on air, so perhaps it's worth opening this discussion again (after the season, of course).

FWIW, I've never thought much about the need for a "better" Big Man Coach, but like kudzu, this hot button doesn't want to go away. I would love to hear Coach K's take on this perception.

[FerryFor50]

You're right in that a few plays here and there can make a huge difference in how satisfied I am feeling. But we did make them and I actually felt pretty good when Z was in guarding Pittman. I was afraid when Pittman was being guarded by Lance or Kyle because of the size difference. I should have more confidence in them, though as we have done a good job against big teams all year.
I agree I would prefer to have a nice inside presence, but it's nice having our lineup now where we can switch all screens and have five good defensive players as well.

I thought Z did a passable job on Pittman - was very proud of the effort. But the fact remains that he ended up with 4 fouls and LT fouled out. It's also a fact that, when Pittman wanted, he was able to physically move Z without much effort, and Z isn't a light guy.

If/when Duke plays Pitt, I dread facing Blair and can only hope he gets into foul trouble. The last time he faced a 7 footer without much mobility... well... let's just say he made Thabeet his prison roommate.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

I think the suggestion to get back to this after the season ends (hopefully in several weeks) is a very good one, so I want to clarify one thing and then I'll leave this alone.

I think Wojo is a great coach, and I think anyone who is paying attention should as well. He's had fairly poor material to work with lately, so his results don't look great, but everything I've seen and read suggests that he a good coach doing a good job. I don't think his height, his race, his "coolness", or his college position has any significant bearing on his ability to teach Duke's system to our players, including our big guys.

Duke has several issues with perception right now. We're seen as elitist, as unfriendly to poorer, African-American players, and as a place where big men won't get as much attention as they deserve in the offense. Having followed Duke for several decades, I think that all of these perceptions are deeply flawed and most are simply wrong. Nonetheless, they exist among the overwhelming majority of fanbases and, I'm afraid, far too many young players. We won't fix this by punishing or minimizing very good people (like Wojo). But we also won't fix it by pretending that these perceptions aren't out there, or ignoring them and hoping they go away.

Anyway, I've said way too much about this already and I really do want to focus on the amazing run this team is on. I'm so excited about cheering for this great bunch of players and our outstanding staff as we go forward, no matter how far we go. Let's go Duke!

[FerryFor50]

Yikes, the Big Man Coach controversy rears its ugly head once more.

I'm curious to know how widespread Monroe's perception is. It's entirely possible that he made a very impulsive decision and used a talking point from a rival school's recruiting staff as his excuse. With that said, Jason did choose to repeat it on air, so perhaps it's worth opening this discussion again (after the season, of course).

FWIW, I've never thought much about the need for a "better" Big Man Coach, but like kudzu, this hot button doesn't want to go away. I would love to hear Coach K's take on this perception.

Hell, why not a figurehead big man coach? Let Wojo keep working with them, but at least have a true pivot there for perception value. How do you think Pat Ewing has a job? :D

[weezie]

If Monroe was just stating his personal impression, then I would discount it accordingly.

And one might conclude that G. Monroe did not make the correct decision. Wasn't such a great ride for him this year, even with all his deliberations.

[SMO]

- He was a PG
- He is tiny
- He is white and urban
- He is hated by everyone who is not a Duke fan.

At least 3 out of the 4 can be applied to Coach K and he's done alright.

[SMO]

Would you still be as satisfied with this season's results had Pittman not gotten into foul trouble and led Texas over us?

What if Duke hadn't won 30 games?
What if they hadn't won an ACC title?
What if Wojo stormed onto the court and grabbed Alabi by the ankle and was dragged around the court like Jeff Van Gundy after Alabi's technical in Cameron?

Thankfully, we'll never know, but it's so fun to speculate!

[Boston Dukie]

Some very good points here

A few other thoughts:

1) I hope Duke wins it all this year, but I am not holding my breath

2) Monroe made a terrible decision. He fits Duke perfectly. So the point is don't give other coaches the ability to use the "wojo will be your coach" line as a recruting tactic against Duke. True or not, it is working

3) Yes, Duke is in the sweet 16, and beat Texas (barely), but that is not the point. The point is that Duke has had among the best (the best this year?) 1through 4 in the country (counting Lance as a back-up 4 to Singler) and barely slid by (and very tough losses the last 2 years). So add in a Patterson or a Monroe, and then where would Duke be? They would be great. The opportunity cost of having no big man is enormous. Its really selling short all the other guys on the team

4) Nova is not a team with a great big man. Cunningham is very good, but not huge and hopefully Singler and Lance can slow him down (Zoubek won't play in this game). Nova is a good match up for Duke in this respect. Let's hope Pitt loses and see what happens. I am going to the Nova game, and would love a win

[SMO]

Georgetown assistants Kenya Hunter and David Cox were both point guards. I suppose Thompson III may be coaching the big men but he's only 6'4'' though he did play forward in college.

I suspect Georgetown having recently visited the Final Four and history of talented big men had more influence on Monroe's decision than Wojo.

Also, as has been mentioned many times previously, Pete Newell is generally recognized as the best big man coach of all time and he was short. If I'm not mistaken, Wojo attended his camp a time or two since Newell was highly regarded by both Coach Knight and Coach K.

This is the best explanation of why Monroe's rationale doesn't make a lot of sense. I wonder if Monroe didn't make the decision for a variety of reasons and is oversimplifying his decision in retrospect? It wasn't that long ago that Shelden Williams became the all-time rebounds and blocked shots leader at Duke under basically the same coaching staff as what is currently there.

[Duvall]

At least 3 out of the 4 can be applied to Coach K and he's done alright.

Which one wouldn't apply? Chicago is certainly more urban than Severna Park, and I'm sure most of us look tiny to the Greg Monroe-sized.

[SMO]

Which one wouldn't apply? Chicago is certainly more urban than Severna Park, and I'm sure most of us look tiny to the Greg Monroe-sized.

Coach has put on some pounds since his playing days:) but is certainly still tiny by big man standards. So there you are, 4 for 4. We need a bigger, hard-core, loved-by-the-masses coach and then we'll be set.

[dukemsu]

Ah, back to one of the old standards.

I would challenge Cowherd and any other clown who only watches hoop when they need something to gamble on in football's off-season to look around the country for great "big men". How many are there, in terms of back to the basket 7 foot types?

Almost none. I'll give you Thabeet and Aldrich. Earl Cook is a nice player, but he is certainly not a world-beater. Hans, well, we all know that story (and isn't it interesting that he was on the bench for most of the UNC run on Saturday?). And Hans is 6'8". I'm waiting. Hmmm. There just aren't many big men who fit that profile anymore. Blair might be 6'8". Talented bigs (like Monroe, I'm personally not that sold on Patterson) are few and far between, and yes, they aren't picking Duke for whatever reason. I think the reason may be that Duke is not likely to tailor its entire system to one guy who will be on campus one year. Just my opinion.

Duke does seem to lack the guys around 6'8" who are up there in weight class (I would say strong, but Kyle has answered all the strength questions. He looks skinny sometimes, but he's a strong dude). I would personally love to see another McLeod type of guy. It'd be great to have someone of his size and build in the paint.

But the notion that there are scores of 7 footers wandering the gyms of America is ludicrous. There just aren't many of these guys. Duke hasn't gotten one of them, but almost no one else has, either.

Cowherd should go back to analyzing the fourth round of the upcoming NFL Draft.

dukemsu.

[blueprofessor]

Duke does seem to lack the guys around 6'8" who are up there in weight class (I would say strong, but Kyle has answered all the strength questions. He looks skinny sometimes, but he's a strong dude). I would personally love to see another McLeod type of guy. It'd be great to have someone of his size and build in the paint.



...a 1st team all-ACC and 3rd team AA as a senior. He was picked in the 1st round of the 1998 NBA draft.
I,too, would love to have him back because he was a nightmare for matchups---he was a tremendous shooter and could score inside and outside.
Unfortunately, compared to Blair at 6-7 1/2 and 265 pounds, Roshown ,at 6-8 and 220 pounds(small forward in the NBA), would look lean.

Best--Blueprof:)

[gofurman]

I typically stay out of the Wojo bigman arguments, but I have to point out that the validity of your argument here (a classic, by the way) is undermined by a recruit stating that his lack of trust in Wojo's ability to develop him was a determining factor in not coming to Duke.

Sure, Coach K appointed Wojo to the job. But if Monroe's comment is reflective of a more widespread concern among recruits, than this is a new piece of data in the argument that should get considered by the powers-that-be. (By which, of course, I mean posters on teh internets.)

exactly - in recruiting as in much else: perception is reality.

If Monroe and others perceive that Duke has no real big man coach and outright state that hindered their desire to attend Duke then Duke has a problem... whether or not K or anyone else agrees is pointless. If recruits are spurning Duke for perception then THAT IS THE REALITY and needs to be addressed. Now, if K has talked to the recruits that went elsewhere and this is the ONE exception...fine. But if this has occurred multiple times it needs to be addressed

[The1Bluedevil]

I know being in Kansas and having to follow their recruiting to talk basketball that having Danny Manning as their post coach is a huge recruiting bonus.

[Johnboy]

From here: http://www.accsports.com/articles/200903235027/duke-insider-juniors-living-duke-success.php


But Zoubek has proven to be invaluable when matched against punishing big men. He came off the bench in the ACC title game to defend Florida State’s Solomon Alabi after the 7-1 freshman scored two quick baskets against undersized center Lance Thomas. Zoubek blocked Alabi’s first shot, altered his second and turned the talented FSU big man into a non-factor the rest of the game. He did the same thing against 6-11, 298-pound Texas center Dexter Pittman, who abused the Devils early, then got nothing against Zoubek.

So, Zoubek has a breakout senior season. Does perception change?

Monroe's comments sound like they came directly from conversation with a rival school's coach/assistant. Like when Kenny Anderson said "I don't want to be just another horse in Dean Smith's stable."

[Oriole Way]

Ah, back to one of the old standards.

I would challenge Cowherd and any other clown who only watches hoop when they need something to gamble on in football's off-season to look around the country for great "big men". How many are there, in terms of back to the basket 7 foot types?

Almost none. I'll give you Thabeet and Aldrich. Earl Cook is a nice player, but he is certainly not a world-beater. Hans, well, we all know that story (and isn't it interesting that he was on the bench for most of the UNC run on Saturday?). And Hans is 6'8". I'm waiting. Hmmm. There just aren't many big men who fit that profile anymore. Blair might be 6'8". Talented bigs (like Monroe, I'm personally not that sold on Patterson) are few and far between, and yes, they aren't picking Duke for whatever reason. I think the reason may be that Duke is not likely to tailor its entire system to one guy who will be on campus one year. Just my opinion.

Duke does seem to lack the guys around 6'8" who are up there in weight class (I would say strong, but Kyle has answered all the strength questions. He looks skinny sometimes, but he's a strong dude). I would personally love to see another McLeod type of guy. It'd be great to have someone of his size and build in the paint.

But the notion that there are scores of 7 footers wandering the gyms of America is ludicrous. There just aren't many of these guys. Duke hasn't gotten one of them, but almost no one else has, either.

Cowherd should go back to analyzing the fourth round of the upcoming NFL Draft.

dukemsu.

Who said that the big men we want need to be 7 footers? Most of us who clamor for a big man understand that a college big man is, for the most part, only about 6'8-6'10 and plays primarily in the post. Especially Duke fans, who consider some of our our best modern (post 90's) teams those that feature a power forward playing as a center, or as the primary post option: Laettner, Brand, Boozer, Williams.

I honestly feel that Patrick Patterson was a bigger miss than Greg Monroe, although Monroe was also extremely disappointing. With Patterson, I truly believe last year's team would have been a Final Four contender, and this year's team a national title favorite. Just because both kids made terrible decisions shouldn't make us feel better.

The problem at hand is that it is very possible that having Wojo as our big man coach may heavily influence these kids to go somewhere else. Many posters have been criticized for questioning the merits of Wojo as the bigs coach. This revelation regarding Monroe validates those posters.

Like I said, I think a great solution - one which would be easily employed - would be to have Nate James as big man coach. Have him become the primary recruiter of big men recruits. I would feel much better about our chances of landing power forwards who would thrive in our system if that coaching structure were in place.

[Duvall]

Like I said, I think a great solution - one which would be easily employed - would be to have Nate James as big man coach. Have him become the primary recruiter of big men recruits. I would feel much better about our chances of landing power forwards who would thrive in our system if that coaching structure were in place.

Based on what, exactly? I'm sure Nate would do a fine job, but he was a shooting guard, not a power forward.

[pfrduke]

The problem at hand is that it is very possible that having Wojo as our big man coach may heavily influence these kids to go somewhere else. Many posters have been criticized for questioning the merits of Wojo as the bigs coach. This revelation regarding Monroe validates those posters.

Like I said, I think a great solution - one which would be easily employed - would be to have Nate James as big man coach. Have him become the primary recruiter of big men recruits. I would feel much better about our chances of landing power forwards who would thrive in our system if that coaching structure were in place.

But is Nate James actually a better big man coach than Wojo? I would wager that none of us really knows whether or not Wojo is an adequate, poor, good, or great coach of big men (I certainly don't). There's anecdotal evidence both ways - Williams and Boozer showed tremendous improvement over their careers, although the progress was from good to great, rather than from average to great, while Zoubek and Thomas have shown much less improvement (but still improved). Near as I can recall, no former Duke big man has come out and said something to the effect of "Steve Wocjiechowski (there's no possible way I spelled that right) held me back - it wasn't until I left Duke that I learned how to be a good post player."

If the problem is just one of perception, the way to respond is to cure the perception, not react to it. Get our former bigs to talk openly with potential recruits about the level of coaching they got. Have Wojo run through a practice session with the recruit. Etc.

If the perception is accurate, and Wojo is, in fact, not a good big man coach, by all means let's get someone else to take that role. If that person can be Nate James, all the better. But we shouldn't be making personnel changes just to react to outside perception unless those changes are actually going to improve our team.

[gotham devil]

Ah, back to one of the old standards.

I would challenge Cowherd and any other clown who only watches hoop when they need something to gamble on in football's off-season to look around the country for great "big men". How many are there, in terms of back to the basket 7 foot types?

Almost none. I'll give you Thabeet and Aldrich. Earl Cook is a nice player, but he is certainly not a world-beater. Hans, well, we all know that story (and isn't it interesting that he was on the bench for most of the UNC run on Saturday?). And Hans is 6'8". I'm waiting. Hmmm. There just aren't many big men who fit that profile anymore. Blair might be 6'8". Talented bigs (like Monroe, I'm personally not that sold on Patterson) are few and far between, and yes, they aren't picking Duke for whatever reason. I think the reason may be that Duke is not likely to tailor its entire system to one guy who will be on campus one year. Just my opinion.

Duke does seem to lack the guys around 6'8" who are up there in weight class (I would say strong, but Kyle has answered all the strength questions. He looks skinny sometimes, but he's a strong dude). I would personally love to see another McLeod type of guy. It'd be great to have someone of his size and build in the paint.

But the notion that there are scores of 7 footers wandering the gyms of America is ludicrous. There just aren't many of these guys. Duke hasn't gotten one of them, but almost no one else has, either.

Cowherd should go back to analyzing the fourth round of the upcoming NFL Draft.

dukemsu.

I don't know how often you watch college basketball, but I assume you meant Earl Clark, not Earl Cook. Although he will be a lottery pick, he was actually outplayed by Brian Zoubek in the playoffs as a senior in high school. Regardless of his growth, suitability, and performance at Duke, based upon his high school performance, longtime HS guru and Krzyzewski friend Howard "Garf" Garfinkel infamously felt he would be Duke's best big man since Mike Gminski.

Louisville, which employs Walter McCarty as their big man coach, has 6'9" Clark, a pair of top 20 freshman 6'8" Samuels and 6'11" Jennings as well as an early verbal from potentially the top junior in 6'10" Jeremy Tyler.

Duke had a chance to hire Rosh McLeod, but opted for Nate James. When and if Collins and Wojo get head coaching jobs in the very near future, perhaps Coach Krzyzewski will try to lure McLeod away from Tom Crean.

[pfrduke]

Based on what, exactly? I'm sure Nate would do a fine job, but he was a shooting guard, not a power forward.

I agree with your overall premise, but write merely to point out that Nate was primarily an inside in high school, and had to do a lot of work at Duke to develop his perimeter game. IIRC, he was recruited as a SF/PF combo, but ultimately ended up a SG/SF combo.

[Duvall]

Unfortunately, compared to Blair at 6-7 1/2 and 265 pounds, Roshown ,at 6-8 and 220 pounds(small forward in the NBA), would look lean.

Exactly. Duke has a pretty good 6-8, 220 pound forward that can score inside and outside. Not that it wouldn't help to have another one.

[Ian]

Look, just because somebody says that's why he didn't pick Duke, doesn't mean that was actually the reason he didn't pick Duke.

So if a recruit says he connected better with an assistant at GT than he did with Chris Collins, should we fire Chris Collins. How about a recruit says he wanted to wear dreads and didn't pick Duke because of that, you're going to insist on K changing that policy too. If you're going to let your program be ran by the reasons 18 year olds throw out there that may or may not even be the real reasons. Where does it end?

Perception is NOT reality. In the end you just have to hire the person you think can best do the job and the chips fall where they may.

We should replace Wojo as the big men coach only if we think somebody can do a better job. And if the perception is wrong, then you go out and try to change the perception, not pander to it.

[dukemsu]

I don't know how often you watch college basketball, but I assume you meant Earl Clark, not Earl Cook. Although he will be a lottery pick, he was actually outplayed by Brian Zoubek in the playoffs as a senior in high school. Regardless of his growth, suitability, and performance at Duke, based upon his high school performance, longtime HS guru and Krzyzewski friend Howard "Garf" Garfinkel infamously felt he would be Duke's best big man since Mike Gminski.

Louisville, which employs Walter McCarty as their big man coach, has 6'9" Clark, a pair of top 20 freshman 6'8" Samuels and 6'11" Jennings as well as an early verbal from potentially the top junior in 6'10" Jeremy Tyler.

Duke had a chance to hire Rosh McLeod, but opted for Nate James. When and if Collins and Wojo get head coaching jobs in the very near future, perhaps Coach Krzyzewski will try to lure McLeod away from Tom Crean.

I watch quite a bit. Way too much if you ask my fiancee. Sorry about the Cook/Clark confusion.

Obviously, Pitino is doing a great job at Louisville and they are getting a ton of kids. Not sure if it's a direct correlation to McCarty, but it probably doesn't hurt. If it's a big man development thing, I don't know of any major Louisville big guys making a big splash in the NBA. Maybe I'm missing someone.

I just think the Wojo thing is a bit overblown, and the stuff about him not being able to coach bigs is your standard negative recruiting tactic that has developed legs. There are very few "Big" coaches. Most coaches were and are guards. The Big Coach bit is a fairly new development. Manning and McCarty are two of a few.

Who's the big man coach at Washington? Is that why they got Brockman? I'm not being a smart aleck, I'm genuinely curious. They got Hawes, too.

dukemsu

[_Gary]

And if the perception is wrong, then you go out and try to change the perception, not pander to it.

Much easier said than done. One need look no further than to the "Duke gets all the calls" phenomenon to see how hard it is to change public perception. That mantra has been spouted since at least 2001 (thanks Billy P.) and even after several subpar tourney outings from Duke the hate just keeps on coming, and the mantra continues to be espoused. I utterly disagree with you when you say "Perception is NOT reality". Sorry, but in cases like the one we are discussing now - it is.

[Johnboy]

The problem at hand is that it is very possible that having Wojo as our big man coach may heavily influence these kids to go somewhere else. Many posters have been criticized for questioning the merits of Wojo as the bigs coach. This revelation regarding Monroe validates those posters.


Dissent. One data point of hearsay doesn't go that far. It may validate the need for further inquiry about Wojo, followed by a PR campaign that kills the perception. Blue Planet - are you hearing me?

[BD80]

I have long been a stanch supporter of Coach K and his ability to assemble a team and a coaching staff, but the persuasive and unassailable facts are what they are.

Wojo and Collins must go - too slow, white and small. They can't recruit the urban ethnic players we need to compete on the national stage.

Coach K should go too.

We need progressive coaches who can bring in the top recruits, like JT III at Georgetown (Greg Monroe), Billy Donovan at Florida (Kenny Boynton), or Billy Gillespie at Kentucky (Patrick Patterson). These recruiting disasters have left us an uncompetitive shell of our former selves while these other programs have steamed on past us.

Of course this has been entirely sarcastic, as the three supposed catastrophic recruiting misses have not prevented Duke from making the sweet 16 nor have they propelled the "winners" even as far as the big dance.

To the extent there has been a perception about our coaching that is negatively affecting our recruiting, I am certain Coach K will take appropriate action. I imagine having Nate and Chris C on the staff will alleviate many concerns expressed here. Since Johnny D left and Wojo and Chris Collins were promoted, does our staff still identify Wojo as the coach responsible for post players?

Has anybody considered that Monroe might just feel stupid for having selected the Hoyas instead of Duke and is looking for an excuse for his poor choice?

[sagegrouse]

I hesitate to post in a thread that I think should be deferred until May, but here goes.........

Most college centers will not play C in the NBA. They will be forwards, including every single Duke A-A in the middle (Ferry, Laettner, Brand, Boozer). Maybe Monroe is an exception, but who knows until we see how he fills out? The selling point at Duke (and just look at the Olympic team when Chris Bosh was on the court) is that all players on the team get to develop really good basketball skills across the board, which increases their marketability in pro hoops. Only a player like Zoubek will become a specialist -- essentially because his ability is so limited.

sagegrouse

[Oriole Way]

But is Nate James actually a better big man coach than Wojo? I would wager that none of us really knows whether or not Wojo is an adequate, poor, good, or great coach of big men (I certainly don't). There's anecdotal evidence both ways - Williams and Boozer showed tremendous improvement over their careers, although the progress was from good to great, rather than from average to great, while Zoubek and Thomas have shown much less improvement (but still improved). Near as I can recall, no former Duke big man has come out and said something to the effect of "Steve Wocjiechowski (there's no possible way I spelled that right) held me back - it wasn't until I left Duke that I learned how to be a good post player."

If the problem is just one of perception, the way to respond is to cure the perception, not react to it. Get our former bigs to talk openly with potential recruits about the level of coaching they got. Have Wojo run through a practice session with the recruit. Etc.

If the perception is accurate, and Wojo is, in fact, not a good big man coach, by all means let's get someone else to take that role. If that person can be Nate James, all the better. But we shouldn't be making personnel changes just to react to outside perception unless those changes are actually going to improve our team.

Neither of us knows for sure. But all I can go on is results. Frankly, I'm just not impressed with the development of our bigs apart from our NBA players. My grandmother could have coached Boozer and Williams and they would have improved both during their time at Duke and after. You may think differently, but I don't see much harm in shifting responsibility from a coach who played as a guard to a coach who played as a forward/wing and exhibited some of the skills big men utilize when he was a player himself.

When it comes to ACC players, recruiting is in many ways just as important as development. We need to get these kids on campus before worrying if Nate James would be more qualified than Wojo to be the big man coach (which, for the record, I think he would do an adequate job considering Wojo's credentials weren't ideal for the position to begin with either). Let's assume Nate James would be an inferior big man coach to Wojo, but that we get a recruit like Monroe or Patterson because having James as the bigs coach doesn't discourage them from committing. I'll take that trade off, because I have much more confidence in Coach K to develop those players than anyone who could possibly be our big man coach anyway.

The key issue for me here is that it is unacceptable to lose a recruit because a perception exists that someone who will be coaching them will not help them develop, as wrong as that recruit may be. If an average poster like me can look at Wojo and think "How is a tiny, defensive-minded point guard qualified to coach big men?", and an elite big man recruit thinks the same thing, then there's a serious problem which needs to be rectified.

I once had a chemistry teacher in high school. She was terrible. After I graduated, I found out she got her Masters in Education, and never received a degree of any sort in the Sciences, let alone Chemistry. I was not happy that my teacher was not specialized in what she taught me, even though she may have been been qualified as an instructor in a general sense. Now, I am not saying that Wojo is a bad bigs coach, so please don't misunderstand me. But there are similarities in the two situations. If, as an incoming junior chemistry student, I had the choice between her and another professor who received a degree in Natural Sciences, why would I want to pick the professor who wasn't well-versed in Chemistry? I am aware that Monroe wound up picking a school where his bigs coaches were guards. But I can understand why he would look at Wojo's resume and not want to be coached by him.

[gotham devil]

I watch quite a bit. Way too much if you ask my fiancee. Sorry about the Cook/Clark confusion.

Obviously, Pitino is doing a great job at Louisville and they are getting a ton of kids. Not sure if it's a direct correlation to McCarty, but it probably doesn't hurt. If it's a big man development thing, I don't know of any major Louisville big guys making a big splash in the NBA. Maybe I'm missing someone.

I just think the Wojo thing is a bit overblown, and the stuff about him not being able to coach bigs is your standard negative recruiting tactic that has developed legs. There are very few "Big" coaches. Most coaches were and are guards. The Big Coach bit is a fairly new development. Manning and McCarty are two of a few.

Who's the big man coach at Washington? Is that why they got Brockman? I'm not being a smart aleck, I'm genuinely curious. They got Hawes, too.

dukemsu
1) Your fiance needs to prioritize. ;)
2) God, we could have used Brockman.
It was widely circulated in recruiting circles that whichever program landed Brockman would also be the beneficiary of his close friend and future lottery pick Hawes. So Hawes, a dyed-in-the-wool Republican llike Coach K, was unfortunately a fait accompli. Many have written that Brockman wanted to play close to his hs girlfriend, family and friends. His father indicated earlier this month that Jon picked UW over Duke not only for the proximity, but also because of Romar.
http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2009/mar/18/chuck-stark-viewpoint-jon-brockman-a-chip-off/

3) There are a few other notable big men coaches like Donny Daniels at UCLA, Sean Kearney at Notre Dame, and Rob Murphy at Syracuse. UConn has had built an excellent reputation at developing big men, but they apparently don't use a single coach approach.

[-jk]

Perhaps (and why the hell am I posting now when we have business in Boston that should take precedence?) - just perhaps - Coach prefers players who care more about reality than perception.

And the reality of K's record is second to, well, maybe one.

-jk

[Ian]

Much easier said than done. One need look no further than to the "Duke gets all the calls" phenomenon to see how hard it is to change public perception. That mantra has been spouted since at least 2001 (thanks Billy P.) and even after several subpar tourney outings from Duke the hate just keeps on coming, and the mantra continues to be espoused. I utterly disagree with you when you say "Perception is NOT reality". Sorry, but in cases like the one we are discussing now - it is.

You just contradicted yourself.

If perception IS reality. Then the public perception that "Duke get all the calls" would mean that Duke, indeed, gets all the calls.

The only reason to fight against it is because perception is actually NOT reality, and therefore, when perceptions about Duke is wrong, it's up to the program and the Duke fans to change it to conform them to reality.

Is is easy? Of course not. So what, few things in life are.

[SoCalDukeFan]

You are a recruiter of Someother U. You and Duke are pursuing a big man. You tell the kid that Wojo is not a good big man coach, has the wrong experience etc. You then say that Brian Zoubek was a McD AA who has not panned out, that Eric Boateng transferred, that Micheal Thompson transferred.

If Wojo did a great job with Williams and Boozer, then I would love to hear them say it. He may have. Actually I am pretty sure that Coach K thinks Wojo is doing a great job otherwise he would make changes.

SoCal

[Ian]

Personally. I think even Zoubek and Thomas have gotten a lot better since they have gotten here.

And to dismiss Boozer and Shelden's success as players who "my grandmother could have coached" is ridiculous.

If that's the case, then coaching doesn't matter, talent is all that matters, then the only reason Greg Monroe is saying the things he is saying is because he isn't as good as Boozer and Shelden any way. That unlike those two, he actually needs coaching help.

So why are we worried about losing him anyway, let's just concentrate on recruiting the real blue chips who can be good without coaching.

So either you accept Boozer and Shelden as evidence of successful big men coaching by the staff, or you accept that coaching doesn't matter, in which case it doesn't really matter who we hire as the big men coach, so why complain about Wojo?

[Eldorado]

You then say that Brian Zoubek was a McD AA who has not panned out, that Eric Boateng transferred, that Micheal Thompson transferred.


the funny thing with most of the disgruntled big men who have transferred or left early is that they haven't performed any better since leaving. The only guy who had any kind of post-duke success was Shavlik Randolph, who was clearly limited by injuries most of his Duke career.

I think Duke does pretty well recruiting and developing big men, given that there are so few of them around, and that the NBA snatches them up if they are any good.

[FireOgilvie]

So either you accept Boozer and Shelden as evidence of successful big men coaching by the staff, or you accept that coaching doesn't matter, in which case it doesn't really matter who we hire as the big men coach, so why complain about Wojo?

Why complain about Wojo? The whole point of the thread was saying Wojo is a negative for Duke's recruiting of big men. So, we can't get the talented big men in the first place.

[pfrduke]

Neither of us knows for sure. But all I can go on is results. Frankly, I'm just not impressed with the development of our bigs apart from our NBA players. My grandmother could have coached Boozer and Williams and they would have improved both during their time at Duke and after.

This is completely self-serving. For guys who became stars, it can't possibly have anything to do with good coaching (and let's ignore the fact that Shelden developed from a foul-prone, stone-handed freshman to an extremely talented shot-blocker who, despite being left on an island inside, learned to block without fouling and developed a variety of offensive moves - as well as much better hands - over his career). For guys who didn't, it must be a coaching failure. Not granting credit for the work of our best big men and only looking at the alleged failures of those who aren't our best is just pure confirmation bias - you want to see bad big man coaching, so that's what you see.


When it comes to ACC players, recruiting is in many ways just as important as development. We need to get these kids on campus before worrying if Nate James would be more qualified than Wojo to be the big man coach (which, for the record, I think he would do an adequate job considering Wojo's credentials weren't ideal for the position to begin with either). Let's assume Nate James would be an inferior big man coach to Wojo, but that we get a recruit like Monroe or Patterson because having James as the bigs coach doesn't discourage them from committing. I'll take that trade off, because I have much more confidence in Coach K to develop those players than anyone who could possibly be our big man coach anyway.

As to the bolded sentence above, it seems contradictory to your earlier point that you're unimpressed with our big man development. Also, what bona fides does Coach K (a former point guard) have for coaching big men that Wojo doesn't? It's not like Duke was churning out top-flight post players under Coach K until Wojo came along.

Moreover, do you know (I have no knowledge either way) how much time Coach K spends working on post fundamentals with the big men? If he's not running the position drills and making technique corrections himself, then who our big man coach is becomes more important from a talent development POV. More to the point, if it didn't matter - from an actual coaching perspective - who our big man coach was, we wouldn't have one.


The key issue for me here is that it is unacceptable to lose a recruit because a perception exists that someone who will be coaching them will not help them develop, as wrong as that recruit may be. If an average poster like me can look at Wojo and think "How is a tiny, defensive-minded point guard qualified to coach big men?", and an elite big man recruit thinks the same thing, then there's a serious problem which needs to be rectified.

We have one person sort of on record (it was second-hand) as saying he was discouraged by Wojo. Should we react similarly when single high-profile recruits have erroneous perceptions about their ability to develop other parts of their game at Duke? What about a recruit who thinks K cares more about team than player and will alter a player's desired role in order to best suit the team? Heck, what if a HS point guard looks at Greg Paulus' career and thinks "Coach K doesn't know how to develop point guards, so I shouldn't go to Duke"? What coaching change should we make to remedy that false perception?

Look, I'm not saying we should hold on to Wojo for the sake of stubbornness. If he's not doing a good job at his job, by all means, let's explore other options. But I think it's overreaction to suggest a coaching change just because Greg Monroe thinks Wojo isn't good at his job.

[Ian]

Did you even read my post?

Because I already answered your in it.

[NSDukeFan]

I have long been a stanch supporter of Coach K and his ability to assemble a team and a coaching staff, but the persuasive and unassailable facts are what they are.

Wojo and Collins must go - too slow, white and small. They can't recruit the urban ethnic players we need to compete on the national stage.

Coach K should go too.

We need progressive coaches who can bring in the top recruits, like JT III at Georgetown (Greg Monroe), Billy Donovan at Florida (Kenny Boynton), or Billy Gillespie at Kentucky (Patrick Patterson). These recruiting disasters have left us an uncompetitive shell of our former selves while these other programs have steamed on past us.

Of course this has been entirely sarcastic, as the three supposed catastrophic recruiting misses have not prevented Duke from making the sweet 16 nor have they propelled the "winners" even as far as the big dance.

To the extent there has been a perception about our coaching that is negatively affecting our recruiting, I am certain Coach K will take appropriate action. I imagine having Nate and Chris C on the staff will alleviate many concerns expressed here. Since Johnny D left and Wojo and Chris Collins were promoted, does our staff still identify Wojo as the coach responsible for post players?

Has anybody considered that Monroe might just feel stupid for having selected the Hoyas instead of Duke and is looking for an excuse for his poor choice?

First post I laughed out loud at in awhile. That's great. I agree it's time to throw in the towel. Florida, Georgetown and Kentucky get all the big men and good recruits, so we might as well quit. :D

[Devilsfan]

Monroe just bought little john thompson's spin. Perception is 90% of the... recruitment process.

[RelativeWays]

I'm hoping that this question won't come up anymore in the next couple of years as Chris and Wojo get HC jobs of their own. Not because I want to get rid of them but because I want to see K's latest protogees succeed at the next level.

[moonpie23]

how's patrick patterson's "big man coach" working out ?

[FireOgilvie]

how's patrick patterson's "big man coach" working out ?

Pretty well. He was 1st Team All-SEC this year. He's averaging 18 pts, 9 reb, 2 blocks, and is shooting 60% from the field. Not bad for a sophomore. Duke hasn't had a guy do anything like that since Shelden's senior year.

Also, mgtr, Monroe is third on ESPN's mock draft. Not bad for someone at your "kiddie table."

[gep]

What about a recruit who thinks K cares more about team than player and will alter a player's desired role in order to best suit the team?

Isn't this exactly why Humphries wanted out of his LOI? and went elsewhere?

I'll take what we get... I'm happy...

[ice-9]

The more recent examples of Duke's successful centers - Boozer, Brand, Williams - were all really power forwards playing center in college. And even with those guys our offense did not revolve around dumping it into them. We did at times, but it wasn't the basis of our offense.

I the spirit of your post is valid, but I disagree with the examples.

With Brand, he was *absolutely* the focal point of our offense. It was an inside first, outside when doubled down attack. The fact that we had several capable shooters on that team doesn't change the fact that Brand was the anchor.

With Boozer, his offense came more from penetrate-dish, but that was also because we had two other NPOYs on the same team and a PG that could penetrate at will. If Boozer was on this year's team, my guess is that he would touch the ball on every offensive possession.

Shel was clearly the 2nd option after JJ, but c'mon, it's JJ.

So the point I'm trying to make is that when Coach K has talent at the 5, he will and knows how to make use of it. I think a compelling argument can be made to elite big men recruits that they wouldn't be ignored in the Duke offense.

Now the fact that Monroe pointed to Wojo as having credibility issues as a major reason for not picking Duke...that's definitely concerning. However, I don't see Coach K taking Wojo out of the big man coach position just to address that. There's also a part of me that thinks the hiring of Nate James as an assistant coach is Coach K's indirect solution to the perception problem.

[devildownunder]

Now the fact that Monroe pointed to Wojo as having credibility issues as a major reason for not picking Duke...that's definitely concerning. However, I don't see Coach K taking Wojo out of the big man coach position just to address that. There's also a part of me that thinks the hiring of Nate James as an assistant coach is Coach K's indirect solution to the perception problem.

When you say you "see Coach K taking Wojo out of the big man coach position," what do you mean? Has this happened, because I didn't think it had? Do you believe this is going to happen, and if so, what's your basis for that belief?

[devildownunder]

Monroe just bought little john thompson's spin. Perception is 90% of the... recruitment process.

If that's the case, I think we have a serious problem, and not just with the big men.

[moonpie23]

Pretty well. He was 1st Team All-SEC this year. He's averaging 18 pts, 9 reb, 2 blocks, and is shooting 60% from the field. Not bad for a sophomore. Duke hasn't had a guy do anything like that since Shelden's senior year.

Also, mgtr, Monroe is third on ESPN's mock draft. Not bad for someone at your "kiddie table."

all SEC is not much this year...imagine what he could be doing on the duke team.... :)


don't forget....kwame brown was high on the "draft list" too......just being high on that list doesn't put you on a team that is going to be more successful, and better for THE ATHELETE in the long run....

i'd be willing to bet that PP would trade some of those person numbers (on a terrible team) for a bit of a run...

[FerryFor50]

So, Mr. Monroe, still comfortable the guys at Georgetown? Mr. Patterson, UK still looking good? How are you guys enjoying the NIT? We are doing just fine in the big-boys tournament, AKA the NCAAs. Now you both had a chance to play in the grownup league, but you wanted to be "comfortable." Well, I expect you are comfortable. You don't have to work very hard, and you don't get anywhere. Whereas our guys, losers like Singler, Henderson, and Scheyer are in the Sweet Sixteen in the big-goys tournament.
Just like Thanksgiving -- we sit at the grownup table, you sit at the little kiddie table.

You DO realize that the failures of Georgetown and Kentucky this year have less to do with Monroe and Patterson and more to do with the rest of the players and the coaching right?

Monroe and Patterson are doing just fine - both are still high on draft boards and probably not regretting their decisions THAT much.

[-jk]

Let's not get petty, folks. We can do better than that.

-jk

[Matches]

This debate is somewhat circular. Standing alone, Monroe's (3rd-hand) comments are not that big a deal - he's welcome to his opinion, and we can't land everyone we'd like to.

If Monroe's comments reflect a popular sentiment among high-profile recruits, however, then we have to do *something* to combat that perception. Doesn't matter if Wojo is the greatest big man coach in history (and I tend to agree he's done a very good job) - if the perception is that he's not good, we won't land big men. Simple as that.

So is Monroe alone in the wilderness, or is this how a lot of people feel? I *know* it's a line that's being used against us in recruiting. Whether it's gaining traction.. I dunno.

[roywhite]

This debate is somewhat circular. Standing alone, Monroe's (3rd-hand) comments are not that big a deal - he's welcome to his opinion, and we can't land everyone we'd like to.

If Monroe's comments reflect a popular sentiment among high-profile recruits, however, then we have to do *something* to combat that perception. Doesn't matter if Wojo is the greatest big man coach in history (and I tend to agree he's done a very good job) - if the perception is that he's not good, we won't land big men. Simple as that.

So is Monroe alone in the wilderness, or is this how a lot of people feel? I *know* it's a line that's being used against us in recruiting. Whether it's gaining traction.. I dunno.

With the usual caveats about McDonald's "burger boys" All-Americans, seems to me that our big man recruiting has gone well for the 2009 class with Kelly and M2 Plumlee, and is off to a good start for 2010 with Josh Hairston, who looks to be a very good prospect in the 6'8"/6'9" range.

There've been a few misses, but that's part of recruiting.

I don't have any inside info, but I doubt Coach K is going to yank Wojo from his coaching and recruiting areas. Nate James will continue to get more involved with recruiting, but I don't see that as a reflection on Wojo.

[Boston Dukie]

If we have all been thinking that Wojo could be a problem as the big man coach, of course all the recruits have been thinking it as well. They are muc further removed from wojo, influenced by other coaches, and only 18 years old (so in theory a little more naive). It's that simple. We don't need Greg Monroe to say it out loud

Even if Wojo is the best big man coach ever it doesn't matter. All this talk about player development is over blown

Elton Brand, Boozer, Patterson, Monroe with no coaching are >>>> Zoubek with 4 years of coaching from Pete Newell

Talent matters

Get the talent on the team

Caoch K can then figure out what to do with it

[Duvall]

If we have all been thinking that Wojo could be a problem as the big man coach, of course all the recruits have been thinking it as well.

Well, it's hard to argue with logic like that.

[sagegrouse]

If we have all been thinking that Wojo could be a problem as the big man coach, of course all the recruits have been thinking it as well.


The statement "that Wojo is a problem as a big-man coach" is a "canard," an oft-repeated statement that happens to be false. The fact that a minority of posters on this board agree with it is of interest only to that minority.

We can do better than playing duck, duck, goose on this Board.

sagegrouse

[dgoore97]

this whole conversation goes away. just saying we only need one good recruit to see past this and change the perception out there. however, for the guys that say our problem is solved with plumlee and kelly, while they are good, neither of these guys is elton brand or john brockman.

[calltheobvious]

My wife and I are such maroons for having sought pre-marital counsel from a priest.

We're doomed.

[roywhite]

this whole conversation goes away. just saying we only need one good recruit to see past this and change the perception out there. however, for the guys that say our problem is solved with plumlee and kelly, while they are good, neither of these guys is elton brand or john brockman.

Perhaps we could at least wait until these current high school seniors actually attend Duke, practice, and play before determining they're not the answer?

[JBDuke]

This is going nowhere fast, and is a distraction at a time when our team is preparing for a Sweet 16 matchup.

Duke's success (or perceived lack thereof) with big men has been fodder for debate on these boards as long as they've been in existence. It will be fodder for debate after April 6th, as well.

This thread is CLOSED.