Heyman's top five all-time best Duke players

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Art Heyman
Christian Laettner
Johnny Dawkins
Shane Battier
Jason Williams

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Sports/Headlines/sptBKC01031909.htm

[CameronBlue]

Art Heyman
Christian Laettner
Johnny Dawkins
Shane Battier
Jason Williams

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Sports/Headlines/sptBKC01031909.htm

I would not argue with that. Heyman was one of the few, if only, players named NCAA Tourney MVP on a team that didn't win the title.

[Grey Devil]

I would not argue with that. Heyman was one of the few, if only, players named NCAA Tourney MVP on a team that didn't win the title.

He was one of the few, but not the only, one to be named MVP on a team that didn't win the title. I don't know who else may have won that honor without wining the championship, but I do know that Howard Porter of Villanova won MVP in 1971 when his team lost to UCLA in the championship game, outplaying the incredible Sydney Wicks of UCLA. Unfortunately that honor was vacated when it was later reported that Porter had signed a professional contract with the Condors of the ABA during his senior year.

I only know that because I went to high school in the same town as Porter and saw him play there. He was an incredible athlete. Once, while playing in high school, he dunked the ball so hard that it broke the backboard. At that time the backboards were wooden, not shatter-proof glass.... I think that may have happened in a game where his team won by the ridiculous score of 166-66 (when they had to call the game because the backboard was broken)!

Grey Devil

[blueprofessor]

He was one of the few, but not the only, one to be named MVP on a team that didn't win the title. I don't know who else may have won that honor without wining the championship, but I do know that Howard Porter of Villanova won MVP in 1971 when his team lost to UCLA in the championship game, outplaying the incredible Sydney Wicks of UCLA. Unfortunately that honor was vacated when it was later reported that Porter had signed a professional contract with the Condors of the ABA during his

Grey Devil

only one player ,Olajuwon of Houston, not on the championship team has won the Most Outstanding Player in the FF. In 1981, UVA beat LSU in the last consolation game.

Other FF MOPs, in addition to Heyman and Porter in 1971, not on the championship team are:
1966 Chambers
1965 Bradley
1961 Lucas
1959 West
1958 Baylor
1957 Wilt
1956 Lear
1953 Horn
In 1939 and 1951, no MOP was named.

Utah's Chambers, Heyman, Bradley, and Temple's Hal Lear did not play for the champion or runner-up.

Best--Blueprof:)

[NYC Duke Fan]

Art Heyman
Christian Laettner
Johnny Dawkins
Shane Battier
Jason Williams

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Sports/Headlines/sptBKC01031909.htm

Would substitue Grant Hill for Jason Williams

[CameronBlue]

only one player ,Olajuwon of Houston, not on the championship team has won the Most Outstanding Player in the FF. In 1981, UVA beat LSU in the last consolation game.

Other FF MOPs, in addition to Heyman and Porter in 1971, not on the championship team are:
1966 Chambers
1965 Bradley
1961 Lucas
1959 West
1958 Baylor
1957 Wilt
1956 Lear
1953 Horn
In 1939 and 1951, no MOP was named.



Utah's Chambers, Heyman, Bradley, and Temple's Hal Lear did not play for the champion or runner-up.

Best--Blueprof:)

Impressive list. I'm not an NBA historian but on first glance, there's at least 6NBA Hall of Famers there: Lear, Wilt, Baylor, West, Lucas and Bradley.

[-jk]

Art Heyman
Christian Laettner
Johnny Dawkins
Shane Battier
Jason Williams

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Sports/Headlines/sptBKC01031909.htm

I have no problem with the list. And he certainly has always had the ba... self confidence to (rightfully) put himself on the list.

Certainly, I'd take that team against anyone, anywhere.

-jk

[captmojo]

I have no problem with the list. And he certainly has always had the ba... self confidence to (rightfully) put himself on the list.

Certainly, I'd take that team against anyone, anywhere.

-jk

Not only on the list....but FIRST on the list. :D

[blueprofessor]

Impressive list. I'm not an NBA historian but on first glance, there's at least 6NBA Hall of Famers there: Lear, Wilt, Baylor, West, Lucas and Bradley.

right on. :)
Best--Blueprof :)

[Lord Ash]

Am I a total idiot for maybe considering not having JWill on my own top 5 team? It would be very hard to keep Bobby Hurley and Grant Hill off such a team... loved Jason, of course, and MAN he was good, but...

I suppose it is just a matter of individual taste at the end, the sort of thing you can't be wrong with:)

Loved Art, he is a bit of a badass;)

[Faison1]

Not only on the list....but FIRST on the list. :D

I wish I had been around to see him play. I really enjoy watching that kind of attitude on the court.

[captmojo]

I wish I had been around to see him play. I really enjoy watching that kind of attitude on the court.

This is why Laettner was second on his list. :D

[RainingThrees]

Would anyone replace Johnny Dawkins with JJ?

[78Devil]

Would I replace Johnny with JJ?

No.

And I'm a huge JJ fan.

[Jim3k]

Hey! It's Artie's list, not your list (generic 'your'). He can choose who he wants. We don't get to second-guess,

Now, it might be interesting to put together a Duke team you think can beat his team.

I might choose a team with Redick, Mullins, Verga, Marin and Boozer. Or possibly one of Gminski, Spanarkel, Brand, Armstrong and Duhon.

Game on!

[KrazyKfan]

Would I replace Johnny with JJ?

No.

And I'm a huge JJ fan.

Right cause it really doesn't make since to put the all-time leading scorer at Duke on that list.

My list:

Redick
Battier
Laettner
Gminski
Hurley

Second Team:

Boozer
Singler (Maybe not right now, but in the future...)
Hill
J. Williams
Duhon

I am a VERY biased to the newer players because I am bit younger.

Still, I give a lot of credit to Gminski as he is one of Duke's leading scorers.

[Johnboy]

Right cause it really doesn't make since to put the all-time leading scorer at Duke on that list.


A few things to note:
Redick had a three point line and shot clock that Dawkins didn't have.

More importantly, compared to JD, Redick showed a terrible tendency to get shut down in big games.

Most importantly, though, is that Johnny Dawkins played excellent defense, of a kind JJ never came close to attaining.

I love JJ, and he was a tremendous scorer, is a great kid and a wonderful representative of Duke. As a complete ballplayer, he does not compare favorably with Johnny Dawkins (IMNSHO).

[RainingThrees]

Right cause it really doesn't make since to put the all-time leading scorer at Duke on that list.

My list:

Redick
Battier
Laettner
Gminski
Hurley

Second Team:

Boozer
Singler (Maybe not right now, but in the future...)
Hill
J. Williams
Duhon

I am a VERY biased to the newer players because I am bit younger.

Still, I give a lot of credit to Gminski as he is one of Duke's leading scorers.

I would replace Singler with the Landlord.

[FerryFor50]

Right cause it really doesn't make since to put the all-time leading scorer at Duke on that list.

My list:

Redick
Battier
Laettner
Gminski
Hurley

Second Team:

Boozer
Singler (Maybe not right now, but in the future...)
Hill
J. Williams
Duhon

I am a VERY biased to the newer players because I am bit younger.

Still, I give a lot of credit to Gminski as he is one of Duke's leading scorers.

Personally, I'd take Ferry over Gminski.

[gethlives]

Impressive list. I'm not an NBA historian but on first glance, there's at least 6NBA Hall of Famers there: Lear, Wilt, Baylor, West, Lucas and Bradley.

One more that wasn't mentioned was Akeem in 1983, the last losing player to be an MOP.

[Susan]

Right cause it really doesn't make since to put the all-time leading scorer at Duke on that list.

My list:

Redick
Battier
Laettner
Gminski
Hurley

Second Team:

Boozer
Singler (Maybe not right now, but in the future...)
Hill
J. Williams
Duhon

I am a VERY biased to the newer players because I am bit younger.

Still, I give a lot of credit to Gminski as he is one of Duke's leading scorers.

Here are my thoughts: Move Hurley in from List #1 to list #2 (replacing Duhon) and put Dawkins on the first team. Move Gminski from list #1 to list #2 (replacing Singler), put Heyman on list #1, and put Ferry on list #2 replacing Boozer. So we have (listed in no particular order and not assigned by position):

First Team: Redick, Battier, Laettner, Heyman, Dawkins

Second Team: Ferry, Gminski, Hill, J.Williams, Hurley

[davekay1971]

My list for consideration on the all time Duke team:

Heyman, Mullins, Gminski, Dawkins, Amaker, Ferry, Laettner, Hill, Hurley, Battier, Boozer, JWill, Duhon, Redick, The Landlord.

G Henderson, Singler, and all Scheyer may be added once their careers are complete...all three have untapped potential. Imagine where G will be with another year of growth if he stays. Imagine Scheyer as a senior floor general. Imagine Singler's toughness and tenacity in a Duke uniform for 2 more years...But for right now I'll just consider players past.

I did not consider anyone staying for 2 years or less (thus no Brand or Deng). I included everyone (I think) who has had their number retired. I gave a little oomph to Amaker for his role in building Duke to what it has become, both as a player and later as a key assistant (not fair, but I love Amaker, so there you are). I gave a little boost to the championship team players as well.

There are so many other players who have had wonderful careers and helped to make Duke history what it is (Carrawell, Langdon, Wojo, Capel, McCloud, Dunleavy Jr, Spanarkle, Banks, Parks, Brickey, James, etc...) that it kind of hurts to leave them off the teams...

From that list:
1st team
Hurley
Dawkins
G
Ferry
Laettner

2nd team
JWill
Redick
Battier
Heyman
Gminski

3rd team
Amaker
Duhon
Mullins
Boozer
the Landlord

[Jarhead]

Yes,, it is always a fun discussion. That is, until I notice that no one has mentioned my #1 on the list, Dick Groat.

[davekay1971]

Yes,, it is always a fun discussion. That is, until I notice that no one has mentioned my #1 on the list, Dick Groat.

You're right...that's a HUGE oversight on my part. I kept looking at my lists and feeling I'd left someone important out. Thanks! Not sure where I'd put him (probably second team, given my own baises), but he should definitely be in the discussion for top 5 all time.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Yes,, it is always a fun discussion. That is, until I notice that no one has mentioned my #1 on the list, Dick Groat.
I was surprised that Groat wasn't on Heyman's list to begin with.

We have been bless by so many great players over the years, in every decade of Duke basketball. May the trend, and discussions, continue forever! :cool:

[LaettnerWannabe]

Unforunately for me, I only can go back to the mid 80s. So I think my first team would be:

Christian Laettner
Grant Hill
Jason Williams
Johnny Dawkins
Shane Battier

I think a lot of Bobby Hurley and it was damn hard to leave him off this list. Likewise for Elton Brand, but I left him off because he was only at Duke for 2 years.

I think it says a LOT about the program through the years that there are so many players to consider.

[dball]

Right cause it really doesn't make since to put the all-time leading scorer at Duke on that list.

My list:

Redick
Battier
Laettner
Gminski
Hurley

Second Team:

Boozer
Singler (Maybe not right now, but in the future...)
Hill
J. Williams
Duhon

I am a VERY biased to the newer players because I am bit younger.

Still, I give a lot of credit to Gminski as he is one of Duke's leading scorers.

Since you put a lot of emphasis on scoring, you may want to consider scoring averages as well as total points.

Here's the scoring average list
Art Heyman 25.1
Dick Groat 23.0
Bob Verga 22.0
Jeff Mullins 21.9

Redick averaged 19.9 with Randy Denton, Jason Williams, Johnny D and Mike G also averaging 19+. Heyman also averaged about 11 rebounds a game. So, he averaged a double double (25/11) pretty much night in/night out. No one has ever been more productive. I realize you are more familiar with more recent terrific players but I can't see anyway to leave Heyman off the list.

Redick played 60! more games during his career than Heyman. The scoring total would not have been close had Heyman been able to play as a freshman and enjoyed the extended schedule that current squads have.

One could easily put Groat on the first team, too. Only consideration might be that he didn't play in the ACC era.

Bob Verga would probably be a better comparison to JJ than Dawkins by the way. If there had been a 3 point line, his career totals would have been much higher. He too could not play as a freshman at that time. Regarding another post, Dawkins did have a very short 3 point line for his freshman year and he made 19 of 54. Not sure that shot was a big part of his game, but I would agree his defensive prowess and ability to get his own shot (and to take and make the big shot) would put him ahead of JJ on my list.

[BobbyFan]

All-time teams are difficult because it depends on whether we are only considering peak value or factoring in the duration that someone played at a particular level.

But whatever the criteria, Grant Hill is on my 1st team - best Duke player I've seen.

[SoCalDukeFan]

to have seen Heyman play for one year. He is on my all time Duke team. He was a great player.

I guess the others are
Laettner
Hurley
Hill
Brand

If I can't have Brand because he only played two years, then Dawkins.

Did not see Groat.

It is hard not to put Jason Williams or Boozer or Ferry or Battier on the team.


SoCal

[Rogue]

Since you put a lot of emphasis on scoring, you may want to consider scoring averages as well as total points.

Here's the scoring average list
Art Heyman 25.1
Dick Groat 23.0
Bob Verga 22.0
Jeff Mullins 21.9

Redick averaged 19.9 with Randy Denton, Jason Williams, Johnny D and Mike G also averaging 19+. Heyman also averaged about 11 rebounds a game. So, he averaged a double double (25/11) pretty much night in/night out. No one has ever been more productive. I realize you are more familiar with more recent terrific players but I can't see anyway to leave Heyman off the list.

Redick played 60! more games during his career than Heyman. The scoring total would not have been close had Heyman been able to play as a freshman and enjoyed the extended schedule that current squads have.

One could easily put Groat on the first team, too. Only consideration might be that he didn't play in the ACC era.

Bob Verga would probably be a better comparison to JJ than Dawkins by the way. If there had been a 3 point line, his career totals would have been much higher. He too could not play as a freshman at that time. Regarding another post, Dawkins did have a very short 3 point line for his freshman year and he made 19 of 54. Not sure that shot was a big part of his game, but I would agree his defensive prowess and ability to get his own shot (and to take and make the big shot) would put him ahead of JJ on my list.

And Bubus would have to put Mullins on the bench sometimes to make sure Heyman got his lol..
Verga was the best pure shooter I'd seen till JJ.. There was a great Sports Illustrated artical on Verga back in the day.. "The Lonely Hours of a Star" .. about 1966 :)

[Jim3k]

If you throw out Jack Marin's sophomore year when he was playing behind Mullins, you find a player who averaged about 19 points a game (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=242). He shot 50% from the floor and 75% from the line. The link doesn't show rebounds and other stats from those years, but he was, at 6-7, 200-210, an excellent rebounder.

And, if anyone remembers a thread about 2 years ago, Bubas is quoted as saying that Jack was the best all-around player he coached -- including Heyman, Mullins, and Verga. Jack was one of Duke's best. Plus, he was left-handed and nearly impossible to guard. His long NBA career attests to how good he was.