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Lotus000
03-15-2009, 07:05 PM
Anybody catch Jay Bilas and Dickie V arguing on ESPN at five after seven EST?

Jay Bilas came across as a smug, arrogant [jerk].

dukie8
03-15-2009, 07:10 PM
Anybody catch Jay Bilas and Dickie V arguing on ESPN at five after seven EST?

Jay Bilas came across as a smug, arrogant [jerk].

i disagree. so much of what comes out of bilas's mouth is nonsense but he was spot on in that argument. dickie v came across as an out-of-touch curmudgeon. how can any reasonable person believe that st mary's is the same team today that it was in the 1st half against gonzaga? mills still is not 100% and they aren't 1 of the top 34 teams. it sucks because with him at 100%, they clearly would be 1 of the top 34 but that's how it is.

superdave
03-15-2009, 07:12 PM
I thought Bilas was right. Viatle loses a lot of points for getting upset and saying "You guys are right and my opinion doesnt count." Childish.

Bilas had a clear point - mid-majors must play top 20 teams out of conference.

SMO
03-15-2009, 07:12 PM
i disagree. so much of what comes out of bilas's mouth is nonsense but he was spot on in that argument. dickie v came across as an out-of-touch curmudgeon. how can any reasonable person believe that st mary's is the same team today that it was in the 1st half against gonzaga? mills still is not 100% and they aren't 1 of the top 34 teams. it sucks because with him at 100%, they clearly would be 1 of the top 34 but that's how it is.

I think Dick came off looking silly. Jay had a sound argument Dick couldn't counter so Dick pulled a "I know you went to Duke" on him. Bilas and Digger called him on it too. Who would have thought Dukie V would say such a thing?

Lotus000
03-15-2009, 07:14 PM
Glad to see that you guys worship at the Altar of Jay like he worships at the Altar of UNC now.

Jay might have had an argument, but he was pretty darn smug about it. I haven't liked Jay in about three years, and that was the last straw for me. I wish he'd hang up his shoes and go practice law full time.

RainingThrees
03-15-2009, 07:14 PM
If I worked with Dick Vitale I would constantly be pissed.

dukie8
03-15-2009, 07:17 PM
Glad to see that you guys worship at the Altar of Jay like he worships at the Altar of UNC now.

Jay might have had an argument, but he was pretty darn smug about it. I haven't liked Jay in about three years, and that was the last straw for me. I wish he'd hang up his shoes and go practice law full time.

huh? i prefaced my post with how much i don't like what bilas has to say. arguing a point well is smug to you? geesh. vilale also is wrong that mid majors cannot get games against bcs schools. they might but on the road or on neutral sites in early tournaments but they can get them. davidson, gonzaga and memphis all schedule well.

i'm also glad that auburn and penn st didn't get in. they played horrific OOC schedules and rightly were penalized much like syracuse was last year.

Chitowndevil
03-15-2009, 07:21 PM
Oh, my. Forget Bilas vs. Vitale... did Bob Knight just say that women shouldn't be on the selection committee?! I really, really hope I misunderstood him.

superdave
03-15-2009, 07:22 PM
Actually I just thought Bilas was right and annoyed because Vitale didnt have a point. Keep your rude and personal comments to a minimum, please.

freedevil
03-15-2009, 07:26 PM
Jay Bilas reads and posts on this board. If you disagree with him, say so - but don't type anything you would not actually say to the man's face. Internet courage is amusing.

gotham devil
03-15-2009, 07:29 PM
Actually I just thought Bilas was right and annoyed because Vitale didnt have a point. Keep your rude and personal comments to a minimum, please.

I agree. I like Coach Vitale, but he was not prepared to get into this argument with Jay Bilas. This was Mike Tyson vs. Michael Spinks.

godukerocks
03-15-2009, 07:33 PM
Each had their own arguments; I was suprised Dick pulled the "you went to Duke" and "my opinion doesn't matter." I'm sort of disappointed in that, but whatever happened I really like both of them.

DukeFanInTerpLand
03-15-2009, 07:37 PM
It was quite a strange exchange from the beginning. I think they must have been arguing about this earlier or maybe this was a continuation of a longer argument because Bilas seemed to start a little irritated. Maybe he is just tired of Vitale, but he is cut off Vitale in a rude way and his question, while valid was posed accusingly. Reese Davis did nothing to diffuse the situation. I think Vitale just felt he was being ganged up on and got defensive.

superdave
03-15-2009, 07:37 PM
I think Knight did say something like that about women. If that's what he meant, hilarious. You could see the guys in studio not knowing how to react. Not quite sure of his point.

If I had to guess, I think he meant that these tournment committee people dont necessarily watch men;s basketball exclusively and are therefore not experts or qualified. Some watch women's, some men's, but none are experts. I think he was trying to say men's experts should pick men's brackets and women's experts should pick women's brackets.

Love the awkwardness on the PC espn network though!

dukebluelemur
03-15-2009, 07:56 PM
RMK is a couple generations behind on social expectations... and while I'm not excusing a bias, I will say I dont really hold it against him. I know very few elderly people who don't consciously or even subconsciously hold a few of the views that were understood during their younger years.

I didnt see the cat fight, I'll have to go prowl youtube later this evening.

dukemsu
03-15-2009, 08:01 PM
It appeared that Jay is tired of arguing with a guy who barely watches the games he is announcing, much less watching anyone else. Jay is a hoophead who has command of what's going on around the country. Vitale can't even cover the games he is assigned to. If it's that obvious to us, it is even more obvious to his fellow analysts. Jay could have come across better, but Vitale has become such a cartoon character (and Phelps is even worse) that it's difficult to take anything he says seriously.

dukemsu

KenTankerous
03-15-2009, 08:01 PM
Bobby Knight was asked a broad question about more "basketball" people being on the selection committee and answered, in-depth, that yes, the committee should be basketball people. He then went further to say that Men's basketball people watch Men's basketball and Women's watch the Women. He said those that watch the respective sport should be on those committee's.

So he didn't say that women shouldn't be on the men's committee, or vice versa. He said those that know should picks those that go.

brevity
03-15-2009, 08:11 PM
ESPN is still figuring out how best to utilize their many talking heads. I like Rece Davis, Jay Bilas, and Hubert Davis on the main studio stage. If they must have a fourth person there, Digger Phelps is okay, but it's a little awkward when he gets Memphis and Michigan State confused. The others don't know if they should correct him on the spot or not.

On days like this, Dick Vitale is good where he is: via satellite, speaking when spoken to. But I think they need to limit his commentary even more (I realize that in practice that's extremely difficult). But the big mistake ESPN made was having Bob Knight comment on the brackets as they were announced. He is by far their best asset, but providing instant analysis on generalities is not his strength. He'd be much better discussing specific matchups later tonight or in the upcoming days.

I'm surprised I'm saying this, but CBS figured it out this year. I don't know if Greg Anthony contributed much -- one or two of his sleeper picks made no sense -- but he was much better in the studio than Clark Kellogg has been.

Rogue
03-15-2009, 08:21 PM
We know the BCS schools, Duke included, will pay mid majors to come play them.. at OUR PLACE.. unc-ch will play on the road at a small mid major, at the mid majors home, ONLY if it's to get that game in front of the unc-ch players home fans. Duke is the same way,, maybe a neutral court, but we don't go play Creighton, Butler in their place.. We don't have to.. So Jay is correct, the big boys will play you, IF you come to our place.
Money talks.
Coach K's job is not to be fair and play Butler at Butler. It's to his own players,, get them some nice life experiences, travel and play where they can win. ( neutral courts )
So Dickie V is correct in a sense,, the BCS school will rarely put their arse on the line and play at the mid major. Dickie V wants the mid major to have a chance for their day in the sun. We all love Cinderella unless they're playing us.
Jay wants the best 64 teams and do away with the automatic bids.

Personally, I like that Binghamton gets it day in the sun against us. I hope it rains on them lol.

hurleyfor3
03-15-2009, 08:23 PM
If I worked with Dick Vitale I would constantly be pissed.


I would be deaf.

lmb
03-15-2009, 08:28 PM
While I didn't hear the Bilas/Vitale exchange, I did sense a lot of tension between Mike Patrick and Vitale while they "called" the game today. It was very noticeable that Patrick was getting a little tired of Vitale. Has everyone had their fill of Vitale? I know I have.

RainingThrees
03-15-2009, 08:32 PM
While I didn't hear the Bilas/Vitale exchange, I did sense a lot of tension between Mike Patrick and Vitale while they "called" the game today. It was very noticeable that Patrick was getting a little tired of Vitale. Has everyone had their fill of Vitale? I know I have.

The act is getting old. I think Packer leaving has put much of the analyst hatred on Vitale too.

Sgt. Dingleberry
03-15-2009, 08:46 PM
It was very noticeable that Patrick was getting a little tired of Vitale.

He was probably really hungover and couldn't get anything to drink because it was Sunday morning when he had to get to work...

Patrick seriously sounds like he drinks during games, his speech becomes slurred and he miscalls things frequently...

For whatever it's worth....I know a guy who delivered some furniture to Vitale at his house in FL. The guy is a happy go-lucky type of guy and starting hamming it up to Dicky V....Saying stuff like "Call a T-O Baby!", stuff like that....He said Vitale didn't even crack a smile, was not amused, walked out of the room and kind of came across as a jerk and definitely very different than his TV alterego....

Cameron
03-15-2009, 08:48 PM
I was commenting during the game today that I wondered how much longer it would be before ESPN does to Vitale what CBS did to Packer..

Vitale is a Hall-of-Famer, so I'm not sure if ESPN will get rid of him anytime soon, but you never know.

As for Bilas being smug? Really? Never would have noticed..

KenTankerous
03-15-2009, 09:08 PM
Dicky V needs to realize his full potential - as a charactuer voice-over cartoon announcer on a sports' themed episode of sponge bob square pants.

Don't get me wrong, I loved him as coach and when he first broke out calling games. But his shtick is old, like Bobcat Goldthwait, it just gets more annoying. And he really adds nothing anymore.

Sorry Dicky V. Retire. Or become a parody of yourself. How many of us have that choice? Good on ya!

But still retire.

Really

rthomas
03-15-2009, 09:13 PM
I agree. I like Coach Vitale, but he was not prepared to get into this argument with Jay Bilas. This was Mike Tyson vs. Michael Spinks.

Coach Vitale. lol. I don't even know what to say. Speechless. But I guess I can say. Don't call Dick Coach.

Wander
03-15-2009, 09:26 PM
Dickie V was completely right in this one. To be completely honest, I was a little bit embarrassed to call Bilas a Duke alum during those few minutes.

KrazyKfan
03-15-2009, 09:29 PM
Jay Bilas reads and posts on this board. If you disagree with him, say so - but don't type anything you would not actually say to the man's face. Internet courage is amusing.

If I saw Jay Bilas and Seth Davis today, I would call them traitors. Jay Bilas especially, because he played in a national championship as a player and won two as an assistant coach. Now, we have a great team that can beat everyone except UNC (ugh, I hate saying that) and we're not even going to get by Texas or Minnesota in Jay's eyes. Jay, I know you're trying to be objective, but when Hubert Davis think Duke is going to do better and Carolina do worse than you do, you're on the wrong side if it all.

Although was that a hint of loyalty when he asked what Hubert was smiling about? :)

365Duke
03-15-2009, 09:32 PM
I didnt see the cat fight, I'll have to go prowl youtube later this evening.

http://espn.go.com/

click on "debating the 65" video with dick v.'s pic

jipops
03-15-2009, 09:45 PM
While I didn't hear the Bilas/Vitale exchange, I did sense a lot of tension between Mike Patrick and Vitale while they "called" the game today. It was very noticeable that Patrick was getting a little tired of Vitale. Has everyone had their fill of Vitale? I know I have.

Seriously? I had my fill of Vitale back in the 80's. At this point I pretty much go numb when I hear his voice.

GoingFor#5
03-15-2009, 09:48 PM
I enjoy Vitale. He's fun and loves basketball. We have enough know-it-all PhD Hoopsologists that I'd rather watch a guy who is just having fun and showing heart. All the so-called hoop experts are like stock pickers anyways...not exactly the most accurate prognosticators.

jipops
03-15-2009, 09:48 PM
For whatever it's worth....I know a guy who delivered some furniture to Vitale at his house in FL. The guy is a happy go-lucky type of guy and starting hamming it up to Dicky V....Saying stuff like "Call a T-O Baby!", stuff like that....He said Vitale didn't even crack a smile, was not amused, walked out of the room and kind of came across as a jerk and definitely very different than his TV alterego....

I've heard many stories to the contrary that Vitale is a genuinely nice guy. I would think having some guy mock your shtick for the millionth time would be a bit annoying. However, I still think he's not very good at his job, or atleast what we would like his actual job to be.

JG Nothing
03-15-2009, 09:56 PM
http://espn.go.com/

click on "debating the 65" video with dick v.'s pic

Thanks for the link. After watching the exchange, I'm not sure what the big deal is. They had a disagreement that I would not even call heated. Bilas was not smug and Vitale's defensiveness towards the end was pretty mild. It's not like anyone raised their voice or walked off the set.

feldspar
03-15-2009, 09:57 PM
It appeared that Jay is tired of arguing with a guy who barely watches the games he is announcing, much less watching anyone else. Jay is a hoophead who has command of what's going on around the country. Vitale can't even cover the games he is assigned to. If it's that obvious to us, it is even more obvious to his fellow analysts. Jay could have come across better, but Vitale has become such a cartoon character (and Phelps is even worse) that it's difficult to take anything he says seriously.

dukemsu

Well, it's not just that. It's that Vitale goes with his heart and Jay goes with his head. Vitale, yes, is most times a loopy old man, but he really does love these kids who play the game, and it just breaks his heart to see teams like St. Mary's get their hearts broken.

I thought Doug Gottleib made Vitale's argument much better than Vitale did. Jay was wrong when he said St. Mary's didn't make an effort to go out and play good teams. They did make the effort, it just turns out that the teams they chose happened to have down years.

rthomas
03-15-2009, 10:00 PM
I enjoy Vitale. He's fun and loves basketball. We have enough know-it-all PhD Hoopsologists that I'd rather watch a guy who is just having fun and showing heart. All the so-called hoop experts are like stock pickers anyways...not exactly the most accurate prognosticators.


You must like the sound of finger nails scratching on the black board.

JG Nothing
03-15-2009, 10:06 PM
I think Knight did say something like that about women. If that's what he meant, hilarious. You could see the guys in studio not knowing how to react. Not quite sure of his point.

If I had to guess, I think he meant that these tournment committee people dont necessarily watch men;s basketball exclusively and are therefore not experts or qualified. Some watch women's, some men's, but none are experts. I think he was trying to say men's experts should pick men's brackets and women's experts should pick women's brackets.

Love the awkwardness on the PC espn network though!

I'm not sure why sexism is hilarious. The problem is not PC; it's grown adults not having the guts to tell a coddled anachronism that he is wrong and a jerk.

godukerocks
03-15-2009, 10:07 PM
You must like the sound of finger nails scratching on the black board.

If I heard Vitale for every game of the season, then that would definitly have a direct coorelation with fingernails on the black board. But spread out, I love listening to him.

dukemsu
03-15-2009, 10:09 PM
Well, it's not just that. It's that Vitale goes with his heart and Jay goes with his head. Vitale, yes, is most times a loopy old man, but he really does love these kids who play the game, and it just breaks his heart to see teams like St. Mary's get their hearts broken.

I thought Doug Gottleib made Vitale's argument much better than Vitale did. Jay was wrong when he said St. Mary's didn't make an effort to go out and play good teams. They did make the effort, it just turns out that the teams they chose happened to have down years.

I hear you, but this is along the lines of Vitale loving every coach, thinking no coach should ever get fired, every team should get in, on and on. I guess every analyst team needs a bleeding heart for the little guy, but I am so disgusted with Vitale's overall work that I have a hard time with his gushing love for everyone.

The guy used to actually be good. I watched an old IU/OSU game on one of the classic networks and couldn't believe my ears. He broke down zone presses vs. man presses. He wouldn't even think of doing that now, though he did recognize Duke playing zone today. I almost fell off my chair. The guy obviously does no game prep whatsoever and almost refuses to talk about the game that is actually going on in front of him.

dukemsu

rthomas
03-15-2009, 10:13 PM
At the very end of the ESPN video (linked above) Digger is stabbing his finger at Jay - Is that mocking Vitale? Or what?

feldspar
03-15-2009, 10:15 PM
I hear you, but this is along the lines of Vitale loving every coach, thinking no coach should ever get fired, every team should get in, on and on. I guess every analyst team needs a bleeding heart for the little guy, but I am so disgusted with Vitale's overall work that I have a hard time with his gushing love for everyone.

The guy used to actually be good. I watched an old IU/OSU game on one of the classic networks and couldn't believe my ears. He broke down zone presses vs. man presses. He wouldn't even think of doing that now, though he did recognize Duke playing zone today. I almost fell off my chair. The guy obviously does no game prep whatsoever and almost refuses to talk about the game that is actually going on in front of him.

dukemsu

Oh I agree. I think ultimately, Jay was right, but I can see where Vitale is coming from.

jipops
03-15-2009, 10:21 PM
I enjoy Vitale. He's fun and loves basketball. We have enough know-it-all PhD Hoopsologists that I'd rather watch a guy who is just having fun and showing heart. All the so-called hoop experts are like stock pickers anyways...not exactly the most accurate prognosticators.

Well if you want a guy that is having fun while providing in depth on the spot analysis then Bill Rafferty is your guy. Vitale provides ZERO analysis during games, even for necessary stats like how many fouls a key player has, etc...

This is the turn off that a majority of people have with Vitale.

grossbus
03-15-2009, 10:26 PM
This is the turn off that a majority of people have with Vitale.

right, he is a distraction and an annoying one at that.

jipops
03-15-2009, 10:30 PM
So I just watched this discussion via DVR of the game day show. Vitale's argument is kind of sad. His focus is just on sticking up for the little guy but fails to bring many viable facts past just being emotional about seeing smaller program out there. Jay has his counter points prepared and presents a more viable case. Digger validates a little further.I don't get this perception that Bilas is somehow arrogant. He has an opinion and he backs it up. Interesting how someone who has his opinions and speaks intelligently about them comes across as somehow smug and arrogant. Isn't that how many people feel about K and Duke?

The bubble argument talk is kind of ridiculous anyways. No system could ever be perfect. A playoff system in college football, while potentially better than the current system, would still have tons of controversy of far more of a magnitude than college basketball bubble talk.

mapei
03-15-2009, 10:37 PM
My take is that they both should have backed off and agreed to disagree. No need to try to make your counterpart to be a fool. To some extent they are probably aware that their function is to use disagreement to entertain, and pushed farther than they would have in real life. But, instead of being entertaining, it came off as mean-spirited.

As for Jay not having confidence in Duke, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to have confidence in Duke in the NCAA tournament based on the last few years. Those who did (like me) got their brackets busted early and repeatedly.

-jk
03-15-2009, 10:48 PM
As for Jay not having confidence in Duke, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to have confidence in Duke in the NCAA tournament based on the last few years. Those who did (like me) got their brackets busted early and repeatedly.

Me too. Over and over and over again.

But I don't regret it. Not once.

-jk

dukegirlinsc
03-15-2009, 11:02 PM
I enjoy Vitale. He's fun and loves basketball. We have enough know-it-all PhD Hoopsologists that I'd rather watch a guy who is just having fun and showing heart. All the so-called hoop experts are like stock pickers anyways...not exactly the most accurate prognosticators.

I agree with this. I can see how he can grind on people's nerves, but he doesn't bother me for the most part. He does genuinely love the game, and he's not always trying to make a point or prove someone wrong.

CameronBornAndBred
03-15-2009, 11:07 PM
Although was that a hint of loyalty when he asked what Hubert was smiling about? :)
And I loved Davis' response, I actually got a lot of respect for him at that moment. He said all the guys were doing is throwing out numbers. (they were talking about Duke losing early in NCAA last time they won ACC and UNC winnng it all after they exited) He then said those stats don't mean a damn thing, so don't bother with them.

dukegirlinsc
03-15-2009, 11:21 PM
And I loved Davis' response, I actually got a lot of respect for him at that moment. He said all the guys were doing is throwing out numbers. (they were talking about Duke losing early in NCAA last time they won ACC and UNC winnng it all after they exited) He then said those stats don't mean a damn thing, so don't bother with them.

Exactly. Duke hasn't performed well in the past few years, what does that have to do with this year? This years tournament is more wide open than it's been in a long time, in my opinion. This team is a lot different than the team of the past few years. It's good to see Hubert throwing out good points every now and then. :rolleyes:

mcdukie
03-16-2009, 12:50 AM
I am usually a Vitale fan but he seemed lost, almost out of touch. If Davidson can find some big boys to play than don't tell me that St. Mary's couldn't find some. Also, Knight says some stuff that makes no sense, like there is no advantage to being a 1 seed.

Kimist
03-16-2009, 01:04 AM
At least in the Triangle area, we did not have to endure Vitale and friends.

Actually, it was quite pleasant having G-man do the commentary! :)

k

-bdbd
03-16-2009, 01:26 AM
First I like both men, for different reasons. Obviously Dick has a treemendous love for the game, clearly his heart is in the right place, and he has had a lot to do with the growth in following/exposure of the NCAAT through the 80's and 90's. Jay is, I believe, one of the most factual, knowledgeable, and best overall analysts ESPN has (even if he does bend over backwards - and then some - to prove he's not pro-Duke...)

They've had this argumant before, albeit more civil, subtle. Clearly Dick has a chip on his shoulder pulling for the little guys. I have no problem with that, as it is consistent with his "love of the game, big heart" personna and background. Jay is cold and factual. I really don't think Jay "pulls" for the majors; he just didn't believe, factually, that St. Mary's deserved to get in (nor did Digger obviously). There's nothing "smug" in making a fact-based argument. At all. But at no point did he say anything that sounded at all "smug" to me. The fact that he wouldn't allow Dick, bless his heart, to talk over him and drown out his argument -- well that was simply the right thing to do.

Understand, I LIKE St. Mary's. I grew up mostly in the Bay Area and knew people who went there. I'd have LOVED to have seen them make it. (Conversely I'm NOT a fan of Arizona's for a couple of unrelated reasons.) But in this circumstance, I thought Jay made the more compelling (AZ-over-St Mary's) argument. At least Dick came back, a little while later, and was smart enough to say if effect, "While maybe not St. Mary's, I still think it isn't a level playing field...and the Mid-Major's can't get home-and-homes - which would be FAIR - with the big boys." That said, there's no doubt that St Mary's and others CAN still beef up their schedules, and simply chose not to. To me the culprit screwing those kids there is not the NCAA, or Arizona -- it's their own Head Coach and Ath. Director who didn't schedule what was necessary to get them into the tournament.

-BDBD :o

jma4life
03-16-2009, 01:30 AM
Seriously, what was Digger doing with his finger. Really weird.

devildownunder
03-16-2009, 07:59 AM
I am usually a Vitale fan but he seemed lost, almost out of touch. If Davidson can find some big boys to play than don't tell me that St. Mary's couldn't find some. Also, Knight says some stuff that makes no sense, like there is no advantage to being a 1 seed.

There is an advantage to being a 1 seed, as opposed to a 3, imo. Not so much from 1 to 2. I think if you are seeded on either of the top 2 lines, You stand an outstanding chance of getting two overmatched opponents on your way to the sweet 16. As a 3, you stand a good chance of getting someone who can legitimately play with you in the first round -- and in the 2nd round, it's almost a certainty.

But back to Knight, I think his point basically was that he'd rather not have the target that comes with being a 1. There is some logic to that -- unless you're Duke and will be everyone's fave team to beat anyway.

devildownunder
03-16-2009, 08:04 AM
That said, there's no doubt that St Mary's and others CAN still beef up their schedules, and simply chose not to. To me the culprit screwing those kids there is not the NCAA, or Arizona -- it's their own Head Coach and Ath. Director who didn't schedule what was necessary to get them into the tournament.

-BDBD :o

Particularly since they had every reason to believe, all the way back to 2 seasons ago, that they would be pretty good this year.

Lavabe
03-16-2009, 08:36 AM
Seriously, what was Digger doing with his finger. Really weird.

It WAS weird. I thought he was doing his little dance from the Gameday commercials.

The ONLY thing somewhat smug from Jay was an early eye/facial gesture (about one minute in), but other than that, I felt that Jay was trying to reign in Dickie V from taking too much time in the segment. Good for Jay. I wish he had had a calm counterpart presenting the St. Mary's perspective ... ooh, like a representative from the school. THAT would have been more compelling than Dickie V, in this venue.

Don't get me wrong. I like Dickie V, so long as he isn't calling a game (witness some of the absurd banter between DV and Patrick the other day). In doses, I like him, and what he does for basketball. He's the anti-curmudgeon. I just wish that he had tried to discuss things as per the guidelines Jay seemed to enforce. I'd like DV to bring out his knowledge when in a discussion like this one.

The "attend Duke" comment was out of place. It had nothing to do with the discussion.

I felt like the mods should have given DV a warning.;)
Cheers,
Lavabe

blueprofessor
03-16-2009, 08:43 AM
many in the audience and, as an anxious to please and ambitious person, tilts against Duke, it is Digger who is the authentic passive-aggressive Duke-hater.
Last night, Digger was simply aggressively anti-Duke.Nothing passive about his personality disorder.:D

Bilas and Vitale both were too hot for the medium in their contretemps.
At times, Bilas was hectoring Vitale, knowing full well that V is not as popular as he was.

Each had some good points and each diverted attention from those arguments by his manner of presentation.:(

Best---Blue:)professor

Jay Bilas: " If I had not gone to school there, I'd hate Duke ,too."

SMO
03-16-2009, 08:44 AM
Glad to see that you guys worship at the Altar of Jay like he worships at the Altar of UNC now.

Huh? I've criticized Bilas several times on this board, probably much more than I've praised him. Vitale had a bad argument and couldn't support it with facts like Digger and Jay did, then he got frustrated and acted childish.

Lid
03-16-2009, 09:16 AM
I'm not sure why sexism is hilarious. The problem is not PC; it's grown adults not having the guts to tell a coddled anachronism that he is wrong and a jerk.
Agree totally. I couldn't believe they spent so long dissecting every single comment about whether St. Mary's had sufficient opportunity to prove themselves, yet Knight made an outrageous statement like that and the response was... nothing. Even if he misspoke, someone should have asked him to clarify. My husband and I just sat there and stared at each other when he said that.

GoingFor#5
03-16-2009, 09:24 AM
Vitale made a better argument on SC today. He said Patty Mills is back? Is that correct? They only lost 2 games with Mills, then went 6-4 without him, costing them the bid. If he is back, I believe they deserve a bid given how good they were with him. Arizona lost 13 and the Pac 10 isn't all that great.

slower
03-16-2009, 09:27 AM
Agree totally. I couldn't believe they spent so long dissecting every single comment about whether St. Mary's had sufficient opportunity to prove themselves, yet Knight made an outrageous statement like that and the response was... nothing. Even if he misspoke, someone should have asked him to clarify. My husband and I just sat there and stared at each other when he said that.

If Bob Knight is inevitable, just relax and enjoy it.

JBDuke
03-16-2009, 09:28 AM
Vitale made a better argument on SC today. He said Patty Mills is back? Is that correct? They only lost 2 games with Mills, then went 6-4 without him, costing them the bid. If he is back, I believe they deserve a bid given how good they were with him. Arizona lost 13 and the Pac 10 isn't all that great.

Mills is back, but he played horribly in the WCC tourney, and St. Mary's made an early exit. He did play better in the "extra" game that St. Mary's added post-tourney, but the committee could have legitimate doubts about his ability to return to the team and return them to their previous level of performance.

Highlander
03-16-2009, 09:34 AM
his comment to Dick about 'Maybe 30 years ago, mid majors couldn't schedule games against the big guys, but they can today' was a bit harsh, and probably caused Dick to get defensive and retort with the 'I didn't go to Duke' comment. Both were a bit petty, and really unnecessary IMO.

Jay and Dick both had reasonable arguments. When they started making petty cracks at each other rather than make their argument is when it became unnecessary in my mind.

The Gordog
03-16-2009, 10:07 AM
his comment to Dick about 'Maybe 30 years ago, mid majors couldn't schedule games against the big guys, but they can today' was a bit harsh, and probably caused Dick to get defensive and retort with the 'I didn't go to Duke' comment. Both were a bit petty, and really unnecessary IMO.

Jay and Dick both had reasonable arguments. When they started making petty cracks at each other rather than make their argument is when it became unnecessary in my mind.

Agreed. Jay also said, "You're wrong!" a couple of times. Granted Dick wouldn't stop talking and I'm sure thatwas frustrating, but I think it comes across as smug. Sadly, I'm a person who says that on occasision as well, and my mild-mannered wife has told me it undermines my persuasiveness and comes across as smug.

weezie
03-16-2009, 11:00 AM
I think that by the time the argument took place, just about everybody on that network was about to collapse from the strain of studying "bracketology."
Today they are all likely on iv fluids and resting with towels draped over their foreheads.
Enough already.

DBFAN
03-16-2009, 11:49 AM
My Problem with Jay on this argument is he is making a case for St. Mary's not getting in because of the hurt player..................What, are you kidding me? Then how come teams like UCON and UNC did not get lower seeds with Dyson being done for the year, and Lawson having so many questions surrounding him and his toe. There is no way Arizona belongs in this tournament, VT 7-9 record in the toughest conference is a lot better that 9-9 in a very weak conf. like the Pac-10. I just feel like Jay is trying to defend something that is not Defensible, 28-6 should get you in, even if your are from BFE Community college. I mean I don't really care, because having lesser opponents in the dance, only benefits us on our road to the championship!

dgoore97
03-16-2009, 11:50 AM
finally saw this argument. doesn't seem that bad to me. i don't think anyone was particularly rude and i don't have a problem with someone telling someone else they're wrong. it seemed like they were having a genuine disagreement. i think this discussion was vastly preferable to watching analysts tiptoe around each other with nobody wanting to disagree with anyone else, which seems to happen in the majority of these broadcasts.

jdj4duke
03-16-2009, 12:12 PM
Well at least that will be the end of Vitale fawning over Duke (one can hope). We may be seeing the beginning of the end of Dickie's endless screentime. There was nothing wrong, rude, or off-base from Bilas, especially considering that Vitale was screeching like a weedeater. And the Duke comment was stupid. Regardless of undergraduate pedigree (but I like to think it means something) Bilas' degree of knowledge and analysis are embarrassing to Vitale's. On that there really is no argument.

I do take comfort in the fact that the yammering about "who got left out" ends pretty much by 8:00 pm on selection Sunday. It's a waste of time and is interesting for the 30 seconds it takes to hear mostly about teams we have, for the most part, never seen.

killerleft
03-16-2009, 12:27 PM
Dickie V was completely right in this one. To be completely honest, I was a little bit embarrassed to call Bilas a Duke alum during those few minutes.

Sorry, Wander. Picked your post out because it happened to crystallize a point of view. After seeing the video finally, I can see Dick's point. Which is to give more of the little fellas a spot in the tourney field. Beyond that, he loses me. I doubt that St. Mary's is better than Arizona. Certainly they could beat them on a given night.

But where I really lose you and others is the thought that Jay Bilas misbehaved in some way. I didn't find him smug and I didn't think he was condescending to Dickie V. He represented all those who disagree with the inclusion of less qualified teams simply because they did well on a smaller stage.

These mid-majors CHOOSE to be considered at the same level as the big boys. Then they (or Dickie V. or another talking head) forget what they chose to do. Why should they be surprised when a committee of people who take their job seriously hold them to the same standard as the big boys? There are DIFFERENT LEVELS in which they can compete!

And then the little guys make the champion of their league the one that WON their conference tournament. Fine. But they are throwing the dice and chancing that their best teams might not be invited to the dance.

My conclusion? Don't run with the big dogs if you don't play against them. And I still don't see how Jay Bilas came off badly, though. He tried to reason with Dickie V, but Dickie was ranting and didn't want to hear.

jjasper0729
03-16-2009, 12:43 PM
i think it came out when Jay said this should be a meritocracy and DV said he wanted to be fair.

unfortunately, (this may be un-pc, but i don't really care) the two aren't always the same thing (usually aren't ever)

jlear
03-16-2009, 12:43 PM
I just watched the video, I was ready for the fireworks and then nothing. This was a big so what for me.

Wander
03-16-2009, 12:48 PM
Killerleft, my issue is actually more with his entire performance recently, not just the Dickie V argument.

I don't know if you watched Gameday yesterday before the Duke game, but it was disgusting. The guys were essentially opening cheering for Arizona for a full half hour. Now, I'm actually fine with putting Arizona in the field over Creighton, but the discussion they had was absolutely nowhere close to fair or reasonable. Just continuous cheering for Arizona and trash talking of Creighton, over and over and over. They had Arizona's coach on to state his case - do you think they invited Creighton's on the show as well? (to his credit, UA's coach was very rational). I'm 95% sure I even caught a part where one of the guys blatantly got one of Creighton's statistics wrong (in a direction that made Creighton look worse), and it was never corrected. It was completely embarrassing.

I also remember Bilas actually bragging during a game recently that he would have easily been Ivy League Player of the Year. That's the exact type of condescending attitude that we don't need.

TheTrain
03-16-2009, 12:52 PM
Dickie V was dead on here siding with St. Mary's versus Arizona

Bottom line: Arizona won 2 true road games all year at Oregon and at Oregon State, the PAC-10 is way down this year and .500 in the Pac-10 this year is lame, 13 losses is poor as well

Please don't give me the line that mid-majors can schedule who they want...that is garbage.....Davidson got a lot of games this year because ESPN wanted to showcase Curry thinking it would bring increased ratings...Gonzaga has the same ratings appeal because of their post-season history....for those mid-moajors that don't have ratings appeal, it is nearly impossible to get on the schedule....most teams (not all but most) in the power conferences run from playing such teams

Maybe instead of boring us with yet another Big 10/ACC snoozefest, we can have David versus Goliath showdowns...have 8 high profile teams go on the road for nationally televised games against mid-majors. I am sure that ESPN could market the heck out of it.

dukie8
03-16-2009, 01:06 PM
Dickie V was dead on here siding with St. Mary's versus Arizona

Bottom line: Arizona won 2 true road games all year at Oregon and at Oregon State, the PAC-10 is way down this year and .500 in the Pac-10 this year is lame, 13 losses is poor as well

Please don't give me the line that mid-majors can schedule who they want...that is garbage.....Davidson got a lot of games this year because ESPN wanted to showcase Curry thinking it would bring increased ratings...Gonzaga has the same ratings appeal because of their post-season history....for those mid-moajors that don't have ratings appeal, it is nearly impossible to get on the schedule....most teams (not all but most) in the power conferences run from playing such teams

Maybe instead of boring us with yet another Big 10/ACC snoozefest, we can have David versus Goliath showdowns...have 8 high profile teams go on the road for nationally televised games against mid-majors. I am sure that ESPN could market the heck out of it.

What part of St Mary's not being anywhere near as good as they were when Mills was 100% do you not understand? Had he not gotten hurt, St Mary's would easily have been in the field. Unfortunately, he did get hurt and St Mary's with a less than 100% Mills is not even close to being one of the top 34 teams.

2 seasons ago (as in before Curry was a national celeb), Davidson scheduled the following games:

Duke
UNC
NC St
UCLA

So your belief that the only reason Davidson was able to schedule games against BCS schools was that ESPN wanted the games this year just doesn't hold water -- they were able to do it 2 seasons ago as well. Just in case you think that 2 seasons ago was an aberration, Davidson got the following BCS teams to play them 3 seasons ago:

Duke
Missouri
Michigan
Arizona St

The bottom line is that BCS school will play the mid-majors -- it may be only at the BCS school's home court or at a neutral site, but it's very possible. St Mary's chose not to schedule the games and paid the price. It's also not like the team came out of nowhere this year. They were very good last year and the coach knew full well last summer when he was putting together the schedule that he had an even better team this year. Shame on him.

4decadedukie
03-16-2009, 01:21 PM
I watched the Bilas (University of Arizona) versus Vitale (Saint Mary's) discussion live (and then reviewed it on TiVo a couple times). Both positions have some legitimacy, but -- and I hope Jay reads this -- he would enhance his image of prudent analyses combined with personal graciousness were he to be somewhat more charitable in the ways in which he disagrees. Civility can never be overdone, and my abiding impression -- as my mother frequently suggested to me 50+ years ago -- was "it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

SMO
03-16-2009, 01:28 PM
I had no idea what St. Mary's schedule looked like so I just took a peek. They don't have a signature game out of conference, let along a signature win! Providence does not count in my mind. At a glance, their only strong competition in games was Gonzaga, and they lost both of those.

Arizona, on the other hand, scheduled both Gonzaga and Kansas and won both! They did have some dubious losses, but I just don't see the cause for outrage over this one.

TheTrain
03-16-2009, 01:46 PM
St. Mary's defeated then #23 ranked Utah State

Wander
03-16-2009, 01:50 PM
I just don't see the cause for outrage over this one.

The outrage is NOT about Arizona being in over St. Mary's or Creighton. The outrage is over the guys on ESPN openly campaigning for Arizona for an extended period of time, not having anywhere near a fair conversation about it, and acting like Arizona is such an obvious choice that there's no room at all for discussion.

blueprofessor
03-16-2009, 02:10 PM
I also remember Bilas actually bragging during a game recently that he would have easily been Ivy League Player of the Year. That's the exact type of condescending attitude that we don't need.

In 2006 minutes, Newton had 7.6 ppg at 56.9%; 61 % from line;5.1 rpg ; 48 assists;118 TOs; 233 fouls;68 steals; and 101 blocks.

In 2864 minutes,Bilas had 8.4 ppg at 55.7%; 65% from line;5.4 rpg;56 assists; 117 TOs; 379 fouls; 41 steals;and 23 blocks.
So, Jay had 858 more minutes ( 42% of Newton's total minutes) and had virtually the same number of assists, 146 more fouls, 27 less steals,and 23% of Newton's blocks.
In terms of play per minutes, Jay had an assist every 51 minutes, a foul every 7.5 minutes, a steal every 70 minutes,and a block every 124 minutes.

Newton had a rebound every 3.65 minutes and Jay had a rebound every 4.2 minutes.

Best--Blueprof:)

SMO
03-16-2009, 02:17 PM
The outrage is NOT about Arizona being in over St. Mary's or Creighton. The outrage is over the guys on ESPN openly campaigning for Arizona for an extended period of time, not having anywhere near a fair conversation about it, and acting like Arizona is such an obvious choice that there's no room at all for discussion.

To clarify, I was referring to Vitale's outrage. I didn't see the campaigning but will take your word for it. It's not appropriate for those guys to try to influence the committee unduly.

jdj4duke
03-16-2009, 02:17 PM
The outrage is NOT about Arizona being in over St. Mary's or Creighton. The outrage is over the guys on ESPN openly campaigning for Arizona for an extended period of time, not having anywhere near a fair conversation about it, and acting like Arizona is such an obvious choice that there's no room at all for discussion.


Vitale destroyed any semblance of a "discussion". He blathered, would not let anyone else make a point, ridiculously "played the Duke card" and finally just acted like a petulant and wounded sourpuss. Poor Dickie allowed almost no give and take, which is the basis for a discussion. Had DV not been on an impossibly high soap box, there might have been some dialogue and reasonable conclusion, as there generally is during these little bromides by the chattering heads. Dickie's continuous blather sounded more like a drunken barroom discussion than a cogent discussion of an alternative position. I venture to say that if you encountered behavior similar to Dick's at a party, you would wander away muttering what a buffoon the guy was.

This little teacup must certainly be full by now-

SMO
03-16-2009, 02:20 PM
St. Mary's defeated then #23 ranked Utah State

OK, so they beat a team that earned an 11 seed. That's not bad. Has anyone provided the side-by-side computer numbers on St. Mary's vs. Arizona?

For what it's worth, St. Mary's isn't even a 1 seed in the NIT

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3983521

Indoor66
03-16-2009, 02:30 PM
Does anybody really care?

Wander
03-16-2009, 02:36 PM
To clarify, I was referring to Vitale's outrage. I didn't see the campaigning but will take your word for it. It's not appropriate for those guys to try to influence the committee unduly.

Gotcha. I see where you guys are coming from too, some of V's comments were just stupid and childish and certainly didn't help his cause.

When Jay Bilas says that major teams are treated unfairly compared to mid-majors - well, that's a statement that he deserves to be called out on because it's simply an absolutely stupid and laughable statement to the nth degree. But you're right, you can call it out without the "you went to Duke" type comments.

weezie
03-16-2009, 02:41 PM
Does anybody really care?

Seconded. Why is everybody in such a lather over this? I would imagine DV and Jay aren't. It all makes for mildly entertaining tv, and I stress the mildly.

Let's get ready to rumble...put this "baby" to bed.

blueprofessor
03-16-2009, 04:59 PM
Seconded. Why is everybody in such a lather over this? I would imagine DV and Jay aren't. It all makes for mildly entertaining tv, and I stress the mildly.

Let's get ready to rumble...put this "baby" to bed.

The shakes before the battle!

Best--Blueprof:)

Lid
03-16-2009, 05:11 PM
If Bob Knight is inevitable, just relax and enjoy it.

Excellent point. I had somehow (miraculously) forgotten about that.

Virginian
03-16-2009, 05:32 PM
I saw the "argument." Look, these shows usually like a little back and forth. If anything, this show is usually too bland with everyone agreeing on everything. So Jay and Dick went at it a bit. It was nothing. I'm sure they don't think anything of it. Why should we?

And as for the argument, I think both had reasonable points. Look if there hadn't been 3 or more tourney upsets, with unexpected teams taking up those at large bids, St. Mary's would have been in. Arguing fiercely over the very last team cut really doesn't make much sense, does it? It's just academic and for show. I kind of enjoyed it.

brevity
03-16-2009, 05:52 PM
Does anybody really care?

Unfortunately, yes. Dick Vitale was regurgitating his comments on Mike & Mike this morning, as if he's been assigned to lobby for mid-major schools. He's sort of the anti-Billy Packer in this regard, carrying the banner for the opposite cause, but just as much a drag on the real proceedings.

But here's the problem. I think spending most of Selection Sunday arguing about snubs is a massive waste of time. You devote a segment to the snubs, throw up a few graphics, and then let it go. Any criticism is better spent on how teams were seeded, and how the Committee's standards are seemingly random. And then the meat of the discussion should discuss actual matchups, possible sleepers, and pundit picks.

BD80
03-16-2009, 07:24 PM
Jay Bilas reads and posts on this board. If you disagree with him, say so - but don't type anything you would not actually say to the man's face. Internet courage is amusing.

I SERIOUSLY doubt that Jay has spent much time the last couple of weeks reading these boards. Jay has been doing game broadcasts in addition to "College Gameday" and "College Basketball Report" shows, and "interview" spots on Sportscenter, First and Ten, Mike & Mike, PTI and others. Jay also puts a lot of time into his preparation - I would argue he is the best prepared analyst in the business.

ESPN has been riding its college analysts really hard. Didn't Jay do the game broadcasts for Big East tourney that had the 6 OT game as the FOURTH game of the day that ran past 1:00 AM? He then had to do the College Basketball report AFTER that and then did the morning show appearances the next day. Poor Doug Gottlieb slept in the studio that night to host the morning Mike & Mike a few hours after signing off.

I think the exhaustion had a bit to do with Jay's reaction to hearing Dickie V's rather tired argument that mid-majors can't get games. It is true that they can't get good HOME games, and that it isn't fair. It is more profitable to beat a bad team at home, so mid-major AD's are not that thrilled to pay for travel expenses instead of selling tickets and concessions and keeping the student athletes in school.

Vitale couldn't get past the unfairness of the commercial reality and missed Jay's basic point: knowing the reality of scheduling, St Mary's could have scheduled more difficult games.


...
I also remember Bilas actually bragging during a game recently that he would have easily been Ivy League Player of the Year. That's the exact type of condescending attitude that we don't need.

I didn't see the reference, but would suggest that Jay was actually being somewhat self-effacing, suggesting that he was a Ivy league caliber player when he was actually an important part of a very good team on a national level. He was a major recruit out of high school. The comparisons to Greg Newton are ludicrous, particularly as little as Jay touched the ball with Alarie and Dawkins on the team.

tendev
03-16-2009, 07:45 PM
For a moment I thought I was watching a political talk show where that kind of heated exchange goes on all the time. I think Vitale took offense when Bilas replied 'that was 30 years ago" to Vitale's point that he [Vitale] never was able to schedule the majors. Anyway, this is a point the Vitale makes every year and I think that Bilas was right that the mid-majors can schedule the power conference teams easily today. Just ask Davidson. Vitale's counterpoint is that while they can schedule them the power conference team will only play on its home court. And Bilas' reply to that is so what?

blueprofessor
03-16-2009, 08:12 PM
The comparisons to Greg Newton are ludicrous, particularly as little as Jay touched the ball with Alarie and Dawkins on the team.

While you may disagree, production per minute or game is a valid measure of worth and is a mighty fine gauge of the quality of a person's play,especially since there are only 5 players on a team.
And, it is what you do in college,not high school, that is the measure of value to a college team.
In college,whether or not you want to accept the official records,the taller Newton's stats were as good (and much better in some athletic measurements like steals,assists, rebounds, and blocks ) as Jay's.That does not diminish Bilas's talent as an analyst--it simply places in context his athletic performance on the court compared to Newton's.

And the fact that Jay took a shot every 4 minutes along with 511 foul shots(many for shots attempted but not included in the one per 4 minutes)indicates that he was indeed touching the ball a good deal.

I do admire your taking the time to interpret Jay's strong remarks (about easily being the POY in the Ivy League) and to suggest that fatigue was the cause of his treatment of the considerably older Vitale.You must be a very close and devoted friend.
Jay is a very clever and careful fellow whose commentary usually adds value.

Perhaps we can all agree that we hope he will be as dead wrong about Duke's play in the tourney as he has about his picks in Duke's games this season.:)

Best--Blueprof:)

Papa John
03-16-2009, 08:59 PM
Vitale's counterpoint is that while they can schedule them the power conference team will only play on its home court. And Bilas' reply to that is so what?

And Bilas' reply doesn't work, because this is the root of the issue... The power conferences will only play the small conferences under favorable circumstances, where they have higher odds of winning, so the teams from smaller conference, if they want to enhance the SOS ratings, have a high probability of saddling themselves with additional losses... They can't win for trying either way--that's the point! I schedule tough teams and lose, but have high SOS--tough, I don't get an at-large because I'm from a small conference... I don't schedule a lot of tough teams and win most of my games with low SOS--tough again, I don't get an at-large... Bilas' argument blows in the era of the 64-team tournament... If you think Arizona deserves to be in ahead of Saint Mary's, then I've got a bridge to sell ya...

cwiley
03-16-2009, 09:25 PM
The context of Bilas' argument is this: the NCAA is already the most open to the mid and low major through all of the automatic bids. What we're talking about are teams that have an argument about being in the tournament, but failed to win their respective conference tournaments. The 64 team field already invites many teams that are not the best in the land through the automatic bids. What we're talking about is a handful of teams who are good, but fail to win the automatic bid.

Bilas is saying: you want to be in the tournament. Here's what you do. You schedule high major schools on their turf. Win or at least play them tough. Then try to win your conference. If you get the auto bid, then you're in. But if you lose that auto bid, you better have a compelling backup argument. But there are already a bunch of schools like you that made the tournament.

If the field was just the best 64, there wouldn't be any more non-BCS conference schools in the field.

dukie8
03-16-2009, 09:28 PM
And Bilas' reply doesn't work, because this is the root of the issue... The power conferences will only play the small conferences under favorable circumstances, where they have higher odds of winning, so the teams from smaller conference, if they want to enhance the SOS ratings, have a high probability of saddling themselves with additional losses... They can't win for trying either way--that's the point! I schedule tough teams and lose, but have high SOS--tough, I don't get an at-large because I'm from a small conference... I don't schedule a lot of tough teams and win most of my games with low SOS--tough again, I don't get an at-large... Bilas' argument blows in the era of the 64-team tournament... If you think Arizona deserves to be in ahead of Saint Mary's, then I've got a bridge to sell ya...

This is complete poppycock. If you are a mid-major and want to play in the NCAAT, you either have to (1) win your conference tournament (eg, Siena); (2) win most your conference games and don't embarrass yourself in your conference tournament (eg, Butler and not Creighton) or (3) win most of your conference games and take out a BCS school or 2 in your OOC schedule and not worry about your conference tournament (eg, Gonzaga or Dayton). If you don't want to play a mediocre or good BCS school on its home court, then here are plenty of garbage tournaments in November and December that you can get them on neutral courts. Remember Southern Illinois this year at MSG? Probably not, but it had its shot at Duke on a neutral court this year (and lost). Dayton, Gonzaga, Tulsa, Memphis and Davidson all got solid games against BCS schools this way. St Mary's did not so stop feeling sorry for them.

You make it sound like this is so horrible. Cleveland St won AT Syracuse, VMI won AT Kentucky and Morgan St won AT Maryland so it's not like this is some impossible feat we are talking about here.

A lot of this whining could be eliminated if the lower conferences just sent their regular season champions to the NCAAT rather than the winner of a conference tournament. Based on what I saw the past 2 weeks, a lot of these tournaments are very poorly attended and often don't send the most deserving team (eg, Davidson). This wouldn't have helped St Mary's this year.

weezie
03-16-2009, 09:55 PM
Cleveland St won AT Syracuse

Gotta love the Cleveland State Viking! Those guys are ballers, should be fun to watch that game against wfu. At least for a few minutes.

BD80
03-17-2009, 12:43 AM
In 2006 minutes, Newton had 7.6 ppg at 56.9%; 61 % from line;5.1 rpg ; 48 assists;118 TOs; 233 fouls;68 steals; and 101 blocks.

In 2864 minutes,Bilas had 8.4 ppg at 55.7%; 65% from line;5.4 rpg;56 assists; 117 TOs; 379 fouls; 41 steals;and 23 blocks.
So, Jay had 858 more minutes ( 42% of Newton's total minutes) and had virtually the same number of assists, 146 more fouls, 27 less steals,and 23% of Newton's blocks.
In terms of play per minutes, Jay had an assist every 51 minutes, a foul every 7.5 minutes, a steal every 70 minutes,and a block every 124 minutes.

Newton had a rebound every 3.65 minutes and Jay had a rebound every 4.2 minutes.

Best--Blueprof:)


While you may disagree, production per minute or game is a valid measure of worth and is a mighty fine gauge of the quality of a person's play,especially since there are only 5 players on a team.
...

Perhaps we can all agree that we hope he will be as dead wrong about Duke's play in the tourney as he has about his picks in Duke's games this season.:)

Best--Blueprof:)

I am certain that virtually every person associated with the Blue Devils basketball team would disagree that the numbers reflect the true value of a player such as Bilas. He was an undersized center that did many things that didn't make onto a stat sheet except in the win column.

Bilas played on GREAT teams, improving from 11-17 their freshman year to 24-10, then 23-8, and finally 37-3 and a loss in the '86 championship game. Bilas played with Dawkins, Alarie, Henderson, Amaker, and King. Jay suffered an injury in 1986 and lost his starting job to some freshman named Ferry.

Newton played little his first 2 years when the teams went 28-6 (NCAA final game) and 13-18. Newt played most on the 18-13 team with Capel, Collins, Price, and young Wojo and Domzalski. He played less on the 24-9 team the next year when Langdon came back and McLeod and Carrawell climbed onboard.

I don't think the raw numbers reflect Bilas' "worth" as a basketball player, particularly compared to Greg Newton (who admittedly still did not receive the recognition he deserved for his contributions). Else, Billy King was of little "worth": In 2823 minutes, King had 4.5 ppg at 50.4%; 48% from line; 2.9 rpg; 251 assists; 180 TOs; 292 fouls; 140 steals; and 45 blocks. Billy disproves your thesis that numerical production per minute gauges the quality of play. Jay's qualities were similarly unquantifiable.

We can definitely agree that we hope Jay's predictions are wrong. I don't blame him for picking unc to win it all. If I could be objective, I might pick them as well. I don't think I can forgive Jay for picking Jay Wright's Villanova team to beat us in the round of 16. Maybe it is a Jay thing.

Lulu
03-17-2009, 02:12 AM
Well if you read the board before watching the clip you were probably disappointed. Fortunately, I saw it live.

The way I would have described it was uncomfortable. It rose a little above debate to a flat-out argument. And call me crazy, but I thought BOTH came across a little bad. Jay should have tried to just laugh it off. Actually, he might have tried, but just didn't quite pass it off. He probably wouldn't have looked smug if he wasn't from Duke, but he started to just disregard Vitale and that comes across as smug and disrespectful when everyone knows you're from Duke (especially when recently reminded). He also seemed a little too irritated at being called "wrong". Don't think we've seen Jay like that before, at least I haven't.

As someone else said, Vitale mostly looked childish. It wasn't too far from what you might expect from him though. For whatever reason both seemed to take it personally, like one was called "stupid" and the other "wrong" and for both it was the worst you could say about them.

I did just rewatch it, and there was definitely some history coming in. You hear Bilas start to laugh on his mic while Vitale is first making his point, before Jay's even had his turn, and you can just tell they've already been arguing, if not already irritated with each other.

I'd love to know what Digger was doing with the pointing gesture; it was pretty demonstrative and Jay just looks past it or ignores it (perhaps he's simply aware he's still on camera while Digger is not), or, Digger was pointing at someone off camera? I can't tell if he's mocking Vitale or telling Jay he put the hammer down, or some other inside joke or whatever altogether, but he seems to feel pretty strongly about it whatever it is.

blueprofessor
03-17-2009, 08:49 AM
I am certain that virtually every person associated with the Blue Devils basketball team would disagree that the numbers reflect the true value of a player such as Bilas. He was an undersized center that did many things that didn't make onto a stat sheet except in the win column.

Bilas played on GREAT teams, improving from 11-17 their freshman year to 24-10, then 23-8, and finally 37-3 and a loss in the '86 championship game. Bilas played with Dawkins, Alarie, Henderson, Amaker, and King. Jay suffered an injury in 1986 and lost his starting job to some freshman named Ferry.

Newton played little his first 2 years when the teams went 28-6 (NCAA final game) and 13-18. Newt played most on the 18-13 team with Capel, Collins, Price, and young Wojo and Domzalski. He played less on the 24-9 team the next year when Langdon came back and McLeod and Carrawell climbed onboard.

I don't think the raw numbers reflect Bilas' "worth" as a basketball player, particularly compared to Greg Newton (who admittedly still did not receive the recognition he deserved for his contributions). Else, Billy King was of little "worth": In 2823 minutes, King had 4.5 ppg at 50.4%; 48% from line; 2.9 rpg; 251 assists; 180 TOs; 292 fouls; 140 steals; and 45 blocks. Billy disproves your thesis that numerical production per minute gauges the quality of play. Jay's qualities were similarly unquantifiable.

We can definitely agree that we hope Jay's predictions are wrong. I don't blame him for picking unc to win it all. If I could be objective, I might pick them as well. I don't think I can forgive Jay for picking Jay Wright's Villanova team to beat us in the round of 16. Maybe it is a Jay thing.

...I enjoyed your comments.What the numbers (and my memory) certainly do tell is that Jay was very limited, unathletic, and not well-skilled (assisists, blocks, and steals).He was 6'8" but very bulky, similar to a number of centers today.Bilas was all we had until a freshman name Ferry appeared Bilas's senior year.

King shot half as much as Bilas and took half as many foul shots (indicating he was not shooting much beyond his official attempts).He was a defensive stopper and was NDPOY. His assists (251) and steals(140),in a few minutes less than Jay's career minutes,were excellent and indicated a good skill level. The fact that he averaged 2 rebounds per game less than Jay also gauges his good play beyond being the NDPOY.King had other statistics that measure his quality:blocked shots on the perimeter and opposing players' poor shooting percentages when he guarded them---as David Rivers' 3/17 and Mark Macon's 6/29.
King's numbers most definitely reflect his value and proved his worth as a defensive stopper who could also provide rebounds,steals, assists,good % shooting, and blocks while playing the other team's top offensive perimeter threat.:)
While Newton and Bilas played the same position, King did not.

Best--Blueprof:)