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DukiesPA
03-10-2009, 12:35 PM
Final results:

PLAYER OF THE YEAR
Ty Lawson, North Carolina (31)
Toney Douglas, Florida State (27)
Tyler Hansbrough, North Carolina (13)
Gerald Henderson, Duke (2)
Jeff Teague, Wake Forest (2)
Jack McClinton, Miami (1)

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/031009aag.html

Not all that surprising. Thought G would have gotten a few more votes but it looks like the decision may have come down to Sunday's game and Lawson clearly won it for Carolina while G didn't have what it takes....

Maybe next year

DevilCastDownfromDurham
03-10-2009, 12:42 PM
I think Lawson was the right call for POY. He's the best player on the best team and one of the 2-3 best players in the conference. I do think Douglas was clearly the ACC MVP this season. G was inconsistent (at best) early on and wasn't the game-changer that Lawson was late.

roywhite
03-10-2009, 12:44 PM
Not too surprising, and not a terrible choice, but I thought Toney Douglas would be a better choice.

Lawson has some very impressive numbers and performances, but he's not a great defender. Some opposing guards have scored in bunches on him.

CameronBornAndBred
03-10-2009, 12:54 PM
Fine by me. I think however that it's interesting that the national media don't look at him for the NPOY, but instead have Hansbrough in front of him. Some don't even have Lawson on their list anymore (they did earlier in the year).

allenmurray
03-10-2009, 01:00 PM
Given that Lawson played his entire career with only the bloody stump of an amputated leg I think he deserves the award.

"What is that you say - he didn't have an amputated leg for his entire career? It was only a sore toe? For only one game? " ;)

CDu
03-10-2009, 01:06 PM
There were three guys who stood out over the course of the ACC season: Toney Douglas, Ty Lawson, and Henderson. Henderson had a fantastic middle of the ACC season, but tailed off in the last few games. Douglass I think was hurt by the fact that he played for a team with no talent around him. Ultimately, I think Lawson won it with his dominance in the two Duke games.

The voters got it roughly right. I'd have chosen between Douglas and Lawson, and the vote was pretty close between the two. I would have put Henderson ahead of Hansbrough, but the voters were probably swayed by Hansbrough's gaudy totals and career performance. If he'd won it, that would have been a crock.

burns15
03-10-2009, 01:16 PM
I think you have to add Jeff Teague to that list of players that stood out. Very much like Henderson, in that, he got off to a torrid start in ACC play but had trouble continuing that pace because opponents would change their entire defense to shut down Teague. I think the lack of consistency through the entire season makes it so he was a darkhorse candidate for player of the year. But when Teague was hot, there was no one better in the ACC

blueprofessor
03-10-2009, 01:23 PM
Not too surprising, and not a terrible choice, but I thought Toney Douglas would be a better choice.

Lawson has some very impressive numbers and performances, but he's not a great defender. Some opposing guards have scored in bunches on him.

Douglas was great on O and great on D. I expect him to win DPOY and Hamilton to receive ACC COY.
I thought Douglas was much more deserving than a guy that was surrounded with NBA draft choices and who played a lot of "matador D".
I also pull for the "little guy schools" that do not have the talent UNC has.
I had predicted that Lawson and Hanstravel would split the vote (especially,the yellow(baby blue) journalists), thereby opening the way for a Douglas POY. It almost happened.:mad:
Like CDu, I think Hendo should have been ahead of Hanstravel.
Best--Blueprof:)

MulletMan
03-10-2009, 01:28 PM
Final results:

PLAYER OF THE YEAR
Ty Lawson, North Carolina (31)
Toney Douglas, Florida State (27)
Tyler Hansbrough, North Carolina (13)
Gerald Henderson, Duke (2)
Jeff Teague, Wake Forest (2)
Jack McClinton, Miami (1)

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/031009aag.html

Not all that surprising. Thought G would have gotten a few more votes but it looks like the decision may have come down to Sunday's game and Lawson clearly won it for Carolina while G didn't have what it takes....

Maybe next year

I think that's highway robbery. Douglas should have won this thing.

36.0 mpg, 20.8 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 3.0 apg, 1.26 a/t, 2 spg, 42.8% FG, 81.1% FT, 37.4% 3PG, 1.38 PPS

vs.

29.4 mpg, 15.9 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 6.5 apg, 3.32 a/t, 2 spg, 53.8% FG, 80% FT, 46.7% 3PG, 1.67 PPS

I would argue that the stat lines are pretty similar. Douglas has fewer assists (obviously) and his shooting % are lower because he took more contested jumpers that Ty... which is a direct result of what I consider to be Ty's biggest advantage, and that is the level of talent around him. Not to mention the fact that Douglas is a exponentially better defensive player than Lawson.

No. Sorry. Douglas got screwed.

DBFAN
03-10-2009, 01:43 PM
Given that Lawson played his entire career with only the bloody stump of an amputated leg I think he deserves the award.

"What is that you say - he didn't have an amputated leg for his entire career? It was only a sore toe? For only one game? " ;)

Dont forget he also fought a case of TB when they played Miami! :rolleyes:

JDev
03-10-2009, 02:12 PM
Not too surprising, and a fairly good choice, though I do agree with those that have said Douglas is more deserving. His numbers are better, and take him off FSU and they are garbage. Take Lawson off UNC and they are still a tournament-bound team with three All-ACC guys. Douglas was better on both offense and defense, but alas, plays for FSU, and overcoming a hyped UNC player is near impossible. I don't remember off hand, but I wonder how often the POY gets less than half of the votes? I know that is a testiment to the quality of the league and the players in it.

feldspar
03-10-2009, 02:22 PM
Given that Lawson played his entire career with only the bloody stump of an amputated leg I think he deserves the award.

"What is that you say - he didn't have an amputated leg for his entire career? It was only a sore toe? For only one game? " ;)

Well, maybe more than one now, according to Roy.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=ap-t25-ncarolina-lawson&prov=ap&type=lgns

TwoDukeTattoos
03-10-2009, 02:24 PM
Even on "nine toes" he's the man! :)

Biscuit
03-10-2009, 02:26 PM
I think that's highway robbery. Douglas should have won this thing.

36.0 mpg, 20.8 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 3.0 apg, 1.26 a/t, 2 spg, 42.8% FG, 81.1% FT, 37.4% 3PG, 1.38 PPS

vs.

29.4 mpg, 15.9 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 6.5 apg, 3.32 a/t, 2 spg, 53.8% FG, 80% FT, 46.7% 3PG, 1.67 PPS

I would argue that the stat lines are pretty similar. Douglas has fewer assists (obviously) and his shooting % are lower because he took more contested jumpers that Ty... which is a direct result of what I consider to be Ty's biggest advantage, and that is the level of talent around him. Not to mention the fact that Douglas is a exponentially better defensive player than Lawson.

No. Sorry. Douglas got screwed.

If you're the kind of person who doesn't mind advanced stats, check out the Ken Pomeroy numbers on offensive efficiency.

Lawson is #1 in the country. That's the entire NCAA Division 1, not just the conference. The next ACC player is Hansbrough at 19. Lawson, Hansbrough, Cole Aldrich and DeJuan Blair are the only players in the top 25 whose names I recognized.

If you prefer the more traditional stats, take a look at assist/turnover ratio in the conference. He's so far ahead of the other guards in the ACC that it looks like a mistake.

Lawson is a deserving player of the year. I actually think he's a legitimate national player of the year candidate. Douglas is a deserving #2. I think they got this one exactly right. Hopefully Hamilton will get coach of the year to properly honor what Florida State accomplished this season.

jipops
03-10-2009, 02:30 PM
Well, maybe more than one now, according to Roy.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=ap-t25-ncarolina-lawson&prov=ap&type=lgns

Perhaps an angle for the all-tournament team? Seriously what is more likely to happen - Lawson sits out the ACC tournament opener or Roy refrains from referring to himself in the 3rd person in his next press conference?

JDev
03-10-2009, 02:31 PM
If you're the kind of person who doesn't mind advanced stats, check out the Ken Pomeroy numbers on offensive efficiency.

Lawson is #1 in the country. That's the entire NCAA Division 1, not just the conference. The next ACC player is Hansbrough at 19. Lawson, Hansbrough, Cole Aldrich and DeJuan Blair are the only players in the top 25 whose names I recognized.

If you prefer the more traditional stats, take a look at assist/turnover ratio in the conference. He's so far ahead of the other guards in the ACC that it looks like a mistake.

Lawson is a deserving player of the year. I actually think he's a legitimate national player of the year candidate. Douglas is a deserving #2. I think they got this one exactly right. Hopefully Hamilton will get coach of the year to properly honor what Florida State accomplished this season.

You are simply cherry-picking the stats were Lawson is ahead. The same could be done in the areas where Douglas is ahead. Ultimately though, those were the two guys who should have been at the top, and it could have gone either way with good arguments by either side. As I said earlier, I think the biggest factor, as sad as it might be, is one plays for UNC and the other for FSU.
As far as the NPOY candidate, it is Griffin, and then a bunch of other guys about one mile behind.

FireOgilvie
03-10-2009, 02:36 PM
Not too surprising, and a fairly good choice, though I do agree with those that have said Douglas is more deserving. His numbers are better, and take him off FSU and they are garbage. Take Lawson off UNC and they are still a tournament-bound team with three All-ACC guys. Douglas was better on both offense and defense, but alas, plays for FSU, and overcoming a hyped UNC player is near impossible. I don't remember off hand, but I wonder how often the POY gets less than half of the votes? I know that is a testiment to the quality of the league and the players in it.

No way Douglas is better on offense. 42% FG is really low. Ty Lawson shot 53.8% and 46% from 3, not to mention his top 10 IN THE COUNTRY assist numbers. Lawson is the best offensive player in the ACC this year... he is what makes UNC great. The real question is whether his offense by itself puts him ahead of Douglas... because we all know Lawson got thrashed over and over again by opposing PGs.

elvis14
03-10-2009, 02:37 PM
Douglas would have been a better choice. I'm just really glad it didn't go to HansCheater, that would have really been awful. I think some folks on this board give Lawson too much credit because he played well against Duke. We don't match up well against TL because we don't make him guard anyone who's going to take him to the hole and score on him over and over like BC and UMD do.

I hear Roy is saying that is injured toe has caused massive amounts of swelling in both legs!

JDev
03-10-2009, 02:48 PM
No way Douglas is better on offense. 42% FG is really low. Ty Lawson shot 53.8% and 46% from 3, not to mention his top 10 IN THE COUNTRY assist numbers. Lawson is the best offensive player in the ACC this year... he is what makes UNC great. The real question is whether his offense by itself puts him ahead of Douglas... because we all know Lawson got thrashed over and over again by opposing PGs.

I don't think it is as cut-and-dry as that. Looking at it very simply, Douglas was more heavily guarded, yet scored more points. He had far less talent around him, and when he is off, forget about FSU. UNC won several games this year where Lawson was in single digits. I think either player has a good argument about offensive superiority.
In addition, I would hope the award isn't simply an offensive award. I think that Douglas was better than Lawson on defense more than Lawson was better than Douglas on offense, if that bit of jibberish makes any sense.

Like I said earlier: either way these were the two guys it probably should have come down to.

quickgtp
03-10-2009, 02:50 PM
Ok I don't know where else to put this, but for the love of God, here we go again:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3967823

I guess he will sit out until the finals when he will finally come back and save the heels again?

DBFAN
03-10-2009, 02:57 PM
I am also very happy that it was anybody but Hanstravel. I think that alone actually says a lot about his basketball skills.

Indoor66
03-10-2009, 02:59 PM
Perhaps an angle for the all-tournament team? Seriously what is more likely to happen - Lawson sits out the ACC tournament opener or Roy refrains from referring to himself in the 3rd person in his next press conference?

That could be posed as an over/under question...:eek:

JDev
03-10-2009, 03:01 PM
I don't think it is as cut-and-dry as that. Looking at it very simply, Douglas was more heavily guarded, yet scored more points. He had far less talent around him, and when he is off, forget about FSU. UNC won several games this year where Lawson was in single digits. I think either player has a good argument about offensive superiority.
In addition, I would hope the award isn't simply an offensive award. I think that Douglas was better than Lawson on defense more than Lawson was better than Douglas on offense, if that bit of jibberish makes any sense.

In addition, Lawson had four ACC games where he scored 10 or fewer points. Douglas never dipped below 18. Not once. I think he did more on an inferior team. But, I can see the argument the other way.

Biscuit
03-10-2009, 03:02 PM
You are simply cherry-picking the stats were Lawson is ahead. The same could be done in the areas where Douglas is ahead. Ultimately though, those were the two guys who should have been at the top, and it could have gone either way with good arguments by either side. As I said earlier, I think the biggest factor, as sad as it might be, is one plays for UNC and the other for FSU.
As far as the NPOY candidate, it is Griffin, and then a bunch of other guys about one mile behind.

I don't know about cherry-picking. The whole idea of the offensive efficiency stat is that it takes everything into account. The only stat where Douglas is ahead of Lawson, really, is rebounds, and these stats say that Lawson's shooting percentage from the field, the three point line and the free throw line more than balance that out. I personally hate PPG, because the most important element of that is shots taken, but I suppose if you think differently you'd also note the difference there between Lawson and Douglas.

I think you're right about Griffin, but I wish it wasn't the case. He's an outstanding prospect, no question, but he has played in exactly one big national game this year. The only one that he played in that garnered any attention was the Missouri game, and his team got beat pretty handily. That's just not a POY in my eyes.

JDev
03-10-2009, 03:09 PM
I don't know about cherry-picking. The whole idea of the offensive efficiency stat is that it takes everything into account. The only stat where Douglas is ahead of Lawson, really, is rebounds, and these stats say that Lawson's shooting percentage from the field, the three point line and the free throw line more than balance that out. I personally hate PPG, because the most important element of that is shots taken, but I suppose if you think differently you'd also note the difference there between Lawson and Douglas.

I think you're right about Griffin, but I wish it wasn't the case. He's an outstanding prospect, no question, but he has played in exactly one big national game this year. The only one that he played in that garnered any attention was the Missouri game, and his team got beat pretty handily. That's just not a POY in my eyes.

I wasn't saying Lawson isn't deserving, because I think he is. I was just sort of playing (blue) devil's advocate and saying that Douglas had a very good case as well. I guess there is a reason they were #1 and 2 and only seperated by four votes.
As far as Griffin, I agree that he sees far fewer great teams and the Big 12 is really down this year (though KU is surprisingly good after losing all five starters). But, I think his productivity cannot be ignored. Also, he is only a 59% free throw shooter. If he shot a little better from the line he would probably be getting about 30 points a game!

Duvall
03-10-2009, 03:10 PM
I think you're right about Griffin, but I wish it wasn't the case. He's an outstanding prospect, no question, but he has played in exactly one big national game this year. The only one that he played in that garnered any attention was the Missouri game, and his team got beat pretty handily. That's just not a POY in my eyes.

The only "big national game" that you're counting happens to be one of the four games that his team lost this year?

Well, that's convenient.

Biscuit
03-10-2009, 03:11 PM
I wasn't saying Lawson isn't deserving, because I think he is. I was just sort of playing (blue) devil's advocate and saying that Douglas had a very good case as well. I guess there is a reason they were #1 and 2 and only seperated by four votes.
As far as Griffin, I agree that he sees far fewer great teams and the Big 12 is really down this year (though KU is surprisingly good after losing all five starters). But, I think his productivity cannot be ignored. Also, he is only a 59% free throw shooter. If he shot a little better from the line he would probably be getting about 30 points a game!

I know- I was just taking the opportunity to advocate offensive efficiency as a statistic!

Griffin's a strange case. It was a real bummer for all college basketball fans that he got hurt right as OU got to the meat of its schedule. I guess we'll get a chance this weekend and in the big dance to see what he's really made of.

JDev
03-10-2009, 03:16 PM
I know- I was just taking the opportunity to advocate offensive efficiency as a statistic!

Griffin's a strange case. It was a real bummer for all college basketball fans that he got hurt right as OU got to the meat of its schedule. I guess we'll get a chance this weekend and in the big dance to see what he's really made of.

I was watching the OU/UT game where Griffin got his concussion, and I was very surprised. The blown that seemed to cause it looked like just a glancing shot. I was surprised it had such an effect, especially on a player that looks like he could start at middle linebacker for the OU football team.

Biscuit
03-10-2009, 03:18 PM
The only "big national game" that you're counting happens to be one of the four games that his team lost this year?

Well, that's convenient.

It's the only game he has played in since Thanksgiving weekend in which the opponent was a team in the top 25 of the polls or the top 30 of the Sagarin or Pomeroy ratings. In my mind, big national games are those that feature two highly regarded teams, that get coverage beyond the region, and that get featured in the first 20 minutes of Sportcenter even if nothing remarkable happens in the course of the game. Missouri was the only one that meets that criteria.

I'm not including Texas here, where he was concussed early and missed the majority of the game.

dukegirlinsc
03-10-2009, 03:20 PM
Can't say I disagree with this one. Without being extremely hateful, I'm glad it's not you-know-who. (Ok, I'm being extremely hateful, but I'm okay with that.)

Duvall
03-10-2009, 03:37 PM
It's the only game he has played in since Thanksgiving weekend in which the opponent was a team in the top 25 of the polls or the top 30 of the Sagarin or Pomeroy ratings. In my mind, big national games are those that feature two highly regarded teams, that get coverage beyond the region, and that get featured in the first 20 minutes of Sportcenter even if nothing remarkable happens in the course of the game. Missouri was the only one that meets that criteria.

I'm not including Texas here, where he was concussed early and missed the majority of the game.

There's also the first Texas game, in which he notched 20 points and 10 rebounds. Below his season averages, but still pretty good for a "big national game." And well above average for lesser players, like just about everyone else.

Griffin also deserves credit for consistently dominating good-but-not-great opponents.

Inonehand
03-10-2009, 03:42 PM
Given that Lawson played his entire career with only the bloody stump of an amputated leg I think he deserves the award.

"What is that you say - he didn't have an amputated leg for his entire career? It was only a sore toe? For only one game? " ;)

I love you and your sense of humor so much more on this board...classic.

Wander
03-10-2009, 03:44 PM
I guess we'll get a chance this weekend and in the big dance to see what he's really made of.

We already know "what he's really made of." Oklahoma could lose to a 16 seed, and it wouldn't change the fact that Griffin has been the best player in the country all season long. Not the best prospect - the best college player. Your attempts to lessen his POY award are a bit silly.

For what it's worth, 2nd place would go to Dejuan Blair. Not that there is a 2nd place POY award. After that, I see a group of guys at about the same level, including Lawson.

I don't have a problem with Lawson being the conference POY. It should have been Douglas or Lawson, there's good arguments to be made for either, both very worthy choices, and it's good to see those two guys finished on top.

Biscuit
03-10-2009, 03:51 PM
We already know "what he's really made of." Oklahoma could lose to a 16 seed, and it wouldn't change the fact that Griffin has been the best player in the country all season long. Not the best prospect - the best college player. Your attempts to lessen his POY award are a bit silly.

For what it's worth, 2nd place would go to Dejuan Blair. Not that there is a 2nd place POY award. After that, I see a group of guys at about the same level, including Lawson.

I don't have a problem with Lawson being the conference POY. It should have been Douglas or Lawson, there's good arguments to be made for either, both very worthy choices, and it's good to see those two guys finished on top.

Why? What's your criteria for POY? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can make a good argument for Lawson- or for Blair, for that matter. Love his game, I'm with you there.

Look, I think Griffin's a great player, but he hasn't dazzled against a top 25 opponent all year. I'm not saying he can't or won't, I'm just saying he hasn't. That's a fact. Has there ever been a player of the year that only played two games against top 25 opposition? Let alone the fact that one of those games was in November and that his team lost the other one going away.

jipops
03-10-2009, 03:53 PM
Lawson was essentially the driving force of a talented team that finished 1st in the conference. I think that's enough of an argument for him to win this award, regardless of stats.

jipops
03-10-2009, 04:03 PM
Why? What's your criteria for POY? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can make a good argument for Lawson- or for Blair, for that matter. Love his game, I'm with you there.

Look, I think Griffin's a great player, but he hasn't dazzled against a top 25 opponent all year. I'm not saying he can't or won't, I'm just saying he hasn't. That's a fact. Has there ever been a player of the year that only played two games against top 25 opposition? Let alone the fact that one of those games was in November and that his team lost the other one going away.

You make an excellent case in your questioning. It is true we haven't seen him play against the kind of opposition that we've seen someone like Hansbrough face. What he's truly made of we maybe haven't seen yet. But given what I've watched this year, I haven't seen anyone as impressive as Griffin has been on the court with the possible exception of Blair in the 1st UConn game.

allenmurray
03-10-2009, 04:09 PM
I love you and your sense of humor so much more on this board...classic.

Thanks, . . . I guess . . . I think . . .

I think I burned myself out on the PPB (I assume that is what you are referring to when you say so much more) - it wasn't fun anymore and I wasn't fun anymore.

As I said to someone earlier today, the PPB started to remind me of the Pepto-Bismol commercial - nausea, heartburn, indigestion, upset stomach, diarrahea - only without the lovely shade of pink and the campy commercials.

FireOgilvie
03-10-2009, 04:11 PM
Why? What's your criteria for POY? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can make a good argument for Lawson- or for Blair, for that matter. Love his game, I'm with you there.

Look, I think Griffin's a great player, but he hasn't dazzled against a top 25 opponent all year. I'm not saying he can't or won't, I'm just saying he hasn't. That's a fact. Has there ever been a player of the year that only played two games against top 25 opposition? Let alone the fact that one of those games was in November and that his team lost the other one going away.

These are his numbers against top 25 opponents (rankings when they played OU):

#21 Davidson - 25 pts, 21 reb, 7-11 fg
#9 Purdue - 18 pts, 21 reb, 5-13 fg
#11 Texas - 20 pts, 10 reb, 8-13 fg
#23 Baylor - 20 pts, 17 reb, 6-15 fg
#12 Missouri - 16 pts, 21 reb, 7-11 fg

That's 19.8 pts/gm, 18 reb/gm on 52% shooting.

Not bad. All of those were wins, except Missouri.

Biscuit
03-10-2009, 04:32 PM
These are his numbers against top 25 opponents (rankings when they played OU):

#21 Davidson - 25 pts, 21 reb, 7-11 fg
#9 Purdue - 18 pts, 21 reb, 5-13 fg
#11 Texas - 20 pts, 10 reb, 8-13 fg
#23 Baylor - 20 pts, 17 reb, 6-15 fg
#12 Missouri - 16 pts, 21 reb, 7-11 fg

That's 19.8 pts/gm, 18 reb/gm on 52% shooting.

Not bad. All of those were wins, except Missouri.

Those are the teams' rankings at the time of the game. They mean nothing. I'm pretty sure UNC didn't beat the 8th best team in the country when they trounced Notre Dame in Maui. Just like I'm sure Texas is not the 11th best team, Davidson is not the 21st best team, and Baylor is not the 23rd best team.

Here's their current pomeroy ratings:

Davidson: 70
Purdue: 19
Texas: 27
Baylor: 64
Missouri: 12- and his team was never in this game.

FireOgilvie
03-10-2009, 04:48 PM
Those are the teams' rankings at the time of the game. They mean nothing. I'm pretty sure UNC didn't beat the 8th best team in the country when they trounced Notre Dame in Maui. Just like I'm sure Texas is not the 11th best team, Davidson is not the 21st best team, and Baylor is not the 23rd best team.

Here's their current pomeroy ratings:

Davidson: 70
Purdue: 19
Texas: 27
Baylor: 64
Missouri: 12- and his team was never in this game.

Oh, okay. He hasn't "dazzled against a top 25 opponent all year," but the top 25 opponents he played don't count. I see. Rankings at the time when the teams actually played should be thrown out. We need to look into the future to determine that Purdue would later lose Hummel and drop several places due to that. We should also ignore that Texas' play really fell off in the middle of the year due to poor PG play, but that they've rebounded and still have an RPI of 27. Also, Stephen Curry injured himself a month after playing OU, which made Davidson's RPI drop significantly after losses while he was injured or out, but we'll just ignore that too. Let's also ignore the fact that Baylor started out the season on a tear (15-4), beating Providence and Arizona State, but only fell off after losing to Oklahoma. Let's ignore all of that because you say so. Sounds good.

/sarcasm

Why don't you try giving some examples of people that have outplayed Griffin instead of making silly excuses.

Wander
03-10-2009, 04:49 PM
Look, I think Griffin's a great player, but he hasn't dazzled against a top 25 opponent all year. I'm not saying he can't or won't, I'm just saying he hasn't. That's a fact. Has there ever been a player of the year that only played two games against top 25 opposition? Let alone the fact that one of those games was in November and that his team lost the other one going away.

I see your point, but this is an argument more for Oklahoma being overrated as a team rather than Griffin as an individual. In that sense, I agree with you - Oklahoma doesn't really have a lot of impressive wins and hasn't played a tough schedule. I won't pick them to go to the Final Four, because I do think they are a bit overrated.

But Griffin as an individual? He had double doubles against Missouri, Purdue, Oklahoma State, etc. He's been great against the better teams he's faced too. There's really no doubt in my mind that he'd have a double double against UNC, Duke, Pitt, whoever, 9 times out of 10 as well.

Biscuit
03-10-2009, 04:59 PM
I see your point, but this is an argument more for Oklahoma being overrated as a team rather than Griffin as an individual. In that sense, I agree with you - Oklahoma doesn't really have a lot of impressive wins and hasn't played a tough schedule. I won't pick them to go to the Final Four, because I do think they are a bit overrated.

But Griffin as an individual? He had double doubles against Missouri, Purdue, Oklahoma State, etc. He's been great against the better teams he's faced too. There's really no doubt in my mind that he'd have a double double against UNC, Duke, Pitt, whoever, 9 times out of 10 as well.

Just a legitimate difference of opinion as to what POY means. That's all. Not sure one of us is right or wrong.

I'd like to see some big-time performances in some big-time games. Just like all of these guys did, except maybe Bogut:

1991 - Larry Johnson, UNLV
1992 - Christian Laettner, Duke
1993 - Calbert Cheaney, Indiana
1994 - Glenn Robinson, Purdue
1995 - Joe Smith, Maryland
1996 - Marcus Camby, Massachusetts
1997 - Tim Duncan, Wake Forest
1998 - Antawn Jamison, North Carolina
1999 - Elton Brand, Duke
2000 - Kenyon Martin, Cincinnati
2001 - Shane Battier, Duke
2002 - Jason Williams, Duke
2003 - T. J. Ford, Texas
2004 - Jameer Nelson, Saint Joseph's
2005 - Andrew Bogut, Utah
2006 - J. J. Redick, Duke
2007 - Kevin Durant, Texas
2008 - Tyler Hansbrough, North Carolina

My analysis of the stength of schedule was the correct way to look at it, though. :cool:

FireOgilvie
03-10-2009, 05:11 PM
Biscuit, who do you think should be POY? Let me guess. Ty Lawson or Tyler Hansbrough. Hansbrough has been at his worst in big games. He has completely disappeared in both games against Duke and his numbers aren't as good as Griffin's in ANY game the entire season. Lawson has been good in big games against Duke, but not so much in games against other good teams. He's also been torched by Vasquez, Teague, and Rice... not to mention Scheyer (even though UNC won).

Blair's performance in big games hasn't been that great if you look at his stats. He had a big game against UConn, but his last game against UConn he put up 8 pts, 8 reb on 4-9 shooting. He doesn't average as many rebounds or even close to the amount of points Griffin does. He's also the 2nd leading scorer on his own team.

So, who is your POY?

FerryFor50
03-10-2009, 09:21 PM
When I first heard Ty Lawson won ACC player of the year, I agreed. The most valuable player on the best team in the league should win it. Then I looked at the voting numbers:

PLAYER OF THE YEAR
Ty Lawson, North Carolina (31)
Toney Douglas, Florida State (27)
Tyler Hansbrough, North Carolina (13)
Gerald Henderson, Duke (2)
Jeff Teague, Wake Forest (2)
Jack McClinton, Miami (1)

31 votes? Was he REALLY that much better than everyone else in the league? Particularly, was he 29 votes better than Gerald Henderson?

So I took all the ACC stats of the listed players, and added a write-in vote for Kyle Singler (hey, I AM a Duke fan after all). Then I averaged them all out. Then, I listed the positive and negatives of each player. Turns out, it shouldn't have been the runaway that it was:

----------

Kyle Singler, Duke
42% FG, 39% 3PT, 16.6PPG, 7.4 RPG, 1.9APG, 2 turnovers, 1.25 steals, .94 blocks

Positives:
Rebounds, 3PT%, points per game, blocks

Negatives:
shooting %, Assist to turnover ratio

Singler had a pretty good year, but put up a couple of stinkers, especially in the slaughter at Clemson. But he was always playing hard, rebounding and adding an edge of toughness to a Duke team that finished tied for 2nd in the ACC.

-----------

Gerald Henderson
49% FG, 32% 3PT, 19.8 ppg, 5.69 RPG, 3 APG, 2.75 APG, 1.69 steals, .44 blocks

Positives:
Rebounds at G/F, FG%, ppg, steals

Negatives:
3PT %

Henderson started the season out slowly, but once he hit ACC play, he was on a mission. All that athleticism and potential started to "click," and the highlight was 35 points in the win against Wake Forest. His only negative was 3PT%, especially considering he put up 3.5 per game. Definitely should have gotten more than 2 votes as the key player on the 2nd place team in the ACC.

------------

Tyler Hansbrough
49% FG, 54% 3PT, 19.88 ppg, 8.75 RPG, 1 APG, 1.75 Turnovers, .5 steals, .5 blocks

Positives:
FG%, 3PT % (though he shot less than 1 per game), points per game, rebounds

Negatives:
Doesn't pass, very little production from defensive end other than flops/charges

Nowhere near the player he was last season when he won NPOY, but still very productive on the offensive end. He even added a new wrinkle, stepping out to hit threes at a 54% clip, albeit only shooting .8 per game. Tenacious rebounder, but was not nearly as critical to his team's success as Lawson. Also put up some bad games against FSU and Miami, and wasn't nearly the dominant force since he wasn't getting to the line nearly as much. Awful passer (the "black hole" of the UNC offense) and barely passable defender - it could also be argued that he was just as important to the team as Danny Green or Wayne Ellington (though, admittedly, not a very strong argument).

------------

Ty Lawson
52% FG, 45% 3PT, 16.2 ppg, 3.13 rpg, 6.4 apg, 2.4 turnovers, 1.56 steals, .13 blocks

Positives:
FG%, 3PT %, assists (helps when you have a stacked team), assist/turnover ratio, steals

Negatives:
rebounds, ppg (though lowest of the candidates)

The glue to the UNC team. After him, who plays PG? Larry Drew? Bobby Frasor? Uh, no thanks. Ran the offense for the best offensive team in the country, played decent defense, and shot an incredible % from the guard position. Assists come pretty easy on that UNC team (I could have averaged a couple assists myself), but his importance lies in keeping everyone involved on offense and driving at will.

------------

Jeff Teague
46% FG, 44% 3PT, 19.25 ppg, 2.63 rebounds, 3.06 assists, 3 turnovers, 1.69 steals, .63 blocks

Positives:
FG%, 3PT%, 19.25 ppg, defense

Negatives:
can shoot his team in or out of a game with # of 3 attempts (4 per game), poor assist/turnover ratio for PG

Started out the season on fire, taking top ranked UNC down pretty much by himself. Then, about mid-season, fell to earth and only showed up for the Duke and Maryland games. Not a very good ball distributor, but a great defender and natural scorer. Tends to shoot too many threes and turns it over too much for a PG.

------------

Toney Douglas
42% FG, 39% 3PT, 23.06 ppg, 3.94 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 2.1 turnovers, 1.88 steals, .13 blocks

Positives:
3PT%, ppg, decent rebounder from guard position, decent assist to turnover ratio, steals

Negatives:
16.6 shots per game at 42%

Great scorer. Really came into his own when ACC play started, and never had a game where he scored below 18. However, he is pretty much the ONLY valid scoring option on that FSU team (next high scorer averaged 8.9 ppg), and as a result, averaged almost 17 shots a game while only hitting 42% of them. Took nearly 7 threes per game, but hit a good percentage. As Douglas goes, FSU goes. At 42%, it's tough to know which FSU team will show up. Unlike some other high scorers, however, he does contribute on defense, on the boards and at the point.

--------------

Jack McClinton
44% FG, 45% 3PT, 21.75 ppg, 3.19 rebounds, 2.8 assists, 2.6 turnovers, .69 steals, .06 blocks

Positives:
3PT%, ppg

Negatives:
assist to turnover ratio, not a great defender

Another great scorer who has very little help on offense. Frankly, if McClinton is out of the game, Miami isn't even NIT worthy. Decent rebounder, but 1:1 assist to turnover ratio doesn't help his team, which explains why Miami was such an enigma this season. Pretty bad defender, but makes up for the 2 point layups he gives up by jacking up 7.3 threes per game.

---------------

So, after looking over the numbers, I'd still give the edge to Lawson, but Douglas wouldn't have been as close. I'd have had Gerald Henderson in 2nd. Here's my rankings:

1) Lawson
2) Henderson
3) Hansbrough
4) Douglas
5) Singler
6) McClinton
7) Teague

Thoughts? Be sure to back 'em up with something other than calling me a Duke homer. :p

wolfpackdevil
03-10-2009, 09:33 PM
Would you rather have Duke win a national championship or Henderson win ACC POY???

And no matter how they vote for it, Lawson deserved it.

He beat Duke TWICE, mostly on his own, and he carried the tar heels to the best record in the ACC, and 13 out of 14 straight ACC wins.

FerryFor50
03-10-2009, 09:35 PM
Would you rather have Duke win a national championship or Henderson win ACC POY???

And no matter how they vote for it, Lawson deserved it.

He beat Duke TWICE, mostly on his own, and he carried the tar heels to the best record in the ACC, and 13 out of 14 straight ACC wins.

Never once did I say he didn't deserve it. I just don't think he was light years better.

And last Duke-UNC game, he was ok, but not great.

MulletMan
03-10-2009, 09:59 PM
Would you rather have Duke win a national championship or Henderson win ACC POY???

And no matter how they vote for it, Lawson deserved it.

He beat Duke TWICE, mostly on his own, and he carried the tar heels to the best record in the ACC, and 13 out of 14 straight ACC wins.

He CARRIED the Tar Heels? CARRIED them? Seriously? No... Douglas CARRIED a team. Vasquez CARRIED a team. Blake Griffin CARRIES a team. DeJuan Blair (at times) CARRIES his team.

When you play with the reigning player of the year, and the guy who comes in 3rd place for ACC POY, you do NOT carry a team.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-10-2009, 10:01 PM
... Hansbrough has been at his worst in big games. He has completely disappeared in both games against Duke....
So, who is your POY?

Dude, if I may step in...all the Hans hate will make you crazy...(er);)

TH was the primary focus of the Duke defense, usually double teamed every time he touched the ball, and still managed 17 pts and 8 boards the last game, and 17 points 6 rebounds in the first. Combined, he has hit three 3 pointers, had 3 blocks and only had 3 turnovers in a total of 60+ minutes against Duke this season.

I'd say he showed up.

Btw, my NPOY pick is Griffen, he's the best individulal player I've seen all year.

FireOgilvie
03-10-2009, 10:20 PM
Dude, if I may step in...all the Hans hate will make you crazy...(er);)

TH was the primary focus of the Duke defense, usually double teamed every time he touched the ball, and still managed 17 pts and 8 boards the last game, and 17 points 6 rebounds in the first. Combined, he has hit three 3 pointers, had 3 blocks and only had 3 turnovers in a total of 60+ minutes against Duke this season.

I'd say he showed up.

Btw, my NPOY pick is Griffen, he's the best individulal player I've seen all year.

You're right about HBro as our defensive focus. In the context of the NPOY conversation, though, Hansbrough did not put up numbers that were worthy of that honor... especially against Duke... in fact, his 17 and 7 average against Duke is under his season average. That was my point. Griffin is always the focus of every defense he plays against, yet somehow manages 22 points, 14 rebounds a game. Biscuit has still not said who deserves NPOY over Griffin... talk to him about "crazy."

jimsumner
03-10-2009, 10:31 PM
Blake Griffin is going to win all the national POY awards and I don't think any of them are going to be especially close.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-10-2009, 10:47 PM
You're right about HBro as our defensive focus. In the context of the NPOY conversation, though, Hansbrough did not put up numbers that were worthy of that honor... especially against Duke... in fact, his 17 and 7 average against Duke is under his season average. That was my point. Griffin is always the focus of every defense he plays against, yet somehow manages 22 points, 14 rebounds a game. Biscuit has still not said who deserves NPOY over Griffin... talk to him about "crazy."

I don't think anyone can argue TH has had a NPOY season this year. And I thought Biscuit was trying to make a case for Lawson, not TH.

But what got my attention was the (TH)... "completely dissapeared in both games against Duke" statement you made.

That's just wrong in any context.

TH is constantly being dissed on this board, and I don't mean to pick on you here, but a Heel fan has got to step up and get a players back sometimes...

eddiehaskell
03-11-2009, 04:00 AM
Even on "nine toes" he's the man! :)Lawson's new nickname for the rest of the season...the legendary "nine toes Lawson" :p

Biscuit
03-11-2009, 08:11 AM
Biscuit, who do you think should be POY? Let me guess. Ty Lawson or Tyler Hansbrough. Hansbrough has been at his worst in big games. He has completely disappeared in both games against Duke and his numbers aren't as good as Griffin's in ANY game the entire season. Lawson has been good in big games against Duke, but not so much in games against other good teams. He's also been torched by Vasquez, Teague, and Rice... not to mention Scheyer (even though UNC won).

Blair's performance in big games hasn't been that great if you look at his stats. He had a big game against UConn, but his last game against UConn he put up 8 pts, 8 reb on 4-9 shooting. He doesn't average as many rebounds or even close to the amount of points Griffin does. He's also the 2nd leading scorer on his own team.

So, who is your POY?

I'd vote for Lawson for POY if I had a vote. His defense is not amazing, but the big games put up by those guys wasn't strictly his fault. They played great, and he also wasn't guarding them all the time or even most of the time. I also really like Pomeroy's work, and he says Lawson is the most efficient offensive player in the country AND he is the PG for the top-ranked team- unlike the other guys at the top of the rankings, almost all of whom are from mediocre mid-majors- AND he's come up huge in close games on many occasions AND his assist/TO ratio is fantastic. I really think he's wildly underappreciated, not just nationally but also by UNC fans.

I agree with you about Hansbrough. He played well in the second Duke game, but not in the first one, and played horribly in all of the UNC losses. I'm not even sure he's first-team AA. I'd put Lawson, Blair, Harden and Griffin ahead of him for sure. I'm anti-Curry this year. All hat, no cattle.

My problem with Griffin as POY is just that right now, I'd grade his season as an incomplete. I made my argument above that he hasn't had his final exam yet, or really even his mid-terms or any other tough challenge at all. Continuing my analogy, I'd say he's a very smart guy who's been winning elementary school spelling bees all year, and was out sick for the big exams.

I actually think Levance Fields is a guy who doesn't get nearly enough credit. I'm not suggesting he's POY or even in the running, but he should be the second-team AA point guard behind Lawson. He runs a heckuva show up there. I love watching him play.

Wander
03-11-2009, 08:37 AM
I also really like Pomeroy's work, and he says Lawson is the most efficient offensive player in the country AND he is the PG for the top-ranked team- unlike the other guys at the top of the rankings, almost all of whom are from mediocre mid-majors- AND he's come up huge in close games on many occasions AND his assist/TO ratio is fantastic.

You realize you just counted all of his positive qualities twice, right?

FWIW my 1st team would be: Lawson, Curry, Harden, Griffin, Blair (I know, really original, right?)

DukiesPA
03-11-2009, 08:41 AM
I agree on the questions on Griffin's incomplete season or lack of competition and don't think they deserve the ranking they have after playing a lot of close games in a not-so-great conference, but I don't think there's any question he's not the best player in America right now. He's on a pretty thin team (Willie Warren's probably the only other legit threat on their squad and he's only a frosh) and averaging 22.1 and 14.2 (over 6pts and 8 rebounds more than anyone else on his squad, which is just crazy). Essentially he's essentially carrying the #7-ranked team in the nation on his own.

That said, if there are voters out there who haven't made up their mind yet this could be big week or two for him -- if OK gets exposed a little bit in the conference tourney or early games next week he could lose some votes and bring some other names into it.

For what it's worth, Bobby Knight was on Mike & Mike this AM and said there are only two real candidates for NCAA POY this year and no one else is close -- Griffin and HBro. Not sure how a guy can win NCAA POY and not ACC POY, but his words, not mine.

jipops
03-11-2009, 08:52 AM
I don't think anyone can argue TH has had a NPOY season this year. And I thought Biscuit was trying to make a case for Lawson, not TH.

But what got my attention was the (TH)... "completely dissapeared in both games against Duke" statement you made.

That's just wrong in any context.

TH is constantly being dissed on this board, and I don't mean to pick on you here, but a Heel fan has got to step up and get a players back sometimes...

If he hadn't destroyed us in Cameron every single year, he probably wouldn't be as detested around here.

Biscuit
03-11-2009, 08:54 AM
You realize you just counted all of his positive qualities twice, right?

FWIW my 1st team would be: Lawson, Curry, Harden, Griffin, Blair (I know, really original, right?)

I didn't articulate my arguments very clearly:

1. His Offensive efficiency- which includes A/TO- is the best in the country and is light years ahead of all of the other POY candidates except Hansbrough.
2. He's the PG for the top-ranked team and a team that won a regular season conference title, something you can't say about any other non-Pitt contenders for the AA teams.
3. He has clutch performances in big games and also late-game heroics. These are two sides of the same coin, I guess.

I just don't see Curry as an elite player this year. I know it's not a popular position, but to me if you're going to get consideration with the elite from the power conferences, you have to do better than shooting 45.6% from the field, 38.2% from the three-point line and a 1.2/1 A/TO ratio.

Highlander
03-11-2009, 08:56 AM
Not sure how a guy can win NCAA POY and not ACC POY, but his words, not mine.

Jason Williams did in 2001. Granted Shane won most, but IIRC Jason won one in 2001.

Also, Shane tied with Joe Forte for ACC POY, but won most of the National POY awards outright. However, Joe was his equal in ACC play, if you believe the voting...

Inonehand
03-11-2009, 09:24 AM
Thanks, . . . I guess . . . I think . . .

I think I burned myself out on the PPB (I assume that is what you are referring to when you say so much more) - it wasn't fun anymore and I wasn't fun anymore.

As I said to someone earlier today, the PPB started to remind me of the Pepto-Bismol commercial - nausea, heartburn, indigestion, upset stomach, diarrahea - only without the lovely shade of pink and the campy commercials.

It's March Madness instead of year-round madness. I'm with you.

Duvall
03-11-2009, 09:28 AM
Jason Williams did in 2001. Granted Shane won most, but IIRC Jason won one in 2001.

Also, Shane tied with Joe Forte for ACC POY, but won most of the National POY awards outright. However, Joe was his equal in ACC play, if you believe the voting...

Williams also won most (all?) of the NPOY awards in 2002 while losing ACC POY to Juan Dixon.

billy
03-11-2009, 10:27 AM
Anyone else find it bizarre that Lawson's toe was injected to let him play against Duke on Sun? The risk: worsening of the injury could occur, which, according to the N&O article, likely did occur: "I actually think it's worse than when I did it". The benefit: apparently to win the regular season, beat Duke again, and hopefully secure a one-seed in the NCAA's. Unless, of course, playing on the toe makes it worse, delaying the healing time for a few days to several weeks. Obviously the game meant a lot to Lawson and Roy, or the injection would not be acceptable from a risk/benefit standpoint...

Biscuit
03-11-2009, 10:37 AM
Anyone else find it bizarre that Lawson's toe was injected to let him play against Duke on Sun? The risk: worsening of the injury could occur, which, according to the N&O article, likely did occur: "I actually think it's worse than when I did it". The benefit: apparently to win the regular season, beat Duke again, and hopefully secure a one-seed in the NCAA's. Unless, of course, playing on the toe makes it worse, delaying the healing time for a few days to several weeks. Obviously the game meant a lot to Lawson and Roy, or the injection would not be acceptable from a risk/benefit standpoint...

I think that if you asked Roy with the cameras and tape recorders off, he'd say that he would happily trade the win over Duke, and the regular season championship and guaranteed #1 seed that came with it, for a first-round exit in the ACC tournament. He's made his feelings on the ACC tourament known on many occasions. I imagine that the priorities of Lawson and the rest of the team are similar to those of their head coach.

UNC had two paths to a guaranteed #1 seed in the NCAA tournament- win the Duke game or win the ACC tournament. If the injury is a wear and tear injury, isn't it better to use Lawson for a single 40 minute game to accomplish the same thing that a long weekend's worth of 40 minute games would accomplish?

I'm not saying I agree, but Roy's been pretty clear that this year, in particular, is all about preparing for the NCAA tournament, and that the ACC tournament is almost an exhibition or warmup tournament.

davekay1971
03-11-2009, 10:45 AM
I'm not saying I agree, but Roy's been pretty clear that this year, in particular, is all about preparing for the NCAA tournament, and that the ACC tournament is almost an exhibition or warmup tournament.

I agree with your logic on this. If you figure Carolina locks up a 1 seed by beating Duke, and the ACC tournament is therefore irrelevant, go for the win over Duke and rest Lawson for almost 2 full weeks. However, I think Roy's attitude on the ACC tournament is kind of shocking for a guy who's a home grown ACC guy. I know that the focus of the fans is win the big one. Duke fans didn't exactly keep on wringing our hands about getting thrashed by Carolina in the ACC final in 1991 once we'd one the NCAA. But Roy has been pretty clear all along that he doesn't care much about the ACC tournament. On a green hillside overlooking route 70, Everett Case is rolling over...

As an aside, as Duke fans we all know the Lawson injury was just a bunch of trumped up Tarhole nonsense anyway, yet another in the long list of Willis Reed moments the lesser blue has manufactured over the years :)

billy
03-11-2009, 11:01 AM
Biscuit- I completely agree with your conclusion. I wonder whether the toe will "heel" enough for the NCAA's though. Certainly it could be injected over and over again to let him play but that would be suboptimal if not ethically delicate.

Of course this discussion relies on partial information about the injury and thus speculation, but that's also what makes it fun. My guess is that he had an old turf toe type injury or dislocation involving a bony avulsion (i.e. fracture) that was aggravated last week. Assuming only minor soft tissue injury, probably minimal risk to injection and letting him play. But what if it's worse and he misses the NCAA? Even with a MRI diagnosis you're taking somewhat of a risk...

davekay1971
03-11-2009, 11:05 AM
Duke fans didn't exactly keep on wringing our hands about getting thrashed by Carolina in the ACC final in 1991 once we'd one the NCAA.

Good lord. "one" = won.

It was a rough night on call last night...

jjasper0729
03-11-2009, 11:08 AM
i was at the unc game and was standing by the scorer's table after it was over. After lawson got his little piece of the net (good grief that has to be the most outrageous thing i've ever seen... the TOURNAMENT winner is the champion, not the regular season winner for crying out loud, but i digress), he came to the bench and they unwrapped his foot and his toe looked pretty gruesome before they iced it down.

I am in no way a 'hole fan (at all) but if that's how it was throughout the game, then he's got some major cajones

DukiesPA
03-11-2009, 11:17 AM
i was at the unc game and was standing by the scorer's table after it was over. After lawson got his little piece of the net (good grief that has to be the most outrageous thing i've ever seen... the TOURNAMENT winner is the champion, not the regular season winner for crying out loud, but i digress), he came to the bench and they unwrapped his foot and his toe looked pretty gruesome before they iced it down.

I am in no way a 'hole fan (at all) but if that's how it was throughout the game, then he's got some major cajones

I've heard that from other people at the game as well, but have been reluctant to post it because I didn't see it myself. In fact I heard that as the seniors finished their speeches and went down the line thanking their teammates, Lawson wasn't standing up to give them a hug by the end of it because each time he did it looked pretty painful.

Additionally, in regard to those asking why Lawson played, also consider it was essentially his senior night. I don't think it's much of a surprise he's probably gone after this year so Sunday was his last game at the Dean Dome and, with a chance to clinch the ACC outright against Duke, I can only imagine he was going to do anything possible to play through it. In fact he was the only underclassman that actually started the game -- Carolina has a pretty long tradition of starting seniors on senior night (Ellington and Deon Thompsen both started on the bench in favor of Frasor and Copeland).

billy
03-11-2009, 11:23 AM
Local anesthesia is pretty effective. Having injected fingers and toes over the years for various injuries, I can tell you that Lawson could be made to feel no pain (no comment on his cojones) for the game

jjasper0729
03-11-2009, 11:25 AM
I've heard that from other people at the game as well, but have been reluctant to post it because I didn't see it myself.

there were three empty chairs between him and myself. he had the foot pretty heavily wrapped and taped as well as a sleeve over the toe. It came out of the sleeve pretty nasty (not to go into any gory details here, i'll leave it at that).

I will definitely give him the respect for playing in pain because that looked pretty bad to be a "stubbed" toe.

Wander
03-11-2009, 12:22 PM
I didn't articulate my arguments very clearly:

1. His Offensive efficiency- which includes A/TO- is the best in the country and is light years ahead of all of the other POY candidates except Hansbrough.
2. He's the PG for the top-ranked team and a team that won a regular season conference title, something you can't say about any other non-Pitt contenders for the AA teams.
3. He has clutch performances in big games and also late-game heroics. These are two sides of the same coin, I guess.


I agree with 1 - that's why I would put him as a 1st team AA. 2 is true but irrelevant to me. I think 3 is mostly but not entirely true - didn't he play relatively poorly in your three losses?



I just don't see Curry as an elite player this year. I know it's not a popular position, but to me if you're going to get consideration with the elite from the power conferences, you have to do better than shooting 45.6% from the field, 38.2% from the three-point line and a 1.2/1 A/TO ratio.

As you know, I don't agree, but I don't think it's an unreasonable position to take either, so you won't hear an argument from me. Who would you replace him with? (Just don't say Meeks and I'll be happy)