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View Full Version : Who Is The Best Recruiter ?



NYC Duke Fan
03-09-2009, 05:04 AM
Calipari, Williams, Self, Donovan, Pitino or Calhoun ?

I didn't put Coach K in the list because Duke's academic standards probably puts him at a disadvantage in recruiting players that the other coaches can easily recruit, although in the last few years Coach K has lost out on 3 players, 2 of whom would have made an enormous difference on the team last year and this year , ( Patterson and Monroe ), and one who would probably make an enormous difference next year, ( Boynton ).

Actually though Williams and Coach K are probably on equal footing with respect to players that they can and do recruit.

Calipari, Pitino, Calhoun and to some respect Donovan recruit players from the inner cities, whereas Coach K and Williams for whatever reasons do not.

Coach K seems to have the ability and advantage in recruiting excellent white players, Singler, Paulus, Scheyer, McRoberts,Zoubek, Hurley, Laettner, Ferry, Reddick,Collins, Parks, Plumlees, Kelly. I could be mistaken but the only white players that Coach K wanted but did not get were David Lee, John Brockman and maybe Matt Bonner.

heyman25
03-09-2009, 05:43 AM
Thad Matta at Ohio State, John Calipari at Memphis State, Bill Self at Kansas, Rick Barnes at Texas, Jamie Dixon at Pitt, and Jim Calhoun at UCONN are tops to me. Jeff Capel got Willie Warren and Blake Griffin. He is coming on strong. Lorenzo Romar at Washington and Ben Howland at UCLA are very good for West Coast talent.The guy at USC (Tim ?) gets very good talent . John Beilin at Michigan, Bruce Weber at the Illini and Bob Huggins at West Virginia are good at recruiting. An unfortunately for Duke, Roy Williams and Dino Gaudio at Wake are checkmating us lately.

Channing
03-09-2009, 09:15 AM
Thad Matta at Ohio State, John Calipari at Memphis State, Bill Self at Kansas, Rick Barnes at Texas, Jamie Dixon at Pitt, and Jim Calhoun at UCONN are tops to me. Jeff Capel got Willie Warren and Blake Griffin. He is coming on strong. Lorenzo Romar at Washington and Ben Howland at UCLA are very good for West Coast talent.The guy at USC (Tim ?) gets very good talent . John Beilin at Michigan, Bruce Weber at the Illini and Bob Huggins at West Virginia are good at recruiting. An unfortunately for Duke, Roy Williams and Dino Gaudio at Wake are checkmating us lately.

Not sure where all these names are coming from:

Jamie Dixon recruits well in terms of finding players that arent highly sought after, but he doesnt get the big names. Fields, Young, and Wagner were all middle of the pack type recruits. Same thing goes for Beilein. At WVU he was a system guy who found a couple players that turned into stars for him (Pittsnogle (sp?), Gamsey (who I think came from St. Bonaventure as a transer) etc.). Bruce Weber has been anything but a good recruiter. He won with Bill Self's players, couldnt land Scheyer (who was from Chicago) and lost Eric Gordon to IU. I dont think we know how good Gaudio is yet - he was able to get Al Farouq Aminu, but has not track record of recruiting to speak of really.

Tom Floyd at USC has gotten the one-and-dones to buy into the glamour of LA for a season. I would say Ben Howland has done very well at UCLA, as he is getting top talent year in and year out. Lorenzo Romar is very average at recruiting, imo. He gets a 5 star player every couple of years, maybe two in a year, but other than that he gets the mid-tier player.

K, Self, Roy, Calhoun, Pitino, Calipari, and Matta (in the last year or two) are tops imo. Every year it seems like at least one, if not two or three McD AAs are going to their school. Another year or two at his current pace, and I think Capel will join the crown.

Tim1515
03-09-2009, 10:51 AM
I really don't think Calipari should be on this list...where would Memphis be without the NBA 1 year rule? Memphis is making a killing because guys can go there, get as many minutes as they want, don't have to worry about school and play in a weak conference so they obviously make the tourney.

Should the nba rule change Calipari wouldn't look so good.

Billy Dat
03-09-2009, 11:04 AM
This is a tough one to respond to because it all depends on your criteria:

-McDonald's All Americans on the roster?
-Players on NBA rosters?
-Top 50 recruits..by which ratings system?

At the end of the day, I think the only way to judge a coach's recruiting record is to look at their W-L record and success in the post-season. And, those trends should be informed by the ability to do it year after year.

And I know it's easy to knock Callipari, but until he has been proven to break any rules, you have to hand it to him for succeeding within the current environment. After all, not everyone thought to align themselves with Worldwide Wes:
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-28-216/William-Wesley--Tyreke-Evans--John-Calipari--and-Memphis.html

UrinalCake
03-09-2009, 11:07 AM
Yeah, it kind of depends how you define "best" recruiter? Is it getting the guys you want? And even then, does bringing in a lot of one-year players qualify as good recruiting? Georgia Tech has gotten a lot of great recruits recently, but none have stuck around long enough for the team to do much.

There's also the aspect of evaluating talent and finding guys that other schools aren't pursuing... in that department I would still put Gary Williams up there, despite his recent struggles.

All in all, if you combine the aspects of evaluating talent, landing the top guys who you want, winning games, and developing NBA players, I would have to put Roy Williams at the top right now 8-(. Five years ago I would have said Coach K.

VAGentleman05
03-09-2009, 11:15 AM
And I know it's easy to knock Callipari, but until he has been proven to break any rules, you have to hand it to him for succeeding within the current environment. After all, not everyone thought to align themselves with Worldwide Wes:
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-28-216/William-Wesley--Tyreke-Evans--John-Calipari--and-Memphis.html

Well, the guy did lose a Final Four appearance from his record because of payments to a star player. I guess it's possible to argue that he's running a cleaner ship at Memphis, but there's a lot of smoke around that program.

VAGentleman05
03-09-2009, 11:16 AM
All in all, if you combine the aspects of evaluating talent, landing the top guys who you want, winning games, and developing NBA players, I would have to put Roy Williams at the top right now 8-(. Five years ago I would have said Coach K.

I concur completely. Some of it is probably just my own ACC bias, but for my money nobody was landing stronger recruits that K in the first half of this decade, and nobody's outrecruiting Roy right now.

Channing
03-09-2009, 01:45 PM
bear in mind that there are seven (I think: Nolan, Lance, Scheyer, Henderson, Paulus, Williams, Singler) McD AA on this team. They may not have all panned out as we hoped, but this thread is about recruiting, not developing talent. 99% of the schools in the country would have jumped at the opportunity to sign any of those guys. Ergo, I think K is still pretty good.

gotham devil
03-09-2009, 02:41 PM
bear in mind that there are seven (I think: Nolan, Lance, Scheyer, Henderson, Paulus, Williams, Singler) McD AA on this team. They may not have all panned out as we hoped, but this thread is about recruiting, not developing talent. 99% of the schools in the country would have jumped at the opportunity to sign any of those guys. Ergo, I think K is still pretty good.
In terms of getting players named McDonald's all-Americans, nobody can hold a candle to The two Carolina schools.

Calhoun gets my vote. He has literally built an elite program from scratch...in a tiny state, devoid of talent. Calhoun has to go out of state and convince players to come to a cold, isolated area of northern Connecticut, 30+ miles from any remotely urban area.


I really don't think Calipari should be on this list...where would Memphis be without the NBA 1 year rule? Memphis is making a killing because guys can go there, get as many minutes as they want, don't have to worry about school and play in a weak conference so they obviously make the tourney.

Should the nba rule change Calipari wouldn't look so good.
LOL
Nobody has benefitted more from David Stern's "one year rule" than JC.

Memphis will be an even more dominant program a) if, as expected, the next CBA, which is up in the very near future, requires players to remain in collegiate basketball for a minimum of two seasons and b) they can retain John Calipari.

dgoore97
03-09-2009, 03:50 PM
a lot of people judge recruiting by how many McDonald's all-americans a team has, but i think some of the McD kids Duke recruits wouldn't be on the AA team if they were being recruited by another school. I think if Coach K wants you it's probably worth about 10-20 spots on the top 100 list. so, if a recruit is on the cusp of making it and analysts realize K (or Roy williams) wants him, he is likely to make it over the hump. but that doesn't make him a better player.. so i think you have to discount that in our case. I think others have made this point, but thought it bore mentioning here as well.

Channing
03-09-2009, 04:08 PM
a lot of people judge recruiting by how many McDonald's all-americans a team has, but i think some of the McD kids Duke recruits wouldn't be on the AA team if they were being recruited by another school. I think if Coach K wants you it's probably worth about 10-20 spots on the top 100 list. so, if a recruit is on the cusp of making it and analysts realize K (or Roy williams) wants him, he is likely to make it over the hump. but that doesn't make him a better player.. so i think you have to discount that in our case. I think others have made this point, but thought it bore mentioning here as well.

I am quite sure someone posted a statistical look at this, and how it is not true, at least not recently (several players actually went down in stock value once Duke started looking at them).

It might happen with some players, but by and large, in the era of absolute media access, it isnt as much of a problem as it was when there was very limited exposure for high school players.

crimsonandblue
03-09-2009, 04:47 PM
I am quite sure someone posted a statistical look at this, and how it is not true, at least not recently (several players actually went down in stock value once Duke started looking at them).

It might happen with some players, but by and large, in the era of absolute media access, it isnt as much of a problem as it was when there was very limited exposure for high school players.

Well, maybe. I think a lot of these kids do get a bump from being recruited by UNC and Duke. See e.g., the most ridiculous McDs of all time; Fing! And this year, UNC's Wear twins (RSCI 41 and 43, with no ranking higher than 27 and 32) made it. I think there is significant Duke/UNC bump. Which is fine. At the end of the day, it's just an all-star game.

As for Self and recruiting, he's done a good job of patchworking teams together and seemingly always has the proverbial plan B, C and D. But he's needed them and hasn't landed a McD's burger boy (assuming KU lands neither John Wall nor Lance Stephenson this year) for the past two years.

Duke fans would have apoplexy and die if that occurred. That said, I think Self is a very good recruiter.

Edouble
03-09-2009, 11:16 PM
I could be mistaken but the only white players that Coach K wanted but did not get were David Lee, John Brockman and maybe Matt Bonner.

That's a real stretch. Brett Nelson, Nick Collison, and Chris Mullin come to mind immediately, and I'm sure there are many more.

dukeballer2294
03-10-2009, 12:48 AM
Imo, at least for me theres a clear line between the top 2,
Thad Matta-Ohio St. and John Calipari-Memphis, and everybody else.

heyman25
03-10-2009, 03:33 AM
Calipari may have 3 out of the top 6 for 2009 if he gets John Wall.Matta is always getting high level talent. Duke seems to be finally getting some players in 2010. Next season 2 big white guys that play prep school ball. I hope they exceed expectations.

CameronCrazy'11
03-10-2009, 03:49 AM
K still manages to pull in around 2 burger boys a year, so he must be doing something right. Part of that is it seems like Duke can get any highly rated white player K wants.

dukelifer
03-10-2009, 10:25 PM
In terms of getting players named McDonald's all-Americans, nobody can hold a candle to The two Carolina schools.

Calhoun gets my vote. He has literally built an elite program from scratch...in a tiny state, devoid of talent. Calhoun has to go out of state and convince players to come to a cold, isolated area of northern Connecticut, 30+ miles from any remotely urban area.


LOL
Nobody has benefitted more from David Stern's "one year rule" than JC.

Memphis will be an even more dominant program a) if, as expected, the next CBA, which is up in the very near future, requires players to remain in collegiate basketball for a minimum of two seasons and b) they can retain John Calipari.

It pains me to agree with this but Calhoun has attracted and developed players who have been excellent at the college and pro levels. His two NC trumps the others as well except for Donovan who effectively won with the same team. I am not a Calhoun or UConn fan- but he has to get the nod.

FireOgilvie
04-23-2009, 12:57 AM
Thad Matta is bringing in a monster class in 2010. Three 5 star players and one 4 star player (according to Rivals):

Jared Sullinger - 6'8" top 3 player in his class, #1 on ESPN
DeShaun Thomas - #6 on Scout, PF
Jordan Sibert - #18 on Rivals, #39 on Scout, SG
Lenzelle Smith - #73 on Scout, PG/SG

Impressive.

Of course, we could always counter that:

If we get Barnes (top 3) and/or Knight (top 3)/Irving (4/5 star), we already have Dawkins (5 star), Hairston (4/5 star), and Thornton (4 star).... plus throw in Curry.

quickgtp
04-23-2009, 09:02 AM
I have to go with Cal, Roy, Matta and then Calhoun. The Burger Boys don't mean much to me because most of the time they are selected they are then bumped into the game (some of the time, IMO.)

As much as it pains me to say, Roy is on a serious tear @ UNC with his recruiting.

JimBD
04-23-2009, 10:56 AM
And I know it's easy to knock Callipari, but until he has been proven to break any rules, you have to hand it to him for succeeding within the current environment. After all, not everyone thought to align themselves with Worldwide Wes:
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-28-216/William-Wesley--Tyreke-Evans--John-Calipari--and-Memphis.html

If William Wesley recruits for Calipari, whether or not there is anything offered under the table to recruits, their family members or coaches, etc., isn't that a recruiting violation? I thought only coaches of a University were allowed to recruit players to that University.

JimBD
04-23-2009, 11:09 AM
It's hard to compare coaches mentioned in this thread as recruiters because we don't know which ones are trying to follow the rules and which ones are actively breaking the rules, although I have my suspicions. If a coach is successful in recruiting a kid because he or some booster offered the kid a significant amount of money or some other under the table benefit to come to that school, is that coach a better recruiter than someone who tried to follow the rules?

CDu
04-23-2009, 02:02 PM
It's hard to compare coaches mentioned in this thread as recruiters because we don't know which ones are trying to follow the rules and which ones are actively breaking the rules, although I have my suspicions. If a coach is successful in recruiting a kid because he or some booster offered the kid a significant amount of money or some other under the table benefit to come to that school, is that coach a better recruiter than someone who tried to follow the rules?

I think you have to assume that the results stand for themselves. You can retroactively discount someone if they're caught cheating, but otherwise you have to assume that whatever they're doing is within the rules. Is it likely that everyone is playing by the rules? No. But it's not fair to assume one guy is playing by the rules and another guy is not when neither of them have been busted. You also have to lump the staff in as part of the process, because coaches do varying degrees of the actual recruiting.

Right now, I'd say that Williams or Self is the top recruiter. But that title can vary from year to year. Williams has a long track record of recruiting success at two different universities. Calipari is making a case for himself, as is Matta at OSU. Coach K is right in there as well.

Billy Dat
04-23-2009, 02:37 PM
If William Wesley recruits for Calipari, whether or not there is anything offered under the table to recruits, their family members or coaches, etc., isn't that a recruiting violation? I thought only coaches of a University were allowed to recruit players to that University.

I mentioned Worldwise Wes mostly in jest....whenever I have a recruiting convo with someone, they seem to fall into one of two camps:

Camp A - every school cheats at recruiting, including Duke

Camp B - the schools that appear clean are clean because with the 24/7 news cycle, portable recording equipment (cell phones, etc.), permanent records of all phone and text communication and intense competition, everyone is out there looking for someone to get caught. So, if someone hasn't been caught, they must be ok.

I always try and defend Duke as being part of Camp B so until the others that I suspect, like Cal, are actually caught doing something wrong, I have to assume they are clean, too.

JimBD
04-23-2009, 03:31 PM
I mentioned Worldwise Wes mostly in jest....whenever I have a recruiting convo with someone, they seem to fall into one of two camps:

Camp A - every school cheats at recruiting, including Duke

Camp B - the schools that appear clean are clean because with the 24/7 news cycle, portable recording equipment (cell phones, etc.), permanent records of all phone and text communication and intense competition, everyone is out there looking for someone to get caught. So, if someone hasn't been caught, they must be ok.

I always try and defend Duke as being part of Camp B so until the others that I suspect, like Cal, are actually caught doing something wrong, I have to assume they are clean, too.

I still have the same question: Is it a recruiting violation if Worldwise Wes, or any other booster, actively recruits a player to go to a particular school? I thought only coaches were allowed to do that.

JimBD
04-23-2009, 03:58 PM
[QUOTE=CDu;288381]I think you have to assume that the results stand for themselves. You can retroactively discount someone if they're caught cheating, but otherwise you have to assume that whatever they're doing is within the rules. Is it likely that everyone is playing by the rules? No. But it's not fair to assume one guy is playing by the rules and another guy is not when neither of them have been busted.

Sorry, but I don't make the assumption that if you're not caught doing something wrong, you must be within the rules. Is a student who makes the top grade in the class by cheating a better student than the others just because he didn't get caught? Is a recruiter who breaks the rules to get a recruit a better recruiter than the ones who didn't just because he didn't get caught? I'm not accusing any particular coach of cheating. All I'm saying is that if some coaches are getting recruits by cheating, it's fair to say that they may be better cheaters, but it's not fair to say that they are better recruiters.

-jk
04-23-2009, 04:11 PM
I still have the same question: Is it a recruiting violation if Worldwise Wes, or any other booster, actively recruits a player to go to a particular school? I thought only coaches were allowed to do that.

In general, I think that is true, but I think there's an exception for a pre-existing relationship.

-jk

VAGentleman05
04-23-2009, 05:25 PM
Sorry, but I don't make the assumption that if you're not caught doing something wrong, you must be within the rules. Is a student who makes the top grade in the class by cheating a better student than the others just because he didn't get caught? Is a recruiter who breaks the rules to get a recruit a better recruiter than the ones who didn't just because he didn't get caught? I'm not accusing any particular coach of cheating. All I'm saying is that if some coaches are getting recruits by cheating, it's fair to say that they may be better cheaters, but it's not fair to say that they are better recruiters.


Regardless of what one suspects, though, assuming that some people (other teams of course, never our own) are cheating without any actual evidence isn't actually a very helpful thing to do. It's a little about complaining about the officiating after losing a game--it gets the message boards fired up, but in the end you still lost the game. JMO, of course...

devildownunder
04-23-2009, 11:31 PM
Regardless of what one suspects, though, assuming that some people (other teams of course, never our own) are cheating without any actual evidence isn't actually a very helpful thing to do. It's a little about complaining about the officiating after losing a game--it gets the message boards fired up, but in the end you still lost the game. JMO, of course...

Agree, except I think it's even worse -- more like blaming the refs before the game even starts, as many of our opponents have done the last few years.