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View Full Version : MBB: UNC 79, Duke 71 Post-Game Thread



Jumbo
03-08-2009, 05:15 PM
Tough loss, but plenty of good signs, too. Discuss here.

AluminumDuke
03-08-2009, 05:16 PM
I took a drink every time they mentioned Ty Lawson's stubbed toe. Too drunk to discuss the game now.

arnie
03-08-2009, 05:18 PM
Great plan of attack and as usual, very gutty performance. But when you're so limited - nothing from the post and obliterated on the boards, it takes a near perfect performance to beat the best teams.

I'm hoping that changes next year - we need something down low.

dukemsu
03-08-2009, 05:18 PM
Second half rebounding and some horrendous decisions did us in the second half.

G was clearly pretty frustrated with the lack of whistles on the drives, but not much you can do about it. Kyle looked very tired in the second half.

Not like they blew us out but I never got the least bit comfortable. They are so fast and a 7 point mini-run always seems to be around the corner.

We would have had to be perfect and gotten some breaks to win there on National Beaker Day. We got neither.

GTHC.

dukemsu

umdukie
03-08-2009, 05:18 PM
For the first time this season, I am not disappointed at a Duke loss. Carolina, quite simply, is the best team in the nation and we are just a solid top 10 team. They are more talented than us and their advantage in the post translated to an incredible rebounding edge today.

We had to shoot lights out in the second half and contain Lawson, but we were unable to do either of those things so we lost. However, the future of this team is bright and we are definitely making it to the second weekend of the tournament this year.

Next play.

DukeBlood
03-08-2009, 05:19 PM
Congrat's to UNC. I feel they had some help, but thats how it is.

That being said, Duke could of won this. They missed a few open looks, a couple of questionable calls. All in all, I like what I seen. Tough loss, but hopefully they learn from it. The new line-up really gives teams fits with its length.

Look forward to a healthy Nolan Smith returning. Could of used a little more dribble penetration.

cruxer
03-08-2009, 05:19 PM
If we could have hit a few more of our open shots out of the offense, we're in a great position to win. We played pretty well, but Carolina absolutely hit open shots and some shots that weren't open. Tough luck with Kyle being out of bounds (barely) on that late rebound that resulted in Lawson's 3-pt play.

The officiating could have been better (the first charge on Kyle?) but didn't cost us the game in any sense. Still, we played well and I feel like we can make a good run in the ACC and NCAAs.

-c

geraldsneighbor
03-08-2009, 05:20 PM
Definitely have improved since the first meeting. I was sort of stunned how much the bench was shortened, specifically having Scheyer play the entire final 20 minutes. Zoubek getting in foul trouble hurt because his height altered some shots. To keep it as close as they did after being out rebounded by 20 is amazing. I think we can still beat them, but it is obviously going to be tough. We didn't get what we needed from G tonight, and foul shots hurt. Kyle also being held in check in the second half hurt.

Let's rally the troops, get healthy, and rest up for a big weekend next weekend.

roywhite
03-08-2009, 05:22 PM
I like this team a lot, and didn't have any problem with our gameplan or effort today. Just got killed on the boards in the second half; our main guys were a little worn down.

It's tiresome to see Hansbrough get the benefit of the doubt on calls time after time after time. But he's moving on.

Jim Nantz---you got taken in by the Ty Lawson pre-game injury nonsense; thought you were a little smarter than that. That's an old one in the light blue playbook.

Looking forward to the post-season. We can definitely make a run!

kaufmjo
03-08-2009, 05:23 PM
We gotta be very happy with the play of Duke's big 3 today but VERY worried about the complete lack of support from others. EWill deserves credit as well. Carolina just REALLY good team when they play well.

To echo a comment made in the ingame thread, Duke's got some issues with the big men. Its sad but Zoubek just cant keep up with ACC big men and is a liability to team. Wish it wasnt the case but he's just 2-3 steps behind.

Anyways Jon was amazing and deserves tons of credit for keeping us in it. G has some spectacular plays and Kyle played tough

InSpades
03-08-2009, 05:23 PM
1st off, can we not cry about the refs. It makes us sound like Maryland fans. We definitely got the short end of the stick on a few (the 4th on Kyle being the biggest) but that's not why we lost the game.

We lost this game because aside from Scheyer we shot 15 of 43 (35%) from the floor and 5 of 18 (28%) from 3. That combined w/ getting outrebounded badly is not going to win you games against good teams.

That's not to say we played badly... Scheyer had probably the best game I've seen him have. To score 24 points on 7 shots (10 if you count the ones he was fouled on) is amazing. Kyle played a great 1st half but he struggled in the 2nd half. If 1 or 2 of those 2nd half 3s went down it's a different ball game. Gerald just didn't seem to have it today. Not effective shooting from the field (he was 4 of 11 and had like 2 or 3 dunks) and had too many turnovers. He made some spectacular drives though and had some nice dishes. Elliot is not a very good 3-point shooter (yet).

Overall I think we played a pretty good game. If they are the best team in the country then Duke is not very far behind. Let's hope we can get a rematch in a week!

eddiehaskell
03-08-2009, 05:23 PM
I hate this loss, but I don't think we can be TOO sad about the way Duke finished the season. Think about where we were 3 weeks ago. Winning 5 in a row and losing to UNC by 8 - we are in good shape.

NYC Duke Fan
03-08-2009, 05:23 PM
For the first time this season, I am not disappointed at a Duke loss. Carolina, quite simply, is the best team in the nation and we are just a solid top 10 team. They are more talented than us and their advantage in the post translated to an incredible rebounding edge today.

We had to shoot lights out in the second half and contain Lawson, but we were unable to do either of those things so we lost. However, the future of this team is bright and we are definitely making it to the second weekend of the tournament this year.

Next play.

That would mean the Sweet 16. I am not so sure that I would be happy with only a Sweet 16. I know, or belive anyway, that this team will not win the tournament but I am hoping for more than a Sweet 16

CAT Blue Devil
03-08-2009, 05:24 PM
I echo the feel of missed opportunity on this one. In Cameron, Duke was run over in the second half. Here, it seemed some credit should go to Carloina's toughness putting Duke in positions where they were taking questionable shots. A couple of key decisions and fouls being called differently, and Carolina would have had some serious game pressure on their shoulders.

I think the look in K's eyes a the end fortells one more session coming up in this one.

Jumbo
03-08-2009, 05:24 PM
A little quiet, so I guess I'll reply to myself. I'm enthused. Granted, I was enthused after the first game against Carolina, but this is different. For the first time in a while, I really see the way this team is constructed for long-term success.

Gerald, Kyle and Jon are all on form going into postseason play. Moving Jon to the point has made our offense so much more efficient. We hung tough with Lance and Jon playing on ankles that surely more painful than Lawson's injured toe. We hung tough without Nolan Smith. We hung tough when Singler got in foul trouble. We hung tough through some brutal calls (Singler's "charge" against Frasor on the break, Singler's "fourth foul" when Hansbrough flopped). We hung tough even though we couldn't play Paulus in the second half because there was just no one for him to guard, shortening our rotation. We hung tough even when it seemed like every mistake we made got magnified -- misses turning into long rebounds turning into easy baskets and quick 4-or 5-point swings. We hung tough because we have a good team.

I'm looking forward to everyone returning healthy, and it's clear what Nolan can bring to this team when he gets back. Getting 20-some minutes off the bench from him will be huge. We can increase our ball pressure. Hopefully, that will keep our D from giving up such a high shooting percentage. We'll get decent contributions from Zoubek and McClure. Paulus probably will be relegated to spot duty, but maybe he can hit a big shot or two. And we have a terrific starting lineup.

This is a really good team. It can keep getting better. Let's hope the next four days are filled with plenty of rest, improvement and game-planning and that we see a strong performance in Atlanta.

Faison1
03-08-2009, 05:26 PM
Tough to swallow......

I wish we had some answer for Lawson and Handbag.....and if we did, I wish they would stick around another year ( I know he can't) so we could beat them.....can't stand to see that guy (Hansbro) win.....6-2 against Duke.

Ugh.....

I deleted what I was going to write, because it would be too critical.....so I guess I can only hope for better times.......

JDev
03-08-2009, 05:26 PM
Tough loss to a good team on the road. I see some ref discussions, and there were some big plays that stand out. One, IIRC, was when Singler got a tough rebound in traffic with about two minutes left and Duke down by three, and he got called for stepping on the end line. He was bumped and that could have been called just as easily, but alas. Instead, Lawson converts a 3-point play, and instead of Kyle on the line with Duke down three, UNC is up by 6. That was the biggest exchange of the game.
That being said, that stuff was certainly not the reason for the end result, and Duke fans definitely can't blame refs. Much like the first game, UNC shot really well in the second half, while Duke had a cold streak (or two), and UNC absolutely killed Duke on the boards. That is why they got the W.

OldSchool
03-08-2009, 05:27 PM
Defensively, we did enough against a UNC team that generally executed very well on offense. But only 32 points for Duke in the second half -- that's not enough to get it done against most ACC teams.

Hansbrough is the only player in the ACC that gets those charging calls while sliding laterally against his man.

captmojo
03-08-2009, 05:28 PM
...yet it will happen. The frustration lies with the refs. It isn't terping when it's true. When these three sit to review, they should come away feeling quite embarrassed. :o The missed traveling violations. (these cut both ways) The foul calling, or lack thereof, was awful. (Beaker's reach-in prior to the flop was so obvious. Two hands go in, two legs kick out.) The NBA style continuations on unc's shots. The forth foul call on Kyle. Terrible.


WFMY cut away from the MVC game just in time for tip-off. Now their news is dominated by the fantastic celebrations forthcoming for Franklin St. Sickening.


The tournament is gonna be a bloodbath. :mad: It makes for good TV.

CoachJ10
03-08-2009, 05:28 PM
Just didn't get the breaks we needed today. A bunch of open shots that didn't fall for us, the loose-balls, the rebounds, the couple of those "and-ones" that we didn't convert...and of course the ridiculous shots that UNC hit (Beeker's 3s, pretty much anything Ellington shot and Deon "I only suit up for Duke games" Thomson). Frustrating game...we could have won this game.

And this is w/o even mentioning the refs. Wow...home-cooking was definitely the case today. Must be nice to be a Tarheel when you get games officiated like this.

Also, I listened to the entire game...and I am not sure I heard Clark Kellogg say ONE positive thing about Duke. Can we just get one announcer who is not pre-disposed to not liking us? The likes of Elmore, Dykes, et al is bordering on ridiculous (the G Man is the only professional announcer around).

CAT Blue Devil
03-08-2009, 05:30 PM
Just didn't get the breaks we needed today. A bunch of open shots that didn't fall for us, the loose-balls, the rebounds, the couple of those "and-ones" that we didn't convert...and of course the ridiculous shots that UNC hit (Beeker's 3s, pretty much anything Ellington shot and Deon "I only suit up for Duke games" Thomson). Frustrating game...we could have won this game.

And this is w/o even mentioning the refs. Wow...home-cooking was definitely the case today. Must be nice to be a Tarheel when you get games officiated like this.

Also, I listened to the entire game...and I am not sure I heard Clark Kellogg say ONE positive thing about Duke. Can we just get one announcer who is not pre-disposed to not liking us? The likes of Elmore, Dykes, et al is bordering on ridiculous (the G Man is the only professional announcer around).


I thought Kellogg was very complimentary about Duke's offensive efficiency and their ability to control the speed of the game.

eddiehaskell
03-08-2009, 05:31 PM
This is a really good team. It can keep getting better. Let's hope the next four days are filled with plenty of rest, improvement and game-planning and that we see a strong performance in Atlanta.I agree. This team has made a HUGE turnaround. A few less unlucky breaks (i.e. down 4 and Singler rebounds with a heel out of bounds) and this team plays what is likely the best team in the country to a 2 or 3 point game.

Dukefan4Life
03-08-2009, 05:32 PM
I could go into great detail why we lost, but ill keep it short and quick..Too many jumpers not enough high percentage shots and killed on the boards

riksmits
03-08-2009, 05:33 PM
I stopped reading after like 5 replies...the refs are not the reason Duke lost. UNC is a better team. They exploited the post/rebounding weakness well. That combined with a very limited bench + some sub-par decisions were the end of it. I thought UNC's defense vastly improved compared to other times I have watched them this year.

All of that being said, there is no reason Duke can't win the ACC tourney. UNC is I think a clear #1 team, just because Pitt won't be able to slow them down that much. Nothing to take away from Duke, I would put them top 6, especially with the big lineup now.

One question/comment....does it bother anyone else that there were no zone sets on any defensive series today? Without a few breaks + shooting lights out from 3, it will be very difficult for Duke to beat UNC this year. Mainly because of Lawson's ability to penetrate.

So why not play a little zone? It's not like the rebounding can get any worse. It saves some defensive energy especially if we are only going 7 deep. If Green, Ellington, and Frasor light us up, okay then big deal. But obviously no one on Duke (or anyone in the country) can stop Lawson. I just think a zone may be able to slow them down.

dukemsu
03-08-2009, 05:33 PM
I agree that saying that the officials were bad today (by any standard, they were) does not equal Terping.

Duke got killed on the glass and shot poorly in the second half. Therein lies the blame for the loss. But that does not take away from the fact that the officiating was awful on more plays than it should have been in a game of this magnitude. Poor performance.

I have never seen a college player get the benefit of the doubt more than Hans. Not Cookie Monster. Not Duncan. Not Shane.

dukemsu

The1Bluedevil
03-08-2009, 05:34 PM
Gerald please come back next year and work on your left hand, then be player of the year lead Duke to the final four and be a top 5 pick.

hurleyfor3
03-08-2009, 05:35 PM
This game was very winnable until Scheyer (I think it was Scheyer; I watched the game in an airport bar) stepped on the baseline after grabbing the rebound with about a minute to go. I'll take that.

We're not as good as Pitt or UConn, so I was rather indifferent as to whether we beat unc.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-08-2009, 05:35 PM
That was a very good game by Duke and a lucky win by UNC.
Unfortunately for Duke, they were just overmatched and ran out of gas.

I'm a UNC fan, and this UNC team has the dumbest basketball I.Q. I have ever seen from a highly rated team. They didn't deserve to win this game and I now don't think there is any way they will win a NC with these players.
For as many dumb plays they made in the first half, they were worse in the second.

Faison1
03-08-2009, 05:38 PM
Stop complaining about the refs!!!!!

Let me get this straight....when opposing teams say the refs stole the game, we think it's ridiculous....but when the calls don't go our way, it was the refs fault?!?!?! Or home cooking?!?!?! C'mon!!!! Have a little more insight than blaming the loss on the refs, please!!!!!!!!!

JDev
03-08-2009, 05:38 PM
That was a very good game by Duke and a lucky win by UNC.
Unfortunately for Duke, they were just overmatched and ran out of gas.

I'm a UNC fan, and this UNC team has the dumbest basketball I.Q. I have ever seen from a highly rated team. They didn't deserve to win this game and I now don't think there is any way they will win a NC with these players.
For as many dumb plays they made in the first half, they were worse in the second.

I don't know if I would agree with that, but you certainly watch them more closely than I, or many Duke fans do. What sorts of things are you referring to?

Dukefan4Life
03-08-2009, 05:38 PM
ZONE! i have been saying this for years now! why not play a little zone!!! this would help us so much! it would make average players like Z and lance more effect in rebounding for sure! K just cant help himself i guess.. its live and die with the man2man.. im ok with man2man. but you have to coach with the talent you have, and the sitution of the game!

InSpades
03-08-2009, 05:38 PM
1st off, the hating on Kyle is ridiculous. He missed some shots in the 2nd half but he carried us in the 1st half. Last I checked 1st half points count as much as 2nd half points.

1 thing I was yelling at the TV about... with about 3-4 minutes left K took out Gerald and Kyle was already sitting. It was a defensive possession so it wasn't that bad really. The lineup at that point was something like... Scheyer, Williams, McClure, Thomas and maybe Zoubek? I figured K would call a timeout as that lineup is not very effective. Scheyer hit a somewhat forced 3 and of course hit it cause he was on fire all game. The next possession K still didn't call a timeout to get Singler and Henderson back in the game. Scheyer eventually had to call a timeout with about 10 on the shot clock and Henderson ended up forcing a bad shot as the clock runs down. Far be it from me to be critical of K but... I guess I just was.

eddiehaskell
03-08-2009, 05:38 PM
This game was very winnable until Scheyer (I think it was Scheyer; I watched the game in an airport bar) stepped on the baseline after grabbing the rebound with about a minute to go. I'll take that.
I believe it was Singler and it looked like he was bumped. But yeah, that would've been a huge possession to have.:(

eddiehaskell
03-08-2009, 05:39 PM
Oh yeah....and who knew Hansbrough would make TWO 3s??????????

It seems like this guy loves shooting 3s against Duke.

Son of Mojo
03-08-2009, 05:40 PM
I think we played well but still had that bad 8 on 5 disadvantage on the court. There were too many plays to keep recounting but it's apparent there was certainly a double standard out there. Really, do you think Coach would've gone forehead-to-forehead with a ref for no reason? No fouls called on them, walks on both teams, a few terrible no call double dribbles, and some serious phantom fouls on us made for a hard game to watch in spots (and my voice is going to pay for it at work tomorrow). On the positive end of the spectrum, Jon played very well, Kyle did too, and Gerald had some moments but not as many as we've gotten accustomed to as of late. We really had no bench or rebounding presence today which, despite the horribly called game, are two big factors that did us in. We also have to show some more concentration when it comes to FT (that's Free Throw for that one troll from earlier in the week.....) shooting--Gerald missing those 3 at the end blew me away. Let's find out who we'll play Friday and see if we can pull off a season ending 9 game win streak (power of positive thinking) and cheer again. NEXT!!!

KrazyKfan
03-08-2009, 05:40 PM
For the first time this season, I am not disappointed at a Duke loss. Carolina, quite simply, is the best team in the nation and we are just a solid top 10 team. They are more talented than us and their advantage in the post translated to an incredible rebounding edge today.

We had to shoot lights out in the second half and contain Lawson, but we were unable to do either of those things so we lost. However, the future of this team is bright and we are definitely making it to the second weekend of the tournament this year.

Next play.

Completely agree. On one point of disagreement, however, I would say that I am very glad that their is a good chance I will never have to watch Tyler Hansbrough draw a total [EDITED FOR LANGUAGE] charge on Singler. That being said, it wasn't the refs fault we lost. We needed a bigger game from G today, and we didn't get. ACC Tourney prediction: Duke loses to Wake, UNC wins ACC. NCAA Tourney: Duke goes to Sweet 16, maybe Elite 8, UNC loses in Elite 8. Ty Lawson plays the worst D in the country, so there's no way they're winning the tourney.

hurleyfor3
03-08-2009, 05:41 PM
I'm a UNC fan, and this UNC team has the dumbest basketball I.Q. I have ever seen from a highly rated team.

Anyone who has seen the DePaul/St. Joseph's game from 1981 would disagree.

OldSchool
03-08-2009, 05:41 PM
ZONE! i have been saying this for years now! why not play a little zone!!! this would help us so much! it would make average players like Z and lance more effect in rebounding for sure!

Zone wouldn't help our rebounding, it would make it worse. Today even playing man-to-man we missed some key block-outs.

Faison1
03-08-2009, 05:41 PM
Outside of Duke, I am cheering for Pitt to win the whole thing.........no Uconn, no UNC.....maybe a final four of Pitt, Duke, Memphis, and.....and....and Wake....yes, Wake would be good to see.......

dukemsu
03-08-2009, 05:42 PM
Completely agree. On one point of disagreement, however, I would say that I am very glad that their is a good chance I will never have to watch Tyler Hansbrough draw a total bullsh*t charge on Singler. That being said, it wasn't the refs fault we lost. We needed a bigger game from G today, and we didn't get. ACC Tourney prediction: Duke loses to Wake, UNC wins ACC. NCAA Tourney: Duke goes to Sweet 16, maybe Elite 8, UNC loses in Elite 8. Ty Lawson plays the worst D in the country, so there's no way they're winning the tourney.

On UNC's chances, they had better hope someone takes out Pitt for them. That is a matchup nightmare for them.

dukemsu

The1Bluedevil
03-08-2009, 05:43 PM
ZONE! i have been saying this for years now! why not play a little zone!!! this would help us so much! it would make average players like Z and lance more effect in rebounding for sure! K just cant help himself i guess.. its live and die with the man2man.. im ok with man2man. but you have to coach with the talent you have, and the sitution of the game!

It is more difficult to rebound out of a zone. Zone would work against possibly cutting down the opportunities of Lawson getting into the lane, but Carolina would still have destroyed Duke on the glass either way. In a zone you find yourself boxing out air more often then not and more long rebounds occur. Which happened tonight anyways.

Indoor66
03-08-2009, 05:45 PM
Outside of Duke, I am cheering for Pitt to win the whole thing.........no Uconn, no UNC.....maybe a final four of Pitt, Duke, Memphis, and.....and....and Wake....yes, Wake would be good to see.......

I agree with you. After Duke, I become a HUGE Pitt fan.

JDev
03-08-2009, 05:45 PM
Outside of Duke, I am cheering for Pitt to win the whole thing.........no Uconn, no UNC.....maybe a final four of Pitt, Duke, Memphis, and.....and....and Wake....yes, Wake would be good to see.......

I think Pitt is the team to beat. Though if they are #1, UNC is 1A. If they had the mental toughness and defensive desire Pitt did, they would be unreal. But, alas, they do not. I think Fields probably matches up as well as anyone with Lawson, and I think Blair/Young are better than Hansbrough/insert any other Heel.

BlueintheFace
03-08-2009, 05:46 PM
Destructively negative comments about Singler

uhhhhh, what? Pitt last year. The last two games before Carolina of THIS SEASON! I'm afraid that you have (a) not watched all of the games or (b) not understood them.

I am actually VERY ENCOURAGED by this game.

- We controlled tempo REALLY WELL
- We played solid defense down low and made them earn the buckets on the post
- We ran the offense very well for most of the game and shot the ball pretty well as a result
- We were aggressive
- We fouled Hansbrough out (the only time in his career I think)
- All of this was done with a shortened bench (No Nolan) and with Singler in foul trouble down the stretch (which was crap)

We had some tough calls go against us and missed a few opportunities, but honestly we played like a top tier team. We just ran into THE BEST team in the country. They are so incredibly offensively gifted (some of those shots were crazy) and actually dug in on defense today. We barely ever turned the ball over and they still beat us in the halfcourt game.

I can't quite explain it, but I am very optimistic moving in to the ACC tournament. If we could have rebounded a bit better, we could have beaten the best team in the country on the road on their senior night. That's pretty good. I know one thing though, I don't want to play them again.

Good game boys, let's rest up.

marinbobbyduhon
03-08-2009, 05:46 PM
Destructively negative comments about Kyle Singler

On the positive side, great performance from Scheyer, and a pretty good team game on the road against a great team and with the refs against us. In a few days, hopefully the positives will win out. I hope we face UNC again in the ACC title game.

So are you going to say next that G isn't a clutch player, either; since this was a very quiet game for him and he certainly didn't assert himself much in this game.

I thought we were hurt more by the lack of decent bench play (where was Paulus in this game) and the fact that they way out rebounded us. Don't lay this on the zebras.

77devil
03-08-2009, 05:47 PM
At least the Duke fans outnumbered the holes at the Palazzio Sports Book in Vegas. Is it my dark blue tinted glasses or did every block/charge call go against us? The one in transition between Singler and Frasior was a big momentum shift and Singler's 4th foul charge call against Hanstravel was questionable.

riksmits
03-08-2009, 05:48 PM
It is more difficult to rebound out of a zone. Zone would work against possibly cutting down the opportunities of Lawson getting into the lane, but Carolina would still have destroyed Duke on the glass either way. In a zone you find yourself boxing out air more often then not and more long rebounds occur. Which happened tonight anyways.

More difficult to REBOUND? I didn't realize it could get any more difficult than it already is against a team who just abuses Duke on the boards.

My point in it is that it can't hurt. Unless Duke shoots > 45% from 3 + UNC shoots under 50% from the field, they cannot beat UNC this year. Lawson is too good. And while they've contained Hansbrough, Deon Thompson has been a force.

Greg_Newton
03-08-2009, 05:48 PM
It was kind of like watching us play very well against an NBA team. I have a feeling this UNC squad will be one of those you look back on in 5 years and say "Wow, can you believe the NBA talent they had on that roster??" Almost too much talent for one cohesive team. Still, we had them right where we wanted with a 2-point game under 3 minutes to go, they just had too many weapons. A few lucky plays/calls here, a foot on the line there (he wasn't pushed, watch it in slow-mo), and they pulled away in the last minute. Hendo didn't really seem to be feeling it today, which may have had something to do with why no one really stepped up near the end.

I thought the refs were pretty consistent... specifically, they continued to consistently bail out Lawson whenever he drove and did not score and Hansbrough whenever he threw his elbows into a defender and flailed about wildly while shooting a 12 foot double-pump fade-away. But, that was to be expected, I suppose.

I am a little disappointed this wasn't a coming out party of sorts for MP though. That would have been nice going into the tournament. Guess he's on the shelf until next year.

And as for Singler, give him a break. He's made huge plays before on both ends of the floor, and let's not forget (although it's easy sometimes) that he IS only a sophomore. G is our established go to guy in the clutch, and he will come through more often than not.

Overall, no reason at all to jump ship over lack of an inside game/depth/anything else... once Lance gets back to his old self and we get Nolan back, we'll be fine. Not a final four favorite, but a dangerous 2 seed that could sneak up on some people this year.

zingit
03-08-2009, 05:48 PM
They shot very well from 3 tonight, 6 of 12. Even Hansbrough hit 2. So I'm not sure a zone would have been the best idea.

I had low expectations for this game, given our injury issues, the fact that it was in the Dean Dome, and of course, Carolina's skill. So I'm trying not to be disappointed. But still, this hurts. We had chances to win this game.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-08-2009, 05:48 PM
I don't know if I would agree with that, but you certainly watch them more closely than I, or many Duke fans do. What sorts of things are you referring to?

Fouling a 3 point shooter THREE different times in one game.

Up 7 under 4 to go (I think) DG gets a big block, turns and tries a weak full court bounce pass that my mother could pick off.

DG forced at least three bad outside shots late in the game, but made them.

Once, UNC was up 5 and under 4 to go,(I think) DG forces a three 5 seconds into the shot clock, misses, TL gets the long rebound, and immediately fires up another one that bricked.

Just a few I can think of off hand...

BlueintheFace
03-08-2009, 05:48 PM
ZONE! i have been saying this for years now! why not play a little zone!!! this would help us so much! it would make average players like Z and lance more effect in rebounding for sure! K just cant help himself i guess.. its live and die with the man2man.. im ok with man2man. but you have to coach with the talent you have, and the sitution of the game!

Zones hurt rebounding. We needed to be BETTER at rebounding.

Saratoga2
03-08-2009, 05:50 PM
I think we all should be proud of the way the team has developed over the past 6 games. Clearly moving Scheyer to point and Williams into the lineup have been the critical changes.

I don't have the stats yet, but clearly Jon was money offensively and I wished he would have taken mored shots down the stretch. I don't believe he turned the ball over once and he also had at least two steals and several rebounds. He has matured into a wonderful player.

Henderson has been magnificent over the last 6 games and played well today. In some cases he was guarding Hansbrough on a switch. His weakness in my view, is that his ball handling is a little insecure and when he tries to force it inside, he can turn the ball over. I think he was also gassed at the end.

Singler too has been playing well and went off early. He probably was our high scorer, but his shot was off and he started to force the ball more than he should have. I think another year, when he has a little more maturity, he will not force the ball quite as much.

Elliot gave us all we could expect, with defense, rebounding and he iis an offensive threat, something none of our other subs pose.

Paulus was in and out quickly when he couldn't hit his shots and was ineffective guarding, except he did have one stea;

Of our bigs, I thought Zoubek was the better when compared to Thomas. In a game like that, he is foul prone, and coach K has him guarding well away from the basket, where he tends to pick up fouls. No doubt Thomas was hurting today, but he seldom seems to be in the right spot to rebound and he gives up reach in fouls.

All-in-all, it was a very good effort, and with Nolan returning, we will have another quick, long guard who can provide some offense when in. Our chief weakness now is with the Center position. Some of us were hoping Plumley would show something, since neither Thomas or Zoubek have been more than journeymen. Alas, to date, Plumley hasn't shown enough to warrant replacing our others.

We can go into the tournament and know that we can beat any team some days and most teams any day.

eddiehaskell
03-08-2009, 05:50 PM
It seems like Hansbrough picks up a lot of calls by jumping into the defensive player. Just because there is contact doesn't mean the defensive player committed a foul. Like others have said, I don't think he'll get these calls at the next level.

JDev
03-08-2009, 05:51 PM
Another factor to keep in mind that a few have mentioned is the injury situation. I think Thomas's lower leg injury is as severe or more so than Lawson (though Lawson is more important overall to his team). Nolan out is the biggest. Not having a former starter who spent the first half of the year as a double figure scorer doesn't make things easier, despite any line-up changes. It will be great to get these guys back to around 100%, and hopefully they will be by Friday.

Jumbo
03-08-2009, 05:51 PM
Also, I listened to the entire game...and I am not sure I heard Clark Kellogg say ONE positive thing about Duke. Can we just get one announcer who is not pre-disposed to not liking us? The likes of Elmore, Dykes, et al is bordering on ridiculous (the G Man is the only professional announcer around).

Kellogg was constantly praising Singler versatility and Scheyer's overall performance. He spent a good amount of time in the first half talking about Duke's offensive execution, how well they spread the floor, etc. And he repeatedly talked about how high-level a game it was. Are you sure you didn't have the game on mute? ;)

BlueintheFace
03-08-2009, 05:51 PM
Stop complaining about the refs!!!!!

Let me get this straight....when opposing teams say the refs stole the game, we think it's ridiculous....but when the calls don't go our way, it was the refs fault?!?!?! Or home cooking?!?!?! C'mon!!!! Have a little more insight than blaming the loss on the refs, please!!!!!!!!!

I don't see a lot of people blaming the loss on the refs. Everyone seems to feel that a few close calls went Carolina's way and that is probably true. It was frustrating, yes, but most people here are not blaming the loss on the refs at all.

Settle Down. (insert optional line of exclamation points here ;))

RepoMan
03-08-2009, 05:52 PM
We hung tough through some brutal calls (Singler's "charge" against Frasor on the break, Singler's "fourth foul" when Hansbrough flopped).

Living in Carolina and working with beaucoup Heel fans, I have had to hear about Duke "flopping" for eons. Well, I don't want to hear it anymore because H is an epic flopper. For a dude over 250 pounds, it takes nothing to knock him over. (Sadly, his flopping resulted in me having to explain "Wussy" to a 5 year old.)

With regard to the game, we played really good. We controlled the tempo. Few turnovers. (Scheyer running the O has been a revelation.) A few bad breaks against a real good team playing at home. It happens.

One thing I'd like to see is one more solid contributer off the bench. Fortunately, we have exactly what we need in Nolan Smith. When he comes back, he just needs to put the "point guard" concept out of his mind and play ball. With that extra help from the bench, we'll be solid.

BlueintheFace
03-08-2009, 05:52 PM
It seems like Hansbrough picks up a lot of calls by jumping into the defensive player. Just because there is contact doesn't mean the defensive player committed a foul. Like others have said, I don't think he'll get these calls at the next level.

Welcome to the last 4 years of carolina basketball... haha

TNDukeFan
03-08-2009, 05:53 PM
I agree with Jumbo about Clark Kellogg.
And sign me up with those who don't think Duke lost because of the refs, but are sick of Tyler getting all the calls anyway.

Jumbo
03-08-2009, 05:55 PM
ZONE! i have been saying this for years now! why not play a little zone!!! this would help us so much! it would make average players like Z and lance more effect in rebounding for sure! K just cant help himself i guess.. its live and die with the man2man.. im ok with man2man. but you have to coach with the talent you have, and the sitution of the game!

Apparently you haven't been watching a lot of Duke basketball this season, because we've played a lot of 1-3-1, including basically the entire second half/OT against Miami. Problem is, we just don't play it that well. And our defensive rebounding issues are only compounded by playing zone.

riksmits
03-08-2009, 05:55 PM
Zones hurt rebounding. We needed to be BETTER at rebounding.

UNC has Hansbrough, Zeller, Deon Thompson, Ed Davis, and Danny Green.

2 (maybe 3) of those 5 are on the court at all times.

Duke counters with....Zoubek, Henderson, Singler, McClure, Lance.

UNC rebounding >>>>>>>>> Duke rebounding.


Like I said, it can't get much worse.

captmojo
03-08-2009, 05:56 PM
Kellogg was constantly praising Singler versatility and Scheyer's overall performance. He spent a good amount of time in the first half talking about Duke's offensive execution, how well they spread the floor, etc. And he repeatedly talked about how high-level a game it was. Are you sure you didn't have the game on mute? ;)

I stand with you here. I heard the same compliments.

eddiehaskell
03-08-2009, 05:58 PM
Welcome to the last 4 years of carolina basketball... hahaThat's what makes it so freakin' annoying. The defensive player puts his arms straight up, Hansbrough turns at a angle, jumps in with his off arm protecting the ball from the opposing player and pushes the ball up with his right hand. Hopefully, the refs in the NCAA tourney wont fall for his antics.

Regenman
03-08-2009, 05:59 PM
I'm somewhat confused by some of the responses here.

It's a good thing that we held the game close because a starter for at least the last 2 years can't even contribute off the bench because he can't guard anyone on the UNC roster? Do you see something implicitly wrong with the logic there? Instead of reveling in that, I'd be asking the question why Paulus can't contribute in his last UNC game (recruiting issue, developmental issue, etc.).

For more than half the game, we only had 4 people score. We had two McDonald AAs (a junior and a senior) that scored 2 pts combined. Remember when folks were saying that Thomas was outplaying Wright at the McDonald AA practices?

We've lost 3 games in a row to our biggest rival and we're 3-7 in the last 10 games (I think). Let's not blame the refs......

weezie
03-08-2009, 06:02 PM
Hopefully, the refs in the NCAA tourney wont fall for his antics.

I dunno....everybody else out there is absolutely starry-eyed when contemplating the wonder that is the Tbangs.

eddiehaskell
03-08-2009, 06:05 PM
We've lost 3 games in a row to our biggest rival and we're 3-7 in the last 10 games (I think). Let's not blame the refs......There is no doubt that UNC has had the advantage for a while. They've found a good nucleus of players in Lawson, Ellington, Green and Hanbrough. Luckily, all these guys are probably gone next year. If Singler and Hendo come back next year, I don't think there will be any doubt that Duke will finally gain back the advantage.

calltheobvious
03-08-2009, 06:05 PM
Fouling a 3 point shooter THREE different times in one game.

Up 7 under 4 to go (I think) DG gets a big block, turns and tries a weak full court bounce pass that my mother could pick off.

DG forced at least three bad outside shots late in the game, but made them.

Once, UNC was up 5 and under 4 to go,(I think) DG forces a three 5 seconds into the shot clock, misses, TL gets the long rebound, and immediately fires up another one that bricked.

Just a few I can think of off hand...

Thanks for the perspective, Wheat. It's nice that you have an eye for some UNC breaks that have nothing to do with the officials (who were nowhere near swinging this game).

As I watched the game, it seemed like Carolina converted one tough shot after another. Ellington made two or three absolute circus shots at the rim; he hit a couple of threes with hands right in his eyes; Hansbrough hits two threes in the first half; it's Duke, so a 3-ball decides to fall for Frasor.

Yes, Ellington struggled from the line, but Carolina still benefitted from a substantial amount of luck offensively.

Duke's game-plan was what it had to be. Slowing tempo was the only way to stay in this one. If a couple of those tough Carolina shots don't fall this game goes to the wire, the lopsided rebounds notwithstanding.

I like our chances next week with this team. If we can get everybody healthy in two weeks, I love our chances.

Great effort today, guys. Next play.

BlueintheFace
03-08-2009, 06:06 PM
UNC has Hansbrough, Zeller, Deon Thompson, Ed Davis, and Danny Green.

2 (maybe 3) of those 5 are on the court at all times.

Duke counters with....Zoubek, Henderson, Singler, McClure, Lance.

UNC rebounding >>>>>>>>> Duke rebounding.


Like I said, it can't get much worse.

I'm not trying to be mean here, but you are clearly incorrect.

When we played them earlier in the season we were basically even on rebounds, pulling down just three less than them in a game with more possessions and a larger final margin of victory for Carolina.

Additionally, we have been a pretty good rebounding team all season long while not playing zone. It can actually get a whole lot worse and has when we have played zone against a few teams. When we ran zone consistently against BC (a very average rebounding team with no serious big man presence) we got out rebounded by that same margin of three.

I hope you see that the numbers do not support your argument.

Greg_Newton
03-08-2009, 06:07 PM
Elliot Williams did a phenomenal job on Lawson today. It was the first time I've ever seen anyone from Duke actually stay in front of him consistently. Lawson was bailed out on several drives (one foul that looked to be a clean strip by a well-positioned EWill on a layup attempt, another on a out-of-control fast break layup that I saw no contact on in slow-mo), but if you take away his FTs, he only had 4 points (half of which came on that 3-point play). When Lawson plays against a player that can match his quickness and athleticism, it seems to get in his head.

And LT was playing phenomenal before he got injured. It's difficult for an energy guy to be effective playing hurt. If we can get him back to peak form by the tourney, that will be just as important as getting Nolan back.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-08-2009, 06:09 PM
Everybody knows I don't think the officials in the ACC are very good and should all be replaced. But, while there were some poor calls both ways, I don't think they were the difference in the game.

I just don't see the calls that favor TH as much as you guys seem to.
That TH "flop" was a good defensive play, just like that nice acting job by GH when TH got the third foul.
The call on Deon when he got tied up with Thomas late looked like Thomas hooked him down to me...but whatever, none of these calls were game changing calls.

JDev
03-08-2009, 06:10 PM
There is no doubt that UNC has had the advantage for a while. They've found a good nucleus of players in Lawson, Ellington, Green and Hanbrough. Luckily, all these guys are probably gone next year. If Singler and Hendo come back next year, I don't think there will be any doubt that Duke will finally gain back the advantage.

It is just how the rivalry goes; ebbs and flows. If you look back at the time from 1999-2004 Duke won something like 14 out of 16 against UNC (my numbers might not be exactly right, but I think they are close). Duke will have their time back on top, and it might be in the near future, as you said.

calltheobvious
03-08-2009, 06:11 PM
That's what makes it so freakin' annoying. The defensive player puts his arms straight up, Hansbrough turns at a angle, jumps in with his off arm protecting the ball from the opposing player and pushes the ball up with his right hand. Hopefully, the refs in the NCAA tourney wont fall for his antics.

Sorry. That foul wasn't on Thomas, who did indeed have his hands straight up. It was on Henderson, who came over with very late help and did make some contact on Hansbrough's arms. Bad, bad decision by G.

Next.

BlueintheFace
03-08-2009, 06:12 PM
The minutes breakdown is VERY interesting.

Henderson- 35 minutes
Singler- 38 minutes
Scheyer- 39 Minutes
Thomas- 31 minutes
Williams- 38 minutes

McClure- 6 minutes
Paulus- 6 minutes
Zoubek- 7 minutes


Not very many minutes for Dave... I guess K really wanted his firepower on the floor.

We really could use a healthy Nolan Smith

riksmits
03-08-2009, 06:15 PM
I'm not trying to be mean here, but you are clearly incorrect.

When we played them earlier in the season we were basically even on rebounds, pulling down just three less than them in a game with more possessions and a larger final margin of victory for Carolina.

Additionally, we have been a pretty good rebounding team all season long while not playing zone. It can actually get a whole lot worse and has when we have played zone against a few teams. When we ran zone consistently against BC (a very average rebounding team with no serious big man presence) we got out rebounded by that same margin of three.

I hope you see that the numbers do not support your argument.

And I'm confused why we ran zone vs. a team like BC compared to UNC.

Lawson won both games for them. I'm not saying we should play it the entire game, but throwing it out there on some series here and there I don't think is a terrible idea.

It would throw off their offense. The double ball screens at the top of the key would be much less effective and it would slow down if not eliminate the ability to penetrate.

Obviously it opens up the 3 ball much more for UNC, but they still have to hit the shots.

Chicago 1995
03-08-2009, 06:15 PM
. . .Carolina, quite simply, is the best team in the nation and we are just a solid top 10 team. . . .

We are a solid top ten team. No doubt.

UNC's not the best team in the country. I doubt they'd have finished better than 4th in the Big East. They are plenty talented, and they are a good team, but they aren't the best in the nation, let alone as clearly as you seem to think.

eddiehaskell
03-08-2009, 06:16 PM
Sorry. That foul wasn't on Thomas, who did indeed have his hands straight up. It was on Henderson, who came over with very late help and did make some contact on Hansbrough's arms. Bad, bad decision by G.

Next.I wasn't specifically talking about that play. Regardless, I recorded the game and at 6:45 a foul was called on Hendo, but you could really see if he made contact or not.

houstondukie
03-08-2009, 06:16 PM
Just didn't get the breaks we needed today. A bunch of open shots that didn't fall for us, the loose-balls, the rebounds, the couple of those "and-ones" that we didn't convert...and of course the ridiculous shots that UNC hit (Beeker's 3s, pretty much anything Ellington shot and Deon "I only suit up for Duke games" Thomson). Frustrating game...we could have won this game.

And this is w/o even mentioning the refs. Wow...home-cooking was definitely the case today. Must be nice to be a Tarheel when you get games officiated like this.

Also, I listened to the entire game...and I am not sure I heard Clark Kellogg say ONE positive thing about Duke. Can we just get one announcer who is not pre-disposed to not liking us? The likes of Elmore, Dykes, et al is bordering on ridiculous (the G Man is the only professional announcer around).

Huh? Elmore had a lot of good things to say about us.

BlueintheFace
03-08-2009, 06:17 PM
And I'm confused why we ran zone vs. a team like BC compared to UNC.

Lawson won both games for them. I'm not saying we should play it the entire game, but throwing it out there on some series here and there I don't think is a terrible idea.

It would throw off their offense. The double ball screens at the top of the key would be much less effective and it would slow down if not eliminate the ability to penetrate.

Obviously it opens up the 3 ball much more for UNC, but they still have to hit the shots.

I agree somewhat. I would like to see the zone for a few possessions per game just to throw them off, but not for rebounding purposes.

dukeman28428
03-08-2009, 06:18 PM
There is nothing that I dislike more than the heels and Tyler (walks every time) but I am proud of our team today. With some improved shooting and more rebounds, we could have won this game today. Ty Lawson made the difference with his speed but I like this Duke team a lot. Coach came up with a good plan and we can hold our head high and go on the ACC and NCAA. We are much better than we were a few weeks ago. :)

calltheobvious
03-08-2009, 06:22 PM
I wasn't specifically talking about that play. Regardless, I recorded the game and at 6:45 a foul was called on Hendo, but you could really see if he made contact or not.

Then which play(s) were you talking about?

As for the play at 6:45, if you look at the trajectory of TH's arms, it is clear that he did take illegal contact on the arm(s) from Henderson. Further, the calling official was right there with an unobstructed look. Solid call.

captmojo
03-08-2009, 06:25 PM
Then which play(s) were you talking about?

As for the play at 6:45, if you look at the trajectory of TH's arms, it is clear that he did take illegal contact on the arm(s) from Henderson. Further, the calling official was right there with an unobstructed look. Solid call.

Agreed. G's arms came down. He should have held up.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-08-2009, 06:27 PM
As I watched the game, it seemed like Carolina converted one tough shot after another. Ellington made two or three absolute circus shots at the rim; he hit a couple of threes with hands right in his eyes; Hansbrough hits two threes in the first half..

Exactly my point with UNC. It's fool's gold, and they are winning ugly. Very ugly.
Bad, tough shots that happen to go in...this time.

What is TH doing playing the high post, dribble driving and shooting three's in the first place?
I really have no problem with him shooting threes, I don't think it's luck that he made the wide open ones, he has a nice shot off the catch, but why is he out there the whole first half? Deon has a very good low post game, and we saw a few times he showed it, but most of the time his and TH's first touch in the 1/2 court set was around the foul line...way too far out from the hoop. Why? When they did post up lower, nobody got them the ball and instead they took more bad outside shots.

If this team could ever play a "smart" game the entire 40 minutes, then we would have a NC team. I have yet to see it, and like the MD game, they are going to get too casual with a good team, or too confident that they can overcome their dumb mistakes and it will bite them.

roywhite
03-08-2009, 06:29 PM
As I see it, we played a very tough, competitive game against a #1 national seed, who was playing on their home court and shooting well.

There are just a few teams in the NCAA field (Pitt, UNC, UCon, and not many others) who would be favored to beat us, and none that we cannot possibly beat.

We haven't yet seen Nolan Smith and Elliot Williams both playing well. There's plenty of reason for optimism in the NCAA tournament.

OldSchool
03-08-2009, 06:30 PM
I agree that Elliot played very well on Lawson. However, we switch so much that just as important as Elliot playing well on Lawson is his ability to cover a bigger forward after the switch, given his height and hops.

I do like our chances now in the ACC tourney with the "five forwards" starting line-up. We will still need Nolan to be back and at least playing solid D and we will need Greg to contribute some 3-pt shooting to be successful.

It would be great if we could get victories over BC, Clemson and UNC to win the ACC tourney but that can't happen with the way the standings will finish. But we can avenge 2 out of 3.

If Clemson beats Wake, we face the Miami-NC State winner.

If Wake beats Clemson, we face the BC-Virginia winner.

buddy
03-08-2009, 06:31 PM
This was a gutsy performance by a wounded team on our opponents court on their Senior Day. Had this game been at Cameron, the energy of our crowd might just have been enough to carry us through. The team is playing so much better than before. After beating FSU, I viewed this game as playing with house money. We always want to win, and ALWAYS want to beat the 'holes, but despite the weak foul shooting, sometimes poor offensive decisions, and complete inability to rebound in the second half, this was a winnable game with two minutes to go. I know that "good teams know how to finish", but in all I am encouraged at this result. Next weekend will be a crapshoot, but I like this team going into the post-season.

Devilsfan
03-08-2009, 06:32 PM
We played good enough to win tonight. The difference was we don't have a true ACC starting back to the basket/rebounding big man. Our four other guys are trying to compensate for this and doing pretty well. If we had one good big, our guys currently playing that position would give us a great bench. We got outrebounded by a ton tonight and it was still a two point game with just minutes to go. The two tall guys coming in next year are very good but neither is a back to the basket player so I been told by people that should known. Maybe there's some transfer out there and boy would we be really good next year.

bleedingblue
03-08-2009, 06:33 PM
With the new lineup now clicking, Nolan should feel less pressure coming off the bench and give us a nice scoring punch we are lacking from the bench.Lets get healthy this week and get on a March run of years past. Go Devils

JDev
03-08-2009, 06:35 PM
WMaybe there's some transfer out there and boy would we be really good next year.

If Duke excepted a transfer, he would not be eligible until the year after next. With the commitments and the still-sought recruits, I think a transfer is highly unlikely.

Bay Area Duke Fan
03-08-2009, 06:41 PM
This is not a good % shooting Duke team.

Henderson is gonna have to play better in big games for this team to go far in the tournaments.

devildownunder
03-08-2009, 06:42 PM
well, I got to see most of the second half, at least. I didn't see all of the issues with the officials that many others have. I didn't think we got jobbed. yes, th gets some calls. So do most big-name players, especially at home. That's the way it is.

This game felt similar to other recent games we've had at UNC, in that I felt like we played well but not well enough because the advantage towards the holes on the inside was such that we needed to put in a villanona '85-style performance in order to win. You end up feeling like you're hanging onto the game by your fingernails the whole time. It's not a a good feeling.

Still, scheyer and henderson kept us in it. We competed hard and well and who knows how it might've been different if kyle's foot hadn't been called out on that rebound near the end. That was just a huge play. Down 4, about to head upcourt with a chance to make it a 1-possession game. Then all of a sudden, you're down 7, just like that. Killer.

Devilsfan
03-08-2009, 06:44 PM
Hanswhatever fouled out on his own court on senior night. I wonder how many fouls it really took for the refs to call 5 on him?

OldSchool
03-08-2009, 06:48 PM
If Clemson beats Wake, we face the Miami-NC State winner.


Looking at Jumbo's post on another thread, in that case we should face the Maryland-NC State winner, not Miami-NC State.

MChambers
03-08-2009, 06:50 PM
A little quiet, so I guess I'll reply to myself. I'm enthused. Granted, I was enthused after the first game against Carolina, but this is different. For the first time in a while, I really see the way this team is constructed for long-term success.

Gerald, Kyle and Jon are all on form going into postseason play. Moving Jon to the point has made our offense so much more efficient. We hung tough with Lance and Jon playing on ankles that surely more painful than Lawson's injured toe. We hung tough without Nolan Smith. We hung tough when Singler got in foul trouble. We hung tough through some brutal calls (Singler's "charge" against Frasor on the break, Singler's "fourth foul" when Hansbrough flopped). We hung tough even though we couldn't play Paulus in the second half because there was just no one for him to guard, shortening our rotation. We hung tough even when it seemed like every mistake we made got magnified -- misses turning into long rebounds turning into easy baskets and quick 4-or 5-point swings. We hung tough because we have a good team.

I'm looking forward to everyone returning healthy, and it's clear what Nolan can bring to this team when he gets back. Getting 20-some minutes off the bench from him will be huge. We can increase our ball pressure. Hopefully, that will keep our D from giving up such a high shooting percentage. We'll get decent contributions from Zoubek and McClure. Paulus probably will be relegated to spot duty, but maybe he can hit a big shot or two. And we have a terrific starting lineup.

This is a really good team. It can keep getting better. Let's hope the next four days are filled with plenty of rest, improvement and game-planning and that we see a strong performance in Atlanta.

Yes, if we can get Nolan back and have him play at a high level, Duke will be really tough.

The 3rd and 4th foul calls on Singler weren't good. Funny how folks say Duke flops, but Frasor and Hansbrough never get upright before they go flying backwards.

I'm wondering about Paulus. I was surprised he didn't come in during the last five minutes, just for his shooting.

dukestheheat
03-08-2009, 06:51 PM
Scheyer just played an amazing game today and really, he's been playing very well since the move to PG. He just does NOT turn that ball over! I am very pleased with his performance overall. He has turned into one of our most valuable players.

This game could have gone either way. I am not so disappointed that we lost it because if you toss out a couple plays/possessions in that second half, that would have been a one possession game going down the stretch!

Contrast today's performance with the game earlier this year at Cameron, and you can see Duke has improved a lot! We have much to be thankful for with this team, and our best days are ahead. I think we may go deep in this tournament, and I bet you $50 the coach in the Duke locker room is preparing these guys for a Final Four run.

Let's go DUKE!

dukestheheat

zingit
03-08-2009, 06:54 PM
As I watched the game, it seemed like Carolina converted one tough shot after another. Ellington made two or three absolute circus shots at the rim; he hit a couple of threes with hands right in his eyes; Hansbrough hits two threes in the first half; it's Duke, so a 3-ball decides to fall for Frasor.

Yes, Ellington struggled from the line, but Carolina still benefitted from a substantial amount of luck offensively.


Yeah, but we hit a few tough shots too, and Carolina also missed some open shots. This does not comfort me. :(

Neals384
03-08-2009, 06:56 PM
Everybody knows I don't think the officials in the ACC are very good and should all be replaced. But, while there were some poor calls both ways, I don't think they were the difference in the game.

I just don't see the calls that favor TH as much as you guys seem to.
That TH "flop" was a good defensive play, just like that nice acting job by GH when TH got the third foul.
The call on Deon when he got tied up with Thomas late looked like Thomas hooked him down to me...but whatever, none of these calls were game changing calls.

Umm. Kyle is called for a charge, his 4th foul. The correct call was a block, which would have been a 4th foul for TH. Maybe Duke loses anyway, but I call that a game-changing call.

MChambers
03-08-2009, 06:56 PM
It was kind of like watching us play very well against an NBA team. I have a feeling this UNC squad will be one of those you look back on in 5 years and say "Wow, can you believe the NBA talent they had on that roster??" Almost too much talent for one cohesive team.

It's funny, but I feel exactly the opposite. I don't see any of the UNC players as being very good in the NBA. Hansbrough can't play down low in the NBA, on either end of the floor, Lawson is one more small point guard, and Ellington, well, at least his carrying the ball will be less noticeable in the NBA. Maybe Davis will be a good NBA player, but I see most of the UNC guys as riding the pine, if they are lucky.

MChambers
03-08-2009, 07:00 PM
I stand with you here. I heard the same compliments.

I still don't think Kellogg is very good, but I don't think he was biased in any way.

devildownunder
03-08-2009, 07:03 PM
It's funny, but I feel exactly the opposite. I don't see any of the UNC players as being very good in the NBA. Hansbrough can't play down low in the NBA, on either end of the floor, Lawson is one more small point guard, and Ellington, well, at least his carrying the ball will be less noticeable in the NBA. Maybe Davis will be a good NBA player, but I see most of the UNC guys as riding the pine, if they are lucky.


Agreed, I think the hype about how loaded this UNC team is supposed to be says a lot more about the overall talent level in college basketball right now than it does about the tarheels. A handful of guys on that team have a chance to hold a roster spot in the nba for several years. No shame in that but that are not close to the talent overload we keep hearing they are.

Jumbo
03-08-2009, 07:08 PM
This is not a good % shooting Duke team.

Henderson is gonna have to play better in big games for this team to go far in the tournaments.

Yeah, he was terrible in that win against Wake. Awful against FSU. Horrible against Maryland. Are you kidding? The guy is averaging 19.8 ppg in ACC games. He's been fantastic in almost all our "big games."

Wheat/"/"/"
03-08-2009, 07:12 PM
Umm. Kyle is called for a charge, his 4th foul. The correct call was a block, which would have been a 4th foul for TH. Maybe Duke loses anyway, but I call that a game-changing call.

I thought Singler was a little out of control and at best it could have gone either way, but bottom line, he should never have tried to drive there...

Duvall
03-08-2009, 07:13 PM
Yeah, he was terrible in that win against Wake. Awful against FSU. Horrible against Maryland. Are you kidding? The guy is averaging 19.8 ppg in ACC games. He's been fantastic in almost all our "big games."

Whatever, man. The guy hasn't stepped up in a big game since Tuesday. What has he done lately?

feldspar
03-08-2009, 07:14 PM
UNC executed their game plan virtually perfectly.

Tip of the hat goes to this Duke team for staying in this game for the most part despite that and some imperfect shooting.

I'm disappointed, just because we looked relatively in control for a good portion of the first half. That disappointment is tempered by the fact that UNC is very, very good and the knowledge that this team is going to get better in the next 4 days with Nolan hopefully getting back into the lineup.

I really wanted this one, but we're okay.

On to the ACCT.

devildownunder
03-08-2009, 07:17 PM
I thought Singler was a little out of control and at best it could have gone either way, but bottom line, he should never have tried to drive there...

And on his 3rd foul, which he received in that 4-on-2 break, he should not have got the ball in that position. I'd want to see it again to be sure but I believe the correct play in that 4-on-2 break would have been a lob to G.

Scheyer was great, though. Nobody's perfect.

Deb4Duke4Ever
03-08-2009, 07:19 PM
I agree somewhat. I would like to see the zone for a few possessions per game just to throw them off, but not for rebounding purposes.


Um...IIRC, we did use a 2-3 zone on at least one possession (which worked out for us BTW). I would have to look back at the tape but it occurred when we were playing D on the UNC side of the court.

calltheobvious
03-08-2009, 07:32 PM
Umm. Kyle is called for a charge, his 4th foul. The correct call was a block, which would have been a 4th foul for TH. Maybe Duke loses anyway, but I call that a game-changing call.

Yeah, um, no way in the known universe is that a block on Hansbrough. TH had slid his feet well and was certainly there. Bottom line on that play was nailed by Special K: when the defender gets there in time and the offensive player extends the off-arm that much, it's usually going to be a PC foul.

Lobby for a no-call if you want, but please-oh-please don't terp for a block there.

jipops
03-08-2009, 07:33 PM
I thought Singler was a little out of control and at best it could have gone either way, but bottom line, he should never have tried to drive there...

I agree with you on this one (yech, now I have to take a shower :)). It was my feeling that Kyle's third foul was rather lame. Kyle was actually a bit in front of Hansbrough going for the board, there was no contact with the arm (though Kellogg mysteriously said they were ???tangled???) and very minimal contact with the body. Should have been a no-call. This was the only call of the entire game I was remotely upset with, though I'm sure there were many others missed on both sides which is normal for any college game ref'd by human beings.

Oh yeah, the foul on Lance in the 1st where he cleanly blocked the ball out of Tyler's hands. Little bologna on that one too. But ofcourse I'm only going to notice the bad calls going in UNC's favor.

Devil in the Blue Dress
03-08-2009, 07:36 PM
As I see it, we played a very tough, competitive game against a #1 national seed, who was playing on their home court and shooting well.

There are just a few teams in the NCAA field (Pitt, UNC, UCon, and not many others) who would be favored to beat us, and none that we cannot possibly beat.

We haven't yet seen Nolan Smith and Elliot Williams both playing well. There's plenty of reason for optimism in the NCAA tournament.

Well put. Despite not winning this game, I see this team continuing to develop and improve.

It was a pleasant development that Lance was able to play. He's now got a week to continue with rehab before the ACC tournament.

If Elliott can become more consistent in his foul shooting, it would certainly add to his effectiveness on the court.

While some seem very concerned about Gerald's performance today, he contributed solidly despite not scoring as many points as some previous games. Seems to me there was a similar concern about Jon a few weeks ago.

Greg_Newton
03-08-2009, 07:44 PM
A handful of guys on that team have a chance to hold a roster spot in the nba for several years.

Well, only time will tell, but I would disagree with that. I do see Hansbrough only having a Mark Madsen-esque type of career (although with his level of effort and dedication, I don't see him dropping out of the league completely). I also think that Thompson is only a borderline prospect. However, I think that Green, Ellington and Lawson will all be solid NBA contributors, even if they're not All-Stars. They are all NBA caliber athletes, each with fairly strong skill sets. Lawson is very different than your typical 5-11 TJ Ford/Sean Singletary PG prospect in that he is built like a truck and seeks out contact when he finishes, Ellington is a great pure shooter with above average athleticism, and Green is probably the most underrated all-around prospect on the team (IMHO). Ed Davis also has the body, athleticism and moves to be at least starting big man in the League when he develops a bit more. And who knows about Zeller...

My point wasn't that they have future all-stars on their team, it was more pointing to the depth of high level talent they have. I would expect anywhere from 4-6 players on their roster to be getting good NBA minutes 5 years down the road, which would be pretty impressive even if they are not superstars. It's hard to stay competitive for 40 minutes against a team where almost every player is a next-level athlete, and we did a great job for 38 and a half, even shorthanded.

jipops
03-08-2009, 07:47 PM
Maybe a little bit too much discussion about officiating, myself included, and not enough about the positives coming out of this game for Duke. Hey, we lost to a far more talented and experienced team on their home floor but we were never out of it. Other than the outcome I'm extremely happy with what transpired. Like K said in the radio post-game, this was a game Carolina won, but we didn't lose. This team is in a far better position going into the tournaments than it has been in awhile, even before 2007.

I think one thing that's happened with this team that hasn't occurred in a few years is the level of confidence this team possesses. The past couple seasons Duke teams have gone in late in the year shouldering a lot of burden and overly pressing themselves. I was kind of expecting Duke to get run out of the gym today against a thoroughly over-powering opponent (knowing that Lawson's "injury" was a complete sham). But we stayed poised and hung tough the entire game. A few critical shots didn't drop, Kyle falling out of bounds eventually did us in but other than that we were right there.

On to the next phase, I think we're actually ready.

Constantstrain 81
03-08-2009, 07:50 PM
I see us positioned well for a run.

We don't really match up well against UNC, just as they won't match up well against Florida State, Wake Forest, and UConn. It is just about match-ups and advantages.

Our main players are going to play big minutes in the big games unless they are in foul trouble. They did so today.

We played a good game today. We controlled the tempo. In the end, we just missed some shots that could have gone down. We had more than share of rebounds that bounced just out of our hands. We got a few no-calls that could have helped and we had a few calls go against us that would have been nice no-calls. That's the way it goes. It really comes down to making shots -- and we were oh, so close.

UNC is not awesome - we really controlled them today. We got the shots we wanted. We just didn't really make them in the key stretch of the second half.

I like this team.

Kishiznit
03-08-2009, 07:51 PM
If inserting EWil was the move of the year for our squad, why not take it a step farther? Why not move Miles into the starting lineup, as well? At least give him some minutes. He is probably the most coordinated of our bigs on the offensive side of the ball and I don't see how we could lose much on the boards.

jipops
03-08-2009, 07:52 PM
Exactly my point with UNC. It's fool's gold, and they are winning ugly. Very ugly.
Bad, tough shots that happen to go in...this time.

What is TH doing playing the high post, dribble driving and shooting three's in the first place?
I really have no problem with him shooting threes, I don't think it's luck that he made the wide open ones, he has a nice shot off the catch, but why is he out there the whole first half? Deon has a very good low post game, and we saw a few times he showed it, but most of the time his and TH's first touch in the 1/2 court set was around the foul line...way too far out from the hoop. Why? When they did post up lower, nobody got them the ball and instead they took more bad outside shots.

If this team could ever play a "smart" game the entire 40 minutes, then we would have a NC team. I have yet to see it, and like the MD game, they are going to get too casual with a good team, or too confident that they can overcome their dumb mistakes and it will bite them.

But you gotta give some big props to Dancin' Danny for his defense on Henderson and the drives by Ellington were spectacular against a solid defender in Scheyer.

brsett
03-08-2009, 07:57 PM
I think UNC got the better of the refs tonight.

But to point out one call that went for Duke. Recall the foul call on Deon Thompson, where at best he and Lance got tangled, and most likely Lance fell on him. Frasor got the rebound hurdling over those two, but the foul was called and Duke got the ball. That was big too, as I believe UNC had a 7 point lead there, and UNC is good at scoring during those kind of chaotic sequences.

Ty Zeller took a shot to the nose on that play as well apparently, but I didn't see that part of the play, so no idea what the cause of that was.

bleedingblue
03-08-2009, 08:01 PM
Miles DNP, Marty DNP, Greg 6 min, Nolan hurt DNP, we need to get these guy's a couple minutes with the 2nd season now lets not wear down,bench production today 0 points!!!

InSpades
03-08-2009, 08:07 PM
I think UNC got the better of the refs tonight.

But to point out one call that went for Duke. Recall the foul call on Deon Thompson, where at best he and Lance got tangled, and most likely Lance fell on him. Frasor got the rebound hurdling over those two, but the foul was called and Duke got the ball. That was big too, as I believe UNC had a 7 point lead there, and UNC is good at scoring during those kind of chaotic sequences.


From what I saw of that play... Thomas and Thompson got their arms tangled and then Thompson fell down. Nothing in there is worth of a foul, however when Thompson fell down he was still tangled with Thomas so he dragged him down as well. This is a foul. I'm not sure how you can see this play any other way. Thomas definitely would have gotten the rebound if not for Thompson basically dragging him to the ground with him.

devildownunder
03-08-2009, 08:07 PM
Well, only time will tell, but I would disagree with that. I do see Hansbrough only having a Mark Madsen-esque type of career (although with his level of effort and dedication, I don't see him dropping out of the league completely). I also think that Thompson is only a borderline prospect. However, I think that Green, Ellington and Lawson will all be solid NBA contributors, even if they're not All-Stars. They are all NBA caliber athletes, each with fairly strong skill sets. Lawson is very different than your typical 5-11 TJ Ford/Sean Singletary PG prospect in that he is built like a truck and seeks out contact when he finishes, Ellington is a great pure shooter with above average athleticism, and Green is probably the most underrated all-around prospect on the team (IMHO). Ed Davis also has the body, athleticism and moves to be at least starting big man in the League when he develops a bit more. And who knows about Zeller...

My point wasn't that they have future all-stars on their team, it was more pointing to the depth of high level talent they have. I would expect anywhere from 4-6 players on their roster to be getting good NBA minutes 5 years down the road, which would be pretty impressive even if they are not superstars. It's hard to stay competitive for 40 minutes against a team where almost every player is a next-level athlete, and we did a great job for 38 and a half, even shorthanded.

1. Wayne Ellington is shooting 38% from 3pt range (according to espn). That's pretty good but hardly what I would call "pure shooter" numbers. His ball-handling and athleticism are average to below average for an nba 2-guard, IMO, as is his size, at 6'4" 200 (again, from espn). He also has not demonstrated great defensive ability, although perhaps when earning a paycheck depends on it, that will change. I see him as an end-of-the-rotation guy in the nba.

2. Hans will do better than madsen, I think because he's fairly strong and has pretty good hands. Plus, he will be drafted pretty high because of the hype surrounding him, so he'll end up on a bad team, where he can start, or at least play a lot, and put up some stats. That should get him another contract in 3 years. He almost certainly won't be an impact player. At his size, a player needs Elton Brand-type skills to be a force. TH does not come close.

3. We agree pretty much on Green. He is a real prospect. The development in his shot surprises me. He is not hitting at 44.5% (espn again) and can hit that shot as a pull-up J, not just as a set shot. He also has shown some ability to defend on the perimeter when he wants to and can be a decent bench performer for that reason, IMO. At 6'6", he also has pretty good height to play on the wing in the NBA, although he would want to get stronger, because he is going to have to prove himself as a defender if he wants serious minutes. It's hard to envision him approaching his current 14ppg scoring avg. in the nba any time soon.

4. Lawson is a backup point guard who won't get a ton of PT for a while, IMO. He has decent speed/quickness/ballhandling and below-avg. shooting for an nba point/lead guard. He is strong but not frightfully so, and other guards his size haven't had much problem scoring on him. To make himself an effective NBA player, he will have to greatly improve his shooting and he's going to have to get better with the dribble as well. Improving on defense never hurts but I don't think there is a whole lot he can do to greatly improve himself there, as he doesn't seem to have the kind of lightning-quick hands you would need to be a force on D at his size in the NBA.

5. Davis and Zeller: It's a bit early to comment on their chances. Both are freshmen and Zeller has hardly played. Big men always need so much more development it seems. at 7 feet, i like zeller's size better but, really, it's too early to tell.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-08-2009, 08:08 PM
It's hard to stay competitive for 40 minutes against a team where almost every player is a next-level athlete, and we did a great job for 38 and a half, even shorthanded.

Duke is getting the most you can really expect from this team. No need to really be down. They are playing really smart, for the most part. I think the mistakes they made tonight were late in the game, and probably had to do with fatigue. It certainly was not effort. Of course with a few breaks and a sick shooting night they can win against anybody, but they are really undermatched with UNC and the other, say top 5 teams.

I can't see this team getting past the sweet 16, but you never know...one game at a time in the tourney.

Reading post game around the web, I see people talking about how well UNC played. They played like crap in my mind. That's not to take anything away from Duke, but there is just no leader on the floor for UNC that mentally takes control of the game. Geez, there were some forced shots and stupid passes, late in a title game when the outcome was far from decided. They are winning in spite of themselves.

Just consider if the players on UNC, with all their talent, played with the mental toughness that Duke has displayed late this season?

Way too much one on one stuff for my taste with this UNC team, thay could be so much better which is what's so scary...

brsett
03-08-2009, 08:21 PM
From what I saw of that play... Thomas and Thompson got their arms tangled and then Thompson fell down. Nothing in there is worth of a foul, however when Thompson fell down he was still tangled with Thomas so he dragged him down as well. This is a foul. I'm not sure how you can see this play any other way. Thomas definitely would have gotten the rebound if not for Thompson basically dragging him to the ground with him.

No, I didn't see it that way. What I honestly saw was Lance entangle Deon, and then attempt to run through him toward the ball, causing Deon to fall. Deon had inside position on the ball (because he was between Lance and the ball). It was a clear over the back/pushing violation, and had the goal been in front of Deon, rather than behind him, he would have gotten the call. Since it felt like a loose ball situation rather than a rebound (though it was just a rebound), I would have favored a no-call personally.

But that was how *I* saw it another way. Perhaps I am blind/stupid/whatever.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-08-2009, 08:21 PM
From what I saw of that play... Thomas and Thompson got their arms tangled and then Thompson fell down. Nothing in there is worth of a foul, however when Thompson fell down he was still tangled with Thomas so he dragged him down as well. This is a foul. I'm not sure how you can see this play any other way. Thomas definitely would have gotten the rebound if not for Thompson basically dragging him to the ground with him.

Funny how we can see it so differently.... can somebody Youtube it and lets really look at it...?

I'd like to see it again, but my impression on the replay was that they were tangled up, and Thomas pulled Deon down...

It didn't seem to be an unreasonable call either way.

Faison1
03-08-2009, 08:21 PM
I don't see a lot of people blaming the loss on the refs. Everyone seems to feel that a few close calls went Carolina's way and that is probably true. It was frustrating, yes, but most people here are not blaming the loss on the refs at all.

Settle Down. (insert optional line of exclamation points here ;))

After I've had a few hours to "settle down", I can see that you are right about one point. I shouldn't have used so many exclamation points in my post. I was hot 10 minutes after game time, and a little annoyed in general. So, please forgive me. (Not sarcastic)

But after reading the latest posts, I see that half of them are in regards to the refs or bad calls. Pretty funny if you ask me....

Indoor66
03-08-2009, 08:22 PM
Duke is getting the most you can really expect from this team. No need to really be down. They are playing really smart, for the most part. I think the mistakes they made tonight were late in the game, and probably had to do with fatigue. It certainly was not effort. Of course with a few breaks and a sick shooting night they can win against anybody, but they are really undermatched with UNC and the other, say top 5 teams.

I can't see this team getting past the sweet 16, but you never know...one game at a time in the tourney.

Reading post game around the web, I see people talking about how well UNC played. They played like crap in my mind. That's not to take anything away from Duke, but there is just no leader on the floor for UNC that mentally takes control of the game. Geez, there were some forced shots and stupid passes, late in a title game when the outcome was far from decided. They are winning in spite of themselves.

Just consider if the players on UNC, with all their talent, played with the mental toughness that Duke has displayed late this season?

Way too much one on one stuff for my taste with this UNC team, thay could be so much better which is what's so scary...

Wheat, you are showing your Deano pedigree. :)

JimBD
03-08-2009, 08:35 PM
I thought Kyle got mugged on one play when he took it to the basket against Hansbrough, and it would have been his fourth foul with a lot of time to play, but unfortunately the refs didn't see it that way. The bottom line is UNC made more big plays in crunch time than Duke and deserved to win. UNC seems to have a better overall team than Duke, but I still believe that Duke has the talent to beat them one game if they meet again.

marinbobbyduhon
03-08-2009, 08:41 PM
While some seem very concerned about Gerald's performance today, he contributed solidly despite not scoring as many points as some previous games. Seems to me there was a similar concern about Jon a few weeks ago.

I agree with this. The sad thing is that if I am one of the people voting for the ACC POY and I had a virtual tie between Lawson and G going into this game, and I had no vested interest in the outcome, I would probably vote for Lawson off of this one game. It pains me to say so, but I think this might happen with some of the undecided voters (if there are any).

Fortunately, I am a homer and would still vote for G! :D

Come to think about it, I would also put Kyle and Jon on the 1st team, even if that's not reasonable. But then again, I don't have a vote.

longtimefan
03-08-2009, 08:47 PM
While im disappointed with the loss .a few more baskets made and a few breaks we could have won.overall i think we played well.the thing that irked me the most was hearing about lawsons injured toe.i believe if any of the heels had a irregular bowel movement we would hear how they were playing with a strained glutious maximous.

brsett
03-08-2009, 08:48 PM
I thought Kyle got mugged on one play when he took it to the basket against Hansbrough, and it would have been his fourth foul with a lot of time to play, but unfortunately the refs didn't see it that way. The bottom line is UNC made more big plays in crunch time than Duke and deserved to win. UNC seems to have a better overall team than Duke, but I still believe that Duke has the talent to beat them one game if they meet again.

I think Duke has the talent to beat anyone actually. If the big three get hot at the same time, they're pretty tough to contend with.

OTOH, I think Duke is pretty well rated where they are. They remind me of the Ray, Foye, Fraser-Villanova teams. Great at the top, but a significant falloff in ability after the top 3 scorers. As I recall, UNC needed a miracle to beat that team in 2005, so a final 4 definitely seems possible to me, though it is probably unlikely. I don't think another first weekend disappointment is in the works for this year at least.

ncexnyc
03-08-2009, 08:51 PM
Yeah, um, no way in the known universe is that a block on Hansbrough. TH had slid his feet well and was certainly there. Bottom line on that play was nailed by Special K: when the defender gets there in time and the offensive player extends the off-arm that much, it's usually going to be a PC foul.

Lobby for a no-call if you want, but please-oh-please don't terp for a block there.

Well at least Coach Cut has found himself a new blocking back in Kyle for his offense. Hasbro looked like he was shot out of a cannon on that play.

A tough loss with some interesting calls, but then you do expect to get those at home.

Bottom line UNC is just a deeper and better team. I wouldn't be surprised to see the bench production being the difference in the score.

BahamaDukie
03-08-2009, 08:55 PM
Until we get some kind of real inside presence, and can play the game more from inside the 3 point circle.....and make defensive adjustments when match-ups are not in our favor, we will struggle against upper tier teams.

Duke is a good team, but with issues, primarily in the POST ( not knocking Zoubek ), and with overall team quickness.

Developed Depth come March has been an issue for some time, and if this sounds Negative, I apologize, but I watch and have for years, and until we get some bigs,etc. we will struggle when we hope to conquer.

Gerald, if you are leaving us, best of luck in the NBA. You are a athlete among athletes.
Greg, what a tough kid you have been, and best of luck in life...coaching I would bet. Your heart was huge.
Marty, wish things had worked out better for you here....good luck in Europe

dukelifer
03-08-2009, 08:59 PM
Duke is getting the most you can really expect from this team. No need to really be down. They are playing really smart, for the most part. I think the mistakes they made tonight were late in the game, and probably had to do with fatigue. It certainly was not effort. Of course with a few breaks and a sick shooting night they can win against anybody, but they are really undermatched with UNC and the other, say top 5 teams.

I can't see this team getting past the sweet 16, but you never know...one game at a time in the tourney.

Reading post game around the web, I see people talking about how well UNC played. They played like crap in my mind. That's not to take anything away from Duke, but there is just no leader on the floor for UNC that mentally takes control of the game. Geez, there were some forced shots and stupid passes, late in a title game when the outcome was far from decided. They are winning in spite of themselves.

Just consider if the players on UNC, with all their talent, played with the mental toughness that Duke has displayed late this season?

Way too much one on one stuff for my taste with this UNC team, thay could be so much better which is what's so scary...

Duke is a good team and this starting lineup with Scheyer running the show is making fewer mistakes and putting Duke in a position to win. But without some inside muscle and more inside scoring- Duke will have its challenges in the big dance. Still this team has gotten better. They really controlled tempo today and if a few open shots go down- today's game could have gone to the wire. UNC is a very good team- but their lack of D or focus will likely let them down at some point. Other than Davis- their bench is not really giving them much either this year- which is unusual for a UNC team.

The ACC tourney will be very competitive this year- particularly in the Thursday/Friday games. A few teams need to make a statement to have a chance to get a bid or get a higher seed. Duke will likely play Boston College. And if they win - then Wake. That is a tough road just to get to the finals. This tourney could wear out a few teams- even UNC who is really relying on 6 players. It will be interesting to watch. Duke is banged up right now and I am not quite sure what to expect from here on out. I like the way Duke has been playing and today showed they are moving the right direction- but they have not created an inside force. But this is one year where getting to the ACC final could be a bad thing- except for how it affects seeding. If anything Duke needs to use the ACC tourney just to get better and ready for the bigger tourney. I would be shocked if they won it- but you never know how other teams will approach it.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-08-2009, 09:00 PM
Wheat, you are showing your Deano pedigree. :)

You're right...
Dean would never put up with the mental mistakes Roy does...and would have executed a post game with the big man advantage.
I guess I should shut up and be happy with an ACC title, but it drives me nuts to see them play so dumb with that much talent.

feldspar
03-08-2009, 09:01 PM
Until we get some kind of real inside presence, and can play the game more from inside the 3 point circle.....and make defensive adjustments when match-ups are not in our favor, we will struggle against upper tier teams.

Duke is a good team, but with issues, primarily in the POST ( not knocking Zoubek ), and with overall team quickness.

Developed Depth come March has been an issue for some time, and if this sounds Negative, I apologize, but I watch and have for years, and until we get some bigs,etc. we will struggle when we hope to conquer.

Gerald, if you are leaving us, best of luck in the NBA. You are a athlete among athletes.
Greg, what a tough kid you have been, and best of luck in life...coaching I would bet. Your heart was huge.
Marty, wish things had worked out better for you here....good luck in Europe

Season's over already?

The overall tenor of your post suggests we have no shot of going far in either the ACC or NCAA tournament. I vehemently disagree.

Unlike the last two years, I think we are progressing going into the post-season rather than the opposite. As another poster said in another thread, when Jon, Kyle and Gerald are all clicking at the same time, this is an incredibly dangerous team.

Here's the thing. Yes, we lack some size and depth down low. But we create very, very difficult matchups with a lot of teams, and we can exploit those matchups in the tournament more than at any time with the short turnaround times.

This team has the potential to do great things this year. I hope you'll stick around to hopefully see them accomplish them instead of throwing in the towel on them.

sagegrouse
03-08-2009, 09:02 PM
This is not a good % shooting Duke team.

Henderson is gonna have to play better in big games for this team to go far in the tournaments.

One kudo I will give to Carolina is the defensive scheme against Gerald. He was invited to drive and then double or triple-teamed. This forced some fairly awkward passes that did not result in points. We have to counter this scheme and react better to the defense (open player at the FT line?).

I have no problems with Gerald. He is an ACC POY candidate.

sagegrouse

Jumbo
03-08-2009, 09:15 PM
If inserting EWil was the move of the year for our squad, why not take it a step farther? Why not move Miles into the starting lineup, as well? At least give him some minutes. He is probably the most coordinated of our bigs on the offensive side of the ball and I don't see how we could lose much on the boards.

Because Miles has been given opportunities to produce and hasn't responded. He fouls at an incredibly high rate, so it would be virtually impossible to keep him on the court for a long time anyway. And I would say his offensive coordination is the weakest part of his game right now. In fact, I think Zoubek is a far superior offensive player.

feldspar
03-08-2009, 09:19 PM
Because Miles has been given opportunities to produce and hasn't responded. He fouls at an incredibly high rate, so it would be virtually impossible to keep him on the court for a long time anyway.

So does Zoubek, but he's gotten at least a crack at the starting lineup a couple times this season.

I agree with your overall argument but this reason doesn't pass the smell test.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-08-2009, 09:22 PM
One kudo I will give to Carolina is the defensive scheme against Gerald. He was invited to drive and then double or triple-teamed. This forced some fairly awkward passes that did not result in points. We have to counter this scheme and react better to the defense (open player at the FT line?).

I have no problems with Gerald. He is an ACC POY candidate.

sagegrouse

While not the toughest in the land, UNC's defense is better than people want to admit. I saw somewhere that Duke shot 11-32 for 34% over the last 26 minutes...

Jumbo
03-08-2009, 09:30 PM
Season's over already?

The overall tenor of your post suggests we have no shot of going far in either the ACC or NCAA tournament. I vehemently disagree.

Unlike the last two years, I think we are progressing going into the post-season rather than the opposite. As another poster said in another thread, when Jon, Kyle and Gerald are all clicking at the same time, this is an incredibly dangerous team.

Here's the thing. Yes, we lack some size and depth down low. But we create very, very difficult matchups with a lot of teams, and we can exploit those matchups in the tournament more than at any time with the short turnaround times.

This team has the potential to do great things this year. I hope you'll stick around to hopefully see them accomplish them instead of throwing in the towel on them.

Bingo.

I'm shocked by how limited many Duke fans are in their hopes for this team. It's like there is this fixed image of what a "Sweet 16" or "Elite 8" or "Final Four" team is supposed to be in their minds, and because this team might not fit that image, it doesn't have a chance of advancing deep in the Tourney.

Folks, this team can beat UNC. Did it beat UNC? No. But the talk about needing a perfect game? Duke led at the half today and was in it down to the very end. Duke did that despite shooting 32% in the second half and allowing UNC to shoot 52.8% for the game. That's far from a perfect game. Duke simply needed a very good game to win, or UNC to miss a couple more open shots, which tends to happen in basketball. And this was without Nolan Smith.

Yes, Duke is weaker than some teams in the middle. But look around the country -- virtually every team has a hole in its lineup somewhere and significant weaknesses that can be exploited on the right night. It's all about matchups, effort, execution and a whole lot of luck (it's amazing how many games are decided by a couple of shots that go halfway down and pop back out for one team and a couple of others that stay down for the other).

There are very, very few teams that are clearly better than Duke this year. And Duke can beat any of the teams that anyone would rank ahead of them. Does that mean Duke will win such a game? Of course not. And sure, this team could get picked off by a lesser team on the wrong night, too. But Duke has a shot against anyone. For sure.

jipops
03-08-2009, 09:31 PM
So does Zoubek, but he's gotten at least a crack at the starting lineup a couple times this season.

I agree with your overall argument but this reason doesn't pass the smell test.

So keep the junior on the bench in favor of the freshman who at this point hasn't delivered anything more than the one with experience? That certainly would smell different.

Heeler4life
03-08-2009, 09:33 PM
Great effort by a gutsy Duke team. I would also like to thank all of you who have admitted here that we are the superior team. Also feel bad for your unfortunate draw vs BC. Although I do not see another 14 point blowout by BC they will dominate the boards and win by 3-5 Pts. Would be great to see you guys again in the big dance though...ya never know.

FerryFor50
03-08-2009, 09:35 PM
Bingo.

I'm shocked by how limited many Duke fans are in their hopes for this team. It's like there is this fixed image of what a "Sweet 16" or "Elite 8" or "Final Four" team is supposed to be in their minds, and because this team might not fit that image, it doesn't have a chance of advancing deep in the Tourney.

Folks, this team can beat UNC. Did it beat UNC? No. But the talk about needing a perfect game? Duke led at the half today and was in it down to the very end. Duke did that despite shooting 32% in the second half and allowing UNC to shoot 52.8% for the game. That's far from a perfect game. Duke simply needed a very good game to win, or UNC to miss a couple more open shots, which tends to happen in basketball. And this was without Nolan Smith.

Yes, Duke is weaker than some teams in the middle. But look around the country -- virtually every team has a hole in its lineup somewhere and significant weaknesses that can be exploited on the right night. It's all about matchups, effort, execution and a whole lot of luck (it's amazing how many games are decided by a couple of shots that go halfway down and pop back out for one team and a couple of others that stay down for the other).

There are very, very few teams that are clearly better than Duke this year. And Duke can beat any of the teams that anyone would rank ahead of them. Does that mean Duke will win such a game? Of course not. And sure, this team could get picked off by a lesser team on the wrong night, too. But Duke has a shot against anyone. For sure.

Totally agree.

Depending on the matchups, Duke has a chance to make it to the Final Four. I truly believe this.

I only see a few teams that Duke would have a very tough time beating:

UConn
Pitt
Oklahoma
UNC

4 teams out of 64. They can't possibly run into all four teams in the tourny, especially not until the sweet 16. And with all the upsets that inevitably occur, it's not far-fetched to see Duke go deep into the tourny if they get hot.

Sure, I'd LOVE to see better post play, but it's not happening. K has adjusted and made this team one no one wants to play in the NCAAs.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-08-2009, 09:37 PM
Duke is a good team and this starting lineup with Scheyer running the show is making fewer mistakes and putting Duke in a position to win.

I've got to take a minute to give Scheyer some respect. He played a great game tonight.

I said it earlier in the year and I'll say it again...if I could make a trade, I'd send Ellington to Duke and take Scheyer in a heartbeat. I like Ellington, so no disrespect there, but UNC would be so much better with Scheyer as a team.

sivartrenrag
03-08-2009, 09:37 PM
I actually think this team is fantastic. It's probably one of my favorite Duke teams in recent memory. I love the big 3, the emergence of EWill as a force, and the sheer grit and determination of players like McClure, Thomas, and Paulus is exciting to watch. Sure, we aren't as dominant as in the past, but it's always a fun ride.

I think we have the chance to go very deep in the tournament. We are incredibly dangerous. Jon, G, and Kyle are all all-American caliber players and if they get hot at the same time, we would be nearly unstoppable. Unfortunately for us it seems as though one of them has an off-night when the other two are clicking.

Anyway, I love this team and I can't wait to see how everything turns out.

FerryFor50
03-08-2009, 09:38 PM
Great effort by a gutsy Duke team. I would also like to thank all of you who have admitted here that we are the superior team. Also feel bad for your unfortunate draw vs BC. Although I do not see another 14 point blowout by BC they will dominate the boards and win by 3-5 Pts. Would be great to see you guys again in the big dance though...ya never know.

Thanks for the prediction, Nostradamus.

Not buying the "superior team" garbage either. Now go back to your board. :D

Jumbo
03-08-2009, 09:38 PM
So does Zoubek, but he's gotten at least a crack at the starting lineup a couple times this season.

I agree with your overall argument but this reason doesn't pass the smell test.

Miles started this year too. ;)

Miles moved ahead of Zoubek in the rotation in the same game as Williams. If you'll remember, he entered the St. John's game ahead of Zoubs. Miles played eight minutes (and had four fouls). In fact, had it not been for foul trouble with Plumlee, Singler and Thomas (early, I think), Zoubs probably wouldn't have played.

Against Wake Forest, Plumlee played. Zoubek didn't.

Then came the Maryland game. Recall that in the first matchup, Zoubek had one of his best games of the season. Zoubek moved back in front of Plumlee in the rotation, but Miles played.

Against VT, Zoubs got 5 minutes. Miles didn't play.

Against FSU, with Thomas hurt, Miles got a chance again. In two minutes, he committed two fouls and put up two awkward, uncomfortable jumpers.

In short, Plumlee has been given every chance in the world to contribute this year. It's not as if Thomas and Zoubek have been overwhelming in the post, making contributions from Plumlee unnecessary. But he's fouling once every 4.4 minutes, which is even worse than Zoubek, who has a really high foul rate of one every six minutes. I wish Miles were ready to handle a bigger load, but he just hasn't shown that he's capable at this point.

FerryFor50
03-08-2009, 09:39 PM
I've got to take a minute to give Scheyer some respect. He played a great game tonight.

I said it earlier in the year and I'll say it again...if I could make a trade, I'd send Ellington to Duke and take Scheyer in a heartbeat. I like Ellington, so no disrespect there, but UNC would be so much better with Scheyer as a team.

I personally wouldn't trade any Duke player, but I would love to see Davis in a Duke uni. He's going to be very, very good.

mgtr
03-08-2009, 09:40 PM
Hers's the bottom line - we have three horses to riide -- Singler, Henderson, Scheyer. UNC has more horses. They have recruited better than we have. If we play 10 games, they win 7, we win 3. However, in the NCAA tournament, which is all that counts, at worst we have to play them once. If our number comes up, we win, thats that. I expect that if we meet UNC in the elite eight or final four, they will be over confident, and we will clean their clock. I hope, I hope, I hope.

Jumbo
03-08-2009, 09:40 PM
While not the toughest in the land, UNC's defense is better than people want to admit. I saw somewhere that Duke shot 11-32 for 34% over the last 26 minutes...

To be fair, a good portion of those shots were not contested. Several players missed wide open jumpers or point-blank shots around the rim. UNC converted those types of plays, plus a number of contested shots. Kudos to them on offense.

FerryFor50
03-08-2009, 09:41 PM
Several players missed wide open jumpers or point-blank shots around the rim.

Ugh.

Too soon, man. Too soon. :p

Duvall
03-08-2009, 09:43 PM
Also feel bad for your unfortunate draw vs BC. Although I do not see another 14 point blowout by BC they will dominate the boards and win by 3-5 Pts.

BC doesn't outrebound anyone, and they've struggled in recent weeks. But thanks for your input.

FerryFor50
03-08-2009, 09:45 PM
BC doesn't outrebound anyone, and they've struggled in recent weeks. But thanks for your input.

Gotta love random predictions from people who don't know what they're talking about, eh?

1) It was a 6 point win by BC, not a 14 pt blowout.
2) Duke outrebounded BC by 2 in the loss.

Just another example of why I believe Wheat is the only knowledgeable Tarheel fan on the planet.

AtlDuke72
03-08-2009, 09:45 PM
So keep the junior on the bench in favor of the freshman who at this point hasn't delivered anything more than the one with experience? That certainly would smell different.

It is hard to win when the power forward/center playes 31 minutes and gets 2 rebounds and 2 points. Coach K obviously likes his defense, but playing Zoubek more seems like a better option to me as does seeing what Plumlee would do if given more extended minutes. It may not work but I don't see how we can beat the better teams playing 4 on 5.

FerryFor50
03-08-2009, 09:51 PM
It is hard to win when the power forward/center playes 31 minutes and gets 2 rebounds and 2 points. Coach K obviously likes his defense, but playing Zoubek more seems like a better option to me as does seeing what Plumlee would do if given more extended minutes. It may not work but I don't see how we can beat the better teams playing 4 on 5.

There is no right answer here.

No player has produced at the 5 because the offense is not designed to allow it. The 5 is predominantly setting screens or playing the high post at the top of the key in the motion offense. It's not predicated on getting the big guys offensive shots. Their points come off rebounds and putbacks. We do not expect them to score, but it's a bonus if they do.

As for rebounding, they've been solid for most of the year. Duke's been out-rebounding opponents for most of the year, this game notwithstanding.

Zoubek, Thomas and Plumlee are effective in prescribed situations. Z is great against small teams or slow, plodding big men. He also does decently against Hanstravel.

Thomas is energetic and spastic, and does well against athletic players.

Plumlee is great right now to have in case one of them gets hurt.

I don't get how people expect a large amount of offense out of them when they don't really get plays drawn up for them.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-08-2009, 09:51 PM
I would also like to thank all of you who have admitted here that we are the superior team.

Allow me....

Hey, Heeler4life,take that crap out of here, you make the rest of us UNC fans look bad.
If you have something constructive to add stick around, otherwise head back to IC.

Jumbo
03-08-2009, 09:52 PM
They have recruited better than we have.

Have they? Certainly not to the degree I think you're indicating. I recall an excellent post by Jim Sumner on this subject. But, essentially, the difference is the current senior class. Recall that Duke's class was generally regarded as the best in the country. We know what happened with McRoberts, Boateng and Boykin, and we've seen what has happened to Paulus and Pocius. Clearly, that class didn't pan out, while UNC's group of Hansbrough, Green and Frasor turned out to be terrific.

But can you really complain about our 2006 class? Henderson and Scheyer are stars. Thomas is a starter, who, granted, hasn't quite lived up to his billing. Zoubek was supposed to be a late-developing big man. For UNC, Lawson and Ellington are stars. But are they any better a duo than Henderson/Scheyer? Brandan Wright, who we wanted, left after a year. Deon Thompson has exceeded all expectations and is far and away the most underrated player on UNC's team. He's going to be a load if Roy allows him to become the first option in the post next season.

Any complaints about our 2007 class? Singler is a stud. Smith is darn good. King transfers. UNC? Will Graves.

And this year's freshmen? Well, Elliot Williams has emerged as a key cog. Ed Davis is really nice for UNC. Tyler Zeller seems to have some potential. Plumlee, Czyz and Drew haven't made much of an impact yet.

So, again, it really comes down to that 2005 class. Otherwise, the recruiting thing really gets overblown.

(BTW, my favorite current trend on the subject of recruiting is lamenting the fact that we didn't get Patrick Patterson, while forgetting that we actually were after a few bigs before him. You might recognize one of their names -- Blake Griffin.)

feldspar
03-08-2009, 09:52 PM
Miles started this year too. ;)

Well, twice to Zoub's 17. But I understand your point.

FerryFor50
03-08-2009, 09:53 PM
Allow me....

Hey, Heeler4life,take that crap out of here, you make the rest of us UNC fans look bad.
If you have something constructive to add stick around, otherwise head back to IC.

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/funny-pictures-excited-proposal-cat.jpg

Wheat/"/"/"
03-08-2009, 09:58 PM
I personally wouldn't trade any Duke player, but I would love to see Davis in a Duke uni. He's going to be very, very good.

You wouldn't trade Zoubek for TH? :)

Davis is going to be a real stud by his Jr. year.
On another note I was surprised that Roy gave TZ so many of Davis's minutes tonight, I think the extra effort is good for now, but come tourney time if TZ hasn't found his groove, I look for Davis to get that time back.

devildeac
03-08-2009, 09:58 PM
Gotta love random predictions from people who don't know what they're talking about, eh?

1) It was a 6 point win by BC, not a 14 pt blowout.
2) Duke outrebounded BC by 2 in the loss.

Just another example of why I believe Wheat is the only knowledgeable Tarheel fan on the planet.


Allow me....

Hey, Heeler4life,take that crap out of here, you make the rest of us UNC fans look bad.
If you have something constructive to add stick around, otherwise head back to IC.


Thank you. Quite impressive. Seriously.

Duvall
03-08-2009, 10:00 PM
Have they? Certainly not to the degree I think you're indicating. I recall an excellent post by Jim Sumner on this subject. But, essentially, the difference is the current senior class. Recall that Duke's class was generally regarded as the best in the country. We know what happened with McRoberts, Boateng and Boykin, and we've seen what has happened to Paulus and Pocius. Clearly, that class didn't pan out, while UNC's group of Hansbrough, Green and Frasor turned out to be terrific.

But can you really complain about our 2006 class? Henderson and Scheyer are stars. Thomas is a starter, who, granted, hasn't quite lived up to his billing. Zoubek was supposed to be a late-developing big man. For UNC, Lawson and Ellington are stars. But are they any better a duo than Henderson/Scheyer? Brandan Wright, who we wanted, left after a year. Deon Thompson has exceeded all expectations and is far and away the most underrated player on UNC's team. He's going to be a load if Roy allows him to become the first option in the post next season.

Any complaints about our 2007 class? Singler is a stud. Smith is darn good. King transfers. UNC? Will Graves.

And this year's freshmen? Well, Elliot Williams has emerged as a key cog. Ed Davis is really nice for UNC. Tyler Zeller seems to have some potential. Plumlee, Czyz and Drew haven't made much of an impact yet.

So, again, it really comes down to that 2005 class. Otherwise, the recruiting thing really gets overblown.


Yes, and aside from that Mrs. Lincoln...

UNC's highly touted 2005 class produced two future NBA players that stayed four years, Duke's highly touted 2005 class, God love them, didn't. And while Henderson and Scheyer may have now reached a level of impact close to that of Lawson and Ellington (mostly Lawson), the Duke guards took longer to reach that level, which really hurt Duke in 2007.

Heeler4life
03-08-2009, 10:01 PM
Sorry I did get confused...that 14 pt blow out was by us in the first game.

FerryFor50
03-08-2009, 10:02 PM
You wouldn't trade Zoubek for TH? :)

Davis is going to be a real stud by his Jr. year.
On another note I was surprised that Roy gave TZ so many of Davis's minutes tonight, I think the extra effort is good for now, but come tourney time if TZ hasn't found his groove, I look for Davis to get that time back.

Skillwise, I would. TH, as much as I hate his guts, would be a classic Duke player.

But I like Zoubek a lot. And TH has given me 4 years of fits. So, no, I couldn't trade him. Maybe TH for one of our towel boys. :p

As for Zeller, I think Roy is giving him minutes because he knows he'll need him for the tourny.

jv001
03-08-2009, 10:04 PM
After having time to digest this game, I have come up with some thoughts:
1. We could have won this game on their home court.
2. We do have some glaring hole in our lineup. We were out rebounded pretty badly and we allowed them to shoot 53% from the field. A big part of this came from our lack of rebounding (2nd shots).
3. Lance is just not contributing much other than setting picks. He should be rebounding much better. I wish he had McClure's passion for hitting the boards. 31 mins, 2 pts, 2 rebs...
4. Elliot is not a good shooter at this point in his young career. He has a flying elbow that makes him inconsistent both from the field and the Free throw line. He does play excellent defense however and we 're better with him the lineup.
5. Great games from Kyle and Jon. Jon didn't look to be 100% but played with as much heart as I've seen in a long time.
6. Next time we beat them..Go Duke!

devildeac
03-08-2009, 10:05 PM
Sorry I did get confused...that 14 pt blow out was by us in the first game.

Hey mods, like Wheat said, do we really need this IC kind of #$%^ here?

devildeac
03-08-2009, 10:07 PM
After having time to digest this game, I have come up with some thoughts:
1. We could have won this game on their home court.
2. We do have some glaring hole in our lineup. We were out rebounded pretty badly and we allowed them to shoot 53% from the field. A big part of this came from our lack of rebounding (2nd shots).
3. Lance is just not contributing much other than setting picks. He should be rebounding much better. I wish he had McClure's passion for hitting the boards. 31 mins, 2 pts, 2 rebs...
4. Elliot is not a good shooter at this point in his young career. He has a flying elbow that makes him inconsistent both from the field and the Free throw line. He does play excellent defense however and we 're better with him the lineup.
5. Great games from Kyle and Jon. Jon didn't look to be 100% but played with as much heart as I've seen in a long time.
6. Next time we beat them..Go Duke!

If Jon was <100%, I'll take that guy every game:D.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-08-2009, 10:15 PM
As for Zeller, I think Roy is giving him minutes because he knows he'll need him for the tourny.

Agreed, but he is sure looking lost out there. If he doesn't tighten up soon, Davis's 10 minutes will be 13, and TZ's 5 minutes will be 2...

FerryFor50
03-08-2009, 10:19 PM
Agreed, but he is sure looking lost out there. If he doesn't tighten up soon, Davis's 10 minutes will be 13, and TZ's 5 minutes will be 2...

Well you can't expect him to be in late season form after missing most of the season. I honestly think it was a dumb move not to redshirt him.

roywhite
03-08-2009, 10:24 PM
I'm of the opinion that Nolan Smith's return will help this team. How much?...who knows, but we are playing like a legitimate 2-seed or 3-seed now, so additional firepower could be significant.

Smith gives the team another scorer and another defender, and lessens the load somewhat on the current starters. For example, I thought Gerald was well defended today, and wore down somewhat; one of the things that was affected was his rebounding. If he's a little fresher down the stretch, maybe he gets some boards or hits some shots that didn't go down.

Scheyer at the point has made this team more effective offensively and less prone to turnovers. The addition of Smith can be another part of an improved team.

wisteria
03-08-2009, 10:25 PM
Lance has been our best offensive rebounder though. He has a knack (relatively) for it and most of his offense is from the offensive put-back. I'm holding onto the hope that Lance is just not healthy, and he will give us better production when he's 100%.




3. Lance is just not contributing much other than setting picks. He should be rebounding much better. I wish he had McClure's passion for hitting the boards. 31 mins, 2 pts, 2 rebs...
4. Elliot is not a good shooter at this point in his young career. He has a flying elbow that makes him inconsistent both from the field and the Free throw line. He does play excellent defense however and we 're better with him the lineup.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-08-2009, 10:26 PM
Well you can't expect him to be in late season form after missing most of the season. I honestly think it was a dumb move not to redshirt him.

Oh, I don't....But it's tourney time now. He might have 1, maybe 2 more games to show he can step it up. If not, Roy's got to put the best players on the floor.

Could be a dumb move, but it was TZ's call...No way Roy could really make that decision for him, unless he felt he would hurt the team.

FerryFor50
03-08-2009, 10:36 PM
Oh, I don't....But it's tourney time now. He might have 1, maybe 2 more games to show he can step it up. If not, Roy's got to put the best players on the floor.

Could be a dumb move, but it was TZ's call...No way Roy could really make that decision for him, unless he felt he would hurt the team.

I actually thought Zeller was getting fouled a little bit every time he got the ball. But he's a rook not named "Hansbrough," so no ref love. :D

Wheat/"/"/"
03-08-2009, 10:40 PM
Lance has been our best offensive rebounder though. He has a knack (relatively) for it and most of his offense is from the offensive put-back. I'm holding onto the hope that Lance is just not healthy, and he will give us better production when he's 100%.

Lance seems to be the reincarnation of Casey Sanders.
Lot's of heart and effort, but for Duke's expectations, he's a solid back up player that is forced to start.

wisteria
03-08-2009, 10:44 PM
Lance seems to be the reincarnation of Casey Sanders.
Lot's of heart and effort, but for Duke's expectations, he's a solid back up player that is forced to start.

Agreed. I hope one of the Plumlees will step up as our starting center, and Lance can serve as a solid reserve.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-08-2009, 10:46 PM
I actually thought Zeller was getting fouled a little bit every time he got the ball. But he's a rook not named "Hansbrough," so no ref love. :D

I made a point of watching him closely, looking for some of what I saw early in the season...his head was on a swivel...he is probably with a Chiropractor right now...he had no idea where he was supposed to be most of his time.

gotham devil
03-08-2009, 11:41 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I have not thrown in the towel, but if we cannot have some honest discourse here about what has become a trend, then don't call me negative.
...when we play upper tier and more physical teams we tend to have major problems......

Never was I confident that we would win today, after 5 mins into the 2nd half.....to do so we would have had to go on a 3 spree...

I hope we can make a run, I really do
Since we need to remain optimistic, this is our best shot at Final Four for the next few seasons (realistically 2011-12). Enjoy the team for as long as its playing.

Greg_Newton
03-09-2009, 12:46 AM
Since we need to remain optimistic, this is our best shot at Final Four for the next few seasons (realistically 2011-12).

Huh?? Even in the worst case scenario that G leaves and we miss out on both Wall and Bledsoe, we're easily a top 10 team next year, if not better (assuming both Kelly and MP2 aren't complete disasters). If he stays, I would go so far as to say that we're a favorite to win it all. Of course I'm behind this team 100%, but I'm very optimistic about the near future of the program.

chi
03-09-2009, 01:02 AM
I only read randomly over the posts. So, i don't mean to ignore others good perspective posts, but I want to thank Jumbo and Greg_Newton for the good posts.

I also think we controlled the tempo very well and played a good game. We might have won the game if the b-ball god were on our side. We have a good chance to beat UNC if we meet them in the ACC tournament and will surprise a lot of people in the NCAA.

Go Devils!

gotham devil
03-09-2009, 01:16 AM
Even in the worst case scenario that G leaves and we miss out on both Wall and Bledsoe, we're easily a top 10 team next year, if not better (assuming both Kelly and MP2 aren't complete disasters). If he stays, I would go so far as to say that we're a favorite to win it all. Of course I'm behind this team 100%, but I'm very optimistic about the near future of the program.

You would have to acknowledge that the worst case scenario would involve Kyle Singler declaring for the draft and ultimately signing with an agent.

We can all hope that other potential Sweet 16 teams (such as UConn, UNC, Pitt, Wake Forest, Louisville, Michigan St., Memphis, UCLA, Kansas, Syracuse, Clemson, Villanova, Purdue, Oklahoma, etc.) experience massive program atrophy.

Greg_Newton
03-09-2009, 02:04 AM
Thanks Chi!

It would be a heartbreaker if Singler left... but it just doesn't seem all that likely to me (knock on wood). He doesn't really have an NBA-style game right now, and nbadraft.net doesn't have him getting drafted until the late first round in 2010. He seems like a smart enough guy who isn't desperate to get out and score a contract.

As for those other programs, it's true I am assuming they will lose some marquee underclassmen... Thabeet, Griffin, Earl Clark, Teague, Aminu, and Blair are all projected lottery picks, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Lawson tests the waters too. Many of those programs also have seniors that play bigger roles than ours (Hansbrough, Green, Sam Young, Jeff Adrien).

Add a breakout season by Nolan or Elliot, a couple of sorely needed 6-10 recruits that SHOULD (fingers crossed again) be able to contribute right out of the gate, and we're looking pretty good, relatively.

ncexnyc
03-09-2009, 02:51 AM
I wish I had a $1 for everytime someone on this board has used the word "if" in this thread.

"If" we had only hit one or two more threes. "If" we get hot at the right time. Sorry folks, but only the losers dwell on those things and talk about "if."

I'm also glad to see several of you have accepted membership into the Holy Trinity of Shoulda, Coulda, and Woulda.

We coulda beat the holes had we snagged a few more boards. We shoulda won, but we didn't get any production from our 5 spot. We woulda won, but our bench was a no show.

This team shot lights out in the first half, but only had a 1 point lead at the half. It appeared the holes used the same formula from the first game in this game. Rotate players in and keep them fresh. Did we just have another poor shooting 2nd half or were the holes fresher?

chi
03-09-2009, 02:54 AM
Thanks Chi!

It would be a heartbreaker if Singler left... but it just doesn't seem all that likely to me (knock on wood). He doesn't really have an NBA-style game right now, and nbadraft.net doesn't have him getting drafted until the late first round in 2010. He seems like a smart enough guy who isn't desperate to get out and score a contract.

As for those other programs, it's true I am assuming they will lose some marquee underclassmen... Thabeet, Griffin, Earl Clark, Teague, Aminu, and Blair are all projected lottery picks, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Lawson tests the waters too. Many of those programs also have seniors that play bigger roles than ours (Hansbrough, Green, Sam Young, Jeff Adrien).

Add a breakout season by Nolan or Elliot, a couple of sorely needed 6-10 recruits that SHOULD (fingers crossed again) be able to contribute right out of the gate, and we're looking pretty good, relatively.

I would not worry too much about Singler or G leaving. they are still with us now, let's just enjoy them and the team's journey till it ends, hopefully with a NC champion :).

for similar reasons, I would also not too worry about the recruits. Let's just let nature takes it course ...

but I do hope that Lawson test the water ;)

I just listened to K's post game comments. I really like what he had to say. For eg, "Michael and I are unbelievably good friend, ... that does not mean that we don't want to beat them". I also like how he praised Tyler, UNC, saying that he respects them, but at the end, ended with, "I respect my team too". he is very good at that. Frankly, it beats me that some or most UNC fans cannot see the good in K ...

NYC Duke Fan
03-09-2009, 03:31 AM
I could not watch the game yesterday and to my dismay my TIVO did not work when I came home to watch the game.I saw in the box score that Zoubek played 7 minutes and had 3 PFs. I have seen him play several times this year and on a few occaisions I have said to myself that finally I see why Coach K recruited him, only to see him in the next game virtually contribute nothing.

It seems that in big games Coach K does not have confidence in him, which is too bad because he could offer what Duke lacks, an inside presence.

Does anyone with more basketball savy then me think that Brian will improve next year or is what we are seeing about all that we can expect?

I understand that it takes big men longer to develop but I thought that Brian would be more advanced than he has shown. I was comparing him to a recent center on Pittsburgh...forgot his name who became a very good college center.

I know that Thomas and Smith were hurt, but I did not see Plumlee's name in the box score...Was he also hurt or was it a coach's decision not to play him?

ice-9
03-09-2009, 04:08 AM
Gerald just didn't seem to have it today. Not effective shooting from the field (he was 4 of 11 and had like 2 or 3 dunks) and had too many turnovers. He made some spectacular drives though and had some nice dishes.

I haven't read through the thread, so don't know if this has been addressed, but I disagree with the statement that Gerald didn't have a good game. The UNC defense absolutely keyed in on him. Every time he was in a scoring position the defense would collapse around him.

Last season, when that happened G usually just took the low percentage shot. This season, and in the UNC game in particular, I thought G did an excellent job kicking it out to the open man. (Too bad we couldn't knock them down in the second half).

G played a very good game. He may not have been dominant from a points scored perspective, but he played within the offense and he created for others.

_Gary
03-09-2009, 04:24 AM
I haven't read literally every single post, but I have read the majority. Like many of you, I have a really good feeling about this team. Doesn't mean I think they are going to win a NC, but then again I wouldn't be shocked beyond belief either if we did pull that off. I think we have found a great combo that is working for us (Scheyer at point - which I freely admit I didn't like at first), and a more uptempo style. In my mind we do need everyone healthy in order to have a real chance at a run. I think Nolan could have given us a huge boost today and we would have had a real chance to win if he was there. So getting him back healthy, along with having Lance and Jon completely healed up is key.

Of course I didn't like a few of the calls, especially the ones involving Hansflopper, but come on... You can't blame me for that. Nevertheless, that didn't cost us the game and I don't want to be accused of Terping so I'll leave it at that. To my way of thinking we lost simply because we got significantly out-boarded and they got fairly hot in the 2nd half. If both those things are a little more evened out the game goes down to the wire with either team having a chance to win.

I really do like the makeup of the team right now. And while I don't want to put any pressure or unreal expectations on this team, I am going to maintain something I said a month or so ago: this is an Elite Eight team and that's the point I'd like to see them advance to in order for me personally to consider this a truly great year. Anything less and I just can't, in my heart, call it a great year. Satisfying maybe, but not great if they can't push past the Sweet 16. I truly think Duke is one of the top 8 teams in the nation, so all things being equal I want and expect them to make it to the 2nd round of the 2nd weekend.

Let's Go Duke! :)


Gary

heyman25
03-09-2009, 04:46 AM
I think in 3 years he has not gotten it. Blame it on injuries or whatever,he would have made an impact in the Ivy League perhaps but not the ACC. His instincts for getting rebounds are very suspect.

After seeing todays loss, Duke came up short because our role players score little or next to nothing. UNC pounded us on the boards. I hope Kelly and Mason Plumlee will contibute more next season than Miles Plumlee and Brian Zoubek have contributed this year. Duke recruiting has been why we are coming up short. Its really a shame that Kyle doesn't have the big man support that Tyler Hansborough gets. Duke has been weak in the paint for years.

NYC Duke Fan
03-09-2009, 05:14 AM
I think in 3 years he has not gotten it. Blame it on injuries or whatever,he would have made an impact in the Ivy League perhaps but not the ACC. His instincts for getting rebounds are very suspect.

After seeing todays loss, Duke came up short because our role players score little or next to nothing. UNC pounded us on the boards. I hope Kelly and Mason Plumlee will contibute more next season than Miles Plumlee and Brian Zoubek have contributed this year. Duke recruiting has been why we are coming up short. Its really a shame that Kyle doesn't have the big man support that Tyler Hansborough gets. Duke has been weak in the paint for years.

To his credit, Coach K recruited both Patterson and Monroe very heavily, but for whatever reason they chose not to come to Duke. It is ironic though that both Kentucky and Georgetown might not make the tournament this year and had both Patterson and Monroe both come to Duke we might have been looking at possible back to back championships or at the least 2 Final 4 appearances.

I have not seen either Mason Plumlee or Ryan Kelly play but from what I have read neither are board pounders, so unless Miles and Brian improve over the summer, Duke will have the same problems next year.

Incidentally, good point about Zoubek...he would have been a very good to excellent Ivy league player...he probably should have gone to one of the Ivy League schools instead of Duke.

heyman25
03-09-2009, 05:33 AM
To his credit, Coach K recruited both Patterson and Monroe very heavily, but for whatever reason they chose not to come to Duke. It is ironic though that both Kentucky and Georgetown might not make the tournament this year and had both Patterson and Monroe both come to Duke we might have been looking at possible back to back championships or at the least 2 Final 4 appearances.

I have not seen either Mason Plumlee or Ryan Kelly play but from what I have read neither are board pounders, so unless Miles and Brian improve over the summer, Duke will have the same problems next year.

Incidentally, good point about Zoubek...he would have been a very good to excellent Ivy league player...he probably should have gone to one of the Ivy League schools instead of Duke.

Yes we recruited Monroe and Patterson,but you see guys like DeJuan Blair who was not heavily recruited and is the best power forward in college ball outside of Blake Griffin. Duke needs backup plans. I hope the coaching staff has learned that. I think Nate James will be a huge help in our future recruiting.The class of 2010 needs Barnes and another pg.That class will be full of athletic ballplayers.We don't need any more Superstar McDonald's Allstar, we need a class of solid athletic basketball players. 2009 we got burned by Boynton. Its unnecessary to waste so much time and energy on one prospect.

House G
03-09-2009, 07:02 AM
I actually think this team is fantastic. It's probably one of my favorite Duke teams in recent memory. I love the big 3, the emergence of EWill as a force, and the sheer grit and determination of players like McClure, Thomas, and Paulus is exciting to watch. Sure, we aren't as dominant as in the past, but it's always a fun ride.

I think we have the chance to go very deep in the tournament. We are incredibly dangerous. Jon, G, and Kyle are all all-American caliber players and if they get hot at the same time, we would be nearly unstoppable. Unfortunately for us it seems as though one of them has an off-night when the other two are clicking.

Anyway, I love this team and I can't wait to see how everything turns out.
I feel the exactly same way! If we continue to play like we have been, I think we will be a very tough out in the tournament. Also, we will not have the added pressure of being a #1 seed and (if possible for a Duke team) may be able to "fly under the radar" for a while. With any luck, this could be the year that we meet up with Carolina in the Final Four. I would love to play them one more time on a neutral court with all the pressure on them.

Matches
03-09-2009, 07:11 AM
I want another shot at them.

rotogod00
03-09-2009, 07:28 AM
i agree with most in saying that we played much better than the 1st game (and we are playing better in general). however, our lack of bench is a serious problem....0 points and more importantly, only 19 minutes. now i know that nolan coming back will help, but he's no miracle cure. starters logging 35+ minutes isn't the recipe for success in the tournament especially with quick turnaround games.

MChambers
03-09-2009, 07:31 AM
I'm of the opinion that Nolan Smith's return will help this team. How much?...who knows, but we are playing like a legitimate 2-seed or 3-seed now, so additional firepower could be significant.

Smith gives the team another scorer and another defender, and lessens the load somewhat on the current starters. For example, I thought Gerald was well defended today, and wore down somewhat; one of the things that was affected was his rebounding. If he's a little fresher down the stretch, maybe he gets some boards or hits some shots that didn't go down.

Scheyer at the point has made this team more effective offensively and less prone to turnovers. The addition of Smith can be another part of an improved team.

Gosh, back in December it looked like we might have a big four, rather than a big three, because Nolan was playing so well. If he can just give a good Nolan Smith, at 15 minutes a game, we'll be fine.

roywhite
03-09-2009, 07:38 AM
To his credit, Coach K recruited both Patterson and Monroe very heavily, but for whatever reason they chose not to come to Duke. It is ironic though that both Kentucky and Georgetown might not make the tournament this year and had both Patterson and Monroe both come to Duke we might have been looking at possible back to back championships or at the least 2 Final 4 appearances.

I have not seen either Mason Plumlee or Ryan Kelly play but from what I have read neither are board pounders, so unless Miles and Brian improve over the summer, Duke will have the same problems next year.

Incidentally, good point about Zoubek...he would have been a very good to excellent Ivy league player...he probably should have gone to one of the Ivy League schools instead of Duke.

Both Mason Plumlee and Ryan Kelly are ranked higher than any big man recruit we've had since Josh McRoberts. A little too early to write them off.

And too early to write off this year's team. It's not a big team, but has significant talent, is playing well, and approaches the post-season better prepared than in the last few years. The return of Nolan Smith can be a plus.

Do we have a dominant inside player? No, but this is a very good team.

Matches
03-09-2009, 08:07 AM
i agree with most in saying that we played much better than the 1st game (and we are playing better in general). however, our lack of bench is a serious problem....0 points and more importantly, only 19 minutes. now i know that nolan coming back will help, but he's no miracle cure. starters logging 35+ minutes isn't the recipe for success in the tournament especially with quick turnaround games.

Sorry, I just don't buy that. UNC's real bench players (i.e. not Ellington and Thompson) had only 7 points and didn't play all that much more than our guys did. I think K will use the bench more when we play games in close proximity (and when Nolan is ready to go), but we had four days off before the UNC game and another four days off afterward. Our five starters should've been able to play all 40 minutes if needed.

rotogod00
03-09-2009, 08:17 AM
Sorry, I just don't buy that. UNC's real bench players (i.e. not Ellington and Thompson) had only 7 points and didn't play all that much more than our guys did. I think K will use the bench more when we play games in close proximity (and when Nolan is ready to go), but we had four days off before the UNC game and another four days off afterward. Our five starters should've been able to play all 40 minutes if needed.

I hope you're right, but coaches tend to shrink benches even more in the tournament

RepoMan
03-09-2009, 08:28 AM
But, essentially, the difference is the current senior class.

Exactly. And, if you want to really drive home the point, it is the difference between McRoberts and Hans. Imagine if those players swapped teams. Heck, imagine if McRoberts was here for 4 years and was manning the post right now. Things would be a lot different.

NYC Duke Fan
03-09-2009, 08:40 AM
Both Mason Plumlee and Ryan Kelly are ranked higher than any big man recruit we've had since Josh McRoberts. A little too early to write them off.

And too early to write off this year's team. It's not a big team, but has significant talent, is playing well, and approaches the post-season better prepared than in the last few years. The return of Nolan Smith can be a plus.

Do we have a dominant inside player? No, but this is a very good team.

I am not writing them off at all. My point was from what I have read they are not inside bangers who will give Duke the inside presence that they lack.

rotogod00
03-09-2009, 08:42 AM
I am not writing them off at all. My point was from what I have read they are not inside bangers who will give Duke the inside presence that they lack.

agree with you 100%. they're very talented but not inside players, which personally is what i think we need to get back to that elite level.

jimsumner
03-09-2009, 09:06 AM
"Yes we recruited Monroe and Patterson,but you see guys like DeJuan Blair who was not heavily recruited and is the best power forward in college ball outside of Blake Griffin. Duke needs backup plans"


Blair had significant academic issues and grew up within walking distance of the Pitt campus. Duke was never going to sign him and any resources they devoted to him would have been wasted.

Patrick Patterson was a back-up. Duke started recruiting him after missing on Blake Griffin and Gary Johnson and deciding not to pursue Kevin Love.

Lance Thomas was a back-up to Brandon Wright.

Duke loved Spencer Hawes in the h.s. class of '06 but came to the (correct) conclusion that he would never leave the Pacifc Northwest. So,they turned their attention to Zoubek.

After getting committments from McRoberts and Boateng, Duke ardently pursued Jon Brockman.

Duke missed on Greg Monroe, signed Miles Plumlee. And Olek, who they viewed as a project but a solid ACC 4 down the road.

Duke missed on Eric Murphy and Greg Echenique, got a committment within weeks from Mason Plumlee. Then Ryan Kelly.

Long-time readers of this and other boards probably know where I'm going, to skip the next paragraphs if you've heard it before.

There exists in some portions of the Duke fan base the idea that Duke should be able to sign anyone it wants to. So, when someone like Blair or Stephen Curry or James Harden develops into a star, everyone wants to know why Duke didn't recruit them. Academics, attitude, playing style and other variables weed out the field.

And believe it or not, not everyone wants to go Duke, not everyone wants to play for Mike Krzyzewski. We all would if we were 18 and had the chance. There are numerous great high school players who are tentatively approached by Duke. Mututal flirtation. But sometimes you smile at the person across the room and they don't smile back. So you don't devote precious resources on a lost cause.

Sure you missevaluate people. The whole freaking world missed on Curry. But the idea that Duke is somehow missing on great players who want to come to Duke because Duke doesn't know what it's doing on the recruiting trail just doesn't hold water.

IMO.

jv001
03-09-2009, 09:19 AM
Gosh, back in December it looked like we might have a big four, rather than a big three, because Nolan was playing so well. If he can just give a good Nolan Smith, at 15 minutes a game, we'll be fine.

I think if a healthy Nolan Smith had played yesterday against unc, we may have won this game. Several times Gerald, Jon or Kyle drove to the basket and was doubled or tripled teamed. They passed the ball to Elliot and he was wide open. A healthy Nolan Smith with that much time would have hit some of those shots. Then unc would have had to guard the open man and would have given Gerald more room to drive to the basket. IMO. Go Duke!

Devil in the Blue Dress
03-09-2009, 09:23 AM
"Yes we recruited Monroe and Patterson,but you see guys like DeJuan Blair who was not heavily recruited and is the best power forward in college ball outside of Blake Griffin. Duke needs backup plans"


Blair had significant academic issues and grew up within walking distance of the Pitt campus. Duke was never going to sign him and any resources they devoted to him would have been wasted.

Patrick Patterson was a back-up. Duke started recruiting him after missing on Blake Griffin and Gary Johnson and deciding not to pursue Kevin Love.

Lance Thomas was a back-up to Brandon Wright.

Duke loved Spencer Hawes in the h.s. class of '06 but came to the (correct) conclusion that he would never leave the Pacifc Northwest. So,they turned their attention to Zoubek.

After getting committments from McRoberts and Boateng, Duke ardently pursued Jon Brockman.

Duke missed on Greg Monroe, signed Miles Plumlee. And Olek, who they viewed as a project but a solid ACC 4 down the road.

Duke missed on Eric Murphy and Greg Echenique, got a committment within weeks from Mason Plumlee. Then Ryan Kelly.

Long-time readers of this and other boards probably know where I'm going, to skip the next paragraphs if you've heard it before.

There exists in some portions of the Duke fan base the idea that Duke should be able to sign anyone it wants to. So, when someone like Blair or Stephen Curry or James Harden develops into a star, everyone wants to know why Duke didn't recruit them. Academics, attitude, playing style and other variables weed out the field.

And believe it or not, not everyone wants to go Duke, not everyone wants to play for Mike Krzyzewski. We all would if we were 18 and had the chance. There are numerous great high school players who are tentatively approached by Duke. Mututal flirtation. But sometimes you smile at the person across the room and they don't smile back. So you don't devote precious resources on a lost cause.

Sure you missevaluate people. The whole freaking world missed on Curry. But the idea that Duke is somehow missing on great players who want to come to Duke because Duke doesn't know what it's doing on the recruiting trail just doesn't hold water.

IMO.

This is a very pertinent post. It's a useful effort for all of us to take a moment and consider all the points Jim has made. As fans we may tend to view recruiting from a distance and without complete information.

roywhite
03-09-2009, 09:26 AM
I am not writing them off at all. My point was from what I have read they are not inside bangers who will give Duke the inside presence that they lack.

I think you'll find that Mason Plumlee can block shots, rebound, and score around the basket, and that Ryan Kelly is a very versatile scorer. They are skilled and have even further potential.

We've had success with Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, and Shelden Williams as powerful inside players. But we've also had success with Danny Ferry, Christian Laettner, and Cherokee Parks as versatile big men. Mason Plumlee and Kelly just happen to fall in the latter category.

CallUsPaulus
03-09-2009, 09:28 AM
"And believe it or not, not everyone wants to go Duke, not everyone wants to play for Mike Krzyzewski. We all would if we were 18 and had the chance. There are numerous great high school players who are tentatively approached by Duke. Mututal flirtation. But sometimes you smile at the person across the room and they don't smile back. So you don't devote precious resources on a lost cause.




For a lot of high school stars, a successful professional career is a big priority. For obvious reasons. Is Duke the best place to play with the NBA in mind? My guess is, recruiters from other schools are hammering it into prospects that Coach K is reluctant to give freshmen big playing time, and has a poor track record of churning out players with successful pro careers. These top-tier players know they can play right away at certain schools, and, for better or worse, they won't be held back. That means quicker development, and it also means a chance to be drafted high after one or two years. I bet we lose a lot of recruits on that argument.

jimsumner
03-09-2009, 09:57 AM
They also know they can go lots of places for a year and give only minimal lip-service to the "student" part of "student athlete." Duke actually insists that its players attend classes, write their own papers, meet with academic types, the sort of distraction that not every school inflicts on their players.

In other words, there are high school players with the academics to get into Duke but not the desire to actually take advantage of that opportunity.

BlueintheFace
03-09-2009, 10:01 AM
I want another shot at them.

Not me. I'm done.

From here on out I want to SURVIVE AND ADVANCE because it is tourney time. We have played two solid games against Carolina, utilizing two very different tactics. Both times we have just come up short against a truly good team. I want to see the weakest team available game to game from here on out.

MChambers
03-09-2009, 10:07 AM
For a lot of high school stars, a successful professional career is a big priority. For obvious reasons. Is Duke the best place to play with the NBA in mind? My guess is, recruiters from other schools are hammering it into prospects that Coach K is reluctant to give freshmen big playing time, and has a poor track record of churning out players with successful pro careers. These top-tier players know they can play right away at certain schools, and, for better or worse, they won't be held back. That means quicker development, and it also means a chance to be drafted high after one or two years. I bet we lose a lot of recruits on that argument.

They can make those arguments, but the facts don't support them. As to big playing time freshman year, look how Coach K held back Kyle Singler? Or, if you want to go further back, look at Jason Williams?

As to NBA careers, you've got to be kidding. Boozer? Brand? Hill? How about the No-Stats All-Star? Duke has the highest or one of the highest payrolls in the NBA.

So I think you are wrong to post those arguments here without pointing out how flawed they are.

jipops
03-09-2009, 10:09 AM
This is a very pertinent post. It's a useful effort for all of us to take a moment and consider all the points Jim has made. As fans we may tend to view recruiting from a distance and without complete information.

This may be how 99.99% of the sports world views recruiting.

ncexnyc
03-09-2009, 10:13 AM
I want another shot at them.

Hopefully you get your wish and this time I hope we take more advantage of the mismatch at PG. Let's put Jon down on the blocks against Lawson, Jon should be able to abuse Ty. Let's also make sure to add a winkle where we Singler can hide in the corner so when the holes adjust to Jon down low he can feed it to Kyle for a wide open 3.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-09-2009, 10:17 AM
Coach K has not recruited very many true post players in his career, it's not generally his style. To each his own.

He has certainly been successful by anyone's measure of success in college basketball. So I find it hard to second guess him, even tho I would do it differently myself.

I think he depends more on "chemistry" than most coaches. When he gets it right, Duke is where you all want Duke to be. Fast, exciting, fun to watch. When he misses, he's still way up there...nobody is 100%

"Chemistry" especially in college basketball, is an inexact science.

InSpades
03-09-2009, 10:20 AM
I haven't read through the thread, so don't know if this has been addressed, but I disagree with the statement that Gerald didn't have a good game. The UNC defense absolutely keyed in on him. Every time he was in a scoring position the defense would collapse around him.

Last season, when that happened G usually just took the low percentage shot. This season, and in the UNC game in particular, I thought G did an excellent job kicking it out to the open man. (Too bad we couldn't knock them down in the second half).

G played a very good game. He may not have been dominant from a points scored perspective, but he played within the offense and he created for others.

He was 4 of 11 from the field while getting atleast 2 open dunks (1 of those he may have created for himself). He also had 5 of our 11 turnovers. Defenses are going to key on Henderson, he has to do a better job of dealing with it or we will not go very far. At the very least he has to limit his turnovers. He did have a few nice dishes though (particularly the one to Lance). It just seemed like Gerald was off a little bit. He didn't have a bad game, but he didn't have a good game either. Bottom line is we need more from him, especially if we are going to beat a team like UNC.

roywhite
03-09-2009, 10:31 AM
He was 4 of 11 from the field while getting atleast 2 open dunks (1 of those he may have created for himself). He also had 5 of our 11 turnovers. Defenses are going to key on Henderson, he has to do a better job of dealing with it or we will not go very far. At the very least he has to limit his turnovers. He did have a few nice dishes though (particularly the one to Lance). It just seemed like Gerald was off a little bit. He didn't have a bad game, but he didn't have a good game either. Bottom line is we need more from him, especially if we are going to beat a team like UNC.

Danny Green is one of the more effective defenders against Gerald in the league. Yeah, Gerald probably needed to find the pass more when he was closely guarded. And rebound better (it's asking a lot for a guy in his size range to rebound well against a big team like UNC, but we need that).

If we are fortunate enough to play the Heels again in the ACC final, I'd bet on Gerald having a very good game. He is good enough to make adjustments.

GoingFor#5
03-09-2009, 10:37 AM
I thought we played pretty well, but more importantly I think we've shown a toughness lately that will serve us well on neutral site games in the post-season.

rsvman
03-09-2009, 11:23 AM
I am much less disappointed than I thought I would be. The team played well. The strategy of slowing the game down was the right choice, even though we walked out of there with the 'L.'

I didn't really feel like we were in danger of winning this game at any point, even though it was close.

Duke can beat any team in the nation on any given night. I expect them to do better in the NCAAT this year than they have in recent years.

Go Duke!

jimsumner
03-09-2009, 11:27 AM
Getting Smith, Zoubek, and Thomas healthy and integrating them back into the new Scheyer-Williams backcourt certainly gives reason for optimism as March progresses.

grossbus
03-09-2009, 12:18 PM
"I really see the way this team is constructed for long-term success."

jumbo, i am unsure what you mean by this. seems to me that this season is already in the short term. are you talking about next year?

"this could be the year that we meet up with Carolina in the Final Four. I would love to play them one more time on a neutral court with all the pressure on them."

be careful what you wish for.

The Gordog
03-09-2009, 12:29 PM
I have read through about half of the posts here and I just have to address the folks who have opined that 'we got outrebounded' or something to that effect.

I am wondering if we watched the same game.

After every shot we took our guys immediately started to get back on defense in order to cut off the possability of fast breaks. That succeeded as Carolina only a couple the whole game. Giving up those rebounds was a deliberate tactical decision by K. Our players did not 'get outrebounded' at all. OK there were a couple of times I noticed Lance failing to box out Lawson, but I chalked that up to his bad wheel. If he is 100% the next time we play I feel very good about our chances.

calltheobvious
03-09-2009, 12:37 PM
"Yes we recruited Monroe and Patterson,but you see guys like DeJuan Blair who was not heavily recruited and is the best power forward in college ball outside of Blake Griffin. Duke needs backup plans"


Blair had significant academic issues and grew up within walking distance of the Pitt campus. Duke was never going to sign him and any resources they devoted to him would have been wasted.

Patrick Patterson was a back-up. Duke started recruiting him after missing on Blake Griffin and Gary Johnson and deciding not to pursue Kevin Love.

Lance Thomas was a back-up to Brandon Wright.

Duke loved Spencer Hawes in the h.s. class of '06 but came to the (correct) conclusion that he would never leave the Pacifc Northwest. So,they turned their attention to Zoubek.

After getting committments from McRoberts and Boateng, Duke ardently pursued Jon Brockman.

Duke missed on Greg Monroe, signed Miles Plumlee. And Olek, who they viewed as a project but a solid ACC 4 down the road.

Duke missed on Eric Murphy and Greg Echenique, got a committment within weeks from Mason Plumlee. Then Ryan Kelly.

Long-time readers of this and other boards probably know where I'm going, to skip the next paragraphs if you've heard it before.

There exists in some portions of the Duke fan base the idea that Duke should be able to sign anyone it wants to. So, when someone like Blair or Stephen Curry or James Harden develops into a star, everyone wants to know why Duke didn't recruit them. Academics, attitude, playing style and other variables weed out the field.

And believe it or not, not everyone wants to go Duke, not everyone wants to play for Mike Krzyzewski. We all would if we were 18 and had the chance. There are numerous great high school players who are tentatively approached by Duke. Mututal flirtation. But sometimes you smile at the person across the room and they don't smile back. So you don't devote precious resources on a lost cause.

Sure you missevaluate people. The whole freaking world missed on Curry. But the idea that Duke is somehow missing on great players who want to come to Duke because Duke doesn't know what it's doing on the recruiting trail just doesn't hold water.

IMO.

Oh great Forest, how blind we have been to thee.

First, Jim, imo you should never qualify one of your posts with imo.

Second, I think your ideas about about 'spending precious resources' and 'not everyone wants to come to Duke' are most of the ballgame here.

Beyond the general myopia that almost all of us are susceptible to, I think that most of the recruiting criticisms of the last couple of years are more indicative of us being a spoiled fanbase than anything else. It's sad (or not) that it's gotten to the point where some of us feel a certain level of cognitive dissonance any time we look out onto the floor and see that Duke doesn't have the most talented group. It can't just be luck of the draw, it has to be that someone wasn't doing his job very well.

Oh well, maybe none of that adds anything to the discussion, but reading your post certainly helped me put some things into better perspective. Thanks.

NSDukeFan
03-09-2009, 12:49 PM
I could not watch the game yesterday and to my dismay my TIVO did not work when I came home to watch the game.I saw in the box score that Zoubek played 7 minutes and had 3 PFs. I have seen him play several times this year and on a few occaisions I have said to myself that finally I see why Coach K recruited him, only to see him in the next game virtually contribute nothing.

It seems that in big games Coach K does not have confidence in him, which is too bad because he could offer what Duke lacks, an inside presence.

Does anyone with more basketball savy then me think that Brian will improve next year or is what we are seeing about all that we can expect?

I understand that it takes big men longer to develop but I thought that Brian would be more advanced than he has shown. I was comparing him to a recent center on Pittsburgh...forgot his name who became a very good college center.

I know that Thomas and Smith were hurt, but I did not see Plumlee's name in the box score...Was he also hurt or was it a coach's decision not to play him?

I think Aaron Gray was the center from Pitt you were thinking of. I don't think Z will be as good as he turned out, but he does have a lot of good thinks to offer (especially being 7'1). I believe Miles had a DNP-Coach's Decision. I believe injuries have limited Brian's development and, more specifically, time to develop, but see no reason why he can't help us this year and be a big factor for us next year. (An injury-free summer and chance to work on his game would help)

This reminds me a bit of the Elton Brand situation in Philly before he got hurt. (Obviously Elton being the far superior player, but just in terms of styles) Philly, early on, was trying very hard to get EB (their best player) involved, but got away from a lot of what it did best the previous year. Z can help us in a lot of ways, but when we have him on the floor (I would say the same about Greg, who could be contributing much more), it changes our identity from a lineup of 5 excellent, mostly-interchangeable defenders. I hope we get more from both Greg and Z in the tournaments, but it changes our defensive identity when we do. A difficult conundrum for the coaches.

It seems timely after the recent posts about what DBR is all about, but this has been one of my favorite threads for some good chuckles when some posters have been put in their place for absurd statements about a very good basketball team. Maybe it will also happen to me and I will add to others' entertainment. :)

diesel
03-09-2009, 12:55 PM
From today's Wall Street Journal: the difference between the Big 10 and the ACC
"(2) UNC vs. (7) Duke

College basketball isn't known as much for its regional differences as college football, but yesterday's Duke-North Carolina game painted them starkly. After watching a weekend of walk-it-up basketball in the Big Ten, the athleticism of the Blue Devils and Tar Heels was stunning. At one point, ultra-athletic Duke forward Gerald Henderson missed a shot but leaped over two Heels to grab his own carom. CBS analyst Clark Kellogg -- a refreshing, upbeat change from dour predecessor Billy Packer -- aptly called it a "big-boy" rebound. The clearly superior Tar Heels ran away with the game at the end 79-71, but there were just enough dazzling moments to make it well worth the time.
óDarren Everson contributed to this article

Write to Tim Marchman at tlmarchman@gmail.com"

roywhite
03-09-2009, 01:04 PM
From today's Wall Street Journal: the difference between the Big 10 and the ACC
"(2) UNC vs. (7) Duke

College basketball isn't known as much for its regional differences as college football, but yesterday's Duke-North Carolina game painted them starkly. After watching a weekend of walk-it-up basketball in the Big Ten, the athleticism of the Blue Devils and Tar Heels was stunning. At one point, ultra-athletic Duke forward Gerald Henderson missed a shot but leaped over two Heels to grab his own carom.


Wouldn't mind seeing a few B10/11 teams in our bracket.

ChicagoHeel
03-09-2009, 01:42 PM
I am a long-time reader, but this is my first post to DBR. As the username makes clear, Iím a Tarheel fan and hope to convince you that Wheat is not the only reasonable one out there. Iíve long been impressed with this board. The discussion- both in terms of its civility and substance- reflects well on Duke fans and Iím envious that UNC has nothing that approaches it.

Just a quick comment on yesterdayís game- it basically played out as it should have. There have been a lot of ďwhat ifĒ comments in this thread, but if you look at opponents shooting percentage the game went according to script. Since the last UNC-Duke meeting, Dukeís six opponents have averaged 52.4% from the field and UNCís five opponents have shot 44.7%. Yesterday, UNC shot 52.8% and Duke shot 44%. Obviously, Duke can take a lot of positives out of the game and it is clear that Duke is a better team than they were in the first meeting, but that FG percentage should be cause for considerable concern. We agonize about our defensive lapses, but Iíll take our numbers over yours in a heartbeat.

ClosetHurleyFan
03-09-2009, 01:47 PM
I am a long-time reader, but this is my first post to DBR. As the username makes clear, Iím a Tarheel fan and hope to convince you that Wheat is not the only reasonable one out there. Iíve long been impressed with this board. The discussion- both in terms of its civility and substance- reflects well on Duke fans and Iím envious that UNC has nothing that approaches it.

Just a quick comment on yesterdayís game- it basically played out as it should have. There have been a lot of ďwhat ifĒ comments in this thread, but if you look at opponents shooting percentage the game went according to script. Since the last UNC-Duke meeting, Dukeís six opponents have averaged 52.4% from the field and UNCís five opponents have shot 44.7%. Yesterday, UNC shot 52.8% and Duke shot 44%. Obviously, Duke can take a lot of positives out of the game and it is clear that Duke is a better team than they were in the first meeting, but that FG percentage should be cause for considerable concern. We agonize about our defensive lapses, but Iíll take our numbers over yours in a heartbeat.


Good to see another well mannered heel fan out here. This is a fantastic site. I dont post very often either (used to more back in the 2002-2005 timeframe) but enjoy the thoughts of guys like Wheat, GW67, Jason Evans, etc.......

MChambers
03-09-2009, 02:23 PM
I am a long-time reader, but this is my first post to DBR. As the username makes clear, Iím a Tarheel fan and hope to convince you that Wheat is not the only reasonable one out there. Iíve long been impressed with this board. The discussion- both in terms of its civility and substance- reflects well on Duke fans and Iím envious that UNC has nothing that approaches it.

Just a quick comment on yesterdayís game- it basically played out as it should have. There have been a lot of ďwhat ifĒ comments in this thread, but if you look at opponents shooting percentage the game went according to script. Since the last UNC-Duke meeting, Dukeís six opponents have averaged 52.4% from the field and UNCís five opponents have shot 44.7%. Yesterday, UNC shot 52.8% and Duke shot 44%. Obviously, Duke can take a lot of positives out of the game and it is clear that Duke is a better team than they were in the first meeting, but that FG percentage should be cause for considerable concern. We agonize about our defensive lapses, but Iíll take our numbers over yours in a heartbeat.
While I'd always rather be holding opponents to a lower shooting percentage, I don't think you should draw too much from that statistic. First, Duke didn't get to play GT at home, like UNC did, which has to skew the numbers. We also played Wake, which is a tough team to defend (as UNC knows). Second, Duke's defense is predicated less on lowering shooting percentage than UNC's. Duke tends to take away the 3s and force turnover; UNC doesn't.

NSDukeFan
03-09-2009, 02:23 PM
I am a long-time reader, but this is my first post to DBR. As the username makes clear, I’m a Tarheel fan and hope to convince you that Wheat is not the only reasonable one out there. I’ve long been impressed with this board. The discussion- both in terms of its civility and substance- reflects well on Duke fans and I’m envious that UNC has nothing that approaches it.

Just a quick comment on yesterday’s game- it basically played out as it should have. There have been a lot of “what if” comments in this thread, but if you look at opponents shooting percentage the game went according to script. Since the last UNC-Duke meeting, Duke’s six opponents have averaged 52.4% from the field and UNC’s five opponents have shot 44.7%. Yesterday, UNC shot 52.8% and Duke shot 44%. Obviously, Duke can take a lot of positives out of the game and it is clear that Duke is a better team than they were in the first meeting, but that FG percentage should be cause for considerable concern. We agonize about our defensive lapses, but I’ll take our numbers over yours in a heartbeat.

You make a great statistical argument, but one thing I might add in Duke's defense (pun intended) is though we have been giving up too high a FG% to our opponents lately, we have been turning them over frequently to generate more opportunities and mostly out-rebounded or been close in rebounding. Our D may not be where it was at the beginning of the year, but there is more to it than FG%. You can argue of course, in UNC's case, because of tempo, there is more to D than points allowed.

namvet1965
03-09-2009, 03:09 PM
I took a drink every time they mentioned Ty Lawson's stubbed toe. Too drunk to discuss the game now.

QUOTE: "Try walking in someone else's shoes!"

I'm sure Ty could haveused a drink also! Must have hurt like hell. If you have ever hurt your foot you would know. More nerve endings in the fingers and toes per sq mm than anywhere else. I can tell you that foot pain of various types puts more soldiers out of commision than just about anything else, Ty was not up to his par, but it was enough, did you not think?

Great game. You guys (Duke) played great. Had me scared the whole time. I could just see the game swinging dark blue until the very end. 2 great teams and too bad one had to lose, Hands down we are best 2 in USA almost every year, My family in GA and Alabama don't understand it and I can't explain it to them,

allenmurray
03-09-2009, 03:22 PM
QUOTE: "Try walking in someone else's shoes!"

I'm sure Ty could haveused a drink also! Must have hurt like hell. If you have ever hurt your foot you would know. More nerve endings in the fingers and toes per sq mm than anywhere else. I can tell you that foot pain of various types puts more soldiers out of commision than just about anything else, Ty was not up to his par, but it was enough, did you not think?


I have no doubt that Lawson was in incredible pain. Sometimes an injury that is not quite as "serious" in terms of its long-tem impact can be even more painful than one that is. I've had cuts that required multiple stitches that I wasn't even aware of until someone asked why there was blood on my pants leg, and paper cuts that hurt so bad I had tears streaming down my face. For all we know Lawson was in extreme pain and was being more heroic than we realize. I am not being sarcastic, I am completely serious.

My issue is more with the announcers. The frequency with which they mentioned TL's toe was amazing. I fels like I was at a podiatry convention, not watching a basketball game.

BD80
03-09-2009, 03:25 PM
... 2 great teams and too bad one had to lose, Hands down we are best 2 in USA almost every year, My family in GA and Alabama don't understand it and I can't explain it to them,

SEC fans? Try using smaller words. Pictures would probably help. :D

Mal
03-09-2009, 03:42 PM
I'm shocked by how limited many Duke fans are in their hopes for this team.
...
There are very, very few teams that are clearly better than Duke this year. And Duke can beat any of the teams that anyone would rank ahead of them. Does that mean Duke will win such a game? Of course not. And sure, this team could get picked off by a lesser team on the wrong night, too. But Duke has a shot against anyone. For sure.

I think for some of us, Jumbo, we've just started to flinch at getting hopes up at all. All the things you say in the rest of your post are true - this team is capable of beating anyone on a good night. They seem to be showing a grit and toughness and will to win somewhat lacking the last couple of seasons. They appear to have had time to recover from their later in the season swoon, unlike the last few years where they clearly peaked in early Feb. and slid downhill from there. I like this team, trust me. We all do.

And yet ... The specter of the last four years of NCAA tournaments still looms. I know I need not detail it for as thorough a fan as you, but it bears typing as these things weigh on a reasonable mind:

Last year, as a two seed, we barely avoided a monumental collapse to Belmont and lost in rather predictable fashion on the first weekend to another inferior team. Two years ago we lost to VCU the first game. Three years ago, as a one seed featuring the ACC's all-time leading scorer, we had one of the worst performances we've all seen out of a Duke team in a long time against one of the worst Final Four teams of all time in the Sweet 16. The year prior, we also failed to make it past the Sweet 16 as a one seed. I think it's not disparaging to the team or program to point to these things as reasons for post-season confidence being a bit brittle amongst part of the fan base.

So, despite my hearty endorsement of the current squad and its players and my respect for the fun season they've provided so far, I'll be taking an "I'll believe it when I see it" approach as to our prospects of advancing past the first weekend, for now. Which, actually, should make any success more appreciated. Many people overextended their expectations after the incredible level of '98-'04 success, although I wasn't one of them. I'd rather err on the other end, by not getting my hopes up without a recent success (5 years ago is now an eternity in college hoops) on which to hang them.

I'll start to get excited about the possibilities for Duke in the NCAA's when we make it back to the regional finals. Which could very well happen this year. I think we're in good position to give a 14 seed no breathing room. I think we're in good position to outgun a 6 seed in the second round, or prevail if it's a nailbiter. Which puts us likely in a 50/50 matchup with someone like Michigan State or Louisville in the Sweet 16. I'd certainly like our chances, and anything could happen beyond that point. And yet...

I guess I'm just offering a defense of those of us who are a bit more glass half empty at the moment (although I suppose we're not really being attacked). It's not that we're not enjoying the ride and each game for what it is, or that we're expecting the world. As a fan, you tend to look ahead despite taking in the view from where you are. I saw all the positive things you saw in the game yesterday, too, but I think it's alright to express that it's still very painful to see us lose to Carolina six out of the last eight times or whatever it is, despite great efforts and keeping it close more often than not. In some respects, it's especially hard this year, when twice in a row now our squad, god love 'em, have come pretty close to maxing out their potential but still fallen clearly short of Carolina. The pendulum has swung, they're simply better than us. Despite my feeling we'll get some measure of revenge next year, it's still tough to swallow.

chi
03-09-2009, 03:52 PM
I am a long-time reader, but this is my first post to DBR. As the username makes clear, Iím a Tarheel fan and hope to convince you that Wheat is not the only reasonable one out there. Iíve long been impressed with this board. The discussion- both in terms of its civility and substance- reflects well on Duke fans and Iím envious that UNC has nothing that approaches it.

Just a quick comment on yesterdayís game- it basically played out as it should have. There have been a lot of ďwhat ifĒ comments in this thread, but if you look at opponents shooting percentage the game went according to script. Since the last UNC-Duke meeting, Dukeís six opponents have averaged 52.4% from the field and UNCís five opponents have shot 44.7%. Yesterday, UNC shot 52.8% and Duke shot 44%. Obviously, Duke can take a lot of positives out of the game and it is clear that Duke is a better team than they were in the first meeting, but that FG percentage should be cause for considerable concern. We agonize about our defensive lapses, but Iíll take our numbers over yours in a heartbeat.

Welcome CH. thanks for the kind words, post and analysis. I used to post slightly more often way back ... I posted a couple these past few weeks. but have been spending way too much time reading the posts and articles. I am cutting it down ... Let's see if I a successful :)

Anyway, congrats on a good win.

CLT Devil
03-09-2009, 04:31 PM
I have read through about half of the posts here and I just have to address the folks who have opined that 'we got outrebounded' or something to that effect.

I am wondering if we watched the same game.

After every shot we took our guys immediately started to get back on defense in order to cut off the possability of fast breaks. That succeeded as Carolina only a couple the whole game. Giving up those rebounds was a deliberate tactical decision by K. Our players did not 'get outrebounded' at all. OK there were a couple of times I noticed Lance failing to box out Lawson, but I chalked that up to his bad wheel. If he is 100% the next time we play I feel very good about our chances.

Couldn't agree with you more. My dad kept asking why we weren't crashing the boards more, as they were always 4 UNC players near the basket and rarely a Duke player. I think it actually worked well, and the rebound stat is very misleading. The pace of the game favored us, at least most of the time. It's too easy for Lawson to get an outlet pass and score an easy two; make them run their half court offense against our D.

Ultimately we missed a few crucial open shots down the stretch and had a bad break with Kyle being out of bounds and Ty coming back with a 3 point play. They made more plays than we did...too bad to be so close in this one, but UNC is the best team in the country talent-wise...coaching I might beg to differ.

This UNC team that was billed preseason as one of the potential best ever is a Ty Lawson deperation buzzer beater away from having to win that game yesterday just to tie us. Does anyone else think with that much talent it shouldn't have come down to the last game for them? Trust me, I know it's the ACC and anything can happen, but I feel like UNC should have won more dominantly through the year than they did. I dunno......

feldspar
03-09-2009, 04:44 PM
This UNC team that was billed preseason as one of the potential best ever is a Ty Lawson deperation buzzer beater away from having to win that game yesterday just to tie us. Does anyone else think with that much talent it shouldn't have come down to the last game for them? Trust me, I know it's the ACC and anything can happen, but I feel like UNC should have won more dominantly through the year than they did. I dunno......



Your assessment assumes buy-in to all of the pre-season media and message board chatter hype. I didn’t buy much of it, and I don’t think Roy Williams did, either.

With the strength of the ACC this year, 13-3 is an incredibly impressive record. For that matter, I find Duke’s 11-5 record to be pretty darn impressive. I would equate those two records to around 15-1 and 13-3 respectively in your average ACC year.

This UNC team had a lot of holes (no pun intended) last year, and it still has many of those same holes this year, plus there was talk of some early ACC season chemistry problems that Roy seemed to iron out as the season went along.

So, no, I don’t think it’s fair to characterize this year’s UNC team as underachieving, all things considered.

Philadukie
03-09-2009, 05:45 PM
I am a long-time reader, but this is my first post to DBR. As the username makes clear, Iím a Tarheel fan and hope to convince you that Wheat is not the only reasonable one out there. Iíve long been impressed with this board. The discussion- both in terms of its civility and substance- reflects well on Duke fans and Iím envious that UNC has nothing that approaches it.

Just a quick comment on yesterdayís game- it basically played out as it should have. There have been a lot of ďwhat ifĒ comments in this thread, but if you look at opponents shooting percentage the game went according to script. Since the last UNC-Duke meeting, Dukeís six opponents have averaged 52.4% from the field and UNCís five opponents have shot 44.7%. Yesterday, UNC shot 52.8% and Duke shot 44%. Obviously, Duke can take a lot of positives out of the game and it is clear that Duke is a better team than they were in the first meeting, but that FG percentage should be cause for considerable concern. We agonize about our defensive lapses, but Iíll take our numbers over yours in a heartbeat.

This is a great point. I vaguely thought the same thing but didn't have time to look at the numbers. The "only if" argument loosely implies that "had we only made just a few more shots that we typically would make, we would have won this game." Our shooting was pretty much in line with our recent percentages.

We played a good game and about to the level I would expect for this team against Carolina on their home court. Carolina is just a better team, with more horses (particularly down low) and better complimentary pieces.

I will definitely be glad to see most of those complimentary pieces gone after this year. They've had a remarkably good run against us: Hansbrough, Green, and Frasor (6-2); Lawson and Ellington (5-1).

As others have said, simply take Hansbrough out of the equation, and this team over the last couple of years would not have been as dominant. Without him next year, they will fall back to earth and be commensurably good with Duke. In fact, Duke might be better and win both games next year.

Hansbrough is one of those rare players (like JJ) that come along only so often. A player who just absolutely dominates the college game but doesn't quite have the physical gifts to easily jump to the NBA. As such, they get stuck in this purgatory (if you will) of being a four year player who leads their team to consistent success over their tenure with National POY numbers. Most players as dominant as Hansbrough has been would've left no later than their sophomore year.

Anyhow, it was a good game that suggests that we can make a run in the tournament, although I won't be shocked again if we don't. I think I wrote before that we can beat anyone in the top 15, and anyone in the top 15 can beat us. I think that generally still holds true; although, what worries me every year is not that top 15 team, but the unheralded team looking for a major program scalp. But I think there's reason to believe this year that we can hold those teams off.

Greg_Newton
03-09-2009, 06:01 PM
I have been a little perplexed as to why opponents seem to keep shooting phenomenally high FG%s against us. Sure, a little part of it is probably our switch happy, take away the 3 strategy, a little part of it is probably the fact the we have no imposing presence inside to challenge interior shots, but a lot of it just seems to be teams playing extremely well against us and making spectacular plays.

To the casual observer we seem to play good defense, so I'm not sure why it keeps happening over and over. Getting extra hyped up because it's Duke can only explain so much...

zingit
03-09-2009, 06:17 PM
I have also been a little perplexed as to why opponents seem to keep shooting phenomenally high FG%s against us. Sure, a little part of it is probably our switch happy, take away the 3 strategy, a little part of it is probably the fact the we have no imposing presence inside to challenge interior shots, but a lot of it just seems to be teams playing extremely well against us and making spectacular plays.

To the casual observer we seem to play good defense, so I'm not sure why it keeps happening over and over. Getting extra hyped up because it's Duke can only explain so much...

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. I was thinking about Hansbrough's two three-pointers, and wondered about how often he does that. Well, I looked up his profile (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=27018), and it turns out he has only made 12 3-pointers in his college career, and FOUR of them have come against us (2 in this game, one in the first game this year, and one in his freshman year game at Cameron). So a full THIRD of this guy's made 3-pt shots have come against Duke. Ugh. Not that that's why they've beaten us, but still, that just stinks for us. Somehow players often seem to just be "on" when they play us. Go figure.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-09-2009, 06:38 PM
...we have no imposing presence inside to challenge interior shots...

Bingo.
Teams are shooting it close to the basket and therefore %'s are higher.

calltheobvious
03-09-2009, 07:02 PM
Bingo.
Teams are shooting it close to the basket and therefore %'s are higher.

That's right. And I know I mentioned it earlier, but I think it bears repeating: while Duke's deffg% wasn't significantly different yesterday wrt the last three weeks, the quality of the average shot given up was significantly lower. If we'd forced SJU, WF, VT, and FSU to take the shots UNC did yesterday, the season numbers would be improved by a percentage point or three. And the marks AE (after Elliott) would be proportionally better still.

Of course it would be easy to call 'outlier' and dismiss this, but I think that the more likely explanation is that Duke is getting better at playing team-defense with EW on the floor. Further, to force that many tough shots against a team with as many weapons as Carolina should only reinforce the idea that the new line-up is starting to improve defensively.

To top it all off, McClure played very, very limited minutes yesterday, I believe mostly because K wanted as powerful an offensive line-up on the floor as he could muster without completely gifting UNC any further offensive advantage. If Duke's offense continues to hum with the efficiency it has shown recently, then against all but the absolute best, McClure's going to play several more minutes per game than he did yesterday, and that will indeed improve Duke's defensive efficiency.

The more I think about where things are going, the more excited I get.

shoutingncu
03-09-2009, 07:32 PM
Slightly off-topic:

I'm surprised that this has only come up once in this thread, but Coach K seems to have lit into one of the officials. CBS replayed the exchange after the time-out and Sportscenter highlighted it. This is not the first time that Coach K and the officials have gotten some face time during a telecast.

What if it had been Gary Williams going head-to-head with a ref? Granted, no ref would get that close for fear of drowning, but how would that go over? Or Bobby Knight?

And this falls into the "getting all the calls" argument. Now of course, any reasonable fan (I know, hard to come by) knows that Duke does not, in fact, get all the calls. But part of the ABD'ers problem is not only with the perceived discrepancy, but also with Coach K's alleged abuse / bullying of refs.

What seems like two, three times a game, after a foul goes against Duke, I find myself yelling at the TV, "Coach your f'ing team."

Am I just seeing this through my shade of blue?

If it were Roy staring down an official like that, would I be saying, "Go get 'im, Roy. Way to stick up for our boys." I'd like to think I'd be even handed, or at the very least, saying, "Go get 'im, Roy, now coach your f'ing team."

I just wondered what the other shade of blue thought of the exchange.

BlueintheFace
03-09-2009, 08:06 PM
Slightly off-topic:

I'm surprised that this has only come up once in this thread, but Coach K seems to have lit into one of the officials. CBS replayed the exchange after the time-out and Sportscenter highlighted it. This is not the first time that Coach K and the officials have gotten some face time during a telecast.

What if it had been Gary Williams going head-to-head with a ref? Granted, no ref would get that close for fear of drowning, but how would that go over? Or Bobby Knight?

And this falls into the "getting all the calls" argument. Now of course, any reasonable fan (I know, hard to come by) knows that Duke does not, in fact, get all the calls. But part of the ABD'ers problem is not only with the perceived discrepancy, but also with Coach K's alleged abuse / bullying of refs.

What seems like two, three times a game, after a foul goes against Duke, I find myself yelling at the TV, "Coach your f'ing team."

Am I just seeing this through my shade of blue?

If it were Roy staring down an official like that, would I be saying, "Go get 'im, Roy. Way to stick up for our boys." I'd like to think I'd be even handed, or at the very least, saying, "Go get 'im, Roy, now coach your f'ing team."

I just wondered what the other shade of blue thought of the exchange.

Coaching a team during a game is not always X's and O's. It's about giving your team the best chance to win in whatever ways are legally possible.

This list is not exhaustive, but

1) You have to motivate
2) You have to adjust your team during the run of play
3) You have to draw up plays sometimes
4) You have to call timeouts (Hi Roy)
5) You have to manage your team with regard to time towards the end
6) You have to call out plays sometimes
7) and yes.... you definitely have to work the ref (ask Knight, Pitino, and other greats)

The degree to which K does 2-6 depends on how experienced his team is. 2 years ago he spent an awful lot more time doing 2-6 and an awful lot less time doing 7 because when you have to manage your team during the run of play, you don't have time to complain as much right after fouls. You have to send in another play and instruct.

This year, however, Duke is more experienced and K calls out plays, adjusts defense, etc... a lot less during the run of play and after fouls. So, he has more time to work the refs.

IMO, the same was true of Roy 2 years ago. He spent a lot more time up instructing and coaching during the run of plays. This year he is often sitting down quietly and watching.

The real question is, how do you want your coach to allocate the extra time that comes with a more experienced team. Do you want your coach lobbying the refs as much as possible to help the team in any little way, or do you see such actions as "dirty" and "unsportsmanlike?" Frankly, I want every advantage possible within the rules of the game. I prefer that K lobby when he doesn't need to coach instead of observe. That is just me.

HOWEVER, the most important thing to point to is this. The broadcasts just show K arguing more with the refs than other teams because he is one of just a handful of coaches in the NCAA with the status worthy of network attention. Do you really think he complains to refs more frequently than Seth Greenburg... more than LEITAO!!!? Most certainly not, but the television broadcasts don't reflect that because the viewership is watching Duke and not the opposition (out of both loyalty and hatred). Duke and K are almost always the story... not the opposing coaches.

Gooch
03-09-2009, 08:20 PM
Reading post game around the web, I see people talking about how well UNC played. They played like crap in my mind. That's not to take anything away from Duke, but there is just no leader on the floor for UNC that mentally takes control of the game...

...Just consider if the players on UNC, with all their talent, played with the mental toughness that Duke has displayed late this season?


I agree with you 100%, Wheat. I'm most proud of how Duke has gotten tougher as the season has progressed and has come together as a team. I don't see that toughness or team spirit with the Heels. Lots of talent, but collectively they seem to be on cruise control.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-09-2009, 09:58 PM
I agree with you 100%, Wheat. I'm most proud of how Duke has gotten tougher as the season has progressed and has come together as a team. I don't see that toughness or team spirit with the Heels. Lots of talent, but collectively they seem to be on cruise control.

I think UNC is tough, and plays hard most of the time. And I think they are even spirited and emotional, in a contained sort of way.
And you're right, there have been some going on cruise control minutes this season that has frustrated me.

My standards are high.

I just don't think they play smart, heady, savvy... whatever we could call it basketball. And they could be so much better if they improved there just a little bit. I see them as a mentally "plodding" team with "explosive" talent, if that makes sense.
There is no one I'd consider a high Basketball I.Q. player, with the exception of Frasor, on the team.

They seem way to willing to accept mistakes and push on, and in their defense, since they push so hard all the time, it could be by coaches design for all I know.

Then again, it may be as simple as the fact that no-one on the team seems to really "see the floor" as well as you would expect, or I would hope. They are not lost out there, but where is the "extra" vision in a Heel player that the best teams of the past have had in at least one position?

When was the last time we saw a no look pass from a Heel, for example? Which player could we describe as being blessed with "court awareness"?

There are a lot of physically talented players that really don't see the floor well in a game. Or really grasp the flow and speed of a play very well, for that matter.

There are some less talented players that do see the floor, understand the flow, and play smart, like Scheyer.

And some talented players that see the floor, get in the flow, but often play dumb, like Grievous.

Then there's this year's Heels.

CLT Devil
03-10-2009, 07:59 AM
As far as Bball IQ I think Danny Green has the most...as much as I hate to admit. He's always in the right place to make a block, get an open shot, put back a board.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-10-2009, 07:44 PM
As far as Bball IQ I think Danny Green has the most...as much as I hate to admit. He's always in the right place to make a block, get an open shot, put back a board.

Besides all the bad shots he took in the Duke game, his worst moment came with UNC up 5, (I think) around 4 minutes to play and he makes the very nice defensive block on the layup, then turns around and tries to make a full court telegraphed bounce pass that was easily picked off. That was over the top at that moment in a tight ACC title game against a bitter rival.

To me, Frasor is the only Heel who really thinks instead of reacting.

tendev
03-10-2009, 08:38 PM
I have read through about half of the posts here and I just have to address the folks who have opined that 'we got outrebounded' or something to that effect.

I am wondering if we watched the same game.

After every shot we took our guys immediately started to get back on defense in order to cut off the possability of fast breaks. That succeeded as Carolina only a couple the whole game. Giving up those rebounds was a deliberate tactical decision by K. Our players did not 'get outrebounded' at all. OK there were a couple of times I noticed Lance failing to box out Lawson, but I chalked that up to his bad wheel. If he is 100% the next time we play I feel very good about our chances.

A tactical decision not to rebound on the defensive end? Huh? If my memory serves, Carolina got 6 more offensive rebounds than we did. That is 6 more chances to score than we got. They shot shot about 53%. 53% x 6 = 3.18 additional baskets scored. Assuming those were 2 pointers that is 6 points. They won by 8. Rebounding made a big difference in this game.

ice-9
03-11-2009, 12:09 AM
Exactly. And, if you want to really drive home the point, it is the difference between McRoberts and Hans. Imagine if those players swapped teams. Heck, imagine if McRoberts was here for 4 years and was manning the post right now. Things would be a lot different.

That is a very, very good point!

ice-9
03-11-2009, 12:19 AM
He was 4 of 11 from the field while getting atleast 2 open dunks (1 of those he may have created for himself). He also had 5 of our 11 turnovers. Defenses are going to key on Henderson, he has to do a better job of dealing with it or we will not go very far. At the very least he has to limit his turnovers. He did have a few nice dishes though (particularly the one to Lance). It just seemed like Gerald was off a little bit. He didn't have a bad game, but he didn't have a good game either. Bottom line is we need more from him, especially if we are going to beat a team like UNC.

I agree Henderson's shooting percentage could've been better. But there were a few drives where he went strong to the basket against a hacking UNC defense and lost the ball. (I kept screaming: "How was that not a foul??") I think that explains the low percentage and high turnovers somewhat.

bjornolf
03-11-2009, 07:10 AM
A tactical decision not to rebound on the defensive end? Huh? If my memory serves, Carolina got 6 more offensive rebounds than we did. That is 6 more chances to score than we got. They shot shot about 53%. 53% x 6 = 3.18 additional baskets scored. Assuming those were 2 pointers that is 6 points. They won by 8. Rebounding made a big difference in this game.

I believe the poster was referring to a tactical decision not to rebound on the OFFENSIVE end. If you're trying to slow Carolina's breaks, it wouldn't make much sense to not rebound on the DEFENSIVE end.

mlk
03-11-2009, 07:26 AM
Rebounds were big. Do you think that having the teams leading rebounder in foul trouble the 2nd half had anything to do with that 2 charges called on Singeler which should have been blocking on ..................?