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kinghoops
03-06-2009, 06:25 PM
wral tv just reported that lawson was seen leaving practice on crutches. anyone else have any info??

FireOgilvie
03-06-2009, 06:27 PM
That would really cheapen our win against them on Sunday...

FerryFor50
03-06-2009, 06:29 PM
That would really cheapen our win against them on Sunday...

No win against UNC is cheap. :D

besides, last I checked, we were down 2 pretty solid guys.

kinghoops
03-06-2009, 06:29 PM
That would really cheapen our win against them on Sunday...

it can cheapen the one on saturday.. but i will take it on sunday!!

SilkyJ
03-06-2009, 06:32 PM
just some ol' roy trickery, dag gummit.

FireOgilvie
03-06-2009, 06:33 PM
No win against UNC is cheap. :D

besides, last I checked, we were down 2 pretty solid guys.

True, but I don't want UNC to have an excuse.

kinghoops
03-06-2009, 06:34 PM
just some ol' roy trickery, dag gummit.

i was wondering the same thing.. do you think ole roy would stoop that low?

BlueintheFace
03-06-2009, 06:34 PM
If it is true, that might even the game up with all of Duke's injuries...

SilkyJ
03-06-2009, 06:38 PM
i was wondering the same thing.. do you think ole roy would stoop that low?

I was definitely half joking, but to answer your question: yes and no. Do I think roy would put him on crutches if he was 100% healthy just to screw with us, no. But if Tywon tweaked his ankle, but really was fine (I'm thinking a la Scheyer vs FSU where he clearly did something but was also well enough to go back in 5 mins later), do I think roy would use it as an excuse to overplay an injury a day or two before the big game, yes.

wisteria
03-06-2009, 06:44 PM
I was definitely half joking, but to answer your question: yes and no. Do I think roy would put him on crutches if he was 100% healthy just to screw with us, no. But if Tywon tweaked his ankle, but really was fine (I'm thinking a la Scheyer vs FSU where he clearly did something but was also well enough to go back in 5 mins later), do I think roy would use it as an excuse to overplay an injury a day or two before the big game, yes.

yep, completely agree. It won't be first time that Roy plays up a minor injury.

dukegirlinsc
03-06-2009, 06:47 PM
I've been researching and I can't find anything to confirm or deny this allegation. Help is wanted.

shadowfax336
03-06-2009, 06:55 PM
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/colleges/blogpost/4687437/

shadowfax336
03-06-2009, 06:56 PM
apparently stubbing your toe is enough justification for crutches at UNC...

wisteria
03-06-2009, 06:59 PM
I've been researching and I can't find anything to confirm or deny this allegation. Help is wanted.

You mean the overplay minor injury thing?

If you check back the beginning of the season, how every toe injury of any UNC player makes national headline, you'll see why I'm not surprised.

dukegirlinsc
03-06-2009, 07:03 PM
apparently stubbing your toe is enough justification for crutches at UNC...

To be expected.:rolleyes:

BlueintheFace
03-06-2009, 07:05 PM
Stubbed Toe... hahahahha

mgtr
03-06-2009, 07:08 PM
Next thing is, a UNC player will turn up with an ingrown toenail. Then they will probably have press conference about it. Or at least something on Sports Center! :D

wisteria
03-06-2009, 07:10 PM
Next thing is, a UNC player will turn up with an ingrown toenail. Then they will probably have press conference about it. Or at least something on Sports Center! :D

toenail~ yes! that's what i remembered from the beginning of the season, that actually made ESPN headline.

bjornolf
03-06-2009, 07:10 PM
Eh, he probably just caught a nasty case of athlete's foot from Hansbrough in the locker room. :eek:

dukefanSD
03-06-2009, 07:20 PM
Toenail fungus from a bad pedicure?:D

Indoor66
03-06-2009, 08:22 PM
Maybe Duke was getting too much ink on the injury issue and Roy wanted to counter?

DukePA
03-06-2009, 09:40 PM
Toenail fungus from a bad pedicure?:D

ding, ding, ding!!! You nailed it :D !!!!

-bdbd
03-07-2009, 02:15 AM
apparently stubbing your toe is enough justification for crutches at UNC...

Heck, in the Dean Dome that's enough justification to hang another banner...



-BDBD :cool::p:D

Newton_14
03-07-2009, 03:23 PM
CBS is reporting that Lawson was unable to practice today and is listed as "questionable" for tomorrow's game.

Take it for what it's worth...

Gerald Henderson is coming to Chapel Hill, and Hell is coming with him!

Go Duke!

devildeac
03-07-2009, 03:36 PM
CBS is reporting that Lawson was unable to practice today and is listed as "questionable" for tomorrow's game.

Take it for what it's worth...

Gerald Henderson is coming to Chapel Hill, and Hell is coming with him!

Go Duke!

Maybe unc EMS/Life Flight can deliver him to the game just after Lance shows up in his total body cast (see my tongue-in-cheek description in another thread) and we can have a most dramatic entrance/recovery award. I'll side with the good guys here:D. Go Devils!

Indoor66
03-07-2009, 03:45 PM
Maybe unc EMS/Life Flight can deliver him to the game just after Lance shows up in his total body cast (see my tongue-in-cheek description in another thread) and we can have a most dramatic entrance/recovery award. I'll side with the good guys here:D. Go Devils!

But the shrillness of the saws cutting the casts will hurt the sensitive ears in the Nose Dome and the dust will defile the thousands of banners hanging from every available inch of the ceiling. :eek:

Hancock 4 Duke
03-07-2009, 04:11 PM
He just stubbed his toe in practice. He's expected to play Sunday.

Stray Gator
03-07-2009, 04:37 PM
I learned long ago never to trust an injury report from the UNC basketball program before a game against Duke. Those of us who have been around a while joke about UNC players who are reported to have injuries being "sprinkled with Dean's Magic Healing Dust" just before they suit up for the game.

Devil in the Blue Dress
03-07-2009, 04:39 PM
He just stubbed his toe in practice. He's expected to play Sunday.

Here's a link to the News & Observer report. Lawson missed practice. There is no status report.
http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/no-status-on-lawson

BD80
03-07-2009, 05:02 PM
Here's a link to the News & Observer report. Lawson missed practice. There is no status report.
http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/no-status-on-lawson

Under Duke standards, Lawson wouldn't play. No drama, no excuses. He can't practice, he doesn't play.

Under carowhina standards, you hold the kid out of practice to build drama and to create an excuse, but provide no real information so the local press is not compelled to reveal any facts. Then you say what a warrior the kid is to play through his injury.


I learned long ago never to trust an injury report from the UNC basketball program before a game against Duke. Those of us who have been around a while joke about UNC players who are reported to have injuries being "sprinkled with Dean's Magic Healing Dust" just before they suit up for the game.

What was the little dust up last year when Coach K mentioned something like "we don't report every little injury," and the implication (or roy's inference) caused roy to snipe that Duke should worry about its own players? I don't remember the details (and probably screwed up the little bit I think I remember).

kinghoops
03-07-2009, 05:47 PM
g-man just reported during the texas-kansas telecast that lawson is a gametime decision

Duvall
03-07-2009, 05:52 PM
g-man just reported during the texas-kansas telecast that lawson is a gametime decision

http://www.mrtarheel.com/images/deanicon.jpg

...approves of these machinations.

jpfrizzle
03-07-2009, 08:02 PM
"Gerald Henderson is coming to Chapel Hill, and Hell is coming with him! Go Duke!"


the best quote for Sunday's game

Highlander
03-07-2009, 09:43 PM
What was the little dust up last year when Coach K mentioned something like "we don't report every little injury," and the implication (or roy's inference) caused roy to snipe that Duke should worry about its own players? I don't remember the details (and probably screwed up the little bit I think I remember).

K said something like 'We don't report every injury. At this point in the season, everyone is banged up.'

The controversy arose when someone (I think it was a RDU sports talk show guy) passed along the quote by adding a "Unlike some schools, we don't report every injury." The previous week Roy had said such-and-such has an ingrown toenail, and so-and-so is sick, so Roy got indignant about it and let spew a bunch of nasty comebacks on his radio show about K minding his own business. It wasn't until later that it became clear that K had been misquoted.

The best part was K's response to Roy's outburst. He said, and I quote, "No Comment."

billy
03-07-2009, 10:47 PM
It was the 620 the Bull, 850 the Buzz guys (who posted/reported the erroneous quote (which did not match the audiotape) that got ol' Roy fired up. Here's the link:
http://www.850thebuzz.com/blog/?p=4041

For added humor, here's the Tar Heel pedicure article link from last year:
http://www.newsobserver.com/front/story/547177.html

jipops
03-07-2009, 11:33 PM
Local nbc affiliate in Raleigh just reported Lawson's injury as turf toe, which can actually be quite painful. This is beyond concerns of the Duke game for UNC.

zingit
03-08-2009, 12:22 AM
Local nbc affiliate in Raleigh just reported Lawson's injury as turf toe, which can actually be quite painful. This is beyond concerns of the Duke game for UNC.

Whoa, really? I had to look up what turf toe is; here is a link (http://orthopedics.about.com/od/toeproblems/p/turftoe.htm). Key quote:


Athletes diagnosed with turf toe should avoid their sport at least three weeks to allow the joint capsule to heal. Without doing so, the injury can progress, and can lead to an even longer recuperation. It is not uncommon for athletes to try to come back too soon, or to try to play through the injury. Unfortunately, this usually leads to a more chronic injury, and ultimately a longer recovery.

That would really suck for him if he had to be out for 3 weeks. Hold on, I'm experiencing some cognitive dissonance here. I might actually feel bad for him!

wisteria
03-08-2009, 12:49 AM
words from chapel hill is that he's fine. WRAL perhaps is trying to squeeze some stories out of it/boosting some interest...

Only things confirmed:
1) hurt his toe
2) x ray negative
3) didn't practice on Saturday
4) at most, speculative, "like" turf toe

Perhpas I'm just cynical. But...I've seen this before.

roywhite
03-08-2009, 01:01 AM
Turf toe? Not a small thing...

Pittsburgh Steelers HOF Linebacker Jack Lambert, an all-time tough guy, had his career ended by toe problems.

I guess we'll see about Mr. Lawson soon enough.

wisteria
03-08-2009, 01:20 AM
the "turf toe" quote:

UNC spokesman Steve Kirschner, asked Saturday night if the injury could last into the ACC Tournament and beyond, said, "I would say it could be. You just don't know with this type of injury. It's like turf toe."

bjornolf
03-08-2009, 09:04 AM
Turf toe can encompass a lot of things. Severe turf toe is very painful and debilitating. But just like a sprained ankle, there are several different levels of it. Not to mention you have ten toes, and it's worse on some toes than others in terms of pain and ability to play (pinky toe and big toe are generally the worst). Most pro football players suffer from turf toe at some point during a season. Very few make the news and lead to missed games.

captmojo
03-08-2009, 10:02 AM
I subscribe, and bow very deeply BTW, to the excellent analogy offered on today's front page. The comparison of James Brown's on/off stage stuff is genius. ;)

devildeac
03-08-2009, 11:39 AM
I believe Grant Hill had this injury in 1993 or so, missed some games perhaps, and was limited upon his return for a while. I remember Rodney Rogers lighting him/us up in CIS I believe 'cuz Grant lacked the mobility to defend him. Some one else help me here please.

DukeCO2009
03-08-2009, 11:50 AM
I have a friend who's a manager for chapel hill and says that Lawson is a definite go this afternoon. Roy is just posturing.

Stray Gator
03-08-2009, 12:30 PM
Note that Kirshner did not say Lawson had suffered a "turf toe" injury--only that it's "like turf toe." In "Deanspeak," that's equivalent to saying that a player who went to the dentist this week for a filling is "recovering from reconstructive surgery." This is a customary practice of long standing in Chapel Hill prior to games against Duke, and I'm confident that these reports of Lawson's injury are being treated with appropriate skepticism by the Duke coaches and players.

moonpie23
03-08-2009, 12:33 PM
Which toe was it ? I mean. In case someone stomps on his toe.

Just sayin'.

captmojo
03-08-2009, 12:36 PM
Hey....hit'em all! :eek:

devildeac
03-08-2009, 12:41 PM
Note that Kirshner did not say Lawson had suffered a "turf toe" injury--only that it's "like turf toe." In "Deanspeak," that's equivalent to saying that a player who went to the dentist this week for a filling is "recovering from reconstructive surgery." This is a customary practice of long standing in Chapel Hill prior to games against Duke, and I'm confident that these reports of Lawson's injury are being treated with appropriate skepticism by the Duke coaches and players.

I knew I wasn't the only one who doubted the tarheelian injury reports of life-threatening proportions:rolleyes:.

rsvman
03-08-2009, 01:05 PM
I'm with StrayGator.

He'll play, and he'll play well. If they lose, they'll blame it on his "injury" even though he played at 99% and was held to below his season average because of excellent defense by a FRESHMAN.

jipops
03-08-2009, 01:59 PM
I believe Grant Hill had this injury in 1993 or so, missed some games perhaps, and was limited upon his return for a while. I remember Rodney Rogers lighting him/us up in CIS I believe 'cuz Grant lacked the mobility to defend him. Some one else help me here please.

I was at this game. Grant hurt his foot/toe early on and was keeping Rodney relatively in check. Once Grant was out Rodney went off, both Rodney's talent and Grant's absence being a huge factor. Grant was never quite the same that season when he came back. Lamond Murray lit us up for Cal in the ncaaT.

devildeac
03-08-2009, 02:07 PM
I was at this game. Grant hurt his foot/toe early on and was keeping Rodney relatively in check. Once Grant was out Rodney went off, both Rodney's talent and Grant's absence being a huge factor. Grant was never quite the same that season when he came back. Lamond Murray lit us up for Cal in the ncaaT.

As did some guy named Kidd, IIRC.

Thanks.

RoyalBlue08
03-08-2009, 03:20 PM
Lawson went through shoot around without any sign of injury. He's fine. As was stated above, I believe Roy is just trying to play mind games.

Stray Gator
03-08-2009, 03:43 PM
Lawson went through shoot around without any sign of injury. He's fine. As was stated above, I believe Roy is just trying to play mind games.

Roy is not playing mind games--he knows the Duke coaches and players are not so stupid as to fall for that weak and worn-out attempt at Dean-like deception. He's just setting up what will serve as either an anticipatory excuse or a cause for exaggerating the heroic efforts of his noble warriors. :rolleyes:

captmojo
03-08-2009, 03:47 PM
Roy is not playing mind games--he knows the Duke coaches and players are not so stupid as to fall for that weak and worn-out attempt at Dean-like deception. He's just setting up what will serve as either an anticipatory excuse or a cause for exaggerating the heroic efforts of his noble warriors. :rolleyes:

How noble!

diveonthefloor
03-08-2009, 03:55 PM
I can't believe CBS fell for the "Lawson is questionable" line when they did they're pre-game "look in." Dang they're gullable.

roywhite
03-08-2009, 11:31 PM
Roy is not playing mind games--he knows the Duke coaches and players are not so stupid as to fall for that weak and worn-out attempt at Dean-like deception. He's just setting up what will serve as either an anticipatory excuse or a cause for exaggerating the heroic efforts of his noble warriors. :rolleyes:

Well stated. Why, it's as if you've seen this play out before. :)

Biscuit
03-09-2009, 09:27 AM
Well stated. Why, it's as if you've seen this play out before. :)

The Associated Press story on the game reported that Lawson got a shot to numb the pain in his toe before the game. He was hurt. That is a fact.

Look, your team put up a great fight yesterday. An 8 point loss to this UNC team in Chapel Hill is nothing to be ashamed about, and Duke and its fans can hold their heads high this morning and consider their team a legitimate final four contender. As a UNC fan, I can tell you that it would be my worst nightmare to face this Duke team in Detroit.

However, DBR and the posters here are doing themselves a huge disservice by suggesting that Lawson was not hurt and that it's part of some elaborate ruse. It is-- and I'll choose my word carefully here-- unbecoming.

I remember the same stuff from this site last year before the Duke-UNC game when Lawson got injured and his status was uncertain. He's faking, ole Roy's just playing up the drama so his player will look like a hero, he'll play for sure, he's pulling the old "James Brown" routine. Lawson missed the game ... and the next month.

Athletes get hurt all the time. Sometimes they can play through it, sometimes they can't. UNC basketball is just like every other team in this respect, including Duke Basketball.

roywhite
03-09-2009, 09:35 AM
The Associated Press story on the game reported that Lawson got a shot to numb the pain in his toe before the game. He was hurt. That is a fact.

Look, your team put up a great fight yesterday. An 8 point loss to this UNC team in Chapel Hill is nothing to be ashamed about, and Duke and its fans can hold their heads high this morning and consider their team a legitimate final four contender. As a UNC fan, I can tell you that it would be my worst nightmare to face this Duke team in Detroit.

However, DBR and the posters here are doing themselves a huge disservice by suggesting that Lawson was not hurt and that it's part of some elaborate ruse. It is-- and I'll choose my word carefully here-- unbecoming.

I remember the same stuff from this site last year before the Duke-UNC game when Lawson got injured and his status was uncertain. He's faking, ole Roy's just playing up the drama so his player will look like a hero, he'll play for sure, he's pulling the old "James Brown" routine. Lawson missed the game ... and the next month.

Athletes get hurt all the time. Sometimes they can play through it, sometimes they can't. UNC basketball is just like every other team in this respect, including Duke Basketball.

So you want your victory and your injury story too?

Condescending nonsense.

I hope you'll celebrate elsewhere.

bjornolf
03-09-2009, 09:39 AM
I have to agree there. I didn't know about the shot though.

I definitely thought that his cuts weren't quite as sharp and his 5th gear wasn't QUITE as fast as it usually is, which is probably part of the reason our team defense was able to contain him a little. I didn't think it was bothering him too much since he didn't seem to have a slight limp during dead balls (which a lot of players get when they don't have the in-game adrenaline flowing), but the shot would certainly explain that. He did seem to take a pretty long break in the first half (maybe that's his norm, I don't know).

Biscuit
03-09-2009, 09:42 AM
So you want your victory and your injury story too?

Condescending nonsense.

I hope you'll celebrate elsewhere.

AP's story, not mine.

Fair enough, though. I didn't think I was celebrating, but I know how much "the day after" can hurt. I'll take my leave until Wednesday.

Stray Gator
03-09-2009, 12:45 PM
The Associated Press story on the game reported that Lawson got a shot to numb the pain in his toe before the game. He was hurt. That is a fact.

Look, your team put up a great fight yesterday. An 8 point loss to this UNC team in Chapel Hill is nothing to be ashamed about, and Duke and its fans can hold their heads high this morning and consider their team a legitimate final four contender. As a UNC fan, I can tell you that it would be my worst nightmare to face this Duke team in Detroit.

However, DBR and the posters here are doing themselves a huge disservice by suggesting that Lawson was not hurt and that it's part of some elaborate ruse. It is-- and I'll choose my word carefully here-- unbecoming.

I remember the same stuff from this site last year before the Duke-UNC game when Lawson got injured and his status was uncertain. He's faking, ole Roy's just playing up the drama so his player will look like a hero, he'll play for sure, he's pulling the old "James Brown" routine. Lawson missed the game ... and the next month.

Athletes get hurt all the time. Sometimes they can play through it, sometimes they can't. UNC basketball is just like every other team in this respect, including Duke Basketball.

Biscuit,

First of all, congrats to you and your team on the victory and the ACC regular season title. If the Heels play at that level every outing from this point forward, I expect they'll be cutting down more nets. I was proud of the way our guys fought and kept their heads above water down to the last few minutes. In all honesty, I didn't expect us to keep it that close for that long, especially without Nolan Smith being able to contribute, so I take some encouragement from Duke's performance on a going forward basis. In fact, when we faced that last 6-game gauntlet, I thought we'd probably do well to finish 3-3; so 5-1 is plenty satisfying to this Blue Devil.

You're one of the few UNC fans who weathers the occasional snipe to participate here, and I, for one, appreciate you and Wheat and Ziggy coming over to visit. Regarding the Lawson injury, I think you ought to recognize a few points. Initially, note that this was not a post-game excuse, but a pregame prediction. Second, that prediction is based on the fact that there is a history of UNC basketball exaggerating injuries before Duke games--the most notorious of which was the Jamieson incident before an ACC Tourney championship game. Finally, the report of Lawson receiving a pain shot in an AP story doesn't necessarily mean the toe injury was really all that serious, or even that he received a shot--after all, who was the source of the information that the AP reported?

With all due respect, I don't believe Lawson's injury was nearly as serious as the UNC basketball program portrayed it. If it had been, there's no way he could have played effectively in a game of that speed, intensity, and physicality. In the end, it doesn't really matter what I believe; nor does it affect the outcome. All it does is diminish my respect for a program and a head coach, neither of whom needs to resort to such puerile tactics. And before you say "everyone does it," I challenge you to cite an instance of the Duke program under K ever exaggerating an injury report.

In any event, you're welcome here as far as I'm concerned.

Kewlswim
03-09-2009, 01:05 PM
Biscuit,

First of all, congrats to you and your team on the victory and the ACC regular season title. If the Heels play at that level every outing from this point forward, I expect they'll be cutting down more nets. I was proud of the way our guys fought and kept their heads above water down to the last few minutes. In all honesty, I didn't expect us to keep it that close for that long, especially without Nolan Smith being able to contribute, so I take some encouragement from Duke's performance on a going forward basis. In fact, when we faced that last 6-game gauntlet, I thought we'd probably do well to finish 3-3; so 5-1 is plenty satisfying to this Blue Devil.

You're one of the few UNC fans who weathers the occasional snipe to participate here, and I, for one, appreciate you and Wheat and Ziggy coming over to visit. Regarding the Lawson injury, I think you ought to recognize a few points. Initially, note that this was not a post-game excuse, but a pregame prediction. Second, that prediction is based on the fact that there is a history of UNC basketball exaggerating injuries before Duke games--the most notorious of which was the Jamieson incident before an ACC Tourney championship game. Finally, the report of Lawson receiving a pain shot in an AP story doesn't necessarily mean the toe injury was really all that serious, or even that he received a shot--after all, who was the source of the information that the AP reported?

With all due respect, I don't believe Lawson's injury was nearly as serious as the UNC basketball program portrayed it. If it had been, there's no way he could have played effectively in a game of that speed, intensity, and physicality. In the end, it doesn't really matter what I believe; nor does it affect the outcome. All it does is diminish my respect for a program and a head coach, neither of whom needs to resort to such puerile tactics. And before you say "everyone does it," I challenge you to cite an instance of the Duke program under K ever exaggerating an injury report.

In any event, you're welcome here as far as I'm concerned.

Hi,

The Tar Heels have or should have their eyes on a bigger prize than beating Duke twice in one year. Wait a minute, maybe not? Maybe beating Duke twice in one year is bigger than a National Championship and if I were head coach of another team I too would risk having a player such as Lawson play? Yes, I have changed my opinion, beating Duke twice in a one year IS more important than having a legitimate shot at a National Championship--silly me. :D We rock!

GO DUKE!

blueprofessor
03-09-2009, 01:11 PM
Note that Kirshner did not say Lawson had suffered a "turf toe" injury--only that it's "like turf toe." In "Deanspeak," that's equivalent to saying that a player who went to the dentist this week for a filling is "recovering from reconstructive surgery." This is a customary practice of long standing in Chapel Hill prior to games against Duke, and I'm confident that these reports of Lawson's injury are being treated with appropriate skepticism by the Duke coaches and players.

One thing is certain, if it were actually "like turf toe", as if it were "like a broken foot", or "like typhus", or "like a broken jaw", or "like an amputated hand", it is unlikely that he would have played. The art of description by UNC was, however, ingenious and certainly tv friendly."Like"have a good day.:D

"Like"Best regards---Blueprofessor:)

devildeac
03-09-2009, 01:34 PM
Biscuit,

First of all, congrats to you and your team on the victory and the ACC regular season title. If the Heels play at that level every outing from this point forward, I expect they'll be cutting down more nets. I was proud of the way our guys fought and kept their heads above water down to the last few minutes. In all honesty, I didn't expect us to keep it that close for that long, especially without Nolan Smith being able to contribute, so I take some encouragement from Duke's performance on a going forward basis. In fact, when we faced that last 6-game gauntlet, I thought we'd probably do well to finish 3-3; so 5-1 is plenty satisfying to this Blue Devil.

You're one of the few UNC fans who weathers the occasional snipe to participate here, and I, for one, appreciate you and Wheat and Ziggy coming over to visit. Regarding the Lawson injury, I think you ought to recognize a few points. Initially, note that this was not a post-game excuse, but a pregame prediction. Second, that prediction is based on the fact that there is a history of UNC basketball exaggerating injuries before Duke games--the most notorious of which was the Jamieson incident before an ACC Tourney championship game. Finally, the report of Lawson receiving a pain shot in an AP story doesn't necessarily mean the toe injury was really all that serious, or even that he received a shot--after all, who was the source of the information that the AP reported?

With all due respect, I don't believe Lawson's injury was nearly as serious as the UNC basketball program portrayed it. If it had been, there's no way he could have played effectively in a game of that speed, intensity, and physicality. In the end, it doesn't really matter what I believe; nor does it affect the outcome. All it does is diminish my respect for a program and a head coach, neither of whom needs to resort to such puerile tactics. And before you say "everyone does it," I challenge you to cite an instance of the Duke program under K ever exaggerating an injury report.

In any event, you're welcome here as far as I'm concerned.

Though not a pre-game injury, who can forget the mortally injured Ronald Curry who limped off the court to his death bed several years ago and had a sub with an apparently much higher FT %age come in to shoot his free throws, only to miraculously recover in soccer-type fashion and return to the fray a mere moment or two later:rolleyes:.

BD80
03-09-2009, 02:38 PM
... The art of description by UNC was, however, ingenious and certainly TV friendly." ...

It wasn't ingenious, it was DISingenuous.


Though not a pre-game injury, who can forget the mortally injured Ronald Curry who limped off the court to his death bed several years ago and had a sub with an apparently much higher FT %age come in to shoot his free throws, only to miraculously recover in soccer-type fashion and return to the fray a mere moment or two later:rolleyes:.

Talk about a real warrior. The chance to have the game in his hands, and Curry skulked to the sideline to escape the pressure.

That isn't what they teach at West Point. It isn't what Coach K teaches.

Roy is NOT a leader of men. He is a well paid basketball coach who cares more about his reputation than about teaching his players.

This bs about Lawson being hurt didn't affect the game a bit. Why would Roy allow the media to make such a big deal of an injury that to may eyes did not hamper Lawson even a little bit? It isn't an isolated incident.

Does it matter what ol roy does? Not at all. While it is annoying that the media falls for his crap time and time again, we can take amusement at how pathetic it is. Listening to carowhiners like Biscuit try to justify the practice only adds to the amusement.

Matches
03-09-2009, 03:22 PM
Talk about a real warrior. The chance to have the game in his hands, and Curry skulked to the sideline to escape the pressure.



Curry was following orders. The fans in the area who heard Doh! tell him to "stay down" can attest to that.

Heelo
03-09-2009, 03:40 PM
This whole conspiracy theory is ridiculous.

What kind of cost-benefit analysis justifies a stunt like this? Basically you would have to assume that Roy Williams thinks that whatever minor psychological or PR edge would be gained by this story would outweigh the costs of (a) planning/coordinating it, and (b) keeping Lawson out of practice the day before the game. There's no way that adds up.

OK, but then let's say we justify the apparent lack of a positive cost-benefit analysis by claiming that either (a) the costs are smaller or the benefits are larger than are apparent to us, or (b) that Roy is acting irrationally. Then there is the issue of why Roy doesn't do this more often. Where's his history of employing this either remarkably effective or easy tactic? Not only do you have six seasons at UNC to examine, but also twelve or so at Kansas. Where's the history here?

OK, but then let's say that this tactic only works if you pull it out once every 5-6 years, and that's why Roy doesn't have a history of using it. Then why throw away this valuable tool on this game? UNC was facing an out-manned Duke team at home. UNC was favored by 8 in a rivalry that hasn't had a spread like that in years. Surely it would have been better to save this twice-a-decade tactic for the Final Four or for next season when UNC will need every advantage it can get.

OK, well then let's say that this tactic isn't a complete fabrication per se, but is more of an opportunistic exaggeration. Then (again) why keep Lawson out of practice on Friday? Why tape his toe and shoot it up with painkillers before the game? Why keep him out of practice on Monday? Why continue the charade?

OK, well then let's say that none of those things actually happened. Let's say it's all an elaborate ruse. How is this consistent with your impressions of the characters of Ty Lawson and Roy Williams. Lawson isn't given a lot of credit on this board for being crafty and sophisticated. This is a guy who literally doesn't lace up his shoes before games. How is it that there were never any contradictions in any of his interviews or actions? And as for Roy Williams, we're talking about a coach whose approach to the game is so simple as to border on being simplistic. Do you really believe that a guy who can't and/or won't teach zone defense is going to spend his time and energy scheming up these elaborate psychological ploys? Dean was a master at this sort of stuff. Roy? Not so much.

Matches
03-09-2009, 04:33 PM
With all due respect, Heelo, I think you're giving it more in-depth analysis than the issue really deserves.

UNC has a history of making a big media deal about injuries, and then having the player show up and play lights out. We've all seen it a bunch of times, so whenever they claim players with less-than-obvious (i.e. Zeller) injuries are "questionable", we tend to treat it with a fair degree of skepticism.

For all I know Lawson played through unimaginable pain yesterday - but if you cry wolf enough times, people will stop listening. Really nothing more complicated than that.

Stray Gator
03-09-2009, 05:31 PM
With all due respect, Heelo, I think you're giving it more in-depth analysis than the issue really deserves.

UNC has a history of making a big media deal about injuries, and then having the player show up and play lights out. We've all seen it a bunch of times, so whenever they claim players with less-than-obvious (i.e. Zeller) injuries are "questionable", we tend to treat it with a fair degree of skepticism.

For all I know Lawson played through unimaginable pain yesterday - but if you cry wolf enough times, people will stop listening. Really nothing more complicated than that.

Exactly. I don't think anyone is saying Lawson's toe injury was a complete fabrication. But based on past experience with injury reports coming out of Chapel Hill, let's just say that Duke fans have every reasonable justification for being highly skeptical of the magnitude of Lawson's injury. Fool me once, and all that.

And FWIW, Roy doesn't need a "cost-benefit analysis." There's certainly no downside for him in playing up the injury report. He doesn't have to plan or coordinate a story--just let word leak after practice to a few among the flock of home-grown-and-groomed Carolina journalists who eagerly convey every wisp of information about UNC basketball to their legions of loyal fans. And I fail to see how holding Lawson out of practice for one day at this stage of the season constitutes any appreciable "cost." In fact, there is only an upside for Roy: He can once again divert the spotlight from an opponent's disadvantageous situation to himself--and incidentally, it should be noted that Duke's injuries were all suffered during games on TV, where everyone could bear witness to their severity--by proclaiming: "Hey, everybody, look at me! Ole Roy's got serious injuries to deal with, too! We're the ones everybody ought to be feeling sorry for!"

And the most amusing part of all? UNC fans buy into it every time.

Heelo
03-09-2009, 07:46 PM
Exactly. I don't think anyone is saying Lawson's toe injury was a complete fabrication. But based on past experience with injury reports coming out of Chapel Hill, let's just say that Duke fans have every reasonable justification for being highly skeptical of the magnitude of Lawson's injury. Fool me once, and all that.

You're parroting this whole bit that the DBR does, but you're overlooking the fact that it's rooted in experiences with Dean Smith, not Roy Williams.



And FWIW, Roy doesn't need a "cost-benefit analysis." There's certainly no downside for him in playing up the injury report. He doesn't have to plan or coordinate a story--just let word leak after practice to a few among the flock of home-grown-and-groomed Carolina journalists who eagerly convey every wisp of information about UNC basketball to their legions of loyal fans. And I fail to see how holding Lawson out of practice for one day at this stage of the season constitutes any appreciable "cost." In fact, there is only an upside for Roy: He can once again divert the spotlight from an opponent's disadvantageous situation to himself--and incidentally, it should be noted that Duke's injuries were all suffered during games on TV, where everyone could bear witness to their severity--by proclaiming: "Hey, everybody, look at me! Ole Roy's got serious injuries to deal with, too! We're the ones everybody ought to be feeling sorry for!"

What part of immobilizing Lawson's big toe and shooting it full of painkillers constitutes a lack of appreciable cost? Blowing by defenders is a game of inches, and limiting the mobility of your biggest mismatch hardly constitutes an un-newsworthy development. I can only imagine the moaning on this board if Gerald Henderson had been in a similar situation.

Furthermore, would you care to speculate what the reaction would have been on this board if UNC had lost and then word started leaking out about Lawson's toe injury?

hood7
03-09-2009, 07:53 PM
Wait, is this the same fan base that insists that K "faked" a back injury in the mid-90s, despite the surgery on the back and the replacement of both hips (not all at the same time, of course, but evidence nonetheless that there were structural problems)?

Wow. Tarheel hypocrisy never ceases to amaze (although it no longer surprises).

roywhite
03-09-2009, 08:21 PM
For all I know Lawson played through unimaginable pain yesterday - but if you cry wolf enough times, people will stop listening. Really nothing more complicated than that.

Perhaps their coach will be known as "the Roy who cried wolf".

Hancock 4 Duke
03-09-2009, 08:30 PM
For Carolina, what does the word "Hurt" mean. The dictionary should describe it "A term Roy Williams often uses for a player who has been (use term lightly) injured within last 60 hours to convince other teams they might have a chance"

Stray Gator
03-09-2009, 09:14 PM
...What part of immobilizing Lawson's big toe and shooting it full of painkillers constitutes a lack of appreciable cost? Blowing by defenders is a game of inches, and limiting the mobility of your biggest mismatch hardly constitutes an un-newsworthy development. ...

Here's the fundamental disconnect: You're treating as established facts (a) that Lawson was seriously injured, (b) that his toe was "immobilized and shot full of painkillers," and (c) that his mobility was limited. I don't think anyone outside the UNC program can either verify or refute premises (a) or (b). But premise (c) was plainly observable. And I detected no appreciable "lack of mobility" or other sign of serious injury from Lawson as he played 36 minutes, scored 13 points, and collected 8 rebounds in the game yesterday.

I understand that, as a Carolina fan, you may find it utterly inconceivable that Roy Williams or anyone associated with the UNC program would exaggerate the gravity of a player's injury. Because that would be less than honorable and truthful. As someone who grew up among UNC fans and have a number of UNC fans in my family, I understand that for the Tar Heel faithful, the notion of any UNC coach being less than completely honorable and truthful simply does not compute. It just can't be so.

And that's why, like I said before, UNC fans invariably and unquestionably buy into whatever reports come out of the UNC basketball office. That's your prerogative, of course. I'm sure it makes the win over Duke yesterday, which was already well-deserved and worthy of celebration, even more exhilirating when you can believe that it was accomplished with Lawson courageously playing through excruciating pain...for 36 minutes. But please don't expect me to fall for this ancient ploy. Roy learned from the master how to play to his "audience." And his audience, once again, welcomes the illusion.

Newton_14
03-09-2009, 09:33 PM
In 87 or 88, unc has a big game at Clemson on a Tuesday night. They put out info that Kenny Smith had arthroscopic knee surgery on the Sunday morning before the game and was "doubtful". Kenny recovered very quickly and was able to suffer through the pain on the way to 41 points against Clemson.


On another note. Joe Ovies was discussing the conspiracy theory on the Adam Gold show this morning. Tim Brando dropped by the show and was relating how he and G-Man got the word on Lawson while they were calling the Texas/Kansas game on Saturday. The Producers alerted them of the injury and told them to put it on the air during their game. Brando stated he and G-Man looked at each other and were like "yeah, right". Brando said "I have been doing this a long time, and I knew that Lawson would play and would play well. It's not the first time we have seen this stuff from unc, and it is not like Roy Williams is above gamesmenship of this nature" End Quote.

Well guess what, within 5 minutes, unc's SID called the show and asked to go on the air. Joe O put him on, and the SID told this elaborate tale about Lawson being unable to get free throws to the rim on Saturday due to not being able to push off. He stated that Lawson was still in "incredible" pain some 15 minutes before tip-off and was not sure if he could go. The only evidence we have to go on is what we saw for ourselves during the game. He looked fine to me. But whatever.

1. Why is a SID listening to sports talk radio, and 2. Why is a SID calling in to a sports talk radio show???

"Things that make you go, hmmmm"

blueprofessor
03-09-2009, 09:44 PM
It wasn't ingenious, it was DISingenuous.





Ingenious means "Marked by inventive skill and imagination.":D
Of course, I would not take exception to your choice of words,such as disingenuous.:D

It is a marked UNC skill based on experience and quite imaginative in order to sate the fanbase.


Best regards---Blueprof:)

Heelo
03-09-2009, 09:51 PM
Here's the fundamental disconnect: You're treating as established facts (a) that Lawson was seriously injured, (b) that his toe was "immobilized and shot full of painkillers," and (c) that his mobility was limited. I don't think anyone outside the UNC program can either verify or refute premises (a) or (b). But premise (c) was plainly observable. And I detected no appreciable "lack of mobility" or other sign of serious injury from Lawson as he played 36 minutes, scored 13 points, and collected 8 rebounds in the game yesterday.

Well, if you're disputing (a) and (b), then you are admitting that you think there's some kind of grand conspiracy being perpetuated. It's one thing to think that an injury is being blown out of proportion, and it's another thing entirely to blatantly fabricate events.

Therefore, I'll refer you to my initial post arguing that such a grand conspiracy simply doesn't make sense.

Heelo
03-09-2009, 09:58 PM
In 87 or 88, unc has a big game at Clemson on a Tuesday night. They put out info that Kenny Smith had arthroscopic knee surgery on the Sunday morning before the game and was "doubtful". Kenny recovered very quickly and was able to suffer through the pain on the way to 41 points against Clemson.

So this trend is somehow proven by something that happened 20 years ago under a completely different coach? Wouldn't it be much stronger to provide an example of a Roy Williams-coached team doing something similar within this decade?



On another note. Joe Ovies was discussing the conspiracy theory on the Adam Gold show this morning. Tim Brando dropped by the show and was relating how he and G-Man got the word on Lawson while they were calling the Texas/Kansas game on Saturday. The Producers alerted them of the injury and told them to put it on the air during their game. Brando stated he and G-Man looked at each other and were like "yeah, right". Brando said "I have been doing this a long time, and I knew that Lawson would play and would play well. It's not the first time we have seen this stuff from unc, and it is not like Roy Williams is above gamesmenship of this nature" End Quote.

Well guess what, within 5 minutes, unc's SID called the show and asked to go on the air. Joe O put him on, and the SID told this elaborate tale about Lawson being unable to get free throws to the rim on Saturday due to not being able to push off. He stated that Lawson was still in "incredible" pain some 15 minutes before tip-off and was not sure if he could go. The only evidence we have to go on is what we saw for ourselves during the game. He looked fine to me. But whatever.

1. Why is a SID listening to sports talk radio, and 2. Why is a SID calling in to a sports talk radio show???

"Things that make you go, hmmmm"

The only thing that makes me go "Hmmmm..." is, again, why this subterfuge seems to be reserved for a home game against an overmatched team.

Newton_14
03-09-2009, 10:18 PM
So this trend is somehow proven by something that happened 20 years ago under a completely different coach? Wouldn't it be much stronger to provide an example of a Roy Williams-coached team doing something similar within this decade?




The only thing that makes me go "Hmmmm..." is, again, why this subterfuge seems to be reserved for a home game against an overmatched team.


Nice try Heelo. As has been stated by others, our team played well yesterday and your team played a little better and made a few more plays down the stretch. But with Duke being so overmatched and all, why bother creating such a fuss over an injury that ended up having no impact on his play?

And again, why is a SID listening and calling into sports talk radio shows geared towards fans?

RelativeWays
03-09-2009, 10:53 PM
Nobody makes mountains out of molehills quite like UNC and Duke fans. Its actually one of the things I like least about this rivalry. People will read into Lawson's toe, or Coach K's injury comment last year , etc whatever they want to. I do have one question for fans of both sides to which this nonsense is such serious business. When you start having to question the integrity and intent of every single action some player or coach on the other team makes, do you get a complimentary tinfoil hat in the mail?

Stray Gator
03-09-2009, 11:02 PM
Well, if you're disputing (a) and (b), then you are admitting that you think there's some kind of grand conspiracy being perpetuated. It's one thing to think that an injury is being blown out of proportion, and it's another thing entirely to blatantly fabricate events.

Therefore, I'll refer you to my initial post arguing that such a grand conspiracy simply doesn't make sense.

I don't think it's a "grand conspiracy"--just a purposeful exaggeration. That said, it's apparent that we have different perspectives, and I'm satisfied to leave it at that. Congrats again on the win. Your guys have the upper hand on ours this season, and no one is making excuses or suggesting there is anything fluky about it. Here's hoping everyone is healthy for the upcoming tournaments.

BD80
03-09-2009, 11:11 PM
Well, if you're disputing (a) and (b), then you are admitting that you think there's some kind of grand conspiracy being perpetuated. It's one thing to think that an injury is being blown out of proportion, and it's another thing entirely to blatantly fabricate events.

Therefore, I'll refer you to my initial post arguing that such a grand conspiracy simply doesn't make sense.

Lawson was obviously NOT seriously injured. Did he inject? Don't know. Is there any evidence he did? Doesn't matter.

The FACT is that unc made more of the injury than was warranted. The same thing that got 'ol roy so dadgum defensive last year.

We are not saying the injury was fabricated. It was exaggerated.

You wouldn't be so defensive if there weren't truth there.

devildeac
03-09-2009, 11:15 PM
Nobody makes mountains out of molehills quite like UNC and Duke fans. Its actually one of the things I like least about this rivalry. People will read into Lawson's toe, or Coach K's injury comment last year , etc whatever they want to. I do have one question for fans of both sides to which this nonsense is such serious business. When you start having to question the integrity and intent of every single action some player or coach on the other team makes, do you get a complimentary tinfoil hat in the mail?

FWIW, one of the local journalists (cough, cough) inserted the "...unlike some other schools" into K's statement last year about Duke's policy about discussing/publicizing injuries. Someone on the board here linked it last year and again this year, IIRC. Nothing like a little "yellow" (or light blue) journalism/inaccurate reporting to stoke those rivalry fires a bit more:rolleyes:.

throatybeard
03-09-2009, 11:16 PM
I can't believe this argument about Lawson's injury is still going on. I guess I'll repeat what I said in the thread in which Ziggy was trying to be nice to us, but we turned it into a pee fight.

There's a serious failure of logic in the "UNC fake injury" conspiracy theory. What, exactly, are they supposed to gain by exaggerating some kid's injury? Presumably, Mike Krzyzewski prepares our guys same for UNC irrespective of whether Ty Lawson plays or not. It's not like Jon Scheyer and Gerald Henderson walk out on the court, see Ty Lawson unexpectedly, and then soil their britches.

They may be doing it, but I don't see how it benefits them. So who cares?

roywhite
03-09-2009, 11:22 PM
I can't believe this argument about Lawson's injury is still going on. I guess I'll repeat what I said in the thread in which Ziggy was trying to be nice to us, but we turned it into a pee fight.

There's a serious failure of logic in the "UNC fake injury" conspiracy theory. What, exactly, are they supposed to gain by exaggerating some kid's injury? Presumably, Mike Krzyzewski prepares our guys same for UNC irrespective of whether Ty Lawson plays or not. It's not like Jon Scheyer and Gerald Henderson walk out on the court, see Ty Lawson unexpectedly, and then soil their britches.

They may be doing it, but I don't see how it benefits them. So who cares?

Some of the fans care, however rational or not. You cared enough to comment.

It's spin, gamesmanship, and part of their playbook that was authored by Dean Smith.

Big deal? No.

I'm done on this topic.

BD80
03-09-2009, 11:23 PM
Nobody makes mountains out of molehills quite like UNC and Duke fans. ... I do have one question for fans of both sides to which this nonsense is such serious business. When you start having to question the integrity and intent of every single action some player or coach on the other team makes, do you get a complimentary tinfoil hat in the mail?

No dadgum it. Do you get a hat for each post that questions the integrity and intent of other posters?

Hmm. If I recall the long thread a while ago, this would qualify as irony.

throatybeard
03-09-2009, 11:26 PM
Some of the fans care, however rational or not. You cared enough to comment.

I often care enough to comment about whether we're comporting ourselves in a rational, reasonable, and dignified manner (or not). Often, we aren't.

I don't care that much about Lawson's foot, at all, no offense to him.

dukegirlinsc
03-09-2009, 11:34 PM
I have to agree there. I didn't know about the shot though.


In reference to your picture in your signature, I can't wait to have kids...the main reason is so I can dress them in all Duke clothes, all of the time. (Half-way kidding.) ;)

RelativeWays
03-09-2009, 11:35 PM
FWIW, one of the local journalists (cough, cough) inserted the "...unlike some other schools" into K's statement last year about Duke's policy about discussing/publicizing injuries. Someone on the board here linked it last year and again this year, IIRC. Nothing like a little "yellow" (or light blue) journalism/inaccurate reporting to stoke those rivalry fires a bit more:rolleyes:.

And that's kind of the point. You can discuss the ethics of gamesmanship such as mysterious injuries or using scrub players to antagonize the opposing team's pg (and hope they get a technical/ejected) or whatever scenario you can dig up, I'm sure both teams have skeletons in their closet where they've tried to push questionable advantages, there are no white knights here. As with K's comments, i think the media took a hold of Lawson's toe injury and ran it into the ground, as they do everything with this rivalry. Did UNC build it up bigger than it was, maybe, but does it pass the common sense test. Uhhh, no.
As mentioned before, nobody at Duke is dumb enough to fall for such a ruse, and they knew Lawson would play. Some people have mentioned that this was an attempt for Huckleberry Hound to maintain his image and curry favor for his team with....the media? fans? Santa Claus? You might have have string of credibilty with the sole exception that his team is playing the most hated college basketball team in America. All Roy has to do to curry favor is show up. K's performace in Beijing has earned him alot of goodwill whereas before he was probably one of the most hated men in sports behind the Steinbrenner clan and Bill Belichick. Despite the fact that the media has mellowed on him a bit doesn't change the fact that a lot of people just do not like and do not trust Coach K. Too bad for them, but there it is nonetheless.
To bring this back to the media a bit, there's a little secret that some of you might know but maybe some don't. As far as the rise of the "Duke gets all the calls" phenomenon, this is an issue largely maintained not by Len Elmore, Jimmy Dykes or whatever announcer you can think of, but by the networks they work for. ESPN, Fox sports, they give their announcers talking points to focus on during the game, whether its the heart and hard work of Timler Tebrough, Lawsons toe, or those questionable calls Duke always seems to get. Why? To get people emotionally attached, thats why, objective observations are for schmucks and do little for ratings. Why not cast Duke as the villain, insinuate they cheat and guarantee that the average viewer will stick around to see those white boy snobs get whats coming to 'em. Sensationalism is where its at, sports coverage is just following age old trends. Me, I just don't care.

RelativeWays
03-09-2009, 11:40 PM
No dadgum it. Do you get a hat for each post that questions the integrity and intent of other posters?

Hmm. If I recall the long thread a while ago, this would qualify as irony.

Actually I wasn't questioning any poster's integrity or intent, I was questioning their gullibility and paranoia. There are plenty of people who sincerely believe every accusation placed on either Coach K, Huckleberry and their respective programs. I feel sorry for them, honestly.

OldSchool
03-10-2009, 12:15 AM
I don't know why people can't wrap their minds around why a team or its media sycophants would ever exaggerate a player's injury.

It has nothing to do with Ol' Roy trying to somehow "game" Coach K, and it doesn't require some "grand conspiracy."

It simply has to do with influencing the fan perceptions of that player.

If Lawson manages to play well, even with his "turf toe-like" injury, it makes his efforts seem even more heroic -- what a warrior, to play so well with such an injury!

And if he plays poorly, well after all he was injured.

Which is not of great concern to me as a Duke supporter, except that I found the disproportionate media coverage of Lawson's stubbed toe (I am sure it hurt; I know it hurts when I stub my toe) relative to the injuries Duke was dealing with somewhat annoying.

Even here on DBR, we had posters criticizing Lance's play without even acknowledging that he played the game on a sprained ankle!

CameronBornAndBred
03-10-2009, 01:35 AM
Earlier this evening Lawson was seen riding down Franklin Street in a wheelchair after a vicious bout with a pair of toenail clippers.

Biscuit
03-10-2009, 09:37 AM
As mentioned before, nobody at Duke is dumb enough to fall for such a ruse, and they knew Lawson would play.

There were a lot of people on this board last year that "knew" the exact same thing prior the the first UNC-Duke game at the Dean Dome last year. How did that turn out?

Really, that's the only thing I find off-putting about this whole thing. If you want to launch conspiracy theories about UNC injuries generally, rather than acknowledging that players on all teams get hurt and some play through it and some don't, that's fine. But as far as this particular player goes, I was a lurker around here last February and I remember all the threads about how there was no question Lawson would play in the game after he got hurt vs. Florida State. I think it was even discussed by DBR in its front page content. And now you are making the same allegations that were proven false last year. It makes no sense, and it doesn't reflect well.

I commented on this matter initially only because the DBR included a discussion of Lawson's injury in its game recap, and actually made it the longest paragraph of its recap. I like DBR generally as an enlightened and interesting view of things from the Duke perspective, but that read like something off a UNC-obssessed version of truthaboutduke.com instead of a decent, rational blog, and I just wanted to point it out to the site's owners. I recognize that in the comments, people should be free to launch whatever tinfoil hat theories they wish.

UrinalCake
03-10-2009, 10:33 AM
I do think that Carolina had something to gain by drawing attention to the injury - if they had lost the game, the Selection committee would take into account the injury when assigning the tournament seedings. It might not have made a difference, and they won the game anyways, but I do think that media coverage can affect the tournament seedings.

That said, you can't blame the local media for harping on the injury. It's an intriguing story line because of the fact that Lawson missed last year's game and Duke won. Also, while it would have been nice to give more coverage to Duke's injuries, the announcers also did not rehash the fact that Ginyard and Graves were out too, or that Zellar missed most of the season. I really think a bigger deal was made of it only because it was Lawson.

Biscuit
03-10-2009, 10:58 AM
I do think that Carolina had something to gain by drawing attention to the injury - if they had lost the game, the Selection committee would take into account the injury when assigning the tournament seedings. It might not have made a difference, and they won the game anyways, but I do think that media coverage can affect the tournament seedings.

That said, you can't blame the local media for harping on the injury. It's an intriguing story line because of the fact that Lawson missed last year's game and Duke won. Also, while it would have been nice to give more coverage to Duke's injuries, the announcers also did not rehash the fact that Ginyard and Graves were out too, or that Zellar missed most of the season. I really think a bigger deal was made of it only because it was Lawson.


UNC was a #1 seed unless they lost Sunday's game and their first round ACC tournament game. Even then they might have gotten a #1 seed if Oklahoma didn't win the Big 12 tournament. As Heelo said, if they wanted to make some sort of sympathy play, this would be a silly time to use it.

You're right about the media coverage. This was a huge game with significant conference and national implications between two top-ten teams, and Duke has never won a game against UNC when Lawson is on the court. If the media hadn't made a big deal of his injury, they wouldn't have been doing their job. If you're not gonna cover a Ty Lawson injury in a UNC-Duke game, why bother having media coverage at all?

RelativeWays
03-10-2009, 01:14 PM
There were a lot of people on this board last year that "knew" the exact same thing prior the the first UNC-Duke game at the Dean Dome last year. How did that turn out?

Well the huge difference is that anyone who saw the FSU-UNC game saw Ryan Reid wrestle Lawson to the ground thus resulting in the high ankle sprain, there was little doubt that the injury was real, the only question was the severity and if Lawson could go for the Duke game, did anyone think he'd miss it. If memory serves, the Duke game WAS the next game and people on the UNC staff wouldn't know right away if Lawson would be able to move with that ankle, let alone play, I doubt anyone at Duke would know more than they did at the time. I'm sure people doubted UNC's intent when they waited a couple of days before ruling Lawson out, but you have to reason that you would want to wait as long as possible before ruling out your starting PG for one of the big games of the year.
As far as the toe injury, I see it like this. Lawson is believed to be the most important UNC player, an injury to his toe is going to affect his speed and cutting ability. So it didn't surprise me to see the media blather on an on about an injury to most important player of the team most favored to win the NC as they play their arch rival and most hated college team in the US. This is little more than media exploitation of their audience, they done it with other teams and other sports, I don't see the big deal.

Biscuit
03-10-2009, 01:37 PM
Well the huge difference is that anyone who saw the FSU-UNC game saw Ryan Reid wrestle Lawson to the ground thus resulting in the high ankle sprain, there was little doubt that the injury was real, the only question was the severity and if Lawson could go for the Duke game, did anyone think he'd miss it. If memory serves, the Duke game WAS the next game and people on the UNC staff wouldn't know right away if Lawson would be able to move with that ankle, let alone play, I doubt anyone at Duke would know more than they did at the time. I'm sure people doubted UNC's intent when they waited a couple of days before ruling Lawson out, but you have to reason that you would want to wait as long as possible before ruling out your starting PG for one of the big games of the year.


My point was that the reaction on this board, and even from this site's writers, was the same last year as it was this year. Skepticism, doubt, poking fun at the severity of UNC player injuries. It was fine then, to be expected at a Duke basketball site I suppose. I just couldn't believe that after having completely missed the mark last time, they would do it again one year later.

If you think someone's doing something that you consider unsavory or immoral or whatever negative adjective you choose, and it turns out they are very clearly not doing whatever it was that you disliked, why would you turn around and accuse them of the very same thing at the next available opportunity?

OldSchool
03-10-2009, 01:58 PM
Skepticism, doubt, poking fun at the severity of UNC player injuries.

Oh, come on, Biscuit. Surely even you must have chuckled when they compared Lawson's stubbed toe to "turf toe."

The wikipedia page on turf toe has a link to a photo of Deion Sanders' real turf toe. OUCH!!

http://www.btls.com/joomla/component/option,com_gallery2/Itemid,31/?g2_itemId=43542

Watching the breathless media coverage of Lawson's big toe reminded me of the famous statement by Oscar Wilde, speaking of a characteristically lachrymose passage by Dickens: "You would need to have a heart of stone not to laugh at the death of Little Nell."

RelativeWays
03-10-2009, 02:21 PM
If you think someone's doing something that you consider unsavory or immoral or whatever negative adjective you choose, and it turns out they are very clearly not doing whatever it was that you disliked, why would you turn around and accuse them of the very same thing at the next available opportunity?

Its a dumb thing to do, but I think its pretty idiotic to point out the flaws and inequities in one team, when your own team is just as guilty of the same thing. Thats one thing I've had a hard time dealing with when it comes to UNC fans, at least on message boards and the like. How can you begrudge Duke for "getting all the calls" when the stats show UNC benefits from a far better foul call ratio than any other team in the ACC? How can you point to the amount of FTs Duke takes versus their opponents as proof they get all the calls when a) UNC leads the league in amount of FTs taken, b) your star player just broke the NCAA record for FTs made? You can't reconcile that logic without looking like a hypocrite. Duke fans are guilty as well. We'll whine and cry about Hansbrough benefitting from questionable fouls when JJ was great at jumping into defenders and drawing contact. Thats what they're supposed to do, even if we don't always like it when the opposition gets away with it.

Biscuit
03-10-2009, 02:21 PM
Oh, come on, Biscuit. Surely even you must have chuckled when they compared Lawson's stubbed toe to "turf toe."

The wikipedia page on turf toe has a link to a photo of Deion Sanders' real turf toe. OUCH!!

http://www.btls.com/joomla/component/option,com_gallery2/Itemid,31/?g2_itemId=43542

Watching the breathless media coverage of Lawson's big toe reminded me of the famous statement by Oscar Wilde, speaking of a characteristically lachrymose passage by Dickens: "You would need to have a heart of stone not to laugh at the death of Little Nell."

Sure, the comparison was out of hand, and even I got a chuckle out of it, especially since there's not turf on a basketball court.

The coverage, not so much. He's arguably been the difference in every single UNC-Duke game since he stepped on campus. You couldn't cover the game without covering his toe injury, plain and simple.

Also, the stuff I was talking about was this paragraph from the DBR game review, which has no basis whatsoever in fact:

"As we pretty much assumed, the ancient UNC stunt of saying that a player is highly questionable after a practice injury, only to turn around and have a starring role was whipped out again: Ty Lawson, who was said to not be able to walk after practice on Friday and who sat out Saturday, predictably had a big game, finishing with almost a triple double (13 points, nine from the line, eight boards and nine assists). If it hadn’t happened so many times over the years, it would be more believable. You can assume that a Michael Jordan or Christian Laettner or a guy who’s just exceptionally tough-minded can ovecome an injury like that, but it just happens so often that it has to be a strategy, and a rather old one now at that. He showed absolutely no effects of an injury."

1. Roy doesn't do this. Certainly not enough to call it a "strategy." I've brought it up several times, as has Heelo, and nobody's provided a list of similar incidents in the Williams era in response.

2. You would think folks around here would be particularly wary about making ridiculous claims like this after calling out Roy and the UNC athletic department and making the exact same allegations with respect to the exact same player last season ... and being 100% wrong. That's what I thought was amateurish and below the usual standards of the DBR.

RelativeWays
03-10-2009, 02:34 PM
I wish that was the worst thing the DBR main page has done. When Lawson got busted for the underage drinking (or whatver it was) the main page decided to trot out the name of every UNC player in the past 20 years who had had some infraction of the law. When you consider some of our players have had a couple of embarrassing moments as well, it was a pretty tacky thing to do.

MulletMan
03-10-2009, 03:00 PM
This thread has pretty much outlived its usefulness.