Who was the best ACC player to play against Duke?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Ok, there's another thread right now discussing which Duke player was the most clutch and it's got me all nostalgic. I'm interested in which ACC players had the best careers against Duke. I know that Hansborough's senior class is now 4-0 in Cameron, but which other players had great careers against Duke? Also, just out of curiosity, which of these players did you, as Duke fans respect?

This might also be a fun thread heading into ACC tourney week

Names that pop into my head:

Childress - always enjoyed watching him play, seem to remember some monster games against Duke
Corchiani - loved watching him dish - back when State seemed to mount a respectable opposition
Jamison - only Tar Hole I ever liked - seemed to lack some of the attitude that his baby blue contemporaries had
Stith - guy was a stone-cold shooter

As you can see, i cut my teeth in ACC basketball in the late 80's-mid 90's. I'd love to head personal memories and additions. Thanks!

GTHC, GTH!

[slower]

Not sure about career numbers against Duke, but I saw Len Bias drop 40 on us. The guy was a magnificent player, period. Sad to think of what might have been for him.

[gw67]

I don't have the data to back it up but I recall that Juan Dixon had some good games against the Devils during his last three years. I think the Duke fandom generally admired Dixon.

gw67

[aro24]

I had thought several times of starting a thread of my 5 favorite non-Duke ACC players....this is very similar. I will throw in my 5 that I respected and enjoyed watching....(and if memory serves correctly, they usually played well against Duke as well as everyone else)
In no particular order:
1. Gugliotta
2. Duncan
3. Sura
4. Singletary
5. Harpring
I too grew up watcing ACC from mid 80's on.....I could probably list 20, but these are some that really stick out in my mind.

ARo24

[hurleyfor3]

Dennis Scott was unstoppable against us, although we usually won.

ARo: Bob Sura!? The topic is *best* player to play against us, not ugliest.

[aro24]

HAHAHAHA
Like I said...just some guys that I liked to watch....when he was at FSU, I would have been in Jr. High..around 13 yrs old....at that time, I was around 6'3" and starting to dunk....I enjoyed seeing a white guy around my size that could sky. :-)
I guess I was pretty easy to please.

[Uncle Drew]

I don't know what UVA's record vs. Duke was head to head durring Ralph Sampsons years, but like most of the ACC we had no answer for him. I know Duke's worst ever loss was against UVA (43 points??) in the ACC tourney one year. And if I recall it could have been much worse.

Corchiani did some things against Duke (and everyone else) I never saw before or since. It was like he had eyes in the back of his head and knew a player was coming up behind him. He'd stop or even back up, draw the foul and sink two freethrows.

I saw Bias put up that 40 in person. The ONLY way Duke had of stopping him that night was keeping the ball out of his hands. And that was the 1986 first great Coach K team that should have beaten Lousiville for the national championship. It wasn't like he put up 40 on a bad Duke team.

One guy I also remember having good if not great games against Duke was Mark Price. That was one ACC player who while great, truly made everyone he played with better as well.

[brsett]

Rodney Rogers led a couple upsets against the Laettner/Hill teams. Even when Wake didn't get the upset, those games tended to be tight. Rodney Rogers was definitely my favorite ACC player growing up. Imagine if he had stayed for his senior season. Rogers, Childress, and Duncan all on one team. Dave Odom would have had to have really outdone himself to flame out before the Final 4 with that team.

[roywhite]

Well, we didn't really have an answer for David Thompson back in the '70's.

More recently, I'd say Randolph Childress. Not only was he a very good player, he was a Duke-killer.

[jipops]

Randolph Childress routinely stuck daggers in us. I specifically remember the game in '94 where Wake had the ball in one of the last possessions of the game. Everyone knew where it was going and who was going to shoot it. Even with Grant Hill on him he nailed a 3 to take the lead. Duke still had about 3 seconds left to get down the floor and Grant raced it down all the way but the shot trickled off the rim. Anyways, there were some guys where there was simply no answer for, Randolph Childress was one of them.

[Bostondevil]

Since Bias and Mark Price have already been mentioned, I'll bring up one more that I recall giving us fits, Muggsy Bogues. Did I spell that right? I'll let somebody else correct me cause I'm too lazy to look it up.

I know Len Bias got a standing O in Cameron. So did Juan Dixon when he played in Cameron for a charity game the summer after his senior year.

(At the time, I mentioned the standing O for Dixon to a Maryland friend of mine. She said, "Of course, how could you not love Juan Dixon?" Then I said, "All right, which Duke player would get a standing O in College Park?" She was left speechless. That's when I said she could never mention obnoxious Duke fans again, not until a Dukie got a standing O at Maryland.)

[Bostondevil]

Oh, and along a similar line, Johnny Dawkins used to play out of his mind at Maryland. It was his home crowd and he always delivered.

[cato]

Limiting the list to players I have watched:

Timmay was pretty darn good.
I still hate Childress.
Steve Blake deserves an honorable mention.
And I still have nightmares about 'Sheed's dunk in '95.

[yancem]

I don't know what UVA's record vs. Duke was head to head durring Ralph Sampsons years, but like most of the ACC we had no answer for him. I know Duke's worst ever loss was against UVA (43 points??) in the ACC tourney one year. And if I recall it could have been much worse.

Corchiani did some things against Duke (and everyone else) I never saw before or since. It was like he had eyes in the back of his head and knew a player was coming up behind him. He'd stop or even back up, draw the foul and sink two freethrows.

I saw Bias put up that 40 in person. The ONLY way Duke had of stopping him that night was keeping the ball out of his hands. And that was the 1986 first great Coach K team that should have beaten Lousiville for the national championship. It wasn't like he put up 40 on a bad Duke team.

One guy I also remember having good if not great games against Duke was Mark Price. That was one ACC player who while great, truly made everyone he played with better as well.

The thing that always drove me crazy about Corchiani was that no one ever seemed to make him shoot. If I had been playing him or been coaching a team playing, I would have clogged the passing lanes when he drove. He always was looking to pass so he was rarely in position to put up a makeable shot. Fortunately for him he was rarely forced to put it up.

Price was the guy growing up I was always in awe of. He made circus shots with incredible frequency. I actually day dreamed about going to Tech during his years.

Since Price, Childress would have to me the next guy on my list. I have no idea how he didn't make it in the nba. He was unstoppable his senior year. Hill was 5-6 inches taller and the national defensive player of the year and Childress made him look like high schooler at times. Simply amazing!

[roywhite]

Since Price, Childress would have to me the next guy on my list. I have no idea how he didn't make it in the nba. He was unstoppable his senior year. Hill was 5-6 inches taller and the national defensive player of the year and Childress made him look like high schooler at times. Simply amazing!

Shooting guards that are 6'1" or thereabouts have a hard time making it in the NBA. Childress was not good enough to stick as a PG and not big enough to stick as a shooter. Same for Rodney Monroe, Joe Forte, Daniel Ewing, etc. etc. College sucess simply doesn't guarantee success in the NBA.

[rsvman]

David Thompson, but then again he had outstanding games against just about everybody.

Blake and Dixon.

Elton Brown used to always score a lot of points against us at Virginia, although his team rarely won those games. He always looked like an all-ACC player when we played them.

[kexman]

I watched Rodney Rogers and Joe Smith dominate games in cameron. They were unstoppable. Favorite non-Duke player is Randolph Childress. Favorite play was during the ACC tourney when he was on fire. He made a move and his defender fell down. He motioned for him to get back up so that he could drain the 3 in the guys face. Incredibly cocky...but that is being in the zone.

[Tom B.]

Favorite play was during the ACC tourney when he was on fire. He made a move and his defender fell down. He motioned for him to get back up so that he could drain the 3 in the guys face. Incredibly cocky...but that is being in the zone.


That play occurred in the 1995 ACC Tournament final against UNC. The UNC defender who fell down was Jeff McInnis. Here's a video of the play:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRJMsoIptQo

Childress was on fire that whole Tournament. He set the scoring record for a single ACC Tournament with 107 points (a record I think he still holds), hit 23 three-pointers and dished out 19 assists. If you combine his points and assists, he was responsible for an average of at least 48.3 points per game, using the most conservative assumption that all of his assists resulted in two-point baskets, and none of them resulted in three-pointers or three-point plays.

[jipops]

Shooting guards that are 6'1" or thereabouts have a hard time making it in the NBA. Childress was not good enough to stick as a PG and not big enough to stick as a shooter. Same for Rodney Monroe, Joe Forte, Daniel Ewing, etc. etc. College sucess simply doesn't guarantee success in the NBA.

Childress is still enjoying a very solid career overseas at the age of 37. So even though the NBA didn't work out for him, basketball still has.

[Uncle Drew]

That play occurred in the 1995 ACC Tournament final against UNC. The UNC defender who fell down was Jeff McInnis. Here's a video of the play:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRJMsoIptQo

Childress was on fire that whole Tournament. He set the scoring record for a single ACC Tournament with 107 points (a record I think he still holds), hit 23 three-pointers and dished out 19 assists. If you combine his points and assists, he was responsible for an average of at least 48.3 points per game, using the most conservative assumption that all of his assists resulted in two-point baskets, and none of them resulted in three-pointers or three-point plays.

Thanks for finding and posting that link. When McInnis fell down, it appeared it was not only because of just a viscious cross over, but it was almost like he was trying to kick the ball. But after that Childress backs up to get set for a three pointer and does some gesture in the direction of McInnis. I think he's waving come over here (but I could be wrong), like you might want to come over here and guard me.

Now while I love seeing a UNC player get humiliated, is that not taunting? Not that I care in that instance, but it's clearly being cocky. So someone please explain to me why JJ and Laettner were so hated for being good and cocky? I can think of cocky players from other schools, even other Duke players that are / were cocky. So why the Laettner loathing and the JJ jeering?

[devildownunder]

I don't have the data to back it up but I recall that Juan Dixon had some good games against the Devils during his last three years. I think the Duke fandom generally admired Dixon.

gw67

Yeah, that's a great call. Randolph Childress was another one. I'm tempted to say Duncan or Joe Smith but Childress and Dixon played extremely well against some of our more talented backcourts, while Duncan and Smith were frontcourt players at a time when that area probably wasn't our strength.

[devildownunder]

Randolph Childress routinely stuck daggers in us. I specifically remember the game in '94 where Wake had the ball in one of the last possessions of the game. Everyone knew where it was going and who was going to shoot it. Even with Grant Hill on him he nailed a 3 to take the lead. Duke still had about 3 seconds left to get down the floor and Grant raced it down all the way but the shot trickled off the rim. Anyways, there were some guys where there was simply no answer for, Randolph Childress was one of them.

My old college roommate -- who was a D.C.-area guy and followed G'town and Maryland -- used to routinely say "Once Randolph Childress make up in his mind you gonna lose, it ain't nothin' you can do."

You have to say it just like that, too -- grammar be damned -- or it just "ain't" the same.

[rthomas]

Joe Smith

[Jim3k]

I know I'm dating myself, but I don't know how you could overlook Billy Cunningham. Sure, he was a Sixties player, but so what? He's HoF by any measure.

He averaged 24 ppg and 15 rpg

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cunnibi01.html (scroll down for college stats.)

I admit, however, that the linked stats page may include frosh numbers when frosh were not eligible for varsity play. He only played three varsity years and four are shown.

He was one tough opponent.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I know I'm dating myself, but I don't know how you could overlook Billy Cunningham. Sure, he was a Sixties player, but so what? He's HoF by any measure.

He averaged 24 ppg and 15 rpg

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cunnibi01.html (scroll down for college stats.)

I admit, however, that the linked stats page may include frosh numbers when frosh were not eligible for varsity play. He only played three varsity years and four are shown.

He was one tough opponent.

Don't forget Bobby Lewis whose momma taught him how to shoot a basketball. (For those who don't remember him, he played at Carolina in the 60's.)

And how about ole Lenny Chappell? A contemporary of Art Heyman who was tough in the paint and was known to throw a punch or two. He literally dwarfed his teammate, one Billy Packer.

Did I overlook Phil Ford's name in other posts?

[Johnboy]

I was also in Cameron to see Len Bias's 41 point game (http://www.sportsstats.com/bball/boxlines/DUKE/1986)in 1986. My impression was that Duke played him straight up, knowing he wouldn't beat us by himself. He was the only scorer for Maryland who had more than 8 points, and Duke led at the half 49-31.

Rodney Monroe and Michael Jordan also stick out in my mind as having big games against us back in the day. A quick perusal of Charlie Board shows Jordan as almost always above his career scoring average (~19/game) against us.

[jimsumner]

Duke played two games against Lew Alcindor at the beginning of the 1966-'67 season. Duke had Mike Lewis at center and Mike was pretty darn good.

But Alcindor/Jabbar just made mince-meat of Lewis. Chewed him up and spit him out.

So, the big guy wins the non-conference award for more than one game.

Goose Givens wins non-conference award for one game.

ACC?

1.Thompson
2.Childress
3.I'll have to think about it. Watching eight hours of women's hoops has fryed my brain and I get to do it all over again tomorrow.

[Bostondevil]

If we're going non-conference, Rodney McCrea, with that Louisville team that came into Cameron in the 82-83 season, took over the place. Worst home defeat of my college years and I was at the Wagner game.

[jimsumner]

That 1983 team that McCray played against ended the season 11-17.

Givens dismantled Spanarkel, Gminski, and Banks in the NCAA title game.

I'll go with context here.

[ricks68]

No fair, Jim. Even when we had the guys shooting over held tennis rackets during practice, Alcindor chewed us up in the real thing. If we are going to mention outside the ACC, then we should also count Maravich in a freshman game drop over 40 on us in a losing effort.

But within the ACC, I'd also like to second Billy Countryham, along with Larry Miller. Oh, did I hate those guys.

ricks

[heyman25]

David Thompson without a doubt.

Randolph Childress gave Duke fits.

Bobby Jones and Larry Miller led the Heels many times to victory against Duke.

[DukeWarhead]

Len Bias is my all time favorite non-Duke ACC player. Just seemed to be on such a different level than everyone else.

I think his sudden departure only served to magnify how good he was and make us all wonder what could have been.

I honestly think he was Jordan good. Honestly...

[RelativeWays]

In recent times I'd say Al Thornton with FSU. He always lit us up and I was very happy when he left.

[rickshack]

It always seemed to me that Randolph Childress was at
Wake at least 5 years and had played for Georgetown 2 years before that.
The man was just a wonder to watch. I hated him:)

[namvet1965]

Again, showing my age (77)!But, I'm sure there are some of you born before 1950. Anyhow, have you forgotten David Thompsom? Michael Jordan? J. R. Reid? My favorite alltime play there was S. Battier fouling Brendan Haywood in 2001! I mean, like was Haywood going to drive to the basket for a layup or something?
Now, on a higher plane I have always seen Duke and UNC as being elegant programs, both several cuts above the plebian masses. Let's act that way and occasionally pull for the other. I do and I hope some of you do also!As schools we have a lot in common and I assure you that the faculties enjoy close collaboration with each other in many areas. I know I'm sounding a bit preachy, but I don't mean to do that. Let's have a good game and good tournament!

[trinity92]

While I was at Duke, I saw Bryant Stith (VA) drop a bunch on us at cameron, and Tom Gugliotta (NCS) was always ready to do the same. Walt Williams (MD) had at least one amazing game at Cameron too.

[DukieInKansas]

Again, showing my age (77)!But, I'm sure there are some of you born before 1950. Anyhow, have you forgotten David Thompsom? Michael Jordan? J. R. Reid? My favorite alltime play there was S. Battier fouling Brendan Haywood in 2001! I mean, like was Haywood going to drive to the basket for a layup or something?
Now, on a higher plane I have always seen Duke and UNC as being elegant programs, both several cuts above the plebian masses. Let's act that way and occasionally pull for the other. I do and I hope some of you do also!As schools we have a lot in common and I assure you that the faculties enjoy close collaboration with each other in many areas. I know I'm sounding a bit preachy, but I don't mean to do that. Let's have a good game and good tournament!

I remember asking if Michael Jordan was a senior every time I saw him play against Duke. I couldn't wait for him to hit the NBA.

Based on your "name" of namvet1965, I assume you did at least one tour of Southeast Asia. I would like to thank you for your service to our country.

Please don't take this next statement the wrong way, but I sincerely hope we beat the tar out of your heels on Sunday.

[OldPhiKap]

The best I ever saw in Cameron was Len Bias in 1986. He was so good he got a standing O from the Crazies after he fouled out late in the game.

He also single-handedly beat UNC coming down the stretch that year, getting us back into the regular season conference race.

[Bostondevil]

Now, on a higher plane I have always seen Duke and UNC as being elegant programs, both several cuts above the plebian masses. Let's act that way and occasionally pull for the other.

State? Always. Wake? Sure. BC is now my local team so yeah. UVA, GA Tech, even Maryland in the Tourney against non-ACC teams? You bet!

I would do anything for Duke, but I won't do that!

I will however root for UNC alum Anoop on American Idol, that's the best I can do.

[slower]

Anyhow, have you forgotten David Thompsom? Michael Jordan? J. R. Reid?

which of these things does not belong with the others?

[Smoky Cameron]

I see four fingers. I see Phil Ford holding up four fingers.

[Son of Jarhead]

Many players come to mind that I enjoyed watching... I watched every ACC game I could growing up, still do. Pretty much everyone has been mentioned so far, though. I'd have to agree on Childress (I guess I'd rank him as my favorite non-Duke player to watch) being really good against us, but then again, he didn't just do it to us... that clip of him breaking McInnis off at the ankles & motioning "get up" to him is awesome! On Brian Stith (UVA), I recall Coach K taking the PA mike at the end of his last game at Cameron and telling the crowd how much he appreciated & admired Stith & asking the crowd to recognize this "great competitor". (someone please correct me if I'm remembering that all wrong)

I wonder what Duke players fans of other ACC schools would mention in a thread like this??? ...Grant Hill probably. I did have one very rabid unc fan tell me back in 2000 that he thought Chris Carrawell was always killing them & was looking forward to him graduating so they wouldn't have to face him any more. We know who was hated, but who was liked & respected?

[captmojo]

On Brian Stith (UVA), I recall Coach K taking the PA mike at the end of his last game at Cameron and telling the crowd how much he appreciated & admired Stith & asking the crowd to recognize this "great competitor". (someone please correct me if I'm remembering that all wrong)

I think you've got it right. My question is how many others has he recognized this way?

What coach, from any other ACC school, has ever done a recognition as such?

[Cameron]

Thanks for finding and posting that link. When McInnis fell down, it appeared it was not only because of just a viscious cross over, but it was almost like he was trying to kick the ball. But after that Childress backs up to get set for a three pointer and does some gesture in the direction of McInnis. I think he's waving come over here (but I could be wrong), like you might want to come over here and guard me.

Now while I love seeing a UNC player get humiliated, is that not taunting? Not that I care in that instance, but it's clearly being cocky. So someone please explain to me why JJ and Laettner were so hated for being good and cocky? I can think of cocky players from other schools, even other Duke players that are / were cocky. So why the Laettner loathing and the JJ jeering?

The fact that they are average looking white guys has a lot to do with it. You hate bringing race into it, but that's just the way it is. White people, in particular, hate seeing other white people succeed on that type of level.

Steve Blake was probably the best against Duke this decade. He was the only player during Jason Williams' career that could check him. The fact that Blake was on the bench for Williams' eight points in 14 seconds at Maryland is proof of this. Blake was a heck of a player and competitor.

As for Randolf Childress, his 40 on us in the '95 ACC Tournament is about all that needs to be said. He was the man, and could get it done in Cameron as well.

[namvet1965]

How about DT, MJ? They were no slouches either!

[tele]

I have to agree with David Thompson as number one on the list. Also Bias and Childress. Would add Jeff Lamp as someone not yet mentioned. Those NC state, Wake, Maryland and Va teams were always very competitive!!!

[Son of Jarhead]

Great questions, Captmojo!

Anybody have any ideas on this?

[Gooch]

These two have been mentioned and I had to comment...

When I saw the thread title I immediately thought of Childress. I was class of '94 and it seems like we lost to Wake almost every time we played them and Childress just owned us in all those games.

Jamison had the quickest release in the post that I've ever seen--seemed to shoot even before he caught it. Our guys never had a chance to defend him.

Clearly there are better ACC players to put up good numbers against Duke, but I sure dreaded seeing these guys on the court against us.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Ralph Sampson never lost to Duke, even when he was a freshman and we had the Aircraft Carrier - Mike Gminski. Didn't help.

Ralph Chrildress and Rodney Rodgers both went Bootsie on us in their final senior games against us in Cameron. Tim Duncan was pretty good too.

And of course Bootsie Thornton for coining a phrase we use today.

[Tom B.]

On Brian Stith (UVA), I recall Coach K taking the PA mike at the end of his last game at Cameron and telling the crowd how much he appreciated & admired Stith & asking the crowd to recognize this "great competitor". (someone please correct me if I'm remembering that all wrong)


You're remembering it mostly correctly. That game against UVa was our next-to-last home game of the 1991-92 season. That was also the game, incidentally, in which Hurley came back from his broken foot. Kenny Blakeney actually started that game at the point for Duke, because Grant Hill had sprained his ankle in practice and Hurley -- who still wasn't quite back to 100% -- came off the bench and played limited minutes.

Anyway, back to Stith. Duke won the game 76-67, and while the players were shaking hands and the band was playing the fight song, K took the mike and asked the band to stop playing because he had an announcement. He told the crowd that coming into that game, Stith needed 10 points to break Ralph Sampson's UVa career scoring record, and "we tried to play good defense on him, but he scored 17." K then presented Stith with the game ball and the crowd gave him a standing O.

[bjornolf]

Anyway, back to Stith. Duke won the game 76-67, and while the players were shaking hands and the band was playing the fight song, K took the mike and asked the band to stop playing because he had an announcement. He told the crowd that coming into that game, Stith needed 10 points to break Ralph Sampson's UVa career scoring record, and "we tried to play good defense on him, but he scored 17." K then presented Stith with the game ball and the crowd gave him a standing O.

Now THAT'S class. I'm just glad that K didn't have to decide whether or not to do that for Hansbrough at senior night. Hopefully K won't face that decision in the finals of the ACCT either, unless we win the game. THAT would be cool!

[Classof06]

I was going to say Tim Duncan. Like Hansbrough, he was undefeated at Cameron. That has to count for something.

[devildownunder]

The fact that they are average looking white guys has a lot to do with it. You hate bringing race into it, but that's just the way it is. White people, in particular, hate seeing other white people succeed on that type of level.

Steve Blake was probably the best against Duke this decade. He was the only player during Jason Williams' career that could check him. The fact that Blake was on the bench for Williams' eight points in 14 seconds at Maryland is proof of this. Blake was a heck of a player and competitor.



Have seen this explanation before and have never understood it. Must be something to it, though. That's sad. It's interesting that you mention Blake. He never seemed to draw the ire of other fans the way Duke's "average looking white guys" have.

[jv001]

Number One the Great DT(David Thompson)
Randolph Childress
Walter Davis(one of two who deserves caps)
Tim Duncan
larry miller

Go Duke!

[OldSchool]

Ralph Sampson never lost to Duke, even when he was a freshman and we had the Aircraft Carrier - Mike Gminski. Didn't help.

I'm surprised it took nearly 50 posts before someone mentioned Ralph Sampson.

I think Ralph Sampson suffers from the reverse of the "Michael Jordan Effect" -- because Jordan became such a phenomenal player in the pros, that tends to color people's perceptions of his college career. Jordan was certainly an excellent college basketball player, but nothing like he became in the pros.

In Ralph's case, it was the opposite. He was really a dominating player in college (and consistently dominated Duke) but not at the next level, so people tend to forget how good he was in college, in fact the three-time national player of the year.

He certainly consistently administered beatdowns of Duke, one of which being the game in the ACC Tournament that prompted the famous "here's to never forgetting" line by Coach K.

[Son of Jarhead]

Thanks for the details. I knew K had recognized Stith on the PA... I guess I must have been so impressed with K's classy actions that I didn't pay enough attention to the actual words. I don't think I've ever heard of any other coach doing anything like that. You don't spell class with a K, but you sure can define it with one.