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View Full Version : Last Night's Game: Rule Question/Clarification



DukiesPA
03-04-2009, 09:25 AM
Not sure what the time was, but I believe it was relatively early in the 1st half when Scheyer had his four-point play (was fouled hitting a three, then made the free throw).

The ball clearly banked off of the rim and hit the shot clock before falling in. I was always under the impression that whenever the ball hit the shot clock it was a dead ball and out of bounds. Am I wrong?

This clearly helped us a bunch -- four-point play when the best we could have done would have been three foul shots -- so I'm not complaining about getting a few extra points, but was it legit?

Rudy
03-04-2009, 09:35 AM
By rule it would be a dead ball, like going over the backboard. I wondered about it when it happened but t.v. did not show a replay and the commentators said nothing about it.

bjornolf
03-04-2009, 09:39 AM
I wasn't sure about that either. I've seen several plays in the last few weeks (not all of them including Duke) where the ball hit the shot clock and play continued. I think there were a couple in the FSU game, maybe on a missed dunk or something? Maybe it depends on where the clock is placed (even with the backboard vs. behind it)? Rule change?

According to the NCCA Rules at the ncaa publications website:


Section 1. Out of Bounds—Player, Ball
Art. 1. A player shall be out of bounds when he or she touches the floor or any object other than a player on or outside a boundary line. An airborne player’s status shall be where he or she was last in contact with the floor.
Art. 2. The ball shall be out of bounds when it touches a player who is out of bounds; any other person, the floor, or any object on or outside a boundary; the supports or back of the backboard; or the ceiling, overhead equipment or supports.
Art. 3. The ball shall be out of bounds when it passes over the backboard from any direction.


It does say "the supports or back of the backboard", but the shot clock isn't mentioned, so I'm not sure. I guess it's okay then. Our shot clock looks almost even with the front of the backboard, so the ball never passed "over the backboard". Not sure. "Overhead equipment" is grouped in wiht the ceiling, so I assume that means the big scoreboard above the floor, not things like the shot clock attached to the backboard.

alteran
03-04-2009, 09:55 AM
I wasn't sure about that either. I've seen several plays in the last few weeks (not all of them including Duke) where the ball hit the shot clock and play continued. I think there were a couple in the FSU game, maybe on a missed dunk or something? Maybe it depends on where the clock is placed (even with the backboard vs. behind it)? Rule change?

According to the NCCA Rules at the ncaa publications website:


It does say "the supports or back of the backboard", but the shot clock isn't mentioned, so I'm not sure. I guess it's okay then. Our shot clock looks almost even with the front of the backboard, so the ball never passed "over the backboard". Not sure. "Overhead equipment" is grouped in wiht the ceiling, so I assume that means the big scoreboard above the floor, not things like the shot clock attached to the backboard.

One thing I don't think the NCAA takes enough thought about is ease of officiating versus payoff. Why not just standardize the shot clock display and make it part of the backboard? Or put it behind the glass?

Keep the official from having to determine whether it grazed the shot clock. Everybody wins.

CDu
03-04-2009, 10:02 AM
The shot clock is slightly behind the backboard. Therefore, if the ball hits the shot clock, it has gone over the backboard, which would make it out of bounds. The shot clock location was chosen to "eliminate" this ambiguity - if the ball hits the shot clock, there's no question it has gone over the backboard and thus out of bounds.

If the ball hit the shot clock (and I think it did), it should have been called out of bounds, and thus Scheyer should have just gotten three free throws rather than getting the made 3 and one additional free throw. It's hard to tell if it did or not. My first instinct was that it did, and I didn't see a conclusive replay. It's very possible that the refs just missed the call.

CDu
03-04-2009, 10:04 AM
I wasn't sure about that either. I've seen several plays in the last few weeks (not all of them including Duke) where the ball hit the shot clock and play continued. I think there were a couple in the FSU game, maybe on a missed dunk or something? Maybe it depends on where the clock is placed (even with the backboard vs. behind it)? Rule change?

According to the NCCA Rules at the ncaa publications website:


It does say "the supports or back of the backboard", but the shot clock isn't mentioned, so I'm not sure. I guess it's okay then. Our shot clock looks almost even with the front of the backboard, so the ball never passed "over the backboard". Not sure. "Overhead equipment" is grouped in wiht the ceiling, so I assume that means the big scoreboard above the floor, not things like the shot clock attached to the backboard.

Shot clocks are just slightly farther back than the backboard. Thus, if the ball hits the shotclock, it has gone over the backboard. If it hit the shot clock, it should have been considered out of bounds and thus a missed shot.

bjornolf
03-04-2009, 10:10 AM
I've seen this happen much more obviously than the Scheyer shot several times this week around college basketball, and I haven't seen them call it out once. If the shot clock is BARELY offset from the front of the backboard, then how could one say that the ball would have definitely gone over if it hadn't touched it in some instances (the spin of the ball and the angle it hit the top of the backboard could TOTALLY affect this)? Further, in many rules in many sports (including the halfcourt basketball rule and the line of scrimmage forward pass rule in football, and they're pretty loose with out of bounds in soccer), the entire ball and the entire player must go over the line. Does the ENTIRE ball have to pass over the backboard to count it as the ball going over the backboard, or just the barest sliver? I've seen guys shoot jumpers from the baseline that I'm POSITIVE passed at least a part of the ball over the backboard. Should those be called out? If the ball bounces on the top of the backboard without going the rest of the way over and not touching the shot clock, THAT'S not out. Part of the ball is definitely past the backboard in those instances, but part of it is still in front of the backboard, just as it is when it hits the shot clock. It's kind of confusing. "Passes over" is kind of vague. The literal definition is that the ball has to go up on one side of the board and come down on the opposite side. This has NOT happened if the ball just touches the shot clock. They either need to mention the clock by name in the rules, or reword "passes over" to "if any part of the ball passes from one side of the backboard to the other above said backboard". They should put the shot clock a foot behind the backboard, and then there'd be know question.

CDu
03-04-2009, 10:24 AM
I've seen this happen much more obviously than the Scheyer shot several times this week around college basketball, and I haven't seen them call it out once.

Really? I haven't seen those games. Every time I've seen the ball hit the shot clock it's been called out of bounds.


If the shot clock is BARELY offset from the front of the backboard, then how could one say that the ball would have definitely gone over if it hadn't touched it in some instances (the spin of the ball and the angle it hit the top of the backboard could TOTALLY affect this)? Further, in many rules in many sports (including the halfcourt basketball rule and the line of scrimmage forward pass rule in football, and they're pretty loose with out of bounds in soccer), the entire ball and the entire player must go over the line. Does the ENTIRE ball have to pass over the backboard to count it as the ball going over the backboard, or just the barest sliver? I've seen guys shoot jumpers from the baseline that I'm POSITIVE passed at least a part of the ball over the backboard. Should those be called out? It's kind of confusing.

There's certainly gray area on jumpshots from the baseline. If the official feels that the ball went over the backboard, it should be disallowed. I'm guessing that this happens much less than it appears - guys don't really like to shoot from behind the backboard. But for historical perspective, Larry Bird had a basket disallowed for shooting over the backboard one time.


They should put the shot clock a foot behind the backboard, and then there'd be know question.

The shot clock is quite a few inches in back of the backboard.Thus, if the ball hits it, it is pretty clearly going to have gone over the backboard. But I agree - it should be as clear as possible.

blueprofessor
03-04-2009, 10:48 AM
If the official feels that the ball went over the backboard, it should be disallowed. I'm guessing that this happens much less than it appears - guys don't really like to shoot from behind the backboard. But for historical perspective, Larry Bird had a basket disallowed for shooting over the backboard one time.




Interesting discussion of the rule.Thanks all.:D
Wilt used to dunk after receiving high passes over the backboard on inbounded passes.
This was one of several (offensive goaltending,stuffing his foul shots by jumping from a run behind the foul line) Wilt specials that were ruled illegal by the NCAA.
I think I saw the Bird shot on a highlight.

I am assuming this Scheyer shot was the catalyst for Hamilton's calling for a video review and Collins' failure to do so which eventually led to Hamilton's technical foul.

Best regards--Blueprofessor:):)

CDu
03-04-2009, 10:50 AM
Interesting discussion of the rule.Thanks all.:D
Wilt used to dunk after receiving high passes over the backboard on inbounded passes.
This was one of several (offensive goaltending,stuffing his foul shots by jumping from a run behind the foul line) Wilt specials that were ruled illegal by the NCAA.
I think I saw the Bird shot on a highlight.

I am assuming this Scheyer shot was the catalyst for Hamilton's calling for a video review and Collins' failure to do so which eventually led to Hamilton's technical foul.

Best regards--Blueprofessor:):)

It's amazing how dominant Chamberlain must have been (long before my time). And yes - this probably had at least a bit to do with the buildup to Hamilton's technical.

bjornolf
03-04-2009, 12:55 PM
There's certainly gray area on jumpshots from the baseline. If the official feels that the ball went over the backboard, it should be disallowed. I'm guessing that this happens much less than it appears - guys don't really like to shoot from behind the backboard. But for historical perspective, Larry Bird had a basket disallowed for shooting over the backboard one time.

There was a play a few years ago where a player was falling out of bounds on the baseline right in the corner. He jumped and shot the ball from about a foot out of bounds over the baseline and made the three. It was allowed. By the laws of physics and geometry, for a shot to drop into a basket up against a backboard from a point that is CLEARLY behind the backboard on the Y axis from twenty feet away on the X axis, wouldn't it HAVE to have gone over the backboard? How would the refs miss that? When playing pickup, I've tried and made that shot a few times just for fun between games. I was never able to make it without the ball going over the backboard.

hughgs
03-04-2009, 01:02 PM
I wasn't sure about that either. I've seen several plays in the last few weeks (not all of them including Duke) where the ball hit the shot clock and play continued. I think there were a couple in the FSU game, maybe on a missed dunk or something? Maybe it depends on where the clock is placed (even with the backboard vs. behind it)? Rule change?

According to the NCCA Rules at the ncaa publications website:


It does say "the supports or back of the backboard", but the shot clock isn't mentioned, so I'm not sure. I guess it's okay then. Our shot clock looks almost even with the front of the backboard, so the ball never passed "over the backboard". Not sure. "Overhead equipment" is grouped in wiht the ceiling, so I assume that means the big scoreboard above the floor, not things like the shot clock attached to the backboard.

In basketball the ball is considered out of bounds when the ball touches the edges of the playing field. I suspect that over the backboard really means (and the rules would have to verify this) that the ball breaks the plane of the backboard.

Matches
03-04-2009, 01:04 PM
I don't think it hit the clock. It looked that way live, but when they showed the replay I was satisfied it did not.

bjornolf
03-04-2009, 01:04 PM
In basketball the ball is considered out of bounds when the ball touches the edges of the playing field. I suspect that over the backboard really means (and the rules would have to verify this) that the ball breaks the plane of the backboard.

Okay, but balls are allowed to bounce on top of the backboard if they don't touch the shot clock, aren't they? If they do that, they've "broken the plane" of the backboard by any definition I've seen. The ball is, after all, much wider than the backboard, isn't it?

hughgs
03-04-2009, 01:06 PM
Okay, but balls are allowed to bounce on top of the backboard if they don't touch the shot clock, aren't they? If they do that, they've "broken the plane" of the backboard by any definition I've seen. The ball is, after all, much wider than the backboard, isn't it?

I don't know. I've always assumed, based on my break the plane idea, that if they bounce on the top of the backboard that the ball would be out of bounds.

hurleyfor3
03-04-2009, 01:10 PM
The Larry Bird behind the backboard shot is on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9qRNB4uZGU). It was one of those "home" games the Celtics used to play at the Hartford Civic Center.

Funny thing is, for several years the NBA ran commercials showing this shot. Which was against the rules!

FireOgilvie
03-04-2009, 01:18 PM
The 4 pt play occurred at 15:22, the technical on Hamilton was at 8:45 left to play in the first half. I doubt that is what Hamilton was complaining about.

bjornolf
03-04-2009, 01:28 PM
I don't know. I've always assumed, based on my break the plane idea, that if they bounce on the top of the backboard that the ball would be out of bounds.

I'm almost positive that balls that bounce on top of the backboard but don't touch the shot clock are still in if the fall off the backboard on the "in" side. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here. I can't find any mention of the top of the backboard in the rules at all.

FireOgilvie
03-04-2009, 01:31 PM
Just looked at the shot again on ESPN360... it looks like it barely touches the shot clock... you can see the spin of the ball change. Also, all of the FSU players and Leonard Hamilton started complaining that it hit the shot clock. The shot probably only cost FSU one point; Scheyer would have made all 3 FTs.

shotrocksplitter
03-04-2009, 01:44 PM
The officials missed another one of these as well. Later in the game (2nd half), a FSU shot bounced up off the rim and then bounced on the top of the backboard. No whistle, play continued.

I think this may have been the play that got Z's nose busted on the jump ball.

We may have gotten an extra point, but we also got Zoubek all bloody.

Kfanarmy
03-04-2009, 01:45 PM
Really? I haven't seen those games. Every time I've seen the ball hit the shot clock it's been called out of bounds.

.

I have seen multiple examples in the past month..

hughgs
03-04-2009, 02:02 PM
I'm almost positive that balls that bounce on top of the backboard but don't touch the shot clock are still in if the fall off the backboard on the "in" side. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here. I can't find any mention of the top of the backboard in the rules at all.

If that's the case, and I don't know if it's true, then the shot clock rule can't fall under the over the backboard rule. It would have to fall under a different rule. If the rules are organized like volleyball then touching the shot clock would be governed as if the ball touched the scoreboard.

blueprofessor
03-04-2009, 02:05 PM
The 4 pt play occurred at 15:22, the technical on Hamilton was at 8:45 left to play in the first half. I doubt that is what Hamilton was complaining about.

and the failure to grant Hamilton's request for a video review of Scheyer's near-miss of the shot clock on his 3-pointer merely lit a fuse.From an acquaintance who sat behind the FSU bench, I learned that this feud is profound and that Collins may have made a face or two at Hamilton that got Hamilton's goat.When you are angry at someone,you may unreasonably perceive another as acting with hostile intent.

I doubt that many refs try to bait coaches the way umps do baseball players.But I am an optimist.

In spite of a taciturn appearance, Hamilton is an emotional volcano who erupts occasionally.Last night, he did blow-up and the technical did leave a caldera,or so FSU fans say.

At any rate, at least their fans really do admire Coach K,while thinking that Duke,like Carolina, gets the calls. Their proof re Duke is that ESPN harps on it.Sad that 1 media outlet is so dominant, because a lot of fans do not have the intellectual curiosity to investigate and not just accept "facts" from biased networks.They also have an announcer ,whom I like personally, who is always talking about bad calls.So the typical FSU fan's mindset is that forces are working against his team.
Still,FSU fans are reasonable compared to many Duke -haters because they think K is the best (and admire him as a man and patriot) and that Duke has been the best program in America for 25 years.Also, they think Duke is up there with the top Ivies.That doesn't mean they don't want to beat our butt---we are their #1 team to beat in basketball,while Florida is that top target in football.
I can stand that rivalry much better than some rival's fans that delusionally deny all the top,quantifiable assets and rankings Duke has accumulated athletically and academically.

So,FSU is having a really fine season (for them), they have no-quit players and a tremendous warrior in Douglas, and a coach who loves his players and, a comment last night about Alabi's foul aside, does not whine about refs( red Williams) or blow up (baby blue Williams) before ascertaining the accuracy of another coach's alleged comments.

Best regards---Blueprofesor:)

DukieInKansas
03-04-2009, 02:22 PM
I don't know. I've always assumed, based on my break the plane idea, that if they bounce on the top of the backboard that the ball would be out of bounds.

I believe that is correct. There was a shot like this in the VT game - don't remember which team was shooting. It bounced on the top of the backboard and was ruled out of bounds - change of possession.

-jk
03-04-2009, 02:46 PM
From the 2009 NCAA rule book:


Section 1. Out of Bounds—Player, Ball...

Art. 2. The ball shall be out of bounds when it touches ... the supports or back of the backboard; or the ceiling, overhead equipment or supports.

Art. 3. The ball shall be out of bounds when any part of the ball passes over
the backboard from any direction.

As I read it, the front, top, and sides of the backboard are in bounds. The back, the supports, and the shot clock ("overhead equipment") are out. And the ball must pass over the backboard to be out of bounds.

For the record, IANAR.

-jk

redick4pres
03-04-2009, 02:50 PM
From the 2009 NCAA rule book:



As I read it, the front, top, and sides of the backboard are in bounds. The back, the supports, and the shot clock ("overhead equipment") are out. And the ball must pass over the backboard to be out of bounds.

For the record, IANAR.

-jk


On a backboard that is round (youth leagues or backyard games), the ball is automatically out of bounds if the ball hits the top. On a square backboard (every other league), the ball can hit the sides, or top as long as it doesn't hit the supports, shot clock, or back of the board. That being said, I agree with the earlier post that the ball looked like it hit the shot clock live, but if you watch the replay and slowed it down, it never actually hit the clock.

blueprofessor
03-04-2009, 02:55 PM
On a backboard that is round (youth leagues or backyard games), the ball is automatically out of bounds if the ball hits the top. On a square backboard, the ball can his the sides, or top as long as it doesn't his the supports, shot clock, or back of the board. That being said, I agree with the earlier post that the ball looked like it hit the shot clock live, but if you watch the replay and slowed it down, it never actually hit the clock.

1. Did the ball hit anything that would render it out of bounds?
2.If the ball did not hit anything that rendered it out of bounds, did the ball's path render it out of bounds?

Thanks.:)
Blueprofessor:)

killerleft
03-04-2009, 02:58 PM
I don't know. I've always assumed, based on my break the plane idea, that if they bounce on the top of the backboard that the ball would be out of bounds.

Unless the rules have changed, the top of the backboard is NOT out of bounds. The clock IS out of bounds. The ball either never hit the clock, or the referees just missed the call.

FireOgilvie
03-04-2009, 03:02 PM
The ball definitely hit the shot clock. You can see the spin of the ball stop briefly as it hits. It's pretty obvious. If someone else has ESPN360 or the game recorded, the play happens with 15:22 or so left in the first half.

blueprofessor
03-04-2009, 05:34 PM
The 4 pt play occurred at 15:22, the technical on Hamilton was at 8:45 left to play in the first half. I doubt that is what Hamilton was complaining about.

He may have been complaining about what he perceived to be an illegal screen or some other on-court action.

Still, the bad-blood between Collins and Hamilton was the burning fuse.

Thanks for the correction.:)

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

hughgs
03-04-2009, 06:33 PM
Unless the rules have changed, the top of the backboard is NOT out of bounds. The clock IS out of bounds. The ball either never hit the clock, or the referees just missed the call.

OK, so then the clock/backboard rule follows the obstructed view idea. If the ball passes over an obstruction then it's considered a dead ball. But if the ball comes off the same side then it's live.

-jk
03-04-2009, 07:51 PM
OK, so then the clock/backboard rule follows the obstructed view idea. If the ball passes over an obstruction then it's considered a dead ball. But if the ball comes off the same side then it's live.

I'm pretty sure the clock itself is out of bounds.

Again, IANAR.

-jk