MBB: Duke 84, FSU 81 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Post your post-game thoughts in this thread.

[CDu]

Just a gutty, gutty game from our guys. Terrible first half, but what an effort in the second half. Great game from a variety of players. I'm so happy right now!

[KyDevilinIL]

Beat a very good FSU team despite missing two guys who log significant minutes.

Can win a share of the ACC title with a win Sunday. We've got a shot. Can't ask for much more than that, especially after what was going on in early Feburary.

(I'm assuming VT doesn't beat UNC tomorrow, of course.)

[OldSchool]

This was a huge, huge win. With Lance and Nolan out with injuries and all of our bigs with foul trouble, what a gutty achievement to get it done.

Congrats, Devils!

[kaufmjo]

Looking for some color from those who were able to watch it live - no TV coverage in northeast for this one. Nice end result though - however it appears we again were outshot on FG percentage.

[Chard]

Tough, gritty win. FSU is very good defensively. Duke hung 50 on them in the 2nd? That speaks volumes.

[grossbus]

that was some 2nd half. in many ways, better that the first game.

crowd did seem to "be there" in the 2nd half too.

[cruxer]

Great, gutsy win. The only reason FSU was in it at the end was Toney Douglas. That kid is a BEAST! I thought we defended every one of those 2nd half 3s pretty well (except the last one). Feels good that we dug deep and still overcame his performance.

And how special was Singler in the 2nd half? Even with the little hook move.....

-c

[grossbus]

"Looking for some color from those who were able to watch it live"

no turnovers in 2n half. kyle busts out in 2nd half. we limit their transition baskets in 2nd half. Gee big at the end.


oh, and EW did a good job on douglas, until the end when he went nuts from 3.

[Dar95]

Fantastic effort by everyone in the 2nd half. Huge shots by Singler early and G late. Solid play by McClure before fouling out (on a couple of sketchy calls). HUGE tip-outs by Zoubek to retain possession before G's go-ahead 3. Fantastic D and some huge plays by Williams. Solid effort from Scheyer (except the uncharacteristic missed FTs).

This is a game that they have lost the past few years. They took FSU's best shot - Douglas was ridiculous - and came away with a W despite injuries and foul trouble. Great job.

[CBDUKE]

What a great effort from this team. They continue to find a way to battle and win. I love this team, although I'm not sure my heart can take it.

[Newton_14]

BIG TIME WIN!!

Wow, what a great 2nd half. Facing all kinds of adversity, down 2 key players from the rotation, all the remaining bigs in foul trouble, Scheyer turns an ankle, Gerald looks as though he is gassed to the point of exhaustion, can't buy a basket, opponent making all kinds of shots, yet Duke rises to the occasion and gets it done. So again Wow!

Way to go Duke! That was an incredible win!

[RainingThrees]

It seems that Elliot always manages to make a 3 at a key point in our games.

[Teton Jack]

Great effort and a great win! Has anyone been a bigger cheap-foul magnet than Kyle Singler?

Congratulations for a strong ending to the regular season at home. Now, go take the Tar Heel scalp at the Dean Dome.

Teton Jack

[Billy Dat]

Senior Night first halves are often ugly - this was no different. Lance's injury added to that brew.

BUT, we definitely regrouped at halftime, amped up the D, started taking it to the hole more, and broke the seal on the 3 pointers. The big stats they kept showing were transition points where we gave up 14 in the first half and zero in the second half, and turnovers where we had, until very late, zero in the second half.

In the last few meaningful exchanges, FSU fans will likely complain about a no-call that could have sent Douglas to the line and what they will perceive to be a bs call putting Henderson on the line in the next exchange. At the time, we were up 1 and wound up, then, being up 3. It was a defining portion of the last 2 minutes.

Singler, G, Scheyer and Elliot were all very solid. Zoubek gave us something down the stretch. Douglas was his usual very very very good self. Alabi is a real player, as is Echuefu. I hope Lance isn't too hurt.

Big time win!

[Jumbo]

No Nolan. No Lance. Scheyer on a gimpy ankle. The entire frontcourt in foul trouble. Down at the half. Down again in the final two minutes.

But Duke fought, executed and prevailed. It wasn't our best night. It doesn't matter. We beat a good team in a tough situation. We now have one game in nine days, which hopefully will allow us to get healthy and keep improving. And that one game happens to be against our arch-rival with the chance to grab at least a share of the ACC regular season title.

I'm so proud of the way the guys have responded when things looked bleak. Bravo!

[jv001]

When we went to the motion offense in the 2nd half it seemed to liven us up. Jon really started it off with the two steals immediately. Kyle got it going in the 2nd half as well and I think that Gerald had 20 pts and 10 rebounds with several assists. Going to be hard to vote on MOTM. Zoubek contributed as well. Good win on Senior night. Go Dave, Greg and Marty. Go Duke!

[gwwilburn]

Great win, and it looks like Zoubek did his best to fill in. Too bad Paulus only had six, Dave fouled out, and Marty shot 0-1. But at least senior night ended with a W, something that has not happened in a while.

P.S. I had to gamecast this thing, so i wasn't able to watch it on TV. How will the WWLIS and other media outlets say the refs helped Duke win this thing?

[RainingThrees]

2 things we really need. To get healthy, especially Nolan. And for Elliot to make some freebies.

[77devil]

2 things we really need. To get healthy, especially Nolan. And for Elliot to make some freebies.

For those with video, was Lance on the bench in the 2nd half?

[mgtr]

Wow! I am impressed. Lets see, I said Zoubek was a disappointment and he made some great second half plays. I said play zone, and we played some of the best man-to-man this season. So, I am zero for two. Want to hear some good stock tips? :D

[flyingdutchdevil]

What a great effort from this team. They continue to find a way to battle and win. I love this team, although I'm not sure my heart can take it.

hahahahahaha
couldn't agree with you more. I need some hardcore lipitor right now.

G and Singler have consistently been great leaders for this team! Great team effort in the second half. Zoubs had some killer plays! Hopefully Lance is okay. Scheyer seems to be alright. Great D in second half, especially by new Cameron-Crazy-love E-will. That guy can play some defense. So damn happy right now!!

And, to end all posts from here on out, GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Duvall]

P.S. I had to gamecast this thing, so i wasn't able to watch it on TV. How will the WWLIS and other media outlets say the refs helped Duke win this thing?

Technical on Alabi in the second half. It was well-earned, but who needs logic?

[RainingThrees]

For those with video, was Lance on the bench in the 2nd half?

Yes. I've heard that it is a bad ankle sprain.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Wow! I am impressed. Lets see, I said Zoubek was a disappointment and he made some great second half plays. I said play zone, and we played some of the best man-to-man this season. So, I am zero for two. Want to hear some good stock tips? :D

Regarding stocks, let me help you out on this one - invest in everything! Recession? So what if AIG lost $62 billion. That's chump change!!!!! I heard that investment banks are real good stocks right now ;)

[Tappan Zee Devil]

For those with video, was Lance on the bench in the 2nd half?

So what happened to Lance? Is he badly hurt?

Jim

[trey]

This was definitely a TEAM victory. Every player contributed to this W. The team overcame many obstacles (good D and shooting by FSU, injuries, and the usual Senior Night jitters). The team just seems to have that special something right now. Thanks Seniors! GO DUKE!

[FireOgilvie]

Great effort and a great win! Has anyone been a bigger cheap-foul magnet than Kyle Singler?

Congratulations for a strong ending to the regular season at home. Now, go take the Tar Heel scalp at the Dean Dome.

Teton Jack

No kidding. Really strange foul by Alabi. Singler talks a LOT to the opposing team. He backs it up though.

[gwwilburn]

Technical on Alabi in the second half. It was well-earned, but who needs logic?
What I'm reading on ESPN,.com's comment section is that the refs sucked in the second half, which is a complaint that seems to coincide with any half in which duke outscores its opponent.

[Saratoga2]

My view is we won by being solid with the ball again. This lineup has very few turnovers and finishes well, although FT shooting could be better.

Solid production from our big three plus a very important offensive contribution from Elliot.

We lost the battle of the bigs to them but Zoubek at least provided some much needed size inside and with Thomas out early we needed it. Douglas is really an excellent player and we beat a very good team tonight.

Sole possession of second place and a chance to win the regular season. What could be better?

[Virginian]

Those two back-to-back steals by Scheyer to open the second half were huge. Got us immediately right back in the game, from which point we battled strong. Missed a lot of threes but our defense kept us in it.

Then in the closing minutes, when we needed a steal we got a steal. When we needed a basket we got a basket. When we needed to make a free throw, we made a free throw. Couldn't ask for more. But at the end, that rebound and length-of-court move by G to score that layup in transition and get the foul was, to me, the defining moment of the game. I was on the ceiling. So sweeeeeet! man!

[91.92.01DUKE]

Having not seen the game on T.V. what is our general sense of the officiating?

[JBDuke]

So what happened to Lance? Is he badly hurt?

Jim

Lance got a little tangled up with a teammate going after an errant pass and sprained his ankle when he landed. He was escorted off the court and into the locker room.

I've heard no update on his condition yet.

[Newton_14]

Great win, and it looks like Zoubek did his best to fill in. Too bad Paulus only had six, Dave fouled out, and Marty shot 0-1. But at least senior night ended with a W, something that has not happened in a while.

P.S. I had to gamecast this thing, so i wasn't able to watch it on TV. How will the WWLIS and other media outlets say the refs helped Duke win this thing?

Don't let stats fool you. Dave played a heck of a game and was key defensively, especially in the 2nd half before he got jobbed by the refs. Some of the calls on him were sickening.

Greg gave the team great energy, played tough D, drew a 5 second count, and knocked down 2 threes.

This was a tough tough win and Duke needed the contributions it got from every single guy.

[Duvall]

Sole possession of second place and a chance to win the regular season.

This cannot be emphasized enough. Despite sharing a league with The Greatest Show on Wood, Duke will go into the last game of the season with a chance to clinch a regular season title. Awesome.

[Virginian]

Having not seen the game on T.V. what is our general sense of the officiating?

I thought the officiating was okay. After all, they called two technicals on FS! Seriously, they didn't seem to miss much and didn't seem to really slow down the game much. It was funny in the first half when the announcers proclaimed that "free throws are keeping Duke in this game" and yet FS had been living on the free throw line -- at least half their points were free throws at that point.

Duke was in the bonus for much of the second half and still had two or three fouls to give, so some will see the officiating as lopsided, but to me it wasn't an obviously poorly called game. Both teams had multiple players in foul trouble.

[RoyalBlue08]

On the Radio Coach K seemed to think Lance was going to miss some time, calling his ankle badly sprained, but not broken. I hope it looks better in the morning...but at least Z played a great game, especially big minutes in the second half. Looks like we might need more out of him in the immediate future.

[gwwilburn]

Don't let stats fool you. Dave played a heck of a game and was key defensively, especially in the 2nd half before he got jobbed by the refs. Some of the calls on him were sickening.

Greg gave the team great energy, played tough D, drew a 5 second count, and knocked down 2 threes.

This was a tough tough win and Duke needed the contributions it got from every single guy.
Just what I was inferring from the box score with no live feed of the game available. This does not surprise me, though. Those two guys have more heart than the entire dean dome does when its filled to the brim with Tarhole faithful.

[moonpie23]

i knew this game was gonna be ugly.....gritty win with a different cast of players...i hope lance is ok, but the tone of k's voice was not re-assuring..


let's go rock the casbah sunday night...... !!!!!!! GO DUKE !

[urkdevil4]

Great win, Great 4 game stretch against 4 NCAA tournament teams!

As observation not criticism:

Elliot needs to keep his head still when shooting free throws; this would eliminate the flick in his shot

[captmojo]

Having not seen the game on T.V. what is our general sense of the officiating?

Grade C-. Equally bad for both sides.

Really bad fifth foul called on McClure. He was backing off away from a rebound, out of position - true but the contact came from the nole in position that was backing away into him. Another nole inside them both got the rebound. Dave's contact had no involvement in the play. Should have been a no-call.

Bad jump ball call in the last minute. Jon had the rebound, nole reaches in, hacking to get in, makes the tie-up, no foul called.

On the good side, a proper call of technical on Alabi, coming down after a dunk and rim swinging, only to put hard forced two arms directly into Kyle's head.

[OldSchool]

Elliot needs to keep his head still when shooting free throws; this would eliminate the flick in his shot

He also needs to square up better on his 3s.

[grossbus]

"Bad jump ball call in the last minute. Jon had the rebound, nole reaches in, hacking to get in, makes the tie-up, no foul called."

that was a horrible call. even if had been a legit tie up, the nole had his hands on the ball for about 1 second (or less).

[InSpades]

Paulus needs to take his shots more in the flow of the offense. Those back-to-back 3s were almost killers (thank god for Zoubs underneath).

We need to get healthy quickly... going into Chapel Hill at less than full strength is a scary proposition. Get well soon Nolan and Lance, we need you badly.

Great win though! Puts us in solid shape for a #2 seed in the NCAAs with the possibility for a lot more! Also nice to send the seniors out on a win, they deserve it. Gonna miss David McClure next year a lot.

[BD80]

On the Radio Coach K seemed to think Lance was going to miss some time...

Time for Miles to step up!

Zoubs knows he will be getting serious time, he MUST avoid the stupid fouls.

[mgtr]

I was happy to see four players in double figures. If we can keep that up (and get healthy and stay healthy), we should be OK.

[Greg_Newton]

Great, gutsy win to finish off a brutal stretch going into the Carolina game, although I worry Thomas' injury could be more trouble than some might think... he's come up with a lot of big tips, rebounds and defensive plays in the last few games. Zoubek hasn't proved he can play heavy minutes without getting into foul trouble and Plumlee still looks very uncomfortable when he gets in, especially when he gets the ball (he seems to always hesitate, then rush a jump shot)... I'm still very hopeful that he'll be part of a great tandem when his brother gets in town, but that's a conversation for another time. McClure is a great role player, but he's not really a starting big man. Here's hoping Lance's ankle is okay.

But boy, the more I see from Elliott the more I love him. He plays intense D, makes BIG time plays, and gives us some of that mojo and quiet swagger we've been needing. The only time he seems to make mistakes seems to be when he's a little too conscious of playing within himself and deferring to his elders, which is what you want from your freshmen anyway. I'm really looking forward to watching him play during the next couple of years (if he's around that long!). It's obviously premature, but I could easily see him being a 15-20ppg guy for us by this time next year if G leaves.

[Rudy]

Lance twisted an ankle going for a steal at halfcourt late in the first half and didn't return.

Final momentum turn with about a minute or so left was when Douglas missed a 3 and Zoubek tipped the rebound long to Henderson, who drove the length of the court making the layup while being fouled. He converted the FT to put Duke up by 6.

McClure had his usual gutty game and made a couple of 12 foot jumpers. Fouled out and the crazies did their Dave McClure cheer.

Exciting game.

[dukestheheat]

This was just a GREAT game for Duke versus a team that is really large, athletic and built for defense! I am so proud we pulled that game out, and on an emotional senior night, it means even more.

We hit those free throws in the second half, and really pushed up two notches on defense and on offense, Duke attacked the hoop. Put those three together in virtually ANY game, and that is a prescription for a Duke victory.

dukestheheat.

[Greg_Newton]

Wow... and congrats to Duke as a program for tying Kansas tonight for the most college basketball wins in a decade, ever. Wouldn't it be perfect if the season finale at Carolina put them over the top!

[Rudy]

Grade C-. Equally bad for both sides.

Really bad fifth foul called on McClure. He was backing off away from a rebound, out of position - true but the contact came from the nole in position that was backing away into him. Another nole inside them both got the rebound. Dave's contact had no involvement in the play. Should have been a no-call.

Bad jump ball call in the last minute. Jon had the rebound, nole reaches in, hacking to get in, makes the tie-up, no foul called.

On the good side, a proper call of technical on Alabi, coming down after a dunk and rim swinging, only to put hard forced two arms directly into Kyle's head.
There was the elbow to the head call on FSU when the wind from the player's elbow blew Greg down. (Great draw, Greg.)

A couple of obvious travels by FSU players missed.

[UrinalCake]

I remember in 1999 when duke was running roughshod over everybody, a reporter asked Coach K if it concerned him that they hadn't played in any close games. His response was basically yes, but that he'd still rather win games by a lot. This year is like the exact opposite, we've now won four really close games in a row, and I thnk this experience will be a huge asset come tournament time. I can't think of a recent season where we've won this many close games late in the season.

[mike88]

There was the elbow to the head call on FSU when the wind from the player's elbow blew Greg down. (Great draw, Greg.)



I believe the call was for swinging the elbow. If done flagrantly, referees are instructed to make a call whether or not it "connects"

[beltwayBD]

Wonderful tonight, especially for the seniors. Wish I could have been there to see them off. My DVR crapped out in the first five minutes, so I missed the intros.

Wonderful tip-outs by Zoub!

Amazing play given that our depth disappeared with Nolan and Lance injured. Get well soon guys!

Gerald at the end was off the hook. That final lay up was amazing.

E-Will continues to give us sweet minutes. He will be an incredible contributor next year.

Whew. Now let's woop the Spazbrough and the T-holes on Sunday!

[blueprofessor]

Great win--Revenge for 68-67 and several missed Duke shots at game's end on February 4, 2006, at CIS.







Best regards--Blueprofessor:D:D

[jpfrizzle]

WOW what a game!!

Saw some beautiful plays!!


Go DUKE ! ! ! !

[BaysideDevil]

Does anyone have a link to the video of the technical on the FSU player?

[mehmattski]

Great win--Revenge for 68-67 and several missed Duke shots at game's end on February 4, 2006, at CIS.







Best regards--Blueprofessor:D:D

I, for one, will not miss Ryan "I lead with my elbows" Reid.

[Acymetric]

Huge game for our guys, they fought so hard for this win and they earned it. G had a fantastic game (21, 10, and 5, with no fouls, not sure about turnovers but he did have at least a couple). It hurts us to lose Lance right now, we could have used him against unc, but we have 4 other guys we can use in the post, and I trust them to hold things down for us.

I thought the crowd kind of sucked the first half, and I was worried the energy would never pick up, but I thought both the students and the season ticket holders really picked it up in the second half and gave the team a boost.

I also thought the refs sucked today, the whole time. There were some really awful no-calls, and some really weak fouls that WERE called. I've noticed the same problem in other (non-Duke) ACC games and I'm really starting to question whether we need to make some serious changes to the ACC officiating crews, but maybe its just me. I know Williams got hacked hard driving at one point, and I thought they missed a several other fouls under the basket, especially when FSU players were jumping onto our backs when our guys went for offensive boards. There were so many blown calls I can't even list them all.

That said, this was a fantastic way to send out the seniors, though I felt for Dave when he picked up his fifth.

[OldPhiKap]

Big thanks to the seniors. You have all made us proud.

Get the Holes.

Win the conference.

Win it all.

Leave as legends.

[91devil]

What an outstanding game! Both schools played so well. Have we been involved in a better, all-around, forty-minute game this year?

[ncexnyc]

Here's another game that we went down to the wire and came away with the win.

That line-up change is looking more and more like the turning point in our season.

Jon continues to play heady ball and keeps turnovers to a minimum and Elliot gives us a bonafide fourth scorer on the court and to top it off he's capable of creating his own shot. Elliot had several nice dunks tonight along with a clutch 3.

Kyle continues his hardnosed play, nothing seems to bother him.

G seemed to fall in love with his outside shot a little to much tonight, but he still managed to come-up big at just the right time.

David plays stellar D, if only we could get him to shoot the ball when he's wide open. I really don't think he's that bad of a shooter and taking the open shot in the flow of the offense is better than waiting for another player to get open and then having to force the issue especially as the shot clock winds down.

Brian had a decent game. If we could only get this type of play from him night after night we would be ok.


Again, we beat a very good team who had their top player at the peak of his game.

[Greg_Newton]

Ha, anyone else catch the highlights of the game on Sportscenter? It was nice to see the anchors poking fun at Echefe for the dirty foul and for "somehow looking surprised" at getting T'd up, rather than spinning it towards the usual Duke-gets-all-the-calls garbage. It just never ceases to amaze me how much whining you can find allll over the internet after any given Duke win.

[Kfanarmy]

Grade C-. Equally bad for both sides.




There was a hard shove in the back on a FSU player about midway through the second half that I was glad wasn't seen, as it deserved a T. I was watching on my computer, so the screen was too small to see who it was, but it was a shove near the top of the key that sent the FSU player flailing...I do think the ACC officials may have gotten the message on all the elbows being thrown lately, as they seemed to catch all of them tonight.

[Ian]

Prior to the Scheyer to the point/EW to the starting lineup move, we averaged 13.5 TO per game, since the move, we've averaged 8.8 TO per game.

That's probably the difference between going 5-0 and 3-2 or 2-3.

[davekay1971]

Wow. Echoing sentiments already posted, this team has all kinds of guts. This win streak has been all about gritty, tough wins against teams that are playing inspired basketball. Great, great wins, all of them. And it's all been about mental toughness.

As an aside, add Toney Douglas to the list of players who can consider themselves screwed if Beaker wins ACC POY. What a great player!

[MChambers]

There was the elbow to the head call on FSU when the wind from the player's elbow blew Greg down. (Great draw, Greg.)

A couple of obvious travels by FSU players missed.

There was the play with less than 4 to go when Williams was dribbling near midcourt trying to start a fast break and got hammered down by two FSU players, no foul called (although Duke did get the ball out of bounds).

[jv001]

Going into this game I was wondering how we would perform against a team like Florida State. They're long, athletic, shot blockers and have a great point guard(Douglas). Overall we played well and I am thinking that this team can make adjustments during the game better than teams in the recent past. We lost the rebound battle by only 3 (39-36). We had 10 offensive rebs to 9 for Fl St. We had 13 assists with Gerald leading the way with 5. Speaking of Gerald, 21 pts, 10 boards, 5 assists and 2 to's. Douglas showed why he may win the Player of the year award; 27 pts, 3 rebs, 7 assist, 1 to. He reminds me of Chauncey Billups. But we came away with a "big" win. Go Duke!

[blueprofessor]

Going into this game I was wondering how we would perform against a team like Florida State. They're long, athletic, shot blockers and have a great point guard(Douglas). Overall we played well and I am thinking that this team can make adjustments during the game better than teams in the recent past. We lost the rebound battle by only 3 (39-36). We had 10 offensive rebs to 9 for Fl St. Go Duke!

While the Seminoles were unable to stop Henderson down the stretch, some will point to Alabi's technical as a turning point in the close contest. However, FSU's head coach was not in the mood to play the blame game after the loss.

"You can point to that if you want to, I think we just didn't do a good enough job defending them," Hamilton said. "I have a whole lot I could say. That play was a big play, there is no doubt about that. I saw it differently. … That was a key play during that particular time, I wish we could have avoided it and maybe the outcome would have been a little different."

"That is college basketball," Hamilton added. "You have three guys out there officiating, they saw it one way - one guy saw it one way - and unfortunately we were the ones that came out on the wrong end of that.


Sounds like excuse finding to me,esp. the comment by Hamilton,"I have a whole lot I could say.":mad::mad:

How egregious was the Alabi action drawing the T?

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

[MChambers]

While the Seminoles were unable to stop Henderson down the stretch, some will point to Alabi's technical as a turning point in the close contest. However, FSU's head coach was not in the mood to play the blame game after the loss.

"You can point to that if you want to, I think we just didn't do a good enough job defending them," Hamilton said. "I have a whole lot I could say. That play was a big play, there is no doubt about that. I saw it differently. … That was a key play during that particular time, I wish we could have avoided it and maybe the outcome would have been a little different."

"That is college basketball," Hamilton added. "You have three guys out there officiating, they saw it one way - one guy saw it one way - and unfortunately we were the ones that came out on the wrong end of that.


Sounds like excuse finding to me,esp. the comment by Hamilton,"I have a whole lot I could say.":mad::mad:

How egregious was the Alabi action drawing the T?

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

I thought Hamilton and Douglas were both reserved in their remarks and respect them for it. The Alabi action wasn't all that egregious. He hit Kyle on the head when he came down after hanging on the rim (to avoid falling on Kyle). Might have been unintentional, but I don't think so. Nothing like Bell's elbow last Saturday, however.

[blueprofessor]

I thought Hamilton and Douglas were both reserved in their remarks and respect them for it. The Alabi action wasn't all that egregious. He hit Kyle on the head when he came down after hanging on the rim (to avoid falling on Kyle). Might have been unintentional, but I don't think so. Nothing like Bell's elbow last Saturday, however.

did not in any way suggest it.
However,Hamilton's comment," I have a lot I could say" , did remind me of Gary Williams' implying the refs caused his loss.
This is not typical of Hamilton, but this was a huge,huge game for the FSU team and fandom.

Hamilton did go into detail re only one ref's seeing the foul....:confused:

Thanks for your opinion & description.Alabi's handthrusting demonstrated premeditation,IMO.

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

[Kfanarmy]

It looked intentional at live speed. He bent his arm up while coming down...not making an effort to gain balance but to hit someone on the head. On replay it was obviously intentional.

did not in any way suggest it.
However,Hamilton's comment," I have a lot I could say" , did remind me of Gary Williams' implying the refs caused his loss.
This is not typical of Hamilton, but this was a huge,huge game for the FSU team and fandom.

Hamilton did go into detail re only one ref's seeing the foul....:confused:

Thanks for your opinion & description.Alabi's handthrusting demonstrated premeditation,IMO.

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

[should_be_working]

There was the play with less than 4 to go when Williams was dribbling near midcourt trying to start a fast break and got hammered down by two FSU players, no foul called (although Duke did get the ball out of bounds).

Yeah, that was a horrible no call. I sat there in disbelief; shaking my head that there wasn't a call, I thought the refs were watching another game there for a minute.

[blueprofessor]

It looked intentional at live speed. He bent his arm up while coming down...not making an effort to gain balance but to hit someone on the head. On replay it was obviously intentional.

Link: Read to believe::cool::eek:
http://floridastate.rivals.com/forum.asp?sid=1061&fid=1080&style=2

Examples----Ref JD Collins hates Hamilton and was looking to get him; Singler is a I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. that Reid should have elbowed into the 3rd row; Scheyer is a crybaby; FSU must leave the conference ;FSU was 10 points better and will crush next game;refs stole it;Duke gets all calls like Scheyer's walk at VT; and much more for your reading pleasure.

May I suggest that a little success has gone to their heads?:D

Best regards--Blue"I have to go to teach class today---where is security?" Professor:D

[CDu]

How egregious was the Alabi action drawing the T?

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

I think it was a borderline call. Alabi definitely knew where Singler was, definitely came down with force on Singler's shoulder/back (not his head, as some have said, but that's irrelevant). Singler was sort of under him, but was facing away and going for the ball. Alabi could have held onto the rim and waited for Singler to clear out. Instead, he dropped down on Singer and slammed his arms into him.

I don't think you could conclusively argue either way, but I lean toward the move being unacceptable. The officials felt there was enough intent or excessive force (and that was my gut reaction as well), and thus they called the tech. Certainly worse has been done that went uncalled. Certainly less has been done that has been called.

[Chard]

I think it was a borderline call. Alabi definitely knew where Singler was, definitely came down with force on Singler's shoulder/back (not his head, as some have said, but that's irrelevant). Singler was sort of under him, but was facing away and going for the ball. Alabi could have held onto the rim and waited for Singler to clear out. Instead, he dropped down on Singer and slammed his arms into him.

I have to disagree that it was borderline. He did hit Singler on the head with both hands/arms and then shoved Singlers arm away in one motion. Singler was holding one arm up in a legal defensive position and that may have rubbed Alabi the wrong way but that is no excuse. Absolutely unnecessary by Alabi. Another play that doesn't belong in the ACC.

[devildownunder]

Link: Read to believe::cool::eek:
http://floridastate.rivals.com/forum.asp?sid=1061&fid=1080&style=2

Examples----Ref JD Collins hates Hamilton and was looking to get him; Singler is a I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. that Reid should have elbowed into the 3rd row; Scheyer is a crybaby; FSU must leave the conference ;FSU was 10 points better and will crush next game;refs stole it;Duke gets all calls like Scheyer's walk at VT; and much more for your reading pleasure.

May I suggest that a little success has gone to their heads?:D



What success?

[DukieInKansas]

I think it was a borderline call. Alabi definitely knew where Singler was, definitely came down with force on Singler's shoulder/back (not his head, as some have said, but that's irrelevant). Singler was sort of under him, but was facing away and going for the ball. Alabi could have held onto the rim and waited for Singler to clear out. Instead, he dropped down on Singer and slammed his arms into him.

I don't think you could conclusively argue either way, but I lean toward the move being unacceptable. The officials felt there was enough intent or excessive force (and that was my gut reaction as well), and thus they called the tech. Certainly worse has been done that went uncalled. Certainly less has been done that has been called.

To me, it was that he made no attempt to move his arms to avoid Singler that got him - whether he hit Singler on the head or shoulders. It appeared, on the Sportscenter replay, that he had his hands in loose fists. If he had had them open in the "typical palm outward I'm trying to avoid landing on the guy underneath me" stance, he might have gotten away with it. I thought it was an appropriate call.

[davekay1971]

Alabi looked down, directly at Singler, who was turned away, and brought his arms down with force right on him. It was intentional, and an action that ought not be tolerated in basketball, plain and simple. I don't think it was worthy of an ejection, but it was definitely an intentional foul. The refs got that one right.

My feelings about the "Duke gets all the calls" whining vary between a reaction of "whatever, that's whining from people frustrated by losing to us, no big deal", to getting, as I am right now, really irritated by it. The refs blow calls both ways, and I think you really have to be extremely biased to think that Duke gets all the calls at this point. Every game has a prime example or two of the refs blowing or missing a call in a way that favors Duke's opponent. And every game has a prime example or two of the refs messing up in our favor. People need to get over it.

It doesn't help when the coaches egg it on. Hamilton isn't a whiner, and he probably, at the time, didn't see anything intentional in Alabi's actions. He probably shouldn't have said anything at all until he got a chance to see the replay. Once he does, I expect he'll see why it was called and tell Alabi to avoid that kind of play. But as far as the FSU fan base is concerned, the damage is done from what he's already said. Unless he comes out and publicly says, "yes, when I saw the replay, it was the right call" (which he won't do), his fanbase will feel validated in their feeling of being victimized.

[NSDukeFan]

Grade C-. Equally bad for both sides.

Really bad fifth foul called on McClure. He was backing off away from a rebound, out of position - true but the contact came from the nole in position that was backing away into him. Another nole inside them both got the rebound. Dave's contact had no involvement in the play. Should have been a no-call.

Bad jump ball call in the last minute. Jon had the rebound, nole reaches in, hacking to get in, makes the tie-up, no foul called.

On the good side, a proper call of technical on Alabi, coming down after a dunk and rim swinging, only to put hard forced two arms directly into Kyle's head.

I would have to agree with you about the call on Dave. Sad way to end a senior night.
Shouldn't there be a youtube video up now showing how Scheyer travelled on the play and Duke always gets the calls?
Agree, again the technical was correct, but could have gone either way, but again Duke gets all the calls.

Great, gutty win. Nice to see contributions from Z. Nice stretch going into tourney time and I think there might be another game this weekend. Douglas is a great player and certainly deserves ACC POY consideration and they are big inside. We handled it well.

[CDu]

I have to disagree that it was borderline. He did hit Singler on the head with both hands/arms and then shoved Singlers arm away in one motion. Singler was holding one arm up in a legal defensive position and that may have rubbed Alabi the wrong way but that is no excuse. Absolutely unnecessary by Alabi. Another play that doesn't belong in the ACC.

I'm pretty sure Alabi hit Singler on the shoulder/back and not the head. Not that that makes a huge difference (the intent, if there, would have been the same).

The only reason it's borderline is because you can make the argument he was protecting himself coming down. I don't personally think that's the case, but it's not definitive in my opinion. And as I said, I agreed with the call.

[CDu]

To me, it was that he made no attempt to move his arms to avoid Singler that got him - whether he hit Singler on the head or shoulders. It appeared, on the Sportscenter replay, that he had his hands in loose fists. If he had had them open in the "typical palm outward I'm trying to avoid landing on the guy underneath me" stance, he might have gotten away with it. I thought it was an appropriate call.

I agree that it was an appropriate call. I'm just saying that the argument can be made (though I disagree with it) that he was protecting himself coming down. I don't ersonally think that was Alabi's intent (I think he was trying to get away with a shove on Singler), but I can see the argument.

[blueprofessor]

What success?

FSU's best season since 1993-94.One man's bread is another's cake.:D

BTW, had a ton of fun soaring 30 years ago in a glider(sailplane) near Canberra with those magnificent 20,000 feet high cumulus clouds giving me the strongest thermals(in vertical speed,feet per minute) I have ever experienced.Some 10 hour rides up to 19,000 feet altitude with oxygen.
Beautiful country and fine,authentic people!:)

Best regards--Blueprof:)

[Teton Jack]

Sorry, but I can't see how any one could see Alibi's technical foul as anything but a good call. Basketball rules don't call for the moral relativism expressed on this board by a few.

Teton Jack

[CDu]

Sorry, but I can't see how any one could see Alibi's technical foul as anything but a good call. Basketball rules don't call for the moral relativism expressed on this board by a few.

Teton Jack

I don't think anyone said it wasn't a good call. I said it was a borderline call, but the right one (i.e., a good call). Perhaps people are misinterpreting the meaning of borderline.

[Teton Jack]

My apologies for a hasty response.

[dukeman28428]

:) The seniors, fans and all were like old times in Cameron last night. It was hot, loud, and the team had that "toughness" and will to win that I have not seen in recent years. I love this team and thanks to the coaches, players, students, and fans for stepping up and being DUKE

[blueprofessor]

:) The seniors, fans and all were like old times in Cameron last night. It was hot, loud, and the team had that "toughness" and will to win that I have not seen in recent years. I love this team and thanks to the coaches, players, students, and fans for stepping up and being DUKE

in a little detail? Wondering about the noise and continuity of fan support throughout the game.What about upper level?People standing most of game? Tension high? Anything funny?Did the fans make a difference?Anything else?:D
It is a thrill for those who cannot attend to hear these and any other details.

While distant in geography, we are one heart with you!:)

Thanks.
Best regards---Blueprofessor:)

[jimsumner]

What success? Seriously?

After a decade wandering in the NIT wilderness, FSU is nationally ranked (on merit) and appears to be about a 5 seed.

Their coach likely will be ACC COY; K said last night he voted for Hamilton for national COY on his National Basketball Coaches ballot. On merit,

Douglas will be defensive POY and maybe ACC POY. On merit.

Want to compare Clemson scores? UNC scores?

Do you really want to see the 'Noles in Duke's bracket next week?

They have a darn good basketball team and Duke's sweep of the season-series is one of the better things on Duke's resume.

Let's put it another way. I think Florida State's basketball team is better on the national level than Florida State's football team.

I'd call that success.

[Wander]

Their coach likely will be ACC COY

This would be a complete joke.

I get it, they exceeded preseason expectations. Would anyone care to guess as to why their preseason expectations were so low in the first place? I'll give everyone a hint: it wasn't because of a lack of talent.

It would be like giving St. John's an NCAA bid because they're merely below average instead of embarassingly bad. It would be like giving Jurassic Park 3 an Oscar because, hey, it wasn't quite as terrible as I was expecting. It would be like declaring Japan the winner of World War II because they lasted a bit longer than they should have.

You get the idea. Or instead, we can give it to a guy like Purnell, who, you know, actually deserves it.

[Duvall]

Their coach likely will be ACC COY; K said last night he voted for Hamilton for national COY on his National Basketball Coaches ballot.


Wait, Hamilton for national coach of the year? An unkind cut, Coach.

[crimsonandblue]

This would be a complete joke.

I get it, they exceeded preseason expectations. Would anyone care to guess as to why their preseason expectations were so low in the first place? I'll give everyone a hint: it wasn't because of a lack of talent.

It would be like giving St. John's an NCAA bid because they're merely below average instead of embarassingly bad. It would be like giving Jurassic Park 3 an Oscar because, hey, it wasn't quite as terrible as I was expecting. It would be like declaring Japan the winner of World War II because they lasted a bit longer than they should have.

You get the idea. Or instead, we can give it to a guy like Purnell, who, you know, actually deserves it.

FSU beat Clemson home and home, did they not?

[Wander]

FSU beat Clemson home and home, did they not?

I'm not arguing that FSU isn't a good team. In fact, I would pick Douglas as ACC POY today.

What I'm saying is that if you want to give out an award for "Most Surprising Team," then fine, give out that award... but don't call it Coach of the Year.

Dino Gaudio would be another good choice, btw.

[moonpie23]

I thought Hamilton and Douglas were both reserved in their remarks and respect them for it. The Alabi action wasn't all that egregious. He hit Kyle on the head when he came down after hanging on the rim (to avoid falling on Kyle). Might have been unintentional, but I don't think so. Nothing like Bell's elbow last Saturday, however.

i respectfully disagree.....to me, it was an obvious "i-just-dunked-on-you-now-get-out-of-my-way-so-i-can-celebrate-my-thugness!" hit...

nothing UN-intentional about it...

[jimsumner]

Let me see if I understand.

Clemson finished third last season at 10-6 and advances to the ACC Tournament title game. They lose their second, fourth, and ninth leading scorers.

FSU finished tied for seventh at 7-9 and loses in the ACC quarterfinals. They lose their second, third, and fourth leading scorers.

At this point Clemson and FSU are tied for fourth in the league.

And Purnell has done a better job than Hamilton.

Right.

[Wander]

And Purnell has done a better job than Hamilton.


That's correct.

My whole point is that there is no way FSU should have finished 7-9 last year. They had too much talent for that, and the only thing holding them back was poor coaching. By using their improvement from last year as an argument, you're essentially rewarding Hamilton for doing a terrible coaching job last year. There's really nothing special at all about what Hamilton is doing at FSU - it's largely his fault they haven't been to the tournament in so long in the first place.

It's like that commonly held quip about political debates - the guy who "wins" is often declared the winner not because he was a better debater, but because he lowered expectations by acting look a fool beforehand.

[jimsumner]

Wake Forest didn't even make the NIT last season. Surely, a vote for Gaudio this year is a reward for the lousy job he did last year.

Al Skinner is likewise excluded from consideration. Surely, they were better than a 4-12 team last season.

This would leave only Roy Williams, Mike Krzyzewski, and Oliver Purnell as eligible for this year's award.

Sorry. It's coach of the year, not coach of any consecutive-five-year-period. Hamilton has a rotation with two seniors (Douglas and Echefu), a junior reserve (Reid), and a bunch of underclassmen, including such household names as Derwin Kitchen, Luke Loucks, and Deividas Dulkys and they are playing at a very high level right now.

BTW, anyone have Toney Douglas on their short-list for ACC POY four months ago? Does the coaching staff not deserve some credit here?

We'll have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, Hamilton has done more than enough to merit his place at the top of the ACC COY discussion.

[tbyers11]

That's correct.

My whole point is that there is no way FSU should have finished 7-9 last year. They had too much talent for that, and the only thing holding them back was poor coaching. By using their improvement from last year as an argument, you're essentially rewarding Hamilton for doing a terrible coaching job last year. There's really nothing special at all about what Hamilton is doing at FSU - it's largely his fault they haven't been to the tournament in so long in the first place.

It's like that commonly held quip about political debates - the guy who "wins" is often declared the winner not because he was a better debater, but because he lowered expectations by acting look a fool beforehand.

Coach of the year is not (or at least shouldn't be) a cumulative award. IMO, because Hamilton under-coached his teams in previous years should have no bearing on the 2009 COY. I agree with Jim Sumner that Hamilton had less to work with starting the year than Purnell did.

FSU had Douglas and a bunch of young, untested players. Only Echefu and Reid also made significant contributions last year Clemson returned Rivers and Booker (along with Stitt, Oglesby, Sykes, Potter).

I've got to go with Hamilton, especially since they beat Clemson twice and will likely finish with at least the same ACC record.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

in a little detail? Wondering about the noise and continuity of fan support throughout the game.What about upper level?People standing most of game? Tension high? Anything funny?Did the fans make a difference?Anything else?:D
It is a thrill for those who cannot attend to hear these and any other details.

While distant in geography, we are one heart with you!:)

Thanks.
Best regards---Blueprofessor:)
Blueprofessor, others will tell you their analysis of the play. I'll tell you about the setting.

The atmosphere in Cameron continued to change throughout the night even as the team's performance took twists and turns. It was hot, but not as hot as the night we played Carolina since outside temperatures outside were pretty cold. Condensation on the floor posed no problems last night.

In addition to the emerging, developing five forward lineup, I sense that Coach K may be evolving a bit, too. He's becoming more directly involved with the crowd, almost as if coaching them to cheer and support. He continues to be very involved with coaching the team while they are on the floor, something he's commented on in the past as indicative of more inexperience in the players or evolving system of play.

I continue to notice and be a bit concerned how many were in Cameron for the first time. It's apparent in how many don't know their seat locations as well as the number and types of pictures they are taking. This is a trend that began slowly a few years ago, but is very strong by the end of this season. I know from conversation with some folk in the athletic department that more season ticket holders are selling their tickets to others, especially fans of the opposing teams; it's not just my imagination or casual observation. This trend of more opposing fans in Our House would certainly undermine the atmosphere we try to maintain and hold so dear.

On a comical note, there were four Florida State fans sitting upstairs in a row right at the brass rail. These men were as colorful as they were stereotypical. Two wore tanks tops on various combinations of the Florida State colors and ball caps pulled down low. Considering the amount of pleasure they seemed to get from their location, one could hope they paid dearly for the privilege.

Senior night is always special. It seemed appropriate that the Pitchforks sang the national anthem since the organization has continued to be at Duke for so very long. (Maybe the oldest a cappella group on campus?)

And for watzone's benefit, I'll mention that the exiting traffic pattern created by the paid security people was yet another new one.

This team is still developing in a new direction. It's amazing and inspiring how they continue to grow and improve despite the resistance they encounter all around them. Strong chemistry is a major source of their strength; you could see it in their faces throughout the night, but most especially when they all came out for the seniors to have their say. I'm concerned about the number and kinds of injuries, but if any team could overcome such obstacles, it is this team.

[crimsonandblue]

Well, I think it's valid to question whether Hamilton is only now finally getting the level of play he could have been getting in years prior. But I don't see a lot of evidence that he had some formidable lineup that was wasting its upside.

Still, the COY award uniformly is handed to surprising performers that lurch unexpectedly into conference or national honors. It's just the nature of the beast. A coach could do a fabulous job in dragging a team to mediocrity (see e.g. Doc Sadler at Nebraska), but he's not going to win any significant honors.

To win coach of the year, you have to either be a middling to poor team "coached up" into conference contention or a good team that dominates unexpectedly.

[Wander]

But I don't see a lot of evidence that he had some formidable lineup that was wasting its upside.


He had the #1 recruiting class a while back - 2002, 2003, something like that. He got... wait for it.... ZERO tournament bids out of that class!

Not only is that bad coaching, it's HISTORICALLY bad coaching!

[blueprofessor]

Blueprofessor, others will tell you their analysis of the play. I'll tell you about the setting.

The atmosphere in Cameron continued to change throughout the night even as the team's performance took twists and turns. It was hot, but not as hot as the night we played Carolina since outside temperatures outside were pretty cold. Condensation on the floor posed no problems last night.

In addition to the emerging, developing five forward lineup, I sense that Coach K may be evolving a bit, too. He's becoming more directly involved with the crowd, almost as if coaching them to cheer and support. He continues to be very involved with coaching the team while they are on the floor, something he's commented on in the past as indicative of more inexperience in the players or evolving system of play.

I continue to notice and be a bit concerned how many were in Cameron for the first time. It's apparent in how many don't know their seat locations as well as the number and types of pictures they are taking. This is a trend that began slowly a few years ago, but is very strong by the end of this season. I know from conversation with some folk in the athletic department that more season ticket holders are selling their tickets to others, especially fans of the opposing teams; it's not just my imagination or casual observation. This trend of more opposing fans in Our House would certainly undermine the atmosphere we try to maintain and hold so dear.

On a comical note, there were four Florida State fans sitting upstairs in a row right at the brass rail. These men were as colorful as they were stereotypical. Two wore tanks tops on various combinations of the Florida State colors and ball caps pulled down low. Considering the amount of pleasure they seemed to get from their location, one could hope they paid dearly for the privilege.

Senior night is always special. It seemed appropriate that the Pitchforks sang the national anthem since the organization has continued to be at Duke for so very long. (Maybe the oldest a cappella group on campus?)

And for watzone's benefit, I'll mention that the exiting traffic pattern created by the paid security people was yet another new one.

This team is still developing in a new direction. It's amazing and inspiring how they continue to grow and improve despite the resistance they encounter all around them. Strong chemistry is a major source of their strength; you could see it in their faces throughout the night, but most especially when they all came out for the seniors to have their say. I'm concerned about the number and kinds of injuries, but if any team could overcome such obstacles, it is this team.

I,too, yearn for those times when there were no fans of other schools visible.
I recall nearly forty years ago when Duke played Virginia. Barry Parkhill hit a basket and in a very silent Cameron, a lone voice near the window to the upper right side from where the band sits now yelled,"Go,Wahoos!" I was stunned and turned to a pal and asked,"How in the hell did he get in here?"

I cannot stand the idea that our fans are selling their tix to opposing fans.
Senior night 3 years ago was nearly ruined when my wife,son, and I sat at the rail to the right of the Duke bench thanks to a friend who swapped tix so I could have 3 seats together, by a UNC student(Robinson scholar) who had sneaked in wearing Duke clothes and who proceeded to stand right in front of us and turn around and woof at us .Of course we lost to TH and UNC and had to endure his post-game stare-down.:mad:

I realize that the cost for seats is dear and I am not condemning others who might sell---hopefully they are put in the hands of Duke fans.:D

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

[jimsumner]

"Still, the COY award uniformly is handed to surprising performers that lurch unexpectedly into conference or national honors"

Absolutely correct. Mike Krzyzewski was ACC COY in 1984, coaching a team that went 7-7 in conference play. In 1992 he did not win the award for a team that went 14-2 in the league and was ranked number one nationally every single week of the season; Pat Kennedy was ACC COY that year.

This phenomena exists in all sports, at all levels. Maybe it isn't fair and it's certainly kept K from some such awards. But complaining about it is about as useful as complaining that beauty pageants tend to favor attractive women.

[jimsumner]

"He had the #1 recruiting class a while back - 2002, 2003, something like that. He got... wait for it.... ZERO tournament bids out of that class!

Not only is that bad coaching, it's HISTORICALLY bad coaching! "

Perhaps, perhaps not. I don't recall FSU having a number one class but they may have and if they did that certainly means they should have been great. Look at Duke's consensus number one high school class of 2005 and how they've dominated.

But totally irrelevant to the question at hand. Maybe Hamilton is a better coach now than he was in 2005. Maybe he's learned. Should he or any other coach be permanently eliminated from COY consideration because they didn't always have a COY-quality season?

What an absurd standard. He was a lousy coach once, so he must be a lousy coach forever. Like that young Duke coach who lost more games in consecutive seasons than any coach in Duke history back in 1982 and 1983. Whatever happened to him?

[Wander]

This phenomena exists in all sports, at all levels. Maybe it isn't fair and it's certainly kept K from some such awards. But complaining about it is about as useful as complaining that beauty pageants tend to favor attractive women.

I'm not saying that the award should strictly be given to who is the best coach in the conference every year - otherwise, no one but K or Roy would ever win.

What I am asking is that, can we at least give it to a coach who isn't awful? Give it to a coach whose team does better than expected, fine, but does that really mean we have to throw out every single other factor? Give it to BC's Al Skinner if you must give it to someone who's team is doing surprisingly well.

[pfrduke]

He had the #1 recruiting class a while back - 2002, 2003, something like that. He got... wait for it.... ZERO tournament bids out of that class!

Not only is that bad coaching, it's HISTORICALLY bad coaching!


There's no way that's true. The best class FSU had was in 2003, when they landed Von Wafer and Alexander Johnson. That class was very good (top 10 nationally), but far from #1. It trailed Maryland in the rankings (I think this was the highest class Gary ever landed), as the Terps brought in Jones, Ibekwe, Strawberry, Fofana (ranked #77, transferred), and Will Bowers.

FSU has had some talent in the past, and arguably underachieved. For a couple years running, they seemed to be one win on the wrong side of the tourney (and, IMO, were more deserving than teams that got in). That Al Thornton never made the tournament is a true shame. But it's not like Hamilton was taking consensus pre-season top 25 teams and repeatedly putting up .500 records.

[Wander]

Perhaps, perhaps not. I don't recall FSU having a number one class but they may have and if they did that certainly means they should have been great. Look at Duke's consensus number one high school class of 2005 and how they've dominated.

What an absurd standard. He was a lousy coach once, so he must be a lousy coach forever. Like that young Duke coach who lost more games in consecutive seasons than any coach in Duke history back in 1982 and 1983. Whatever happened to him?

Please stop making comparisons that you know are absolutely nowhere near similar or relevant. Hamilton has been at FSU for, what, 7 years now? Coach K had, what, 3, 4, 5 tournaments on his resume by that point in his career? Including that one year in 1986 that was pretty decent.

It's harder to coach at FSU than at Duke, sure, but the disparity in success is far too huge for that to overturn the much simpler explanation that Hamilton just isn't a good coach at the ACC level.

[Wander]

There's no way that's true.

http://rivalshoops.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=910&CID=188535

I can't find the "Final top 25" list that the first paragraph alludes to, but I don't think FSU was bumped from the top spot in it.

[jimsumner]

"Coach K had, what, 3, 4, 5 tournaments on his resume by that point in his career? Including that one year in 1986 that was pretty decent."

I'm pretty sure Mike Krzyzewski didn't have 1986 on his resume when Duke went 21-34 in 1982 and 1983.

But he did have two NITs.

[pfrduke]

http://rivalshoops.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=910&CID=188535

I can't find the "Final top 25" list that the first paragraph alludes to, but I don't think FSU was bumped from the top spot in it.

http://rscihoops.com/ (you have to click through to the "2003 winners").

Rivals was not the consensus. Also, Linas Kleiza obviously didn't go to FSU, and Antonio Griffin did not become a part of that class. That class played precisely one year together - Romero redshirted in 03/04, and Wafer left after 04/05.

As an aside, looking at the top 10 classes in 2003, there were quite a few misses, some by a lot, in the ratings.

[pfrduke]

More to the point, saying he can't win COY in 2009 because he didn't get more value out of high-rated recruits in 2004 and 2005 seems like a silly standard.

If you don't think he did a good job of coaching this season, fine. I would disagree, but fine. But to say he either a) shouldn't win COY this year or b) didn't coach well this year because he hasn't been a good coach in the past seems to be the wrong analysis.

[JasonEvans]

Please stop making comparisons that you know are absolutely nowhere near similar or relevant. Hamilton has been at FSU for, what, 7 years now? Coach K had, what, 3, 4, 5 tournaments on his resume by that point in his career? Including that one year in 1986 that was pretty decent.

It's harder to coach at FSU than at Duke, sure, but the disparity in success is far too huge for that to overturn the much simpler explanation that Hamilton just isn't a good coach at the ACC level.

If Hamilton is not a good coach, then why is FSU so darn good this year?

Look, this argument is silly. Anyone who thinks Hamilton is not at least in the conversation for ACC COY is just not paying attention. I think a decent argument can be made for any of Hamilton, Purnell, Dino, or Skinner to win the award. I'd probably give the nod to Purnell but it is darn close.


Purnell
Hamilton
Dino
Skinner
K
Gary
Roy
No one else deserves any consideration


-Jason "if FSU wins and Clemson loses this weekend, I'd probably reverse the top 2" Evans

[Biscuit King]

Jason, if I had a vote -- and strangely enough, I don't -- Dino Gaudio would not be anywhere near my ballot. That team has as much talent as anyone in America (yes, even as much as the Greatest Team of All Time), and they are underachieving. They don't play much defense, and they just haven't done much on the road other than beating Clemson. I really don't think he has done a great job with them, and if they go out in the second round of the NCAAs, as I suspect they might, it will be a crime.

Purnell, on the other hand, has clearly proven that he's building a program. Clemson shook off the loss of some good players this year and got a lot better.

[roywhite]

I'm fine with Leonard Hamilton getting serious consideration for Coach of the Year in the ACC, or even on a national basis.

On the other hand, in a close game, I don't mind seeing him on the opponents' bench at all.