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Bluedog
02-26-2009, 11:30 AM
I thought it'd make sense to have a thread dedicated to Nolan Smith's status so users can find the information more easily as updates come in. As of now, seems like a mild concussion and he was taken to the hospital as a precaution last night by his mother and stepfather.

Here's the update from The Chronicle:

http://sports.chronicleblogs.com/2009/02/26/smith-taken-to-hospital-as-precautionary-measure/

Here's hoping for a fast recovery! We'll need Nolan.

TillyGalore
02-26-2009, 11:34 AM
Hope Nolan is better soon! If you're reading this Nolan, you're in my thoughts and prayers.

Kim*
02-26-2009, 11:53 AM
Thanks for making a new thread, it makes it a lot easier for me to check for updates while I'm "working" instead of scrolling through numerous pages of the gameday thread.

Hopefully we get some concrete [good] news soon.

ChicagoDevil
02-26-2009, 11:53 AM
Hope Nolan is on his way to full recovery and will be back on the court as soon as it is safe for him! WE NEED YOU NOLAN!

captmojo
02-26-2009, 12:09 PM
Add me to the list of those wishing a speedy full recovery.

CameronBornAndBred
02-26-2009, 01:36 PM
Adding my wishes. He scared the hell out of me the way he was sitting on the bench, he didn't look good at all. Best of luck on a speedy recovery.

Kim*
02-26-2009, 01:47 PM
Adding my wishes. He scared the hell out of me the way he was sitting on the bench, he didn't look good at all. Best of luck on a speedy recovery.
Agreed. The fact that he was sitting there holding his head, looking very dazed, and shaking.. I was violently questioning why they didn't get him out of there sooner. Watching him sit there like that while the crowd loudly bounced and thumped around to some crappy cliche early 90's club-mix song playing over the loudspeaker just didn't sit well with me.

SilkyJ
02-26-2009, 02:11 PM
I know we don't take kindly to bashing our on players, but if I was coach, I would have sent Zoubek to the locker room with Nolan. If he can't play, neither can you. He's out there busting his but to put some pressure on the ball and you let him get floored. I was pretty mad last night. I think Zoubs will be running a little extra this week...

Best wishes on a speedy recovery, Nolan.

weezie
02-26-2009, 02:13 PM
Nolan, we love you. Get better and get back on the court, ASAP!!!!

BD80
02-26-2009, 02:23 PM
I know we don't take kindly to bashing our on players, but if I was coach, I would have sent Zoubek to the locker room with Nolan. If he can't play, neither can you. He's out there busting his but to put some pressure on the ball and you let him get floored. I was pretty mad last night. I think Zoubs will be running a little extra this week...

Best wishes on a speedy recovery, Nolan.

I don't think Zoubs played after the pick.

Coach K does preach communication on the court.

dukeblue1206
02-26-2009, 02:49 PM
Nolan looked a lot like Blake Griffin did after his concussion. Just like he was in a fog. Has anyone watched an Oklahoma game since Blake has been just sitting on the sidelines? He still can not look at the flashing lights and such on scoreboards without having a strange look on his face and blinking his eyes. I hope Nolan's concussion is not that bad.

TillyGalore
02-26-2009, 02:55 PM
Last year when we played Georgia Tech at home, one of their players, I think he was their point guard, got a concussion in the game. I remember his eyes doing funny things, yet he went back in the game. I still don't understand why they let him back in the game. Glad Nolan was taken out of the game and didn't return.

kinghoops
02-26-2009, 02:59 PM
Last year when we played Georgia Tech at home, one of their players, I think he was their point guard, got a concussion in the game. I remember his eyes doing funny things, yet he went back in the game. I still don't understand why they let him back in the game. Glad Nolan was taken out of the game and didn't return.

causey was his name

kexman
02-26-2009, 03:03 PM
I don't think Zoubs played after the pick.

Coach K does preach communication on the court.

Bilas made the comment about Zoubek not calling out the screen. Is that really his job 75 feet from the basket? I'm asking here...I haven't paid attention to what our centers normally do on full court pressure. I assumed that Zoubek was back in the paint ready to play defense in the half court. I know I would have been annoyed if Zoubek picked up a foul 75 ft from the basket by hedging a pick. Maybe he is suppose to be in earshot of the pick to call it out...I don't know. It seems like our bench was fairly close to where the pick was set so it could have been their job as well.
Anyway, I'm asking those with more knowledge where zoubek is suppose to be when our point guard is applying full court pressure? thanks

Kimist
02-26-2009, 03:08 PM
Bilas made the comment about Zoubek not calling out the screen. Is that really his job 75 feet from the basket? I'm asking here...I haven't paid attention to what our centers normally do on full court pressure. I assumed that Zoubek was back in the paint ready to play defense in the half court. I know I would have been annoyed if Zoubek picked up a foul 75 ft from the basket by hedging a pick. Maybe he is suppose to be in earshot of the pick to call it out...I don't know. It seems like our bench was fairly close to where the pick was set so it could have been their job as well.
Anyway, I'm asking those with more knowledge where zoubek is suppose to be when our point guard is applying full court pressure? thanks

I think the observation of Jay Bilas is quite correct.

Devilhawks
02-26-2009, 03:12 PM
I think the observation of Jay Bilas is quite correct.
It's great that you think that, but could you give a little more explanation? I don't remember where Zoubek was at that moment

TillyGalore
02-26-2009, 03:20 PM
causey was his name

That's right. Thanks!

FreezingDevil
02-26-2009, 03:20 PM
As someone who's suffered multiple concussions in the past, I can state that there's no doubt Nolan suffered a concussion last night. I knew it the second I saw his head whiplash off Neal's shoulder. The majority of concussions come from that type of hit -- the brain lliterally squashes into the skull resulting in a bruise. A concussion is a bruised brain, essentially.

Its really important that everyone understand what Nolan is going through right now. A concussion is unlike any other injury. You can't rehab a bruised brain the way you can a broken foot or strained groin. Sleep is the only prescription, since thats the only time the brain can heal itself. Unfortunately, insomnia is a common sympton with concussions so your body can struggle to heal itself. Its a catch-22

The old way of thinking was that a player who suffered a mild concussion would be good to go after about a 10 day period. Although it depends on the individual and the # of previous concussion, that theory has been repeatedly debunked in recent studies. In reality, it can take months -- even years -- for the brain to fully heal. And if the player comes back too soon, the risk of suffering a second, more damaging concussion is greatly enhanced.

This is the biggest fear I have for Nolan. He should start feeling better in a week or so and, I guarantee you, he will be pushing to get back on the court. But while he may feel fine, there's no way his brain will be fully healed. I would just hate for him to get hit again and suffer a truly damaging injury. We're talking permanent damage folks.

So to all us fans, lets go easy on Nolan and not pressure him to start playing too soon. Fans and coaches always hail the player who plays through the pain and takes one for the team. But in this case, where a player risks not only his career but also his life, that sort of attitude is reckless and unfair.

dukeimac
02-26-2009, 03:23 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfT_xn4V_f4

Bilas said nothing about Zoub not calling out the screen he just said someone should have.

Zoub was at about the top of the free throw circle at the other end of the court. I think the bench should have been yelling it out, they were much closer than any Duke player in the game.

SilkyJ
02-26-2009, 03:26 PM
Bilas made the comment about Zoubek not calling out the screen. Is that really his job 75 feet from the basket? I'm asking here...I haven't paid attention to what our centers normally do on full court pressure. I assumed that Zoubek was back in the paint ready to play defense in the half court. I know I would have been annoyed if Zoubek picked up a foul 75 ft from the basket by hedging a pick. Maybe he is suppose to be in earshot of the pick to call it out...I don't know. It seems like our bench was fairly close to where the pick was set so it could have been their job as well.
Anyway, I'm asking those with more knowledge where zoubek is suppose to be when our point guard is applying full court pressure? thanks

Well, its not totally black and white, but I absolutely believe Zoubs should have been in position to call out the pick. You're right I'd be annoyed if he got a foul 75 feet from the basket for hedging, but no one is suggested he needed to hedge off the pick, he could have been at or near half court, and 15-20 feet away from the play, and still called out the screen no problem.

Now, MD had been burning us with penetration in the half court and in transition, and so I'm sure Zoubs was focused on getting his big butt into the paint where he can alter shots, which is a good thing, but you have to be cerebral and keep track of your man and the many other things we are trying to do. Nolan's applying pressure had the same goal as zoubek getting back: which is to slow them down a bit so Zoubs needs to be aware of that and I would absolutely expect Zoubs to be close enough to help out Nolan and call out that screen.

And your assumption was correct. Zoubs was at or near the FT line on defense when the hit occurred.


I remember his eyes doing funny things, yet he went back in the game. I still don't understand why they let him back in the game. Glad Nolan was taken out of the game and didn't return.

Yea, Nolan's eyes did a similar thing when he was on the bench where they seemed to flutter up and down and sort of roll to the back of his head a little. Causey's looked worse though, I must admit.

diesel
02-26-2009, 03:30 PM
Last year when we played Georgia Tech at home, one of their players, I think he was their point guard, got a concussion in the game. I remember his eyes doing funny things, yet he went back in the game. I still don't understand why they let him back in the game. Glad Nolan was taken out of the game and didn't return.

That business with Matt Causey last year scared the hell out of me (to use verbiage that would be familiar to Terps fans). I remember calling my wife in to look at Causey and that we both thought, as parents, how absolutely dangerous this was to Causey's health. I also remember thinking how much my opinion of Paul Hewitt went down because of the decision to keep playing Causey.

Thank goodness nothing like that happened with Nolan Smith.

SilkyJ
02-26-2009, 03:30 PM
I think the bench should have been yelling it out, they were much closer than any Duke player in the game.

You're missing the point: Zoubek SHOULD have been close enough to yell it out.

Lord Ash
02-26-2009, 03:32 PM
Causey looked like he was doing The Undertakers entrance.

kexman
02-26-2009, 03:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfT_xn4V_f4

Bilas said nothing about Zoub not calling out the screen he just said someone should have.

Zoub was at about the top of the free throw circle at the other end of the court. I think the bench should have been yelling it out, they were much closer than any Duke player in the game.

Bilas said something along the lines of, 'the player that feels the worse...well other than nolan smith, is zoubek for not calling out the pick'. I assumed he was going to say neal for causing the injury even though it was a legal screen. he wasn't trying to hurt anyone.

CameronBornAndBred
02-26-2009, 03:38 PM
Causey looked like he was doing The Undertakers entrance.
Yup. I can't believe he went back in instead of going to the hospital.

Kim*
02-26-2009, 03:41 PM
Causey looked like he was doing The Undertakers entrance.
Seriously. That mess was scaaaaary.

Lord Ash
02-26-2009, 03:52 PM
I am slightly shocked anyone on DBR actually knows what I meant. I thought this place would be above that. :)

Hancock 4 Duke
02-26-2009, 04:04 PM
The "its" are at it again.
http://www.terpcenter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7172

Hancock 4 Duke
02-26-2009, 04:05 PM
Yup. I can't believe he went back in instead of going to the hospital.

He went to the hospital after the game for a precaution.

CameronBornAndBred
02-26-2009, 04:08 PM
He went to the hospital after the game for a precaution.
Sending a concussion candidate back into the game and THEN the hospital is a postcaution. A precaution is doing what they did with Nolan, sending him out before the game is over.

Matches
02-26-2009, 04:12 PM
The "its" are at it again.
http://www.terpcenter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7172

I'd like those five minutes of my life back please.

Bluedog
02-26-2009, 04:12 PM
He went to the hospital after the game for a precaution.

CameronBornAndBred was talking about Causey, NOT Nolan. Causey never went to the hospital. He was just assessed by Ga Tech's medical staff. Hewitt later regretted letting Causey back into the game.

http://www.ajc.com/gatch/content/printedition/2008/02/29/techhoops0229.html

BD80
02-26-2009, 04:38 PM
You're missing the point: Zoubek SHOULD have been close enough to yell it out.

Neal was the man Zoubek was covering. Zoubek is responsible for calling out when Neal sets a pick.

Anyone else that sees the pick should also call it out, but the other guys on the floor should be watching their men. Zoubs is the one the coaches will make an example of.

jimsumner
02-26-2009, 04:39 PM
Duke press release.

" Sophomore Nolan Smith is out indefinitely after suffering a mild concussion in the second half of Duke’s 78-67 win over Maryland on Wednesday. The Upper Marlboro, Md., native was examined by the Duke medical staff upon returning to Durham on Wednesday night and again on Thursday.



“Nolan’s condition improved overnight, but we are going to proceed cautiously,” said head coach Mike Krzyzewski. “Our medical staff will continue to monitor his progress and he will return to the rotation when he is fully healthy. Nolan is an important part of this team and we are looking forward to his return.”

JDev
02-26-2009, 04:47 PM
The "its" are at it again.
http://www.terpcenter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7172

I am not clicking on the link because I don't look at Maryland boards. I do not want to go waste-deep in that cesspool. I imagine it has something to do with glee over injuring an opposing player. That kind of harkens back to the game recap on the main page. Maryland and their fans try to find other ground to stand on when they frankly don't match the competition. Maryland's victories are injuring opposing players. Duke's victories are, well, victories.
I am sure there are plenty of good UM fans and alums who are angry that this vocal minority of mean-spirited people with inferiority complexes are representing the fanbase.

Anyway, get well Nolan. Your perimeter defense will be important in stopping Delaney and Vassalo, two quality players.

weezie
02-26-2009, 04:54 PM
I'd like those five minutes of my life back please.

Ahhhh, those hilarious twerps! They really do put the mustard on that warm feeling of sneering condescension and haughtiness that I so love to bestow upon them. ON your knees, PEASANTWERPS!

jamos14
02-26-2009, 04:56 PM
Your perimeter defense will be important in stopping Delaney and Vassalo, two quality players.


I would love for him to be able to play against Va. Tech but I think it is much more reasonable for him to be out until AT LEAST the FSU game.

Get Well Soon!

Rich
02-26-2009, 04:59 PM
Anyone who follows the Mets or Ryan Church knows how long it can take to recover from a concussion. Church's season was effectively over after his concussion last season. Even after he started playing again after being on the DL, he still wasn't the same as pre-concussion.

I don't mean to be a pessimist, but this could be a season ending injury for Nolan.

bjornolf
02-26-2009, 05:08 PM
I've never had a concussion myself, but I played football and rugby for eight years, so I saw my fair share of them, and I studied them in BME at Duke. What the other poster, who should definitely know, said is true. The "secondary" concussion is the most dangerous. It's the one that doctors for athletes such as boxers and football players worry about the most. Very seldom does an initial concussion in cases like this cause major damage. The VAST majority of time, it just kind of softens up the brain and causes some nasty side effects, which are the body's way of telling you not to do it again. The problem is that if an athlete comes back before his/her brain is fully healed, that's when the severe bruising, and even brain damage and loss of brain function, can occur. That's what did in guys like Troy Aikman and Ali. QBs and boxers are paid to stand there and take blows like Nolan took several times every game or match. Helmets are great for preventing cracked skulls, but they do ALMOST nothing to protect the brain from slamming into the inside of the skull (boxing helmets are much more effective, as they absorb more of the impact of the blow). The brain is swimming in fluid inside your skull. If your skull starts moving very quickly in one direction and then suddenly stops, well, your brain don't stop that fast. The blow to the upper chest that causes the QB's head to snap forward and then slam into the turf is far more dangerous than one of the "blows to the head" with a hand (the helmet to helmet followed by helmet to ground is obviously a different animal, more similar to the first hit).

It's kind of like in a car if you're not wearing your seatbelt. If you hit a brick wall at 25 mph without a seatbelt, the car stops but you're stil traveling at 25 mph, so you smash into the windshield. That's what your brain does inside your skull. That's what seatbelts and crumple zones in cars are for. They give your body more time to slow down so you don't go splat all over the windshield. The problem is that you can't install "crumple" zones in a player's head. They're trying to develop a helmet that will give the brain more deceleration time, but so far, it's been difficult to design properly.

I can't say the grade of his concussion from what I saw, but I wouldn't expect him back before the ACC tourney at the EARLIEST. If I were his doctor, knowing what I know, I'd keep him out 'til the NCAAT, maybe even the second weekend of the tourney. And that's assuming he's passing all the concussion recovery tests. Also, because he's a young man whose brain isn't 100% developed yet and who is an unpaid college player with his whole life in front of him, I would keep him out longer and be even more careful with him. Two weeks out is a MINIMUM here, I think.

Anyway, best wishes to Nolan for a speedy recovery. And I'm sure Zoubek feels absolutely terrible, but I'm sure he didn't mean for this to happen, so I hope he doesn't beat himself up too badly over it. Let's just hope he (and ALL his teammates) learned his lesson and it won't happen again.

jimsumner
02-26-2009, 05:09 PM
Not all concussions are created equal.

Duke generally is quite conservative in their medical statements. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't use the qualifier "mild" indiscriminately.

Lord Ash
02-26-2009, 05:30 PM
As a few folks have said... don't get too anxious to get Nolan back. Having suffered a concussion myself in hockey, and suffered for years and years and years after it, they can be difficult to recover from. Nolan needs to worry about his long term health and career before worrying about any particular game. I am sure Nolan will come back better than ever when the time is right!

dukegirlinsc
02-26-2009, 05:38 PM
I am slightly shocked anyone on DBR actually knows what I meant. I thought this place would be above that. :)

I had a guidance counselor who looked just like Paul Bearer. (Sp?)

Ders24
02-26-2009, 05:53 PM
Not much info but:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/basketball/ncaa/02/26/smith.ap/index.html

Oops. Just saw the Duke press release quoted earlier. Sorry.

Tom B.
02-26-2009, 05:56 PM
he wasn't trying to hurt anyone.

I'm not so sure about that -- Neal pretty clearly leaned into the screen with his shoulder and had his arms up around mid-torso. Remember, it was shortly after the inbounds play in which Zoubek bumped him and he fell down, leaving Zoubek open to recieve a pass and score. Neal thought he'd been fouled on that play, but there was no call. Whether the screen was "legal" or not, I have little doubt that his goal was to send an emphatic message (kind of like a batter who gets hit by a pitch and then takes out the shortstop or second baseman while sliding into second), and if Nolan happened to get hurt in the process, oh well....

Lord Ash
02-26-2009, 05:57 PM
I had a guidance counselor who looked just like Paul Bearer. (Sp?)

Oh man, like I wasn't in love with you enough? Teaching, Battier for Prez, a teacher, admitting to knowing something about possibly the least classy piece of entertainment on earth... seriously? Come on. Next you are going to post "No really, I love cars!"

;)

shoutingncu
02-26-2009, 05:58 PM
Duke press release.

“Nolan’s condition improved overnight, but we are going to proceed cautiously,” said head coach Mike Krzyzewski.


Glad to hear that the condition improved, at least. Here's hoping for a full recovery.

cato
02-26-2009, 06:00 PM
Not all concussions are created equal.

Duke generally is quite conservative in their medical statements. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't use the qualifier "mild" indiscriminately.

Nor are recovery times. I've had 4 concussions, from mild to hospitalization, and recovery from each one was different. I had symptoms for over a month from the last one, which I collected while snowboarding in December.

Funnily enough, my doctor spent a year with the Maryland football team, before moving on to the Ravens, and then his current practice. He said that athletes are not cleared to return to play until they are symptom free. I would guess that would apply to practice, as well.

BD80
02-26-2009, 06:03 PM
On PTI, Wilbon said that the MD crowd applauded when Nolan walked off.

BoC
02-26-2009, 06:07 PM
On PTI, Wilbon said that the MD crowd applauded when Nolan walked off.

I saw that too. Pardon me, Wilbon, if I disagree. Not only did he make that comment, but there was no mention of the crowd continuing with their yelling/screaming/cheering after the devastating pick, long after most other crowds would have lapsed into a respectful silence.

bjornolf
02-26-2009, 06:11 PM
Oh man, like I wasn't in love with you enough? Teaching, Battier for Prez, a teacher, admitting to knowing something about possibly the least classy piece of entertainment on earth... seriously? Come on. Next you are going to post "No really, I love cars!"

;)

Geez, man, what, do you love me too? ;) Seriously, though, wrestling is far from the least classy piece of entertainment on earth...there's porn, exotic dancing, roller derby, slam ball, wipeout and its parent, Most Extreme Elimination, Cops, Jerry Springer, and American Idol. :p Oh, and that terrible dating show on TLC for pederasts, Toddlers and Tiaras or whatever it's called. :eek:

DukieBoy
02-26-2009, 06:12 PM
The "its" are at it again.
http://www.terpcenter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7172

I would do this, but I don't want to be a member of such a despicable group of people, but would someone just post that picture that had Grevis Vasquez standing in front of the Crazies with the score faded at the top. I think that should shut them up.

jpfrizzle
02-26-2009, 06:25 PM
again, another example of how thuggish attitudes looses a game. all these ACC teams would like nothing more than to beat DUKE up, they thrive on it, they live it. little do they know or realize, DUKE beat Twerps TWICE!!! They wanted payback, i can respect that. they got their payback, i can understand that. Overall, their bullsh*t couldn't win the game.



Go DUKE ! ! ! !

Son of Mojo
02-26-2009, 07:38 PM
A) here's to hoping Nolan gets to feeling better and B) combining talking Duke hoops with wrestling references mixed into the discussion......amazing how two hobbies of mine meld together (ever so slightly at least). :p

Devil in the Blue Dress
02-26-2009, 07:40 PM
Nor are recovery times. I've had 4 concussions, from mild to hospitalization, and recovery from each one was different. I had symptoms for over a month from the last one, which I collected while snowboarding in December.

Funnily enough, my doctor spent a year with the Maryland football team, before moving on to the Ravens, and then his current practice. He said that athletes are not cleared to return to play until they are symptom free. I would guess that would apply to practice, as well.

Would that be Dr. Moorman?

Troublemaker
02-26-2009, 08:08 PM
Concussions are creepy. I received a bad one about 15 years ago and had a horrible headache for two weeks. But far worse than the headache was that for the first time in my life, I was able to "feel" my brain inside my skull. That is, I began to be able to sense my brain sloshing around in my skull whenever I moved. While that sensation subsided, it has never completely gone away. Years later, I can still "feel" my brain -- there's no pain involved, but I'm constantly aware of it being there. I fear for anyone who is concussed.

dukegirlinsc
02-26-2009, 08:12 PM
Oh man, like I wasn't in love with you enough? Teaching, Battier for Prez, a teacher, admitting to knowing something about possibly the least classy piece of entertainment on earth... seriously? Come on. Next you are going to post "No really, I love cars!"

;)

Haha I was a WWF brat until I discovered the internets and began spoiling myself on a daily basis. Thank god for that, haha. I was a huge Bret Hart fan, but that's neither here nor there. ;)

And I do, in fact, love cars. I drive one EVERY day!! :cool:

Devilsfan
02-26-2009, 09:21 PM
Bilas clearly called out Zoubek for not communicating. He gets stuffed by a 6'7" forward and then that? Oh well like my mama always said, if you can't say anthing good... I'll leave it up to Jay to tell it like it is.

SoCalDukeFan
02-26-2009, 10:08 PM
Nolan

I want you back as soon as possible, but more than that, I want you healthy.

So, take your time and get it right.

SoCal

rthomas
02-26-2009, 10:09 PM
A mild concussion might mean a pretty quick return. Like Rothlisberger.

Oriole Way
02-27-2009, 12:23 AM
Yeah, a mild concussion has a much quicker recovery time than more severe ones. Usually it takes one or two weeks, even if the team is being conservative. Of course, I'm sure complications could arise, but I don't think this will be season-ending.

Someone earlier mentioned Ryan Church. Aaron Hill of the Blue Jays also suffered a concussion last season in the first few weeks of the season and was pretty much done for the entire year. Concussions are bad news. But those were more serious.

Hopefully Nolan starts feeling better soon. I'm sure his head will be hurting for some time. At least it's good that he has some of the best medical facilities in the world at his disposal.

The Gordog
02-27-2009, 09:36 AM
Nolan

I want you back as soon as possible, but more than that, I want you healthy.

So, take your time and get it right.

SoCal

We are all pulling for you Nolan. Take of yourself first because we need you back, and most importantly we need you 100% healthy. Your future is more important that a few games.

4decadedukie
02-27-2009, 09:49 AM
I am sure he will be fine, but he is in my thoughts and prayers, nevertheless.

FreezingDevil
02-27-2009, 10:21 AM
A tricky thing with concussions is that sometimes it takes a full 48 hours for the full range of symptons to arise. Its pretty common for a player to feel fine the next day only to crash soon after. I had one doctor compare it to when you stub your toe and there's a 2-3 second lapse before the pain sets in (hate that). The same thing can happen with concussions, except it can take 48 hours for the lingering effects (headaches, severe fatigue, loss of appetite, etc.) to start. So in that initial period, its tough for a doctor to make any definite conclusions about the severity of the concussion and gauge the recovery time.

I imagine that Nolan's doctors will start to get a better sense of his condition in the coming days. No matter what they conclude, they will keep Nolan listed as out "indefinitely" so as not to pressure him into making a comeback too soon.

roywhite
02-27-2009, 10:30 AM
I'd be surprised to see Nolan play Saturday vs VaTech, and surprised not to see him play Tuesday vs Florida State.

Get well soon, Nolan!

bjornolf
02-27-2009, 10:32 AM
I would be SHOCKED to see him play before the ACC tourney. No way he plays by FSU, PROBABLY not by UNC.

killerleft
02-27-2009, 11:15 AM
While I think he'll play next week, predictions either way are just guesswork. Only Nolan and his doctors can know the answer.

What would not surprise me is if Nolan's parents decide that he should not play for "x" amount of time. And how could one disagree with such a decision?

diesel
02-27-2009, 11:24 AM
While I think he'll play next week, predictions either way are just guesswork. Only Nolan and his doctors can know the answer.

What would not surprise me is if Nolan's parents decide that he should not play for "x" amount of time. And how could one disagree with such a decision?

That was the other thing that shocked me when Causey was hurt and rolling his eyes and still kept playing. His parents were in the stands. Maybe their view wasn't as good as what could be seen on the TV cameras. But nobody alerted them to what was going on? Hewitt would have got a short crisp instruction from this parent if it had been my kid down there.

By the way, what is Matt Causey doing now?

Indoor66
02-27-2009, 11:37 AM
That was the other thing that shocked me when Causey was hurt and rolling his eyes and still kept playing. His parents were in the stands. Maybe their view wasn't as good as what could be seen on the TV cameras. But nobody alerted them to what was going on? Hewitt would have got a short crisp instruction from this parent if it had been my kid down there.

By the way, what is Matt Causey doing now?

Recovering?

billy
02-27-2009, 01:11 PM
Would that be Dr. Moorman?

Probably not - Dean Taylor is the men's bball orthopedic team doc (sorry if link is messed up): http://dukesportsmedicine.org/modules/ctr_sptmed_staff/index.php?id=10

This guy is the medical team doc I believe (again apologize for link ignorance): http://dukesportsmedicine.org/modules/ctr_sptmed_staff/index.php?id=8

Regardless, the return to play hinges on neurologic testing given before the injury (i.e. before the season) and them at intervals after an injury/concussion. Strangely, there is no one "right answer" on testing or return to play; there have been several conferences and consensus statements on this topic recently.

Here are some general guidelines on concussions and return to play (a consensus statement of several groups): http://www.acsm.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Clinicians1&Template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=1623

And here's some info on neurologic testing for concussions: http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/neurogram/neurogram1_4_concussion.cfm

TillyGalore
02-27-2009, 01:20 PM
Probably not - Dean Taylor is the men's bball orthopedic team doc (sorry if link is messed up): http://dukesportsmedicine.org/modules/ctr_sptmed_staff/index.php?id=10

This guy is the medical team doc I believe (again apologize for link ignorance): http://dukesportsmedicine.org/modules/ctr_sptmed_staff/index.php?id=8

Regardless, the return to play hinges on neurologic testing given before the injury (i.e. before the season) and them at intervals after an injury/concussion. Strangely, there is no one "right answer" on testing or return to play; there have been several conferences and consensus statements on this topic recently.

Here are some general guidelines on concussions and return to play (a consensus statement of several groups): http://www.acsm.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Clinicians1&Template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=1623

And here's some info on neurologic testing for concussions: http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/neurogram/neurogram1_4_concussion.cfm

No, it's more than likely Dr. Moorman as he was with the Ravens prior to coming to Duke. Dr. Taylor wasn't.

Also, Dr. Moorman is Head Team Physician at Duke.

billy
02-27-2009, 01:26 PM
No, it's more than likely Dr. Moorman as he was with the Ravens prior to coming to Duke. Dr. Taylor wasn't.

Also, Dr. Moorman is Head Team Physician at Duke.

Check the link. It's Dr. Taylor....

TillyGalore
02-27-2009, 01:44 PM
Check the link. It's Dr. Taylor....

Check Dr. Moorman's info, http://dukesportsmedicine.org/modules/ctr_sptmed_staff/index.php?id=3. He was with the Ravens prior to coming to Duke NOT Dr. Taylor (refer to your link).

Cato said the doctor he saw at Duke was with Maryland and the Ravens prior to coming to Duke, per the link above Dr. Moorman was with U of Maryland Medical Center and the Ravens prior to coming Duke.

billy
02-27-2009, 01:48 PM
My bad - poor reading comprehension. I assumed the Moorman comment was regarding Nolan Smith being treated by Moorman, not whomever Cato saw. I was thinking that it would be very unusual for an orthopedic surgeon to make the "return to play" call in a collegiate setting...

TillyGalore
02-27-2009, 02:04 PM
My bad - poor reading comprehension. I assumed the Moorman comment was regarding Nolan Smith being treated by Moorman, not whomever Cato saw. I was thinking that it would be very unusual for an orthopedic surgeon to make the "return to play" call in a collegiate setting...

When it comes to ortho injuries, I don't think it's all that uncommon for an orthopod to make the determination as to when an athlete returns to play. Dr. Bytomski or more than likely a neurologist will make the call as to when Nolan returns to play.

billy
02-27-2009, 02:13 PM
For fear of beating this to death, as an orthopod, I wouldn't want to make the call on return to play in this situation. In a different setting, such as a high school team where I was the sole physician, sure...

Devil in the Blue Dress
02-27-2009, 02:26 PM
My bad - poor reading comprehension. I assumed the Moorman comment was regarding Nolan Smith being treated by Moorman, not whomever Cato saw. I was thinking that it would be very unusual for an orthopedic surgeon to make the "return to play" call in a collegiate setting...
TillyGalore had it right. I was responding to the resume which happens to fit Dr. Moorman who happens to be my orthpod as well as heading up the Duke Sports Medicine Clinic. (When I was a student at Duke, my orthopod was Dr. Bassett, a real character and a wonderful man who contributed tremendously to Duke during his lifetime.)

Duke_Bogger_1991
02-27-2009, 02:39 PM
There are three sets of guidelines used by physicians for return to play - all three would have Nolan out for a week - and thats assuming his symptoms completely resolved the evening after the game - i.e., return to play after one week of being asymptomatic. I would interpret this to mean no practice outside of low level non-contact play.

Interestingly the three guidelines ( Cantu, Colorado, and American Academy of Neurology) are at odds with each other on return to play and there is little science to guide the athlete. It appears that the sooner additional head trauma occurs to the initial event the greater the likelihood of subsequent concussions (i.e. a lowered threshold for concussion) and the of course with each concussion comes futher lowering of this threshold.

After one week of rest I'd see this as a decision for the player and his family. Likely the longer the delay to full contact play the better, but there is little evidence to guide an athlete as to when rest creates diminishing returns.

If his symptoms resolved later that evening my best bet is that he returns to practice one week from then. Appropriately, there are many details that we don't know about.

Uncle Drew
02-27-2009, 02:48 PM
I've had three concussions in my lifetime. I can tell you they hurt, but the dizzy feelig afterwards is the bad part. From what I was told in laymans terms you rattle your brain around in your skull. Two of mine there was a fracture to the skull, one there wasn't. At any rate as one poster said you can feel okay afterwards and then it affect you a few days later. Six hours after one of my concussions I fell out in a store and didn't remember a thing, even though I felt fine before.

Honestly I don't think it should have taken a doctor to figure out the Causey kid shouldn't have played the rest of that game. But as to whether Nolan plays and when that is actually up to how he feels and his doctor. If he goes several days with no negative affects they may let him play. You just don't know how severe the concussion was, despite game film. It could have been worse than it looked or it might not have been as bad. Frankly we'll all know around game time of which ever game he returns in most likely.


Interestingly the three guidelines ( Cantu, Colorado, and American Academy of Neurology) are at odds with each other on return to play and there is little science to guide the athlete. It appears that the sooner additional head trauma occurs to the initial event the greater the likelihood of subsequent concussions (i.e. a lowered threshold for concussion) and the of course with each concussion comes futher lowering of this threshold.

Excellent points and I have been told (much like Steve young) that one or two more concussions could cause serious brain damage. (Yeah I know, I know, like I don't have that already!) But since I have had three I will always be more at risk to get another and feel it's affects even more.

MarkD83
02-27-2009, 03:32 PM
Being an optimist...Once Nolan returns to play I imagine he will be at 100% He may be shy of running into picks but otherwise he should be good to go.

If this were an ankle sprain or wrist injury (See G. Henderson) I would worry that the player looks ready to go but the limbs are just not quite up to the stress.

If Nolan sticks to running and shooting and avoids contact my guess is that he will be 100% on his return. (This is not a medical opinion just an optimistic view.)

Kewlswim
02-27-2009, 03:38 PM
Hi,

Is it far-fetched to think that Coach K will watch Nolan closely and even if the Doctors say he can play, if Nolan does seem right in practice keep Nolan out until he seems "his old self" again? In other words, it is one thing to be medically cleared to play and it is another to play as one did before a concussion. I wouldn't want to rush the kid back. If he needs to take (and I am not advocating this I don't know the situation, this is strictly a hypothetical) the rest of the year off so be it, a person's future should be a lot more important than a college basketball game.

Get well soon Nolan! :)

GO DUKE!

Zeke
02-27-2009, 03:41 PM
If scans are OK then he can practice next week and if all goes well then play later next week. If any edema or anything else on scan - then out for a 4-6 weeks assuming it clears promptly.

BD80
02-27-2009, 04:22 PM
Players that break a nose are permitted to wear a protective mask on their face.

Would Nolan be allowed to play wearing a helmet?

Kidding aside, let's say protective headgear.

CDu
02-27-2009, 04:30 PM
Players that break a nose are permitted to wear a protective mask on their face.

Would Nolan be allowed to play wearing a helmet?

Kidding aside, let's say protective headgear.

I'd guess that the answer is yes (players are alllowed to wear elbow pads and facemasks, for example). But I doubt that the ability to wear headgear would speed up Smith's return. One of the problems with concussions is that you don't actually have to make contact with anything to get one. Whiplash can cause a concussion by bouncing the brain off the inside of the skull.

Protective headgear would certainly reduce the risk of a future concussion, but I'd guess he'd still have to be fully recovered from the initial concussion, headgear or no headgear.

Jarhead
02-27-2009, 04:51 PM
I'd guess that the answer is yes (players are alllowed to wear elbow pads and facemasks, for example). But I doubt that the ability to wear headgear would speed up Smith's return. One of the problems with concussions is that you don't actually have to make contact with anything to get one. Whiplash can cause a concussion by bouncing the brain off the inside of the skull.

Protective headgear would certainly reduce the risk of a future concussion, but I'd guess he'd still have to be fully recovered from the initial concussion, headgear or no headgear.
Having viewed Nolan's collision with Neal several times, whiplash is exactly what caused the concussion. Nolan's head moved rapidly in one direction, and rebounded just as rapidly in the other. Another thing I noticed was that Neal had both arms across his chest, and his left shoulder moved into Nolan at impact. Of course, that would have been a very natural movement to brace himself against the impact.

Devil in the Blue Dress
02-27-2009, 05:02 PM
Having viewed Nolan's collision with Neal several times, whiplash is exactly what caused the concussion. Nolan's head moved rapidly in one direction, and rebounded just as rapidly in the other. Another thing I noticed was that Neal had both arms across his chest, and his left shoulder moved into Nolan at impact. Of course, that would have been a very natural movement to brace himself against the impact.

As the play developed, I thought it strange that Neal had his arms up like that while in the the usual stance taken by players setting a pick the arms are down. In fact, the arms up against the body like that looked more like a football player getting ready to use a forearm on somebody.

Whiplash created by such contact can cause serious injury. A local high school player died after being pushed in the chest enough to cause significant whiplash. The injury happened in the the first game of the season.

I wish for Nolan a speedy and full recovery.

CDu
02-27-2009, 05:05 PM
Having viewed Nolan's collision with Neal several times, whiplash is exactly what caused the concussion. Nolan's head moved rapidly in one direction, and rebounded just as rapidly in the other. Another thing I noticed was that Neal had both arms across his chest, and his left shoulder moved into Nolan at impact. Of course, that would have been a very natural movement to brace himself against the impact.

Yeah, I agree. While I don't think Smith's head actually made contact with Neal (or the ground), he had two sets of violent changes in direction. The first was obviously the whiplash caused by the collision with Neal. The second was when he hit the ground.

As for Neal's screen, though, there was certainly some extra mustard on it. He certainly leaned in and gave it some "oomph." I don't think Neal was trying to injure Smith, but I'm quite sure he was trying to make a statement, rough Smith up, and intimidate Smith. The degree of the intent is irrelevant though.

My biggest problem with the play is that officiating doesn't seem to have caught up. Officials are supposed to have started making it a point of emphasis to punish dangerous play (see swinging elbows), and illegal screens were on the list. Yet officiating has remained lax in calling these hard screens as fouls. A regular screen won't result in a situation like the Smith play. If you're standing straight up and down (no movement) when setting the screen, players don't get destroyed like that. It's when you brace yourself and lean in that the damage gets done.

I'm not happy with Neal's screen, but the reality is that it's fairly commonplace. As has been pointed out, even some of our players are guilty of it. I think the players are de-sensitized to the danger, and with the adrenaline pumping the rational thinking probably isn't there. And officials are doing very little (if anything) to discourage the behavior in the first place. If officials do a better job of enforcing penalties on that, we'll start to see fewer incidents in the future.

Channing
02-27-2009, 05:08 PM
I saw that too. Pardon me, Wilbon, if I disagree. Not only did he make that comment, but there was no mention of the crowd continuing with their yelling/screaming/cheering after the devastating pick, long after most other crowds would have lapsed into a respectful silence.

someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but werent there "Lets Go Duke" chants at MSG last year when the Pitt player was on the ground after hurting his knee? I tried to find a youtube clip but couldnt.

After watching the replay of Nolan's injury it seems to me like most of the cheering is for the hard screen and ensuing three, and then it quiets down considerably with maybe a few fans acting inappropriately. I hate UMD fans as much as the next guy, but lets not overgeneralize.

OldSchool
02-27-2009, 05:28 PM
As the play developed, I thought it strange that Neal had his arms up like that while in the the usual stance taken by players setting a pick the arms are down.


If you're doing a legal screen, then you want your hands down to protect the groin area. You only have to take a hard thigh to the groin once, and collapse to the court in pain, to learn to protect yourself if a player is going to be led hard into your legal screen.

In Neal's case he didn't have to worry about protecting himself there because he raised his arms against his chest, leaned forward and moved to his left in order to INITIATE the contact on Nolan with his arms.

CDu
02-27-2009, 05:33 PM
someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but werent there "Lets Go Duke" chants at MSG last year when the Pitt player was on the ground after hurting his knee? I tried to find a youtube clip but couldnt.

After watching the replay of Nolan's injury it seems to me like most of the cheering is for the hard screen and ensuing three, and then it quiets down considerably with maybe a few fans acting inappropriately. I hate UMD fans as much as the next guy, but lets not overgeneralize.

They cheered wildly when Smith went down. They cheered wildly when Neal hit the three. They continued to cheer wildly when the stoppage was called. They got quiet (for the most part - always some idiots) when it was clear that Smith wasn't getting up.

Cheering for the hard screen is understandable (not the classiest thing ever, but pretty standard for fans in general), and clearly cheering for the three is understandable. They probably cheered a bit too long afterward, but I believe that primary cheering was mostly for the "statement" screen and the big three - not the injury.

Kim*
02-27-2009, 07:06 PM
someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but werent there "Lets Go Duke" chants at MSG last year when the Pitt player was on the ground after hurting his knee? I tried to find a youtube clip but couldnt.

After watching the replay of Nolan's injury it seems to me like most of the cheering is for the hard screen and ensuing three, and then it quiets down considerably with maybe a few fans acting inappropriately. I hate UMD fans as much as the next guy, but lets not overgeneralize.
Yeah, I was at that game and that did happen. But it was only a small group of drunk a-holes in one section that was right behind me, it wasn't a crowd majority by any stretch of the imagination. And as soon as they started, we all screamed for them to stfu.

Abraxas
02-27-2009, 07:23 PM
I am a Duke-trained neurologist. Some years ago, I recommended benching the starting quarterback of a top 5 team for 2 weeks due to a concussion. The team got two losses. It is hard but it is best for the player. As indicated earlier, there is a lot of heterogeneity in the biomechanics of concussions. The hit is considered a mild concussion because Nolan was up and walking in less than 5 minutes. Two prior posters described the symptoms of their own concussions very accurately. I share the concern that often players wants to get back to play too soon before they are back to normal. I don't expect Nolan to play until the Carolina game, or perhaps the ACC tournament.

We will miss his defense!

socaldukie
02-27-2009, 08:01 PM
I know each circumstance is different as noted above. But, can any comparisons be drawn from Nolan's injury and Griffin who was just cleared after 6+ days?

Zeke
02-27-2009, 08:33 PM
Watching it on TEVO, it looked to me as if Nolan hit his jead on the floor after he got knocked down. It was a hard contact but no elbow to the chin as I heard on TV. What say you?

CDu
02-27-2009, 08:51 PM
Watching it on TEVO, it looked to me as if Nolan hit his jead on the floor after he got knocked down. It was a hard contact but no elbow to the chin as I heard on TV. What say you?

It most certainly wasn't an elbow to the chin. I hadn't heard that rumor before. Neal hit Smith with his chest. It was the act of tensing up and leaning into the screen that did the damage. The contact was Smith's shoulder to Neal's chest.

It looked to me like Smith got a case of double whiplash. His head snapped forward when he ran into Neal, and then snapped back when he hit the floor. I actually don't think his head made contact with either Neal or the floor, but the whiplash effect caused the concussion.

BoC
02-27-2009, 08:57 PM
Yeah, I was at that game and that did happen. But it was only a small group of drunk a-holes in one section that was right behind me, it wasn't a crowd majority by any stretch of the imagination. And as soon as they started, we all screamed for them to stfu.

When a player is obviously hurt, a normal crowd will quiet down out of respect, within a reasonable amount of time. After Neal hit the three, the reasonable amount of time ended. The student section (at least) continued to cheer loudly, clapping and waving their arms. They continued to do so at least until the broadcast went to commercial. While I don't remember exactly what the situation was after the commercial, I don't seem to remember the place being near-silent, as it would have been anywhere else in the country (and against any other team).

No, I wasn't at the game, but then I didn't need to be; the noise came through loud and clear. Literally.

Edited to add: I didn't mean to quote you, specifically; this was just to add my own clarification to anybody who thinks the Maryland fans didn't act in anything other than a reprehensible manner.

Kewlswim
02-27-2009, 09:09 PM
When a player is obviously hurt, a normal crowd will quiet down out of respect, within a reasonable amount of time. After Neal hit the three, the reasonable amount of time ended. The student section (at least) continued to cheer loudly, clapping and waving their arms. They continued to do so at least until the broadcast went to commercial. While I don't remember exactly what the situation was after the commercial, I don't seem to remember the place being near-silent, as it would have been anywhere else in the country (and against any other team).

No, I wasn't at the game, but then I didn't need to be; the noise came through loud and clear. Literally.

Hi,

Did the Terp fans at least clap for Nolan as he made his way to the bench?

I know this is not completely related, but from 1984-1988 while I was at Duke I really didn't have anything against the Terp fans. The only comment I can remember making was at an ACC tournament game was how old their students seemed to be in relation to the Duke students. We were almost all in our late teens or early twenties and it was obvious that many Terp students at the arena were well into their twenties if not their thirties. Nevertheless, I had nothing against them at all. They seemed fine. When did the worm turn, so to speak?

GO DUKE!

BoC
02-27-2009, 09:14 PM
Hi,

When did the worm turn, so to speak?

GO DUKE!

I'm gonna say sometime in 2001...

MonitorMom
02-27-2009, 09:46 PM
According to him they cheered when Nolan dropped, cheered for the bucket, and cheered the loudest on the replay of Nolan dropping again. A Crazie to the max, he's all about doing what it takes to give your team a boost, but said this reaction, coupled with the chants about Singler and Paulus crossed the line.

Kewlswim
02-27-2009, 09:58 PM
I'm gonna say sometime in 2001...

Hi,

I would have to say that Maryland is just baffling. How can a place with such good food, Crabcakes anyone, be so mean? Even the French seem mellow compared to Terp fans. A school that has no reason to think of us as its rival: Academically, geographically, heck even athletically--we just aren't. I am thinking since this became so ugly starting in 2001 maybe by 2011 it will die down and they can go back to being just good old fashioned competitors. Nothing wrong with a hard fought game in front of die-hard, yet not crossing the line, fans. I want to like Gary Williams, but sometimes I wonder if he isn't partly to blame.

GO DUKE!

Kim*
02-27-2009, 10:05 PM
When a player is obviously hurt, a normal crowd will quiet down out of respect, within a reasonable amount of time. After Neal hit the three, the reasonable amount of time ended. The student section (at least) continued to cheer loudly, clapping and waving their arms. They continued to do so at least until the broadcast went to commercial. While I don't remember exactly what the situation was after the commercial, I don't seem to remember the place being near-silent, as it would have been anywhere else in the country (and against any other team).

No, I wasn't at the game, but then I didn't need to be; the noise came through loud and clear. Literally.

Edited to add: I didn't mean to quote you, specifically; this was just to add my own clarification to anybody who thinks the Maryland fans didn't act in anything other than a reprehensible manner.
Wait, I'm confused. My comments were referring to the Pitt game from last season that Steven mentioned.

BoC
02-27-2009, 10:16 PM
Wait, I'm confused. My comments were referring to the Pitt game from last season that Steven mentioned.

Yeah, that's why I edited my post to be more about Maryland fans and their attitude toward Duke in general (I meant to quote someone else anyway, so that was my mistake).

captmojo
02-27-2009, 10:47 PM
Everybody watching replays, please watch Neal's arms. In fairness to the officials, the leaning in of the screen-setter can be hard to detect. Neal had his arms crossed and against his body. As long as they stayed against his own body, he's OK. If he had pushed his arms outward against Smith, we should all be calling and screaming "dirty play". The latter was not the case.

The most important thing is for Nolan to have a full and speedy recovery. This kind of thing is far too dangerous to risk his well being, for how ever long it takes.

CDu
02-28-2009, 07:38 AM
Everybody watching replays, please watch Neal's arms. In fairness to the officials, the leaning in of the screen-setter can be hard to detect. Neal had his arms crossed and against his body. As long as they stayed against his own body, he's OK. If he had pushed his arms outward against Smith, we should all be calling and screaming "dirty play". The latter was not the case.

The most important thing is for Nolan to have a full and speedy recovery. This kind of thing is far too dangerous to risk his well being, for how ever long it takes.

I agree that it was not a "dirty" play, and that Neal's arms were against his body. But I wouldn't absolve the officials for missing the call. Hard screens (along with swinging elbows) have been defined as a point of emphasis, and yet officials are still missing those. It's not THAT hard to judge body lean - remember, officials are expected to make the same determination on block/charge calls. I'll grant that it's possible to make a mistake on the lean, but I think officials are giving far too much margin to the screener in these cases than the screenee. That should not be the case.

bjornolf
02-28-2009, 09:00 AM
It's one thing to lean a little, but look at the pic. The BACK of his head is in front of his toes. Try to stand with your arms crossed over your chest and lean forward enough that your head is in front of your toes. I start losing my balance by that point. That's not a lean, that's bordering on a contortion of the body. Still not saying it's dirty, just saying it wasn't just a "lean".

I think I saw on one of the Maryland boards that the fans were calling to see the replay again. If true, that's pretty damning in my book.

tele
02-28-2009, 09:11 AM
Everybody watching replays, please watch Neal's arms. In fairness to the officials, the leaning in of the screen-setter can be hard to detect. Neal had his arms crossed and against his body. As long as they stayed against his own body, he's OK. If he had pushed his arms outward against Smith, we should all be calling and screaming "dirty play". The latter was not the case.

The most important thing is for Nolan to have a full and speedy recovery. This kind of thing is far too dangerous to risk his well being, for how ever long it takes.

I don't think it matters where his arm were, he didn't reach out and grab him he put his shoulder into him. And it's not a random play where Neal just happened to drift into Nolan's path. It's at least a three man play, it starts after a made basket with Neal running hard up the court to get his man (zoubek) running back on defense, then Neal turns and runs back toward his guards inbounding the ball to the middle of the free throw line. When the maryland guards see Neal running back toward them, they inbound the ball under the basket. The guard getting the ball turns to see where the Duke defender is and then tries to move with the ball up the middle of the court toward the screener. The guard has to accelerate hard and drives the defender into the screener, usually moving slighty to their strong hand side, so neal had to move left to try set the screen. The maryland guard had to be moving fast enough so Nolan couldn't get turned and see the pick and had to stay within the paint area so neal had a chance to get into "position".

Is it a dirty play? Should it have a place in basketball? Well, I don't think it's something good teams have to do to win. There are rules in place to protect players from this kind of play and to avoid injury to player. One is to be sure the opposing player has a step to avoid the screen, two is that the screener isn't moving sideways, and three the screener isn't leaning in to clip the opposing player. So, other than these three rules being violated and the a player getting a concussion as a direct result, it's just another basketball play.

It is more common for a big player to screen for their guard bringing the ball up while running up the court with their ball handler, not a hard backscreen running the opposite direction with a purpose. I guess it depends on if you want to rattle someones fillings or not. How do you think the maryland fans would have reacted if it was Gervais lying on the floor? Do you think they would have thought it was a foul? Would they have booed the officials, or maybe chanted an obscenity at the duke player? I suppose they would have just said it was a good hard play.

I also hope Nolan is feeling better, he was playing well and helping his team to a well deserved win.

Hancock 4 Duke
02-28-2009, 11:16 AM
I thought I saw lift his elbow up a little to hit him in the head. I don't know if that is legal or not.

tendev
02-28-2009, 12:54 PM
Let's be clear about one thing here. Neal wanted to nail Smith and clearly he enjoyed the fact that he did (that was why he was smiling in the team's huddle aftwards) as did the crowd. When you are trying to nail someone and you enjoy the fact that you did, even after it is clear the guy is hurt, that is dirty, nasty and has no place in the sport. If a Duke player did what Neal did, I would be just as critical. I have been watching ACC basketball for 30 years and it has only recenlty become acceptable to nail a guy like that on a screen and then have people justify it because it may not have been a foul.

You don't have to nail a guy like that simply because it is legal. Just like you don't have to yell and scream after you make a dunk. Jay Bilas makes the point that "tough" players don't scream after dunks. He should add to the list that tough players don't try to hurt other players even if it is a legal play.

DoubleDuke Dad
02-28-2009, 01:35 PM
Let's be clear about one thing here. Neal wanted to nail Smith and clearly he enjoyed the fact that he did (that was why he was smiling in the team's huddle aftwards) as did the crowd. When you are trying to nail someone and you enjoy the fact that you did, even after it is clear the guy is hurt, that is dirty, nasty and has no place in the sport. If a Duke player did what Neal did, I would be just as critical. I have been watching ACC basketball for 30 years and it has only recenlty become acceptable to nail a guy like that on a screen and then have people justify it because it may not have been a foul.

You don't have to nail a guy like that simply because it is legal. Just like you don't have to yell and scream after you make a dunk. Jay Bilas makes the point that "tough" players don't scream after dunks. He should add to the list that tough players don't try to hurt other players even if it is a legal play.

I find it sad that the NFL does more to protect its players than the ACC does. If this were the NFL, the officials would have reviewed the play by now and Neal would be fined and/or suspended for that play. You simply cannot allow plays that have a reasonable probability of injuring players. There is no question that it was a purpose play. No, Neil didn’t intend to knock Smith senseless; however he did intend to “rattle his teeth”.

roywhite
02-28-2009, 02:10 PM
I find it sad that the NFL does more to protect its players than the ACC does. If this were the NFL, the officials would have reviewed the play by now and Neal would be fined and/or suspended for that play. You simply cannot allow plays that have a reasonable probability of injuring players. There is no question that it was a purpose play. No, Neil didn’t intend to knock Smith senseless; however he did intend to “rattle his teeth”.

Excellent point. We've been discussing this play for a while, but the injury makes it more than a debatable call/no-call. It's a safety/health issue for this particular play and those like it.

Devil in the Blue Dress
02-28-2009, 02:31 PM
Excellent point. We've been discussing this play for a while, but the injury makes it more than a debatable call/no-call. It's a safety/health issue for this particular play and those like it.
Further more, the injury can be quite serious and in a few, rare cases can be fatal. (Roywhite, you are no doubt familiar with the local high school fatality at the beginning of the football season.... caused by a sudden, severe whiplash.)

Ima Facultiwyfe
02-28-2009, 03:33 PM
....where a hard pick was just set by a player and Elmore commented on what a great job the defensive player did of "putting something extra" into it by shoving with his shoulder.

Guess it's a "guy thing", but i just don't get it.
Love, Ima

CDu
02-28-2009, 04:37 PM
I thought I saw lift his elbow up a little to hit him in the head. I don't know if that is legal or not.

He didn't hit Smith in the head. He drilled Smith in the side/shoulder. The concussion was caused by the whiplash, with Smith's head whipping forward due to the collision. I'm pretty sure Smith's head never made contact with Neal's body.

Doesn't change the fact that it was not a legal screen. Nor does it change the fact that Neal definitely intended to make a statement with that screen and clearly had a disregard for Smith's health (not necessarily seeking to injure Smith, but a clear disregard for his health).

dukegirlinsc
03-01-2009, 10:35 AM
According to The Charlotte Observer, Coach K said Nolan could miss up to 12 days...he's not allowed any physical activity until his symptoms are completely gone. Hope to have him back by the ACC tourney.

And, just because I'm curious...was Nolan wearing the earbuds due to the concussion? :confused: As a personal chronic-headache-sufferer, I know loud noises can sometimes trigger headaches...

Kim*
03-01-2009, 10:51 AM
According to The Charlotte Observer, Coach K said Nolan could miss up to 12 days...he's not allowed any physical activity until his symptoms are completely gone. Hope to have him back by the ACC tourney.

And, just because I'm curious...was Nolan wearing the earbuds due to the concussion? :confused: As a personal chronic-headache-sufferer, I know loud noises can sometimes trigger headaches...
Yeah, the earplugs were definitely to keep the noise reduction down. Any way they can find to help alleviate his condition, the better.


And BoC - I gotcha, no worries. Don't fear the reaper. ;)

Travi_K
03-01-2009, 02:59 PM
I have not read all the pages of this Thread so this may have already been addressed but maybe this will give Nolan's body time to rest. It has been speculated on this board several times that his subpar play could have to do with an undisclosed injury. Since he is not allowed any physical activity for a couple weeks, this could be exactly what his body needs to heal up some and take the stress off of any nagging injury he (MAY) have.

Rudy
03-01-2009, 05:33 PM
Let's be clear about one thing here. Neal wanted to nail Smith and clearly he enjoyed the fact that he did (that was why he was smiling in the team's huddle aftwards) as did the crowd. When you are trying to nail someone and you enjoy the fact that you did, even after it is clear the guy is hurt, that is dirty, nasty and has no place in the sport. If a Duke player did what Neal did, I would be just as critical. I have been watching ACC basketball for 30 years and it has only recenlty become acceptable to nail a guy like that on a screen and then have people justify it because it may not have been a foul.


There's a difference between enjoying stunning someone with a legal play and enjoying injuring someone. You are speculating about Neal's state of mind, assuming he knew Smith was injured. Setting a legal pick and stunning the opposing player is a legitimate part of the game. It was more Z's fault than anyone's, a fact that Bilas pointed out along with a guess that Z felt bad about it too.

roywhite
03-01-2009, 05:59 PM
There's a difference between enjoying stunning someone with a legal play and enjoying injuring someone. You are speculating about Neal's state of mind, assuming he knew Smith was injured. Setting a legal pick and stunning the opposing player is a legitimate part of the game. It was more Z's fault than anyone's, a fact that Bilas pointed out along with a guess that Z felt bad about it too.

Do you really believe that was a legal pick, after seeing Neal's positioning and lean which was shown in screen shots? And that a play on which a player suffers a concussion is just part of the game? As has been pointed out, NFL football, a very sport which is made up of violent collisions, is quick to police instances of illegal conduct resulting in player injury or possible injury. College basketball should be doing the same.

We enter the area of opinion here, and your opinion may be set, but IMO this was not a legal play, but a vicious foul.

CDu
03-01-2009, 06:04 PM
There's a difference between enjoying stunning someone with a legal play and enjoying injuring someone. You are speculating about Neal's state of mind, assuming he knew Smith was injured. Setting a legal pick and stunning the opposing player is a legitimate part of the game. It was more Z's fault than anyone's, a fact that Bilas pointed out along with a guess that Z felt bad about it too.

I agree with everything you said except the implication that the screen was a legal one. While it wasn't called a foul, it is very clear that the screen set was not legal (look through the thread to see the video clip).

I have trouble believing Neal was happy he hurt Smith. I agree that it's Zoubek's fault and that Zoubek feels bad. But that's neither here nor there. It was a foul, and it was a dangerous play, and the officials need to do a much better job of officiating these plays in the future for the safety of the players involved.

roywhite
03-01-2009, 08:17 PM
I posted this in the Duke hatred tsunami, but want to connect it to this thread also...

Yikes...anyone else hear Tim Brando's comments ref: Dave Neal and the Nolan Smith KO? Brando and G-man are doing the NC State--Maryland game and Brando was talking about Neal---laughingly said that friends of Neal were coming up to Neal on campus, making contact with him and then pretending to faint.

A little concussion humor in Terp-land, I guess. Ugh.

jv001
03-01-2009, 08:20 PM
Basketball is a no contact sport. Just ask Nolan about that statement. Let's hope Nolan comes back soon. Go Duke!

tendev
03-01-2009, 10:31 PM
There's a difference between enjoying stunning someone with a legal play and enjoying injuring someone. You are speculating about Neal's state of mind, assuming he knew Smith was injured. Setting a legal pick and stunning the opposing player is a legitimate part of the game. It was more Z's fault than anyone's, a fact that Bilas pointed out along with a guess that Z felt bad about it too.


Stunning someone? I guess Nolan is out indefinitely because he is still mildly stunned.

My point was not to debate whether it was a legal pick. My point was that it was an unnecessarily dangerous pick as demonstrated by the outcome. Even one could conclude that it was legal (and I don't), being legal does not justify it. Yes, I think he enjoyed it and according to Tim Brando who did the MD/NCSU game today is getting alot of pats on the back on campus for it.

flyingdutchdevil
03-01-2009, 11:38 PM
Stunning someone? I guess Nolan is out indefinitely because he is still mildly stunned.

My point was not to debate whether it was a legal pick. My point was that it was an unnecessarily dangerous pick as demonstrated by the outcome. Even one could conclude that it was legal (and I don't), being legal does not justify it. Yes, I think he enjoyed it and according to Tim Brando who did the MD/NCSU game today is getting alot of pats on the back on campus for it.

An unnecessarily dangerous pick as demonstrated by the outcome? So if someone goes up to contest a shot and accidently injures his opponent, it was an unnecessarily dangerous play to make? Come on...

In all honesty, does anyone actually think that Neal intended to injure Smith? I despise Maryland as well, but not all their players spawn from the depths of hell (a lot of them do no doubt ;)) It was a hard pick (I'm not at all going to justify the legality of it), but hard picks happen all the time and Smith was downright unlucky.

gep
03-01-2009, 11:48 PM
I have not read all the pages of this Thread so this may have already been addressed but maybe this will give Nolan's body time to rest. It has been speculated on this board several times that his subpar play could have to do with an undisclosed injury. Since he is not allowed any physical activity for a couple weeks, this could be exactly what his body needs to heal up some and take the stress off of any nagging injury he (MAY) have.

(I hope this appropriate in this thread...) Not only is Nolan getting time to rest himself, but Elliot is getting major PT knowing that he's Duke's option now... and that may give Elliot the confidence to go forward... even more than he's done so far in the last few games. It's like when Carlos went down in 2001... Casey, Reggie, and Chris were put in positions that they were not really accustomed, but performed admirably. And when Carlos returned... Duke's better, and NC:)

roywhite
03-02-2009, 12:01 AM
An unnecessarily dangerous pick as demonstrated by the outcome? So if someone goes up to contest a shot and accidently injures his opponent, it was an unnecessarily dangerous play to make? Come on...

In all honesty, does anyone actually think that Neal intended to injure Smith? I despise Maryland as well, but not all their players spawn from the depths of hell (a lot of them do no doubt ;)) It was a hard pick (I'm not at all going to justify the legality of it), but hard picks happen all the time and Smith was downright unlucky.

Well, let's see. It was a hard pick set by a 6'7" 263# player against Smith; I personally think it was illegal and meant to send a message, and many other posters seem to agree. There was a pretty serious consequence to this "hard pick", a concussion that caused Smith to miss possibly three games.

Is there a normal basketball play that causes a concussion? When a shot is contested, as you suggest? Head injuries are pretty rare in basketball, and usually result from an undercut and a bad fall.

Just bad luck?

More like a vicious and illegal pick resulting in injury.

LetItBD08
03-02-2009, 12:10 AM
So if someone goes up to contest a shot and accidently injures his opponent, it was an unnecessarily dangerous play to make? Come on...

I'm starting to see some similarities between this incident and the Henderson-Hansbrough debacle a couple of years ago. (I apologize if this has already been mentioned on the thread. I sifted through quickly.)

-A really physical play injures an important player.
-One fan base argues that it was a non-dirty play that was simply the byproduct of a hard, competitive style.
-Said fan base gains a mildly disgraceful pride (perhaps as conciliation) in what happened even though their team lost the hard fought game. (I was a junior at the time of the H-H incident, and there was rather irrational excitement around campus regarding that play.)
-The other fan base claims the play was premeditated/intentional and believes that it could prove it by slowing down the replay frame by frame and watching it over and over again to see the 'culprit's' real intentions.
-The player who committed the hard act's subsequent mannerisms are dissected to death by the opposing fan base. I saw a mention of Neal smiling in the huddle after the incident in this thread. The poster used this as evidence that Neal enjoyed what he did. Likewise, UNC fans thought that G's cool strut to the locker room was evidence of him being pleased with what he (in my firm opinion, accidentally) did. I'm sure most people on the board, as did I, saw his strut more as a confused mannerism as to why he was ejected.

Just calling what I see. Even if you don't agree with me (and I'm sure there are compelling cases against my argument), please have some perspective.

roywhite
03-02-2009, 12:16 AM
I'm starting to see some similarities between this incident and the Henderson-Hansbrough debacle a couple of years ago. (I apologize if this has already been mentioned on the thread. I sifted through quickly.)

-A really physical play injures an important player.
-One fan base argues that it was a non-dirty play that was simply the byproduct of a hard, competitive style.
-Said fan base gains a mildly disgraceful pride (perhaps as conciliation) in what happened even though their team lost the hard fought game. (I was a junior at the time of the H-H incident, and there was rather irrational excitement around campus regarding that play.)
-The other fan base claims the play was premeditated/intentional and believes that it could prove it by slowing down the replay frame by frame and watching it over and over again to see the 'culprit's' real intentions.
-The player who committed the hard act's subsequent mannerisms are dissected to death by the opposing fan base. I saw a mention of Neal smiling in the huddle after the incident in this thread. The poster used this as evidence that Neal enjoyed what he did. Likewise, UNC fans thought that G's cool strut to the locker room was evidence of him being pleased with what he (in my firm opinion, accidentally) did. I'm sure most people on the board, as did I, saw his strut more as a confused mannerism as to why he was ejected.

Just calling what I see. Even if you don't agree with me (and I'm sure there are compelling cases against my argument), please have some perspective.

The consequence to Gerald Henderson of the play vs Hansbrough was a foul, an ejection, and a 1-game suspension.

What was the consequence to Maryland player Dave Neal? An "attaboy" from the fanbase?

LetItBD08
03-02-2009, 12:37 AM
I'm talking about fan base reaction not the merits of the officials' calls. I thought G's ejection was unfair and incorrect. I also believe that the no-call on the Neal play might have been the correct one. Like everyone else on this thread, I am very sad at what happened, and I wish Nolan a speedy and healthy recovery.

And like I said, there was an "attaboy" from Duke fans at G that surprised and upset me. Although I can't prove it, I'd imagine it's not to the extent of Maryland's fan base's reaction. This is strictly determined, however, by anecdotal evidence and already established perceptions of both bases.

Onlyduke
03-02-2009, 08:52 AM
Yes, I think he enjoyed it and according to Tim Brando who did the MD/NCSU game today is getting alot of pats on the back on campus for it.[/QUOTE]

Typical Maryland fan. Sad .... very sad.