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Rudy
02-23-2009, 11:18 AM
One relates to assists: Can only one assist be awarded per basket? When a basket has resulted clearly from two good passes, is it only the pass immediately before the bucket that gets the assist? Say for instance a great outlet pass followed by a short pass or alley oop to the rim, like the electrifying play in Cameron against Maryland? IIRC hockey stats allow more than one assist per bucket, does basketball?

The second question relates to rebounds. I recall in the not too distant past that 1/2 rebounds were awarded, in the situation where one player intentionally tips the ball to one of his teammates. I thought it was scored as 1/2 rebound each. Is only the player who controls the ball given the rebound stat? This was implied by the Battier article and I haven't seen anyone credited with half rebounds in awhile.

A third area relates to turnovers. When an offensive player with the ball commits a charge, does he get a turnover as well as a foul? Also, when a player is tied up with a held ball, does he get a turnover? Does the answer to that question depend on whether the other team has the possession arrow and therefore receives the ball on the call?

pfrduke
02-23-2009, 11:23 AM
One relates to assists: Can only one assist be awarded per basket? When a basket has resulted clearly from two good passes, is it only the pass immediately before the bucket that gets the assist? Say for instance a great outlet pass followed by a short pass or alley oop to the rim, like the electrifying play in Cameron against Maryland? IIRC hockey stats allow more than one assist per bucket, does basketball?

The second question relates to rebounds. I recall in the not too distant past that 1/2 rebounds were awarded, in the situation where one player intentionally tips the ball to one of his teammates. I thought it was scored as 1/2 rebound each. Is only the player who controls the ball given the rebound stat? This was implied by the Battier article and I haven't seen anyone credited with half rebounds in awhile.

A third area relates to turnovers. When an offensive player with the ball commits a charge, does he get a turnover as well as a foul? Also, when a player is tied up with a held ball, does he get a turnover? Does the answer to that question depend on whether the other team has the possession arrow and therefore receives the ball on the call?

1) Basketball rewards only one assist per bucket, and only the most recent pass.

2) I don't recall 1/2 rebounds being awarded at any point, but regardless, they aren't awarded now. The player that secures the rebound is almost always given credit.

3) A charge counts as both a turnover and an offensive foul. A tie-up only becomes a turnover if the other team has the arrow (if your team keeps the ball, you obviously haven't turned it over).

jjasper0729
02-23-2009, 12:54 PM
answered for me.. thanks...

soccer also allows multiple assists on a goal. (also, as an aside, we didn't have that many assists last night compared to baskets... a little disconcerting)

rebounds: generally, yes, the person that controls the ball is usually given the rebound, unless there is an obvious tap with deliberate intent by someone that doesn't "secure" the ball, but pushes it out to a teammate (a-la if Lance goes up for a rebound, can't get it, but directs the ball over to Jon in a controlled manner, Lance would get the board).

pfrduke got #3 for me..

now.. assists and rebounds are done at each site so i can only speak for the duke home game statistics as to the judgement on assists and rebounds and how they are given.

Chitowndevil
02-23-2009, 01:06 PM
You may find this a useful reference:
http://www.ncaapublications.com/Uploads/PDF/2008_basketball_stats_manual9f83b0f5-3d9b-462c-9c2f-c5afd585a02e.pdf

Nice answers by pfrduke. The only thing I'd add is to your rebound question. 1/2 rebounds are not awarded but bball rules do say there must be a rebound on every missed FGA or FTA. Since sometimes there is not a single player who controls the ball (e.g., the ball is tipped out of bounds), so the NCAA has "team rebounds" and "deadball rebounds" as a fudge factor, with the distinction being essentially whether the ball was touched before it becomes dead. They (or the NBA) may have handled this distinction differently at some point in the past (but I still don't recall 1/2 rebounds ever being awarded in the college game).

pfrduke
02-23-2009, 01:23 PM
You may find this a useful reference:
http://www.ncaapublications.com/Uploads/PDF/2008_basketball_stats_manual9f83b0f5-3d9b-462c-9c2f-c5afd585a02e.pdf

Nice answers by pfrduke. The only thing I'd add is to your rebound question. 1/2 rebounds are not awarded but bball rules do say there must be a rebound on every missed FGA or FTA. Since sometimes there is not a single player who controls the ball (e.g., the ball is tipped out of bounds), so the NCAA has "team rebounds" and "deadball rebounds" as a fudge factor, with the distinction being essentially whether the ball was touched before it becomes dead. They (or the NBA) may have handled this distinction differently at some point in the past (but I still don't recall 1/2 rebounds ever being awarded in the college game).

Actually, that's not entirely right. If a guy airballs a shot straight out of bounds, without being touched, it's still a "team" defensive rebound. Deadball rebounds only arise in three scenarios: 1) foul in the act of rebounding; 2) 35 second violation where the buzzer goes off while a shot is in the air but does not draw iron (and really, I'm not 100% sure how it works here); and 3) missed free throws that are not live (e.g., first shot of a two-shot foul). Deadball rebounds don't actually get credited to a player or team in the final box score as rebounds, but team rebounds do.

Rudy
02-23-2009, 01:28 PM
Thanks for the link. That will be handy.

I was curious about baskets made at the wrong end and in some circumstances the team is awarded the statistical basket rather than any individual player. I used to think it was credited to the closest offensive player.

Back in the days when all held balls resulted in jump balls, occasionally players would forget which direction they were supposed to be going, particularly just after the beginning of the second half when the ends changed. I'm not sure I ever saw it happen in college but I saw it more than once in h.s. ball. I still remember a teammate who took off for the wrong basket after the second half tip-off. My screaming at him made him miss the shot. He got his own rebound but was pretty red faced.

Chitowndevil
02-23-2009, 02:40 PM
Actually, that's not entirely right. If a guy airballs a shot straight out of bounds, without being touched, it's still a "team" defensive rebound. Deadball rebounds only arise in three scenarios: 1) foul in the act of rebounding; 2) 35 second violation where the buzzer goes off while a shot is in the air but does not draw iron (and really, I'm not 100% sure how it works here); and 3) missed free throws that are not live (e.g., first shot of a two-shot foul). Deadball rebounds don't actually get credited to a player or team in the final box score as rebounds, but team rebounds do.


Hmm. Not saying you're wrong, but this actively contradicts my reading of the manual I liked to above. From Section 3, Article 1(b):

A team rebound is credited to the team that is entitled to the ball for a throw-in if the ball has gone out of bounds after a missed goal but before there was player control. However, this does not include cases where the ball is out of bounds because it passes over the backboard or touches the supports or back of the backboard, the ceiling, or overhead equipment or supports, unless the ball was touched by a player after the missed goal but before the ball was out of bounds.

And then later, in article (d)

If the ball becomes dead before it meets the requirement for either an individual or a team rebound, then a dead-ball rebound is credited

My reading of this is that if, say, a free throw shooter airballed one over the backboard, it's definitely a deadball rebound. In the more common case where a freeball is airballed short of the rim, it's ambiguous, but the following leads me to believe it would be scored a deadball rebound as well:

Why keep dead-ball rebounds? Because team rebounds reflect team rebounding ability, while dead-ball rebounds do not. In national rankings, individual and team rebounds are included, but dead-ball rebounds are not.

Of course, bottom line is it is almost all official scorer's discretion, and there are always going to be a ton of conventions that such-and-such a play is scored in a particular way. So it wouldn't shock me if an airballed FT short of the rim is scored as a team rebound, but I'd still say that runs contrary to the spirit of the rules.

pfrduke
02-23-2009, 04:35 PM
Hmm. Not saying you're wrong, but this actively contradicts my reading of the manual I liked to above. From Section 3, Article 1(b):


And then later, in article (d)


My reading of this is that if, say, a free throw shooter airballed one over the backboard, it's definitely a deadball rebound. In the more common case where a freeball is airballed short of the rim, it's ambiguous, but the following leads me to believe it would be scored a deadball rebound as well:


Of course, bottom line is it is almost all official scorer's discretion, and there are always going to be a ton of conventions that such-and-such a play is scored in a particular way. So it wouldn't shock me if an airballed FT short of the rim is scored as a team rebound, but I'd still say that runs contrary to the spirit of the rules.

I think we're saying the same thing. A free throw isn't "live" for a rebound until it hits rim - an airballed free throw isn't actually rebounded "live," because the play must be whistled dead and the ball given to the opponent regardless of which team collects the miss.

I forgot about the ball off the shotclock, which I agree would be a deadball rebound. What section 1(b) seems to say is that if a shot goes rim-shot clock, it's a deadball rebound, but if a shot goes rim-player-shot clock, it's a rebound to the player and then a turnover.

I would still credit an untouched, live ball miss as a team rebound. If a guy misses a shot, and the defense boxes out well enough that the ball gets out of bounds without the offense recovering it, that's a credit to the defensive team's rebounding ability, and should be recorded as such.

allenmurray
02-23-2009, 04:44 PM
Back in the days when all held balls resulted in jump balls, occasionally players would forget which direction they were supposed to be going, particularly just after the beginning of the second half when the ends changed. I'm not sure I ever saw it happen in college but I saw it more than once in h.s. ball. I still remember a teammate who took off for the wrong basket after the second half tip-off. My screaming at him made him miss the shot. He got his own rebound but was pretty red faced.

My youngest son did that when he was 9. We were ahead by one point in a close game against a much better team (they had beaten us the other two times we played them). His mistake (off a scrum for a loose ball) put the other team ahead for the first time in the game. He was so horrified he started crying and asked me to take him out of the game. I called time-out but told him I wouldn't take him out because it was just a mistake and I don't pull paleyrs our for mistakes (not at 9 year old rec legue ball at least). He then made four consecutive steals and scored on all of them. His initial mistake was a huge motivator for him. I think at that point he was determined that we would win no matter what so he didn't have to feel as though he "lost" the game.

Anothe time I saw a HS player do the same thing. He picked up a loose ball and started on a break-away lay-up. His much faster team-mate caught up with him and "fouled" him hard enough that the ball few out of bounds. The official actually blew the whistle as though he was going to call a foul before he realized both were on the same team. He of course just awarded the other team the ball on the out of bounds

Rudy
02-23-2009, 05:09 PM
My youngest son did that when he was 9. We were ahead by one point in a close game against a much better team (they had beaten us the other two times we played them). His mistake (off a scrum for a loose ball) put the other team ahead for the first time in the game. He was so horrified he started crying and asked me to take him out of the game. I called time-out but told him I wouldn't take him out because it was just a mistake and I don't pull paleyrs our for mistakes (not at 9 year old rec legue ball at least). He then made four consecutive steals and scored on all of them. His initial mistake was a huge motivator for him. I think at that point he was determined that we would win no matter what so he didn't have to feel as though he "lost" the game.

Anothe time I saw a HS player do the same thing. He picked up a loose ball and started on a break-away lay-up. His much faster team-mate caught up with him and "fouled" him hard enough that the ball few out of bounds. The official actually blew the whistle as though he was going to call a foul before he realized both were on the same team. He of course just awarded the other team the ball on the out of bounds

Great lesson for your son. On the HS game I hope the players and the ref could all laugh it off. Funny things happen in games sometimes.

allenmurray
02-23-2009, 05:30 PM
Great lesson for your son. On the HS game I hope the players and the ref could all laugh it off. Funny things happen in games sometimes.

I actually know a number of refs that have a great sense of humor. Just last year about this time, after the regular season was over, my oldest son (who was playing for his middle school at the time) was involved in a staff vs. 8th graders game as a fund-raiser for the school. I got there just before game time. A ref who he had "battled" with during both school and rec league ball (they each had real respect for each other, but would go at it) had been hired to call the game. Unknown to anybody except Sam, the ref, and the coach of the student team, Sam and the ref made arrangements ahead of time that the ref would call a "questionable" foul on Sam, Sam would argue back, they woud jaw back and forth, and the ref would eject Sam from the game.

This all happened about 25 seconds into the game - and as I said, no one (including me) had any idea. The ref ejected Sam, Sam took off his jersey and threw it on the floor, then stomped out of the gym. You could have heard a pin drop. About 20 seconds later Sam comes back in, he and Beasley (the ref) hug each other, and crack up laughing, and the game continues. The kids won by 4 (probably aided by a few calls from the ref, who knew that in a situation like this the kids are supposed to win). It is perhaps my favorite memory of his middle school basketball years, and something I don't expect to see repeated at (the much more serious) high school level.