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Oriole Way
02-20-2009, 06:26 AM
The original title of this thread was going to be "the case for using Jon Scheyer at the point", but I didn't have time to make this post before the St. John's game. It turns out K made the exact changes I recommended for this team to turn things around (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=259199#post259199) following the loss to BC. They came a few games too late, but better late than never.

I have been calling for Scheyer to man the point since the loss to Clemson (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=253653#post253653), even getting into an animated debate with some posters (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=253685#post253685) who disagreed with me. I believe Duke needs to continue using him as a point guard in order to maximize our offensive efficiency and quite possibly turn around our season.

I had several thoughts on moving Jon over to the point in particular saved from a PM conversation I had with another poster, and meant to post them prior to last night's game. Since I really hope that K sticks with Jon at the point for the remainder of the season, or at least until/if Nolan Smith drastically improves, I would like to share my thoughts for the advantages of the move not only for Duke, but also for Jon Scheyer's future, and see what other posters think about what Duke needs to do in order to improve.

Forgive the excessive length of this missive, but it accurately expresses my thoughts about this team's problems.

This is what I wrote via PM two weeks ago regarding our PG problems and rotation issues:

Here's my thinking. Our problems this year are largely offensive. Our offense is so atrocious that it negatively affects our defense. It's not just Nolan, don't get me wrong - Singler, Henderson, and even Scheyer make unacceptable turnovers which lead to fast breaks, negating our ability to take advantage of our pressure half-court defense. But if Nolan is not doing a good job handling the ball, and he's not even playing like a traditional point to begin with, you should use a more effective ball-handler who cuts down on turnovers. For me, that would obviously be Jon.

I completely agree that Nolan is a better penetrator than Jon. But Nolan just isn't driving to the rim enough. The toughest part of the schedule has arrived, and we've started losing. It's only going to get tougher. If Nolan doesn't drive to the rim, what difference does it make if Jon isn't as good at something which Nolan barely does to begin with?

UNC is going to eat us alive if Nolan continues to man the point. And to have any shot of a #1 seed, we need to beat Carolina at least once. We have the talent to do it, but we need an "A" game (not turning it over in particular) and we need to revamp our offense completely.

Here's a problem I have with how K has handled the team, which frustrates me and ties in with what we're talking about. The usage of Elliot Williams and Miles Plumlee, but in particular Williams. I think he has been criminally underused, as he is probably our third most talented player behind Henderson and Singler. I have bemoaned his lack of playing time for months on the boards. People like Jumbo have reasonably questioned why he deserves time, because he hasn't played well. But I think it's been hard for him to get acclimated to college play and establish some confidence because K yanks him literally after 2 minutes, after any missed defensive assignment or ill-advised shot. He almost never gets meaningful minutes in second halves against quality opponents. The moral of this rant is that I have always envisioned Williams as a starter on this team, and he would be a part of the defensive solution if Scheyer would take over the point. Just because Scheyer plays PG doesn't mean he has to guard the opponent's PG. Williams could possibly do that. He is very quick and has great height and length that would give almost any PG problems. Nolan would also guard the opposing PG when he's in the game. Unfortunately, WIlliams hasn't gotten any time to sort out his defense. That's why I am upset that K rarely played him earlier in the season against so many weak opponents (not garbage time playing with the bottom of our bench, I'm talking in the first half with the starters when the outcome of the game is still in question).

So, to answer your question of who would start instead of Nolan, it would be McClure. But it should be Williams.

Realistically, Duke would just have to rely on it's help defense to help Jon guard opposing PG's if McClure is the new starter. McClure makes us better defensively, and I like him better with Scheyer, Singer, Henderson, and Zoubs/Thomas anyway because he's on the floor with three offensive threats, instead of the usual two when he comes in with Paulus (not a lineup I like because offensively it's terrible).

The other thing to consider is that Jon is actually a fringe NBA prospect. If he can play the point and improve his PG skills, he could actually help his chances of playing in the NBA. The player I think is most similar to Jon in the NBA is Chris Quinn, who gets significant minutes for the Heat. Quinn is a much better shooter, but Jon has some similar skills. They have comparable builds, but Jon is actually a few inches taller, which gives him a big advantage if he wants to play as a pro. Anyway, Quinn played the 2 guard at Notre Dame, just like Jon does. Quinn would back up Chris Thomas, and then became the starting PG his senior year out of necessity. He changed positions but flourished, and now he's the backup PG for the Heat. I am positive Jon can follow a similar path, but K is going to need to think outside the box on this one.

Anyway, sorry for the long rant. Those are just some thoughts, but would like to hear what you think.

roywhite
02-20-2009, 07:03 AM
No question that the use of Scheyer at PG was effective last night. He brings a lot to the position---patience, ability to size up the situation and defense, driving ability, good ball handling, and ability to draw contact to shoot fouls.

I'm not sure the position change will last the rest of the year, but it may. Seeing this play out is one more reason to be excited about playing a quality team like the Deacs Sunday.

mgtr
02-20-2009, 07:50 AM
Moving Scheyer to point and Williams to shooting guard was absolutely effective last night. I liked Bob Knight's allusion to our starting five forwards, who are somewhat interchangeable. That lets them switch with little fear of the "wrong" person guarding another player. I was also happy to see Plumlee get some minutes.
Overall, the experiment tried last night deserves to be continued, at least so long as it proves effective.

doctorhook
02-20-2009, 07:53 AM
Putting Jon at point adds the benefit of moving Nolan to the wing, where he belongs. If Nolan is going to get out of his funk, it will likely happen with him on the wing. Rotate Nolan, G, E on the wings and let Paulus spell Jon at the point. Doc

mgtr
02-20-2009, 07:58 AM
I just looked at the box score, and I see that Jon was the only Duke player with 20 minutes of PT or more that had zero turnovers. That is great. He also had only one assist, which is not so great, but that should come with time.

gw67
02-20-2009, 08:11 AM
Oriole Way - Everyone is entitled to an opinion and I agree with much of your argument but it is clear from this and other posts that you care less about Scheyer playing the point than getting more minutes for your favorite player, Williams. I liked what I saw last night from Williams. He stayed within the team concept and, because of his size, allows the Devils to switch at every screen. He has shown that he can rebound and finish on the break. But your thoughts that he has been "criminally underused" and " is our third best player" are emotionally charged and undefensible, IMO. He didn't play because the players ahead of him were playing better. I have said many times that I like Williams' potential and if he can get some playing experience this year, then it will help him in the future and, hopefully help the Devils during the rest of the season.

As a Duke fan, I hope Coach K has found a winning combination but a seven point victory over a weak opponent doesn't necessarily mean that Wake, UNC and other ACC opponents will roll over and play dead.

By the way, as an Oriole fan since I was in college in the 60's, I've always liked your name. After 20 years of anything but the Oriole Way, let's hope that things are beginning to change for the Birds.

gw67

Oriole Way
02-20-2009, 08:24 AM
Oriole Way - Everyone is entitled to an opinion and I agree with much of your argument but it is clear from this and other posts that you care less about Scheyer playing the point than getting more minutes for your favorite player, Williams. I liked what I saw last night from Williams. He stayed within the team concept and, because of his size, allows the Devils to switch at every screen. He has shown that he can rebound and finish on the break. But your thoughts that he has been "criminally underused" and " is our third best player" are emotionally charged and undefensible, IMO. He didn't play because the players ahead of him were playing better. I have said many times that I like Williams' potential and if he can get some playing experience this year, then it will help him in the future and, hopefully help the Devils during the rest of the season.

As a Duke fan, I hope Coach K has found a winning combination but a seven point victory over a weak opponent doesn't necessarily mean that Wake, UNC and other ACC opponents will roll over and play dead.

By the way, as an Oriole fan since I was in college in the 60's, I've always liked your name. After 20 years of anything but the Oriole Way, let's hope that things are beginning to change for the Birds.

gw67

Absolutely agree about the O's. Being an Orioles fan will be worth it this year just for Matt Wieters, if nothing else. He is going to be a special, special player.

While I want to see more time for Williams, I have been extremely vocal for Scheyer moving to the point. So I'm honestly surprised you would say I "could care less" about moving Jon to the point, and am confused as to how you reach that conclusion. I spent a lot of energy extensively defending my opinion about Jon's ability to handle the point in the Clemson post-game thread (especially in a heated back-and-forth debate with FireOgilvie). I feel very strongly about his ability to handle the position and the benefits of him doing so, especially with Nolan struggling so badly.

And to be accurate, I said Williams is our third most talented player, not our third best player. I also think he should have gotten literally almost twice as many minutes as he's gotten thus far. When a player who should be playing 20 minutes a game is playing only 10 minutes a game, I think that's being criminally underused. At least I can make a reasonable case that my opinion is defensible.

keithg
02-20-2009, 08:33 AM
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/rs/blogpost/4493493/

Anybody agree that Coach K needs to quit making such hyperbolic and off the cuff comments...just 3 games in and Greg's back to playing 5 minutes a game. It just comes off real phony! More like a short-term motivational ploy than any designation or anything that can be built upon.

Certainly Coach has the right to play anyone he wants, but please stop with leadership bs.

Maybe I'm too emotional because Greg's my favorite player.

mgtr
02-20-2009, 08:33 AM
I like Jon at the point, regardless of how much time Williams gets. doctorhook suggested using Greg to relieve Jon at the point, and using Nolan as a wing, which is his more natural position. Worth a shot.

gw67
02-20-2009, 08:43 AM
OW - I apologize for being grumpy. Having coached baseball for many years and catching my share of criticism from parents and fans, I just thought that the use of the term, "criminally underused", was unfair criticism and over the line but it is not a big deal.

It will be interesting to see how this line-up change works out. My view of the change may be different from both you and coach Knight. IMO, we don't have a point guard in the traditional sense. Scheyer brings the ball up but we really have five forwards and use Singler as a point forward to get the offense started. The change to Williams primarily affects the team's ability to switch on defense and also gives the team a big guard to help with rebounding against the taller teams.

gw67

Matches
02-20-2009, 08:45 AM
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/rs/blogpost/4493493/

Anybody agree that Coach K needs to quit making such hyperbolic and off the cuff comments...just 3 games in and Greg's back to playing 5 minutes a game. It just comes off real phony! More like a short-term motivational ploy than any designation or anything that can be built upon.

Certainly Coach has the right to play anyone he wants, but please stop with leadership bs.

Maybe I'm too emotional because Greg's my favorite player.

Clearly that comment came back to haunt him, but it's not like K is prone to hyperbole. It looked to a lot of us like Greg had claimed (or re-claimed) that role after the Miami game. That performance appears to have been an aberration, though, and putting him back in the starting lineup coincided with a loss of identity for the team on defense. This team badly needed a shakeup.

whereinthehellami
02-20-2009, 08:50 AM
Scheyer is not a PG. The PG position will get exposed whenever Duke plays a decent team with a PG (most of the ACC). I think Duke needs to use a combination of Smith/Paulus and direct them to attack the defense. No dribbling around away from the basket setting up screens for some half baked outside shot. Make the defense collapse and dish towards the baseline, hoop, or as a last resort the man on the 3 point line. I want to see more passing and quick penetration for mid range shots.

The1Bluedevil
02-20-2009, 09:28 AM
If Jon runs the point on Sunday then K feels it gives his team the best chance to win. Which is enough of a reason for me to support the move. If he moves back to the 2 and Duke is careless with the ball then the St. John's game was a one time deal.

NSDukeFan
02-20-2009, 09:46 AM
"criminally underused"
I hope K doesn't have to go to court to defend these charges during either of the tournaments.

Dukerati
02-20-2009, 09:50 AM
I think one point everyone is missing with the switch to Scheyer at the point was how it impacted the rest of the team. How many points did Greg and Nolan score last night? How many assists did they have? So while this move may form a good lineup, it could be argued that it still hurts the team overall by turning Greg and Nolan into non-entities-- a potentially disastrous turn of events. Was it effective against St. Johns? Sure. Is St.Johns an outstanding defensive team? Not so much. What happens when a tough defensive team starts exerting consistent pressure? I worry because as smart as Jon is with the ball, I'm not prepared to say he's a better ball handler than Greg or Nolan. Part of a coaches job is to maximize his assets to form the best team possible. I have a hard time envisioning a great Duke team without Nolan or Greg at the point.

Rich
02-20-2009, 09:55 AM
Oriole,

You deserve a lot of credit for your "out of the box" thinking and the fact that the coaching staff acted in the way that you opined about. While I think Jon can handle the pressure of bringing the ball up, my biggest concern with this lineup is on the defensive end. I'm just not sure that he can stay in front of the quick guards that have been eating us up. Plus, point guard play becomes so important in the tourney and I'm concerned that this lineup will not provide the on-the-ball pressure that we need for the defense to click. That being said, I agree that Smith and Paulus haven't been providing that defense anyway so it can't hurt to make this change and see how we handle it. Maybe we all have to just accept the fact that we don't have the personnel this year to stop PG penetration.

jv001
02-20-2009, 10:23 AM
Oriole,

You deserve a lot of credit for your "out of the box" thinking and the fact that the coaching staff acted in the way that you opined about. While I think Jon can handle the pressure of bringing the ball up, my biggest concern with this lineup is on the defensive end. I'm just not sure that he can stay in front of the quick guards that have been eating us up. Plus, point guard play becomes so important in the tourney and I'm concerned that this lineup will not provide the on-the-ball pressure that we need for the defense to click. That being said, I agree that Smith and Paulus haven't been providing that defense anyway so it can't hurt to make this change and see how we handle it. Maybe we all have to just accept the fact that we don't have the personnel this year to stop PG penetration.

Jon did not guard the St. John's point guard. Elliot guarded him and was pretty effective doing it. Nolan plays decent defense on the ball but Greg is bad at it. His man usually gets a running start to the basket that leads to a score and/or a foul on one of our big men. We can't afford to have Kyle in foul trouble and that happens a lot when Greg is in the lineup. Greg's greatest asset is his shooting and if he's not shooting or not shooting well he is a liability. I hate to day that but it's the truth. I like the lineup switch and hope it continues. If Elliot had to earn the PT in practice, Greg should also. Go Duke!

omar
02-20-2009, 10:26 AM
Doesn't a win make waking up the next morning so pleasant! Angst is shelved... for a while. Orchids to K for the reshuffle. For those, like me and others, who have posted that EW & Miles needed more PT, how sweet it was. Let us temper our enthusiasm. We should not use St Johns or Maryland as the barometer of our effectiveness. Wake & NC stand at the ready not to mention possible Big East foes. Bring it on.

dukelifer
02-20-2009, 10:59 AM
Scheyer is definitely not the ideal PG- but he may be the best person to run the team. My sense is that Duke has been playing a bit without a head- someone who can calm the team and take control in key moments. I believe that Scheyer has the highest bball IQ on the team. He is clever and careful with the ball and seems to make the right play more times than not. He can drive and he can shoot and his a very steady free throw shooter. So in many ways, he is the ideal person to run the team. He is not a world class point guard- but Duke does not have that anyway. But his skills and abilities also challenge the other teams guards as well. As for Smith and Paulus- they did not play well yesterday. Nolan is really in a sophomore slump. Paulus will have his moments. But Nolan WILL get better- you can mark that down. He just needs to find his game within this system.

InSpades
02-20-2009, 10:59 AM
Scheyer is not a PG. The PG position will get exposed whenever Duke plays a decent team with a PG (most of the ACC). I think Duke needs to use a combination of Smith/Paulus and direct them to attack the defense. No dribbling around away from the basket setting up screens for some half baked outside shot. Make the defense collapse and dish towards the baseline, hoop, or as a last resort the man on the 3 point line. I want to see more passing and quick penetration for mid range shots.

Have you watched the team so far this season? We've already had trouble covering PGs when we did start Smith or Paulus.

"Direct them to attack the defense"? Do you think Greg Paulus doesn't want to attack the defense? It's just not what he does. Nolan isn't very good at it either. He can do it, but more often than not he does it off of turnovers and getting passes in the flow of the offense.

It will be interesting to see how that starting lineup stands up against pressure defense, but we atleast should give it a chance to see how it works. I think playing Paulus or Smith just because they are "typical" point guards doesn't make a lot of sense.

DukeVu
02-20-2009, 11:11 AM
Lost another big (16 pt) lead with lazy ball delay game, last second poor shot selection shooting and atrocious end of game foul shooting. Not really stellar against a team playing with a losing record. A great deal of the lead loss came with 3 starters fouled out. Yes, Jumbo, we do squander 15 point leads.

Saratoga2
02-20-2009, 11:19 AM
Absolutely agree about the O's. Being an Orioles fan will be worth it this year just for Matt Wieters, if nothing else. He is going to be a special, special player.

While I want to see more time for Williams, I have been extremely vocal for Scheyer moving to the point. So I'm honestly surprised you would say I "could care less" about moving Jon to the point, and am confused as to how you reach that conclusion. I spent a lot of energy extensively defending my opinion about Jon's ability to handle the point in the Clemson post-game thread (especially in a heated back-and-forth debate with FireOgilvie). I feel very strongly about his ability to handle the position and the benefits of him doing so, especially with Nolan struggling so badly.

And to be accurate, I said Williams is our third most talented player, not our third best player. I also think he should have gotten literally almost twice as many minutes as he's gotten thus far. When a player who should be playing 20 minutes a game is playing only 10 minutes a game, I think that's being criminally underused. At least I can make a reasonable case that my opinion is defensible.

I too have been advocating moving Scheyer to point and playing Williams for his quickness, length and agility on defense and for his ability to slash. Arguments against him seemed to be that he made mistakes at times. I don't buy the argument of holding players up to some perfect model but instead to what other guards bring to the party. Neither the play of Paulus nor Smith has been outstanding of late so going to Williams for a try was the smart thing for coach K to do. What we saw in Williams was good active defense with good switching and good ball pressure. Sure he made mistakes but so did Henderson and Singler. He also got 11 points very efficiently. What I liked most is that he didn't force plays offensively but took what was there. Good combination with Scheyer and Williams and Smith definitely is an excellent talent and should concentrate on defense and let the offense come to him.

What we also saw last night was what Plumlee can bring. With his size and mobility he can play effectively inside for defense and rebounding and he has offensive skills to pick up a few points around the basket. His main issue is the tendency to foul. He needs to be compared to Thomas, Zoubek and McClure. I hope to see him against Wake, where his size and mobility will be needed.

ncexnyc
02-20-2009, 11:32 AM
As has already been stated Jon doesn't have to guard the opposition's PG, that job falls to Williams.

The key for Williams is the same for all young defenders and that is to remember they don't have to steal the ball on every play. I remember that was an issue Coach K had early on with Sean Dockery. Once Sean realized that fact he became a very solid PG defender.

Jeffrey
02-20-2009, 11:46 AM
I still believe that Nolan has the skills to be a top-notch PG. I would try to rebuild Nolan for not only March but next year. I'd start Nolan.

I wasn't as impressed last night as most. IMO, St. Joe's is not an overly impressive team this year and they kept the game to a single digit win. I don't think last night's play would have resulted in a win if we had been playing UNC or Wake.

mr. synellinden
02-20-2009, 12:13 PM
Scheyer is not a PG. The PG position will get exposed whenever Duke plays a decent team with a PG (most of the ACC). I think Duke needs to use a combination of Smith/Paulus and direct them to attack the defense. No dribbling around away from the basket setting up screens for some half baked outside shot. Make the defense collapse and dish towards the baseline, hoop, or as a last resort the man on the 3 point line. I want to see more passing and quick penetration for mid range shots.

I agree with the premise, but the problem is that neither Paulus nor Smith has shown the ability to penetrate the defense off the dribble and either get to the basket, create shots for themselves or teammates or get fouled.

We all want to see more passing and breaking down of the defense. I think a lineup that includes Singler, Henderson, EW, and Scheyer is the best for accomplishing that.

Separately, I think we need to structure our offense with Singler playing more as a low post threat. He has such an array of moves and ability to finsih around the basket that it frustrates me he doesn't get the ball more often close to the basket. He seemed to do so much more of that last season before he started to get fatigued. While I don't think he should be guarding opposing team's primary big man, I do think he should be our primary post option on offense, and that will create matchup decisions for the defense - either double team him or leave others open for outside shots.

BlueintheFace
02-20-2009, 12:28 PM
Jon actually didn't add anything traditionally associated with the "pg role." He didn't turn the ball over, which is nice, but he essentially did the same thing Paulus does. He brought the ball up the floor and got the ball to Lance at the (elbow extended) high post or gave it to G/ Kyle on the wings to start our offense. After making that pass, we just went back into our normal (recently at least- with the new motion elements) offense. His assists came within his normal role within the offense.

Frankly, I don't understand what the big deal is about him bringing the ball up the floor. The real story is what Paulus/Nolan/E-will do in their role within the offense after the ball goes out to the wings, and what they do on the defensive end.

In other words, you can let Zoubek bring the ball up the stinking floor, but the significance of the personnel changes is how this team changes defensively when E-will comes in over Nolan/Paulus and how that second guard performs in the second half of the shot clock once G, Kyle, and Jon start to run that offense from the wings.

Jon at point is not the change that matters. Truly.

Kedsy
02-20-2009, 12:29 PM
OrioleWay -- there is much in what you say, but I'm not sold yet. I think Elliot has amazing potential and played decently last night, but I wasn't so impressed with the way his defense meshed with his teammates'. IMO, our team defense is best with a confident Nolan checking the other team's point. Obviously, Nolan needs to regain that confidence to be effective, but relegating him to the bench doesn't seem like the best way to get that swagger back for him.

As for Jon at the point, I think he is a capable ballhandler and doesn't turn the ball over much, but I'm not sold about that either. He only had one assist last night and I don't think it's a coincidence that he gets more dimes as a wing than from the top of the key. Having him as point guard allows him to flash into the key and get mid-range shots for himself, but he's not really a drive and dish sort of player, and the passing angles if you're standing at the top are more difficult than those from the side.

Plus, it's only a feeling I had watching the game, but it seemed to me the responsibility of playing point took away some of the "intangible" things Jon usually does which are so helpful to the team.

Overall, I'm all for Elliot getting more minutes, but I think Nolan has to regain his prominent role and also that you can't just kick Greg to the curb. I guess we'll see what happens against Wake.

CDu
02-20-2009, 12:43 PM
Jon actually didn't add anything traditionally associated with the "pg role." He didn't turn the ball over, which is nice, but he essentially did the same thing Paulus does. He brought the ball up the floor and got the ball to Lance at the (elbow extended) high post or gave it to G/ Kyle on the wings to start our offense. After making that pass, we just went back into our normal (recently at least- with the new motion elements) offense. His assists came within his normal role within the offense.

Frankly, I don't understand what the big deal is about him bringing the ball up the floor. The real story is what Paulus/Nolan/E-will do in their role within the offense after the ball goes out to the wings, and what they do on the defensive end.

In other words, you can let Zoubek bring the ball up the stinking floor, but the significance of the personnel changes is how this team changes defensively when E-will comes in over Nolan/Paulus and how that second guard performs in the second half of the shot clock once G, Kyle, and Jon start to run that offense from the wings.

Jon at point is not the change that matters. Truly.

You are correct that Scheyer didn't do that much different than what Paulus does in terms of PG play. I'd say that he made a few nice attacks, but for the most part he filled his usual role plus bringing the ball up the court.

The difference is that by going with Scheyer as the "PG," Coach K could go with Scheyer, Henderson, and Williams on the court together. The theory being that Williams can provide a spark defensively and another impact offensive player.

It's the same idea Coach K had with going with Smith (better defense, good penetrator). Unfortunately, Smith's play has been spotty since the ACC season began.

So I don't think it's so much a reflection of how great Scheyer is as a PG, but that he can provide the same thing (or more) as compared to our other PG while still getting his offense and allowing for a better defensive alignment.

BlueintheFace
02-20-2009, 01:11 PM
You are correct that Scheyer didn't do that much different than what Paulus does in terms of PG play. I'd say that he made a few nice attacks, but for the most part he filled his usual role plus bringing the ball up the court.

The difference is that by going with Scheyer as the "PG," Coach K could go with Scheyer, Henderson, and Williams on the court together. The theory being that Williams can provide a spark defensively and another impact offensive player.

It's the same idea Coach K had with going with Smith (better defense, good penetrator). Unfortunately, Smith's play has been spotty since the ACC season began.

So I don't think it's so much a reflection of how great Scheyer is as a PG, but that he can provide the same thing (or more) as compared to our other PG while still getting his offense and allowing for a better defensive alignment.

yah, that is more or less what I am saying. Although, I am not sure we will see E-will that much against Wake.

CDu
02-20-2009, 01:34 PM
yah, that is more or less what I am saying. Although, I am not sure we will see E-will that much against Wake.

That remains to be seen, I guess. Based on Williams's performance against St John's, I see no clear-cut reason not to give him the chance against Wake as well. But if he struggles, I think the hook will probably come fairly quickly. The alternatives just aren't screaming for Williams to go back to the bench - Paulus is a terrible matchup, and Smith hasn't been playing his best basketball lately.

pfrduke
02-20-2009, 01:44 PM
That remains to be seen, I guess. Based on Williams's performance against St John's, I see no clear-cut reason not to give him the chance against Wake as well. But if he struggles, I think the hook will probably come fairly quickly. The alternatives just aren't screaming for Williams to go back to the bench - Paulus is a terrible matchup, and Smith hasn't been playing his best basketball lately.

My hunch is that during the first half, both Nolan and Elliot (and possibly Greg, to a lesser extent), will be "competing" for second half minutes. Both players are very similar, with Williams giving a little more size and better rebounding, and Nolan a little more speed and better defense (particularly in the team defense sense, as opposed to just one-on-one matchups). If Nolan plays confidently and aggressively, and doesn't make careless mistakes, I think he'll end up with more minutes - if each play well, Nolan brings more to the table.

jv001
02-20-2009, 01:46 PM
yah, that is more or less what I am saying. Although, I am not sure we will see E-will that much against Wake.

I'm thinking that Greg should have to earn playing time in practice this week. The key word being earn. That's what Coach K said about Elliot. He earned the PT. Just because Greg is a senior doesn' mean he gets the mins over someone that can play on the ball defense. If Greg is shooting well, he could help us, if not he can't. I may be wrong. I have been many times. Go Duke!

COYS
02-20-2009, 01:57 PM
Both players are very similar, with Williams giving a little more size and better rebounding, and Nolan a little more speed and better defense (particularly in the team defense sense, as opposed to just one-on-one matchups).

I ask this not to contradict you, pfrduke, but as a legit question, is Nolan actually faster than Williams? I think at this moment that Nolan is certainly capable of moving faster on defense from what he showed last year and the first part of this year. However, Williams has seemed lightening quick in the open court. I've been very impressed with his sheer speed. I might add that I'm also not one of the ones who has been clamoring for him to get more minutes this year . . . at least not until K thought it was the right time (like last night). But I do think that Elliott has surprising speed for a player 6-4 and that's something that I do think our team largely lacks. Gerald is explosive, but I'm not sure his top-end speed is elite, at least when he has the ball. Scheyer is far quicker than people give him credit for, but his flat out sprint isn't terribly fast, either. Nolan's definitely fast, but I'm not actually convinced that he's faster than Williams. I thought many of his struggles early in the season were due to the fact that he would play so fast, he'd leave the ball behind. Last night, he seemed to control himself much better and the few times he got a chance to run the length of the court, i was just really impressed with how fast he could run.

Chitowndevil
02-20-2009, 02:14 PM
I am for Scheyer at the point currently, but only because I continue to believe there is something wrong with Nolan Smith that we don't know about.

As I noted in another thread, through the first 15 games of the season, Nolan scored in double figures 11 times and was held without an assist only once. In 11 games since (starting with Jan 14 at GTech) he has scored in double figures 3 times and posted zero assists 6 times. It's clearly not just minutes (his MPG hasn't changed much) and I don't believe it's purely caliber of competition, as he played well against Michigan, Purdue, and Va Tech.

Bottom line, without Nolan playing well I don't think this Duke team can be as good as the one we saw earlier in the season. It can still be really good, though.

pfrduke
02-20-2009, 02:28 PM
I ask this not to contradict you, pfrduke, but as a legit question, is Nolan actually faster than Williams? I think at this moment that Nolan is certainly capable of moving faster on defense from what he showed last year and the first part of this year. However, Williams has seemed lightening quick in the open court. I've been very impressed with his sheer speed. I might add that I'm also not one of the ones who has been clamoring for him to get more minutes this year . . . at least not until K thought it was the right time (like last night). But I do think that Elliott has surprising speed for a player 6-4 and that's something that I do think our team largely lacks. Gerald is explosive, but I'm not sure his top-end speed is elite, at least when he has the ball. Scheyer is far quicker than people give him credit for, but his flat out sprint isn't terribly fast, either. Nolan's definitely fast, but I'm not actually convinced that he's faster than Williams. I thought many of his struggles early in the season were due to the fact that he would play so fast, he'd leave the ball behind. Last night, he seemed to control himself much better and the few times he got a chance to run the length of the court, i was just really impressed with how fast he could run.

It may be close, but my (admittedly uneducated) opinion from watching the team this year is that Nolan has the best end-to-end speed on the team. I wish he'd push the ball a little more than he's in.

MChambers
02-20-2009, 03:19 PM
I am for Scheyer at the point currently, but only because I continue to believe there is something wrong with Nolan Smith that we don't know about.

As I noted in another thread, through the first 15 games of the season, Nolan scored in double figures 11 times and was held without an assist only once. In 11 games since (starting with Jan 14 at GTech) he has scored in double figures 3 times and posted zero assists 6 times. It's clearly not just minutes (his MPG hasn't changed much) and I don't believe it's purely caliber of competition, as he played well against Michigan, Purdue, and Va Tech.

Bottom line, without Nolan playing well I don't think this Duke team can be as good as the one we saw earlier in the season. It can still be really good, though.

I agree that something is going on with Nolan that we don't know about. I've got to think it is some sort of injury. I also agree that getting him back to his level of play in December is the most important improvement this team can make this season.

Devilsfan
02-20-2009, 03:36 PM
Does Nolan suffer from a bad back? I was hoping he would be the speed guard needed to match up with true ACC caliber point guards. It seems like he has lost it all. Also we DON'T TAKE CARE OF THE BALL. Coach K always used to preach the importance of taking care of the ball. Once again that we ran out of gas in the second half. We should have beat this very bad team by thirty.

Boston Dukie
02-20-2009, 04:28 PM
I have not posted in forever (since I was temporarily banned and didn't agree with the banning), but now that things have played out, I want to revisit the same topic

The issue is that Coach K needs to invest in players with talent, and let them grow and make mistakes, even if it means losing some regular season games or having a bad year. That is how the team gets better over the long-term, from beginning of the season to the end of the season, from year to year

With this team, there is plenty of talent, but not all of it has been utilized yet

Last year I said coach K should "give up on Zoubek and Paulus and McClure" and some people flipped out. What was meant (is meant) is that these players were older, with less time left to grow, and their ceilings were very, very clear. So rather than give them the majority of minutes, they should get the minority as back-ups to other more talented and younger players with higher ceilings.

Elliot Williams is easily the 3rd most talented player on the team. He is not even close to the 3rd best player, but he never will be if he doesn't play. Same with Plumlee. He doesn't have EW's talent, but he is light years ahead of Zoubek or McClure potential wise.

So I am not sure who should play the point (I hope Nolan, but maybe Scheyer is better, I can see a case for both), but what I really hope that happens is that EW's and MP's minutes go way up. This might mean an earlier exit from the Tourney, but it might also mean we win the Tourney next year. I really wish they got the time from the beginning of the year, because maybe now it is too late

Isn't everyone tired of peaking in January as the bench shortens, guys get tired, and the young guys don't get better?

With Henderson, Singler, Scheyer, Smith, Williams, Plumlee and Thomas all coming back next year, plus the help in the middle on the way, Duke has a legitimate shot at the FF and even a NC, if the young guys develop

Paulus will be gone. There is no point in investing many minutes in him. he had 3 years of minutes. Zoubek will never play next year. If he does, than the 2 new recruits have been highly over-rated. And McClure will be gone as well.

I love the grit and fire that Paulus and McClure show, but in the end I just want the program to win and go deep in the tourney

So I think I was dead on last year, and feel exactly the same this year. Play the youngest/most talented players and let them get better.

It is pretty clear coach K partially agrees (see Paulus from the start of the year) and is starting to agree more completely (see Zoubek and Paulus now and see the time for EW and MP last night).

I hope it continues. It would be great to see no one play more than 32 minutes, and have EW and MP each play at least 20+ a game

Jeffrey
02-20-2009, 05:03 PM
With Henderson, Singler, Scheyer, Smith, Williams, Plumlee and Thomas all coming back next year....

That's a bold assertion that's anything but certain. Some, maybe many, of those players are future NBAers.

Rich
02-20-2009, 05:10 PM
That's a bold assertion that's anything but certain. Some, maybe many, of those players are future NBAers.

I'm not saying I agree with Boston Dukie, but my guess is that s/he would say that's even more of a reason to have the young guys playing now.

Jeffrey
02-20-2009, 05:17 PM
I'm not saying I agree with Boston Dukie, but my guess is that s/he would say that's even more of a reason to have the young guys playing now.

OTOH, it could also be a good argument for why we need to try to win it all this year while we still have Kyle and G. There's no guarantee that either, or both, do not leave at the end of this season.

jv001
02-20-2009, 05:24 PM
I have not posted in forever (since I was temporarily banned and didn't agree with the banning), but now that things have played out, I want to revisit the same topic

The issue is that Coach K needs to invest in players with talent, and let them grow and make mistakes, even if it means losing some regular season games or having a bad year. That is how the team gets better over the long-term, from beginning of the season to the end of the season, from year to year

With this team, there is plenty of talent, but not all of it has been utilized yet

Last year I said coach K should "give up on Zoubek and Paulus and McClure" and some people flipped out. What was meant (is meant) is that these players were older, with less time left to grow, and their ceilings were very, very clear. So rather than give them the majority of minutes, they should get the minority as back-ups to other more talented and younger players with higher ceilings.

Elliot Williams is easily the 3rd most talented player on the team. He is not even close to the 3rd best player, but he never will be if he doesn't play. Same with Plumlee. He doesn't have EW's talent, but he is light years ahead of Zoubek or McClure potential wise.

So I am not sure who should play the point (I hope Nolan, but maybe Scheyer is better, I can see a case for both), but what I really hope that happens is that EW's and MP's minutes go way up. This might mean an earlier exit from the Tourney, but it might also mean we win the Tourney next year. I really wish they got the time from the beginning of the year, because maybe now it is too late

Isn't everyone tired of peaking in January as the bench shortens, guys get tired, and the young guys don't get better?

With Henderson, Singler, Scheyer, Smith, Williams, Plumlee and Thomas all coming back next year, plus the help in the middle on the way, Duke has a legitimate shot at the FF and even a NC, if the young guys develop

Paulus will be gone. There is no point in investing many minutes in him. he had 3 years of minutes. Zoubek will never play next year. If he does, than the 2 new recruits have been highly over-rated. And McClure will be gone as well.

I love the grit and fire that Paulus and McClure show, but in the end I just want the program to win and go deep in the tourney

So I think I was dead on last year, and feel exactly the same this year. Play the youngest/most talented players and let them get better.

It is pretty clear coach K partially agrees (see Paulus from the start of the year) and is starting to agree more completely (see Zoubek and Paulus now and see the time for EW and MP last night).

I hope it continues. It would be great to see no one play more than 32 minutes, and have EW and MP each play at least 20+ a game

I like optimism as well as anyone but I don't think we will see Gerald and Kyle both in a Duke uniform next year. Maybe one will return, but I don't see both returning. Don't get me worong I hope both return and we contend for a National Championship. I am not giving up on this years team just yet. I too would have liked to see Elliot and Miles get more PT and play through their mistakes, but I believe in Coach K. The Wake game is the biggest of the year as far as I'm concerned. Go Duke!

roywhite
02-20-2009, 05:27 PM
Some further thoughts on the best lineup:

1. Maybe this is just terminology, but perhaps we should refer to using Scheyer not as the PG but as the "primary ballhandler." Others may create more plays or have more assists, but Jon is steady and may be better than anyone at avoiding turnovers.

2. Jon, with the ball in his hands more, gets fouled and goes to the line more (where he hits a high%). This is good for Duke in many ways.

3. Some of this juggling is simply by necessity. If Nolan were playing well, or if Greg had followed up his Miami performance, we wouldn't have seen the lineup changes.

4. Based on last night's results and some thoughts from above, I like the idea of Jon continuing in this role. Greg, Nolan and Elliot will compete for time.

5. Elliot's play last night was a major positive. Was he under-utilized previously? Maybe, maybe not. We simply don't know enough information (practice results, coaching thoughts, etc.) to make a judgment. His adjustment to college play is within the normal range (some adjust quickly, some take a while). But he is talented; he performed better, and he can definitely help the team.

6. We'll get a pretty good read on the team's status Sunday.

Jeffrey
02-20-2009, 06:17 PM
I do not understand why some people are so impressed by last night's results. I thought we closed very poorly against a weak team. IMO, last night's performance would have earned us a loss against UNC, Wake, and maybe other ACC teams. Our D was repeatedly penetrated by average guard play and St. Joe's shot a very high percentage. We beat a weak team by single digits.

FireOgilvie
02-20-2009, 06:26 PM
I just saw this thread... I posted this in the SJ post-game thread. I said:

"St. John's put absolutely no pressure on Scheyer when he was bringing the ball up the court. He had one man meet him halfway between halfcourt and the 3 pt line, but even then it was usually just weak pressure. I noted St. John's seemed to lack intensity on defense and that they never attempted to drive on the guards on offense (they waited for defensive switches against the forwards). Nolan, who played PG when he was in the game with Scheyer, had zero turnovers (I believe) bringing the ball up the court as well... his turnovers came on a bad pass from Zoubek to Nolan in the interior, a questionable offensive foul, and something else I don't remember.

Based off this one game, Scheyer's PG play was adequate, but it certainly wasn't season-changing... he didn't "create" or even penetrate more than Nolan would have. Scheyer had 1 assist... lower than what he averages at SG. He's perfectly capable of dribbling the ball up to halfcourt with no one around him; that was never an issue. The issues come on his ability to defend the quickest players (he can't, that is what E-Will is in for - guarding Boothe yesterday), his ability to handle the ball under intense pressure from a tough defender (this is yet to be seen), his ability to break the press of a team like Clemson (haven't seen it yet), and his ability to be as effective as he was as a shooting guard while playing the PG position (he's doing well through 1 game). Scheyer was perfectly fine against St. John's... but it wasn't a real test for him. I will reserve judgment on the move after the Wake game. That is when the first true test will come.

Some people pointed out that Scheyer averages a lot of assists and relatively few TOs, so he is more of a point guard than Nolan. I just want to note that even against a very weak defensive team Scheyer never "created" like people were pining for both Paulus and Nolan to do. I think this is because Scheyer is not comfortable handling the ball while facing the basket against pressure. Also, I feel like the point guard position is about risk and reward (turnovers and assists). Scheyer is very conservative; he plays like all he wants to do is not make a mistake; hence, 1 assist, 0 TOs. I hope he can develop his ballhandling enough to use some of his playmaking ability at PG."

FireOgilvie
02-20-2009, 06:42 PM
Replying to Oriole Way...

This is a sad truth, but Scheyer has zero chance of playing point guard in the NBA. I think nearly everyone would agree with me on this one. He doesn't have the face-the-basket ballhandling skills, he has little to no ability to penetrate against quick defenders, his passing/ability to create isn't particularly impressive (for an NBA prospect), and he is way too slow to guard opposing PGs in the NBA. Scheyer has been playing at basically the same level for 3 years now, I don't see him suddenly changing. Honestly, Nolan or E-Will has the best shot of anyone on our roster right now to play PG in the NBA. They're quicker, more athletic, and also young... we don't know what to expect in the future.

Also, I love what E-Will brings to the game. If the only way to get him in is with Scheyer at point guard in stretches, that is fine. But I don't think we should abandon Nolan at PG completely... I think he should start to give him more confidence. I like that Nolan still got a lot of playing time last night... the team has the highest ceiling with Nolan in as the point guard. You know what you are going to get with Scheyer, and that is nice, but he doesn't offer anything that Nolan has already shown he can bring (although not lately for whatever reason). I think you have to put Paulus as 3rd string PG right now as Duke looks to re-establish their defensive identity... he can get time as a SG.

NovaScotian
02-20-2009, 06:53 PM
The original title of this thread was going to be "the case for using Jon Scheyer at the point", but I didn't have time to make this post before the St. John's game. It turns out K made the exact changes I recommended for this team to turn things around (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=259199#post259199) following the loss to BC. They came a few games too late, but better late than never.

I have been calling for Scheyer to man the point since the loss to Clemson (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=253653#post253653), even getting into an animated debate with some posters (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=253685#post253685) who disagreed with me. I believe Duke needs to continue using him as a point guard in order to maximize our offensive efficiency and quite possibly turn around our season.

I had several thoughts on moving Jon over to the point in particular saved from a PM conversation I had with another poster, and meant to post them prior to last night's game. Since I really hope that K sticks with Jon at the point for the remainder of the season, or at least until/if Nolan Smith drastically improves, I would like to share my thoughts for the advantages of the move not only for Duke, but also for Jon Scheyer's future, and see what other posters think about what Duke needs to do in order to improve.

Forgive the excessive length of this missive, but it accurately expresses my thoughts about this team's problems.

This is what I wrote via PM two weeks ago regarding our PG problems and rotation issues:

Here's my thinking. Our problems this year are largely offensive. Our offense is so atrocious that it negatively affects our defense. It's not just Nolan, don't get me wrong - Singler, Henderson, and even Scheyer make unacceptable turnovers which lead to fast breaks, negating our ability to take advantage of our pressure half-court defense. But if Nolan is not doing a good job handling the ball, and he's not even playing like a traditional point to begin with, you should use a more effective ball-handler who cuts down on turnovers. For me, that would obviously be Jon.

I completely agree that Nolan is a better penetrator than Jon. But Nolan just isn't driving to the rim enough. The toughest part of the schedule has arrived, and we've started losing. It's only going to get tougher. If Nolan doesn't drive to the rim, what difference does it make if Jon isn't as good at something which Nolan barely does to begin with?

UNC is going to eat us alive if Nolan continues to man the point. And to have any shot of a #1 seed, we need to beat Carolina at least once. We have the talent to do it, but we need an "A" game (not turning it over in particular) and we need to revamp our offense completely.

Here's a problem I have with how K has handled the team, which frustrates me and ties in with what we're talking about. The usage of Elliot Williams and Miles Plumlee, but in particular Williams. I think he has been criminally underused, as he is probably our third most talented player behind Henderson and Singler. I have bemoaned his lack of playing time for months on the boards. People like Jumbo have reasonably questioned why he deserves time, because he hasn't played well. But I think it's been hard for him to get acclimated to college play and establish some confidence because K yanks him literally after 2 minutes, after any missed defensive assignment or ill-advised shot. He almost never gets meaningful minutes in second halves against quality opponents. The moral of this rant is that I have always envisioned Williams as a starter on this team, and he would be a part of the defensive solution if Scheyer would take over the point. Just because Scheyer plays PG doesn't mean he has to guard the opponent's PG. Williams could possibly do that. He is very quick and has great height and length that would give almost any PG problems. Nolan would also guard the opposing PG when he's in the game. Unfortunately, WIlliams hasn't gotten any time to sort out his defense. That's why I am upset that K rarely played him earlier in the season against so many weak opponents (not garbage time playing with the bottom of our bench, I'm talking in the first half with the starters when the outcome of the game is still in question).

So, to answer your question of who would start instead of Nolan, it would be McClure. But it should be Williams.

Realistically, Duke would just have to rely on it's help defense to help Jon guard opposing PG's if McClure is the new starter. McClure makes us better defensively, and I like him better with Scheyer, Singer, Henderson, and Zoubs/Thomas anyway because he's on the floor with three offensive threats, instead of the usual two when he comes in with Paulus (not a lineup I like because offensively it's terrible).

The other thing to consider is that Jon is actually a fringe NBA prospect. If he can play the point and improve his PG skills, he could actually help his chances of playing in the NBA. The player I think is most similar to Jon in the NBA is Chris Quinn, who gets significant minutes for the Heat. Quinn is a much better shooter, but Jon has some similar skills. They have comparable builds, but Jon is actually a few inches taller, which gives him a big advantage if he wants to play as a pro. Anyway, Quinn played the 2 guard at Notre Dame, just like Jon does. Quinn would back up Chris Thomas, and then became the starting PG his senior year out of necessity. He changed positions but flourished, and now he's the backup PG for the Heat. I am positive Jon can follow a similar path, but K is going to need to think outside the box on this one.

Anyway, sorry for the long rant. Those are just some thoughts, but would like to hear what you think.

This is the best post I've seen on DBR in like four years. I love it.

In terms of the comparison to Quinn, I see where you're going, and I agree. I would actually bring it closer to home and say he reminds me a lot more of Daniel Ewing, but let's hope for Jon's sake his potential NBA career works out a bit better. He still has the opportunity for a standout senior year, which he can certainly have if he continues at the point.

Boston Dukie
02-20-2009, 08:07 PM
I know that Henderson is probably a lottery pick when he chooses to leave, but I am not sure he will (just guessing like everyone)

I think as a player it comes down to a few factors:

1) Financial situation - I think G is fine, not a real hardship here to wait a year

2) Development - I think he is emerging as a superstar, but one more year and he will improve further

3) Chances to win - I think if G sees a team with a chance to win the NC, he will come back. I think the more EW and MP develop, the better he will think his chances are (doesn't matter what Paulus and McClure do as they will be gone)

So I think Henderson comes back.

I also think Singler comes back as there are many skeptics at how well his games projects (like Tyler Hans) to the NBA

I don't think Scheyer is an NBA player, or even close, but that is another topic

No one else is even close (although I hope Nolan and EW emerge over time)

So I do think everyone comes back

Also, if I were EW and had that talent and never saw the court, I would be thinking transfer. That would be a devastating blow to the program

Maybe I am being optimistic about who stays, but not as optimistic as those who think this team can win the NC this year. The team has no number 5 and a problem at PG. Lance is a great 4 back-up to Singler, Plumlee is not ready (partly since he has gotten no time), and Zoubek is Zoubek. Paulus is Paulus, Nolan is really struggling, and Scheyer has 1 game under his belt at PG that while solid, was not spectacular.

Travi_K
02-20-2009, 10:18 PM
I like the move to put Jon at the point. I think a good college comparison to Jon is Nick Calathes of Florida and I have thought they were similar players since I first saw him in the McD AA game. Similar Size and both are very smart and savy on the court. Neither one is explosive but both are just extremely smart and make very good decisions. Naturally, one big difference is PG experience. Jon does not average 6 assists per game but with PG experience aside I feel like Calathes is a good college comparison of what Jon could be.

ACCBBallFan
02-21-2009, 05:37 AM
There are good arguments to be made regardless of which of Elliott, Nolan or Greg joins G and Jon in the lineup.

The last few posters starting making my point that playing St John's who underutilizes its bigs as coach Knight kept pointing out, is vastly different than playing Wake, UNC or even Clemson.

It was a good move to give Elliott and Miles some PT in a game Duke knew it would win.

Versus Wake however, Lance or Dave cannot match up well with Chas MacFarland. That has to be Zoubek, and then Miles though I doubt particularly the latter will happen.

Miles PT was probably due more to McClure being ill, but he did play adequately.

It was good to see Lance aggressively dunk the ball.

MacFarland usually gets into foul troble pretty quickly and then coach K would counter by replacing Zoubek with a quicker big, whether that be Miles, Lance or Dave to help Singler combat Aminu and Johnson and a guy who hurt Duke last time more than expected Weaver.

Woods does not appear ready for prime time and they could hold their own against him too, though again Zoubs would be a better option if he is not in foul trouble.

Whichever of EWill, Nolan or Greg is on the court, they need to stop Teague and the other guy who hurt Duke more than expected at their place, Ish Smith, while continuing to make LD Williams a non factor.

Oriole Way
02-22-2009, 02:34 PM
One thing which I would like to emphasize, which I failed to mention my the original post and which other posters have mentioned, is that it is very likely that Nolan Smith is recovering from an injury and may not be anywhere close to 100%. I think a healthy Smith could play well enough to take over as the point guard, and if he does, he should be running the point. But until that happens, Scheyer needs to continue as the primary ballhandler (to use a term roywhite mentioned).


I think one point everyone is missing with the switch to Scheyer at the point was how it impacted the rest of the team. How many points did Greg and Nolan score last night? How many assists did they have? So while this move may form a good lineup, it could be argued that it still hurts the team overall by turning Greg and Nolan into non-entities-- a potentially disastrous turn of events. Was it effective against St. Johns? Sure. Is St.Johns an outstanding defensive team? Not so much. What happens when a tough defensive team starts exerting consistent pressure? I worry because as smart as Jon is with the ball, I'm not prepared to say he's a better ball handler than Greg or Nolan. Part of a coaches job is to maximize his assets to form the best team possible. I have a hard time envisioning a great Duke team without Nolan or Greg at the point.

I think Jon Scheyer's assist to turnover ratio speaks for itself, especially compared to Nolan Smith - 74 assists to 43 turnovers for Scheyer, 45 assists to 49 turnovers for Smith. Based on both statistics and watching both players handle the point, Scheyer is clearly the better ballhandler - and more importantly, the better decision-maker.

Scheyer rarely makes ill-advised turnovers. Smith will not only make questionable passes in both transition and the half-court set, but he makes them at very bad times, usually when we need to score to cut into an opponent's lead, or when we need to score to build upon a small lead.

The bottom line is that neither Smith or Paulus are playing well. So when you ask how many assists they had, I think their lack of assists is more a by-product of poor play than it is losing time to Scheyer at the 1 spot. Scheyer still does things which help the team when his shot is off. When Paulus or Smith aren't shooting well, they add very little else.


Oriole,

You deserve a lot of credit for your "out of the box" thinking and the fact that the coaching staff acted in the way that you opined about. While I think Jon can handle the pressure of bringing the ball up, my biggest concern with this lineup is on the defensive end. I'm just not sure that he can stay in front of the quick guards that have been eating us up. Plus, point guard play becomes so important in the tourney and I'm concerned that this lineup will not provide the on-the-ball pressure that we need for the defense to click. That being said, I agree that Smith and Paulus haven't been providing that defense anyway so it can't hurt to make this change and see how we handle it. Maybe we all have to just accept the fact that we don't have the personnel this year to stop PG penetration.

As jv001 succinctly stated, Williams did a very nice job of guarding St. John's point guard. I like how he basically guarded his man for the entire length of the court. His size and quickness could make it tough on opposing PG's. His only problem is that he will sometimes overplay his man - like someone mentioned, he is like Sean Dockery before he was older and more experienced, always trying to go for a steal. I think Williams will only get better as he gets more acclimated to college play. It's another reason I think K made a mistake not giving him more minutes earlier in the season, because he would be more prepared right now.

It's also possible that when Smith starts playing like he's capable, or healthier, or both, that he can start alongside Scheyer. Both could share ball handling duties if Smith's ball-handling and decision making improves. It's possible that Smith is more effective and comfortable as a 2 guard anyway. But most importantly, Smith would guard the opposing PG defensively while playing as a 2 guard on offense. So, the concerns of Scheyer guarding quick PG's would be alleviated. If both Williams and Smith are playing well enough to start, it would be a great problem to have and I suspect Duke's prospects for a deep run in March would look much brighter.



I do not understand why some people are so impressed by last night's results. I thought we closed very poorly against a weak team. IMO, last night's performance would have earned us a loss against UNC, Wake, and maybe other ACC teams. Our D was repeatedly penetrated by average guard play and St. Joe's shot a very high percentage. We beat a weak team by single digits.


I still believe that Nolan has the skills to be a top-notch PG. I would try to rebuild Nolan for not only March but next year. I'd start Nolan.

I wasn't as impressed last night as most. IMO, St. Joe's is not an overly impressive team this year and they kept the game to a single digit win. I don't think last night's play would have resulted in a win if we had been playing UNC or Wake.

If we're going to speculate, the St. John's game would have resulted in another loss if Scheyer hadn't played point guard and Williams hadn't started. I also think the St. John's lineup gives us a better chance to win against UNC and Wake. While I agree that Smith has the skills to be a good PG, his play recently does not warrant him starting, nor getting heavy minutes.


Jon actually didn't add anything traditionally associated with the "pg role." He didn't turn the ball over, which is nice, but he essentially did the same thing Paulus does. He brought the ball up the floor and got the ball to Lance at the (elbow extended) high post or gave it to G/ Kyle on the wings to start our offense. After making that pass, we just went back into our normal (recently at least- with the new motion elements) offense. His assists came within his normal role within the offense.

Frankly, I don't understand what the big deal is about him bringing the ball up the floor. The real story is what Paulus/Nolan/E-will do in their role within the offense after the ball goes out to the wings, and what they do on the defensive end.

In other words, you can let Zoubek bring the ball up the stinking floor, but the significance of the personnel changes is how this team changes defensively when E-will comes in over Nolan/Paulus and how that second guard performs in the second half of the shot clock once G, Kyle, and Jon start to run that offense from the wings.

Jon at point is not the change that matters. Truly.

I wholeheartedly disagree. If you can't see that, over the course of three seasons, Jon can penetrate, get into the lane, and get to the line significantly better than Greg Paulus, then we observe basketball much differently. Against St. John's, and over the course of his entire career, Jon has been an effective slasher. He can not only score, but pass effectively after driving into the lane. Playing him at PG only encourages him to do that even more.

By the way, using Zoubek in your example of bringing the ball up the floor is ridiculous. Obviously you were using an extreme example to make a point, but it doesn't make any sense. It would never happen and it would never work. The bottom line is that Paulus and Smith were having problems even just bringing the ball up the floor, even against pressure. Scheyer handles pressure brilliantly.

Paulus will dribble the ball into the ground with his back to the basket. Smith can get into the lane more than Paulus, but he's not doing it enough to warrant him starting or playing more than he did against St. John's. Scheyer adds the ability to drive, dish, and shoot, which you need from your PG. So I think the change really does matter, and Jon does add several qualities traditionally associated with the "pg role".