Different Perspective on Officials v. Hansbrough

[The Playcaller]

Apparently there are a lot of folks Carolina way who feel the tide may have unfairly turned.

http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/840308.html

Without getting into the merits of the author's thesis, the actual evidence is complete junk. You simply can't say anything interesting about officiating if all you look at are foul-counts and free throw attempts.

I thought the implicit criticism of John Cahill was especially rich:

"...the ACC officiating crew has drawn criticism this season for its inconsistency. For example, John Cahill has refereed three North Carolina conference games thus far, and the average total fouls called in those contests are 28. Karl Hess, on the other hand, has been present for four UNC games, and those foul totals average out to 44 per outing."

To recap, the writer is taking two extremely small sample sizes and extrapolating, ah, something, completely ignoring all of the other contributing factors: the other 10-15 officials in those games, styles of play, match-ups, end-games (was one team fouling intentionally?),potential overtimes, etc.

Game tape. That's all that matters. If plays are being missed consistently, adjustments should be made. But cherry-picked data are evidence of nothing.

[CMS2478]

Over on IC there are numerous posters/threads requestion all UNC fans to contact Swofford (the commissioner of the ACC) and protest the unfair treatment of Hansborough. :rolleyes:

[ncexnyc]

You sir are 100% correct, game tape is all that counts.

I believe enough people on this board have seen the disproportionate number of flops and travels Hasbro has gotten away with over the years.:D

[roywhite]

You sir are 100% correct, game tape is all that counts.

I believe enough people on this board have seen the disproportionate number of flops and travels Hasbro has gotten away with over the years.:D

My theory on this is that the refs have changed the way they call plays involving Hansbrough and he is getting less favorable treatment. And I think the reason is that the complaints about past favoritism for him became numerous and widespread. For example, there was the egregious no-call for Hansbrough travelling that Coach Knight illustrated on an ESPN segment, that was shown and talked about repeatedly.

Refs are human, too, and they do react to public criticism or certain themes of public criticism. So, IMO, two instances of this are:

1. "Duke gets all the calls"---which goes back at least to 2001 and Terping. That was repeated so often that it took on a life of its own, and refs called things differently for a while because of that. FWIW, I don't hear that too much lately, and I don't see much evidence that Duke teams are being treated unfairly by the zebras.

2. "Hansbrough walks and gets all the calls"---they have reacted, this year, to that theme, and are calling things differently.

[davekay1971]

My theory on this is that the refs have changed the way they call plays involving Hansbrough and he is getting less favorable treatment. And I think the reason is that the complaints about past favoritism for him became numerous and widespread. For example, there was the egregious no-call for Hansbrough travelling that Coach Knight illustrated on an ESPN segment, that was shown and talked about repeatedly.

Refs are human, too, and they do react to public criticism or certain themes of public criticism. So, IMO, two instances of this are:

1. "Duke gets all the calls"---which goes back at least to 2001 and Terping. That was repeated so often that it took on a life of its own, and refs called things differently for a while because of that. FWIW, I don't hear that too much lately, and I don't see much evidence that Duke teams are being treated unfairly by the zebras.

2. "Hansbrough walks and gets all the calls"---they have reacted, this year, to that theme, and are calling things differently.

Except for the monumental flop that handed Carolina the Miami game...

[MulletMan]

What I actually find most amusing about this article is that the illustirous author makes no mention of the fact that UNC's team has changed the way that it is playing, as has Hansbra, and thus, his touches in the paint have probably decreased.

Let's consider Tyler for a second. Now, first off, his minutes have dropped. Last year he averaged 33 mpg, and this year he is averaging 29.5 mpg. His shots per game have fallen from 13.7 to 12.9. Now, since he shoots pretty much everytime that he touches the ball, I'm gonna assume that this is a good indicator of how many times he's getting the rock each game :D. His rebounds have significantly dropped, from 10.2 to 7.5 rpg, and he's already attempted 15 3 pointers this season in 22 games, whereas he took 7 in 39 games last season. I look at the rebounds and the 3s as an indicator of TH's attempt to show off his outside game for the NBDL scouts. He's looking to shoot jumpers more and thus he's a. not in position to rebound as much, and b. getting fouled less, which would lead to his decrease in trips to the stripe.

What about the other players for UNC? Look at Danny Green. Last year 22.3 mpg versus 26.3 mpg this season. His shots taken per game have gone from 8.8 to 10.1. Lawson trends the same way... 25.3 mpg last year to 28.7 mpg this year, and 8.5 spg against 9.3 spg. And perhaps most importantly, Deon Thompson has gone from 21.4 mpg to 25.8 this season and from 7.5 spg last year to 9 spg this year!

So, essentially, Tyler's PT and shots per game have gone down, the rest of the team's numbers there have gone up (especially thier other dominant post-player's numbers) and consequently Tyler's not getting to the stripe as often. Is it possible that this is the reason and not some giant ref/ACC conspiracy?

[Fish80]

Except for the monumental flop that handed Carolina the Miami game...

It was a flop in the sense that Handsbro appeared to react in a manner greater than that caused by the force of the contact. There was contact. But he's a big fellow.

I thought the call was borderline and could have gone either way. Did Handsbro establish defensive position? That's a judgment call.

I give Handsbro credit for hustling down court and getting in position to force the call. The guy does hustle.

[devildeac]

What I actually find most amusing about this article is that the illustirous author makes no mention of the fact that UNC's team has changed the way that it is playing, as has Hansbra, and thus, his touches in the paint have probably decreased.

Let's consider Tyler for a second. Now, first off, his minutes have dropped. Last year he averaged 33 mpg, and this year he is averaging 29.5 mpg. His shots per game have fallen from 13.7 to 12.9. Now, since he shoots pretty much everytime that he touches the ball, I'm gonna assume that this is a good indicator of how many times he's getting the rock each game :D. His rebounds have significantly dropped, from 10.2 to 7.5 rpg, and he's already attempted 15 3 pointers this season in 22 games, whereas he took 7 in 39 games last season. I look at the rebounds and the 3s as an indicator of TH's attempt to show off his outside game for the NBDL scouts. He's looking to shoot jumpers more and thus he's a. not in position to rebound as much, and b. getting fouled less, which would lead to his decrease in trips to the stripe.

What about the other players for UNC? Look at Danny Green. Last year 22.3 mpg versus 26.3 mpg this season. His shots taken per game have gone from 8.8 to 10.1. Lawson trends the same way... 25.3 mpg last year to 28.7 mpg this year, and 8.5 spg against 9.3 spg. And perhaps most importantly, Deon Thompson has gone from 21.4 mpg to 25.8 this season and from 7.5 spg last year to 9 spg this year!

So, essentially, Tyler's PT and shots per game have gone down, the rest of the team's numbers there have gone up (especially thier other dominant post-player's numbers) and consequently Tyler's not getting to the stripe as often. Is it possible that this is the reason and not some giant ref/ACC conspiracy?

And this is exactly the accurate logical/rational/statistical analysis that will have little if any influence on your typical unc fans (and other Duke haters out there) who are "petitioning" the acc office/officials that TH is not being treated fairly any more.:rolleyes:;)

[JStuart]

I'll echo DevilDeac as well. I'll also repeat what I've noted on several occasions; I've never seen an ACC big man so protected by the refs so early. Most star players in the ACC get little respect as freshmen by the ACC refs, and get called accordingly. By the time they become seniors -before the NBA defections- most of the star players learn how to get respect from the officials, and it used to be that seniors would get calls that freshmen never got.
Hansbrough with all his awkwardness never seemed to go through a freshman period, and indeed, to my knowledge, he has only fouled out of one game, as a freshman, against BC, January 25, 2006.
Now if he were 'silky smooth', and the epitome of big man elegance, there could be an argument, but his game is pushing folks out of the way, shuffling his feet, and shotputting in order to get fouls called.
I remember JJ Redick being pulled and grabbed at such that his jersey had to be replaced due to stretching, but officials stopped calling the fouls that were obvious out in the perimeter during his senior year. Where was Greg Barnes then? (the author of the original article)

[JDev]

That article is ridiculous. Didn't it say he is leading the nation in free throw attempts per game? The NATION!? How do you complain that he doesn't get to the line enough? That fanbase is blissfully unaware that he initiates quite a bit of that conduct. Also, as some others have mentioned, he is not taking as many shots as he used to. If you take fewer shots, you will get to the line less often. It isn't rocket science. As long as he is the top free throw shooter in the conference, I don't think they have much room to whine.

[weezie]

I wonder if T-bangs wears keister pads like they do in hockey? I would imagine they would cushion his derriere nicely. For someone so abused by
"EVERY" other team on the schedule, he would otherwise have one bruised backside.

[Classof06]

In all honesty, I too think refs have stopped giving Hansbrough the calls he usually got. And, at least to me, it's actually pretty noticeable. I have no problem with it because I thought he got away with murder his first three years of college. But refs have definitely been less quick with the whistle concerning Hansbrough and I think it's about where it should be.

I didn't get to watch much of the Miami game, so I didn't see "the flop" but on the whole, just watchin the games (have no idea about the FT stats) it's hard to argue that Hansbrough is still getting the calls he did last year. He's just not. Coincidentally, he probably won't get player of the year this year, either :D

[SMO]

In all honesty, I too think refs have stopped giving Hansbrough the calls he usually got. And, at least to me, it's actually pretty noticeable. I have no problem with it because I thought he got away with murder his first three years of college. But refs have definitely been less quick with the whistle concerning Hansbrough and I think it's about where it should be.

I didn't get to watch much of the Miami game, so I didn't see "the flop" but on the whole, just watchin the games (have no idea about the FT stats) it's hard to argue that Hansbrough is still getting the calls he did last year. He's just not. Coincidentally, he probably won't get player of the year this year, either :D

It's interesting, I think this trend may have started late last season. If my memory serves me well, I think Duke defended him well at Cameron and he didn't get any benefit of the doubt against Kansas. Funny how Heels fans think it just ain't right, daggumit!

[pfrduke]

In all honesty, I too think refs have stopped giving Hansbrough the calls he usually got. And, at least to me, it's actually pretty noticeable. I have no problem with it because I thought he got away with murder his first three years of college. But refs have definitely been less quick with the whistle concerning Hansbrough and I think it's about where it should be.

I didn't get to watch much of the Miami game, so I didn't see "the flop" but on the whole, just watchin the games (have no idea about the FT stats) it's hard to argue that Hansbrough is still getting the calls he did last year. He's just not. Coincidentally, he probably won't get player of the year this year, either :D

Hansbrough's fouls drawn/40 numbers disagree with you, although they obviously don't tell the whole story

Freshman: 7.7 (6th nationally)
Sophomore: 7.8 (9th nationally)
Junior: 8.1 (3rd nationally)
Senior: 8.1 (4th nationally)

The only way he's not getting the calls he got last year is if guys are playing him much rougher this year (that is, he's getting "fouled" during the game more often, but officials are still only blowing the whistle 8 times).

As an aside, to the extent that drawing fouls is a skill (which I think it is), he has excelled at it since walking on campus. Top 10 in the country 4 years running and with high rate consistency.

[blueprofessor]

That article is ridiculous. Didn't it say he is leading the nation in free throw attempts per game? The NATION!? How do you complain that he doesn't get to the line enough? That fanbase is blissfully unaware that he initiates quite a bit of that conduct. Also, as some others have mentioned, he is not taking as many shots as he used to. If you take fewer shots, you will get to the line less often. It isn't rocket science. As long as he is the top free throw shooter in the conference, I don't think they have much room to whine.

...generation.Even a semi-serious writer would never publish this propaganda because its thesis is absurd on its face.The Carolina ball is being shared more this year and Hans more frequently is doing his travel dance further from the basket. He's still ranks at the top nationally in fouls drawn and foul shots, but that isn't important because he is a state schooler having to compete against the rich,snooty ,private, academically much better schools like Duke, and he is entitled...


I really feel sorry for a fan base that needs to believe and digest this prostituted nonsense on a regular basis. Aren't there other symbols or constituent parts of their school of which they can be proud sans the brainwashed presentation? Pathetic.
Best regards---Blue "Dark Blue" Professor:):D:mad:

[SushiChef]

If you're too lazy to examine the game film and want to base your judgement of officiating solely on statistics, kenpom.com is probably the most relevant thing to look at:

http://kenpom.com/team.php?y=2009&team=North%20Carolina

Hansbrough has a FC/40 (fouls committed per 40 minutes) of 2.9 and a FD/40 (fouls drawn per 40 minutes) of 8.1. To put that in prospective, Kyle Singler has a FC/40 of 3.2. The most staggering stat is the FD/40. Only 3 players lead Hansbrough in FD/40. If anything, you'd have to argue that the calls are going his way based on those statistics (which are accumulated over the course of the entire season).

[SushiChef]

If you're too lazy to examine the game film and want to base your judgement of officiating solely on statistics, kenpom.com is probably the most relevant thing to look at:

http://kenpom.com/team.php?y=2009&team=North%20Carolina

Hansbrough has a FC/40 (fouls committed per 40 minutes) of 2.9 and a FD/40 (fouls drawn per 40 minutes) of 8.1. To put that in prospective, Kyle Singler has a FC/40 of 3.2. The most staggering stat is the FD/40. Only 3 players lead Hansbrough in FD/40. If anything, you'd have to argue that the calls are going his way based on those statistics (which are accumulated over the course of the entire season).

Not only am I too lazy to examine game film, but I'm also too lazy to read the entire thread pfrduke had already mentioned some of these stats. Sorry for the redundancy.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Game tape. That's all that matters. If plays are being missed consistently, adjustments should be made. But cherry-picked data are evidence of nothing.

The article was crap.

The officials in the ACC are crap.
I've watched a lot of ACC games this season, and they are just plain bad. For whatever team you wish to root for. I think the ACC should get rid of them all and start from scratch.

I am a poker player. One of the first things I had to learn,(the hard way) is that each hand played is independent of the other. The mind wants to create patterns, but the 52 cards are inanimate objects and a hand put out should be judged on its own merit, regardless of the previous hand, or series of hands.
Example:" I've missed that flush draw five times in a row, i'll put my money in this time because I'm due to hit one".
The reality is the odds to make that draw were the same, and will be the same, every time. (Assuming the deck is not rigged, can we make the same assumption officials are not biased?).
(Answer: No, but they should be unbiased).

Point is, fouls are, or should be like cards, judged on the merit of what they are. If it's a foul, call the darn foul! If not, don't call the darn foul! The rule books are pretty clear in most instances.

Let a player's skill determine the game, not an official's bias. And especially not a coaches, or the fans intimidation of an official affecting the calls.

In short officials.... Do your job!

pfrduke wrote:
"The only way he's not getting the calls he got last year is if guys are playing him much rougher this year (that is, he's getting "fouled" during the game more often, but officials are still only blowing the whistle 8 times)".

That is what's happenning, IMO, and what is frustrating me as a UNC fan. TH is getting HACKED in games and there are no calls. I can take the non calls on the touch fouls, but not HackaHans D teams are playing on him this year because they can't keep him from sealing off his position down low.

And there have been plenty of times TH has gotten the benefit of marginal touch fouls his first three seasons, which I know frustrates opposing fans.
But I think many of those calls relate to TH's natural ability to get his defender off balance and frustrated, along with the Ref's being so bad that they assumed a foul was coming when they saw an off balance defender, blowing the whistle on what they thought "had to happen". I don't blame TH for bad officials.

pfrduke also wrote this:
"...to the extent that drawing fouls is a skill (which I think it is), he has excelled at it since walking on campus. Top 10 in the country 4 years running and with high rate consistency.

This is correct. Sensing the balance of a defender is hugh deal. Some players just have it, most don't. He creates situations where defenders are off balance and who foul him making up for it.
Charles Barkley comes to mind a an example of a guy who could body up with bigger players and find the "seems" by feel.
(Yes, I did just compare a TH skill to the Round Mound of Rebound;).

The disdain of TH is becoming irrational among fans, Just like it was for some other very good players, JJ, Wojo...and Laettner. Why so many Duke guys? :)

For an official to judge him differently than any other player is unacceptable, and it's happening. I think we can all agree on that.

[Kimist]

Hopefully the mods will not find this one "offensive".....

[bhd28]

pfrduke wrote:
"The only way he's not getting the calls he got last year is if guys are playing him much rougher this year (that is, he's getting "fouled" during the game more often, but officials are still only blowing the whistle 8 times)".

That is what's happenning, IMO, and what is frustrating me as a UNC fan. TH is getting HACKED in games and there are no calls. I can take the non calls on the touch fouls, but not HackaHans D teams are playing on him this year because they can't keep him from sealing off his position down low.

And there have been plenty of times TH has gotten the benefit of marginal touch fouls his first three seasons, which I know frustrates opposing fans.
But I think many of those calls relate to TH's natural ability to get his defender off balance and frustrated, along with the Ref's being so bad that they assumed a foul was coming when they saw an off balance defender, blowing the whistle on what they thought "had to happen". I don't blame TH for bad officials.


Wait... so he got benefit from poor officiating his first 3 years, and you are cool with that. This year, he isn't getting that benefit... in fact you feel poor officiating is hurting him... and that upsets you. Seems fair and unbiased to me. ;)

[_Gary]

Wheat, I might be inclined to feel for you and the Heels if you'll admit that Duke was getting hosed by the ACC refs regularly a couple of years ago. It got so bad a crew got suspended because of everything the Terping had created over the course of several years.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Wait... so he got benefit from poor officiating his first 3 years, and you are cool with that. This year, he isn't getting that benefit... in fact you feel poor officiating is hurting him... and that upsets you. Seems fair and unbiased to me. ;)

Nah, I was just aknowledging that he got some undeserved calls at times his first three years and bad officiating along with his gift for getting defenders off balance was a big reason why.

What I am cool with is for the officials to judge each play as it develops, regardless of the player.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Wheat, I might be inclined to feel for you and the Heels if you'll admit that Duke was getting hosed by the ACC refs regularly a couple of years ago. It got so bad a crew got suspended because of everything the Terping had created over the course of several years.

Every ACC team has been getting hosed. They really are that bad.

[SushiChef]

Point is, fouls are, or should be like cards, judged on the merit of what they are. If it's a foul, call the darn foul! If not, don't call the darn foul! The rule books are pretty clear in most instances.



I agree with this point of view. Another prime example is at the end of the Wake game when Gerry was hacked coming down from a rebound and it was a no-call because officials don't like let fouls determine the end of a game. Ideally foul calls should be memoryless, but the human factor that officials add to the mix do not make it possible.

[Biscuit]

If you're too lazy to examine the game film and want to base your judgement of officiating solely on statistics, kenpom.com is probably the most relevant thing to look at:

http://kenpom.com/team.php?y=2009&team=North%20Carolina

Hansbrough has a FC/40 (fouls committed per 40 minutes) of 2.9 and a FD/40 (fouls drawn per 40 minutes) of 8.1. To put that in prospective, Kyle Singler has a FC/40 of 3.2. The most staggering stat is the FD/40. Only 3 players lead Hansbrough in FD/40. If anything, you'd have to argue that the calls are going his way based on those statistics (which are accumulated over the course of the entire season).

Singler blocks a lot more shots than Hansbourgh, even though he spends a lot more time on the perimeter. As I've said here before, Hansbrough's lack of shotblocking as compared to other big men is so startling that you have to conclude that it's a conscious decision by the coaching staff to keep him out of foul trouble, and also under the boards. Obviously, if you don't try to block shots, you don't have nearly as many chances to pick up fouls on the defensive end.

On the offensive end- yeah, he knows how to draw fouls. And he probably got the benefit of the doubt a little last year. And he definitely got the benefit of the doubt in that charge call vs. Miami. But his style is pretty much exactly what you'd draw up as a prototype for foul-drawing. He plays very tough inside, he has a wide array of post moves, and he has impressive speed and intuitiveness to get out on the break- and UNC breaks all the time. It seems like he gets fouled by a trailer while finishing a break at least once a game. Also, UNC's pace of play means more possessions per game, and this more opportunities to draw fouls per game.

So ... apples and oranges here. In fact, you really can't do a statistical analysis of players/fouls fairly, because style of play has such a huge impact on foul rates, and that's not captured here.

[blueprofessor]

The disdain of TH is becoming irrational among fans, Just like it was for some other very good players, JJ, Wojo...and Laettner. Why so many Duke guys? :)

For an official to judge him differently than any other player is unacceptable, and it's happening. I think we can all agree on that.

...Maryland fans, who chant the same vulgarity the entire game; when Hanstravel endures homophobic insults in many venues;and when Hanstravel's family is accosted and cursed in the stands , I will feel some sympathy for him as being irrationally hated!

Of course that will never happen and if anything like it did happen the Carolina homeboy press would howl as if their favorite pointer were stolen.

At no time could PsychoT be in the conversation as the victim of uncalled fouls. JJ was fouled-no call on his jump shot more often than I can remember any ACC player in 20 years--- in an upperclass season, I seem to remember that he shot fouls after three point shots less than 10 times that season---about what PsychoT gets in one blessed game! IMHO, no player in the last 20 years of ACC play has been as protected (traveling, bumping, charging) as PsychoT.
Unfortunately, your press and fans have acted as if the basketball team is the only thing of which your university can be proud and, truth and any shred of objectivity be damned, circled the wagons to protect the one family jewel (singular intent).

Best regards.Blueprofessor:):D

[Biscuit]

...Maryland fans, who chant the same vulgarity the entire game; when Hanstravel endures homophobic insults in many venues;and when Hanstravel's family is accosted and cursed in the stands , I will feel some sympathy for him as being irrationally hated!

Of course that will never happen and if anything like it did happen the Carolina homeboy press would howl as if their favorite pointer were stolen.

At no time could PsychoT be in the conversation as the victim of uncalled fouls. JJ was fouled-no call on his jump shot more often than I can remember any ACC player in 20 years--- in an upperclass season, I seem to remember that he shot fouls after three point shots less than 10 times that season---about what PsychoT gets in one blessed game! IMHO, no player in the last 20 years of ACC play has been as protected (traveling, bumping, charging) as PsychoT.
Unfortunately, your press and fans have acted as if the basketball team is the only thing of which your university can be proud and, truth and any shred of objectivity be damned, circled the wagons to protect the one family jewel (singular intent).

Best regards.Blueprofessor:):D

Wow. I've seen some quality UNC hate-rants around here, and when I come to this board I obviously expect it. I'm your guest here and I know that. But this takes the cake, the pie, and the rest of the desserts. You'd think Duke lost last night or something!

Basketball is the only thing we can be proud of? Really?

Look, I agree that Hansbrough gets some love from the officials. Just like all big time players from ALL programs- including Duke- and at all levels of the game.

But I also just made a rational argument as to why his foul numbers are they way they are. I'd love to hear a thoughtful response to those arguments.

[Biscuit]

...in an upperclass season, I seem to remember that he shot fouls after three point shots less than 10 times that season...

Best regards.Blueprofessor:):D

Also, foul calls after three point shots are very rare. That's why people often use three point shots taken as way to evaluate whether a player's game is the kind that's prone to draw fouls- like Hansbrough- or not- like Redick.

And that doesn't even take into account the fact that a defender would be a total and complete idiot to come within 3 feet of fouling JJ, who made about 40% of his threes but upwards of 90% of his free throws. The expected value even on a wide open three is far lower than the value on three free throw attempts by a guy who's automatic. In fact, I'm totally surprised he got to the line from behind the arc at all!

[blueprofessor]

Also, foul calls after three point shots are very rare. That's why people often use three point shots taken as way to evaluate whether a player's game is the kind that's prone to draw fouls- like Hansbrough- or not- like Redick.


It is wrong to fail to call fouls that are not committed on Hanstravel, but correct to not call committed fouls on another player's 3-point shots.

Well, this would be an example of Carolina homer reporting.Are you a Carolina writer?

Best hopes for you----Blueprofessor:)

[Biscuit]

It is wrong to fail to call fouls that are not committed on Hanstravel, but correct to not call committed fouls on another player's 3-point shots.

Well, this would be an example of Carolina homer reporting.Are you a Carolina writer?

Best hopes for you----Blueprofessor:)

My point was that although I'm not gonna go back and look at an entire season worth of film, it seems reasonable to think that there weren't very many fouls committed on JJ when he was shooting threes, because (1) there aren't many fouls committed on 3 point shots generally, and (2) a defender would be particularly stupid to foul JJ when he shoots a three, because the expected point production of sending him to the line would be so much higher than the expected point production even if you left him completely alone to bomb away at will. I was complementing your guy's amazing free throw shooting!

I'm here to play nice, I swear. But don't go twisting my words around.

[allenmurray]

My point was that although I'm not gonna go back and look at an entire season worth of film, it seems reasonable to think that there weren't very many fouls committed on JJ when he was shooting threes, because (1) there aren't many fouls committed on 3 point shots generally, and (2) a defender would be particularly stupid to foul JJ when he shoots a three, because the expected point production of sending him to the line would be so much higher than the expected point production even if you left him completely alone to bomb away at will. I was complementing your guy's amazing free throw shooting!

I'm here to play nice, I swear. But don't go twisting my words around.

You are here as our guest, and you do play nice, and when guests come to your home and act nice they shouldn't be treated in such a rude way. I don't understand the nasty tone of blueprofessor's posts - that is somewhat out of character. I also think it is exactly what was being addressed in this thread:
http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14479 We try to be welcoming even to our UNC guests.

[Biscuit]

You are here as our guest, and you do play nice, and when guest come to your home and act nice they shouldn't be treated in such a rude way. I don't understand the nasty tone of blueprofessor's posts - that is somewhat out of character. I also think it is exactly what was being addressed in this thread:
http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14479

Thanks. Although in fairness to him, I kinda barged my way in there with an unsolicited response to his rant a couple posts ago.

In a weird way, I'm intrigued by all the stuff Hansbrough stirs up in ACC fans. There's a ton of interesting stuff that it brings to light, because of his style of play, his school, his attitude, and frankly, his race. Would be get even more hatred if he went to Duke? Less if he went anywhere else?

And of course his style of play, designed to draw a lot of fouls but also on the brink of losing control at times, lends itself to endless conversations about referreeing, like this one.

For a big man who most consider a blue-collar-type player who doesn't make a lot of plays that people would consider spectacular, he sure keeps things interesting.

[blueprofessor]

My point was that although I'm not gonna go back and look at an entire season worth of film, it seems reasonable to think that there weren't very many fouls committed on JJ when he was shooting threes, because (1) there aren't many fouls committed on 3 point shots generally, and (2) a defender would be particularly stupid to foul JJ when he shoots a three, because the expected point production of sending him to the line would be so much higher than the expected point production even if you left him completely alone to bomb away at will. I was complementing your guy's amazing free throw shooting!

.
...the shot,a fact that was common knowledge on this board .These fouls were infrequently called despite their being chronicled.
If, in fact , foul calls on 3-point shots are uncommon,that does not prove fouls were not frequently committed on JJ's 3-pointers. They were.

In regard to it being stupid to foul JJ---it is not stupid if you can get away with it.And they did.
Coach Knight commented last night that committing stupid fouls was common :) and unforgivable. Players do not always think smartly in the heat of play.
Now, in regard to Hanstravel, I admire his grit and no-quit attitude and I can understand why anyone could appreciate these elements of his game.Personally, I appreciate the perspective fans of other teams bring to this board.

Best regards--- Blue "a foul 21 feet from the basket is as much of a foul as one 2 feet from the basket" professor:D

[hurleyfor3]

For a big man who most consider a blue-collar-type player who doesn't make a lot of plays that people would consider spectacular, he sure keeps things interesting.

I think the bolded part is what's so annoying to the rest of us. He's the latest in an endless series of Pete Chilcutts, Eric Montrosses and Brendon Haywoods. Big guys who do one or two things well (I swear Montross had *one* move), and isn't asked to do anything he's not good at. He can get into position and shoot and rebound in the first place because defenses have to worry about more than him. He can be a telephone pole on defense because other guys are better on-the-ball defenders.

[allenmurray]

Would be get even more hated if he went to Duke? Less if he went anywhere else?

If he went to Duke, everything that Duke fans currently see as a negative we would instead see as a positive - that is the nature of fandom. On the other hand, he would be far more hated in general if he went to Duke - there is a national hatred of Duke.


And of course his style of play, designed to draw a lot of fouls but also on the brink of losing control at times, lends itself to endless conversations about referreeing, like this one.

I think he will be an "average" NBA bench player. He won't go to the line nearly as much - just the different nature of the two leagues. Given that a very high percentage of his points come from the free throw line he won't be nearly the scoring threat in the NBA that he is now.

[_Gary]

If he went to Duke, everything that Duke fans currently see as a negative we would instead see as a positive - that is the nature of fandom. On the other hand, he would be far more hated in general if he went to Duke - there is a national hatred of Duke.

Absolutely, 100% true Allen!

And while I too want to welcome Biscuit to feel free to come in and talk with us at any time he wants, I have to say I really do agree with BlueProffesor's first post about Hans. He hit the nail on the head with everything he wrote, IMHO. He gets a thumbs up from me for that post.

[Biscuit]

I think the bolded part is what's so annoying to the rest of us. He's the latest in an endless series of Pete Chilcutts, Eric Montrosses and Brendon Haywoods. Big guys who do one or two things well (I swear Montross had *one* move), and isn't asked to do anything he's not good at. He can get into position and shoot and rebound in the first place because defenses have to worry about more than him. He can be a telephone pole on defense because other guys are better on-the-ball defenders.

He does a lot more than one or two things. He is a lot faster than most men his size, and even though you obviously want him to take a 15 foot J as a defender, his is still passable, and far better than most PFs and Cs at the college level. He's also very creative on putbacks, especially when he gets trapped under the board.

My theory on his defense has always been that he's passive because he needs to stay out of foul trouble. He avoids blocked shot attempts because trying to block shots is the best way to accumulate fouls by the barrel. Roy wants him on the court for his offensive production, which is why you rarely see him guarding the post if the opponent has a quality offensive threat in the front court.

[allenmurray]

He does a lot more than one or two things. He is a lot faster than most men his size, and even though you obviously want him to take a 15 foot J as a defender, his is still passable, and far better than most PFs and Cs at the college level. He's also very creative on putbacks, especially when he gets trapped under the board.

My theory on his defense has always been that he's passive because he needs to stay out of foul trouble. He avoids blocked shot attempts because trying to block shots is the best way to accumulate fouls by the barrel. Roy wants him on the court for his offensive production, which is why you rarely see him guarding the post if the opponent has a quality offensive threat in the front court.

I agree that he is faster than folks think. However, he is not quick. Those are two different things. Shot-blocking requires a lot of quickness. Even if he went after a lot of blocks I'm not sure how effective he'd be. In addition, even though he has a passable jump shot, his lack of quickness will keep it from being an effective tool in the NBA - it takes him a little bit longer to get ready than he will ever get in the NBA, guys who are just as big, and just as strong, but a whole lot quicker, will prevent that shot.

I think Williams' discouraging him from blocking shots is wise, and is probably a big part of why he doesn't pick up more fouls. He is too valuable offensively to worry about the few points he might prevent if he went after more blocks. I think Williams has gotten the best TH has to give - I don't meant that as a criticism of TH, but as a compliment to Williams.

[Fish80]

Hopefully the mods will not find this one "offensive".....

IIRC, that play was in the Dean Dome in '08. Nolan was moving so fast that he created a vortex much like the swirl flowing off the tips of a jet's wings. The force of the vortex blew Handsblow backward. That was not a flop. ;)

[devildeac]

Wow. I've seen some quality UNC hate-rants around here, and when I come to this board I obviously expect it. I'm your guest here and I know that. But this takes the cake, the pie, and the rest of the desserts. You'd think Duke lost last night or something!

Basketball is the only thing we can be proud of? Really?

Look, I agree that Hansbrough gets some love from the officials. Just like all big time players from ALL programs- including Duke- and at all levels of the game.

But I also just made a rational argument as to why his foul numbers are they way they are. I'd love to hear a thoughtful response to those arguments.

See Mullet Man's analysis earlier on this thread. Pretty good work and thinking on his part.

[devildeac]

My point was that although I'm not gonna go back and look at an entire season worth of film, it seems reasonable to think that there weren't very many fouls committed on JJ when he was shooting threes, because (1) there aren't many fouls committed on 3 point shots generally, and (2) a defender would be particularly stupid to foul JJ when he shoots a three, because the expected point production of sending him to the line would be so much higher than the expected point production even if you left him completely alone to bomb away at will. I was complementing your guy's amazing free throw shooting!

I'm here to play nice, I swear. But don't go twisting my words around.

Thanks for visiting and playing nice and civil. I think what still rubs our fannies the wrong way is the current way of calling a game with TH but remembering how many times JJ was grabbed/shoved/wrestled to the court coming around/off screens with few whistles to his benefit.

[killerleft]

Although they called a fair number of these, it was the holding calls as JJ tried to separate from his defender that the refs often refused to make. His last two years, he was held repeatedly by defenders as he made cuts and moved around screens. Very few guards have ever taken the physical abuse JJ was subject to getting - no wonder he tired toward the end of the year.

[JDev]

He does a lot more than one or two things. He is a lot faster than most men his size, and even though you obviously want him to take a 15 foot J as a defender, his is still passable, and far better than most PFs and Cs at the college level. He's also very creative on putbacks, especially when he gets trapped under the board.

My theory on his defense has always been that he's passive because he needs to stay out of foul trouble. He avoids blocked shot attempts because trying to block shots is the best way to accumulate fouls by the barrel. Roy wants him on the court for his offensive production, which is why you rarely see him guarding the post if the opponent has a quality offensive threat in the front court.

I think he avoids foul trouble because he plays about as much defense as the rest of the Tar Heels. But, alas, Roy doesn't know how to f***ing fix that.;)

I'm being sarcastic obviously, and if he were in a Duke uniform we would love him, and you would see what it looks like for a player to be really hated. If he gets it bad now, it would be nucleur if he were a Blue Devil.

[devildeac]

Thanks. Although in fairness to him, I kinda barged my way in there with an unsolicited response to his rant a couple posts ago.

In a weird way, I'm intrigued by all the stuff Hansbrough stirs up in ACC fans. There's a ton of interesting stuff that it brings to light, because of his style of play, his school, his attitude, and frankly, his race. Would be get even more hatred if he went to Duke? Less if he went anywhere else?

And of course his style of play, designed to draw a lot of fouls but also on the brink of losing control at times, lends itself to endless conversations about referreeing, like this one.

For a big man who most consider a blue-collar-type player who doesn't make a lot of plays that people would consider spectacular, he sure keeps things interesting.

Who do you think was hated more around the ACC: TH, JJ, Hurley or Laettner? I'd venture that if TH was wearing the much more palatable shade of blue that he would be "hated" as much, or more, than some of our players. Just thinking out loud here (with my keyboard);).

[Biscuit]

Who do you think was hated more around the ACC: TH, JJ, Hurley or Laettner? I'd venture that if TH was wearing the much more palatable shade of blue that he would be "hated" as much, or more, than some of our players. Just thinking out loud here (with my keyboard);).

I totally agree with you and others here. I wasn't saying that it's debatable; just that it's an interesting touch-off point for a discussion about why. I think a lot of the reasons the public dislikes Duke are embodied in Hansbrough: the media fawning, including the grating latent racism that the media pulls out when they always seem to describe white guys are "scrappy" or "hardworking" or whatever, the perceived ref bias, the on-court passion, and so on. Just makes for an interesting discussion, is all.

On other points made here: I agree that Hansbrough is fast but not quick. He is fortunate to be playing on a team where being fast is so important. I don't know how well his skills will translate to the NBA.

And on the tangent about JJ getting fouled vs Hansbrough- I guess I kind of remember some talk about people grabbing JJ coming off screens, but I never realized it was a major bone of contention for you all. Sorry. I guess it's because the idea of fouling JJ for ANY reason on the perimeter seems so ill-advised that I can't imagine a coach or player even considering it as a strategy. As I said before, a coach would have been better off letting JJ chuck threes unguarded and having his five players form a circle near the rim to get the rebound. At least in that case JJ would average 1.5 or 2 points per shot. If you foul him while shooting 3s he'd average three points per shot. So I just find it hard to believe they'd even think about rolling the dice on that one by making body contact or trying to poke the ball away or something. But people make mistakes all the time.

It's different for Hansbrough because most of the non-calls UNC fans are now complaining about happen right under the basket, where Hansbrough would otherwise automatically score two points. In particular there's been a couple replays in the last couple games showing him getting chopped across the arm at around the elbow while bringing the ball up for a power move, with no call made. Those replays have kind of been the touchstone for stuff like the IC post. Most of us recognize that over the long haul he's been given star treatment, but it's hard to watch the replays over the last few games when he's been getting absolutely mugged and not get upset. Add to that the possible concussion, and you get a little defensive about your team's players.

[allenmurray]

And on the tangent about JJ getting fouled vs Hansbrough- I guess I kind of remember some talk about people grabbing JJ coming off screens, but I never realized it was a major bone of contention for you all. Sorry. I guess it's because the idea of fouling JJ for ANY reason on the perimeter seems so ill-advised that I can't imagine a coach or player even considering it as a strategy. As I said before, a coach would have been better off letting JJ chuck threes unguarded and having his five players form a circle near the rim to get the rebound. At least in that case JJ would average 1.5 or 2 points per shot. If you foul him while shooting 3s he'd average three points per shot. So I just find it hard to believe they'd even think about rolling the dice on that one by making body contact or trying to poke the ball away or something. But people make mistakes all the time.

I'm not sure it was a mistake, we're not talking about fouling him on the perimeter. Often JJ would cut through the lane in order to get to the perimeter and get open. If he is cutting through trying to get open for a shot, then the fouls would not be in the act of shooting. Therefore the first few are freebies - you prevent him from scoring at all. Rather than a mistake I thnk it was a strategy - that is what made the non-calls so egregious. Even when in the bonus it is at best two points, rather than the three he might get if he comes through the lane and gets open.

[Biscuit]

I'm not sure it was a mistake, we're not talking about fouling him on the perimeter. Often JJ would cut through the lane in order to get to the perimeter and get open. If he is cutting through trying to get open for a shot, then the fouls would not be in the act of shooting. Therefore the first few are freebies - you prevent him from scoring at all. Rather than a mistake I thnk it was a strategy - that is what made the non-calls so egregious. Even when in the bonus it is at best two points, rather than the three he might get if he comes through the lane and gets open.

Yeah, obviously pre-shot would be a totally different thing. As I said, I didn't realize this was such a point of contention for you all. I was around back then, just don't remember it being discussed much.

[JStuart]

Biscuit said,
"As I've said here before, Hansbrough's lack of shotblocking as compared to other big men is so startling that you have to conclude that it's a conscious decision by the coaching staff to keep him out of foul trouble, and also under the boards. Obviously, if you don't try to block shots, you don't have nearly as many chances to pick up fouls on the defensive end."

IF Hansbrough played for Duke (did we recruit him?) how would K use him? would he have him play like Zoubs, or would he have him lay off blocking shots as Biscuit suggests? Would he get as many minutes, or would we be bemoaning his lack of time, due to his defensive liabilities?
Hmmm...

[Wheat/"/"/"]

If you want to know why TH gets so many fouls called, it's because he gets fouled alot. Look no futher than the frustration level he puts opposing fans through, let alone other players who guard him. How many of you would do a Henderson block on him right now if you were guarding the rim? The heck with the whistle, right? :)

Here's the bread and butter. Watch the next game and spot the play, and I bet he scores, or the foul is called 3 of 4 times. (The 4th time he gets his lunch packed:o

TH is at the top of the key, setting a screen for the wing. As the ball rotates, TH stands upright, turns facing the basket, chest to chest to the defender, moving towards the rim, he jogs a little left, then a little right, still upright. Suddenly, just inside the foul line when he senses he can get the defender on his hip, he power spins left, spreads his legs wide, crouches low and stretches out his arms, sealing the defender behind him. A very strong, 6'9" 250lbs, planted. The defender bodies him from behind, and fights to front him, but is not strong enough to move TH's feet, or get through those outstretched arms. Entry pass is made and a variety of moves will then occur, according to if TH senses the defender is off balance, or how quick the double team arrives.
Defenders being late, or off balance and reaching, gets TH a score or a foul.

How much more could he score if he was playing with Ed Cota? Cota was a master of getting the entry pass into Jamison. UNC is weak making that pass today.

[JStuart]

Say, Wheat,
Is that you in the Bassmaster promo currently running on ESPN?

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Say, Wheat,
Is that you in the Bassmaster promo currently running on ESPN?

Not me.
I've just switched to the Bassmasters Tour from the Wal-Mart FLW Tour this season. Had to step down to the Open level, (like the Nationwide Tour in golf), now I have to re-qualify my way back to what ESPN calls the Elite Tour.
Working on it.
I'm guilty of some smack talk sometimes, I know. And I'm as bad on my bass fishing friends as I am my hoop friends. Here's some cheap entertainment for you...Click on "Sandy Melvin, on Lake Okeechobee (http://www.myoutdoortv.com/show-microsite-fishing/scott-martin-challenge.html)" under more videos.

[bjornolf]

Yeah, obviously pre-shot would be a totally different thing. As I said, I didn't realize this was such a point of contention for you all. I was around back then, just don't remember it being discussed much.

There were games where he was bleeding from scratches on his arms and had black eyes and he had to replace his jersey several times cause it was so stretched from being pulled, and he rarely got calls. He even got knocked down several times without the call. They didn't even BOTHER calling the ones where his jersey got grabbed despite it pulling almost a foot off his back and even strangling him a little a few times. And on the shot, I remember more than once him being knocked to the ground legitimately without a whistle. Ah well, that's the way the ball bounces.

The fans were the worst though. I mean, who holds signs and does cheers involving sexual references to a player's minor, younger sister? Who does crap like that? Seriously. That's just wrong on every level.

[Virginian]

If you want to know why TH gets so many fouls called, it's because he gets fouled alot. Look no futher than the frustration level he puts opposing fans through, let alone other players who guard him. How many of you would do a Henderson block on him right now if you were guarding the rim? The heck with the whistle, right? :)

Here's the bread and butter. Watch the next game and spot the play, and I bet he scores, or the foul is called 3 of 4 times. (The 4th time he gets his lunch packed:o

TH is at the top of the key, setting a screen for the wing. As the ball rotates, TH stands upright, turns facing the basket, chest to chest to the defender, moving towards the rim, he jogs a little left, then a little right, still upright. Suddenly, just inside the foul line when he senses he can get the defender on his hip, he power spins left, spreads his legs wide, crouches low and stretches out his arms, sealing the defender behind him. A very strong, 6'9" 250lbs, planted. The defender bodies him from behind, and fights to front him, but is not strong enough to move TH's feet, or get through those outstretched arms. Entry pass is made and a variety of moves will then occur, according to if TH senses the defender is off balance, or how quick the double team arrives.
Defenders being late, or off balance and reaching, gets TH a score or a foul.

How much more could he score if he was playing with Ed Cota? Cota was a master of getting the entry pass into Jamison. UNC is weak making that pass today.

Yep, he "jogs a little left, then a little right." If only he was also dribbling when he's doing all that jogging!

A more typical play is "TH gets the ball at the high post position and dribbles to the baseline on the left side of the court about 10 feet from the basket. He picks up his dribble, then steps widely left with his left foot, pivots (picking up his right -- pivot -- foot) and then plants his right foot as he faces the basket. Then he leaps with both feet (picking up both feet, including his pivot foot for the second time) and jumps into the lane 6 feet from the basket. All of this happens by TH taking at least four steps after he picked up his dribble and ending up positioned at least 10 feet from where he established his pivot foot. At this point his defender, having recovered, is standing straight up under the basket with his hands up in the air in front of TH. TH crouches with the ball held low against his stomach, and then springs, throwing his shoulder into the defender's chest, knocking him backwards. TH then himself leaps backwards, throwing the ball straight up in the air as he tumbles backwards, arms flailing as if he's been shot out of a cannon. He ends up sprawled across the floor on his back just in front of the free-throw line. A whistle is blown and TH makes two more of his 15-per-game free throws."

More power to TH that he gets away with this move as many as four or five times a game. But to complain that the refs are not giving him sufficient attention and protection? What absolute rubbish! You aren't going to sell that nonsense on this board.

[Stray Gator]

... A very strong, 6'9" 250lbs, planted. The defender bodies him from behind, and fights to front him, but is not strong enough to move TH's feet, or get through those outstretched arms....

Which is why it's all the more difficult to understand how, when he is on defensive end, the slightest contact frequently sends him sprawling across the floor on his back.

Hansbrough hasn't yet overtaken Redick for the career scoring record, but I'd bet that, if anyone kept such a statistic, he's already surpassed Battier's career record for suspect flops. ;)

[dukeman28428]

No one can dispute Hansbrough plays hard but he is the biggest actor that I have ever seen on the court. He flops, walks, flops and then he walks and he gets away with it almost every time. When he gets to the NBA, he will not be a factor is my guess. I will be glad to see him gone.