Who Has It Worse - Students or Alumni?

[Rich]

After being disappointed by the BC loss I wandered over to my computer to check out the DBR Boards to see what others thought about the game. I am no longer surprised to see the "sky is falling" attitude of those who frequent the Boards and so I only read those posts of names I recognize and "trust." Of course, in my day (Class of '88) we didn't have the internet so we needed to console each other in person after each loss. Presumably, students today still discuss the state of Duke basketball with class and dormmates, although undoubetdly they are also on the Boards posting.

This got me to thinking -- who has it worse when the team loses?

When you're a student, the vast majority of your contact is with other students who share your concerns. Misery loves company and it's always easier to be in a setting where people share your beliefs. I remember going to see my buddy TW two floors up in House CC every time we lost because he always had a way of looking at things in a way that made me feel better.

On the other hand, when you're a student, Duke basketball has a tendency to be all encompassing. It rules your existence during the season. I can't remember a time in my life when I was as disappointed as when we lost the '86 Championship game. It helped that the entire campus shared my grief, but I had been so consumed in the tourney run that losing that game to Louisville seemed like the end of the world at the time. Not to mention "the greatest party in the history of Duke" that wasn't.

Now, as a supposedly older and wiser alum in NJ, I no longer have the mechanism of being around others who share my love for Duke basketball. Sure, my wife acknowledges it, but really does not understand it. So I am left to the internet to see what other people, whom I only know by random screen names, to help me cope with a loss and see what the conventional wisdom says about the state of the team. I know nothing about these people so relying on their thoughts and opinions is pretty much absurd, when it comes right down to it. But what choice do I have?

On the other hand, I have kids and a wife and a mortgage and there are so many things going on in the world that personally affect me that Duke basketball isn't (or shouldn't be) all encompassing. Unlike the way it was for me as a student in that Gothic Wonderland, there are other, more important, distractions in my life now that quickly come to mind that take the place of "is this another late season swoon." In the grand scheme of life, it isn't really such a big deal, is it? However, it's not that easy to dismiss. With everything going on in the world, all I want is for my team to win. That's something I want to be able to rely on. It's my happy oasis and digression in a world of uncertainty. And when that falters, it hurts more, especially with no one around to commiserate.

So, after thinking about it I was curious how others felt. Of course, since students can't really know how it is to be an alum away from the comfy confines of Duke U., this question really goes out to the alum. Was it easier/harder to deal with the ups and downs of Duke basketball as a student or is it harder now as an alum away from school?

[coldriver10]

Interesting question. I'll give my answer as both an alum and a current student and preface this post by saying that while grad students are passionate about Duke sports, it's nothing like the undergrads. I'm going to say it was a lot harder to deal with during undergrad, and this may be for a few reasons:

1. Team quality and expectations

Two of the Duke teams during my undergrad years were better than the more recent bunch: my freshman year with J-Will, Dunleavy, and Boozer, and my senior year with JJ and Shelden. I really "expected" both of those teams to win the championship (more accurately, it was during my year off before grad school that I most thought seniors JJ and Shelden would win it all). The teams the last few years have been good but not championship-worthy in my mind, so when they lose it's arguably less painful than it used to be (though it still hurts like hell).

2. More stuff to keep me busy

This year has been pretty chill, but my other grad school years haven't been as kind to my schedule.

3. I'm not surrounded by and reminded about Duke basketball wherever I go on campus (since it's mostly in and around the hospital)

Those are my thoughts. Don't get me wrong...I'm still as big of a Blue Devil fan as I've ever been, my fiance and I still fight after losses, etc. But I don't think anything can compare to living and breathing Duke basketball for 4 years.

[hurleyfor3]

I'm class of '93. There weren't a whole lot of "downs" back then. We only really had two devastating losses: Unlv in '90, and um... I guess we only had one devastating loss. The Cal game during the '93 tournament was over spring break, and we lost it the right way, with Hurley getting his career high and single-handedly bringing us back from 19 down. Where did those games go?

It's like the college basketball gods have tried to kill my interest the past few years. They let that LSU guy hang on JJ the whole game, then they let all the #1 seeds into the Final Four. Where's the return on investment?

But in some respects, I'm more a general fan of the game. This happened to me with baseball many years ago, once my favorite team was no longer competitive. Although I don't follow college basketball as much as I used to, in the next few weeks I'll be visiting some classic basketball arenas I've always wanted to see.

I always tell myself that when it mattered as much as it possibly could, we were as good as it was possible to be. And no one can take that away from me. Although I've experienced a bit of anti-Duke sentiment, no one has ever directly given me any crap since I moved out of Cackalacky. it's funny how much less people dislike Duke when there's someone in the room who went there. Anyway, back to my point, my stock answer is that I experienced two titles and three Final Fours as a student. How many did you get to see?

[Tar-man]

Rich, I hope you don't mind an intrusion from a Carolina grad / fan, who is also a massive ACC basketball fan. I've been reading the DBR for several years and have always thought it was a great college basketball website and a wonderful source of ACC news and analysis. (Frankly, I wish Carolina basketball had a website this good.) I only more recently started looking at the bulletin boards and this is my first time posting.

I think this is a great question. While obviously my perspective is as a Carolina alum, passion for Carolina and Duke hoops is strikingly similar (part of what makes it such a wonderful rivalry). I grew up a Carolina fan, since my Dad is also a Carolina alum, and then attended Carolina in the early 90s. I have followed the team religiously both before, during and after my college days.

Although I never thought this would be the case, I found it much easier to deal with tough losses when I was a student than when I was a pre-college kid, grad student or now as a grown-up married adult. Since I did not live in North Carolina until college and have lived in the Northeast ever since I graduated undergrad from Chapel Hill, Carolina hoops was, and is now, my one and only link to Chapel Hill and the University. I know this probably sounds silly, but now when we lose a big game, it feels like a massive blow to not just Carolina hoops but to my entire school and college town. While most people know that Carolina has a strong basketball program, those around me (including my wife, even as supportive as she tries to be) simply can not understand the sense of anticipation pre-game or the extreme feelings post-game.

During college, I was an immediate part of the student body, a part of Chapel Hill. That was always there, win or lose. For example, when we got torched at the Dean Dome by Kenny Anderson or when we lost to you guys in Cameron (despite a game performance by a senior Hubert Davis), I just ran over to a good bar on Franklin Street or hung out in the dorms with fellow Tarheels or sat in "the pit." It hurt, but well, life was good and there was so much more to Chapel Hill then just hoops. I even missed two or three games a year when I was in college, whereas post-college I might miss one game every two years or so.

Now, 95% of the time that I think about Chapel Hill it's through Carolina hoops - thinking about the rotations, the last game, the next game, the next year, etc... So the losses and wins become all that much more consuming.

Don't get me wrong, when I was in college I was rabid and intense about Carolina hoops during the games. I just spent a little less time worrying about the next game or fretting about the last game because, well Chapel Hill was literally all around me.

[DukeUsul]

Tar-Man: nice post. Please stick around!

As a student the time window in which you get to experience the team up close and participate in their performance is only four years (for most) and so you are invested in the team performing well right now. You are invested in the short-term, so if the team makes an early exit one year, that's one less year in which you can participate in a championship run. I experienced this very personally as a senior and band member in 1999 as I was lucky enough to go with the team all the way to Tampa. It was devestating to be 20 ft from the court and see them lose by three. My dad still makes fun of me for seeing his 21-year-old son crying on national television after the game.

As an alum, there's always next year. I still get invested in the team's performance (ask my wife about how grouchy I was Sunday night) but I can always say to myself "there's always next year" and my ability to be a participant in next year's potential run is the same as this year's.

I live in Durham and work with ACC fans of all backgrounds (State, Carolina, Clemson, VT, MD) and I'm just very lucky that I've behaved myself through our success early this decade such that they are all being rather nice to me through our early departures the last few years.

[Highlander]

Grew up a Duke fan in NC, which was hard in the late 80s. UNC was the king of the Castle for sure, and although Duke had a nice run of Final Fours in that time, they never "brought home the bacon" as my middle school friends always chided me about. Even some of my teachers would give me grief (although I would occasionally give them some in return). High School during the early 90's was pretty fun though :)

Second phase of my fandom was as a student at Duke. My freshman year was 94-95. I had waited my entire life to watch Duke Basketball, only to see us lose one heartbreaker after another. It took me years to get over the 102-100 game and the 40-19 halftime lead vs. UVA. The fact that I was surrounded by people who had the same allegiances I did made it much easier to deal with. It also taught me a great deal of perspective. I did get to go to the Final Four in 1999, and although I was disappointed that we lost, it didn't last long. I remember thinking that a 37-2 season couldn't be a disappointment after I watched us go 13-18 not 5 years earlier. I also made the Final Four in 2001 which worked out even better.

Post graduation, I've stayed in NC, so I'm around a large contingent of other ACC fans, although most of the ones I interact with are grads of their respective schools. I've found that grads typically have a bit more perspective than non-grads. The one UNC fan I work with was there during the Doherty years and the "season that didn't happen," so he and I talk hoops and leave each other alone around big games. The ones that do give me crap usually do so just to try to get a rise out of me, not because they have any passing interest in the game itself.

So from my perspective, the toughest thing isn't being an adult fan or a college student. It's being a middle school Duke fan in NC when the Tar Heels are on top. Those of you with kids in middle school now probably know EXACTLY what I mean.

[sagegrouse]

So from my perspective, the toughest thing isn't being an adult fan or a college student. It's being a middle school Duke fan in NC when the Tar Heels are on top. Those of you with kids in middle school now probably know EXACTLY what I mean.

Now the difference between the 1980s and the 1950s is also a measure of the progress of civilization. In my schoolboy days, the big issue was not Duke vs. UNC (or Clemson vs USC, inasmuch as I grew up in South Carolina) but Ford vs. Chevy or whether Richard Petty was the greatest driver who ever lived or whether you could drive 90 MPH to Daytona without getting stopped by the highway patrol.

sagegrouse

[sagegrouse]

Tar-Man: nice post. Please stick around!



Ditto, and you are absolutely right.

sagegrouse

[Tar-man]

DukeUsul and Sagegrouse - thanks for the nice words. I was actually hesistant to post, because I didn't want to intrude. It's funny, for years I've been reading the ACC update and other articles on this site but never bothered to read the message boards, mostly because I just assumed they would be as bad as most college b-ball boards which seem to consist primarily of swear words and juvenile jokes. The more I read the posts, I realize how thoughtful the posters here are, which is consistent with (most) everything on this site. I'll add another Carolina perspective from time to time if I think I have something unique to add - will refrain from the nasty stuff (will save that for my Carolina friends).

Back to the topic, DukeUsul, I can definitely understand how you feel about a 4-year shelf life and how those years "count down" to zero and ultimately expire as opposed to always having a "next year" when you are an alum. The interesting thing about Rich's question is that there is no right or wrong answer, but it's just interesting to hear other passionate basketball fans share their experiences.

I think my experience is influenced by two things:

(1) I was a massive Carolina fan for 10+ years before I even started my freshman year at Chapel Hill. Years of watching Phil Ford, Mike O'Koren, Worthy, Jordan, Kenny Smith, etc... had me well prepared for the ups and downs of college basketball and Tarheel basketball by the time I got to Carolina. While I visited Chapel Hill a few times before college with my Dad (who was class of '65), I only really knew Carolina basketball. When I started college, I was blown away by how much I loved the school, the town, the beautiful Carolina girls, Franklin Street, the classes (sort of) etc... I remained a huge Carolina hoops fan, of course, but my interests in Carolina expanded. It might have been different if I started at Carolina (or say Duke) and only then was introduced to the passion of Carolina (or say Duke) basketball and the joys of ACC basketball.

(2) I graduated in 1993, so I got to end my student experience with a championship. I don't really remember graduation, but I sure do remember the party on Franklin street and just about everything about that night and the next day. Ending it like that was perfect. As an alum, well, there's "always next year" (even when we win it, as in 2005), so it's never ending.

Finally, I never expected that I would still feel this crazy about Carolina and ACC hoops so many years later. I kept thinking busy job, marriage, kids, at some point I just will be too busy or be too grown-up to have the time to care. Instead, I just find myself caring even more and more, in part because the history that I can draw from just grows and grows - I've been watching ACC hoops for 30+ years now. It really is the beauty of ACC hoops and something other conference hoops fans just can't understand. I've given in and realize that I'll never "outgrow" this and am happy that I never will!

[brevity]

Was it easier/harder to deal with the ups and downs of Duke basketball as a student or is it harder now as an alum away from school?

This only seems like a difficult question. I'll make it simple.

Current students (and maybe anyone regularly on Duke's campus) feel higher highs and lower lows than do alumni who no longer live in Durham. Because they're RIGHT THERE. Imagine what it must be like to grumble about a recent loss, or a trend, or a recruiting setback in a campus eatery -- only to see a player walk right in. Unless you want to come across as a jerk, you can't speak your mind or vent your frustrations at that point, so your ability to deal with your emotions is limited.

By comparison, we out-of-town alumni have it easy. We can vent somewhat anonymously in bars or workplaces, among people with diverse regional interests. We can commiserate with, say, Wisconsin and Alabama fans. We have the license to be tactless, in person or online, and sometimes that gets us into trouble. But like, bulletin board or stern e-mail trouble, not real social alienation.

[throatybeard]

Great posts Tar-man and Rich.

For me there's no question, now is much easier than school. (Like Highlander, I was class of Wojo). I think I wept for an hour on the floor after UK beat us in 1998. When you're in very young adulthood, let's say puberty thru ugrad, EVERYTHING that EVER happens is so hugely SIGNIFICANT. That's the way it has to be--you're experiencing most of it for the first time. What hurts worse, a girl not liking you when you're 15, or a girl not liking you when you're 27? The former, of course. By 27, you expect girls not to like you.

In my experience, when you get to about, oh, age 25 or 26, you start to understand that how your school is doing in sports is of almost no importance in the grand scheme of things. You still care, but you get a lot more perspective. The only reason it's still important to me is that other fans treat you with more or less abuse depending on whether you won last night or not. And you want the coaches and players to succeed for their own sake. I don't care about RS losses in the least now, except to UNC. I've also "diversified my portfolio," in that I like NC State, Mississippi State, and West Virginia. But I don't follow sports nearly as closely as I did from ages 10 to 22 or so.

What I have no patience for at all now is "the rivalry." Someone bought me Art Chansky's book on the rivalry and I haven't even read it.

When you're 18, and you're in late, fiery adolescence, you have the energy for hating your rivals. Fortunately, you grow out of such idiocy in early adulthood. I don't hate Carolina. I don't hate Maryland. My life would be easier if they went away, yes, but who has the energy for hate and all these ridiculous formulations of self and other?

I was a cradle Dukie, but I was lucky (at least for sports) to grow up in Georgia mostly rather than North Carolina, so that there were a few nasty Tech fans at school, but mostly Duke was a non-issue to the UGA fans.

You grow out of certain things, fortunately. If you didn't you'd go crazy.

[Rich]

Grew up a Duke fan in NC, which was hard in the late 80s. UNC was the king of the Castle for sure, and although Duke had a nice run of Final Fours in that time, they never "brought home the bacon" as my middle school friends always chided me about. Even some of my teachers would give me grief (although I would occasionally give them some in return).

Highlander, is this you? :)

[bjornolf]

Wow, what a great picture. Where did you get that?

[Rich]

Someone posted it here last year or the year before, but I saved it because it's one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

[rthomas]

Someone posted it here last year or the year before, but I saved it because it's one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

My friend showed me one of those with a kid who had a Michigan shirt.

[CLT Devil]

I'd say it is about the same, all things considered.

The energy and buildup to a game while at Duke is great...there's an electricity in the air. I was there from 99-02 so we had one HECK of a run during my time. It was pretty depressin to los, but I had tons of folks to celebrate with when we did win.

Now, ic Charlotte at least, there are Tarholes everywhere that come out of the woodwork for these games when we lose. I get it from everyone, even though I don't really incite much. I sent out an email to my tarhole friends with funny pics of Paulus, as a way to preempt their obnoxiousness. After the game my future brother in law (who can't even name all 5 of their starters) made sure to send me the text of Hans jersey hanging in the rafters.

It's great to win while at Duke because everyone is so amped, and it especially hurts to lose after graduation because where Im at I am the lone Dukie for people to pick on.

Like the original poster said; there are bigger things to worry about once you're out of school, or at least more to worry about in your 'other', non-gameviewing time...a midterm has nothing on a mortgage. Oh.....to be in college again.

[77devil]

I can't imagine how the students who have been tenting for months must feel after a loss to UNC, particularly for some who have experienced it multiple times. The emotional letdown must be much more than we adult fans encounter.

I can't relate as a student since we had no expectatrions during the mid 1970's and losing was almost comical.

[loran16]

It really depends on when you were a student.

I'm a senior now, but I've been a fan since 99, when my brother came here. Since then he graduated in 02, My sister graduated in 05...and i'm due to graduate in may.

For me, as a student it's worse....I saw my Bro's team dominate, go to two title games, win a championship in 01. My sister got to see a Final Four at least in her four years.

My year hasn't even seen a win over the 'holes in Cameron. I still hold up hopes for a miracle this year, but despite having seen success in the past before i was a student, its the years that I've actually been at Duke that count the most. Those other teams were teams i rooted for, teams i wouldn't miss a game for, but these teams are MY teams. They're the teams of my years here, and their successes matter more to me than those other teams' successes and their failures hurt far more.

I was pissed off when JayWill ended his career and Duke's season with some poor free throws, but i was livid and breaking things in my dorm room sophomore year when we had an early loss to Marquette. Clearly it impacts me far more now then it did then, and i imagine the same will be true once i graduate...it won't matter as much. They'll be the team I root for, but they won't be MY teams.

[Highlander]

Highlander, is this you? :)

Ha! Not quite, but I can certainly identify with how that kid felt.

Nice. You made me snarf my gatorade.

[natedog4ever]

I was a student 91-95 and I remember being grumpy for several days after any Duke loss. I laugh at that now - you would be lucky if I could tell you who won the game several hours after it is over. It is just so much less important than all of the other things that occur in a semi-successful person's life. I hate it if that sounds a little condescending, but it's true.

I still live in NC. So every day I see people who try to equate their own personal success or failure with the fortunes of a college basketball team. They don't play for, coach, or even bring the water to that team.

Maybe I am less of a fan in my later years, but I just can't seem to get upset about the results of a college basketball game anymore.

[TobaMom]

As a class of '84 grad, success was a relative thing during my years at Duke -- recruiting Johnny D and watching him play was pure joy . . . adding Amaker and others to the mix gave us hope. In my post-Duke life there have been times of more and less intensity in my emotions around our basketball seasons, in large part depending on all of the things mentioned in previous posts (job, mortgage, babies. etc.)

Now that my son is 10-1/2 and a huge fan, the drama if we lose is at an all time high for him and requires more self control from me. We are fortunate to be flying to Durham next week to attend the game vs. FSU on 3/3 and I am praying hard that we win, because I cannot imagine watching Duke lose in Cameron after 25 years for me, and as a first Duke game for my son. (When he attended Coach K camp in 2007, it was pure heaven to watch him play on that floor, regardless of the outcome; this time, the outcome matters a lot more to me.) My husband and 12 year old daughter care, but not in that same crazed, "ruin your day if we lose" kind of way.

Even in Colorado, there is a fair amount of anti-Duke sentiment, but most people in my circle tread lightly when Duke loses.

[Billy Dat]

I was an undergrad from 1990 - 1994, two titles, 3 Final Fours.

Losses hurt MUCH more now.

Back then, I was spoiled by success. An undergrad's life is basically nothing but fun, or should be. Regular season losses blew, but so did taking tests and writing papers. Kegs and various other undergrad vices were more then enough to salve those hurts. Plus, we knew nothing but massive success. We assumed we'd make the Final Four and pretty much always did. Who cared about a regular season loss - we were headed for the promised land anyway.

Many years later, I realize how lucky we were - both in the freedom of undergrad life and the success of those same Blue Devil hoopers. Now in my 15th year of work (UGH!), Duke games literally get me through the winter. I am a far crazier fan then when I was 20 - I am a problem to be around when we lose, or look like we are going to lose. My wife says, "get a life, if you cared as much about anything as you care about that team you could win a nobel prize or at least make enough money to retire and devote yourself to them full time". Now there's an idea...but that would mean taking a hiatus and I really need to see if Scheyer can start hitting his 3s at a better percentage and Nolan can regain his confidence and so many other things.

It's worse as an alum - far worse!

[dukestheheat]

Rich,

We were in Cameron at about the same time, and to answer your question, it hurts when we lose. It bothered me when I was there, but it seems to bother me more nowadays and I can't really put a finger on why that is.

dukestheheat

[78Devil]

This is an easy call. Being an alum is much worse. When you are a student, you can go get drunk with your buddies afterwards, bemoan the loss and then go on and enjoy everything being a college kid has to offer. When you are an adult, you have to go to bed, get up for work (on the weekday games), and put up with the ribbing of everyone who "loves to hate Duke".

[Johnboy]

This is an easy call. Being an alum is much worse. When you are a student, you can go get drunk with your buddies afterwards, bemoan the loss and then go on and enjoy everything being a college kid has to offer. When you are an adult, you have to go to bed, get up for work (on the weekday games), and put up with the ribbing of everyone who "loves to hate Duke".

Not that I recommend it, but when you're an adult, you can go get drunk with your buddies afterward and bemoan the loss, but then you have to go to bed, get up for work (on the weekday games), and put up with the ribbing of everyone who "loves to hate Duke" AND a hangover.

You just can't do this every time, and it's not a very good idea regardless. Plus, if you have a spouse and children, it's an even worse idea.