Help Settle a Recruiting Argument

[Onlyduke]

Every year my son and I have a recruiting argument. I say Duke has a problem recruiting because of their academic standards. My son, on the other hand, says that is not a problem at all. He knew one of the Duke BB players some years ago .... who was not one of the brightest bulbs in the pack. This particular player, who will remain nameless, left the program early and never graduated. Who's right?

[roywhite]

As far as recruiting and Duke's academic standards, I'm not sure there is a hard and fast answer. Some important points:

1. Yes, there are a number of highly ranked basketball prospects who do not have the academic profile to be considered for Duke
2. Recruits are considered on an individual basis, and sometimes there are exceptions, or a prospect admitted who has a significantly lower profile of test scores and grades, but that the coaches and admissions people feel can do the academic work at Duke. My observation is that there may be 1 per class in this category.
3. For some recruits, Duke's academic status represents an advantage. For example, Shane Battier, Brian Zoubek, and many others were more likely to choose Duke because of academics, not less likely.

Just my observations.

[Kedsy]

Every year my son and I have a recruiting argument. I say Duke has a problem recruiting because of their academic standards. My son, on the other hand, says that is not a problem at all. He knew one of the Duke BB players some years ago .... who was not one of the brightest bulbs in the pack. This particular player, who will remain nameless, left the program early and never graduated. Who's right?

I'd question the premise. I don't think Duke has a recruiting problem.

Putting that aside, I'm pretty sure the basketball team has freedom to recruit kids who would not necessarily meet the academic requirements for the student body at large. Having said that, the university still has high academic standards for athletes, and any school with high academic standards has a smaller pool to pick from. There are certain great players who Duke can't consider. But since there are so few players on the team (compared to, say, football), it is very possible to find enough great players who meet our standards. And in many cases, if we'd been able to recruit the kid who didn't meet our standards we wouldn't have gotten another kid who was just as good. I think it's a non-issue.

[gotham devil]

Every year my son and I have a recruiting argument. I say Duke has a problem recruiting because of their academic standards. My son, on the other hand, says that is not a problem at all. He knew one of the Duke BB players some years ago .... who was not one of the brightest bulbs in the pack. This particular player, who will remain nameless, left the program early and never graduated. Who's right?
I'll assume you are not here simply to flame.

If "Program A" can theoretically recruit every single kid on a list of a consensus top 100 list and "Program D" can't accept kids who simply meet the current bare minimum requirements of the NCAA, it will naturally create a smaller available talent pool from which to draw for Program D.

As for this alleged individual player, even with all of the academic resources (tutoring) and advantage in class scheduling, it's naturally going to be difficult for the average basketball player to compete in the classroom with students that finished at the top of their respective HS class and had a substantially higher SAT threshold from which to cross.

[sagegrouse]

Yes, Duke is restricted in the number of highly rated recruits it can pursue by virtue of its academic criteria.

Fortunately, good students (and their families) place a value on the Duke education that helps sign those recruits that qualify.

sagegrouse

[Gordon Shumway]

Personally, I view Duke's academic prestige and selectivity as a major advantage, rather than a hindrance.

There seems to be an idea quite pervasive throughout sports that being cerebral or book smart is a hindrance to playing the game. That analytical or thoughtful play is inferior and an obstacle to instinctive play. That time spent with your nose in a book is time spent away from practicing your jumper or lifting weights. Perhaps I'm reading between the lines incorrectly, but there seems to be a lot of jock/nerd contempt where kids with academic talent/interest are seen as not being manly or macho enough. However, one point made by Dan Wetzel in a NY Times article linked here yesterday is that many of the top HS basketball prospects are actually very bright people. He listed Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, and our own Shane Batter as examples.

Jumbo, Olympic Fan, et. al. probably can contribute much more here than myself, but there seems to me to be a very strong correlation between academic success/interest in high school and college and success in one's basketball career. In addition to the names listed above, I would add Tim Duncan, Antawn Jamison, Vince Carter, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, Corey Maggette, Luol Deng, Greg Oden, and Chris Bosh as examples off the top of my head who were well known to have excellent academic credentials in high school/college who later starred in the pros. The number of NBA stars with marginal academic credentials are a lot lower: Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett, Amare Stoudamire, Dwayne Wade, Allen Iverson, Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis...I'm sure there are a lot more names that can be added here but frankly I'd take the first team over the second in a heartbeat in a seven game series.

I don't know if it's because the intellectual ability that helps you succeed in a classroom can help you succeed on the court. Or perhaps it's because the discipline to get good grades and good test scores also help you avoid the temptations of a celebrity lifestyle. Nonetheless, the anecdotal evidence seem seem to show that intellectual talent and academic ability are a great indicator of future success.

[Houston]

Although Duke recruits from a smaller pool of student/athletes than most schools, I do not think the academic bar is too high. When Duke was going to the final four every year and winning back-to-back naional championships, academics was not an issue. Duke and Carolina recruit many of the same players, and the heels are doing well.

Duke has been hurt by key recruits going to other schools and some recruits not developing as many had hoped.

[JimBD]

I think that Duke has a hugh recruiting disadvantage because of academics, which is somewhat offset by the remarkable reputation and abilities of Coach K. I would guess that there are a few prospects who come to Duke because they value Duke's academic reputation as much as its basketball reputation. But I also believe there are a far greater number of great basketball prospects that Duke can't even consider because of academics, or that won't consider Duke because they only want to concentrate on basketball and not have to go through the rigors of a strong academic program. I am afraid that Duke fans will see how hugh this recruiting disadvantage is once Coach K reitres. Just my opinion.

[Faison1]

Well, let's see.....the biggest recruiting battles we have lost recently have been to schools like Florida, Kentucky, UNC, Georgetown, U of Washington, Rutgers, Oklahoma, just to name a few.....

So, we are obviously after the same kids. These days, I think the players understand that they need to do well in the classroom to get all the looks they want, especially since the NBA path goes through college.

I really can't think of too many kids on UNC's roster who seem obviously dumb. For every rumor you hear about Lawson not liking class, you heard the same about Will Avery and others. I'm not saying the rumors were true, but the type of player that Duke wants fits in well at UNC and vice versa.....

[FireOgilvie]

Someone mentioned this, but I think the major difference is the difficulty of the classes and level of competition at Duke versus many other schools. I have friends that go to state schools that talk about certain majors that are filled with athletes... things like "Organizational Leadership Skills." Yes, that is an actual major at a state school that is very competitive in basketball. There are definitely "easy" majors at Duke, but they are all 50 times more difficult than some of the things I have heard about.

[brevity]

If "Program A" can theoretically recruit every single kid on a list of a consensus top 100 list and "Program D" can't accept kids who simply meet the current bare minimum requirements of the NCAA, it will naturally create a smaller available talent pool from which to draw for Program D.

Good illustration of the fundamental distinction between Duke recruiting and what we could call "open recruiting."

On its face, sure, Duke's recruiting is restrictive. But to open the floodgates and accept all highly-coveted talents, regardless of how they fit onto the team or in the school, doesn't mean a successful program either.

The important thing to remember is that Duke's coaching staff respects the university's academic standards and has been remarkably successful in finding good players that meet the restrictive criteria (as well as the notable exceptions who also turned out to be good student-athletes).

I'm sure Coach K has faced the occasional conflict with Duke admissions in his career. How could he not? But he's managed that particular aspect of recruiting just fine. And I feel confident his successor will approach similar success, or at least not regress in that department.

Finally, consider the alternative. We can't forget the black eye a certain final exam (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ugatest1.html) gave the University of Georgia. While that's an extreme example, I certainly wouldn't want anything to happen to Duke basketball that creates a negative academic reputation.

[eddiehaskell]

I heard something about Duke fans teasing J.R. Reid by chanting "J.R. can't Read" and it upset Dean Smith. In response, Dean said something like "I recruited both Christian Laettner [or was it Ferry?] and JR Reid and JR had higher SAT scores."

Does anyone know about this? I was pretty young then so I don't remember it.

[gvtucker]

I heard something about Duke fans teasing J.R. Reid by chanting "J.R. can't Read" and it upset Dean Smith. In response, Dean said something like "I recruited both Christian Laettner [or was it Ferry?] and JR Reid and JR had higher SAT scores."

Does anyone know about this? I was pretty young then so I don't remember it.

Not quite accurate. Dean Smith stated that Reid and Scott Williams had higher combined SAT scores than Laettner and Danny Ferry.

[dukemsu]

Not quite accurate. Dean Smith stated that Reid and Scott Williams had higher combined SAT scores than Laettner and Danny Ferry.

Great example of El Deano letting the Crazies get under his skin. Completely out of line for a coach to talk about any players' test scores in the media. Still can't believe he wasn't barbecued for that one. Completely and totally classless for a coach of his reputation.

dukemsu

[darkblue2769]

Just a fun fact to interject about basketball players academics:

JJ Redick came to Duke and graduated as a History major, minoring in Cultural Anthropology. Tyler Hansbrough went to UNC and majors in Communications. According to my sister at UNC, he, ahem, has some difficulty completing his own work, frequently soliciting help from whoever happens to be sitting near him.

I'd say Duke's academic standards, though they rarely prevent anybody from going to Duke for basketball, do make a difference in who will choose Duke. Some players (Sean Dockery is one who jumps to mind) have to work harder to maintain the academic standard that Duke itself requires, but generally they are still able to come here if they so choose. To sum that up, Duke athletes don't have to be smart enough to be admitted to Duke like an average student, but they have to be smart enough to go to Duke and complete the work. This eliminates some, but not nearly enough to make a recruiting difference.

Frankly, if a player is unwilling to put in an effort academically, I'd rather them not come to Duke. Luckily, this is rarely an issue.

[kexman]

From rivals.com. In another thread I stated that rankings don't mean much since dejaun blair was ranked in the #50's. Just was curious to look at Duke versus UNC and how they have turned out. UNC was very successful in 2005 and 2006 and sadly they didn't turn pro:). 2007 and 2008 looks kind of bare? Our senior class has been sort of a bust with 2 transfers and McRoberts leaving early. Paulus is the only one of a 5 person class that plays meaningful minutes. Our jr class all plays meaningful minutes for us. It would have been interesting to see McRoberts and Singler on the same court. They both possessed great skills for big men with their passing and shooting...both could play on the perimeter which would have been interesting to watch.


2005
UNC Duke
10 hansbrough 2 josh mcroberts
31 danny green 11 Paulus
38 ginyard 40 Pocius
51 bobby frasor 82 boateng
108 boykin

2006
3 brandan wright 11 Henderson
8 ellington 24 zoubek
9 tywon lawson 42 lance thomas
41 elex stepheson 71 scheyer
72 deon thompson
105 william graves

2007
none??? 5 kyle singler
this class was super 37 taylor king
loaded though most are 39 nolan smith
already in NBA

2008
15 ed davis 16 elliot williams
33 tyler zeller 101 miles plumlee
71 larry drew 112 olek czyz

2009 (not yet completed)
6 john henson 20 ryan kelly
17 dexter strickland 42 mason plumlee
55 leslie mcdonald
68 david wear
69 travis wear