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throatybeard
02-15-2009, 07:35 PM
Keep it civil.

GoingFor#5
02-15-2009, 07:36 PM
This team frustrates me. I feel like we have a lot of talent and should play like we did in the first half against UNC more often. I can't get my finger on it, but a few things I'd like to see are:

- Less 3s from Scheyer, more drive and dishes
- More drives from Singler
- Less jumpers from G

Come to think of it, its the same ol' story, we just need to shoot less 3s and attack more.

YmoBeThere
02-15-2009, 07:38 PM
We need more cowbell!

Devilsfan
02-15-2009, 07:38 PM
There's nothing to be ashamed of or mad about. For the second game in a row the team with the better guard won.

Duvall
02-15-2009, 07:38 PM
Offense isn't the problem. Giving up 80 points to BC - BC! - is the problem.

loran16
02-15-2009, 07:39 PM
There is something wrong with this team.

Shoutout here to Mr. Thomas, btw. He fouled out, yes, but I actually liked that he did....aggressive good play for most of the game is better than passive play that he usually exhibits. Definitely player of the game.

However, my god, what has happened to our defense, especially in 2nd halves. A large part of this I'd guess has to do with Nolan's fall over the last few games. He's essential to this team right now....Paulus is great as a leader and I don't mind paulus starting, but nolan has to be a solid bench option. And he's simply not right now. Looks slow, not much of an offensive threat, making stupid plays.

If Nolan plays this way, we're probably the same or worse than last year. Which is a good team...but not what we expect from Duke BBall.

devildownunder
02-15-2009, 07:39 PM
This season has taken on a real "where do we go from here" look, and not just for the rest of this year. No, the program is not falling apart but I think that what happens on the court the rest of this year, and off the court in the coming off-season, is critical to Duke's status as a consistent top 5, top 10 program. We need some success in the post-season and in recruiting and player development and we need them quickly, or else we're all going to have to get used to the idea that lower expectations are realistic expectations for the next handful of years.

chrisheery
02-15-2009, 07:39 PM
I thought we played well for most of the game, but we still lost. I guess the only area where we were bad was defending. That sucks because it used to be our calling card.

roywhite
02-15-2009, 07:39 PM
Well, that hurt.

My initial impressions are how well BC shot and, unfortunately, how little Nolan Smith contributed. BC got offense from more players, including their young guys and bench guys.

Huh?
02-15-2009, 07:39 PM
BC , 58.8% shooting. Was our D that bad?

Oriole Way
02-15-2009, 07:39 PM
The wheels are falling off again. This was a tough game because we have no answer for a PG like Rice.

It's pretty disheartening to see all these conference streaks (Clemson, BC) come to an end with a team that's better (in theory) and more experienced than the past couple seasons.

We can't beat good teams with Paulus at the point. He turned the ball over twice making simple passes, and got burned every time he "guarded" Rice. He was outrebounded twice on one defensive posession which lead to BC free throws. He has to come off the bench in a limited offensive role.

I'd rather have Smith go 0-5 from the field and play passable defense than Paulus continue to man the point.

VaDukie
02-15-2009, 07:40 PM
I really have no idea what to say about this team. We should keep in mind that Clemson just lost to UVA, Wake lost to Georgia Tech, Va Tech lost to Maryland etc. The ACC is just brutal this year, and except for the guys in light blue down the road there's really not any separation.

bfree
02-15-2009, 07:40 PM
The most frustrating thing for me was the defensive trap at the end of the game. It was great at first, really fantastic. Then BC started to figure it out. Then they broke it. It only took about three possessions, but once BC figured it out, there was no way to keep at it especially in the key final possession after G's miss. That's on K in my opinion.

quickgtp
02-15-2009, 07:40 PM
I need a beer after that game. Was anyone else screaming "no no no" at their TV when Kyle rotated away from Rice and then took that monster 3?

BlueintheFace
02-15-2009, 07:40 PM
Lost the game in the last 2 minutes of the first half...

Officiating was pretty poor for about 5 minutes there (and i rarely ever comment on such things)

...We are now pretty much a mediocre ACC team! (but only when you look at conference records, season statistics, quality of opponents, quality wins, personnel, and a few other items that nobody cares about except the NCAA selection committee)

DukeVol
02-15-2009, 07:40 PM
I'm so tired of watching Duke teams fade going into March.....4 out of our last 6 games as losses...ughhh.....

I also think the ACC should start fining schools when their fans rush the court. It is only a matter of time before something really bad happens. I think a $10,000 fine on the school might slow things down a bit....why take the risk of a serious incident?

doctorhook
02-15-2009, 07:40 PM
In deference to Jim S, I won't use the term "go to guy", but we just don't have guys who can score when we need it. G and Kyle can create their own offense when needed, but no one else seems to, and that just increases the pressure on G and Kyle. Doc

flyingdutchdevil
02-15-2009, 07:40 PM
For the record, I am currently out of the country and was not able to see the game. That said, I followed it online.

One thing that I noticed was how high BC shot the ball (59%). We were a great defensive team for the most part of the season, but opponents have shot very well against us recently (notably Clemson, UNC and BC). What is going on? Are we tired? Is Greg Paulus at the point not working out as well as we'd like? Our defense has been our staple this season, and we simply can't afford to lose that.

Any comments?

77devil
02-15-2009, 07:41 PM
Offense isn't the problem. Giving up 80 points to BC - BC! - is the problem.

I suggest that both are a problem

DBFAN
02-15-2009, 07:41 PM
Two games in a row they have leads, and then the second half comes and they just start throwing the ball away. The future for this team does not look well, and with the majority of the games left being on the road making the Tournament may be an accomplishment for this team

dukebsbll14
02-15-2009, 07:41 PM
Since MD game, 2-4. In only one of those games did we play 40 min of good basketball (in my opinion.) We did play Wake, Clem, and UNC in a span of 5 games. Is Duke starting to become fatigued as we did last season? Or have we just run into some very good teams?

Discuss.


GO DUKE!!!!!

(sorry if this sounds pessimistic, but I just wanted to throw it out there)

eddiehaskell
02-15-2009, 07:42 PM
Like clockwork the season meltdown happens again. We could easily finish the season with 9 or 10 loses. A loss in the first or second round of the season is starting to look like a likely possibility. Oh well.

BlueintheFace
02-15-2009, 07:42 PM
We can't beat good teams with Paulus at the point. He turned the ball over twice making simple passes, and got burned every time he "guarded" Rice. He was outrebounded twice on one defensive posession which lead to BC free throws. He has to come off the bench in a limited offensive role.

I'd rather have Smith go 0-5 from the field and play passable defense than Paulus continue to man the point.

Nominated: most inaccurate characterization of the game in this thread

geraldsneighbor
02-15-2009, 07:42 PM
We made Trapani look like Joe Alexander tonight. It was pathetic.

Our inability to get stops when we need them to was again shown tonight. Very depressing loss, and I'm starting to feel like this team in underachieving. We need more out of Scheyer, and I'm not sure why Paulus wouldn't pull the trigger at all tonight. Nolan is brutal offensively. I'm just getting so frustrated with a team that should be better then last year not having the toughness to win road games.

COYS
02-15-2009, 07:42 PM
This team frustrates me. I feel like we have a lot of talent and should play like we did in the first half against UNC more often. I can't get my finger on it, but a few things I'd like to see are:

- Less 3s from Scheyer, more drive and dishes
- More drives from Singler
- Less jumpers from G

Come to think of it, its the same ol' story, we just need to shoot less 3s and attack more.

I think it's less about the number of threes we take than it is about the timing of some of them. We need to make sure they are in the flow of the offense. Some of them were, today, and some of them weren't. The bottom line is that no team, not just Duke, can win consistently when they shoot under 20% from three. We talk about Lawson beating us in the UNC game (and, in fact, he did play one of his best halves ever) but if Frasor and Hansbrough miss their four threes instead of making them, it's a completely different game. Bottom line, we've got to shoot better from distance.

dukebb444
02-15-2009, 07:43 PM
This team frustrates me. I feel like we have a lot of talent and should play like we did in the first half against UNC more often. I can't get my finger on it, but a few things I'd like to see are:

- Less 3s from Scheyer, more drive and dishes
- More drives from Singler
- Less jumpers from G

Come to think of it, its the same ol' story, we just need to shoot less 3s and attack more.

Well said! It is just frustrating that we have no one that we can throw it to in the post. I mean it's like perimeter pass, perimeter pass, three point shot..... we are just a perimeter oriented team, and we must accept that, I guess? I don't like the fact that Nolan isn't starting, i think, for us to make a run in March he must start. I also don't understand why we can't get some minutes for Plumlee and Williams, I mean what we have been doing over the last 5 to 6 games don't seem to be working. I am confused!:confused:

Hancock 4 Duke
02-15-2009, 07:43 PM
You can't say Duke didn't do they're best. It's just that they were out smarted by BC. I think this is a game we should've won, but it WAS possble that we would lose.

Ders24
02-15-2009, 07:44 PM
Two games in a row they have leads, and then the second half comes and they just start throwing the ball away. The future for this team does not look well, and with the majority of the games left being on the road making the Tournament may be an accomplishment for this team

OK come on, yes we lost, yes we've lost whatever out of the last 6, 7 games. But making the tournament? Really? We'd have to see a monster collapse for that to happen. People say it all the time but can we not act as if the world is ending?

calltheobvious
02-15-2009, 07:44 PM
The most frustrating thing for me was the defensive trap at the end of the game. It was great at first, really fantastic. Then BC started to figure it out. Then they broke it. It only took about three possessions, but once BC figured it out, there was no way to keep at it especially in the key final possession after G's miss. That's on K in my opinion.

I don't think BC 'figured it out.' On the possession after we took the lead, Scheyer just forgot about Rice. I know the shot he made was deep, but it was a wide open look. I simply don't understand how you can forget about the best player on the court. When that shot went through, I knew it was over.

I simply don't understand.

quickgtp
02-15-2009, 07:44 PM
It seems like it has been said already but I will follow up:

1) We cannot win against teams like BC, Clemson, or UNC with Paulus playing a majority of the minutes at the point.

2) K needs to realize that he needs to switch things up. It's obvious that this offensive scheme isn't working out too well lately.

3) We cannot have Kyle playing out there as the only "post presence." It simply isn't effective.

Wow, maybe I need to gather my thoughts before I continue!

miramar
02-15-2009, 07:44 PM
Duke finished 4-8 in 2007 and 6-5 last year. This year Duke is 2-4 and counting.

While BC shot over 50% and over 40% for threes, Duke shot 42.6% and 18.8%. Singler shot 3/6 from three point range, while the rest of the team shot 0/13 (Scheyer 0/6).

At this point I am mystified.

geraldsneighbor
02-15-2009, 07:44 PM
You can't say Duke didn't do they're best. It's just that they were out smarted by BC. I think this is a game we should've won, but it WAS possble that we would lose.

I'm sorry but I can't be satisfied with losses to middle tier ACC teams in a game that was a must-win.

karmacoma
02-15-2009, 07:45 PM
Time to face some hard truths. Our guys play hard and are exemplary student athletes, but we're simply not among the elite teams this year, and we haven't been for several years now. The lack of an interior defensive stopper has been a real shortcoming since the Landlord left, and we don't have the premiere point guard needed to ignite things on the offensive end and prevent 5-7 minute scoring droughts. I will cheer like heck for this team until the last buzzer sounds at the end of the last game, but I'm afraid the absence of top talent at the 1 and at the 5 points to another early exit in March.

Vincetaylor
02-15-2009, 07:46 PM
The defense was terrible in the 2nd half. BC shot 58.8% for the game. You are not going to win any games on the road allowing that type of shooting. Duke is in serious danger of having a really bad seed for the tourney when you consider the schedule that they have left. At least a few more losses is inevitable. I would be happy with a 4 seed at this point, but I fear it will end up being worse.

Oriole Way
02-15-2009, 07:46 PM
For the record, I am currently out of the country and was not able to see the game. That said, I followed it online.

One thing that I noticed was how high BC shot the ball (59%). We were a great defensive team for the most part of the season, but opponents have shot very well against us recently (notably Clemson, UNC and BC). What is going on? Are we tired? Is Greg Paulus at the point not working out as well as we'd like? Our defense has been our staple this season, and we simply can't afford to lose that.

Any comments?

I think the correct answer is that ACC teams are far better than the rest of the country, with exception of the Big East. We padded our defensive stats against much weaker teams, and now we are facing far more talented opponents.

We haven't really beaten a great team, especially on the road. I thought our win against Georgetown was a great win, but they have fallen apart almost as badly as we have. Purdue and Xavier were very overrated at the time we played them.

House G
02-15-2009, 07:46 PM
There's nothing to be ashamed of or mad about. For the second game in a row the team with the better guard won.
It has been said many times before--we are vulnerable to teams with great point guards. Both NC and BC killed us with dribble penetration. By contrast, we have been lacking this weapon for some time.

Devilsfan
02-15-2009, 07:46 PM
We should have put this game away in the first half. We just don't have a killer instinct and in the clutch we don't have anyone who will step up and MAKE plays. We do have players who want the ball at the end to their credit. We just don't have the super stars of the past who will put daggers in opponents hearts (JWill, JJ).

Les Grossman
02-15-2009, 07:47 PM
I only saw the last 10 min of the game (picked up at 7p by Comcast in my area), but our D didn't look that great. Letting Rice shoot that 3 with about 1:30 left was killer. Big guy down low wasn't guarded much, either.:confused:

SupaDave
02-15-2009, 07:47 PM
I'm so tired of watching Duke teams fade going into March.....4 out of our last 6 games as losses...ughhh.....


How long have you been following the team?

feldspar
02-15-2009, 07:48 PM
I had no desire to watch this game. I guess I'm glad I didn't.

geraldsneighbor
02-15-2009, 07:48 PM
I'd love to hear everyones solution for the point. Smith is playing his worst basketball since coming to Duke, and everyone wants to hand him his job back for doing nothing. This team mine as well just ride out the year with Paulus and try again with Nolan next year.

eddiehaskell
02-15-2009, 07:48 PM
OK come on, yes we lost, yes we've lost whatever out of the last 6, 7 games. But making the tournament? Really? We'd have to see a monster collapse for that to happen. People say it all the time but can we not act as if the world is ending?We'll make it, but at what seed? 5 or 6? That means we'll have to play good teams all the way. :(

I starting to wonder who this team can match up against. If a team has a really PG, we have no one that can stop them. If the other team is good inside, we are thin there. :o

godukecom
02-15-2009, 07:49 PM
I dont understand how it is possible, but this team has regressed from where they were last year. I dont understand it, but it is what it is.

SupaDave
02-15-2009, 07:49 PM
If Virgina can beat Clemson today I think you all should realize that this year's ACC is no joke.

This is the same BC team that beat UNC at home - they are no fluke.

Duvall
02-15-2009, 07:49 PM
I had no desire to watch this game. I guess I'm glad I didn't.

Thanks for sharing.

SupaDave
02-15-2009, 07:50 PM
I had no desire to watch this game. I guess I'm glad I didn't.

But you wanted to come here and moan? Explain...

OldSchool
02-15-2009, 07:50 PM
We can't beat good teams with Paulus at the point. He turned the ball over twice making simple passes, and got burned every time he "guarded" Rice. He was outrebounded twice on one defensive posession which lead to BC free throws. He has to come off the bench in a limited offensive role.

I'd rather have Smith go 0-5 from the field and play passable defense than Paulus continue to man the point.

Nolan was no better than Greg on D and in fact Greg played pretty well against Rice in the first half.

What killed was not Rice, who did what he does but did not have a dominating game. It was Jackson and Sanders EACH going 6 for 8 from the field that killed us, with some defensive lapses on Trapani.

GoingFor#5
02-15-2009, 07:51 PM
Time to face some hard truths. Our guys play hard and are exemplary student athletes, but we're simply not among the elite teams this year, and we haven't been for several years now. The lack of an interior defensive stopper has been a real shortcoming since the Landlord left, and we don't have the premiere point guard needed to ignite things on the offensive end and prevent 5-7 minute scoring droughts. I will cheer like heck for this team until the last buzzer sounds at the end of the last game, but I'm afraid the absence of top talent at the 1 and at the 5 points to another early exit in March.

We're not one of the best teams, but we are better than the last few seasons and we have a very good shot at making a run. I think when we are on top of our game, we cannot be beat.

SupaDave
02-15-2009, 07:51 PM
I dont understand how it is possible, but this team has regressed from where they were last year. I dont understand it, but it is what it is.

I wouldn't say regressed but something is definitely not clicking. Jon's miss in the corner when the shot was crucial was key to me in our ability to 'shock' BC. He misses that shot and they convert on the other end and it's a different game.

CAT Blue Devil
02-15-2009, 07:51 PM
Time to face some hard truths. Our guys play hard and are exemplary student athletes, but we're simply not among the elite teams this year, and we haven't been for several years now. The lack of an interior defensive stopper has been a real shortcoming since the Landlord left, and we don't have the premiere point guard needed to ignite things on the offensive end and prevent 5-7 minute scoring droughts. I will cheer like heck for this team until the last buzzer sounds at the end of the last game, but I'm afraid the absence of top talent at the 1 and at the 5 points to another early exit in March.

I am starting to sense a trend with Duke's tendency to switch on defense; it just leads teams to continue to move the ball around the perimeter until they get the matchup they want. It seemed several times that BC's wings got a step on a switching defender and it was just the seam the needed. The absence of the 1 and the 5 to dominate their positions defensively further exposes this situation.

concrete
02-15-2009, 07:52 PM
we should play our freshmen . Plumlee and Elliot need minutes, especially Plumlee there's no reason to throw a 6'6 player to play center when you have a capable 6'10 player on the bench.

SMO
02-15-2009, 07:53 PM
It is very very very very hard to admit this but I'm beginning to think the way Duke plays defense early in the season burns the team out by the end of Feb.

That being said, if BC doesn't shoot lights-out tonight Duke wins. If the refs don't completely change the way they call the game in the 2nd half...who knows what happens. That was just weird and inexcusable in my mind (and hopefully the ACC's too).

DukeVol
02-15-2009, 07:53 PM
As much as I HATE to see us lose, some of the ridiculous shots they hit had nothing to do with our defense. In most games, you have big "momentum" shots at certain moments of the game. In this game, it felt like BC hit every single one. We had chances to hit daggers, but we missed every opportunity. BC just does not shoot like that against everyone....regardless of the defense.

Now I need to go find my two dogs who are probably hiding under the bed due to my prolific use of loud curse words.....

SupaDave
02-15-2009, 07:54 PM
Nolan nor Paulus can defend 30 foot 3 pointers. Give BC some credit for a great game.

Oriole Way
02-15-2009, 07:54 PM
Nolan was no better than Greg on D and in fact Greg played pretty well against Rice in the first half.

What killed was not Rice, who did what he does but did not have a dominating game. It was Jackson and Sanders EACH going 6 for 8 from the field that killed us, with some defensive lapses on Trapani.

There were three possessions, right around the same time in the second, when Paulus directly cost his team 6 points. Two drives, and letting his man outrebound him twice, then fouling him.

The reason it seemed like Paulus did well on Rice in the first half was because Rice wasn't looking for his shot until the second. Paulus also made two inexcusable turnovers late in the second. He almost single-handedly cost Duke 10 points on five plays.

quickgtp
02-15-2009, 07:54 PM
can someone please tell me why my "acc record prediction" post keeps getting moved into this thread? it has nothing to do with today's games. mods?

GoingFor#5
02-15-2009, 07:54 PM
I don't think there really is any way to sugar-coat this loss.

Um, it was a narrow loss to a an ACC team that has already defeated UNC. I am starting to take the regular season for what it is, I mean it's not like we won national championships all those years we were dominating the regular season.

pamtar
02-15-2009, 07:54 PM
Nominated: most inaccurate characterization of the game in this thread

Agreed.

I'm getting really tired of player haters (god i hate to use that term but it fits so good) in chat and on the boards. EVERY player on this team makes mistakes. As do the coaches. That's life. In fact, I don't think there is another player on this squad that I respect more than Paulus. Maybe LT, but he hasn't had the abuse GP has.

Thumper's mom would kick arse right now.

BlueintheFace
02-15-2009, 07:55 PM
I have never really believed this, but I am slowly beginning to come around on the issue. So, (making a sour face) here it goes:

Perhaps K's philosophy of ALWAYS putting the best 5 out on the floor in the beginning of the season is not always the best one. What would this team look like if Plumlee had been thrown in to the fire from the get go? The best way to learn is to make mistakes in games and learn from those mistakes. Would we be a better team now?

I don't know, but I was so sure we wouldn't slide this year and now...

The counter argument, of course, is Nolan Smith. We really threw him into the fire and told him to learn on the job, but he has not progressed (offensively at least).

I think we just need to go back to that defensive lineup of LT, Singler, G, Scheyer and Nolan (with McClure, Paulus, and some Z off the bench) Run those 5 into the ground for the rest of the season and see how far our defense can really take us.

The offense looked very good with some new motion elements in place. I really liked the clear-outs for G with Jon spotting up in the corner when help d come over.

Finaly, Great job Lance. You were awesome today and some of those fouls were very questionable.

eddiehaskell
02-15-2009, 07:55 PM
If Virgina can beat Clemson today I think you all should realize that this year's ACC is no joke.

This is the same BC team that beat UNC at home - they are no fluke.We can say BC is good, but we MUST beat good teams!!! Right now we are a mid-pack ACC team. It took OT to beat Miami, so we could very well be 1-5 in our last 6 games. Not a good sign coming down the stretch (when you want to be playing your best).

arnie
02-15-2009, 07:55 PM
Nominated: most inaccurate characterization of the game in this thread

And I thought it was a fairly accurate summary. Greg played very poorly, I just don't see a way to flower it up.

CAT Blue Devil
02-15-2009, 07:55 PM
As much as I HATE to see us lose, some of the ridiculous shots they hit had nothing to do with our defense. In most games, you have big "momentum" shots at certain moments of the game. In this game, it felt like BC hit every single one. We had chances to hit daggers, but we missed every opportunity. BC just does not shoot like that against everyone....regardless of the defense.

Now I need to go find my two dogs who are probably hiding under the bed due to my prolific use of loud curse words.....

Rice's three aside. I saw a lot of back doors, runners in the lane, and several alley-oop's. If not for multiple charges, there would have been many more.

bulldog44
02-15-2009, 07:56 PM
We should have put this game away in the first half. We just don't have a killer instinct and in the clutch we don't have anyone who will step up and MAKE plays. We do have players who want the ball at the end to their credit. We just don't have the super stars of the past who will put daggers in opponents hearts (JWill, JJ).

That is what I see. A lack of heart as a team. I want to see somebody actually get angry, not in a fighting way but a HELL NO way. I want to see the desire from one if not all of our players to go Bobby Hurley on the other team. To view every positive for the other team as a personal insult to them. Thomas seems to be the closest to having this. Zoubek had a pass don low where he was wide open, why he didn't even try to slam it is beyond me, instead he gently tried to lay it in, it came off and he was able to finger tap it back in. I want to see him go up hard and if he gets fouled so be it. Henderson has the desire it seems but it seems like since the rest of the team is in a ho-hum mode he doesn't get that fire in his eyes.

Duvall
02-15-2009, 07:56 PM
we should play our freshmen . Plumlee and Elliot need minutes, especially Plumlee there's no reason to throw a 6'6 player to play center when you have a capable 6'10 player on the bench.

What's his name?

SupaDave
02-15-2009, 07:56 PM
Um, it was a narrow loss to a an ACC team that has already defeated UNC. I am starting to take the regular season for what it is, I mean it's not like we won national championships all those years we were dominating the regular season.

Exactly.

roywhite
02-15-2009, 07:56 PM
I'd love to hear everyones solution for the point. Smith is playing his worst basketball since coming to Duke, and everyone wants to hand him his job back for doing nothing. This team mine as well just ride out the year with Paulus and try again with Nolan next year.

Agree. Greg's defensive shortcomings are well known; in fact, teams now seem to attack him regularly in key situations. But he has played better than Nolan.

Not shooting well, and not defending well at the point or at the rim.

Oriole Way
02-15-2009, 07:57 PM
I'd love to hear everyones solution for the point. Smith is playing his worst basketball since coming to Duke, and everyone wants to hand him his job back for doing nothing. This team mine as well just ride out the year with Paulus and try again with Nolan next year.

Once again I would like to see Jon Scheyer slide over to PG. Elliot Williams should start against St. John's, if anything to shake things up and give him a chance to earn more PT. Neither Paulus nor Smith deserve to start with the way they've played.

DUKIECB
02-15-2009, 07:58 PM
For me the most disappointing thing about the team right now is that I think we are underachieving. A lot of Duke teams far exceed what most think they are capable of, but it seems to me that this team is capable of playing better basketball than they currently are. Just my .02 cents.

geraldsneighbor
02-15-2009, 08:00 PM
Once again I would like to see Jon Scheyer slide over to PG. Elliot Williams should start against St. John's, if anything to shake things up and give him a chance to earn more PT. Neither Paulus nor Smith deserve to start with the way they've played.

What have you seen of EW to want to start him? I can't figure this team out but our defense is just awful. We let up late in the first half, let Rice get confidence, and then followed that up with a barrage of fouls.

eddiehaskell
02-15-2009, 08:00 PM
Um, it was a narrow loss to a an ACC team that has already defeated UNC. I am starting to take the regular season for what it is, I mean it's not like we won national championships all those years we were dominating the regular season.It's not just this loss. It's nearly being 1-5 in the last 6 games and the possibility of finishing the season 4-8.

DukeWarhead
02-15-2009, 08:01 PM
Next weeks game against WF is basically Duke's season. (I realize I am overlooking St. John's - but I am confident in that one.)

For the team's psyche - they really need to beat WF. Otherwise, the crisis of confidence will just breed into the ACC tourney and beyond and we will see the same end result that we've seen the last two seasons and everyone will be pulling their hair out once again....

I think against WF we will see if this team is truly different from the previous two, or just the most recent version. I'm really hoping they can get over the hump and get some momentum.

Go Duke. Hang in there. Take a deep breath and drive on.

Duke76
02-15-2009, 08:02 PM
Time to face some hard truths. Our guys play hard and are exemplary student athletes, but we're simply not among the elite teams this year, and we haven't been for several years now. The lack of an interior defensive stopper has been a real shortcoming since the Landlord left, and we don't have the premiere point guard needed to ignite things on the offensive end and prevent 5-7 minute scoring droughts. I will cheer like heck for this team until the last buzzer sounds at the end of the last game, but I'm afraid the absence of top talent at the 1 and at the 5 points to another early exit in March.

Most accurate comment since we started losing. Why we aren't giving Plumlee playing time in front of Brian is beyond me. Zoubek makes 3 or 4 fundamental mistakes every game. When he came out on that pick I wanted to throw my shoe through the tv. He's only done that all season and gets burned just about every time.

duketaylor
02-15-2009, 08:02 PM
"It has been said many times before--we are vulnerable to teams with great point guards. Both NC and BC killed us with dribble penetration. By contrast, we have been lacking this weapon for some time."
Exactly, and Greg started these games; Nolan needs to play PG even if we get little offensive productivity at this time (what did Greg do on offense tonight, besides TOs I mean? And missed rebounds?) If we have any chance in March Nolan needs to play the majority of PG minutes and Greg comes off the bench. Just my opinion. And where is Zoubs in the 2nd half? I just don't get it.
I was less invested in this game than any game in recent memory because I expected this outcome. Now I question what will happen in the coming weeks, not because we appear tired, but because I question some other stuff. This is a good team which plays hard, but there are missing parts and it will/may cost us an early exit, again. Disappointing right now.

superdave
02-15-2009, 08:03 PM
This team was never going to go 34-4 and dominate everyone so lets keep our expectations in check. What we need to worry about is whether we are getting better and getting ready for March.

I'd say the Defense has regressed of late while the Offense has shaken off the woes of two weeks ago. It's time for the D to become a wrecking ball again.

Oriole Way
02-15-2009, 08:03 PM
What have you seen of EW to want to start him? I can't figure this team out but our defense is just awful. We let up late in the first half, let Rice get confidence, and then followed that up with a barrage of fouls.

His ability to rebound, his height and quickness on defense (he still has a ways to go learning positioning, but the only way he will learn is by actually playing), and his ability to drive to the rim on offense would be three attributes which come to mind.

eddiehaskell
02-15-2009, 08:04 PM
Nolan can't stop Rice. Did you see how Lawson abused him? There is simply no one on the team that can stop a good PG.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
02-15-2009, 08:04 PM
These results are only surprising if you exist in an environment where legitimate discussion and criticism are not permitted.

This team has no post. This isn't news.

This team has no PG. This isn't news.

This team has no stars and only one guy who can create his own shot. This isn't news.

If we don't shoot at an above-average clip or play amazing D, we're simply not very good. This is not news.

In the last 3 years K has taken subpar players and made them into solid teams. Kids have played hard but we traded a serious attempt at recruiting for an Olympic gold medal. Let's praise K for doing what he has with the extremely limited tools he's brought in. (The best shovel in the world isn't much good for chopping wood). Let's praise the kids for coming here and giving everything they have.

Unrealistic expectations have been given free reign here. Let's all take a step back, accept what we are, and hope that K's full attention will pay dividends 2-3 years down the road. Until then, let's celebrate the effort, regardless of the results.

BlueintheFace
02-15-2009, 08:05 PM
His ability to rebound, his height and quickness on defense (he still has a ways to go learning positioning, but the only way he will learn is by actually playing), and his ability to drive to the rim on offense would be three which come to mind.

It'd be nice if he knew how to play defense off the ball... it's kind of the most important thing for this team.

geraldsneighbor
02-15-2009, 08:05 PM
"It has been said many times before--we are vulnerable to teams with great point guards. Both NC and BC killed us with dribble penetration. By contrast, we have been lacking this weapon for some time."
Exactly, and Greg started these games; Nolan needs to play PG even if we get little offensive productivity at this time (what did Greg do on offense tonight, besides TOs I mean? And missed rebounds?) If we have any chance in March Nolan needs to play the majority of PG minutes and Greg comes off the bench. Just my opinion. And where is Zoubs in the 2nd half? I just don't get it.
I was less invested in this game than any game in recent memory because I expected this outcome. Now I question what will happen in the coming weeks, not because we appear tired, but because I question some other stuff. This is a good team which plays hard, but there are missing parts and it will/may cost us an early exit, again. Disappointing right now.


Little production from Nolan? That would've been good compared to what he did today.

Houston
02-15-2009, 08:05 PM
Nolan was no better than Greg on D and in fact Greg played pretty well against Rice in the first half.


Paulus had little to do w/Rice's modest output in the first half. Skinner sat Rice for two long stretches in the first half. Rice was also not looking for his offensealf.

Duke should be 0-3 since the line-up change. They are giving up a ton of points and have lost their defensive identity. Since this team will never be a great offensive team, they are going to have to win w/defense.

Congrats to BZ and LT. If we get 16 and 8 from the 5, we should win.

Al Skinner deserves more a lot of credit. He does a great job coaching his kids up!

77devil
02-15-2009, 08:06 PM
This team was never going to go 34-4 and dominate everyone so lets keep our expectations in check. What we need to worry about is whether we are getting better and getting ready for March.

I'd say the Defense has regressed of late while the Offense has shaken off the woes of two weeks ago. It's time for the D to become a wrecking ball again.

I submit that you are wearing deeply tinted blue glasses. Unfortunately, the reality of the current state and potential upside is much worse.

Oriole Way
02-15-2009, 08:07 PM
It'd be nice if he knew how to play defense off the ball... it's kind of the most important thing for this team.

Sure, and it would be nice if Duke didn't allow BC to shoot almost 60% for an entire game. Elliot's not going to learn how to play defense off the ball unless he gets playing time. St. John's is the perfect opponent for that opportunity.

pamtar
02-15-2009, 08:07 PM
These results are only surprising if you exist in an environment where legitimate discussion and criticism are not permitted.

This team has no post. This isn't news.

This team has no PG. This isn't news.

This team has no stars and only one guy who can create his own shot. This isn't news.

If we don't shoot at an above-average clip or play amazing D, we're simply not very good. This is not news.

In the last 3 years K has taken subpar players and made them into solid teams. Kids have played hard but we traded a serious attempt at recruiting for an Olympic gold medal. Let's praise K for doing what he has with the extremely limited tools he's brought in. (The best shovel in the world isn't much good for chopping wood). Let's praise the kids for coming here and giving everything they have.

Unrealistic expectations have been given free reign here. Let's all take a step back, accept what we are, and hope that K's full attention will pay dividends 2-3 years down the road. Until then, let's celebrate the effort, regardless of the results.

Post of the season.

eddiehaskell
02-15-2009, 08:08 PM
I agree DevilCastDown. This team is extremely vulnerable. All of these guys were pretty highly ranked coming out of high school, but I guess we didn't lucky with a Hanbrough or Lawson type of player.

Devilsfan
02-15-2009, 08:09 PM
I think the staff realizes our deficiencies. They probably wish we had some of our best talent at the point or inside but at this juncture there is nothing they can do but play the hand they have constructed.

roywhite
02-15-2009, 08:09 PM
Only an overtime win vs Miami separates us from 4 straight losses.

The shooting could be better, but the slide is mostly about the defense. Once teams get in the lane, they are having great success, and recently we haven't stopped them from getting into the lane. Nolan is either somewhat hurt and/or has lost his confidence and his game. His defense on the perimeter was a big part of a good early season.

SupaDave
02-15-2009, 08:10 PM
I agree DevilCastDown. This team is extremely vulnerable. All of these guys were pretty highly ranked coming out of high school, but I guess we didn't lucky with a Hanbrough or Lawson type of player.

Hunh?

concrete
02-15-2009, 08:10 PM
It'd be nice if he knew how to play defense off the ball... it's kind of the most important thing for this team.

that's the point of throwing him in the fire. Jay Williams played poor defense when he started his freshman year...so did Paulus.

And you say it's important for this team...obviously not!

geraldsneighbor
02-15-2009, 08:10 PM
Maybe we will go 32-7 and win a National Title:)

Faison1
02-15-2009, 08:11 PM
I had a bad feeling about this game going into it, so I am not surprised by the outcome. I thought they played well enough to win, but those horrid turnovers and missed defensive assignments were pretty frustrating. Not sure what the cause of the pattern is, but man, it's getting old.

In some of the other posts, there's been criticism of K for sticking with Paulus. While I am frustrated with Greg too, I'm not sure what the solution is. K can't go with Nolan due to mediocre play of late.

The center position actually played pretty well tonight....good rebounds, good scoring.

Well, I feel bad for those guys. You gotta think that if we, as fans, are feeling bad, those guys, whose hearts bleed for Duke and K, must be feeling like they want to throw some stuff out a window.....or beat up a locker....or something!!

Oriole Way
02-15-2009, 08:11 PM
These results are only surprising if you exist in an environment where legitimate discussion and criticism are not permitted.

This team has no post. This isn't news.

This team has no PG. This isn't news.

This team has no stars and only one guy who can create his own shot. This isn't news.

If we don't shoot at an above-average clip or play amazing D, we're simply not very good. This is not news.

In the last 3 years K has taken subpar players and made them into solid teams. Kids have played hard but we traded a serious attempt at recruiting for an Olympic gold medal. Let's praise K for doing what he has with the extremely limited tools he's brought in. (The best shovel in the world isn't much good for chopping wood). Let's praise the kids for coming here and giving everything they have.

Unrealistic expectations have been given free reign here. Let's all take a step back, accept what we are, and hope that K's full attention will pay dividends 2-3 years down the road. Until then, let's celebrate the effort, regardless of the results.

This is an excellent and rational post, but I still think this team has the talent to turn it around and make a run into the Elite Eight, but only if serious adjustments are made by Coach K (so far, he has not addressed our most glaring problems).

As such, your post sort of sounds like throwing in the towel and expecting mediocrity. I'm not saying that's what you say or what you intend, but those are the implications I pick up on. You may very well turn out to be right, but if the team makes some drastic adjustments, they can turn it around.

eddiehaskell
02-15-2009, 08:12 PM
Hunh?Those are just examples of current dominate players. I'd kill for someone like Jason Williams right now. When he had the ball I always felt like - he's not gonna let us lose. I don't get that feeling with anyone currently on the team (well just a tad from Hendo).

DevilCastDownfromDurham
02-15-2009, 08:13 PM
we don't have any McDAA's on this team at ALL positions....this isn't news

wait a minute...:confused:

Perhaps the McDonald's high school team is an imperfect predictor of college success. Perhaps 2+ years of college play is a better indicator.

COYS
02-15-2009, 08:16 PM
I hate to ruin the pity party, but some of the griping is just way over the top. BC shot over 58% including some really big, contested threes (the wide open three by Rice at the end of the game notwithstanding). We shot under 20% from three and got a total of 11 points from the trio of Scheyer, Paulus, and Smith. That's not going to win a road game if the other team shoots as well as they did. In my opinion, we actually got the kind of post play I'd like to see out of the "5" spot. Thomas was all over the place getting offensive boards and nice put backs. BC played a great game and our B to B- game is just not enough. It happens. College basketball has a short season and as fans, we tend to overreact to one or two games . . . or even four games. This game didn't tell us anything we didn't already know about this team. We can be good, but we have vulnerabilities, particularly if we aren't hitting from outside. The only way I would be worried is if over the past four games we shot 45% from outside, 52% from the floor and Scheyer, Singler, Henderson, Paulus and Smith all averaged double figures over this time. If we were playing that well and losing, then I'd be worried. The fact of the matter is, we may actually have won all the games (except for the Clemson game) if we had played that well. We didn't even come close to playing that well today, in the Miami game (which we still won) or against UNC. Actually, we haven't really played that well yet this season. This is another game where just two made threes from Scheyer may have been enough to win the game.

Now, if you are willing to concede that Scheyer does not have the ability to get hot and Smith and Paulus are doomed to rack up 2 point outings after 2 point outings, well then, I guess the season IS over as far as you're concerned. Scheyer has struggled for consistency this year, but there's no reason he can't find it. Nolan has struggled to adapt, but there's no reason the light can't go on. How far can Nolan and Jon carry us if/when they get hot? Who knows. But I guarantee you it's farther than the first weekend of the Tourney.

Devilsfan
02-15-2009, 08:16 PM
Wait till 2011-2012. That's when our new focus on recruiting (started in 2010) will pay off, IMO.

chrisheery
02-15-2009, 08:17 PM
Except for this: Duke was burned by a guys with less talent today. They didn't have a post player. They had a good PG who, when guarded well today, was kept in check. The announcers were even commenting on how well Rice was being contained. When we got lacksidasical, he made open shots. They had a guy that is similar to Singler but not as talented or as big. Why didn't someone take it personally when that guys started scoring at will? Why didn't Singler become a real leader on this team and say, "I got that guy, and he is not going to score again."

I don't have the answers to these things, but that effort and leadership is usually what defines Duke teams. That is what bothers me about this loss, not the lack of talent on this team in general. That, as noted, will improve with recruiting and is cyclical. The effort and heart is completely up to the players who are on the court.

One other thing. Scheyer's shooting is killing us. The idea of having him play PG and playing a little bigger seems reasonable to me. Let Gerald play SG, McClure SF, Lance PF, Zoub or Plumlee C. Nolan plays backup PG and SG, Paulus could play SG and PG as well. We need Paulus and Scheyer to make open shots. Right now, they aren't making shots that really should be made. Well, Paulus just isn't shooting, which is really odd.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
02-15-2009, 08:17 PM
This is an excellent and rational post, but I still think this team has the talent to turn it around and make a run into the Elite Eight, but only if serious adjustments are made by Coach K (so far, he has not addressed our most serious problems).

As such, your post sort of sounds like throwing in the towel and expecting mediocrity. I'm not saying that's what you say or what you intend, but those are the implications I pick up on. You may very well turn out to be right, but if the team makes some drastic adjustments, they can turn it around.

We've tried both of our putative floor generals with similar results. We've trotted out our 2 post players with similar results. Given the limitations of our current roster (and the class we have coming in next season) what changes would you suggest?

Ian
02-15-2009, 08:18 PM
Or he's comparing Williams to the guys that actually play his position. That's one option.

This is in context of moving Scheyer to PG and put EW in WG.

dukestheheat
02-15-2009, 08:18 PM
In the first half of the UNC game, Duke employed a great strategy to 'slow' Lawson; we had our PG on Lawson all the way up the floor, and at the same time, we'd bring one of our bigger guys up near midcourt to help with the double team. It came off like an 'amoeba double'...sorta slide/slide/contain!

This worked really well and Lawson didn't create a whole lot and more importantly, he scored only 4 points in that half.

We seemed to go away from this in the second half, and then Lawson went crazy; either that, or Carolina was able to capitalize on many Duke misses and get out to midcourt much more quickly than in the first half, and whatever D we could muster wasn't effective.

So, when we face a quick guard (our Achille's Heel, no pun intended), based on what we all saw in the first half of the Carolina game, shouldn't we employ this slide/slide/contain double D at midcourt much more often?

The one thing we give up is solid defense on that high post....but if we can slow the speedy guard and then pressure that first pass, maybe the high post won't matter?

What's your opinion on the defense?

thanks,

dth.

Sixthman
02-15-2009, 08:19 PM
This was a particularly tough loss. We basically have three major options on offense (G, JS, and Singler). I did not think it was possible for us to lose to a second or third tier ACC team when two of the three played well on offense. I was proven wrong tonight. Defense was the issue against BC, but for those who have issues with Duke's offense, it all comes down to not having a playmaker. There is not a player who can drive and create easy opportunities for guys who cannot otherwise get their shots. Our offensive rebounding is good, we get open threes, and G and Singler can get their shots. But the other guys on this team can't (JS might be an exception) and shouldn't be expected to. If Jason Williams were our point guard, Zoubek would average 14 points a game on 7 of 10 shooting (all wide open lay ups). Likewise, Singler would have the same scoring average, but work about half us hard to get his points (which would make him even more effective in other areas) .. . and G would add about four additional dunks a game. I'm inclined to look at the positive. Lance and Dave are both playing better than expected right now. G is play up to expectations (which he did not do as consistently last year). Singler, who was in a mini slump, looks like he is out. If JS and Smith would step back up to playing to their potential, we would be hard to beat. LGD.

grossbus
02-15-2009, 08:19 PM
"if the team makes some drastic adjustments, they can turn it around"

what sort of "drastic adjustments" might you be thinking of?

DukieInBrasil
02-15-2009, 08:19 PM
a few takes from a tough conference road loss:
We out-rebounded BC, good.
We had more assists than turnovers, good.
Very nice game from LT, and a reasonable game from Z, but very little from McClure.
BC scored 80, very bad. Our defense has become porous.
We got our shot blocked 8 times, bad.
We shot badly from 3, again. Bad, Bad, BAD
Nolan Smith played his worst game this year, maybe in both his years at Duke.
Jon Scheyer also played poorly, or at least shot poorly, again.
Jon-Gerald-Kyle shot 3-15 from 3, terrible, mostly because they took too many while shooting poorly rather than being agressive and driving the ball looking to create opportunities.

Bay Area Duke Fan
02-15-2009, 08:20 PM
Except for this: Duke was burned by a guys with less talent today. They didn't have a post player. They had a good PG who, when guarded well today, was kept in check. The announcers were even commenting on how well Rice was being contained. When we got lacksidasical, he made open shots. They had a guy that is similar to Singler but not as talented or as big. Why didn't someone take it personally when that guys started scoring at will? Why didn't Singler become a real leader on this team and say, "I got that guy, and he is not going to score again."

I don't have the answers to these things, but that effort and leadership is usually what defines Duke teams. That is what bothers me about this loss, not the lack of talent on this team in general. That, as noted, will improve with recruiting and is cyclical. The effort and heart is completely up to the players who are on the court.

One other thing. Scheyer's shooting is killing us. The idea of having him play PG and playing a little bigger seems reasonable to me. Let Gerald play SG, McClure SF, Lance PF, Zoub or Plumlee C. Nolan plays backup PG and SG, Paulus could play SG and PG as well. We need Paulus and Scheyer to make open shots. Right now, they aren't making shots that really should be made. Well, Paulus just isn't shooting, which is really odd.

What about Singler?

Kfanarmy
02-15-2009, 08:20 PM
I think the thing I miss the most from this and the teams for the last couple of years is the fire. Fire on the sidelines and Fire on the team when it was time to get going, change strategy, get players attention, get officials attention...whatever. Sometimes feels like you are watching an NBA team mid-season when winning or losing a specific game seems to make so little difference to the staff and players. The only player who seems to bring it emotionally with consistency is McClure. Everyone is working hard, but seem to have no emotion, no fun, no "hell-no" as someone else put it, or "hell-yes" with consistency. That leads to attention lapses. No way Scheyer doesn't move over to Rice on the long three pointer if Scheyer is on fire to win...and paying attention. Where is the fire?

jipops
02-15-2009, 08:21 PM
It's no coincidence that defensive struggles have coincided with Nolan's struggles. When Nolan entered the starting lineup we immediately became an extremely effective defensive team. Not to lay this all on his shoulders but clearly something is going on with Nolan, maybe the back spasms there have been mutterings about? A guy just doesn't become ineffective without explanation.

geraldsneighbor
02-15-2009, 08:22 PM
G had a few nice plays but we need him to be more efficient. I know he had 20 points, but he shot 8-21 and 0-4 from 3. I wish I knew why he settled for a 22 footer to try to tie the game. We played awful down the stretch.

COYS
02-15-2009, 08:22 PM
I submit that you are wearing deeply tinted blue glasses. Unfortunately, the reality of the current state and potential upside is much worse.

Really? Seriously? If we start making a decent percentage of our three point shots (and we only took 16 today, although 4-5 were ill advised), today's game wouldn't have been all that close. You really mean that we don't have the potential to do that? We won every other possible statistical category. We forced more turnovers, got more offensive boards, got more defensive boards . . . we did everything but hit our open shots. They hit their open shots and a few closely contested shots. They made the big buckets. That happens. We need to hit our shots. That's the only way we're going to beat a team like BC that shoots 58%.

chrisheery
02-15-2009, 08:23 PM
What about Singler?

I don't follow. What about him? Please use an antecedent when referring to thoughts that are in question. I had many questionable thoughts.

OldSchool
02-15-2009, 08:23 PM
Paulus had little to do w/Rice's modest output in the first half. Skinner sat Rice for two long stretches in the first half. Rice was also not looking for his offensealf.

Oh I see. If Rice doesn't go off in the first half, it's because he's just "not looking for his offense" and has nothing to do with Greg managing to do a fairly good job staying in front of him (at least when Greg had fresh legs).

I guess the Paulus-haters must have averted their eyes when Greg picked Rice's pocket and took it the other way for a layup at 6:30 in the first half.

Rice had 6 assists but he also had 6 turnovers. Not stellar PG numbers. And he was only 3-4 points above his season average, he didn't "go off" on us.

I'll take 21 from Rice, if we can control the other guys, but we didn't.

Jon's continued slump from 3 pt land and Nolan's dismal offense hurt us more than Greg's D today.

HoleHater
02-15-2009, 08:24 PM
These results are only surprising if you exist in an environment where legitimate discussion and criticism are not permitted.

This team has no post. This isn't news.

This team has no PG. This isn't news.

This team has no stars and only one guy who can create his own shot. This isn't news.

If we don't shoot at an above-average clip or play amazing D, we're simply not very good. This is not news.

In the last 3 years K has taken subpar players and made them into solid teams. Kids have played hard but we traded a serious attempt at recruiting for an Olympic gold medal. Let's praise K for doing what he has with the extremely limited tools he's brought in. (The best shovel in the world isn't much good for chopping wood). Let's praise the kids for coming here and giving everything they have.

Unrealistic expectations have been given free reign here. Let's all take a step back, accept what we are, and hope that K's full attention will pay dividends 2-3 years down the road. Until then, let's celebrate the effort, regardless of the results.

I couldn't agree with you any more. I've been saying that for a while now. We've basically sacrificed our continued high level of success for an Olympic gold medal. The biggest flaw showing is in the talent level of the last three years teams. Meanwhile, Ole Roy is stock piling talent to where his 2nd team has as much talent as our 1st team. I'm personally sick and tired of taking a back seat to the Holes. It's time for K to get it together again and start recruiting the type of players that will again take us back to our rightful spot at the top of college basketball.

eddiehaskell
02-15-2009, 08:24 PM
Get their attention? If a 30 point thrashing against Clemson didn't their attention, I don't think anything will!!

BlueintheFace
02-15-2009, 08:24 PM
that's the point of throwing him in the fire. Jay Williams played poor defense when he started his freshman year...so did Paulus.

And you say it's important for this team...obviously not!

I don't disagree about him playing against St. Johns. I'm just saying that it's not like he is a better option at point than Paulus and Nolan because of defensive reasons (so it's not like he's more deserving of a start). But by all means, show him the floor. I am for that.

COYS
02-15-2009, 08:25 PM
As much as I HATE to see us lose, some of the ridiculous shots they hit had nothing to do with our defense. In most games, you have big "momentum" shots at certain moments of the game. In this game, it felt like BC hit every single one. We had chances to hit daggers, but we missed every opportunity. BC just does not shoot like that against everyone....regardless of the defense.

Now I need to go find my two dogs who are probably hiding under the bed due to my prolific use of loud curse words.....

One of the few rational posts today.

devildownunder
02-15-2009, 08:27 PM
I hate to ruin the pity party, but some of the griping is just way over the top. BC shot over 58% including some really big, contested threes (the wide open three by Rice at the end of the game notwithstanding). We shot under 20% from three and got a total of 11 points from the trio of Scheyer, Paulus, and Smith. That's not going to win a road game if the other team shoots as well as they did. In my opinion, we actually got the kind of post play I'd like to see out of the "5" spot. Thomas was all over the place getting offensive boards and nice put backs. BC played a great game and our B to B- game is just not enough. It happens. College basketball has a short season and as fans, we tend to overreact to one or two games . . . or even four games. This game didn't tell us anything we didn't already know about this team. We can be good, but we have vulnerabilities, particularly if we aren't hitting from outside. The only way I would be worried is if over the past four games we shot 45% from outside, 52% from the floor and Scheyer, Singler, Henderson, Paulus and Smith all averaged double figures over this time. If we were playing that well and losing, then I'd be worried. The fact of the matter is, we may actually have won all the games (except for the Clemson game) if we had played that well. We didn't even come close to playing that well today, in the Miami game (which we still won) or against UNC. Actually, we haven't really played that well yet this season. This is another game where just two made threes from Scheyer may have been enough to win the game.

Now, if you are willing to concede that Scheyer does not have the ability to get hot and Smith and Paulus are doomed to rack up 2 point outings after 2 point outings, well then, I guess the season IS over as far as you're concerned. Scheyer has struggled for consistency this year, but there's no reason he can't find it. Nolan has struggled to adapt, but there's no reason the light can't go on. How far can Nolan and Jon carry us if/when they get hot? Who knows. But I guarantee you it's farther than the first weekend of the Tourney.


Good shooting isn't some magical thing that just happens. It's a function of your talent, skill level, strategy and execution and the same for your opposition. And I think what people are saying is, look, we're coming up on the short end of that equation fairly consistently these days, now that we are regularly playing good teams. There is nothing that's happened recently that suggests we're going to suddenly start performing much more efficiently, however, this is exactly what you are suggesting is going to happen. I don't think most folks would consider that probable at this point.

Bay Area Duke Fan
02-15-2009, 08:27 PM
I don't follow. What about him? Please use an antecedent when referring to thoughts that are in question. I had many questionable thoughts.

You left Singler out of your proposed line-up.

chrisheery
02-15-2009, 08:27 PM
I found myself making the same argument I am seeing here earlier this season. The old argument that if we just start shooting better, we are a really really good team.

Well, we have been saying that all season now and it just doesn't appear that it is going to happen. I hope it does, but we would be a very very good team if we could shot >40% from 3 for the rest of the year. However, what have we seen to make us think that is going to happen?

I agree we have the personnel that should allow us to do this, but for some reason they just are making shots that they should make.

chrisheery
02-15-2009, 08:28 PM
You left Singler out of your proposed line-up.

Wow, you are right. That's absurd. My bad.

scheyer
henderson
mcclure
singler
thomas/zoub

calltheobvious
02-15-2009, 08:29 PM
G had a few nice plays but we need him to be more efficient. I know he had 20 points, but he shot 8-21 and 0-4 from 3. I wish I knew why he settled for a 22 footer to try to tie the game. We played awful down the stretch.

Settling for a 22-footer would have been better. As it was, he settled for a 20.5-footer, i.e. longest two-pointer possible.

Not hanging the loss on that decision by any stretch, but with the weight we put on perimeter shooting to start with, we simply cannot afford bad shot selection, and that was one of several bad examples of such tonight.

yancem
02-15-2009, 08:29 PM
People need to stop blaming our problems on Paulus! No he is not exceptionally quick nor is he a great defender. But while Rice had a solid game, that is not why we lost. Rice scored 21 points which is a good game for him but not exceptional. He also had 6 TO's 2 of which were steals by Paulus.

We lost the game because we made Trapani (20 pt, 7r) look like and AA and we couldn't contain Jackson (15 pt, 5r) either. It also hurt that down the stretch our rebounding which had be very good, completely disappeared.

As for the people who think we lack a go to guy, were you watching the same game as I was? Both Henderson and Singler made huge plays in the last couple of minutes. My only bone to pick in this department was Henderson's shot with about 30 seconds to go. First, we were only down 2 so he should of attacked the basket instead of launching a long jumper and second, his foot was on the line so it wasn't even a 3 pt.

Where do we go from here? I have no idea. This team has talent but for some reason can't seem to concentrate for 40 minutes. Singler seems back from his couple bad games and Henderson is playing very well but Scheyer is all over the map. When he attacks the basket, good things seem to happen but his outside shot is horribly inconsistent. Not sure what is going on with Nolan but he seems to be regressing.

Nice to see Lance have a solid game though! Maybe he will start putting things together.

Bring on the Red Storm.

Oriole Way
02-15-2009, 08:29 PM
We've tried both of our putative floor generals with similar results. We've trotted out our 2 post players with similar results. Given the limitations of our current roster (and the class we have coming in next season) what changes would you suggest?


We've trotted out our 2 post players with similar results.

The fact we actually have 3 competent post players, and that one never gets time, illustrates a problem I have with the current rotation. Miles Plumlee needs meaningful minutes.


Given the limitations of our current roster (and the class we have coming in next season) what changes would you suggest?

I already made a post suggesting a lineup change (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=259199&postcount=67).

Also, our roster is only so limited because Coach K refuses to play two talented freshmen. I think he should start playing them more in earnest. At the very worst, they get valuable experience for next season.

Our main problems are PG play/turnovers, lack of an effective post presence (surprisingly, our post players played very efficiently today), and an over-reliance on 3's and jumpers. Solutions to all three which I propose are letting the offense flow more through Jon Scheyer (and letting him break presses and bring the ball up the court against pressure), playing Plumlee substantially more minutes (actually playing him would be a wonderful first step), and issuing an edict against forced 3's and revamping the offense to emphasize screens and dribble penetration would be three easily employable changes.

arnie
02-15-2009, 08:32 PM
Oh I see. If Rice doesn't go off in the first half, it's because he's just "not looking for his offense" and has nothing to do with Greg managing to do a fairly good job staying in front of him (at least when Greg had fresh legs).

I guess the Paulus-haters must have averted their eyes when Greg picked Rice's pocket and took it the other way for a layup at 6:30 in the first half.

Rice had 6 assists but he also had 6 turnovers. Not stellar PG numbers. And he was only 3-4 points above his season average, he didn't "go off" on us.

I'll take 21 from Rice, if we can control the other guys, but we didn't.

Jon's continued slump from 3 pt land and Nolan's dismal offense hurt us more than Greg's D today.

Your post manages to mention the only points Paulus scored today in 25 minutes. He only took one other shot, so at least he wasn't inefficient. But he did nothing else positive. Let's face it, we're not getting any point guard play now.

mgtr
02-15-2009, 08:32 PM
Several good points made in the preceding posts.

The ACC is a much stronger conference, top to bottom, than most people realized.
Duke is not and was not a top ten team.
Duke played tonight just like they did in their early exits from the NCAA tournament the past two years.
We dribble the ball around the perimeter far too much, and then frequently settle for a poor shot.
When Zoubek comes into the game, we need to immediately switch to a zone to keep him in the middle. The alternative is to keep Zoubek on the bench.
We don't have better players hidden on the bench than we do on the floor.
Boston College played at a level sufficient to win tonight.
We need a little more direction to our offense.

Now, with those nuggets and $5, you can get a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

eddiehaskell
02-15-2009, 08:33 PM
And who do we have that is a consistent "good" 3-point shooter?

Paulus - 33%
Singler - 33%
Scheyer - 36%
Nolan - 35%

This is NOT a very good 3-point shooting team although that's the way we usually have to win. :(

bunker11
02-15-2009, 08:33 PM
We need to go young and become more athletic. Lance had a great game but Duke needs more. The lack of a shotblocker and foot speed at the point is killing Duke. Plumlee needs to see the floor and try to make some blocks. I feel that we are on track to finish a modest 9-7 and exit the NCAA tourney early unless we go young. Foot speed and size are our downfalls and they could both be improved with a lineup change. I also fear that Singlar and G are done after this year. Lets shake things up and see what happens. The worst thing that can happen is Duke continues its downward spiral or Duke can head in the other direction and suprise everyone.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
02-15-2009, 08:33 PM
I think it's easy to buy into the media's outdated assumption that Duke is a team that is deadly from outside. We aren't, and we haven't been all season. Our best shooter is Greg Paulus. Everyone else is streaky (Jon, G, Kyle) or simply not good from outside. Any team can get hot, but the assumption that this is just some crazy slump that we are bound to break out of any minute is, IMO, not supported by our personnel our our production thus far.

COYS
02-15-2009, 08:34 PM
Good shooting isn't some magical thing that just happens. It's a function of your talent, skill level, strategy and execution and the same for your opposition. And I think what people are saying is, look, we're coming up on the short end of that equation fairly consistently these days, now that we are regularly playing good teams. There is nothing that's happened recently that suggests we're going to suddenly start performing much more efficiently, however, this is exactly what you are suggesting is going to happen. I don't think most folks would consider that probable at this point.

I would agree with this more if we didn't have more than one season from which to judge the shooting ability of some of our underperforming sharpshooters. Paulus posted two seasons of plus 42% from outside. Scheyer has been above 40% for long stretches and is very capable of shooting at least 38%. Both of these players have put up very big numbers in very big games against great teams. Nolan Smith is also capable of shooting better from outside. So while we have not shot well from outside on a consistent basis this year, the career statistics would indicate that we are capable of shooting better. Simply put, our ceiling, in my opinion, is directly tied to whether or not we can improve our shooting. A marginal improvement will make a big difference.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
02-15-2009, 08:36 PM
The fact we actually have 3 competent post players, and that one never gets time, illustrates a problem I have with the current rotation. Miles Plumlee needs meaningful minutes.
...
Also, our roster is only so limited because Coach K refuses to play two talented freshmen. I think he should start playing them more in earnest. At the very worst, they get valuable experience for next season.

I would LOVE for this to be the case. I'm not 100% certain that you are correct that they are ready to contribute. I am very close to 100% certain that K will not give them a chance to find out.

Overall, I like your ideas, but I would be very surprised to see K try anything so bold.

chrisheery
02-15-2009, 08:37 PM
the point isn't whether these guys are capable of shooting well. The point is that they haven't shot well and probably won't (consistently) shoot much better all of the sudden.

That is where the concern comes from that we continue to use the 3 point shot like it is our go-to offensive weapon. It should not be.

Newton_14
02-15-2009, 08:37 PM
My first thought- I am 100% convinced that Nolan is hampered by both back and knee injuries. There is no way that kid is healthy.

As for the game...
Too many mental mistakes by veteran guys throughout the entire game led to a close game rather than a comfortable margin throughout.

A few examples:

-A Duke overplay and steal on the side in the 1st half, only to make a mental snafu play and allow BC to steal it right back and it leads to a 3 by BC.
-In the second half a deflection leads to the start of a 3 on 1 Duke break, followed by another mental fart to allow the guy behind you to steal it right back and turn it into a BC layup. Those two plays alone gave BC 5 points and possibly cost Duke 4 points. That's a 9 point swing on two plays.

-A 3 on 2 Duke break with a finisher on the wing and the pass goes to a camera guy
- 2 other instances where the first pass of the offensive set goes directly to BC players for layups the other way. Our point swing is now up to a minimum of 13
- A 13 point lead with less than 2 minutes left in the 1st half goes by the wayside with mental lapses on both ends. Instead of a 10 to 15 point lead at half, now its only a 5 point lead and BC has the ball to start the 2nd half.
-Numerous fastbreak drives where the Duke player goes up in traffic and glides away from the rim and the defender and ends up drawing light contact and misses with no call. In each of those cases the player should have attacked the rim and forced the ref to make the call while also increasing the odds of the shot going in.

-All of the above and yet Duke still has a 1 point lead with less than 1:30 to go.

Mental mistakes throughout the entire game are killing this team. And with veteran players making those mistakes, and the games being lost, I am having a hard time understanding why Plumlee and Williams are not being given a chance to get out there and contribute. At least give them a chance. What could it possibly hurt?

On the positive side, hats off to Lance Thomas for stepping his game up during troublesome times. Sure would be nice to see others follow his lead.

dukediv2013
02-15-2009, 08:39 PM
Is K too proud to give Elliot, Marty, or Plumlee a chance? I want to see at least 10 minutes from all of them vs SJU and let Kyle and G get a rest! We need them down the stretch. I am sick of losing because of the same problems (PG position, lack of depth, and terrible production from Z).

HDB
02-15-2009, 08:39 PM
Time to face some hard truths. Our guys play hard and are exemplary student athletes, but we're simply not among the elite teams this year, and we haven't been for several years now. The lack of an interior defensive stopper has been a real shortcoming since the Landlord left, and we don't have the premiere point guard needed to ignite things on the offensive end and prevent 5-7 minute scoring droughts. I will cheer like heck for this team until the last buzzer sounds at the end of the last game, but I'm afraid the absence of top talent at the 1 and at the 5 points to another early exit in March.

I couldn't agree more with this post. And I don't see it getting any better next year --- we're going to have the same problems. If G and/or Singler leave for the NBA it will be a LONG season for Duke. Sigh.

chrisheery
02-15-2009, 08:40 PM
My first thought- I am 100% convinced that Nolan is hampered by both back and knee injuries. There is no way that kid is healthy.

As for the game...
Too many mental mistakes by veteran guys throughout the entire game led to a close game rather than a comfortable margin throughout.

A few examples:

-A Duke overplay and steal on the side in the 1st half, only to make a mental snafu play and allow BC to steal it right back and it leads to a 3 by BC.
-In the second half a deflection leads to the start of a 3 on 1 Duke break, followed by another mental fart to allow the guy behind you to steal it right back and turn it into a BC layup. Those two plays alone gave BC 5 points and possibly cost Duke 4 points. That's a 9 point swing on two plays.

-A 3 on 2 Duke break with a finisher on the wing and the pass goes to a camera guy
- 2 other instances where the first pass of the offensive set goes directly to BC players for layups the other way. Our point swing is now up to a minimum of 13
- A 13 point lead with less than 2 minutes left in the 1st half goes by the wayside with mental lapses on both ends. Instead of a 10 to 15 point lead at half, now its only a 5 point lead and BC has the ball to start the 2nd half.
-Numerous fastbreak drives where the Duke player goes up in traffic and glides away from the rim and the defender and ends up drawing light contact and misses with no call. In each of those cases the player should have attacked the rim and forced the ref to make the call while also increasing the odds of the shot going in.

-All of the above and yet Duke still has a 1 point lead with less than 1:30 to go.

Mental mistakes throughout the entire game are killing this team. And with veteran players making those mistakes, and the games being lost, I am having a hard time understanding why Plumlee and Williams are not being given a chance to get out there and contribute. At least give them a chance. What could it possibly hurt?

On the positive side, hats off to Lance Thomas for stepping his game up during troublesome times. Sure would be nice to see others follow his lead.

Tremendous post. Couldn't agree more with the lack of mental toughness and decision making on this team. We have veterans who aren't playing like veterans.

dbd4ever
02-15-2009, 08:41 PM
I am kind of sitting here in awe right now, still wondering if that really just happened! And for some reason, this loss doesn't sting as bad as the three before it. For some weird reason, I feel that there is something more to come from this Duke team. I have this feeling that this team is going to show up when the cards are down and that they are just in a funk right now.(as a team) I read a lot of posts on here and see a lot of good points and some other things that don't even make sense, but that's how opinions go. I would really like to see Miles and Elliot get in the game more, because if we are going to make a deep run, I believe that both of them will have to contribute in some sort of way. Whatever that may be.

And I know we don't have a Lawson or a Hansbrough, but where in the past three years have they put UNC that would make us as Duke fans so envious? They have been to the final four and humiliated and they have been annointed the preseason champs the last two years. And as I recall, that's no better than finishing in the second round or in the sweet sixteen or whatever you may. We all have become spoiled and we want another national title! Right??? And if I remember correctly, the last few years we have all talked about giving up these regular season wins for deeper runs in the tournament and better overall post season performances. But when we start losing those regular season games, the sky starts falling on this board all over again!

We have a lot of talent on this team, but I think we just have to find the right combination to put on the floor in crunch time. Everybody talked about the Paulus, Scheyer, Henderson, Singler, and McClure lineup but that lineup has not looked so great as of late. And what is with the uncharacteristic fouls by McClure in the last two games? He makes good plays on D and then will make some silly fouls. The same goes for Lance and Greg. Just way oof base for the guys on this team or any Duke team.

The go to scorer on this team appears to be Gerald, but for some reason, I feel so much more comfortable when the ball is in Kyle's hands during crunch time. He seems to will the ball in the basket some times! Ex: the put back after he missed two free throws tonight. We have three to four guys who can create their own shot. But it's just that only two of them choose to do it when the team is in need of a bucket.

My only gripe with this team is I just wish that when we get in a tough game or in any game for that matter, I wish the coaching staff outside of Nate James would act like they are involved and not just giving directions and making substitutions. K sits there like he is in another world during some of the games!! Just my .02!!!!

DukeDevilDeb
02-15-2009, 08:41 PM
Nominated: most inaccurate characterization of the game in this thread

Seconded, doubled, and redoubled. I thought Nolan made some really poor plays. When he's leading the break, no matter who is open or ready to shoot, Nolan takes it to the basket and usually misses.

How can we have a point guard who has an assist to turnover ratio of 40-42 going into this game? Darn it! Where is Chris Duhon when you need him?

eddiehaskell
02-15-2009, 08:42 PM
Singer is DEFINITELY not ready for the NBA. That would be a horrible mistake. Hendo could probably get by on athleticism, but he isn't ready either.

eddiehaskell
02-15-2009, 08:45 PM
And I know we don't have a Lawson or a Hansbrough, but where in the past three years have they put UNC that would make us as Duke fans so envious? They have been to the final four and humiliated and they have been annointed the preseason champs the last two years. And as I recall, that's no better than finishing in the second round or in the sweet sixteen or whatever you may. We all have become spoiled and we want another national title! Right??? I'd kill for an elite 8 or final 4!!

People like Hanbrough and Lawson give UNC fans the feeling that they can win it all every year. I want that feeling. :D

OldSchool
02-15-2009, 08:45 PM
As for the game...
Too many mental mistakes by veteran guys throughout the entire game led to a close game rather than a comfortable margin throughout.

This is the best characterization of the game.

Those lamenting a lack of talented players are way off. We have more than enough talented players to beat BC at BC.

Oriole Way
02-15-2009, 08:46 PM
I would LOVE for this to be the case. I'm not 100% certain that you are correct that they are ready to contribute. I am very close to 100% certain that K will not give them a chance to find out.

Overall, I like your ideas, but I would be very surprised to see K try anything so bold.

Well I think it would be a mistake for K not to even give those kids another look.

Plumlee is a mobile 6"10 big man. He's going to miss some assignments and commit fouls. But I honestly think he has a good learning curve, and he would improve quickly in game situations. At worst, you speed up his curve so that he'll be ready to contribute next season. He will provide us with some rebounding and shot-blocking ability, even for a few minutes a game. There's nothing wrong with a player coming in and playing hard for 10 minutes, even if he fouls out. At least you save Thomas and Zoubek for a few minutes, and you hopefully wear out the opponent a little.

Today, Thomas fouled out with a few minutes to go. Perhaps playing Plumlee could have meant Thomas would have been on the floor to cleanup Henderson's miss in the last minute of the game, or to pick up some key defensive rebounds instead of letting BC get second chance points or trips to the foul line.

K's propensity to choke his rotation late in the season is bad for this team, and has been bad for many Duke teams since the '01 title.

weezie
02-15-2009, 08:58 PM
We're just so damned short. Short, short, short! Fine athletes, sure; most everybody in elite Div I hoops has athletic ability but it's the putting it together part that is eluding us this year.

I miss Johnny Dawkins and I would venture that K does, too. The forest is obscuring the trees this season.

gmorris22
02-15-2009, 08:59 PM
Wait till 2011-2012. That's when our new focus on recruiting (started in 2010) will pay off, IMO.
You are so correct because it is not going to get better next year.

SupaDave
02-15-2009, 08:59 PM
I'd kill for an elite 8 or final 4!!

People like Hanbrough and Lawson give UNC fans the feeling that they can win it all every year. I want that feeling. :D

This is curious b/c those two haven't won it all.

jipops
02-15-2009, 08:59 PM
"It has been said many times before--we are vulnerable to teams with great point guards. Both NC and BC killed us with dribble penetration. By contrast, we have been lacking this weapon for some time."
Exactly, and Greg started these games; Nolan needs to play PG even if we get little offensive productivity at this time (what did Greg do on offense tonight, besides TOs I mean? And missed rebounds?) If we have any chance in March Nolan needs to play the majority of PG minutes and Greg comes off the bench. Just my opinion. And where is Zoubs in the 2nd half? I just don't get it.
I was less invested in this game than any game in recent memory because I expected this outcome. Now I question what will happen in the coming weeks, not because we appear tired, but because I question some other stuff. This is a good team which plays hard, but there are missing parts and it will/may cost us an early exit, again. Disappointing right now.

What is some of the other stuff you're questioning?

I'm with you in that I wasn't feeling the warm and fuzzies before this one either. I felt especially pessimistic after we pretty much blew a 13 pt lead just before halftime. I agree as well that Nolan simply must be our primary guy at the point (though 1-6 looks like less of an option). Unless he's playing with injury (which I'm very much afraid he is) we are simply are far better defensive squad. I have no idea what the thinking is with not playing any Zoubs again in the 2nd, maybe Lance's excellent play?

DevilCastDownfromDurham
02-15-2009, 09:04 PM
And I know we don't have a Lawson or a Hansbrough, but where in the past three years have they put UNC that would make us as Duke fans so envious?

4-0 at Cameron. ACC Champions. 2nd weekend of the tournament. That sort of thing.


My only gripe with this team is I just wish that when we get in a tough game or in any game for that matter, I wish the coaching staff outside of Nate James would act like they are involved and not just giving directions and making substitutions. K sits there like he is in another world during some of the games!! Just my .02!!!!

I've noticed this as well. K's comments after the UNC game made me wonder if he has genuinely not understood how outgunned we are. K's record speaks for itself, but he's seemed very passive recently. I've been chalking that up to confidence, but I'm starting to wonder if that's a deer-in-the-headlights look.

I'd imagine team psyche is pretty fragile now. We need K's leadership in the worst way and there hasn't been much evidence of it thus far. I'm really afraid that the negative spiral is going to destroy our confidence completely. We're "experienced" but we haven't experienced winning. At some point experience prepares you to fail again, rather than to succeed. We know that the Olympics decimated our talent base. I'm increasingly afraid that it cost us our team culture as well.

jipops
02-15-2009, 09:05 PM
I'd kill for an elite 8 or final 4!!

People like Hanbrough and Lawson give UNC fans the feeling that they can win it all every year. I want that feeling. :D

I'm totally fine never having a guy like Lawson on my team.

eddiehaskell
02-15-2009, 09:06 PM
This is curious b/c those two haven't won it all.Well Lawson has had 2 years and Hansbrough 3. This year isn't over so don't count them out yet. Regardless, a lot of great players don't win it all - I can live with that as long as the team consistently plays well.

karmacoma
02-15-2009, 09:06 PM
I am starting to sense a trend with Duke's tendency to switch on defense; it just leads teams to continue to move the ball around the perimeter until they get the matchup they want. It seemed several times that BC's wings got a step on a switching defender and it was just the seam the needed. The absence of the 1 and the 5 to dominate their positions defensively further exposes this situation.

Indeed.

eddiehaskell
02-15-2009, 09:07 PM
I'm totally fine never having a guy like Lawson on my team.I guess you're fine with losing.:confused:

dbd4ever
02-15-2009, 09:08 PM
I'd kill for an elite 8 or final 4!!

People like Hanbrough and Lawson give UNC fans the feeling that they can win it all every year. I want that feeling. :D

I'm not going to speak for other people on this board, but if we had made the elite eight last year and this season is going as follows, that's not making me feel any better!! I do not envy UCLA at this point at all!! They have been in the final four 3 years running with nothing to show for it! There's always going to be disappointment with a loss, but I understand where you are coming from wanting to feel that way about your team. I'll take Kyle and Gerald any day over the two heels.

geraldsneighbor
02-15-2009, 09:09 PM
I guess you're fine with losing.:confused:

I like high character players. Lawson IMO isn't one.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
02-15-2009, 09:09 PM
I'm totally fine never having a guy like Lawson on my team.

Yeah, any team that would allow a guy that was cocky and got a DUI has no class at all.

http://at3113.k12.sd.us/jj_redick.jpg


Glass houses. Pots. Kettles. That sort of thing . . .

dbd4ever
02-15-2009, 09:10 PM
I guess you're fine with losing.:confused:

Sounds like you need to choose a new blue????:D

geraldsneighbor
02-15-2009, 09:11 PM
Yeah, any team that would allow a guy that was cocky and got a DUI has no class at all.

http://at3113.k12.sd.us/jj_redick.jpg


Glass houses. Pots. Kettles. That sort of thing . . .

Are we seriously comparing JJ and Ty Lawson? Wow.

jipops
02-15-2009, 09:11 PM
Yeah, any team that would allow a guy that was cocky and got a DUI has no class at all.

http://at3113.k12.sd.us/jj_redick.jpg


Glass houses. Pots. Kettles. That sort of thing . . .

Not what I was inferring, but interpret what you want. That's what sports talk radio does.

devildownunder
02-15-2009, 09:12 PM
I would agree with this more if we didn't have more than one season from which to judge the shooting ability of some of our underperforming sharpshooters. Paulus posted two seasons of plus 42% from outside. Scheyer has been above 40% for long stretches and is very capable of shooting at least 38%. Both of these players have put up very big numbers in very big games against great teams. Nolan Smith is also capable of shooting better from outside. So while we have not shot well from outside on a consistent basis this year, the career statistics would indicate that we are capable of shooting better. Simply put, our ceiling, in my opinion, is directly tied to whether or not we can improve our shooting. A marginal improvement will make a big difference.

I'll give you Scheyer, because I think prolonged shooting struggles are a mystery to us all, but expecting Smith to just suddenly put it all together and get his shooting touch back if far-fetched, I think. He has enough to do to get his head right enough to stay on the floor with all he's been through this year, learning a new position on the fly, bench to starter back to bench, etc. And Paulus' situation is similar. As crazy as it may sound, I think both those players have many things they have to figure out before they'll find comfortable enough to be good shooters again, so I don't think it's just happenstance that their numbers are down.

Zeke
02-15-2009, 09:12 PM
I just don't understand how someone who has played 30 minutes for an ACC team doesn't know how to set a pick without moving or how a player doesn;t know how to rub off a pick properly. LT got called for a moving pick tonight (3rd or 4th foul - I've forgotten which). This is not the first time this has been called but darn it that's baskeball 101.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
02-15-2009, 09:13 PM
So other than color (of uniform, let's say) how are J.J. and Lawson different?

SupaDave
02-15-2009, 09:13 PM
Well Lawson has had 2 years and Hansbrough 3. This year isn't over so don't count them out yet. Regardless, a lot of great players don't win it all - I can live with that as long as the team consistently plays well.

Sounds like you want to be a UNC fan. If it's the bandwagon you seek - then please - hop on. However, as a lifelong fan I'm aware that there's an ebb and flow to this thing and you just have to enjoy the ride.

Some of you don't know what it feels like to lose as a Duke fan. But trust me, it happens. If you can't support the team when they are struggling then they don't really need you when they are winning. Just think about that.

I have no UNC envy. Not even when they had Jordan. As long as the kids continue to play Duke basketball then I'm happy.

SupaDave
02-15-2009, 09:15 PM
I just don't understand how someone who has played 30 minutes for an ACC team doesn't know how to set a pick without moving or how a player doesn;t know how to rub off a pick properly. LT got called for a moving pick tonight (3rd or 4th foul - I've forgotten which). This is not the first time this has been called but darn it that's baskeball 101.

He had one of his best games this season - and this is what you want to talk about?

dbd4ever
02-15-2009, 09:16 PM
Sounds like you want to be a UNC fan. If it's the bandwagon you seek - then please - hop on. However, as a lifelong fan I'm aware that there's an ebb and flow to this thing and you just have to enjoy the ride.

Some of you don't know what it feels like to lose as a Duke fan. But trust me, it happens. If you can't support the team when they are struggling then they don't really need you when they are winning. Just think about that.

I have no UNC envy. Not even when they had Jordan. As long as the kids continue to play Duke basketball then I'm happy.

Best post on this thread!! Nice Supadave!!

SupaDave
02-15-2009, 09:18 PM
I like high character players. Lawson IMO isn't one.

And you know WHAT about Lawson other than the fact that he is a COLLEGE athlete playing at an elite level in a small town and has desires to be tax-paying citizen by playing professional baskeball after his stint as a student-athlete? UNC does community outreach too. Please check yourself.

Acymetric
02-15-2009, 09:18 PM
So other than color (of uniform, let's say) how are J.J. and Lawson different?

Well, I believe Lawson has had multiple (two) alcohol/driving related incidents to JJ's one (that I can remember). Though there was the incident with the room full of marijuana smoke...

geraldsneighbor
02-15-2009, 09:19 PM
He had one of his best games this season - and this is what you want to talk about?

I think the frustration comes from him not being able to stay on the floor when we need him. Lance played great tonight, but those fouls sort of changed the landscape of the game since Dave was struggling on the interior.

Tonight felt so much like that WVU game last year. We had a big lead and should have led by more at half time. Mazulla and Rice each killed us. Same with Alexander and Trapani.

eddiehaskell
02-15-2009, 09:21 PM
Sounds like you want to be a UNC fan. If it's the bandwagon you seek - then please - hop on. However, as a lifelong fan I'm aware that there's an ebb and flow to this thing and you just have to enjoy the ride.Choose another team because I like to call it like I see it? It seems like you say I'm in the wrong if I said anything slightly negative about Duke going 4-20.:rolleyes:


Some of you don't know what it feels like to lose as a Duke fan. But trust me, it happens. If you can't support the team when they are struggling then they don't really need you when they are winning. Just think about that.I support the team, but I'm also willing to be rationale sometimes and point out areas where I think there is weakness. I do envy success. I'm also little angry right now with the way the last few weeks have went so I may criticize a little more than normal.:p

Acymetric
02-15-2009, 09:22 PM
Sounds like you want to be a UNC fan. If it's the bandwagon you seek - then please - hop on. However, as a lifelong fan I'm aware that there's an ebb and flow to this thing and you just have to enjoy the ride.

Some of you don't know what it feels like to lose as a Duke fan. But trust me, it happens. If you can't support the team when they are struggling then they don't really need you when they are winning. Just think about that.

I have no UNC envy. Not even when they had Jordan. As long as the kids continue to play Duke basketball then I'm happy.

I think you're being a little harsh on the guy considering all he did was point out that Carolina has some really talented basketball players. Isn't he right?

jipops
02-15-2009, 09:23 PM
Sounds like you want to be a UNC fan. If it's the bandwagon you seek - then please - hop on. However, as a lifelong fan I'm aware that there's an ebb and flow to this thing and you just have to enjoy the ride.

Some of you don't know what it feels like to lose as a Duke fan. But trust me, it happens. If you can't support the team when they are struggling then they don't really need you when they are winning. Just think about that.

I have no UNC envy. Not even when they had Jordan. As long as the kids continue to play Duke basketball then I'm happy.

This thread seems to be very much exposing those that have been following Duke ball since '99, and those that have followed it since well before the 90's. Now we're talking about wishing we had someone like Lawson or Hans? Are you serious?!!!?? Seriously, if you can't handle this type of struggle then you should re-consider your fan-hood. You obviously didn't live through Wagner. I hate these losses too, but no way in hell I'm wishing away our guys and wishing for someone else's guys, especially if they've worn some sissy pale blue. I don't care if it's 3 LeBrons. I want OUR guys. Unfortunately I don't think we are completely seeing OUR guys right now. I don't know if it's injury, fatigue, or what... but clearly something is going on we're not completely privy to. Sure there are multiple weaknesses but nothing we haven't or shouldn't already know about.

But win or lose, no matter the talent of the personnel, this is MY team just as much as any other team. And that will never change.

geraldsneighbor
02-15-2009, 09:24 PM
We are what we are. Until we get a point guard, a big and some athletes we will struggle. Every game from here on out will be tough, including Maryland. Gary's back is to the wall. We played hard tonight, but we are everybody's game 7, which means they bring a little more to the table. I agree with the poster who said that if we lose G and Singler we could be in for a LONG year. Also, Nolan might be hurt. He doesn't look nearly as confident as he did early in the year.


I don't think either are ready to go to the NBA. Both are putting up big numbers because the supporting cast has been lacking of late.

HDB
02-15-2009, 09:24 PM
I was at tonight's game and was feeling really good for the first 18 minutes --- then the defense completely left the building. I'm totally perplexed as to what happened. I kept saying to my son, "we just need one stop and then I think Duke will win". Unfortuntely that one stop never came.

One other thing that was painfully obvious to me. BC was much much better balanced on the offensive end than was Duke tonight. When Duke had the ball it was Hendo and Singler and everyone else watching. Did Paulus even attempt one FG tonight? Very strange that he played so many minutes and I don't recall him taking a single 3. If we're going to play him starter's minutes he MUST contribute from behind the arc --- otherwise it's not worth having him on the floor.

HDB
02-15-2009, 09:27 PM
I don't think either are ready to go to the NBA. Both are putting up big numbers because the supporting cast has been lacking of late.

Since when is "being ready" a criteria that anyone uses these days? I personally think Hendo's game is NBA ready and believe he would be a mid-first rounder. Not sure on Singler.

Who was it around here that seemed to think Scheyer was an NBA prospect? I wish that were the case, but I'm not seeing that right now. We really need Scheyer to step up down the stretch.

Acymetric
02-15-2009, 09:28 PM
This thread seems to be very much exposing those that have been following Duke ball since '99, and those that have followed it since well before the 90's. Now we're talking about wishing we had someone like Lawson or Hans? Are you serious?!!!?? Seriously, if you can't handle this type of struggle then you should re-consider your fan-hood. You obviously didn't live through Wagner. I hate these losses too, but no way in hell I'm wishing away our guys and wishing for someone else's guys, especially if they've worn some sissy pale blue. I don't care if it's 3 LeBrons. I want OUR guys. Unfortunately I don't think we are completely seeing OUR guys right now. I don't know if it's injury, fatigue, or what... but clearly something is going on we're not completely privy to. Sure there are multiple weaknesses but nothing we haven't or shouldn't already know about.

But win or lose, no matter the talent of the personnel, this is MY team just as much as any other team. And that will never change.

Look, I appreciate the sentiment, and I'm really glad we have this group of guys, but there is nothing wrong with wishing you had more talent. Going to Duke doesn't make them the best kids ever. There are other kids on other teams right now that have more character and talent than some of the guys on our team. And there is nothing wrong with not having the best guys, just like there is nothing wrong with the people that didn't choose Duke.

Wishing there were more talent or better performance from your team doesn't make you a bad fan. Get over yourself.

SupaDave
02-15-2009, 09:28 PM
I think you're being a little harsh on the guy considering all he did was point out that Carolina has some really talented basketball players. Isn't he right?

That's not quite what he was doing - OR where he was going.

geraldsneighbor
02-15-2009, 09:29 PM
I just threw up as the Holes went up 4 with 11 seconds left.

eddiehaskell
02-15-2009, 09:32 PM
I think you're being a little harsh on the guy considering all he did was point out that Carolina has some really talented basketball players. Isn't he right?Exactly. I don't want Lawson. I don't want Hans. I'd like to have a pretty dominate player inside or at the point.

arydolphin
02-15-2009, 09:32 PM
OK, this thread is going more towards broader discussion of the season and beyond as opposed to just this game, but I'll try to bring it back to the game itself since I just got back from being at the game.

First things first, there was a good number of Duke fans in the house, and we even got some "Let's Go Duke" chants going in the second half. However, the BC crowd finally got into the game in the second half (it was way too quiet in the first half), and props to them on the win. The students were excited, and I have no problem with them storming the court.

The only stats I could see at the game were the amount of points that each player had and the team fouls. So I didn't know shooting percentages until I came home, but it really seemed to me that BC was shooting a high percentage from the field. I had no idea it was 59%! Duke didn't lose this game because of their offense, they lost because they couldn't stop BC in the second half. I thought that Duke had some success with the traps in the backcourt that they ran in the first half, I'm unsure of why they went away from it in the second half. Also, give K credit for trying the 1-3-1 zone throughout the game, at least it was something different than just staying in the man-to-man all game. However, the zone may have been an admission that Duke didn't have anyone to match up one-on-one with Rice. I just think that the zone left too many holes for drives, and BC found ways to exploit the zone as the game went along.

On the Duke side, Singler just about had the quietest 25 points I've seen in a while, he played really well tonight. Gerald also made some big shots down the stretch. He gets hurt because even when Duke runs clear-outs for him on one side of the floor, the other players on the defensive team can help off of guys like McClure and Thomas, and that's causing G to pass a bunch once he gets into the lane or throw up tough shots. Lance brought a lot of energy to the game and was good on the boards as well, it really hurt when he picked up his 4th foul early in the second half. Also, Lance was the most vocal guy on the bench, though it wasn't to the extent as he did in the Clemson game. With regards to the 4th foul on Lance and others, the officiating was very inconsistent for both teams, and way too many fouls were called early in the second half.

One other thing in terms of the rotation and depth: K has established that this team is at least 8-deep, and when EWill and Plumlee come in, it can go 10-deep. I'm disappointed like others are than EWill and Plumlee haven't been able to come in as freshman and make significant contributions (to say nothing of Czyz, who has barely played at all this year). I just don't think that we can expect any of the freshman this year to turn into impact performers down the line since they haven't brought much to the table this year. They may turn into solid players in the future, but expecting them to be stars may be a bit much. However, for those that want EWill and Plumlee to play, who do you want them to take minutes from? K isn't just going to throw them out there for nothing, we all pretty much know the rotation isn't going to expand at this time.

One last comment: I know that a bunch of us really wish that Zoubek could give the team more on both ends of the floor. His size can be effective at the defensive end, but he's really hurt by his lack of foot speed. Exhibit A is where he got screened again tonight and his guy got an alley-oop behind him, just like Hansbrough did on Wednesday night. On offense, I just don't think that anyone can expect Zoubek to score much because he spends most of his time on the offensive end looking to set screens for other guys, even when he's on the block! When he does post up, he barely gets the ball thrown to him as well. Of course, when he's on the court he's probably the 4th option at best, but to get much out of him at the offensive end for the rest of this season probably isn't going to happen.

Sorry that this became so long, but I had some time to stew over the loss....that's what sitting in a parking garage in traffic for 20 minutes will do to you. As an fan at the game, the game was thoroughly enjoyable and a great college game, I just wish the result was different.

SupaDave
02-15-2009, 09:35 PM
Look, I appreciate the sentiment, and I'm really glad we have this group of guys, but there is nothing wrong with wishing you had more talent. Going to Duke doesn't make them the best kids ever. There are other kids on other teams right now that have more character and talent than some of the guys on our team. And there is nothing wrong with not having the best guys, just like there is nothing wrong with the people that didn't choose Duke.

Wishing there were more talent or better performance from your team doesn't make you a bad fan. Get over yourself.

See this is where you are WRONG. We've done GREAT things with LESS talent. It doesn't matter who's out there if the team plays together, communicates, and makes plays. Just ask UNLV.

Wishing for more talent is a WASTE of time b/c it's not gonna happen until the next season - at which point you'll already be looking for more talent.

I can remember when people criticized Shelden and Boozer - now we WISH they were here. But they are gone - get over it.

I can't say wishing makes you a bad fan but being knowledgeable, enjoying the game, and being able to adequately critique the team after a WIN or LOSS definitely might make you a BETTER fan.

watzone
02-15-2009, 09:39 PM
Best post on this thread!! Nice Supadave!!

Can I borrow Supa's post for my board? Wow, what a meltdown. I've been here before and as has been mentioned seen DBB for years. Now, lets throw em all under the bus talk about what ifs and ... okay, so this post doesn't help too much.

SMO
02-15-2009, 09:40 PM
I was at tonight's game and was feeling really good for the first 18 minutes --- then the defense completely left the building. I'm totally perplexed as to what happened. I kept saying to my son, "we just need one stop and then I think Duke will win". Unfortuntely that one stop never came.

One other thing that was painfully obvious to me. BC was much much better balanced on the offensive end than was Duke tonight. When Duke had the ball it was Hendo and Singler and everyone else watching. Did Paulus even attempt one FG tonight? Very strange that he played so many minutes and I don't recall him taking a single 3. If we're going to play him starter's minutes he MUST contribute from behind the arc --- otherwise it's not worth having him on the floor.

I was wondering the same thing: where'd the D go? It looked like Duke could have made it very difficult for BC to come back after halftime, but let off the gas a little late in the first half and never quite got their groove back.

In addition to the D disappearing, one key possession really bugged me. Smith took a quick 3 and missed with under 2 minutes to go in the first half and fortunately Duke got the rebound. Then Smith took the same 3 again way too quickly and missed again. It was a great opportunity to use some clock and get a better shot and/or slow BC down and go into the half with a comfortable lead. Instead, it seemed to give BC a chance to get it close, which they did.

watzone
02-15-2009, 09:41 PM
See this is where you are WRONG. We've done GREAT things with LESS talent. It doesn't matter who's out there if the team plays together, communicates, and makes plays. Just ask UNLV.

Wishing for more talent is a WASTE of time b/c it's not gonna happen until the next season - at which point you'll already be looking for more talent.

I can remember when people criticized Shelden and Boozer - now we WISH they were here. But they are gone - get over it.

I can't say wishing makes you a bad fan but being knowledgeable, enjoying the game, and being able to adequately critique the team after a WIN or LOSS definitely might make you a BETTER fan.


What are you doing Dave? You're bringing logic into this emotional tornado and for what reason? Good job, carry on. You earn your wages on a night like this. I thought about a shut down over my way and never saw the venom coming. Here is to DBR for keeping it real.

throatybeard
02-15-2009, 09:47 PM
I thought about a shut down over my way

I hear that. Honestly, I've long thought shutting down the board for 6 hours after every loss would be the way to go. 12 after a loss to UNC and 24 after the season-terminal loss.

The1Bluedevil
02-15-2009, 09:47 PM
I'm totally fine never having a guy like Lawson on my team.

Well Mr. Lawson just carried his team to two very impressive road wins. I would like him living in the paint on my team.

dukediv2013
02-15-2009, 09:50 PM
Carolina will not lose another ACC game this year... tonight was the last chance. They have 2 more road games and 3 home games and will finish 5-0. They will have won 14 straight ACC games and Duke will finish 10-6. This is so frustrating, but I believe that it is going to be true.

roywhite
02-15-2009, 09:53 PM
http://www.goduke.com/pdf4/378051.pdf?ATCLID=3671272&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Great shooting by BC, including Roche and Jackson off the bench. Nolan Smith is totally missing in action. In 19 minutes, he had 1 point, 1 rebound, 0 asst, 0 steals. Injury problems? Or confidence gone and game falling apart?

6th Man
02-15-2009, 09:54 PM
I am never happy to see a loss, but I was at least happy to see us try some zone in this game. I know Duke tries it from time to time, but we stuck with it a little bit tonight. I have grown sick and tired of the overplaying man to man defense and seeing quicker PG's abuse us with no thought about making adjustments to stop it. When Paulus and Zoubek are in the game a zone makes sense. They do not have the physical abilities to play man to man against quick teams. Rice was blowing by Paulus and we got no help side defense to bail him out. Back when we had the Landlord we could erase a lot of defensive mistakes with his shotblocking. Our team is what it is, and for the first time in a long time, I saw Duke make an adjustment. We did not win, but if Duke looks to adjust to who we have on the court and what we are guarding we may finally see some improvement down the homestretch. I thought B.C. played great and Duke played OK. Duke didn't lose this game tonight...B.C. won it. I can live with that. Sometimes it just isn't your night. This was not like the Clemson game.

atltuba
02-15-2009, 09:59 PM
Look, I've been watching Duke teams for 15 years and have always been way too emotionally attached. I thought this team seemed different than the past two years and was not expecting a similar end of season swoon. Despite the poor play and results from the last few games, I still think this team CAN turn things around.

With that said, against UNC and BC, similar trends to the past popped up: lost leads in the second half due to exceptional shooting percentages from the opponent and poor offensive displays from Duke in the second half. The problem of penetration prevention didnt affect the game in the first half against BC or against UNC. And Duke shot extraordinarily well in the first half against the Holes and pretty well in the first half against BC. The common denominator: second half issues!

How do we solve this? K has always had his players go 100% whenever they are in the game, and this year is no different. As a player, when you start to get tired, the first thing to go is outside shooting, and the second is hustling/making the extra effort on D (getting out on a shooter, not helping quick enough, recovering after lunging for a steal...). Thats what plagued Duke tonight down the stretch. The answer is simple: go deeper down the bench.

I totally understand that Elliot, Miles, and Marty may not be able to contribute on a big time level, and, quite frankly, don't expect them to (yet, for the freshmen). However, giving those three as little as 3-5 minutes each during the first half or early in the second would provide just enough rest for the starters to stay on top of their game down the stretch. Gerald, Jon, and Kyle simply can't maintain a 36, 36, and 37 min per game pace and stay at the top of their game. The issue isnt our D, our O, our 5 position, or our point situation; its our lack bench use.

I love and respect K and hate to second guess the man, but K, I implore you, consider giving your big 3 a blow earlier in games so that they can have the energy to finish this season on top!

eddiehaskell
02-15-2009, 10:00 PM
Wanting more talent probably IS a waste of time (unless you have the ability to do something about it), but sometimes it's the most logical explanation for the events that have unfolded. I'm not saying the team can't get better this year and do well, but there are obvious weaknesses when we match up against good PGs or big men. Unfortunately, we've still gotta go through UNC and Wake again and we'll probably face one of them in the ACC tournament. Going into the tourney with a 5 or 6 seed makes me a little nervous.

The season definitely isn't over, but I want to see at least competitive performances against Wake and Duke. We beat FSU and VT pretty easily earlier in the year and I think those games could be a signpost of the teams progress (or lack of) this year.

RelativeWays
02-15-2009, 10:00 PM
I'd play EW and Miles more the rest of this season for 2 reasons

1. We need them to gain experience for next season when their contributions will be more important (especially if G is gone).

2. We need them to play more so they don't transfer, especially EW.

I'm not seeing much out of this team that makes me think they're better than last year, but its an awful lot like 2007, which means we run the risk of becoming the highlight of some mediocre team who seldom gets to the tourney. Id rather not go at all than have VCU happen again.

There are no answers on this team for this year, but there is a lot of potential for next season. We have a lot of players hopefully returning and some young guys that can make immediate contributions if they're ready. Now we just need to play the best we can for the rest of the season.

BlueintheFace
02-15-2009, 10:02 PM
I am sad.

The pessimist in me says:

Let's stay afloat until Chapel Hill. Then, let's beat Carolina and win the ACC Championship. How we finish this regular season and ACC tourney seems to be more important this year than any in the recent past.

The optimist in me says:

Every game is an opportunity to turn it around. We can go on a big run starting @SJ

Acymetric
02-15-2009, 10:04 PM
See this is where you are WRONG. We've done GREAT things with LESS talent. It doesn't matter who's out there if the team plays together, communicates, and makes plays. Just ask UNLV.

Wishing for more talent is a WASTE of time b/c it's not gonna happen until the next season - at which point you'll already be looking for more talent.

I can remember when people criticized Shelden and Boozer - now we WISH they were here. But they are gone - get over it.

I can't say wishing makes you a bad fan but being knowledgeable, enjoying the game, and being able to adequately critique the team after a WIN or LOSS definitely might make you a BETTER fan.

I think its possible to look forward to adding more talent in the future and still critique the team as is perfectly fine. I'm not saying give up on this season (some people are, and those people are idiots). If being knowledgeable means not acknowledging talent deficiencies then I want no part in it.

That said, when this team clicks together they can play really well, and I'm looking forward to the rest of this season and the postseason. I think St. Johns will give us a chance to get our legs back under us, and the Wake game after will be a chance to come out and make a statement.

jipops
02-15-2009, 10:06 PM
Look, I appreciate the sentiment, and I'm really glad we have this group of guys, but there is nothing wrong with wishing you had more talent. Going to Duke doesn't make them the best kids ever. There are other kids on other teams right now that have more character and talent than some of the guys on our team. And there is nothing wrong with not having the best guys, just like there is nothing wrong with the people that didn't choose Duke.

Wishing there were more talent or better performance from your team doesn't make you a bad fan. Get over yourself.

It doesn't appear you really understood what I was saying. But for the sake of this thread, it's veering off-topic anyways.

We're still 7-4 in the conference. I big win over WF could change the outlook of a lot of things. No sense in NOT being optimistic.

The1Bluedevil
02-15-2009, 10:07 PM
I am sad.

The pessimist in me says:

Let's stay afloat until Chapel Hill. Then, let's beat Carolina and win the ACC Championship. How we finish this regular season and ACC tourney seems to be more important this year than any in the recent past.

The optimist in me says:

Every game is an opportunity to turn it around. We can go on a big run starting @SJ

The pessismist in me says:

What is going to be any different next year?

The optimist in me says:

I love Duke basketball and trust the best coach in the best sport to figure it out.

eddiehaskell
02-15-2009, 10:11 PM
Carolina will not lose another ACC game this year... tonight was the last chance. They have 2 more road games and 3 home games and will finish 5-0. They will have won 14 straight ACC games and Duke will finish 10-6. This is so frustrating, but I believe that it is going to be true.You might be right. I was hoping this game or the last game would be Duke's final push into post season play. I figured a win against BC and SJU would set up an epic rematch against WF at Cameron. A win in that game could have inched us very close to a likely 2 seed in the tourney. If things don't change, we could go into the tournament as a 5 or 6 seed - the level of competition goes up significantly compared to say a 3 seed. If UNC only loses 1 or 2 games before the tournament they probably go in as a #1 and have a cake walk up to the sweet 16 or elite 8. :mad:

BlueintheFace
02-15-2009, 10:13 PM
..... ooooooooh boy.

I don't have the time to break this baby down. Wait, yes I do.


I'd play EW and Miles more the rest of this season

How much more? What makes you think they deserve the minutes? The practices you have seen? You want to completely change the identity of this team in the middle of february?


1. We need them to gain experience for next season when their contributions will be more important (especially if G is gone).

You are already looking towards next season? We still can be a good team and accomplish some great things this year... Buck up Kid. Plus, I think Paulus and McClure might not be big fans of your logic... K either.


2. We need them to play more so they don't transfer, especially EW.

Why in the world would he transfer? He is practically guaranteed increased minutes next year with Paulus leaving. Do you have any reason to believe he is going to transfer? Ego Issues? Connections to other schools? Anything at all?


I'm not seeing much out of this team that makes me think they're better than last year, but its an awful lot like 2007, which means we run the risk of becoming the highlight of some mediocre team who seldom gets to the tourney. Id rather not go at all than have VCU happen again.

What a terrible terrible attitude for a fan. If there is a possibility that this team might not meet your expectations then you propose that we just play the younger kids... better luck next year? DUDE, it is February 15th!!!!


There are no answers on this team for this year, but there is a lot of potential for next season.

No answers for what? As in, no future all-stars to carry the team to a title? Uhhhhh, how many teams have "answers"? What the hell are your actual expectations? At the beginning of the season, what did you see this team doing? IT ISN'T EVEN MARCH YET!!!

Look at your Calendar and change your attitude.

devildownunder
02-15-2009, 10:22 PM
See this is where you are WRONG. We've done GREAT things with LESS talent. It doesn't matter who's out there if the team plays together, communicates, and makes plays. Just ask UNLV.

Wishing for more talent is a WASTE of time b/c it's not gonna happen until the next season - at which point you'll already be looking for more talent.

I can remember when people criticized Shelden and Boozer - now we WISH they were here. But they are gone - get over it.

I can't say wishing makes you a bad fan but being knowledgeable, enjoying the game, and being able to adequately critique the team after a WIN or LOSS definitely might make you a BETTER fan.

I just want to get a clarification here. You're not suggesting that this year's team is more talented than the 1991 squad that beat unlv on the way to a NC, are you?

Newton_14
02-15-2009, 10:26 PM
[FONT="Arial"]

...
One other thing in terms of the rotation and depth: K has established that this team is at least 8-deep, and when EWill and Plumlee come in, it can go 10-deep. I'm disappointed like others are than EWill and Plumlee haven't been able to come in as freshman and make significant contributions (to say nothing of Czyz, who has barely played at all this year). I just don't think that we can expect any of the freshman this year to turn into impact performers down the line since they haven't brought much to the table this year. They may turn into solid players in the future, but expecting them to be stars may be a bit much. However, for those that want EWill and Plumlee to play, who do you want them to take minutes from? K isn't just going to throw them out there for nothing, we all pretty much know the rotation isn't going to expand at this time.

One last comment: I know that a bunch of us really wish that Zoubek could give the team more on both ends of the floor. His size can be effective at the defensive end, but he's really hurt by his lack of foot speed. Exhibit A is where he got screened again tonight and his guy got an alley-oop behind him, just like Hansbrough did on Wednesday night. On offense, I just don't think that anyone can expect Zoubek to score much because he spends most of his time on the offensive end looking to set screens for other guys, even when he's on the block! When he does post up, he barely gets the ball thrown to him as well. Of course, when he's on the court he's probably the 4th option at best, but to get much out of him at the offensive end for the rest of this season probably isn't going to happen.

So, just a couple of points. First regarding our freshman. In games like tonight, Plumlee could have gotten some of the minutes at the 5 tonight that were given to Zoubs, Dave, and Kyle. There was on stretch where we went small and Kyle played the 5. Would have been nice to see Plumlee inserted there and leave Kyle at the 4. Plumlee is a good enough player to get minutes in every game.

With Jon, Greg, and Nolan all struggling tonight, there would have been no harm in giving Eliot some of the 2 guard minutes in place of one of those 3. Eliot is also a good enough player that he should get some minutes in each game.

Both the holes and the deacs give equal or lesser players minutes in every game. Is Larry Drew III a better player than Eliot? Drew gets minutes in every single game be it a win or loss or blowout or close, and he plays in both halves. Is Tony Woods a superior player to Plumlee? Woods gets minutes in every game.

All I am saying is you are not going to hurt anything by giving Eliot and Miles at least 4 or 5 minutes in the first half to see if they respond well. And with some of the guys ahead of them struggling a little bit, it certainly would not hurt those guys to sit and watch a few extra minutes. Yes both Eliot and Miles have had games where they made freshman mistakes, but they both have also had times where they peformed well. Eliot played well at times in both games in the New York tourney against quality opponents. Miles had good stints in the early part of the season, and also played admirably in the Wake and Georgetown game.

With the losses now piling up, I just think there is no harm in giving these 2 guys minutes in every game.

My other point is regarding Zoubs. We make little to no effort anymore to try to get him posted deep on the block and try to get him the ball in a position to score. There are games (tonight being one of them) when it would be a good idea to try that. Against BC's interior defense, Zoubs could have possibly done good things if we had tried. There are obviously games where that is just not an option and he would struggle. But against teams like BC we do need to try to get points there.

FireOgilvie
02-15-2009, 10:37 PM
Boston College has 3 freshmen, 7 sophomores, 1 junior, and 1 senior on their team. Trapani is a poor man's Singler and Rice is legit, but I'm surprised at how this one turned out.

I thought Zoubek had a pretty good game in his 8 minutes. I would've liked to see more of him in the 2nd half. He could be very effective in a zone defense with Paulus on the court. As well as Lance played today, he just doesn't have the defensive impact that Zoubek can bring with his size.

I would love to see Coach K make more in-game adjustments to maximize our strengths. For example, we all know Zoubek is slow, so why have him play man-to-man and get stuck guarding a quicker man 20 feet from the basket? This happens way too often and Z gets pulled immediately when it does, usually to never return (see BC and UNC).

_Gary
02-15-2009, 10:42 PM
Interesting. Before the game today I felt a sense of calm. I read Jumbo's Phase IV and really thought the points were right on, but even more importantly I thought we could improve on the points mentioned. Yep, even in spite of all the evidence to the contrary I had a rare (for me) feeling of optimism. Then the game came and went. Now... I'm just numb. No longer do I feel optimistic. But neither am I mad. I just have a sad resignation about me at this point. We will see the same type of meltdown the rest of the way, with a few bright spots mixed in just to keep the faith of some higher than it probably should be. But ultimately, this season will almost assuredly mirror what we've seen the last few years.

I said it earlier in the week - we have to beat BC or we will tailspin. I can't back off that now. I'm stopping just short of saying the last nail has been hammered into the coffin. I'll reserve that for the WF game. If we can't find a way to beat them at home, then we are truly toast for the rest of the season.

I feel so bad for this team. And I'm scratching my head as to what is happening at this point. It's probably just as simple as us not having the horses we need to in order to contend. That's probably what it's all about. No solid PG and no solid inside presence on either end of the court. I'm not sure we need analyze this any further.

Just my two cents. :(

Wheat/"/"/"
02-15-2009, 10:48 PM
It was a tough loss on the road in the ACC, to a good team that shot very well. Your team is not done winning games this year.

This is not the dominate team that many would like to see, but it is your team. Sometimes it's hard to just enjoy them and support them and take it as it comes.

I've read through all the post game thoughts and saw only one that almost addressed what I think is the fundamental issue here.

It's not at the point. It's not at the 2g. It's not at the small forward.

Day in, day out, the best basketball teams play inside out, not outside in. Establishing a dominate post game, both offensively and defensively opens up the game to the wings.

Players that can catch the ball close to the basket have higher shooting %'s, cause the opposition more problems. Good inside guys get more rebounds and blocks. Hot shooting nights are fun to watch, but the %'s usually catch up with teams that rely too much on outside shooting.
Big games can be won without strong inside play, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

Your post guys getting any time are Zubek, Thomas and McClure. Singler is there some by default, but he's much better at SF. Thomas is improving, but has strength issues and lacks offensive moves. Nobody in the ACC is making defensive adjustments worrying about these guys down low. It is what it is however this year.

The best teams in the country are UCONN,UNC,Oklahoma and Pitt, IMO.
See any similarities in those teams?
Next time you see one of them play, mentally note how often a play is started and finished with a player catching the ball, well inside the foul line, with his back to the basket.
Now think of how many times do you see a Duke player post somebody up...back them down for a score?

The best Duke teams had that guy.

So you don't have a top 5 team in the country. You do still have a very dangerous team that I can assure you nobody looks forward to playing.

Bay Area Duke Fan
02-15-2009, 10:49 PM
The pattern in recent years has been that Duke starts out great, often rises to #1 (or close) in the polls, and then starts fading in February. While other teams improve as the season progresses, Duke seems to perform better earlier in the season. The talent is there .... if you accept that McDonalds AAs are talented (Duke has had plenty of them).

It seems that many posters are placing the blame for the recent losses on the players. Maybe a major part of the problem actually is the coaching staff.

Maybe Coach K has become better suited in recent years to build and coach the USA National Team. Maybe the lack of a big guy coach (who actually played 4 or 5) is really a problem. Maybe we miss Johnny Dawkins this year. Maybe Coach K has become too busy with his many outside activities and doesn't have the energy or passion of prior years. A good coaching staff with talented players generally builds a team that improves as the season goes on. That was certainly the case with Duke teams earlier in the K era.

What has happened the last five years?

I've been a great fan of Coach K and Duke for many years. But I'm starting to wonder whether K's better years as a college coach are in the past. I hope that I'm wrong and that this coaching staff and its team can pull together and finish the season on a high note.

The1Bluedevil
02-15-2009, 10:55 PM
Watching Duke two years in a row struggle without a post threat makes me appreciate what Ben Howland did even more. Going to two final fours in a row with no post threat to speak of is quite remarkable.

Kewlswim
02-15-2009, 10:57 PM
Hi,

All Duke fans are disappointed by the loss to BC. Congratulations Eagles, I hope we get the chance to return the favor at the ACC Tournament. If the Devils were to run the table and win the ACC tournament they would still probably get a number one seed. Though seeds aren't as important as how a team is playing. A number one seed with no confidence isn't going too far in the tournament.

I think the Devils aren't playing as well because they have lost their confidence. Why? Who knows? They could find it just as quickly as they lost it! I think it could be as "simple" as lack of communication or players not trusting one another as they were a few weeks back. Coach Krzyzewski has an Olympic Gold Medal and three NCAA championships to his name. I feel confident he, along with the coaching staff, will figure out what needs tweaking.

Bashing a player is not going to get his confidence back. Quite the opposite. We need to get that killer instinct back. I think we could be a sleeping giant. I remember Coach K once telling me that no matter how much I would like the Devils to win, he wants them to win more. A man as competitive as Coach K is not going to sit idly by as losses pile up. He is going to work hard until this is figured out and the ship is righted.

GO DUKE!

FireOgilvie
02-15-2009, 11:01 PM
It was a tough loss on the road in the ACC, to a good team that shot very well. Your team is not done winning games this year.

This is not the dominate team that many would like to see, but it is your team. Sometimes it's hard to just enjoy them and support them and take it as it comes.

I've read through all the post game thoughts and saw only one that almost addressed what I think is the fundamental issue here.

It's not at the point. It's not at the 2g. It's not at the small forward.

Day in, day out, the best basketball teams play inside out, not outside in. Establishing a dominate post game, both offensively and defensively opens up the game to the wings.

Players that can catch the ball close to the basket have higher shooting %'s, cause the opposition more problems. Good inside guys get more rebounds and blocks. Hot shooting nights are fun to watch, but the %'s usually catch up with teams that rely too much on outside shooting.
Big games can be won without strong inside play, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

Your post guys getting any time are Zubek, Thomas and McClure. Singler is there some by default, but he's much better at SF. Thomas is improving, but has strength issues and lacks offensive moves. Nobody in the ACC is making defensive adjustments worrying about these guys down low. It is what it is however this year.

The best teams in the country are UCONN,UNC,Oklahoma and Pitt, IMO.
See any similarities in those teams?
Next time you see one of them play, mentally note how often a play is started and finished with a player catching the ball, well inside the foul line, with his back to the basket.
Now think of how many times do you see a Duke player post somebody up...back them down for a score?

The best Duke teams had that guy.

So you don't have a top 5 team in the country. You do still have a very dangerous team that I can assure you nobody looks forward to playing.

I completely agree about the importance of the 5. You are right about that one.

Also, it's dominaNt. Eddiehaskell, that includes you.

DU Band Prez 88
02-15-2009, 11:07 PM
Carolina will not lose another ACC game this year... tonight was the last chance. They have 2 more road games and 3 home games and will finish 5-0. They will have won 14 straight ACC games and Duke will finish 10-6. This is so frustrating, but I believe that it is going to be true.

We will win at UNC.

eddiehaskell
02-15-2009, 11:08 PM
I'll reserve that for the WF game. If we can't find a way to beat them at home, then we are truly toast for the rest of the season.I want to beat Carolina in the worst way, but I guess I could be happy with competitive performances in both games (i.e. a chance to win near the end). Add to that wins in at least 3 of the other 4 games and I'll be decently optimistic going into the ACC tourney @ 24-7 or 23-8. :o

If I see another Clemson type of performance I'll need some prozac. :)

DU Band Prez 88
02-15-2009, 11:08 PM
You might be right. I was hoping this game or the last game would be Duke's final push into post season play. I figured a win against BC and SJU would set up an epic rematch against WF at Cameron. A win in that game could have inched us very close to a likely 2 seed in the tourney. If things don't change, we could go into the tournament as a 5 or 6 seed - the level of competition goes up significantly compared to say a 3 seed. If UNC only loses 1 or 2 games before the tournament they probably go in as a #1 and have a cake walk up to the sweet 16 or elite 8. :mad:

We will beat Wake Forest next weekend.

DU Band Prez 88
02-15-2009, 11:09 PM
I want to beat Carolina in the worst way, but I guess I could be happy with competitive performances in both games (i.e. a chance to win near the end). Add to that wins in at least 3 of the other 4 games and I'll be decently optimistic going into the ACC tourney @ 24-7 or 23-8. :o

If I see another Clemson type of performance I'll need some prozac. :)

We all want to beat Carolina in the worst way. We will win at the Dean Dome.

Surfsideron
02-15-2009, 11:15 PM
Lost the game in the last 2 minutes of the first half...



I agree. We had a 13 point lead with about 75 seconds left and got burned for 8 points with no answer.

I can't get upset with what happened tonight. Yes we had a few bad turnovers but so did they.....part of the game. The guys shot reasonably well and you have to give props to Rice. Paulus isn't the only guy he burned. I would have liked to have seen McClure on him the entire second half but I don't believe he covered him at all in that half.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-15-2009, 11:16 PM
Also, it's dominaNt. Eddiehaskell, that includes you.

I stand corrected. I'm sometimes like a HS kid. I know better, but that doesn't mean I will always do better.

eddiehaskell
02-15-2009, 11:17 PM
Also, it's dominaNt. Eddiehaskell, that includes you.That's what you get for not reading your reply and letting spell check put in whatever it thinks you meant to spell. :o

jipops
02-15-2009, 11:18 PM
It was a tough loss on the road in the ACC, to a good team that shot very well. Your team is not done winning games this year.

This is not the dominate team that many would like to see, but it is your team. Sometimes it's hard to just enjoy them and support them and take it as it comes.

I've read through all the post game thoughts and saw only one that almost addressed what I think is the fundamental issue here.

It's not at the point. It's not at the 2g. It's not at the small forward.

Day in, day out, the best basketball teams play inside out, not outside in. Establishing a dominate post game, both offensively and defensively opens up the game to the wings.

Players that can catch the ball close to the basket have higher shooting %'s, cause the opposition more problems. Good inside guys get more rebounds and blocks. Hot shooting nights are fun to watch, but the %'s usually catch up with teams that rely too much on outside shooting.
Big games can be won without strong inside play, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

Your post guys getting any time are Zubek, Thomas and McClure. Singler is there some by default, but he's much better at SF. Thomas is improving, but has strength issues and lacks offensive moves. Nobody in the ACC is making defensive adjustments worrying about these guys down low. It is what it is however this year.

The best teams in the country are UCONN,UNC,Oklahoma and Pitt, IMO.
See any similarities in those teams?
Next time you see one of them play, mentally note how often a play is started and finished with a player catching the ball, well inside the foul line, with his back to the basket.
Now think of how many times do you see a Duke player post somebody up...back them down for a score?

The best Duke teams had that guy.

So you don't have a top 5 team in the country. You do still have a very dangerous team that I can assure you nobody looks forward to playing.

'91 and '92 didn't exactly have that "back them down for a score" guy. Neither did '86.

I think it has long been acknowledged that Duke doesn't have that guy this year, and hasn't had it in awhile. That simply hasn't been an option. So the best thing has been to look toward available or potential options, the perimeter has been thought to be one of those. The top teams all happen to have dominant low-post options. They also happen to have very good balance, not exactly unusual for the elite.

FerryFor50
02-15-2009, 11:21 PM
'91 and '92 didn't exactly have that "back them down for a score" guy. Neither did '86.

I think it has long been acknowledged that Duke doesn't have that guy this year, and hasn't had it in awhile. That simply hasn't been an option. So the best thing has been to look toward available or potential options, the perimeter has been thought to be one of those. The top teams all happen to have dominant low-post options. They also happen to have very good balance, not exactly unusual for the elite.

I think we can all agree the game has changed substantially since 91/92.

RelativeWays
02-15-2009, 11:21 PM
..... ooooooooh boy.

I don't have the time to break this baby down. Wait, yes I do.



How much more? What makes you think they deserve the minutes? The practices you have seen? You want to completely change the identity of this team in the middle of february?

Yet Greg and Nolan have been playing poorly as well, they haven't exactly been playing mistake free ball either. And I'm not asking for them to lose their starting job. This common excuse of "this player hasn't been playing well enough to play" sort of rings hollow when the ones who are playing are struggling themselves.



You are already looking towards next season? We still can be a good team and accomplish some great things this year... Buck up Kid. Plus, I think Paulus and McClure might not be big fans of your logic... K either.

I'm looking towards the bigger picture of having our program rebound in the next years. You've seemed to mistaken me for a quitter. Why is it people who post things like "Guys, it wasn't like we were going to win 30+ games and the championship" aren't held accountable yet If I've lowered my expectations on this team from what I've seen in the past 2 weeks, thats somehow worse. I didn't say we should throw the season.




Why in the world would he transfer? He is practically guaranteed increased minutes next year with Paulus leaving. Do you have any reason to believe he is going to transfer? Ego Issues? Connections to other schools? Anything at all?

I have no idea, but thats not new ground here. I'm just hoping he doesn't find his current PT indicative of his future and decide to leave. I made no hint that I had inside info that he would leave. I'm just hoping he sees no reason to. I think he can be a great player for us




What a terrible terrible attitude for a fan. If there is a possibility that this team might not meet your expectations then you propose that we just play the younger kids... better luck next year? DUDE, it is February 15th!!!!

No I propose we play the younger kids so they get experienced and are more prepared to make the team better. The post season starts in less than 3 weeks and we have 6 games left. Its my personal opinion that this team is not built for a long post season run, thats not being pessimistic, just realistic. Maybe you're seeing something different that leads you to a different conclusion. Again, the precedent has been set, one could argue since 05 we've struggled late in the season. We're not breaking new ground




No answers for what? As in, no future all-stars to carry the team to a title? Uhhhhh, how many teams have "answers"? What the hell are your actual expectations? At the beginning of the season, what did you see this team doing? IT ISN'T EVEN MARCH YET!!!

See this is what I'm talking about, you question my outlook while asking what I expected at the beginning of the season. I think my current expectations are realistic. I was not expecting a title( NCAA or ACC), I was hoping for a run to the second weekend of the tourney and I was hoping that this team would have some improvement over last year. This team is not better than last years team and I do not expect it to make it past the 1st weekend of the tourney. Keep in mind I thought last season was pretty damn good despite the loss to WVU. I don't see this year mirroring that.


Look at your Calendar and change your attitude.

there are 6 regular season games left, a team thats struggled a good deal for two weeks prior and was unable to rebound following an emotional loss to their rival. My attitude is appropriate given the circumstances.

FireOgilvie
02-15-2009, 11:26 PM
I agree. We had a 13 point lead with about 75 seconds left and got burned for 8 points with no answer.

I can't get upset with what happened tonight. Yes we had a few bad turnovers but so did they.....part of the game. The guys shot reasonably well and you have to give props to Rice. Paulus isn't the only guy he burned. I would have liked to have seen McClure on him the entire second half but I don't believe he covered him at all in that half.

McClure is a great on-the-ball defender against just about everyone except quick point guards and big centers. We really have no one on the team except Nolan (when he doesn't play like he did tonight) that can guard quick PGs.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-15-2009, 11:36 PM
'91 and '92 didn't exactly have that "back them down for a score" guy. Neither did '86.

I think it has long been acknowledged that Duke doesn't have that guy this year, and hasn't had it in awhile. That simply hasn't been an option. So the best thing has been to look toward available or potential options, the perimeter has been thought to be one of those. The top teams all happen to have dominant low-post options. They also happen to have very good balance, not exactly unusual for the elite.

My memory may be a little hazy on those teams, but I recall Laettner having a pretty strong post game. (Outside too which is why he was so tough).

Just did a quick check, Laettner shot 57.5% and 232 foul shots in the '91-92 season. Can anybody that has those stats not spend a lot of time in the post?

You are really testing me on '86 and had to look back to remind myself of the players, and that team might be the best arguement, but Alarie and Bilas were strong inside players for 20+ years ago.

Strong post play creates balance.

RelativeWays
02-15-2009, 11:41 PM
Neither Laettner nor Ferry were prototypical post players because they did have a longer outside shot and had a bit of finesse, but most of their points came within 10 feet of the basket or under, and they could rebound. Duke's most successful squads that I remember seeing always had a couple of guys who were either good or at least competent in the post position.

dukemsu
02-15-2009, 11:41 PM
My memory may be a little hazy on those teams, but I recall Laettner having a pretty strong post game. (Outside too which is why he was so tough).

Just did a quick check, Laettner shot 57.5% and 232 foul shots in the '91-92 season. Can anybody that has those stats not spend a lot of time in the post?

You are really testing me on '86 and had to look back to remind myself of the players, and that team might be the best arguement, but Alarie and Bilas were strong inside players for 20+ years ago.

Strong post play creates balance.

Laettner was far from a classic back to the basket post. Many of his points came from isolating one on one with slower posts (O'Neal, Montross, etc) and taking them off the dribble, which resulted in fouls and foul shots.

He rarely played in the same spot throughout a game, and depending on the situation would play outside, high post, or low.

Can't say as much about '86, as I was very young and did not see a lot of that team.

dukemsu

devildownunder
02-15-2009, 11:43 PM
I hear that. Honestly, I've long thought shutting down the board for 6 hours after every loss would be the way to go. 12 after a loss to UNC and 24 after the season-terminal loss.

I am being 100% sincere when I say that statements like this make me wonder what the people who run this board really want it to be and why.

No jokes here, no sarcasm, just honest bewilderment.

dukemsu
02-15-2009, 11:44 PM
Should have added this to my last post-the most prototypical post Duke has had in terms of both moves and back to the basket skills over the last 20 years was probably Boozer. Duke has often had post players with pretty varied skill sets who often played outside (Ferry was probably the most skilled in terms of range and passing ability).

dukemsu

DevilCastDownfromDurham
02-15-2009, 11:45 PM
Can we please never, EVER compare this team to 1991? That team had three jerseys in the rafters and some of the best role-players (Mr. Brian Davis, Mr. Thomas Hill I'm looking at you) in Duke history.

I understand that it's nice to stay positive and that college basketball sees a ton of upsets. But pretending that this is anything like a vintage Duke team is just setting yourself up for more nights like tonight where you are surprised and sad. It also breeds a lot of vitriol towards the players for not delivering what you expect. We are who we are and pretending otherwise doesn't lead to anything positive, IMO.

heyman25
02-15-2009, 11:51 PM
Time to face some hard truths. Our guys play hard and are exemplary student athletes, but we're simply not among the elite teams this year, and we haven't been for several years now. The lack of an interior defensive stopper has been a real shortcoming since the Landlord left, and we don't have the premiere point guard needed to ignite things on the offensive end and prevent 5-7 minute scoring droughts. I will cheer like heck for this team until the last buzzer sounds at the end of the last game, but I'm afraid the absence of top talent at the 1 and at the 5 points to another early exit in March.
Landlord did not have enough help. Shav was hurt most of that era. Recruiting needs to change.A great pont guard similar to Chris Duhon or Jason Williams is needed as well.Long and athletic have been missing for too long a time. Perhaps 2010 is the beginning of a new era for Duke BBall.

GoingFor#5
02-15-2009, 11:52 PM
I think the thing I miss the most from this and the teams for the last couple of years is the fire. Fire on the sidelines and Fire on the team when it was time to get going, change strategy, get players attention, get officials attention...whatever. Sometimes feels like you are watching an NBA team mid-season when winning or losing a specific game seems to make so little difference to the staff and players. The only player who seems to bring it emotionally with consistency is McClure. Everyone is working hard, but seem to have no emotion, no fun, no "hell-no" as someone else put it, or "hell-yes" with consistency. That leads to attention lapses. No way Scheyer doesn't move over to Rice on the long three pointer if Scheyer is on fire to win...and paying attention. Where is the fire?

I agree with this. Paulus brings the fire when he's on, but if he's struggling he obviously can't be expected to do that. We need a Shane.

SupaDave
02-15-2009, 11:55 PM
I am being 100% sincere when I say that statements like this make me wonder what the people who run this board really want it to be and why.

No jokes here, no sarcasm, just honest bewilderment.

Definitely not a gripe fest...

devildownunder
02-15-2009, 11:56 PM
Neither Laettner nor Ferry were prototypical post players because they did have a longer outside shot and had a bit of finesse, but most of their points came within 10 feet of the basket or under, and they could rebound. Duke's most successful squads that I remember seeing always had a couple of guys who were either good or at least competent in the post position.

that's correct, and it's disappointing to see people so desperate that they're trying to morph past Duke FF/NC squads into doughnut teams. Laettner, especially was an excellent low-post scorer, even though he was more than capable of playing facing the basket as well. All of K's teams from that era were more inside-out than the ones he has had recently. I think that says more about recent recruiting trends than it does about K's coaching philosophy, although he certainly has embraced the three-point shot more as his career has progressed. 1999-2002 were examples of championship-calibre teams that had lots of talent and also shot lots of 3s. But those teams also had Brand and Boozer in the post, Battier the lane and all over the floor and lead guards who could penetrate almost at will. They were loaded. It's unfair to compare those groups to this one.

jv001
02-15-2009, 11:57 PM
It has been said many times before--we are vulnerable to teams with great point guards. Both NC and BC killed us with dribble penetration. By contrast, we have been lacking this weapon for some time.

I'm with you in that quick point guards kill us. We have no answer. The closest stopper we have is Nolan and he's playing like he's scared to death. Jon's shooting has been pretty bad this year and I still wonder is he's hurt. His fg% is .389% and his 3point % is .375%. And it's been worse since ACC season began. When we had JOn, Kyle and Gerald playing well, we were pretty hard to beat, but since Jon's shooting has fallen off, no one else has stepped up. I would like to see Williams and Plumlee get some mins just to see if they would give us a shot in the arm. Go Duke!

DukeCO2009
02-15-2009, 11:57 PM
Here goes...:

1) Plumlee and EWill NEED. TO. PLAY. Zoubek has shown very little on the positive side for a good long while, and Scheyer appears to be getting tired out on the wing. I was really encouraged a few games ago when EWill was the first man off the bench, but since then he and Miles have seen about as much of the court as I have. Miles appears to be a more effective player than Zoubek in every aspect of the game save passing. The "but they're defensive liabilities" argument that I've heard a couple times around these parts doesn't cut it when the rest of the team is playing crappy D, too. Bottom line, both Miles and Elliot need to play.

2) As I said a few weeks ago in another thread, this team simply cannot afford a subpar defensive effort. Because our offense tends not to put up scores in the mid-80's, our defense has to be fantastic every night for us to beat above average teams. Think about carolina--if they don't score 85+, a lot of teams can beat them because the tarholes play below average offense. By contrast, carolina can survive another team putting up 85+ if its offense is clicking (see: Wednesday), just as Duke can survive a half or more of terrible offense if its defense is in top form (see: Florida State). Time to step up. As of late, our switching has been attrocious, and our help-side hasn't been much better. Anyone remember the play where Z got beat for the alley-oop? Totally out of position. That can't happen.

3) Lance is our starting center, and that's that. IMO he should have been all along. He's our most aggressive, best shooting, and most basketball-savvy 5-man, and it's not even close. I love Dave, but his lack of an offensive game makes him best suited to come off the bench and play WITH LT/Z/Miles, not in their place.

4) I think the demotion to the bench has really flustered Nolan. I'm of the mind that Greg should start, but I also think that our two PG's should roughly split time. Would also like to see Elliot come in to spell whichever is in the game and have Scheyer run the point some.

5) Speaking of Scheyer, he needs to shoot the ball less and drive more. Xavier and a few other games aside, he's been much more effective when he's driving, dishing, and getting fouled. As many pundits have been saying for 2+ years, he's a much better "scorer" than he is a "shooter". I've noticed that the three-ball from the corner--a shot he seems to get all the time--has recently become a particular Achilles Heel of his. Not saying he shouldn't fire if he's open, but he certainly needs to be more selective. When he drives to the hoop, he's playing to his greatest strength: his free-throw shooting. Driving also draws defenders, enabling guys like G, Kyle, and Greg to relocate for open threes.

6) The fact that we're fast becoming the Gerald and Kyle show is, to say the least, disconcerting. This reminds me of '05-'06. That year, we were the JJ and Shelden show; if one of them had an off-night, we were in serious jeopardy of losing (see: Georgetown--JJ dropped 40+ and Shelden had something like 2). As most of you know, both of those guys have their jerseys in the rafters. Kyle and Gerald aren't at that level yet, so even when they both play great the games will be close unless someone else steps up.

Yikes. Hopefully we'll turn this around. Our next six games aren't pretty--we've got FSU, Wake, and chapel hill. I can only take so much "Next Play" rhetoric: let's turn this ship around.

SupaDave
02-15-2009, 11:58 PM
Landlord did not have enough help. Shav was hurt most of that era. Recruiting needs to change.A great pont guard similar to Chris Duhon or Jason Williams is needed as well.Long and athletic have been missing for too long a time. Perhaps 2010 is the beginning of a new era for Duke BBall.

As opposed to WHAT era? I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. Did we magically become UVA or something?

jv001
02-15-2009, 11:59 PM
We will win at UNC.

Next year. Maybe.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-15-2009, 11:59 PM
Duke's most successful squads that I remember seeing always had a couple of guys who were either good or at least competent in the post position.

This.

Maybe I didn't express my thoughts that well when I used the example of a player backing down another player down low.
Duke needs much stronger inside play to step up to the top level. That was my point.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-16-2009, 12:05 AM
Next year. Maybe.

The '10 UNC inside game...
Deon Thompson at center. Ed Davis at PF. Zeller rotating in. John Henson on the wing. All big guys. Oh, and the Wear twins.

Just sayin' :)

gmorris22
02-16-2009, 12:08 AM
http://www.goduke.com/pdf4/378051.pdf?ATCLID=3671272&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Great shooting by BC, including Roche and Jackson off the bench. Nolan Smith is totally missing in action. In 19 minutes, he had 1 point, 1 rebound, 0 asst, 0 steals. Injury problems? Or confidence gone and game falling apart?
What was Greg's stats?

Dukefan03
02-16-2009, 12:08 AM
People are making this slump way too complicated. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that this Duke team (and you can throw last year's team in and the year before as well) is simply not as talented as the teams that we have grown accustomed to and spoiled by.

We have 1 NBA player (G) and 1 potential NBA player (Kyle). That's it. Carolina has at least 4 NBA first rounders as well as a guy like Davis who may make it one day, and maybe even throw Thomspon into that mix. This matters. We should not expect to beat UNC right now. We can overanalyze it to death and the basic conclusion is the same-UNC is a way more talented team.

The most striking thing about tonight (I was at the game) is that people assume we are SO much more talented than BC, but if you watch the game objectively, we aren't. We play harder and smarter and I think that we are better coached. But right now, I would rather have Rice and Trapani and Southern in our starting lineup over Lance, Paulus and Scheyer.

I still think that we can accomplish great things this year and we can go on a great run in March. However, I think people need to look at this team w/more realistic expectations.

eddiehaskell
02-16-2009, 12:13 AM
Laettner wasn't a typical big man, but he was 6'11 and put up 20 ppg/9 rpg. If I'm not mistaken he was also a pretty gritty defender. A player like that (or even a McRoberts or Cherokee Parks) could complete the current team. Laettner scored and rebounded more than our entire front court.

Bluedog
02-16-2009, 12:14 AM
This board is more depressing for me than perhaps the game itself. Everybody seems to be giving up on this season (and even next season!), throwing the players under the bus, questioning the players' hearts and Coach K's desire, and talking about how UNC is the greatest team to ever roam the Earth. It's ridiculous. Did we play poorly today? Yes. Are we going through a rough patch the last 6 games? Yes. Can we improve? Yes. I don't know if this team is going to make a first round exit or make the Final Four. But if we play to our capabilities, I believe in this team and think we can make some noise next month.

The posts that are especially ridiculous are those saying we don't have elite players and should give up on the team until 2010-11. In the ACC, we are second to UNC with elite recruits on our team....and third isn't even close. In fact, in the country, I'm fairly confident we are in the top three in total McD AA's. I think we're second in that as well. To say we don't have the personnel to accomplish great things is ridiculous, even if we don't have dominant players at the PG and in the post. Are there some positions we can improve on? Of course. This team isn't dominant in those positions, but can certainly hold their own.

Another thing I find completely ironic is how QUICKLY people turn on the team. About 2 weeks ago, there was a thread comparing this team to the 03-04 team, with the consensus being that this team is clearly better than the 05-06 team that won the ACC regular season championship, ACC tournament champion, and was ranked #1 in the country going into the tournament. I said that the 05-06 team was better than this team and people thought it was insane. The reasoning was that this team has multiple threats while 05-06 had only JJ and Shel. Now all of a suden people are acting like this team is the same as the 94-95 team and not even going to make the tournament. Our schedule the rest of the season is tough and I have confidence we can regroup and achieve great things. It's certainly not going to be easy and not a given, but I still believe in this players. This game is disappointing, for sure, but it's not the end of the world. And it doesn't suggest that Duke teams for the next three seasons are resigned to mediocrity.

A little perspective...This thread is worse than any other loss I can remember. Again, it's disappointing, but I'm not throwing these players under the bus (not now, net ever).

heyman25
02-16-2009, 12:15 AM
As opposed to WHAT era? I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. Did we magically become UVA or something?

No I think Duke is in 4th place in total NCAA wins. I think our recruiting is not where it should be.I know you can not predict a HS players college play. This is relatively a slow team that is sliding the wrong way for the third year in a row. Do you remember LSU game in the sweet 16? Do you remember UCONN in 04. Hey all I am saying some of Duke's scholarship players are a little lacking in the talent to win highly contested games. We aren't Virginia, but we can be better at Duke. Look at UCONN they are expected to be in a Final 4 just about every year. can't say the same about Duke lately.

DukeCO2009
02-16-2009, 12:15 AM
Laettner wasn't a typical big man, but he was 6'11 and put up 20 ppg/9 rpg. If I'm not mistaken he was also a pretty gritty defender. A player like that (or even a McRoberts or Cherokee Parks) could complete the current team. Laettner scored and rebounded more than our entire front court.

Do tell me what McRoberts showed you that leads you to believe he could complete this team. I'm all ears. IMO, he was talented but lazy; Duke was his road to the NBA and nothing more.

Dukefan03
02-16-2009, 12:18 AM
The posts that are especially ridiculous are those saying we don't have elite players and should give up on the team until 2010-11. In the ACC, we are second to UNC with elite recruits on our team....and third isn't even close. In fact, in the country, I'm fairly confident we are in the top three in total McD AA's. I think we're second in that as well. To say we don't have the personnel to accomplish great things is ridiculous, even if we don't have dominant players at the PG and in the post. Are there some positions we can improve on? Of course. This team isn't dominant in those positions, but can certainly hold their own.



I think that you are making a mistake in equating MCD AA's with elite talent. We have 2 elite college players. That's it. There wasn't one MCD's AA on the floor for BC tonight, but if you took truth serum you would admit that there are SEVERAL guys that you would swap straight up for guys on the Duke roster.

sivartrenrag
02-16-2009, 12:23 AM
Horrible game but I still love the guys and will support them 100%. My expectations have been sufficiently lowered, though.

I think it takes me a while after a loss (when I immediately think "season over," "crisis," "the fall of Duke basketball," etc) to step back and realize: these guys are my age, they're in college, and they're doing the best they can. I'll always support them, win or lose... as long as they aren't being lazy - and from what I can tell, they're still playing with heart.

That sentiment aside, I would love to see EW and MP1 get more time early in games. Singler appears to be visibly winded at the end of every game and I think an early rest would help him perform when it counts. And we're going to need those guys down the road, no matter who we recruit.

eddiehaskell
02-16-2009, 12:28 AM
Do tell me what McRoberts showed you that leads you to believe he could complete this team. I'm all ears. IMO, he was talented but lazy; Duke was his road to the NBA and nothing more.Hmm, I think a very athletic 6'10"/240lb guy that can put up 14-15 pts, 8-9 boards and 2-3 blocks would SIGNIFICANTLY help this team. When I say complete, I don't mean top-3. A lazy McRoberts was still a pretty good player.

Who would you rather have starting at center - McRoberts, Lance, Zoubek or McClure? Personally, I'll take McRoberts at 5 with Singler at 4.

Edit: I'd probably put McRoberts at 5, Lance/McClure at 4, Singler at 3, Hendo at 2 (since he is shooting better than Scheyer) and Greg/Nolan sharing the point. Then I would run Scheyer off the bench like he used to do. Yummy.

KandG
02-16-2009, 12:29 AM
Another person here who was at the game tonight. I had my kids at a college game for the first time, and for my daughter in particular it was a lot of fun -- she was amazed at the intensity. Of course, I would rather the game was a boring Duke blowout, but she got a kick out of an entertaining game, even though it ended poorly. And it was a first for her to see people rushing the floor.

I haven't watched Duke play in an intimate gym in a while, so it was interesting watching them play BC from the upper level -- you're still not that far, and you get a nice overhead view of the action while feeling close to the players.

The one thing that struck me once BC made that run at the end of the first half was how they almost always seemed to have an answer for Duke's defensive wrinkles. The turning point seemed to be when Rice got those two long rebounds from Paulus -- until then, Paulus had been having a good game defensively for the most part. When Nolan replaced him, it felt like our offense and defense dipped a bit, and when Paulus returned, he was not as sharp as he was in the first half.

As far as individuals, on TV I always wondered if Scheyer was playing with a little too much finesse and not seeking to draw contact enough as defenders have learned to get up on him more. At this game, I realized that Scheyer isn't afraid of contact, but refs don't call fouls on him -- he got mugged at least twice on drives or up-and-under jumpshots (and I don't like to complain about refs). He just doesn't seem to get the benefit of the doubt from the officials outside the paint, and even inside in many cases.

From the overhead view, I would watch Duke trap or apply pressure, and could see different scenarios for BC success -- thought to myself, BC can handle this if they go back door, or if Rice fakes the drive and kicks to the 3 point shooter, or if they swing the ball to a cutter along the baseline. But I'm accustomed to Duke playing strong enough defense to take away most options or disrupt them, and force turnovers. In the second half, the disruption was marginal.

Duke did manage to force 19 turnovers, but otherwise the back line of the defense seemed fairly soft because they were watching Rice so heavily. And despite this, we were in position to win the game toward the end, but we inexplicably lose Rice and give up the 3 pointer with 1:30 left -- I mean, Rice didn't even run around screens or get open in any special way, we just forgot about him somehow --just mindblowing. It just seemed like there were too many mental lapses like this in the second half, like we forgot how to play defense.

I like this team and like to remain optimistic, but there's no sugarcoating it -- this was a BAD loss. We're talented enough to beat teams like BC handily, even on the road, but somehow we've become a two man team, and while everybody likes to talk about our lack of post presence, good guard play would have won this game. Getting little production from the Paulus-Scheyer-Smith trio isn't going to cut it, and while I'm not buying into doomsday scenarios for the rest of the season, continued lackluster guard play makes those scenarios more plausible, I can't deny it.

Uncle Drew
02-16-2009, 12:42 AM
While I appreciate the note at the start to keep things civil, being an optimist about this Duke game, the forecast for the rest of the season and the next few seasons is not reading the writing on the wall.

The January peaks, February slides and March colapses can be blamed on a lot of events. Players left early or transfered. Hyped players never lived up to the hype. Project players haven't gotten better to the needed extent. And sought after players have decided to go elsewhere. Those who said Duke will be Duke, and Duke will be just fine after certain recruiting misses are being proved wrong. The Duke system is fine for the most part, but players play the game. It's great to have shooters, but a team with a glut of them doesn't make sense. Height is great, but muscle is just as important. Quickness on offense and defense is crucial. There were deficiencies on last years teams that once exposed led to the colapse. Because of recruiting glitches and lack of development those same problems were not truly fixed and here we are again.

If we are honest with ourselves as fans it's obvious to see what highly sought after recuits in highly rated years are capable of. (Singler & Henderson) And without singling anyone out you can see what highly rated recruits in avarage or down years are capable of, or what back up plan players when we didn't get player A are capable of. Lance played great today, perhaps the best I've seen him play at Duke. But those who said the Monroe miss wasn't a big deal were wrong. No, nothing can be done about it now, and it's true all we can do is look forward. But you throw him on this team to give it a genuine, dependable scoring and rebounding pressence inside and it's a different team.

Yeah Duke needs to stop taking so many three's, penetrate more and all the other things pointed out. But if inside play and dribble penetration is not a strong point it's hard to force the issue with personel when that isn't their strong point. Te truth is even with a player like Singler, recently his game had become outside oriented due to opposing traffic / height in the post. Duke is taking too many three's too early in the shot clock. But when you have a team with mostly finesse players and you play a team of power players you need at least a couple power players to fill roles on a team. Last years Duke team didn't have it, this one doesn't and it remains to be seen if next years or the year after that will. We're all Duke fans and we all want to see them do well. And we are the most spoiled fans in college basketball. But to act like things look bright for the rest of this year and immediate future in my opinion is sticking one's head in the sand and pretending things are sure to get better.

I'm not ready to write off the season or the program, I bleed Duke blue. But when does football season start again?

heyman25
02-16-2009, 12:47 AM
Another person here who was at the game tonight. I had my kids at a college game for the first time, and for my daughter in particular it was a lot of fun -- she was amazed at the intensity. Of course, I would rather the game was a boring Duke blowout, but she got a kick out of an entertaining game, even though it ended poorly. And it was a first for her to see people rushing the floor.

I haven't watched Duke play in an intimate gym in a while, so it was interesting watching them play BC from the upper level -- you're still not that far, and you get a nice overhead view of the action while feeling close to the players.

The one thing that struck me once BC made that run at the end of the first half was how they almost always seemed to have an answer for Duke's defensive wrinkles. The turning point seemed to be when Rice got those two long rebounds from Paulus -- until then, Paulus had been having a good game defensively for the most part. When Nolan replaced him, it felt like our offense and defense dipped a bit, and when Paulus returned, he was not as sharp as he was in the first half.

As far as individuals, on TV I always wondered if Scheyer was playing with a little too much finesse and not seeking to draw contact enough as defenders have learned to get up on him more. At this game, I realized that Scheyer isn't afraid of contact, but refs don't call fouls on him -- he got mugged at least twice on drives or up-and-under jumpshots (and I don't like to complain about refs). He just doesn't seem to get the benefit of the doubt from the officials outside the paint, and even inside in many cases.

From the overhead view, I would watch Duke trap or apply pressure, and could see different scenarios for BC success -- thought to myself, BC can handle this if they go back door, or if Rice fakes the drive and kicks to the 3 point shooter, or if they swing the ball to a cutter along the baseline. But I'm accustomed to Duke playing strong enough defense to take away most options or disrupt them, and force turnovers. In the second half, the disruption was marginal.

Duke did manage to force 19 turnovers, but otherwise the back line of the defense seemed fairly soft because they were watching Rice so heavily. And despite this, we were in position to win the game toward the end, but we inexplicably lose Rice and give up the 3 pointer with 1:30 left -- I mean, Rice didn't even run around screens or get open in any special way, we just forgot about him somehow --just mindblowing. It just seemed like there were too many mental lapses like this in the second half, like we forgot how to play defense.

I like this team and like to remain optimistic, but there's no sugarcoating it -- this was a BAD loss. We're talented enough to beat teams like BC handily, even on the road, but somehow we've become a two man team, and while everybody likes to talk about our lack of post presence, good guard play would have won this game. Getting little production from the Paulus-Scheyer-Smith trio isn't going to cut it, and while I'm not buying into doomsday scenarios for the rest of the season, continued lackluster guard play makes those scenarios more plausible, I can't deny it.

I agree. Great post.Duke has a great basketball tradition.I am not spoiled and will remain a Duke fan forever. I don't need to hear how great our guys are and what great student athletes they are. I know that. However I am pragmatic about what I see on the court. Our guard play was mediocre at best today. It has to be better for a good run in post season play.

devildownunder
02-16-2009, 12:50 AM
Laettner wasn't a typical big man, but he was 6'11 and put up 20 ppg/9 rpg. If I'm not mistaken he was also a pretty gritty defender. A player like that (or even a McRoberts or Cherokee Parks) could complete the current team. Laettner scored and rebounded more than our entire front court.

Laettner's low-post defense is one of the least-appreciated -- and most important -- parts of his game. Aaaaah, get me started on the big guy. Laettner was THE MAN!

eddiehaskell
02-16-2009, 12:52 AM
I still have the first two rounds of the NCAA tournament on my DVR - I'm going to watch it and see how comparable this team is to last year. I'm thinking I'll see a lot of similarities.

OldSchool
02-16-2009, 01:01 AM
It's a good think I'm not running this board, because if I were and if someone posted that they would rather have Tarhole players instead of our own, that would be their last post.

We have some damn fine young men wearing Duke blue, and they deserve the full support of the people on this board.

And stop moaning about "ooh, if only we had Greg Monroe" or "if only Patrick Patterson had deigned to come to our school."

It takes two to tango, if Duke wants a kid but that kid spurns our school, then I say to heck with them. I'm going to give my support to those young men who enrolled at my school and proudly wear the uniform.

Sandman
02-16-2009, 01:09 AM
I'm certainly not going to second guess K's choice of who to put on the court. However, it seems that whoever is on the court, the team has lost its confidence and is playing tentatively. Players are not demanding the ball for good shots nor are they in the opposing team's faces on defense. It appears that, especially on the road, we're playing "soft" (maybe with the exception of Thomas and McClure, who seem to understand their roles and try to execute them with intensity). Maybe the mental strain of a long, intense season is getting them down, but I sure hope the team snaps out of it before it's too late. BC lost to Harvard FCS!!! How can Tyler Roche perform like he did tonight against a team filled with highly recruited McDAAs?

devildownunder
02-16-2009, 01:10 AM
I agree. Great post.Duke has a great basketball tradition.I am not spoiled and will remain a Duke fan forever. I don't need to hear how great our guys are and what great student athletes they are. I know that. However I am pragmatic about what I see on the court. Our guard play was mediocre at best today. It has to be better for a good run in post season play.

I like that you focus on guard play because I think those problems are (slightly) easier to address than inside play, given that it's mid-February. Lance and Z's issues probably need a full offseason to show any improvement. Maybe, just maybe, Paulus and Scheyer can find their strokes and Nolan can get back to playing a bit better D this year. (that's based on what others on the board are saying about the BC game. I'm taking you guys' word for it on this one.)

shadowfax336
02-16-2009, 01:13 AM
Scheyer shooting
Home/Neutral:42.2%
Road:29.2%

Nolan Shooting
Home/Neutral: 45.6%
Road:34.0%

A/TO
Home/Neutral: 36-28
Road:6-17


Zoubek's numbers are more a season long decline than a home/road trend, but I'm convinced he's significantly worse on the road too, no matter what numbers say. I'd say there's your issue.

When 2 of our top 5 players vanish offensively when we go on the road, thats an issue. We've lost a home game to (probably/sadly) the best team in the country right now. And then we're 3-4 on the road. I submit that this is why. (Oh and the scary thing about Scheyers numbers? If you subtract the Michigan game, he's shooting 22.9% on the road (he was 7-11 in that game).
Crazy.

ncexnyc
02-16-2009, 01:21 AM
Lost the game in the last 2 minutes of the first half...


I was thinking exactly the same thing. What should have been a nice double digit lead after outplaying BC so badly, turned into a measly 5 point lead, with BC gaining some serious MO.

ice-9
02-16-2009, 01:30 AM
OK - just watched the game on the DVR. It's not as bad of a loss as I had expected it to be reading about the loss from the office.

We weren't jacking up shots anywhere near as badly as in our game against UNC. In fact, there were few rushed long shots. Most of the time, our guys tried to get some offensive movement before settling for iso plays for Henderson and Singler which worked reasonably well. Thomas I thought played an insane game; his tap-ins kept us in the game and he moved well.

We lost primarily because:

1. We allowed too much interior passing and had poor interior defense: because BC ran good plays, because we overplayed the outside and allowed back door cuts, and because some guys blew their assignments and/or didn't help quickly enough. I thought this was the main reason we lost our lead and our composure temporarily for a period of 10-15 minutes, but we tightened things up towards the end.

2. We allowed too much dribble penetration. It wasn't just Paulus' fault; Nolan didn't really do a good job either. BC also ran some switches that gave their penetrator a speed advantage. Again, we tightened things up towards the end.

3. We allowed too many easy baskets -- BC had fast breaks off turnovers and Duke missed shots that led to lay-ups. We need to do a better job getting back. But again we improved defensively towards the end.

4. Scheyer and Nolan are still shooting badly, and the fact that they shoot a decent percentage of the team's shots doesn't help.

5. Above all, BC made plays. We were really good for the first 18 minutes, and I thought we were pretty good in the last 8 of 9 minutes, especially our defense and the way we forced turnovers. But BC kept pace because they made so many offensive plays...from insane 3-pointers, floaters, backdoor cuts...BC looked really, really good offensively. (Or was really lucky, but given they also defeated UNC I'd like to think the former. Maybe streaky.)

So while I would vastly prefer a win, and because a win would do so much to quell talk about Duke fading again in March, this loss wasn't THAT bad. We had some issues, especially in 10-15 minutes to start the second half when we lost our lead, but overall we played a decent game.

KandG
02-16-2009, 01:37 AM
I agree. Great post.

However I am pragmatic about what I see on the court. Our guard play was mediocre at best today. It has to be better for a good run in post season play.

Thanks heyman! I agree with you too regarding the need for guard play to be much better for our post season chances to be better than "slim or none".

One other interesting note about being at the game -- I obviously knew about a few of the BC players, but haven't paid much attention to the team as a whole this year (and the local media gives them very little press, even with the victory over UNC earlier this year). Without announcers to tell me who to pay attention to, the one guy that really stood out once he entered the game was Reggie Jackson.

Even before he made all those baskets to shift the momentum to BC for good, even during our domination of most of the first half, you could just tell he was one of the Eagles that wasn't scared (or dependent on Rice to make things happen for him). I had no idea about him before the game, but his body language really told me he was going to be someone to pay attention to, the way he handled the ball and attacked. Unfortunately, I ended up being right...I was really impressed with him.

Uncle Drew
02-16-2009, 01:45 AM
It's a good think I'm not running this board, because if I were and if someone posted that they would rather have Tarhole players instead of our own, that would be their last post.

We have some damn fine young men wearing Duke blue, and they deserve the full support of the people on this board.

And stop moaning about "ooh, if only we had Greg Monroe" or "if only Patrick Patterson had deigned to come to our school."

It takes two to tango, if Duke wants a kid but that kid spurns our school, then I say to heck with them. I'm going to give my support to those young men who enrolled at my school and proudly wear the uniform.

I certainly wasn't saying oooh if we only had Monroe or Patterson, but if either of them were on this team it would be a different team. Just because a player chooses not to go to Duke doesn't mean the aren't one heck of a basketball player. And despite what some Duke alums might choose to believe going to another school (besides the one in Chapel Hill) doesn't make you a lesser human being.

This team has and will have my support until the final whistle of the final game blows this season. I hate that probably the best performance by Lance Thomas in a Duke uniform came in a loss, because it some how dulls the accomplisments. But I will say if you miss out on one guy with beef and strength you don't make plan B and C a player who is lean and has a finesse game.

If Coach Cutcliffe misses out on an offensive lineman he doesn't recruit a running back to take his place. I think the Duke staff has been caught off guard by players we thought would don Duke blue. And we are seeing the ripple effect of that (and other factors) this year just like we saw them last year. If this Duke team is playing as well as it can, if has reached it's peak and is as good as it will get so be it. I will still support them. But I don't see teamwork on the court and great improvement from player to player. Having superior talent makes up for deficiencies and this Duke team, just liek last year doesn't have it. Period.

calltheobvious
02-16-2009, 02:22 AM
Could someone with some early-January or pre-holiday footage take a look at Zoubek and see how he was running then, and compare it to his present gait?

Several times tonight he really looked like he was laboring as he tried to get down the floor. Maybe it's me just looking for something that isn't there, but if something is there, it might explain a lot.