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brianl
02-12-2009, 08:54 AM
I'm interested to see what people's take on Singler's elbow to Hansbrough at the beginning of the second half.

Singler's a great player, but frankly I thought it was intentional and just a notch above a "cheap shot." The technical was an appropriate call. While it wasn't a game deciding moment, it cut the lead in half. Plus, the 3 or 4 minute "group hug" didn't help in the game's flow already.

And while I don't know the kid personally, I don't remember in 4 years Hansbrough doing anything like that against a Duke player.

Matches
02-12-2009, 08:56 AM
It wasn't our finest moment - but as we speak I'm playing the world's tiniest violin for poor Hanstravel.

Wander
02-12-2009, 08:58 AM
I have no idea why people are saying this was a huge turning point in the game. We had an 8 point lead before it happened, and we had an 8 point lead again about one minute after it happened.

Fish80
02-12-2009, 09:03 AM
The elbow looked bad, but it's hard to know if it was intentional.

Singler was trying to pull the ball out of the pile, and if his hand slipped off of the ball, the elbow could have been accidental. We just don't know.

I applaud Tyler for showing restraint and handling it with dignity.

brumby041
02-12-2009, 09:04 AM
As I posted in the post-game thread (sorry - I don't know how to pull a post from another thread into this one), I disagree with the "intentional" argument. It looked to me like he kept going after the whistle to secure the ball and his arm slipped. Exacerbating the situation was yet another Emmy-award winning performance from Hans to draw attention to the contact. (Yes, Hans is good at that sort of thing. For example, consider the flop, I mean charge, that he drew on Paulus a few minutes later. Either GP is the strongest man alive, or Hans is looking for an acting career once he figures out that his histrionics won't work in the League. Minor contact from a 6', 200lb guy sent him FLYING 25 ft.):eek:

That said, the tech was the right call.
1. Elbow to the face = foul
2. Whistle had already blown for the jump ball.
3. Dead ball foul = T

[On a somewhat snarky note, I was waiting for Hans to jump up with tears in his eyes and his lower lip trembling like my 5 year old...ah well.]:D

BlueDevilJay
02-12-2009, 09:05 AM
I could see it as a turning point. From that point on, it seemed to me like we lost our momentum, and in the college game, momentum plays a huge role in a game, just ask EA Sports! :) Seriously though, I'm trying to figure out if it was intentional or not....Looked to me at one time like he was still trying to rake the ball out, 2nd look appeared like he did it on purpose. I've noticed alot more recently Singler getting a bit 'chippy' with some of the things he does on the court...has anyone else noticed this?

VAGentleman05
02-12-2009, 09:05 AM
I have no idea why people are saying this was a huge turning point in the game. We had an 8 point lead before it happened, and we had an 8 point lead again about one minute after it happened.

I agree that it wasn't really a game-changing moment. It was simply an extra personal on Singler (who wasn't really in foul trouble) and just 2 points for the Holes. Duke even got the ball back after the FTs on the alternating possession.

I do think it was a pretty dirty play, though. Guys in the ACC have been ejected for much less over the past couple years. In fact, this looked a lot more intentional to me than Henderson's hard foul on Hansbrough a couple years ago.

RepoMan
02-12-2009, 09:10 AM
There is no way we can know whether throwing the elbow was accidental or intentional. It simply is impossible to know what was in his mind.

In any event, even if it was intention, I very much doubt that the intent was to connect with face. He was trying to secure the ball.

Technical foul was the right call.

It was in no shape or form a turning point. The half had just started. I don't think it had any effect on emotion. There was no foul trouble issue.

I expect to be hearing from Heels at work momentarily, and I will be surprised if they are upset about it.

VAGentleman05
02-12-2009, 09:19 AM
There is no way we can know whether throwing the elbow was accidental or intentional. It simply is impossible to know what was in his mind.

In any event, even if it was intention, I very much doubt that the intent was to connect with face. He was trying to secure the ball.

Technical foul was the right call.


You're right that he didn't know he was going to hit anyone in the face, as he wasn't looking behind him. I think the problem was that this occurred a couple seconds after the whistle blew for the held ball. It's never acceptable to throw blind elbows behind your head, but it's not even helpful to do so after the play is over.

For the record, I think the technical was the right call as well. I'm not saying he should have been ejected; I just notice that others have been tossed for very similar incidents.

longtimefan
02-12-2009, 09:35 AM
You're right that he didn't know he was going to hit anyone in the face, as he wasn't looking behind him. I think the problem was that this occurred a couple seconds after the whistle blew for the held ball. It's never acceptable to throw blind elbows behind your head, but it's not even helpful to do so after the play is over.

For the record, I think the technical was the right call as well. I'm not saying he should have been ejected; I just notice that others have been tossed for very similar incidents.
I think ejections also may be based on what the player says right after and during or before it occurs.if there was no indication of him being aggressive they may have not viewed it that way .plus his back was turned.

ForeverBlowingBubbles
02-12-2009, 09:37 AM
Looked to me like he threw a bow with no regard or care for what exactly he was making contact with... So saying he "didn't mean to make contact with someones face" isn't the best of arguments if you are saying he threw the elbow on purpose.

Kyles a human - he plays as hard as anyone - and when your playing as hard as he does people knock you around - you get mad - and sometimes you retaliate when you probably shouldn't.

Matches
02-12-2009, 09:38 AM
For the record, I think the technical was the right call as well. I'm not saying he should have been ejected; I just notice that others have been tossed for very similar incidents.

Including the Miami player whose name I can't remember, against us last weekend.

allenmurray
02-12-2009, 09:42 AM
It's never acceptable to throw blind elbows behind your head, but it's not even helpful to do so after the play is over.

For the record, I think the technical was the right call as well. I'm not saying he should have been ejected; I just notice that others have been tossed for very similar incidents.

That is my understanding - that since the foul occurred in a dead ball situation it was ruled a technical. Had the officials considered it an purposeful elbow to the face it either would have been an intentional or a flagrant or an ejection (or some combination thereof).

Aziggazoomba
02-12-2009, 09:47 AM
A Tar Heel here. Apologies for the trespass.

I was curious to see what Duke folks' impressions of The Elbow were, and I'm impressed to see the fairness and objectivity in the part of most of the posters on this topic.

I agreed with K---your guys played a really good game (and I really thought the Heels were in trouble when the lead was cut to 8 and it started raining 3's). That was a (typically) nice comeback attempt (and the Raycom announcers called it WAY too soon).

Gotta make one last point---can't help it. One of you folks ragged on Hansbrough for dramatizing the effect of The Elbow. Come on! That was hardly any reaction at all---I think your objectivity is badly impaired. And if you want to talk about flopping/acting? I don't think you really want to go there, do you?

Anyway, good game and I'm sure the rematch in Chapel Hill will be another one for the ages.

Go Heels.

allenmurray
02-12-2009, 09:51 AM
Gotta make one last point---can't help it. One of you folks ragged on Hansbrough for dramatizing the effect of The Elbow. Come on! That was hardly any reaction at all---I think your objectivity is badly impaired. And if you want to talk about flopping/acting? I don't think you really want to go there, do you?

He did not dramatize the effect of the elbow - an elbow to the face hurts.

but either Hansbrough is very strong (what UNC folks usually say about him) or he is not. He is 6"9" and about 260 lbs. If having Greg Paulus run into you at less than full speed causes you to fall to the floor and slide 20 feet either you are not very big and strong, or you are acting. You can't have it both ways.

Highlander
02-12-2009, 09:56 AM
A Tar Heel here. Apologies for the trespass.

I was curious to see what Duke folks' impressions of The Elbow were, and I'm impressed to see the fairness and objectivity in the part of most of the posters on this topic.

I agreed with K---your guys played a really good game (and I really thought the Heels were in trouble when the lead was cut to 8 and it started raining 3's). That was a (typically) nice comeback attempt (and the Raycom announcers called it WAY too soon).

Gotta make one last point---can't help it. One of you folks ragged on Hansbrough for dramatizing the effect of The Elbow. Come on! That was hardly any reaction at all---I think your objectivity is badly impaired. And if you want to talk about flopping/acting? I don't think you really want to go there, do you?

Anyway, good game and I'm sure the rematch in Chapel Hill will be another one for the ages.

Go Heels.

Welcome to the boards. Hope you'll stay and play nice like a lot of the other fans who post here.

Actually, I think the flop was a very good thing for Duke fans, and I want to thank Hansbrough for his performance last night. As a result, UNC fans have now lost any ability to criticize Duke for taking flops on the charge for the immediate future IMO. After having to listen to it for years, it's going to be rather refreshing to respond to any catcalls by calling out one of their own.

We do it, but last night shows that you guys now do it too. You know what they say about imitation...

As for dramatizing the effects of the elbow, I don't think he did, but given his acting prowise on drawing charges he's certainly capable.

banneheim
02-12-2009, 09:56 AM
I think Singler made the mistake, you just don't put your team in that situation. I know emotions run high, but part of being a mature player, you control those emotions. I felt it did have an impact on the game and flow. You pick up a personal foul, game is stopped and other team gets two points, refs call it more closely, etc....Let's learn and move on....

VAGentleman05
02-12-2009, 09:57 AM
Including the Miami player whose name I can't remember, against us last weekend.

DeQuan Jones. That's one of the cases I had in mind, but I didn't want to incur too much wrath here. I agree with the Tar Heel, though: the analysis around here is impressively objective. Last night was the first time I actually made it to a Duke/UNC game in Cameron (#34 in the walk-up line, baby!), and I was very impressed with the game that Duke played for the first 30+ minutes. Lawson and UNC were just unbeatable down the stretch.

whereinthehellami
02-12-2009, 10:00 AM
The elbow was intentional but hitting the face wasn't. Hanny was all over him from behind. I love that Singler has a nasty streak and that he doesn't back down to anyone. But he has to be smarter and pick his spots better. Teams are going to start baiting him.

Master Shake
02-12-2009, 10:00 AM
I consider myself as objective a Duke fan as they come (respect Carolina, think Dantay Jones' on the court behavior was uncool, etc.) but the elbow didn't look intentional at all to me. Based on the replays, looked to me like he was trying to get power to rip the ball out and his hand slipped off/missed the ball.

brumby041
02-12-2009, 10:01 AM
A Tar Heel here. Apologies for the trespass.

I was curious to see what Duke folks' impressions of The Elbow were, and I'm impressed to see the fairness and objectivity in the part of most of the posters on this topic.

I agreed with K---your guys played a really good game (and I really thought the Heels were in trouble when the lead was cut to 8 and it started raining 3's). That was a (typically) nice comeback attempt (and the Raycom announcers called it WAY too soon).

Gotta make one last point---can't help it. One of you folks ragged on Hansbrough for dramatizing the effect of The Elbow. Come on! That was hardly any reaction at all---I think your objectivity is badly impaired. And if you want to talk about flopping/acting? I don't think you really want to go there, do you?
Anyway, good game and I'm sure the rematch in Chapel Hill will be another one for the ages.

Go Heels.

Azigga - thanks for the post. I'm the poster that you referenced. In retrospect, you make a good point about his level of reaction. Compared to his usual histrionics, his reaction was somewhat muted. I interpreted that to show that the contact was fairly minor.
re: my objectivity - granted. I bleed Duke Blue, and never claimed to be "objective". I think that I'm at least as objective as the 'Heel fans that claimed that Henderson was out to get Hansbrough in the bloody nose incident a couple of years ago.
re: Flopping - Yes, I don't mind going there at all. For all of the grief that Duke gets for playing good defense and drawing fouls (our view) or flopping (most other teams' view), I think that Hans takes the cake on flopping and far surpasses anything I've seen from our guys. (Again, see "Objectivity" above;))

I fully expect the rematch to be another war.

Go Duke!

Brumby

CDu
02-12-2009, 10:04 AM
Including the Miami player whose name I can't remember, against us last weekend.

His name was Daequon (sp?) Jones. It's very interesting the difference in take between Singler's play and Jones's play on this board. I think the bias is evident (understandable, but evident).

I'm inclined to believe there was intent to elbow Hansbrough to shrug him off. I don't think it was intentionally to the face, but that's not really the point. I can't see how people think it was clearly not intentional. I could accept an argument that intent is not clear, but I can't accept an argument that no intent is clear.

I'm fine with the call. You can't let that go uncalled. I also don't think it was the turning point in the game. We pushed the lead back up after that, but then Lawson took over. In fact, I didn't really see a particular turning point. UNC dominated us for the first 9 minutes (winning by 11). Then, we shot the lights out for 11 minutes (winning by 19). Then, we played even with them for 2 minutes in the second half. Then, they dominated us for the last 18 minutes (winning by 22).

allenmurray
02-12-2009, 10:05 AM
Actually, I think the flop was a very good thing for Duke fans, and I want to thank Hansbrough for his performance last night. As a result, UNC fans have now lost any ability to criticize Duke for taking flops on the charge for the immediate future IMO. After having to listen to it for years, it's going to be rather refreshing to respond to any catcalls by calling out one of their own.

Maybe it will put an end to the Duke gets all the calls mantra as well. As Dickie V has said repeatedly, "they made more free throws than we attempted". Why? Not because anybody gets all the calls, but because the way they ran their offense created situations for them to get fouled. Just as duke usually does. Funny though, I don't remember hearing the announcers harp on the foul/free throw discrepancy

Lord Ash
02-12-2009, 10:10 AM
I understand that the elbow may have been called intentional because it was a foul after a whistle and that is the rule. But I do not in any way, shape, or form think it was intentional. He was trying to rip the ball out from between Tyler's legs and his hand slipped up. If you watch it at regular speed you can appreciate the power in his arms as he was trying to get the ball and that that power was translated into his arm flailing up and back.

orrnot
02-12-2009, 10:11 AM
Looked to me like he was trying to start a chainsaw and the cord broke. Maybe he wasn't trying to hit anyone, but starting a chainsaw in the middle of a basketball game is really, really dangerous.

allenmurray
02-12-2009, 10:14 AM
Looked to me like he was trying to start a chainsaw and the cord broke. Maybe he wasn't trying to hit anyone, but trying to start a chainsaw in the middle of a basketball game is really, really dangerous.

I was flying out of the Kansas City airport a few years ago. They had a big plexiglass display case with examples of things you can not bring on an airplane (scissors, knitting needles, picket knives, etc.). In it was also a chainsaw. Who the heck tries to bring a chainsaw on an airplane?

devildeac
02-12-2009, 10:25 AM
Maybe it will put an end to the Duke gets all the calls mantra as well. As Dickie V has said repeatedly, "they made more free throws than we attempted". Why? Not because anybody gets all the calls, but because the way they ran their offense created situations for them to get fouled. Just as duke usually does. Funny though, I don't remember hearing the announcers harp on the foul/free throw discrepancy

Duke FT>opponents FT=Duke gets all the calls
Opponent FT> Duke FT=mismatches caused it or make up for all the calls we got in the past (see Klemnop's 35 year reference in his post-Clemson comments about the officials) or they're better than us, etc.

Been that way for about 7-8 years now since Packer and Williams appear to have made it the public outcry in the FF and many of the other networks/commentators/analysts continue to do it during and after our games when we have that advantage. Not saying it's proper/correct, but that's what we have to deal with unfortunately.

CDu
02-12-2009, 10:26 AM
I understand that the elbow may have been called intentional because it was a foul after a whistle and that is the rule. But I do not in any way, shape, or form think it was intentional. He was trying to rip the ball out from between Tyler's legs and his hand slipped up. If you watch it at regular speed you can appreciate the power in his arms as he was trying to get the ball and that that power was translated into his arm flailing up and back.

See it however you will. I think it could be as you described, or it could be that Singler made it look that way with the intent to be sneaky. I honestly don't see how anyone can say definitively which it is. Given his competitive, scrappy nature, I'm inclined to believe there was some intent there. And given his smarts, I would think he'd have the sense to do it somewhat covertly and make it look incidental. I'm not obviously not sure of that, but I honestly can't see how someone can say with certainly that it WASN'T intentional.

But, it's not really worth discussing more than that. It got called, it didn't determine the game, it doesn't really matter anymore.

feldspar
02-12-2009, 10:28 AM
Here's the salient point:

In this type of situation, if the refs are going to err, they have to err on the side of keeping players safe. Throwing elbows (whether you're trying to make contact or not) after a whistle is not safe.

allenmurray
02-12-2009, 10:31 AM
Singler is a very smart player. The fact that it happened when Duke had the lead and the momentum makes me give him the benefit of the doubt.

He is also scrappy. Had it happened at a different point in the game I'd have no difficulty believeing it was intentional. However, given the time and circumstance I find it odd to hink he would have risked that much.
Either way the officials made the right call - it happened in a dead ball situation, therefore it couldn't be a personal foul - it had to be a technical.

BD80
02-12-2009, 10:39 AM
I don't think the elbow was intentional, Kyle was clearly trying to rip the ball away from another layer. Ironically, it was being held down by a teammate, not Hansflop. It was a foul that resulted from frustration, there was no need to free the ball.

Hansflop did not really flop, per se, but it certainly was not a foul on Greg. Hans was trying REALLY hard to keep his feet ahead of Greg and stepped in front of Greg. He did not have position and it should not have been called a charge when contact occurred. Hansflop was so out of control, the contact caused him to lose his balance and fly backward. Yes, he gets all the calls. All Americans tend to.

The calls that bothered me were the drive by Lawson that resulted in a foul by Lance, and Z's block on Ellington. With the benefit of HD and DVR I watched each several times. Z's block was sooo clean. During the live broadcast, I was screaming that Lawson traveled after his spin move, but on replay I realized that he dribbled again after a 360 spin with the ball in his hand - that has GOT to be called a carry.

Another call amused me - Singler's "over the back;" yes, he was out of control, but Kyle himself was being pushed from behind by a Carolina player while in the air.

The calls didn't lose the game for us, we got beat by a really good team. I do think we can get better and that we can beat them. However, I am concerned that Hansflop gets too many calls in his favor, Lawson gets away with too much ball control between dribbles, and that Z gets called for being in the game when a shot from the post is missed. Modern day profiling.

Devil4Life
02-12-2009, 11:02 AM
What determined last night's game was the lack wanting it more. For the last three seasons I see the same typical Duke team; a team with no swagger. No one plays with a chip on their shoulders, our horrible and I mean horrible front line gets thrown around like ragdolls. A little trash talking here and now won't hurt people. Pulling on your jersey, beating your chest, yelling in the camera after an "And 1".:mad: Who cares about class people. If we want to be known as the elite program as before well we gotta want it more.

Yes I am venting just a little :D, but to let UNC come to our house and get their 4th straight win makes me mad

aro24
02-12-2009, 11:10 AM
Here's my take......anyone ever notice how everytime there is a held ball situation, the Duke players will not release the ball....kind of a statement that if they come away from the scrum with the ball that they are saying that they wanted it more.......
That being said, I think the play with Singer was nothing more than a hand slipping off the ball and an inadvertant elbow to the face of Tyler. You could clearly see from the replay Kyle was trying to rake the ball out.
Those that are on here degrading Kyle for the play and calling it dirty....well, I have to question how many hours you have spent on a court ? It is part of the game, it happens. Kyle is a big boy, if he would have meant it, I think we would have known it.
So, like it is said on these boards many times....move on, next play.

A-Ro24

greybeard
02-12-2009, 11:14 AM
Bizzare play. Does anyone know if trying to control the ball and anything near it, which would be Singler's arms, with a sizzor look by one's thighs is either a walk or a foul? It does seem that Singler took offense at that play.

I really don't know the rules but it does seem that the refs can do better on some of these balls that go to the floor to let anything go until they call a jump ball.

I thought that it was a gift that Singler did not get tossed.

While, as a said, I really don't know, I think that a whistle should have blown earlier as soon as H started using his legs to squeeze the ball away from Singler--either a foul or walk or something. If someone has something official on that, that would be interesting.

Lord Ash
02-12-2009, 11:21 AM
Bizzare play. Does anyone know if trying to control the ball and anything near it, which would be Singler's arms, with a sizzor look by one's thighs is either a walk or a foul? It does seem that Singler took offense at that play.

I really don't know the rules but it does seem that the refs can do better on some of these balls that go to the floor to let anything go until they call a jump ball.

I thought that it was a gift that Singler did not get tossed.

While, as a said, I really don't know, I think that a whistle should have blown earlier as soon as H started using his legs to squeeze the ball away from Singler--either a foul or walk or something. If someone has something official on that, that would be interesting.

Grey, if Kyle had been tossed for THAT, it would have been a race between myself and Coach K as to who could wrap their hands around the refs neck and squeeze until death first.

I am surprised that as many people here think there was intent to elbow Tyler in the face as there seem to be. Maybe slow-motion causes people to read more into it than there was, but I think there was as much intent here as there was in the Henderson/Hans incident.

TheBrianZoubekExperience
02-12-2009, 11:24 AM
I think it was intentional. I've been in that situation before and it did look like his hand slipped but he kept his elbow bent when it came off the ball which seems to indicate he was trying to use it to clear space rather than it just slipped. Really impossible to tell I guess but I would lean towards intentional. Maybe not intentional to hit his face but he was probably intending to throw it back to clear some space.

I thought Hans's reaction was fine. He didn't really whine or say anything he just kind of looked at Kyle like WTF.

I thought Hans flopped on teh Paulus charge to exaggerate the impact but Paulus did extend his hand to push off a bit so Paulus probably did foul but I think Hans exaggerrated it. If you look at Paulus's reaction he looks like he know he pushed off too.

CDu
02-12-2009, 11:27 AM
Grey, if Kyle had been tossed for THAT, it would have been a race between myself and Coach K as to who could wrap their hands around the refs neck and squeeze until death first.

I am surprised that as many people here think there was intent to elbow Tyler in the face as there seem to be. Maybe slow-motion causes people to read more into it than there was, but I think there was as much intent here as there was in the Henderson/Hans incident.

I think most people (if not everyone) has specifically said there wasn't intent to elbow Hansbrough in the face. The difference of opinion comes on whether there was intent to elbow him at all.

brumby041
02-12-2009, 11:32 AM
I really don't know the rules but it does seem that the refs can do better on some of these balls that go to the floor to let anything go until they call a jump ball.



I have to agree with this point. I played HS ball in the 80's, and tie-ups were a relatively rare occurance. Could be that the college game is different, but here are a few examples of how things were called in my experience:

1. Loose ball on the floor. Player goes after it and slides on the floor while collecting the ball (and/or twists body to attempt to pass or call TO). Call: Traveling. [Logic: Sliding or twisting on the floor with the ball is traveling.]

2. Loose ball on the floor. One player is attempting to get it. Another player (other team) makes contact with that player whilst also attempting to gain possession. Call: Foul [Logic: Looks like a tackle; tackling is discouraged in bball.]

3. Player has the ball in hand. Player on the other team reaches in to grab the ball. (Often a guard grabbing a ball from a big.) Call: Reach-In Foul. [Logic: It is really hard to do this without making contact with some part of the player's body, usually an arm.]

I don't like the free-for-all that we see in today's game and I'm actually amazed that there aren't more injuries because of it.

duke98
02-12-2009, 11:34 AM
He did not dramatize the effect of the elbow - an elbow to the face hurts.

but either Hansbrough is very strong (what UNC folks usually say about him) or he is not. He is 6"9" and about 260 lbs. If having Greg Paulus run into you at less than full speed causes you to fall to the floor and slide 20 feet either you are not very big and strong, or you are acting. You can't have it both ways.

Well said. I'd just like to hear the UNC fans who squawked about Battier flopping all the time acknowledge that their golden boy Hansborough is just as talented in that particular skill.

Rudy
02-12-2009, 11:44 AM
I think it was intentional. I've been in that situation before and it did look like his hand slipped but he kept his elbow bent when it came off the ball which seems to indicate he was trying to use it to clear space rather than it just slipped. Really impossible to tell I guess but I would lean towards intentional. Maybe not intentional to hit his face but he was probably intending to throw it back to clear some space.

I thought Hans's reaction was fine. He didn't really whine or say anything he just kind of looked at Kyle like WTF.

I thought Hans flopped on teh Paulus charge to exaggerate the impact but Paulus did extend his hand to push off a bit so Paulus probably did foul but I think Hans exaggerrated it. If you look at Paulus's reaction he looks like he know he pushed off too.

I agree with all of this. Intentional to clear space not to connect with H's face. Hansbrough handled it with class I have to say. If we had him on our team we would be in love with the guy. Maximum effort, maximizing moderately good talent to become a great college player, little complaining, stayed all four years.

We can hardly complain when a guy turns an inconsequential arm push into a flop, resulting in an offensive charge on Greg. Sheesh.

Reddevil
02-12-2009, 11:47 AM
Up and to the left
Up and to the left
Up and to the left...

Oliver Stone is snickering. Big boys play hard, and move on. This was not a turning point. Beaker's 3 was. Man that hurt!

SupaDave
02-12-2009, 11:47 AM
Considering the number of jump balls last night it was only natural that there would be DYNAMIC struggles for the ball. This game was very physical.

I don't believe it was done out of malice but his arm was definitely coming out unleashed and it appeared that he wanted a little room knowing that he had someone on his back.

The tech was the right call - if you throw an elbow at ALL - it's a tech.

Just think of all the stuff that we did NOT see.

SupaDave
02-12-2009, 11:49 AM
Up and to the left
Up and to the left
Up and to the left...

Oliver Stone is snickering. Big boys play hard, and move on. This was not a turning point. Beaker's 3 was. Man that hurt!

I agreee that the '3' was a huge deflator. It's like 'wtf?' It was one of those moments...

cape cod
02-12-2009, 12:07 PM
I just reviewed the youtube footage and it is clear that Kyle had the ball on the ground under his own torso, protected on his left by his left arm. The ball was somewhat exposed on his right side (away from Tyler, who is in a seated position) and Thomas had an arm in digging at the ball from over Kyle's head and right shoulder. Kyle clearly has possession, but Tyler reaches over Kyle with his arm poised to make a move toward the ball if it should appear from under the pile. Kyle sees the arm and takes what he thinks is a free shot with his elbow, just before he quickly gets up and releases the ball.

The other recent chippy play was when he poked the ball away from the Miami guard in the waning seconds of that game.

brumby041
02-12-2009, 12:42 PM
Sorry, but B.S.

Also, did you notice how Hans hesitates after he is hit and then realizes that he needs to jerk his head back and grab the side of this face?

Not buying intentional.

Classof06
02-12-2009, 12:53 PM
I didn't think it was intentional whatsoever.

That being said, I've seen kids being thrown out of games for these kind of incidents lately so I'm glad the refs (who probably weren't sure whether it was intentional or not) just decided to assess a tech instead of going overboard and tossing Singler from a game of that magnitude.

But I really don't believe it was intentional. And if any UNC players thought it was, I think they would've had a much stronger reaction to the incident.

SilkyJ
02-12-2009, 12:58 PM
I can't even believe there is a discussion going on here. I wasn't intentional, Kyle is clearly fighting for the loose ball and trying to rip it away from whoever else was grabbing it (it was Lance btw, and the refs blew that call by calling it a jump when Hansbro wasn't even touching it) and during one of the rips his hand slipped and his elbow went backwards.

How are you guys even questioning this? When has Kyle ever done anything considered dirty? EVER? The refs blew last night

SilkyJ
02-12-2009, 01:01 PM
I just reviewed the youtube footage and it is clear that Kyle had the ball on the ground under his own torso, protected on his left by his left arm. The ball was somewhat exposed on his right side (away from Tyler, who is in a seated position) and Thomas had an arm in digging at the ball from over Kyle's head and right shoulder. Kyle clearly has possession, but Tyler reaches over Kyle with his arm poised to make a move toward the ball if it should appear from under the pile. Kyle sees the arm and takes what he thinks is a free shot with his elbow, just before he quickly gets up and releases the ball.


Your detailed analysis is ridiculously flawed and missing the most critical element: that Kyle's right hand was attempting to rip the ball away and when his hand slipped, his elbow went flying backwards. Watch again.

The reason its flawed is b/c Kyle COULD NOT SEE hansbrough's arm coming in because it was behind Kyle's head and despite his many attributes, Kyle does not have eyes in the back of his head.

The angle to look at is the bird's eye view angle. It is 100% obvious from that angle that it was unintentional. All this discussion is really superfluous.

brumby041
02-12-2009, 01:02 PM
I didn't think it was intentional whatsoever.

That being said, I've seen kids being thrown out of games for these kind of incidents lately so I'm glad the refs (who probably weren't sure whether it was intentional or not) just decided to assess a tech instead of going overboard and tossing Singler from a game of that magnitude.

But I really don't believe it was intentional. And if any UNC players thought it was, I think they would've had a much stronger reaction to the incident.

I agree with this point. With all the discussions lately (Playcaller, etc.) about the refs and the finer points, I thought that the refs handled it very well. They huddled up and discussed it among themselves first, and then made what I believe to be a good call. Penalized enough, but not too much.

I wonder what sort of seniority system the refs use and where you need to be on that list to draw this game on your schedule. Obviously not these guys' first rodeo...

feldspar
02-12-2009, 01:06 PM
All this discussion is really superfluous.

Right, because your assessment is the only one that matters.

SilkyJ
02-12-2009, 01:06 PM
Right, because your assessment is the only one that matters.

no but its better than everyone else's

or i should say better than anyone's who doesn't agree with me

dukestheheat
02-12-2009, 01:28 PM
I have watched that replay many times now; I do not see any malice towards Hansbrough from Singler and I honestly think this was a fluke that he hit him with that elbow. I didn't see the need for a foul on this, b/c it was completely unintentional.

dth.

brumby041
02-12-2009, 01:42 PM
I have watched that replay many times now; I do not see any malice towards Hansbrough from Singler and I honestly think this was a fluke that he hit him with that elbow. I didn't see the need for a foul on this, b/c it was completely unintentional.

dth.

I hear ya, but "intent" does not have anything to do with whether or not a given action is a foul. It has something to do with whether or not a "flagrant" foul is called, but intent is not part of the equation. Think of a live-action play where a player unintentionally hits a shooter's arm. Still a foul even though the defender didn't "mean" to make contact.

In this case, the tech was the only option for the refs. An elbow to the face, intentional or not, is a foul. Since it was a dead-ball, the ref's choices were to call a flagrant foul or to call a technical. A dead-ball flagrant results in an ejection of the offending player. Obviously, this would have been overkill. Thus, the T.

Sucks for Kyle and us, but I think the refs got it right.

cape cod
02-12-2009, 02:14 PM
Your detailed analysis is ridiculously flawed and missing the most critical element: that Kyle's right hand was attempting to rip the ball away and when his hand slipped, his elbow went flying backwards. Watch again.

The reason its flawed is b/c Kyle COULD NOT SEE hansbrough's arm coming in because it was behind Kyle's head and despite his many attributes, Kyle does not have eyes in the back of his head.

The angle to look at is the bird's eye view angle. It is 100% obvious from that angle that it was unintentional. All this discussion is really superfluous.

1. Kyle already had control of the ball under his body and was not trying to "rip the ball away" because Tyler had no hands on the ball. At best, Tyler's left arm was extended under Kyle but he was in no position to control the ball. Singler tucks the ball away under himself at seconds 26 through 28 on the youtube and you are deluding yourself if you think he was trying to rip it away from anyone.
2, This is the birds eye view.

3. At second 29, Tyler's right arm reaches out over Kyle, whose head is turned so that he can probably see it on the periphery. It was pretty much simultaneous, so Kyle might not have been reacting to Tyler's right arm, but regardless, Kyle's elbow flies out.

Now, I've looked at the video at least 20 times with stop/go action. If any reasonable fan has looked at it that closely I don't believe anyone would conclude that my analysis was ridiculously flawed.

Kewlswim
02-12-2009, 02:24 PM
Hi,

On TIVO it sort of looks like Beaker sprouted a tentacle that then hit itself so as to make it look like Kyle did it. If Kyle had actually hit Beaker we would have had "Nose Gate II" because it wouldn't have been a minor blow, but a full fledged hide the women and children smash to the snooter.

In all seriousness, I sort of like that Kyle gets a bit persnickety and plays with a chip on his shoulder. I have more confidence in this team than a lot of people on here seem to have.

GO DUKE!

GTHC! (and take CAL while you're at it) Duke and Stanford grad as well as JD fan.

aro24
02-12-2009, 02:31 PM
I hate to tell you but I am afraid that watching this reply 20 times is only wasting time of your life that you will never get back.....did it have any affect on the outcome of the play ????? It is over, move on.
Oh....and after further thought...I believe Hans actually hit Kyle in the elbow with his cheek and should have been called for a charge.

crimsonandblue
02-12-2009, 02:56 PM
I hate to tell you but I am afraid that watching this reply 20 times is only wasting time of your life that you will never get back.....did it have any affect on the outcome of the play ????? It is over, move on.
Oh....and after further thought...I believe Hans actually hit Kyle in the elbow with his cheek and should have been called for a charge.

Thank you Ed Hightower.

BlueDevilJay
02-12-2009, 04:01 PM
Oh....and after further thought...I believe Hans actually hit Kyle in the elbow with his cheek and should have been called for a charge.

Wow, thanks for that, I needed the laugh today. Good stuff. Go Kyle!

JimBD
02-12-2009, 04:59 PM
Hansbrough is a very physical player who has inflicted his share of pain on other players. I wish he played for Duke. When you're as physical as Hansbrough, you're going to get a certain level of physical play thrown back at you. When you play against someone as physical as Hansbrough, you can either back down or try to match his level of physical play. Singler is not as big and strong as a lot of players underneath, so he sometimes has to have a certain degree of intensity and surliness to be effective. I don't think that Singler was trying to injure Hansbrough, but he was in a scrum and trying to be physical to get the ball out of the scrum. Unfortunately, his elbow landed in Hansbrough's face and it was an obvious foul. Did that play change the momentum of the game? Maybe not, but it was certainly a contributing factor. It was Singler's third foul, and the fourth foul came pretty quick. It had to have an effect on the way Singler player in the second half. But give UNC credit-they seemed to play with much more intensity in the second half than Duke, and it was a good win for UNC.

JimBD
02-12-2009, 05:09 PM
Oh....and after further thought...I believe Hans actually hit Kyle in the elbow with his cheek and should have been called for a charge.

Actually, there have been numerous calls against Duke this year when I was screaming "Where's the foul?" Then when I saw the replay, it was obvious that the Duke player used his face to foul the offensive player's swinging elbow.

kinghoops
02-12-2009, 05:46 PM
1. Kyle already had control of the ball under his body and was not trying to "rip the ball away" because Tyler had no hands on the ball. At best, Tyler's left arm was extended under Kyle but he was in no position to control the ball. Singler tucks the ball away under himself at seconds 26 through 28 on the youtube and you are deluding yourself if you think he was trying to rip it away from anyone.
2, This is the birds eye view.

3. At second 29, Tyler's right arm reaches out over Kyle, whose head is turned so that he can probably see it on the periphery. It was pretty much simultaneous, so Kyle might not have been reacting to Tyler's right arm, but regardless, Kyle's elbow flies out.

Now, I've looked at the video at least 20 times with stop/go action. If any reasonable fan has looked at it that closely I don't believe anyone would conclude that my analysis was ridiculously flawed.

im a big a duke fan as anyone, and i totally agree, the elbow was on purpose. it wasnt an accident. i hate to see kyle resort to something like this, being tough and not taking no s--- is one thing, but doing so stupid that you risk being ejected is not very smart

SilkyJ
02-12-2009, 06:33 PM
1. Kyle already had control of the ball under his body and was not trying to "rip the ball away" because Tyler had no hands on the ball. At best, Tyler's left arm was extended under Kyle but he was in no position to control the ball.


As I said in the post above the one you quoted, I know he wasn't trying to rip it away from Hansbro, he was ripping it away from Lance. See below.


I can't even believe there is a discussion going on here. I wasn't intentional, Kyle is clearly fighting for the loose ball and trying to rip it away from whoever else was grabbing it (it was Lance btw, and the refs blew that call by calling it a jump when Hansbro wasn't even touching it) and during one of the rips his hand slipped and his elbow went backwards.

How are you guys even questioning this? When has Kyle ever done anything considered dirty? EVER? The refs blew last night



Singler tucks the ball away under himself at seconds 26 through 28 on the youtube and you are deluding yourself if you think he was trying to rip it away from anyone.

The reason I am not deluding myself is that prior to the elbow, Kyle made THE EXACT SAME MOTION TWICE. NOT ONCE. TWICE

As soon as they cut to the Bird's eye view at about 26.5 seconds you can see him rip at the ball and his hand goes flying off to his right, then he does the same motion again at about 28.5 seconds, only this time its not as obvious b/c his hand doesn't go flying, then he makes the same motion immediately thereafter at about 29.5 seconds, and thats when he elbows hansbrough. Kyle was trying to strip the ball clear to avoid a tie up and accidentally elbowed Hansbro.

I am making zero claims about whether thats a foul, but it was clearly unintentional and to say otherwise means you A) dont know how to watch and analyze basketball and B) means you are calling Kyle a dirty player with zero precedent for doing so.

You are flat out wrong. FLAT OUT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUFeSOjYfdU

JDev
02-12-2009, 06:46 PM
I can't imagine how anyone could possibly watch that play and think the elbow was on purpose. Kyle was repeatedly swiping at the ball and trying to get it loose from the pile and gain possession. On the last swipe his arm came flying off the ball, sending it backwards. The call was right, technically, because if they had deemed it intentional, he would have been ejected. However, it clearly wasn't. I know this is harsh, but it is basically delusional to think otherwise.

SilkyJ
02-12-2009, 06:56 PM
I can't imagine how anyone could possibly watch that play and think the elbow was on purpose. Kyle was repeatedly swiping at the ball and trying to get it loose from the pile and gain possession

EXACTLY. its the repeated swipes at the ball that make it so obvious, though its pretty obvious even from the single infamous swipe that he was trying to grab the ball...

concrete
02-12-2009, 08:07 PM
I agree with all of this. Intentional to clear space not to connect with H's face. Hansbrough handled it with class I have to say. If we had him on our team we would be in love with the guy. Maximum effort, maximizing moderately good talent to become a great college player, little complaining, stayed all four years.

We can hardly complain when a guy turns an inconsequential arm push into a flop, resulting in an offensive charge on Greg. Sheesh.


You guys make no sense and it's mind boggling.

You can clearly see from the replays, Kyle is pulling at the ball trying to yank it out and it's stuck , his hand slips off and his elbow (which is already bent!!!) hits Hansbrough inadvertently.

He had no control of his movements once his hand slipped.

that's like calling a technical foul because someone slipped on a wet spot and tripped another player.

concrete
02-12-2009, 08:09 PM
1. Kyle already had control of the ball under his body and was not trying to "rip the ball away" because Tyler had no hands on the ball. At best, Tyler's left arm was extended under Kyle but he was in no position to control the ball. Singler tucks the ball away under himself at seconds 26 through 28 on the youtube and you are deluding yourself if you think he was trying to rip it away from anyone.
2, This is the birds eye view.

3. At second 29, Tyler's right arm reaches out over Kyle, whose head is turned so that he can probably see it on the periphery. It was pretty much simultaneous, so Kyle might not have been reacting to Tyler's right arm, but regardless, Kyle's elbow flies out.

Now, I've looked at the video at least 20 times with stop/go action. If any reasonable fan has looked at it that closely I don't believe anyone would conclude that my analysis was ridiculously flawed.


LOL@watching the video on stop/go.

You're a regular ESPN analyst now! lol.

Here's the quote from Kyle ...the victim as it is:

"Said Singler: “I didn’t think I hit him. It wasn’t intentional. I was just trying to pop the ball out of his hands.” :

concrete
02-12-2009, 08:16 PM
and I think Hansbrough acted a bit on the "elbow". If you watch the replays he gets hit in the throat area and you see his first reaction to it. Then you see a second reaction where he acts like he was punched in the jaw and starts holding his chin.

CBDUKE
02-12-2009, 08:36 PM
Please explain how you call a jump ball when the only players with their hands on the ball are on the same team?

Zeke
02-12-2009, 09:17 PM
After looking at this several times, this foul looks much more intentional than Henderson's intentional foul against Hansborough last year. That foul got Henderson ejcted and he had to sit out for the next gametoo. I think we're lucky that didn't happen here.

TampaDuke
02-12-2009, 09:19 PM
I didn't think he intentionally meant to hit him in the face, but to me it appeared that he definitely intended to swing his elbow with reckless disregard for anyone around. Given that, if you connect with someone's head, I think you've got to call the technical. He was fortunate not to be tossed, given some of the other similar ejections we've seen.

Is it me, or does anyone else notice a general drop in sportsmanship over the past few years (not just by us, but every team). It's become exceedingly obvious to me lately. If two guys fall to the floor on a clean play, each team runs over to their player to help them up without assisting the other team's player (often even stepping over the opponent to extend their hand to their own player). Players deliberately stepping in front of other players (and often bumping them) on out of bounds plays or in between free throws (e.g., Paulus steps directly in front of the opposing player every time an opponent shoots one of two free throws). I hardly ever see this at the gym.

Exuberance and team unity is one thing. But this seems to be something altogether different. I could understand if it were just that way with respect to UNC, but it's every game. I'd prefer to see Duke win while also taking the high road.

Anyone else notice this or am I just overly sensitive to these things?

duketaylor
02-12-2009, 10:43 PM
Anyone thinking that was an intentional foul just simply is blind and doesn't get it. Simple as that.

JRJOE
02-12-2009, 11:36 PM
I'm a Carolina fan. Does it really matter if the elbow was intentional or not? It was in the heat of the battle and things like that
happen.

Fish80
02-13-2009, 09:01 AM
I'm a Carolina fan. Does it really matter if the elbow was intentional or not? It was in the heat of the battle and things like that
happen.

I agree that things just happen in the heat of the battle.

We'll never know Kyle's intent. He probably doesn't know either. It just happened. Given the speed and circumstance, IMHO it was not premeditated, but rather a reaction or an instinctive action.

We need several psychologists and years of research and experimentation to form a reasonable hypothesis regarding Kyle's subconscious intent.

Johnboy
02-13-2009, 09:09 AM
I'm a Carolina fan. Does it really matter if the elbow was intentional or not? It was in the heat of the battle and things like that
happen.

Thank you for this post. Welcome to the board - we like hearing from reasonable posters like you!

We've had quite enough discussion on this particular topic, IMO.

CDu
02-13-2009, 09:37 AM
LOL@watching the video on stop/go.

You're a regular ESPN analyst now! lol.

Here's the quote from Kyle ...the victim as it is:

"Said Singler: “I didn’t think I hit him. It wasn’t intentional. I was just trying to pop the ball out of his hands.” :

I'm through arguing one way or the other on the matter, as I honestly don't care anymore. But providing the Singler quote as evidence that it was unintentional is a bit silly. OF COURSE he's going to say it was not intentional! You think he's going to say, "yeah, I meant to elbow Hansbrough," to a media source? No way.

The quote is sort of pointless. It may be that he's telling the truth. It may also be that he was using the attempt to strip the ball to extend the exaggerated elbow, and this is just continuing along that line. Some will believe it was unintentional, some will believe it was intentional. Unless Kyle is foolish or masochistic, he's not going to come out and say it was intentional.

feldspar
02-13-2009, 10:09 AM
You are all missing the point.

It doesn't matter, for the sake of the technical foul call, if Kyle intended to do it or not.

merry
02-13-2009, 10:48 AM
I'm surprised this is getting so much air time. Is there really something controversial about this? It wasn't intentional (IMO but I'm biased) but regardless it was a "T". It doesn't seem comparable to the Miami game situation at all to me. That was two players standing by themselves on the court after a made basket and the Miami player had no reason in the world to even move his arm much less shove Paulus with his elbow.

It seems like it's pretty common these days for players to keep struggling for the ball on tie-up even after the whistle is blown. Paulus does this a lot for example, as if he wants to prove he is tougher than the other guy. Once the whistle blows shouldn't they just stop and extract themselves from the situation? In the case of the incident Wednesday night, that was all happening so fast and it was a real pile-up of bodies, so this maybe isn't such a relevant comment. But in general I find that fighting over the ball when someone ought to be handing it to the ref to be kind of childish.

feldspar
02-13-2009, 10:57 AM
It seems like it's pretty common these days for players to keep struggling for the ball on tie-up even after the whistle is blown. Paulus does this a lot for example, as if he wants to prove he is tougher than the other guy. Once the whistle blows shouldn't they just stop and extract themselves from the situation? In the case of the incident Wednesday night, that was all happening so fast and it was a real pile-up of bodies, so this maybe isn't such a relevant comment. But in general I find that fighting over the ball when someone ought to be handing it to the ref to be kind of childish.

Agreed. This is one of my biggest peeves about Paulus. It's quite childish.

CDu
02-13-2009, 10:58 AM
I'm surprised this is getting so much air time. Is there really something controversial about this? It wasn't intentional (IMO but I'm biased) but regardless it was a "T". It doesn't seem comparable to the Miami game situation at all to me. That was two players standing by themselves on the court after a made basket and the Miami player had no reason in the world to even move his arm much less shove Paulus with his elbow.

It seems like it's pretty common these days for players to keep struggling for the ball on tie-up even after the whistle is blown. Paulus does this a lot for example, as if he wants to prove he is tougher than the other guy. Once the whistle blows shouldn't they just stop and extract themselves from the situation? In the case of the incident Wednesday night, that was all happening so fast and it was a real pile-up of bodies, so this maybe isn't such a relevant comment. But in general I find that fighting over the ball when someone ought to be handing it to the ref to be kind of childish.

I may have to disagree with this statement. There was a made basket and Paulus was grabbing at the basketball while Jones was trying to grab the ball to inbound. The two got tied up, with Paulus trying to annoy Jones. It worked, and Jones elbowed him - in part out of frustration with Paulus, and in part to clear Paulus away from him to allow him to inbound.

Granted, that doesn't make Jones's elbow acceptable. But Paulus had no business grabbing for the ball in that situation (Duke had just made a basket). Paulus was trying to be annoying and trying to give Duke time to set up their pressure on the in-bounds (technically a delay of game, but it's never called anymore). The main point being that the elbow didn't come out of nowhere.

The elbow by Jones was certainly intentional, and thus unacceptable. And if Singler's elbow was intentional (and it may not have been), it was also unacceptable. If it wasn't intentional, then the technical was the correct call. If it was, then Singler should have been ejected. The officials played it safe and took the technical route rather than assuming intent.

devil84
02-13-2009, 11:13 AM
We've had enough discussion on this. It has degenerated into name calling.

In an effort to educate people what constitutes incivility on this board, I will refer you to these quotes I pulled from this thread alone:



“Sorry, but B.S.”

“How are you guys even questioning this?”
“Your detailed analysis is ridiculously flawed…”
“Right, because your assessment is the only one that matters.”
“no but its better than everyone else's”
“If any reasonable fan has looked at it that closely...”
“Thank you Ed Hightower.” (This one could be funny, though with the tone of the thread, I took it as snarky.)
“You are flat out wrong. FLAT OUT.”
“I know this is harsh, but it is basically delusional to think otherwise.”
“You guys make no sense and it's mind boggling.”
“Anyone thinking that was an intentional foul just simply is blind and doesn't get it. Simple as that.”

Y'all can behave better. Clean it up.