MBB: UNC 101 - Duke 87 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Discuss, if you will.

[91devil]

Well, a disappointing second half...but let's give some credit to UNC. The way they played in the second half....they don't lose to anyone.

We didn't shoot well in the second half, which we needed to do for the full game, but this is a game that UNC won, not that Duke lost.

[Huh?]

Duke, tell us what happened?

[77devil]

More talent for the baby blues pure and simple as much as it pains me to write it. No player who can handle Lawson. Let's not over analyze this one.

[Ian]

I'm not saying Coach K has done a bad job. He's done a very good job, but he has not done a championship caliber job with the program the last few years. Our personnel just isn't there. UNC out talented us in the 2nd half.

[OldSchool]

Emotional turning point of the game IMO was the technical on Kyle for the elbow to Hansbrough.

The call, the delay, the confusion, just seemed to knock the team down a level in terms of energy. Prior to that they were maintaining such a sharp edge of proficiency.

[Lulu]

First off, a congratulations is in order for Bilas...
(I was admittedly one who used to wholly defend Bilas, because I really enjoyed his analyses, but he finally crossed a line with me earlier this year.)

I hate to seem negative, but I think tonight we just saw the limitations of our team compared to a team with significant talent. Yes, we have talent, too, but no one can play Lawson, that's all there is to it. As I posted in another thread, I just really want to know how much of our offensive explosion in the first half might have been Duke actually being in sync, versus how much of it was just due to Carolina playing pathetic defense.

[HDB]

Carolina would be such a different team without Lawson. Damn, I wish he'd gone pro.

[ice-9]

At the beginning of the season, I thought Duke was an Elite Eight team. As we piled up wins in dominating fashion -- with incredibly efficient offense and defense -- I thought we were a Final Four team. Now, I can see how we could lose a Sweet Sixteen match-up. It's not just because we lost to UNC or Clemson...but it's the realization that we rely so much on the jumpshot

Relative to other top teams, we do not have a consistent, high percentage way of generating offense. Some ways of getting a consistent offense: fast breaks, forcing turnovers (e.g. via press), dominant post player, or a player who can penetrate at will. We don't really have any of those. Our pressure D is great against teams with poor guards, but in the NCAA tournament we'll see teams with good guards. We don't have a dominant post player. Henderson and Smith have the ability to penetrate, but they hardly do. Bottom line, when our jumpshot is not falling, we struggle. I understand that if you can maintain a top tier defense, you can minimize the ups and downs of the jumpshot; but in the lose-and-you're-done nature of the NCAA tournament, where we will be playing against other good teams, our defense may not carry us far enough when we shoot horribly.

If you think about why UNC is a consensus preseason #1 and still considered by most with the best chance to win the whole thing, they have a lot of those factors: they use the fast break often; they have a dominant post player in Hansbrough (Thompson and Davis are also quite good); and they have a guard that can penetrate at will in Lawson. On top of those things they have several capable shooters. It's no wonder their offense is one of the best in the nation...their defense just has to be adequate for them to win games, and it's not hard to make that extra effort to step up your defense in big games.

If our jumpshots are falling, we can beat any team in the nation. And while I expect us to get at least to the Sweet Sixteen, every game after is going to be a jumpshot coin toss.

[cruxer]

Lawson was a difference maker for the heels, and missing open 3s was a difference maker for us. We killed them in the first half with little curls into the lane and hitting 8-10 ft runners, especially after Hansbrough's 2nd foul. They adjusted in the 2nd half and were sagging more in the lane, leaving us open for 3s that we didn't hit.

Overall I don't think we played badly, but Lawson is quite a force when he doesn't press, which he tends to do when his opposite number is lighting up the joint. We simply didn't have a solution for him.

Hansbrough wasn't quite the difference he's been in past meetings, but that ridiculous 3 when the shot clock was nearly up effectively ended our chance to come back At that point 12 was a hole we couldn't dig out of.

I didn't think we played badly, Carolina just played better tonight. They don't necessarily have better talent (with the possible, ok likely, exception of Lawson), they just have deeper talent. When Deon Thompson is killing you, you know you're in trouble.

-c

[godukerocks]

Just ONE guy, please, give us an "inside presence".

[Ben63]

We gave it a run but just didn't have enough in the end. Carolina is clearly a National Title contender and while it sucks to lose to them, I don't think anyone can argue that they aren't a better team than Duke. Lawson is unstoppable, there is no one in the country who can guard him one v one.

The difference between this years loss and last years win at the Dean Dump is simple. We made our threes the whole game and Lawson didn't play.

Great game UNC, but ruining Tyler's senior night just like he did to JJ would be some pretty sweet revenge.

[edensquad]

More troubling to me than this loss (and, boy, do I hate all things UNC), is the fact that Duke has lost 4 of the last 6 Halves (vs. Clemson, Miami & UNC) by double digits. Maybe, as John Feinstein wrote.... Duke just isn't all that good. Certainly tonight, UNC's relentlessly efficient offense trumped Duke's vaunted defense.... and the Devils are so streaky on offense.... hot & cold... *** sigh ***

[Lulu]

Emotional turning point of the game IMO was the technical on Kyle for the elbow to Hansbrough.

The call, the delay, the confusion, just seemed to knock the team down a level in terms of energy. Prior to that they were maintaining such a sharp edge of proficiency.

Yeah, does anyone here actually think that wasn't intentional? I found it completely unforgivable, even at the time. Unless Tyler was giving him a hidden purple nurple under there or something that was just uncalled for. Looked nothing like a "slip" of the hand to me.

p.s. I still consider Henderson's elbow an accident, albeit perhaps a little reckless.

[Cell-R]

I still love Duke. Goodnight. :rolleyes::)

[91devil]

First off, a congratulations is in order for Bilas...
(I was admittedly one who used to wholly defend Bilas, because I really enjoyed his analyses, but he finally crossed a line with me earlier this year.)

I hate to seem negative, but I think tonight we just saw the limitations of our team compared to a team with significant talent. Yes, we have talent, too, but no one can play Lawson, that's all there is to it. As I posted in another thread, I just really want to know how much of our offensive explosion in the first half might have been Duke actually being in sync, versus how much of it was just due to Carolina playing pathetic defense.

Agreed. Everything that Jay Bilas (and Hubert Davis, who is an excellent studio guy, too) said in the SportsCenter analysis was spot on. We are an excellent team.....a Top 10 team....but not an elite Top 3 or 4 team....and not a top favorite for the Final Four.

So what? We can still play at a high enough level to make a deep run in the tournament. This game was one which we all knew would be a tough one to win.

Jay and Hubert were very good (also very good at halftime). No Jay bashing for what he said today (or, really, for whatever he says).

[Sir Stealth]

I for one would like to not hear the usual "we lost because we rely on jump shots" thing for this one. North Carolina scored over 100 points. We missed some jumpers at bad times, but that's part of basketball. We still got 87. Ty Lawson is really good, Carolina is really good, but we can do better against them than giving up 57 points in the second half. That is not a goal that is too high for our talent or the expectations that this team has on defense. For whatever reason, the team did not bring it at a necessary level on the defensive end in the second half. We had a bad scoring drought, yes, but good defense weathers those. It hurts to lose to UNC but I think that the team is capable of more. Hopefully there will be highs to help forget these lows.

[JDev]

Looking at it from the Duke end (which is how I normally view things), Duke shot poorly in the second half, and gave up a ridiculous amount of lay-ups. That is all very clear. Tough to win with that going on. Duke definitely played hard. They just needed to shoot a lot better if they were going to give up so many lay-ups. Duke's biggest problem today was defense. 101 points is too many (said Captain Obvious).

[mapei]

Yes, if our jumpshots are falling, we can keep pace with anyone. But our percentage on jumpshots for the year isn't that good. So that doesn't mean that much that often against elite teams.

I totally agree that the turning point emotionally was the Singler elbow. Stupid move on his part. It wasn't all *that* flagrant, but the call was correct.

Lots of unforced turnovers as we tried to play on the edge to keep up. And Lawson was phenomenal, JWill-esque out there. UNC deserved it, no question.

[Ian]

The elbow was clearly UNINTENTIONAL. Anyone who suggest it wasn't is either blind or something worse.

[RelativeWays]

Carolina would be such a different team without Lawson. Damn, I wish he'd gone pro.


Next season you get your wish, along with two, possibly 3 other players as an added bonus.

[bjornolf]

I thought a big factor in the last five minutes of the game was the floor itself. It seemed like EVERYBODY was slipping and falling for a while there, but when we did it, it turned out bad (open shots for them, turnover for us, etc.), while when they did it, something good seemed to happen for them (managed a pass to an open person, hit the shot, refs blow the whistle and stop play to prevent a runout, etc.). It was just one of those situations where all the bounces went to them in that short span. I'm not calling a conspiracy, or saying we win the game if not for the floor, but I think we'd be talking about a 5-8 point game going into the last minute instead of 12-14. And that's a HUGE difference. We might have had a shot in that situation. Ah, well, that's the way the cookie crumbles sometimes. I guess I'm just saying I could stomach an 5 point loss better than a 14 point one. I thought the game was a lot closer than that before everybody started slipping and sliding, and by that, I'm not talking about the score so much as the quality of play of both teams.

And I thought the elbow was unintentional. His hand had slipped off the ball twice already, and the third time, he was pulling harder, so it just came off harder and went farther. There was no bunching of the bicep muscle or acceleration through the blow like the one Paulus got against Miami. He was just pulling at the ball. It was stupid, as the whistle had already blown and he should have stopped, but it wasn't an intentional blow, IMHO.

The shots that were falling in the first half weren't in the second, and we weren't getting any offensive rebounds. It's as simple as that. I was encouraged by how much heart and fight the guys showed though. I think that will help us in the weeks to come. There was no give like against Clemson.

[jv001]

It's hard to figure out. Are we this bad or is unc this good. I figure unc is not as good as the score looked and we may be as bad as the score looked. We absolutely had no answer for lawson. Paulus was just plain awful trying to guard lawson in the 2nd half. unc got most of their offense off his drives to the basket. Even McClure had trouble guarding him. Nolan did the best job but he still struggles running the team. Lance and Zoubek made a few good plays but made some bad ones as well. In the 2nd half we again reverted to jacking up 3's and when they didn't fall we were doomed. We have 7 games left and two of them are at home. We could easily go 2 & 5 if we don't improve at the 1 and 5 positions. Go Duke!

[Capn Poptart]

Kinda sucks to see the preseason magazines proven right. When people looked at this game before the season, there's just a talent differential. We were picked No. 2 in the ACC and right now that looks about right. Nothing wrong with that: it would be a nice accomplishment and we have a chance to go deep into the tourney.

All in all, we have talent, we played hard, the crowd was great, we showed heart.

But the weight of Carolina's insane recruiting is showing on the court. We need another reliable scorer, a world-class point guard and a serious inside beast.

[OldSchool]

Yeah, does anyone here actually think that wasn't intentional? I found it completely unforgivable, even at the time. Unless Tyler was giving him a hidden purple nurple under there or something that was just uncalled for. Looked nothing like a "slip" of the hand to me.

I would call it reckless, not intentional. Kyle was looking the other way.

That was one of those tie-ups that drive me crazy, when the opposing player reaches from behind with both arms around the player with the ball and the officials still call a jump ball.

If Kyle was a little quicker, he could have flipped the ball away to a teammate before the call. He'll kick himself when he sees the replay.

[geraldsneighbor]

15 turnovers and Lawson playing as he did in the second half is tough. Our offense lost its flow in the second half. It is going to be ok. Duke is still improving. A win in February can only go so far. Time to not make anymore of this then it is. Its one game, BC sunday and its all different next week. Keep in mind we have had to play alot of really tough games in a short stretch. Hopefully we can rack up some wins here late in the season.

[jimmymax]

At the beginning of the season, I thought Duke was an Elite Eight team. As we piled up wins in dominating fashion -- with incredibly efficient offense and defense -- I thought we were a Final Four team. Now, I can see how we could lose a Sweet Sixteen match-up. It's not just because we lost to UNC or Clemson...but it's the realization that we rely so much on the jumpshot

Relative to other top teams, we do not have a consistent, high percentage way of generating offense. Some ways of getting a consistent offense: fast breaks, forcing turnovers (e.g. via press), dominant post player, or a player who can penetrate at will. We don't really have any of those. Our pressure D is great against teams with poor guards, but in the NCAA tournament we'll see teams with good guards. We don't have a dominant post player. Henderson and Smith have the ability to penetrate, but they hardly do. Bottom line, when our jumpshot is not falling, we struggle. I understand that if you can maintain a top tier defense, you can minimize the ups and downs of the jumpshot; but in the lose-and-you're-done nature of the NCAA tournament, where we will be playing against other good teams, our defense may not carry us far enough when we shoot horribly.

If you think about why UNC is a consensus preseason #1 and still considered by most with the best chance to win the whole thing, they have a lot of those factors: they use the fast break often; they have a dominant post player in Hansbrough (Thompson and Davis are also quite good); and they have a guard that can penetrate at will in Lawson. On top of those things they have several capable shooters. It's no wonder their offense is one of the best in the nation...their defense just has to be adequate for them to win games, and it's not hard to make that extra effort to step up your defense in big games.

If our jumpshots are falling, we can beat any team in the nation. And while I expect us to get at least to the Sweet Sixteen, every game after is going to be a jumpshot coin toss.

Bingo. Eerily familiar, like Groundhog Day.

[brumby041]

Yeah, does anyone here actually think that wasn't intentional? I found it completely unforgivable, even at the time. Unless Tyler was giving him a hidden purple nurple under there or something that was just uncalled for. Looked nothing like a "slip" of the hand to me.

p.s. I still consider Henderson's elbow an accident, albeit perhaps a little reckless.

Disagree. I thought that it looked unintentional.

However, the call was correct, IMHO. Since the whistle had already blown for the tie-up, the elbow was a dead-ball foul. Couldn't be a personal foul, it had to be called a technical. It also appeared that the players thought that it was unintentional.

It did seem to deflate the team. End of story.

Additional thought: The elbow might not even have been very hard. After all, GP sent Hans FLYING a few minutes later (when God's Gift to Basketball drew the "charge").:rolleyes:

[jv001]

The elbow was clearly UNINTENTIONAL. Anyone who suggest it wasn't is either blind or something worse.

You are 100% correct. If you recorded the game like I did just run the play and you can see Kyle's hand slipped off the ball and his elbow him hanstravel in his pumpkin head. Go Duke!

[geraldsneighbor]

Disagree. I thought that it looked unintentional.

However, the call was correct, IMHO. Since the whistle had already blown for the tie-up, the elbow was a dead-ball foul. Couldn't be a personal foul, it had to be called a technical. It also appeared that the players thought that it was unintentional.

It did seem to deflate the team. End of story.

Additional thought: The elbow might not even have been very hard. After all, GP sent Hans FLYING a few minutes later (when God's Gift to Basketball drew the "charge").:rolleyes:

Haha, so true. I know it was a big play but it wasn't like Duke didn't have time to respond. There were still 19 minutes left and a 6 point lead. It is what it is. We will bounce back.

[Ian]

Groundhog day because although the names have changed, the composition of the team hasn't really changed, we have a bunch of wing forwards and wing guards.

They're pretty good wing players. But a complete team needs more than just wing players.

[Edouble]

Yeah, does anyone here actually think that wasn't intentional?

I thought it was. Hanstravel's hand was somewhere under Kyle's butt, then it came flying out, around and over Kyle. Kyle did a little box out. He was probably hoping to catch some part of Hanstravel--I'm not so sure that he minded much that it was his face, but c'mon, he was on the floor, on his side, sprawling around, with Hanstravel behind him. He couldn't be aiming directly for the guy's face.

I wish we had a little more ball reversal. I felt like there was a little in the first half, but the ball rarely if ever went inside in the second. I don't necessarily think that whoever gets it has to make a move to the basket, but it seems like our ball movement has the tendency to get stale, and we just pass it around the perimeter with perimeter screening. I know that Henderson, McClure, and Singler can get the ball inside for a second. It's a good way to get the ball over to the weak side fast, not that I don't think Coach K knows what he's doing.

I also felt like there were times when Henderson could drive into the paint, into the heart of the Carolina D, but he would just pull back. I also thought maybe he stopped driving as much in the second half, because when the D collapsed on him and he kicked it out, whoever got it didn't get rid of it, or drive fast enough, and the defense just reset. Frustrating for him, I'm sure.

[OldSchool]

It did seem to deflate the team. End of story.


Coach K just made a similar point in his press conference on ESPN News (Jay Williams holding court as commentator). K said they need to be a little more mature because the team allowed that delay to prompt a lapse in concentration.

[BlueintheFace]

Lawson blew by Paulus and almost faked Nolan out of his shoes a few times. Nobody was stopping him tonight.

For me, the game pretty much came down to a 4 minute stretch in the second half where everything seemed to go wrong. we missed like 5 open threes in a row, loose balls seemed to always go off of us out of bounds or land right in a tarheel lap, and some unfortunate calls were made. A 4 point game turned in to a huge deficit in that time period, and there was no coming back from it.

We just got beat by the frontrunner for the title... and I believe we can beat them with a little luck. I don't feel too bad.

ALSO: I hate to second guess K, but I would have liked to see Z in there a lot more. They were getting layup after layup (especially lawson) and a big man inside would at least make them think twice. This is rare for me, because I almost never second guess K on who did or didn't play, but I think that might have been a mistake on his part.

[HDB]

Paulus was just plain awful trying to guard lawson in the 2nd half. unc got most of their offense off his drives to the basket.

I agree that Paulus was awful on Lawson and thought K stayed with him too long in that run when it got away from us. It will be interesting to see if Paulus continues to start. As much as I love Paulus's heart and emotion I still think Smith playing well gives us the best chance to be a really good team.

[RaineyDevil]

Carolina is good, but as we showed in the first half...they are also vulnerable on the defensive end. Ty Lawson is the best point guard in the ACC and we just dont have a good match up for him. Nolan is quick and can guard the ball, but there just arent many people in the country that are going to have an effect on Lawson's game.

Carolina's vulnerlability on defense could be interesting come March. If they are matched up with an offense such as OU that can score just as easily as Carolina...then that could spell real troubles for the heels. Offense will only take you so far, and when Duke goes cold, we go COLD. Dont wanna say we lived and died by the 3, but bottom line, we couldnt knock down shots in the 2nd half and then couldnt get a series of stops to start any kind of run, and against that kind of talent...you aren't going to win very many times.

As much as I hate the holes, I think that we were just over-matched.

GTHC, GTH

[dbd4ever]

You are 100% correct. If you recorded the game like I did just run the play and you can see Kyle's hand slipped off the ball and his elbow him hanstravel in his pumpkin head. Go Duke!

Thank You!!!!!!!!! Anyone who watched the game and saw the replays could clearly see that it wasn't intentional AT ALL!!!!!! But it was a BIG turning point in the game!!

[BlueintheFace]

ANYBODY, who says that Paulus did worse on Lawson than Nolan simply DID NOT watch the game. Lawson blew by both players numerous times. Neither pg defended him better than the other. Seriously, it didn't matter who was on him.

[dukemsu]

1. Not going to overdo it here. I don't agree that Kyle's elbow was necessarily unintentional, he was frustrated and I don't think he knew who was behind him. Hans's acting job was suitably pathetic by Beaker standards. But Kyle needs to learn to control his nastiness a bit. I don't buy that the incident "turned" the game. After they got it to 4, we got it back to 8 for an instant.

2. Couldn't do anything with Lawson. Depressing.

3. I know it's a cliche, but we're way too reliant on the jumpshot. We don't take the ball to the basket with any regularity, which keeps us off the foul line.

Still proud of our guys as they fought through what became a hopeless situation. But a horrible second half. Didn't think it would ever end.

LGD.

dukemsu

[The1Bluedevil]

In the first half Duke hedged alot of ball screens that involved TH. In the 2nd half I don't understand why Duke did not try and smash every ball screen Lawson was involved in. It may not of worked but it could not have been any worse then guard him 35 feet from the basket and watch him live in the paint. Lawson has a junior high set shot let him shoot!!

[bjornolf]

Someone said to stop harping on the reliance on jumpshooting thing. Well, let's look at foul shooting. Duke went 11-18 (62%), UNC went 27-31 (88%). We lost by 14. We lost the free throw battle by 16. There's your difference right there.

These are battles in years past we won every game, even when we weren't world beaters. We've GOT to get more aggressive on our drives and get to the line more.

[jipops]

Besides the positively ridiculous, ludicrous technical foul call, I felt the turning point occurred at the 11 minute mark of the 2nd half. Scheyer had a completely wide open 3, clanked it, Lance grabbed the board, clanked the put back. We looked completely deflated from there.

Lawson crushed us. The announcers (specifically G-Man) kept harping on UNC's balanced effort but Ty Lawson's effort alone completely destroyed us. We simply had no answer for them. I really didn't think Carolina's defense was all that great in the 2nd (it was terrible in the 1st), our guys just couldn't hit any open looks from deep (which was necessary for a win). Gerald was visibly winded in the 2nd so that may have had something to do with it.

I disagree with the general notion that we can't hang with these guys b/c we have nothing in the post. If you paid attention it was Lawson that completely schooled us and we seem to have less of an answer for him there anywhere else on the floor.

Back to the tech which put a huge kink into any existing momentum. That was yet another case of the refs feeling like they just have to call something especially considering who was involved with it. Everyone knows Kyle is not some retaliating kind of player. It's 100% obvious he's trying to pry the ball away which takes his elbow to Tyler's noggin. Nothing even close to maliciousness on that play, but instead the tech. Positively ridiculous. Not at all something that determined the outcome of the game, but a pathetic call nonetheless.

[OldSchool]

ANYBODY, who says that Paulus did worse on Lawson than Nolan simply DID NOT watch the game. Lawson blew by both players numerous times. Neither pg defended him better than the other. Seriously, it didn't matter who was on him.

I also didn't think Nolan was much better than Greg.

Actually, I thought our most effective defender on Lawson was Dave, when he found himself on switches on Lawson.

Dave has that defensive stance where his feet are way back, leaning forward, ready to quickly retreat if Lawson drives or lunge toward Lawson for a hand in the face if he shoots, and Dave's length and quickness make him effective in that situation.

[geraldsneighbor]

Say what you want about our jump shot relying offense but we still scored 87 points and most nights that'll be good enough. We went cold in the second half. I think we can beat these guys but we need to worry about improving in the final month of the season. We can be a hell of a team in March.

Paulus' first half shooting was a big boost and he did offer us a great chance to win. We just couldn't stop Lawson. I like the idea of Zoub getting more burn in spots. I think the score wasn't a true indication of how well we did play the first 30 minutes.

The DUI chant on Lawson was tremendous btw.

[FerryFor50]

Ugh.

Difference in this game was the discrepancy in FTs, and not because of the officiating. We settled for jump shots instead of trying to get into the paint.

I will say that 31 FTAs vs. 18 is a bit overkill, though, even with a more aggressively driving team. Most of the UNC FTs were after they went into the bonus EARLY in the 2nd half. It was 9 fouls to 3 at one point.

[Edouble]

ALSO: I hate to second guess K, but I would have liked to see Z in there a lot more. They were getting layup after layup (especially lawson) and a big man inside would at least make them think twice. This is rare for me, because I almost never second guess K on who did or didn't play, but I think that might have been a mistake on his part.

If Z had been in the game, Hans or Thompson would have driven on him all day. I think it's a pick your poison: with Z, maybe you can keep Lawson from getting to the rack, but then Carolina's just gonna try to draw him out of the paint, or else keep switching until Z is on Lawson. At least with McClure, you don't have a completely unreasonable match-up with any of the 5 Duke players on the floor guarding Lawson. That said, Lawson went off on us even when Z was out. Ugh!

[weezie]

Our 9 fouls to their 3 weren't very pleasant.

[hustleplays]

Kinda sucks to see the preseason magazines proven right. When people looked at this game before the season, there's just a talent differential. We were picked No. 2 in the ACC and right now that looks about right. Nothing wrong with that: it would be a nice accomplishment and we have a chance to go deep into the tourney.

All in all, we have talent, we played hard, the crowd was great, we showed heart.

But the weight of Carolina's insane recruiting is showing on the court. We need another reliable scorer, a world-class point guard and a serious inside beast.

You nailed it, IMHO, Capn Poptart, we played with heart, but as George Will once said, "Rooting all my life for the Chicago Cubs taught me that sincerity is no substitute for ability." Carolina has more talent, they are well coached and they also play with heart. A friend asked why have they lost games, and I think the answer is that they don't always have to play their best. They had to tonight, a credit to Duke and the rivalry, and their A game beat our A game. I am glad that Duke played with heart. After Clemson, I wondered whether this team had enough heart to withstand all it faced. Not to win, but to not give up. Tonight was a good step in the right direction. Go Duke!

[NashvilleDevil]

Tough to watch that 2nd half. I for one still don't know how someone Hansbrough's size can get pushed 15 feet by someone Paulus' size. For all the talk about Duke players being floppers Hansbrough is the worst I have seen in 25 years.

[bjornolf]

The technical was a call that had to be made, even though I agree that it wasn't intentional. It's a technical because it was during the dead ball. I thought Hansbrough got away with knocking a couple guys to the ground during play going for rebounds, and if we'd gotten one or two of those calls, he might have fouled out.

I thought the real back breaker was when we were trying to mount the comeback, played GREAT defense for 35 seconds, looked like we were going to get the ball back, and then Hansbrough drained the 26 footer. I thought that was what pretty much ended any chance we had of coming back.

[Kedsy]

Relative to other top teams, we do not have a consistent, high percentage way of generating offense.

We scored 87 points and gave up 101. Do you really think the problem was we couldn't generate offense?

In the first half our defense managed to contain Lawson and in the second half we didn't. That was the ballgame. True, we could have stayed close despite our poor second half defense if we'd managed to hit 30% of our 3-pointers in the 2nd half, but that doesn't change the fact that we lost because of defense, pure and simple.

However, I don't think there's such as huge a talent differential as many people are saying. Lawson is a great talent, true, but so is Henderson. Hansbrough has talent, but so does Singler. Ditto for Ellington and Scheyer. When you're down to comparing Green, Thompson, Davis, and Frasor with Paulus, McClure, Smith, Thomas, and Zoubek, I'd say they have an edge but it's not so outrageous that we were grossly outtalented. We were just outplayed.

And as far as the elbow, I don't think his hand slipped off the ball, but I don't think he was trying to hit anybody. I think he was trying to get his arm free of the melee and he didn't realize where Hansbrough was.

[MADevil30]

I would call it reckless, not intentional. Kyle was looking the other way.

That was one of those tie-ups that drive me crazy, when the opposing player reaches from behind with both arms around the player with the ball and the officials still call a jump ball.

If Kyle was a little quicker, he could have flipped the ball away to a teammate before the call. He'll kick himself when he sees the replay.

I don't have the benefit of a replay but the play happened right in front of me and there was no doubt in my mind that Kyle was trying to strip the ball and just couldn't get a good handle on it.

[Vincetaylor]

Duke just does not have the talent. Pure and simple. They have a lot of heart, but only 3 guys who are good on both sides of the court. We all know who those 3 guys are. Everyone else has serious deficiencies on offense, defense, or both. After watching many old Duke-UNC games on ESPN classic over the last few days, this team most closely resembles the Duke teams of the mid-1990s. Sweet 16 caliber teams at best. If Henderson and Singler stay we will be in better shape next year, but if one of them leaves, things aren't looking good. The recruiting has got to improve.

[brumby041]

Our 9 fouls to their 3 weren't very pleasant.

Especially the one where LT fouled Hans on the elbow with his face.:confused:

[FerryFor50]

Our 9 fouls to their 3 weren't very pleasant.

Agreed. While most of the game's officiating was good, the first 10 minutes or so of the 2nd half was atrocious and inconsistent. It went from ticky tack to "let em play" at a whim. And seeing a 260lb player go flying when a 200lb player nudges him and GETS THE CALL drives me batty, especially when that 200lb player gets ran over on a constant basis without getting the same call.

[Johnboy]

Yeah, does anyone here actually think that wasn't intentional? I found it completely unforgivable, even at the time. Unless Tyler was giving him a hidden purple nurple under there or something that was just uncalled for. Looked nothing like a "slip" of the hand to me.

Look at it again, and concentrate on what he was trying to do at the time.

His hand slipped off the ball while he was trying to pop it out of the tie-up. I'm not saying it was smart or a good play (it was after the whistle), but you don't actually think he was intentionally trying to elbow Hansborough in the face, do you?

Edit to add: The technical was a correct call, however. Intentional or not, you can't allow players to keep going after the whistle and if a player is struck in a situation like htat, you're going to call a foul on the guy who struck him.

[Highlander]

I have no idea why Williams opted to go with Drew so much in the first half. With Lawson in the game UNC scored 30 points in the first 10 minutes of the game. I think they had less than 5 posessions in that time where they didn't come away with points. Then he put in Drew and we made our run and started to get a rhythm going. By the time Lawson came back in, we had a 6-8 point lead and basically traded baskets for the rest of the half. With Drew in the game, we had a good chance. With Lawson, not so much.

I thought UNC was looking gassed, and being at home with a deeper bench and the Crazies meant that would work to our advantage. Instead we were the ones who looked gassed in the 2H, as all our shots came off short. Overall, I thought we looked OK on offense in the second half except for the stretch where we kept falling/slipping/getting tripped and turning the ball over. When we did get a shot, it was usually a 3 and it was usually short. First half we were 6-9, at one point in the second we were 2-12. We may not score a large portion of our shots from the 3, but we are most certainly a jump shooting team.

It's hard to say we played good defense in the second half, especially since we gave up something like 57 points. That's more than MD scored the entire game. In K's postgame he said "We're not a good enough team to beat them when they are playing that well." In order for us to have won, we needed them to be a little off, and they weren't.

The only silver lining is that we still have a shot at sending Tyler off with a loss and a 1-3 record against us in the Ding Dong.

[rockymtn devil]

Tough one to take because it means Duke has lost four straight to the Heels in Cameron. Not pleased about that.

Further, this game was somewhat of a microcosm of this Duke team. It displayed the strengths and weaknesses of this team in great detail. For 10 minutes in the first half we were the best team in the country. Running and gunning and forcing the Heels to take bad shots just to keep up. Once the shots stopped falling the gunning ceased to occur and the Heels settled into a nice offensive rhythm. Duke just doesn't have an answer for that.

If this team gets white hot in March, look out. If it doesn't, it will lose to better basketball teams. There's no shame in that.

And, FWIW, the elbow was intentional, IMO. Whether he meant to hit TH, I'm not sure. But elbows don't just fly back unintentionally.

[miramar]

I think we can agree that this is a good team with some inherent contradictions. They don't score much in the paint, but at 33.6% they're not a great three-point shooting team either. To win against top-quality opponents they have to play lock-down defense, but they don't have the ball pressure that they need to beat top teams with quick, penetrating guards.

Fortunately, they have shown signs of getting out of their collective shooting slump, but it hasn't happened for the entire 40 minutes in the last few games.

At the start of the season I thought that the Zoubek-Thomas-Plumlee troika would do well, but that hasn't happened, which is a shame. We may need another year for Miles to develop into a major contributor.

Finally, after seeing it several times, I would say that the Singler foul wasn't flagrant, but it sure looked intentional to me. That elbow was flying.

[FireOgilvie]

I disagree with the general notion that we can't hang with these guys b/c we have nothing in the post. If you paid attention it was Lawson that completely schooled us and we seem to have less of an answer for him there anywhere else on the floor.



If we have Shelden/Brand/Whoever in the low post, Lawson doesn't get a free layup, but instead gets a face full of ball. A good low post player COMPLETELY changes Lawson's impact on this game.

[FerryFor50]

Especially the one where LT fouled Hans on the elbow with his face.:confused:

Or the one where Lance fouled the ball on a Lawson layup attempt.

[heyman25]

2010 is the beginning of Duke's rise to glory. Hairston Dawkins Thornton hopefully Barnes and perhaps Irving or Knight.Our talent level will go up a few notches.I think next year Good if Singler is back, very good if henderson stays.Nolan will be better. Maybe Scheyer will work on his shot and make the open shots next year. Williams the Plumlees and Kelly will hopefully make some kind of contribution next season,but 2010 is a sure thing. If Williams, the Plumlees and Kelly don't contribute they will be watching from the bench in 2010.

[Edouble]

They had to tonight, a credit to Duke and the rivalry, and their A game beat our A game.

We need a better A game, albeit, I think we have time.

[geraldsneighbor]

If you would've told me Duke would hold Hanstravel to 15 points, I'd say we had a damn good shot. Duke is capable of beating any team in the country, IMO. We won in CH last year and it felt like winning the super bowl. Hopefully those big wins will come in March this year like they came in February last year.

[FerryFor50]

We need a better A game, albeit, I think we have time.

I don't think we saw Duke's "A" game tonight. I'd give the effort a B, honestly.

[JDev]

This game was definitely UNC's style moreso than Duke's. UNC wants it high scoring, and 101 is pretty darn high. As many have mentioned, Duke did get 87 which is going to be enough for them to win on most nights. Carolina is such a good offensive team it would have taken a near perfect defensive effort, and that did not happen. On to BC sunday, which is another tough game. Looking at UNC's remaining schedule, and then looking at Duke's, Duke's is exponentionally tougher.

[Mike Corey]

You nailed it, IMHO, Capn Poptart, we played with heart, but as George Will once said, "Rooting all my life for the Chicago Cubs taught me that sincerity is no substitute for ability." Carolina has more talent, they are well coached and they also play with heart. A friend asked why have they lost games, and I think the answer is that they don't always have to play their best. They had to tonight, a credit to Duke and the rivalry, and their A game beat our A game.

Post of the night.

I'm just going to read this over and over.

It's all cyclical. Here's to the pendulum swinging back our way very damn soon.

[mapei]

I agree with whoever said it was more reckless than intentional. Kyle may not have intended to elbow the guy in the face, but to me he looked frustrated that Hans was still there and was trying to break free however he could. It was a dumb play on his part and it was the right call, although it wasn't flagrant.

Since the Roy era, UNC has a better team and perhaps a better program than we do. Pre-Roy, not at all. But he's turned it around. We're still very good, but they are better and their record bears that out IMO.

Our era of clear superiority was bound to taper off at some point.

[Oriole Way]

I want to see if Coach K can revamp this offense. He hasn't really done much at all since the Wake Forest game except for starting Paulus. We still take too many jumpshots and turn the ball over too much.

Paulus has made great strides towards returning to the accurate shooter he was last year, and he really put his imprint on the game in the first half. He was on fire shooting, and active on the court, making a couple of steals and leading the team. But I doubt this team can improve if he is our starting point guard because of his defensive issues. Nolan looked great in the first half as well, but inconsistency will probably continue to plague him. It's a difficult problem to solve, and we simply might not have the right players to make it work. It's very frustrating, because a staple of great Duke teams has been great point guard play, and we have lacked that for several years now.

It's becoming a broken record watching this team struggle like clockwork in February for 3 straight years. There's still plenty of season left, and so much talent to work with. But K needs to make actual adjustments offensively if we want to start improving and make a run in the tournament.

[Highlander]

Besides the positively ridiculous, ludicrous technical foul call, I felt the turning point occurred at the 11 minute mark of the 2nd half. Scheyer had a completely wide open 3, clanked it, Lance grabbed the board, clanked the put back. We looked completely deflated from there.

Lawson crushed us. The announcers (specifically G-Man) kept harping on UNC's balanced effort but Ty Lawson's effort alone completely destroyed us. We simply had no answer for them. I really didn't think Carolina's defense was all that great in the 2nd (it was terrible in the 1st), our guys just couldn't hit any open looks from deep (which was necessary for a win). Gerald was visibly winded in the 2nd so that may have had something to do with it.

I disagree with the general notion that we can't hang with these guys b/c we have nothing in the post. If you paid attention it was Lawson that completely schooled us and we seem to have less of an answer for him there anywhere else on the floor.

Back to the tech which put a huge kink into any existing momentum. That was yet another case of the refs feeling like they just have to call something especially considering who was involved with it. Everyone knows Kyle is not some retaliating kind of player. It's 100% obvious he's trying to pry the ball away which takes his elbow to Tyler's noggin. Nothing even close to maliciousness on that play, but instead the tech. Positively ridiculous. Not at all something that determined the outcome of the game, but a pathetic call nonetheless.

My take on the foul was, intentional or not, an elbow to the face is a foul. If it is during a dead ball it has to be a tech. Singler elbowed Hansbrough in the face. I think it was unintentional, but that's irrelevant.

[Ian]

I think we played an A game, it's just their A game made our A game look like a B game.

It's as Coach K said, "We're just not good enough to beat them when they play at that level."

Coach K has done a great job of coaching this year, he's gotten more out of this group than probably any other coach in the country could have done. But to beat UNC he would need to have better players to work with.

[jipops]

2010 is the beginning of Duke's rise to glory. Hairston Dawkins Thornton hopefully Barnes and perhaps Irving or Knight.Our talent level will go up a few notches.I think next year Good if Singler is back, very good if henderson stays.Nolan will be better. Maybe Scheyer will work on his shot and make the open shots next year. Williams the Plumlees and Kelly will hopefully make some kind of contribution next season,but 2010 is a sure thing. If Williams, the Plumlees and Kelly don't contribute they will be watching from the bench in 2010.

I don't necessarily think that's fair. There is glory to be had THIS season. Sure we're not as talented as the south end of 15-501 right now, but we've still got a pretty good team out there that still has a load of potential. I hate it that we're not up as up to snuff as the pale blue, but I'm also proud of the kind of guys K has put together this year. These are high character guys and it's obvious K hasn't sold out on the notion of the student-athlete. We may or may not be one of the elite teams, but I still love calling this my team.

[bjornolf]

And, FWIW, the elbow was intentional, IMO. Whether he meant to hit TH, I'm not sure. But elbows don't just fly back unintentionally.

Aw, come on. That wasn't intentional. I watched the replay about ten times on TiVo. He yanked on the ball and slipped off. His elbow went about halfway to TH's face. He yanked on it harder and slipped off again. His elbow went 3/4 of the way to Tyler's face. He grabbed and yanked even harder, and it slipped off a third time and hit Hansbrough's face. Like I said, it was stupid since the whistle had already blown, but it wasn't intentional.

Have you ever tried to move or twist something that was stuck and you keep slipping off, and even though you can't get it, you just get madder and madder and pull harder and harder? I have, and that's exactly what happens. The harder you pull, the further your arm flies off when your hand slips. This is a simple case of him getting frustrated trying to get at the ball, not at TH's face. Think of it like trying to get the lid off a greased jar. Your elbows go out and contract as you try to get it off.

[Edouble]

I don't think we saw Duke's "A" game tonight. I'd give the effort a B, honestly.

That was going to be my original post, but I'm not sure. Coach K said we played really well, but just got outplayed by a better team. Sad, but that may have been our A game. We need our A game to get to the point where our offense doesn't disappear for long stretches. The only games that come to mind where it has not disappeared for a period against a high calibre team is the Xavier game. Right now, I am hoping that our current A game will be our B game by the end of the year.

[hustleplays]

I have no idea why Williams opted to go with Drew so much in the first half. With Lawson in the game UNC scored 30 points in the first 10 minutes of the game. I think they had less than 5 posessions in that time where they didn't come away with points. Then he put in Drew and we made our run and started to get a rhythm going. By the time Lawson came back in, we had a 6-8 point lead and basically traded baskets for the rest of the half. With Drew in the game, we had a good chance. With Lawson, not so much.

I thought UNC was looking gassed, and being at home with a deeper bench and the Crazies meant that would work to our advantage. Instead we were the ones who looked gassed in the 2H, as all our shots came off short. Overall, I thought we looked OK on offense in the second half except for the stretch where we kept falling/slipping/getting tripped and turning the ball over. When we did get a shot, it was usually a 3 and it was usually short. First half we were 6-9, at one point in the second we were 2-12. We may not score a large portion of our shots from the 3, but we are most certainly a jump shooting team.

It's hard to say we played good defense in the second half, especially since we gave up something like 57 points. That's more than MD scored the entire game. In K's postgame he said "We're not a good enough team to beat them when they are playing that well." In order for us to have won, we needed them to be a little off, and they weren't.

The only silver lining is that we still have a shot at sending Tyler off with a loss and a 1-3 record against us in the Ding Dong.

Good points -- I would only add that we may have been gassed because our rotation, as is typical was limited. Think of all the guys who didn't even get on the court.

[FerryFor50]

That was going to be my original post, but I'm not sure. Coach K said we played really well, but just got outplayed by a better team. Sad, but that may have been our A game. We need our A game to get to the point where our offense doesn't disappear for long stretches. The only games that come to mind where it has not disappeared for a period against a high calibre team is the Xavier game. Right now, I am hoping that our current A game will be our B game by the end of the year.

I think that the first half showed our "A" game. The second half... not so much. The defense was simply not there (partly because UNC has some pretty good players), and the shots stopped falling. Plus the intensity dropped off considerably in the 2nd. A in the first half, C in the second.

[miramar]

Carolina shot 50.0% in the first half and 59.4% in the second. Duke shot 61.8% and 36.1%, which is why Carolina outscored Duke 57-35 in the second half (ouch!). Duke's three point shooting was 6/9 (66.7%) and 2/15 (13.3%).

[Ian]

I just don't see where our improvement is going to come from. We get good play form the wings, and I can't see Singler and G and Scheyer playing much better than they did tonight.

I don't see us getting much better at the PG or the C position. Which is where improvement has to come from. Our guys at those positions have limitations that I don't think they're going to be able to overcome.

I think this is about as good as this team can be with the make up of the team. We might luck out and have a few more jump shots go in, that's about it.

[jipops]

My take on the foul was, intentional or not, an elbow to the face is a foul. If it is during a dead ball it has to be a tech. Singler elbowed Hansbrough in the face. I think it was unintentional, but that's irrelevant.

If it is a during a dead ball it has to be a tech. Why? Even when unintentional? The refs must have thought this to be intentional, otherwise there is usually just a separation and warning. I've seen numerous instances in the past where unintentional contact has occurred after a dead ball and no foul has been called. Now if somebody is getting punched in the face like what happened to Paulus (vs. FSU last year I think?) then obviously that's a different matter. But I don't see why a foul would HAVE to be called for unintentional contact during a dead ball. That just doesn't make sense.

[geraldsneighbor]

Maybe Lawson was the deciding factor in us not having out A game in the second half. There is still hope for this club. Lance played well in spots. I think the offense lost flow late and we can most definitely build off tonight. UNC played a great second half and they should commended for that. We had to many turnovers specifically in the first 5 minutes and in the middle of the second half that built up deficits. Love to see us go ruin Tyler's senior day the way they did JJ and Shelden.

[Classof06]

Tonight confirmed what I already thought about us. We're pretty good, but we're not that good. And by that, I mean the UNCs, Pitts and UCONNs. We're just not on that level.

The question that will continue to hover over this team is "What happens when the 3s (or perimeter shots in general) don't fall?" Over the past two years, we haven't yet answered it. The second half represented all my worst fears about us. We missed shots but stayed in love with them and stopped attacking the rim. We got pounded in the paint and on the glass and though we kept Lawson under wraps for a little bit, the mismatch with Paulus was eventually exposed (Greg played a helluva game but it is what it is).

So there's no mix-up, the first half is how we have to play in March to win a national championship. That is what we're up against if we want to cut the nets down. And for six games, I'm of the opinion that that's too much to ask of any college team. If you're going to win it all, you're going to have to survive an off night from the field. I don't think we can do that against the caliber of team we'd probably face in an Elite 8 or maybe even Sweet 16 game, depending on the matchup.

[Oriole Way]

That was going to be my original post, but I'm not sure. Coach K said we played really well, but just got outplayed by a better team. Sad, but that may have been our A game. We need our A game to get to the point where our offense doesn't disappear for long stretches. The only games that come to mind where it has not disappeared for a period against a high calibre team is the Xavier game. Right now, I am hoping that our current A game will be our B game by the end of the year.

It's probably irrelevant to assign grades to the performance of the team, but I honestly think we saw Duke's A game in the first half, and Duke's C game in the second (which unfortunately has become a typical half for at least one half for every game against our toughest opponents). At the risk of sounding simplistic, I don't see how an A first half and C second half works out to an A for the whole game.

I am not all that impressed by UNC. They still don't play great defense, they just looked good tonight because we have serious offensive deficiencies. I really think they would have a very tough time beating UConn, Oklahoma, or Pitt because those teams would stifle their offense with superb defense, they all have a serious interior presence, and they have efficient offenses.

UNC looked so much better because they have more talent (not all that much, though), but more importantly because they match up with us extremely well, and their strengths - point guard play and interior play - are our exact weaknesses. They punished us because they have two major mismatches which they can exploit all game on both ends of the court, offensively especially.

[OldSchool]

I don't see us getting much better at the PG or the C position. Which is where improvement has to come from. Our guys at those positions have limitations that I don't think they're going to be able to overcome.

I'm more optimistic than you are. I think it is possible that next year we will see Zoubeck make an Abdelnaby-like improvement, if he continues 100% healthy. Also, Nolan IMO has a lot of upside, because I think what is lacking is the consistent mental focus and concentration to exploit his abilities to the fullest at the PG position, not any lack of physical skills.

Whether Z or Nolan will make much improvement this year remains to be seen, but it is quite possible both make big leaps next year.

[FerryFor50]

It's probably irrelevant to assign grades to the performance of the team, but I honestly think we saw Duke's A game in the first half, and Duke C game in the second (which unfortunately has become a typical half for at least one half for every game against our toughest opponents). At the risk of sounding simplistic, I don't see how an A first half and C second half works out to an A for the whole game.

I am not all that impressed by UNC. They still don't play great defense, they just looked good tonight because we have serious offensive deficiencies. I really think they would have a very tough time beating UConn, Oklahoma, or Pitt because those teams would stifle their offense with superb defense, they all have a serious interior presence, and they have efficient offenses.

UNC looked so much better because they have more talent (not all that much, though), but more importantly because they much up with us extremely well, and their strengths - point guard play and interior play - are our exact weaknesses. They punished us because they have two major mismatches which they can exploit all game on both ends of the court, offensively especially.

Your grades mirrored my grades. :p

Agreed about UNC. They only looked good individually, not on a team basis. I would absolutely love to see Blair take on Hansbrough. T would see his future in getting beasted. :D

[Edouble]

I just don't see where our improvement is going to come from. We get good play form the wings, and I can't see Singler and G and Scheyer playing much better than they did tonight.

I don't see us getting much better at the PG or the C position. Which is where improvement has to come from. Our guys at those positions have limitations that I don't think they're going to be able to overcome.

I think this is about as good as this team can be with the make up of the team. We might luck out and have a few more jump shots go in, that's about it.

I think that Nolan can improve. I think his struggles are mental and clearly not physical. He can be a great defender and a very good scorer. Look at those spin moves he made tonight!

We looked gassed, as so many have said, by the end of the game. What if Williams, Plumlee, and Marty had played six minutes each? Would we have lost by 20? I put a post up earlier touting the benefits of ball reversal. There are many tweakable cogs that will be examined.

[FireOgilvie]

The difference between UNC and Duke the last 4 years has been talent at PG and in the post. Coach K is a better coach than Roy, but Roy has the talent at the right positions. Try and argue about "McDonald's All-Americans" and recruiting rankings, but when it comes down to it, we have and have had giant holes in our roster at point guard and center. National championships are all about recruiting.

[geraldsneighbor]

Your grades mirrored my grades. :p

Agreed about UNC. They only looked good individually, not on a team basis. I would absolutely love to see Blair take on Hansbrough. T would see his future in getting beasted. :D

Maybe his future is hitting 22 foot jump shots....okay I'm kidding.haha

[Oriole Way]

Your grades mirrored my grades. :p

Agreed about UNC. They only looked good individually, not on a team basis. I would absolutely love to see Blair take on Hansbrough. T would see his future in getting beasted. :D

Yep, after making my post, I saw your earlier post where you evaluated the two halves the same way I did.

Safe to say we took away similar impressions of the game.

[FerryFor50]

Maybe his future is hitting 22 foot jump shots....okay I'm kidding.haha

Too soon, man. Too soon. :p

[concrete]

Look at it again, and concentrate on what he was trying to do at the time.

His hand slipped off the ball while he was trying to pop it out of the tie-up. I'm not saying it was smart or a good play (it was after the whistle), but you don't actually think he was intentionally trying to elbow Hansborough in the face, do you?

Edit to add: The technical was a correct call, however. Intentional or not, you can't allow players to keep going after the whistle and if a player is struck in a situation like htat, you're going to call a foul on the guy who struck him.



horrible call. You call a technical because his hand slipped off the ball and accidently hit him with an elbow? What's next?


I guess if you accidently poke someone in the eye going for a rebound that should be a technical?

the refs were pro-UNC as evident from the foul shooting and the # of outbursts coach K had compared to Roy.

I mean from charges, to ticky tacks, to jump ball calls when the UNC player was out of bounds, to over the back calls on us and non-calls on UNC it was very tilted. The thing was we came back from the deficit without the benefit of foul shooting, just pure good basketball. However, we were handcuffed by the foul calling in the 2nd half

[FerryFor50]

Yep, after making my post, I saw your earlier post where you evaluated the two halves the same way I did.

Safe to say we took away similar impressions of the game.

Did you sit in silence, shaking your head for the last 7 minutes of the game, too?

[ForeverBlowingBubbles]

Another extremely entertaining game all though the turnout wasn't what was hoped. I still had a lot of fun watching and again was not too upset by the loss.

It's tough - extremely tough to compete with championship quality teams in a championship like atmospheres without a dominant post or point guard presence.

However, it can be done as we showed for a stretch tonight and in previous games during the season. It's extremely impressive that we've been able to accomplish so much with the team we have.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

My quick game thoughts...and I'm out 'till tomorrow evening...

1) RW did a nice job subbing for starters in the first half. UNC looked much fresher than Duke in the 2nd. That 61% shooting was sick.
2) Duke's hot shooting in the first took a lot out of them.
3) No answer for Lawson as others note. He slacked in the first and got way more aggressive in the 2nd..I doubt that was by design tho...he should't do that.
4)Duke didn't get anywhere near enough scoring from 3 post players...Thomas, Zoubek, McClure
5)UNC's defense was pretty good in crunch time in the second half. They rebounded strong too.
6)UNC is still a mentally challenged team. Lots of stupid plays on their part. They lack a feel for when they should use patience.
7)I thought Paulus had a great first half. Lots of energy and great shooting. Overmatched in the 2nd.
8) Singlers elbow was no big deal, but they had to call it. Switch roles and have TH do that to Singler and the place would have went nuts. Singler had a nice game.


Long way to go this season...
Good night.

[concrete]

I think that Nolan can improve. I think his struggles are mental and clearly not physical. He can be a great defender and a very good scorer. Look at those spin moves he made tonight!

We looked gassed, as so many have said, by the end of the game. What if Williams, Plumlee, and Marty had played six minutes each? Would we have lost by 20? I put a post up earlier touting the benefits of ball reversal. There are many tweakable cogs that will be examined.


I agree. Big difference between Roy and K. Roy played his freshmen, big minutse. Even that backup PG who sucked whenever he was in the game got PT.

[brevity]

Duke went 11-18 (62%), UNC went 27-31 (88%).

Carolina gets all the calls!

Kidding. I think a lot of people (especially those at ESPN) need to re-evaluate the clear dichotomy they seem to create between these two teams.

Duke's so-called great defense allowed 101 points. UNC's so-called lousy defense came up with some critical steals and points off turnovers.

UNC's so-called magnificent post presence was a limited factor, and times a non-factor. Duke's so-called lack of a post presence was only outrebounded 33-30, and had 4 more offensive rebounds.

For all the talk about Duke's so-called depth and UNC's so-called short bench, the reserves were statistically similar.

I thought we played a very good game, one of our better 40-minute efforts in the new year. But Carolina hasn't performed this well in months. Sure, a few offensive tweaks (and a less humid floor) may have narrowed the gap some, and the Devils still keep shooting threes until they have to shoot threes. But at least this year's squad is going after the ball more and giving us second chances in many of our possessions, something that squads in the recent past couldn't always claim.

This one didn't hurt that much.

[Ian]

Nolan Smith is a scorer and great in the open floor and in transition.

But he doesn't not have the ball handling/dribbling skills to drive in the half court consistently. He gets stripped way too often.

We don't have any one that can consistently take it to the rim against a set defense and finish in traffic. GH is probably the only one who comes close. Even when we drive most of the time it's to set up more long range jumpers. We rarely drive to set up post players for lay ups, or drive to score.

[Oriole Way]

Did you sit in silence, shaking your head for the last 7 minutes of the game, too?

I did indeed shake my head for most of the second half. I wasn't surprised by what I saw, because we've seen it happen with this team so many times. I was very pleasantly surprised by our hot shooting first half, but knew we still had our work cut out for us in order to overcome UNC's inherent advantages.

The technical against Kyle right off the bat in the second half was a bad omen. You could feel a distinct momentum change in Cameron, and it was all downhill from there.

[CDu]

Well, a few things:

1. Carolina is the more talented team. They can match our big three (Singler, Henderson, Scheyer) with Hansbrough, Green, and Ellington, and then they can bring Lawson to the table. He is clearly better than Smith and Paulus. Thompson and Davis are better than Thomas and Zoubek.

2. Lawson was the difference. We did well against Hansbrough, but Lawson just shredded anybody who guarded him in the second half. If you can't stay in front of him, he's devastating. Tonight, neither Smith nor Paulus could stay in front of him in the second half, and it destroyed us.

3. We made some REALLY bad turnovers, and UNC capitalized.

4. For a good defensive team (and we have been that), UNC made us look pretty bad. We are going to have to do better than giving up 101 points if we have any hope of a deep tourney run. Luckily, we won't face any other teams with that kind of offensive firepower.

To beat UNC, we have to play our absolute best and/or UNC has to have an off night. If they play their A game and we do as well, we will lose.

Tough loss to a more talented team. They played better and deserved to win. Hopefully we d

[FerryFor50]

I did indeed shake my head for most of the second half. I wasn't surprised by what I saw, because we've seen it happen with this team so many times. I was very pleasantly surprised by our hot shooting first half, but knew we still had our work cut out for us in order to overcome UNC's inherent advantages.

The technical against Kyle right off the bat in the second half was a bad omen. You could feel a distinct momentum change in Cameron, and it was all downhill from there.

Watching them slip and slide on the floor for turnovers, jack up missed three after missed three, and watching Lawson just abuse whoever was trying to guard him... ugh.

The tech and the BS 26 footer by Hansbrough didn't help matters, either.

[chrisM]

I have no idea why Williams opted to go with Drew so much in the first half. [CM... I removed much of his point here] With Drew in the game, we had a good chance. With Lawson, not so much.

I thought UNC was looking gassed, and being at home with a deeper bench and the Crazies meant that would work to our advantage. Instead we were the ones who looked gassed in the 2H, as all our shots came off short.

Perhaps these two thoughts are related?

[jipops]

Edit to add: The technical was a correct call, however. Intentional or not, you can't allow players to keep going after the whistle and if a player is struck in a situation like htat, you're going to call a foul on the guy who struck him.

I'm fundamentally disagreeing with this because there is no precedent for it. The usual case for a situation like this is for the refs to separate bodies while the ball is dead. Since it was so obvious there was no malicious intent but only incidental contact, there was nothing to warrant a technical. I'm betting that the presence of a high profile player is what actually led to this call. Similar cases have occurred in the past in other games where there has been no call. The usual case is a clear-out by the refs and a verbal warning to make sure everything is still under control. This will happen again in another game, pay attention to see if the same call is made. I guarantee it won't be.

I've argued this enough already though, it's really somewhat pointless to the rest of the game though it did kill momentum.

[Kfanarmy]

Actually, I thought our most effective defender on Lawson was Dave, when he found himself on switches on Lawson.


Agreed Lawson gave up the ball when he looked up and saw Dave.

[chrisM]

I'm fundamentally disagreeing with this because there is no precedent for it. The usual case for a situation like this is for the refs to separate bodies while the ball is dead. Since it was so obvious there was no malicious intent but only incidental contact, there was nothing to warrant a technical. I'm betting that the presence of a high profile player is what actually led to this call. Similar cases have occurred in the past in other games where there has been no call. The usual case is a clear-out by the refs and a verbal warning to make sure everything is still under control. This will happen again in another game, pay attention to see if the same call is made. I guarantee it won't be.


Basically, Singler suffered for the sins of Gerald Henderson. If there wasn't that history of Duke players wailing on TH, that call probably doesn't get made.

As to momentum, Duke pushed the lead up to 8 *after* the technical.

[Oriole Way]

I agree. Big difference between Roy and K. Roy played his freshmen, big minutse. Even that backup PG who sucked whenever he was in the game got PT.

I still think this is a problem K has - not developing his young talented players.

I know some posters like Bob Green think that Roy Williams uses his bench too much, but I think it's more of a strength than a weakness, and it showed tonight.

I don't buy for a second that Duke wasn't winded in the second half, and that Williams and Plumlee, if they had gotten significantly more minutes earlier this season, wouldn't have been able to hold their own tonight for some important minutes, ultimately allowing our team to perform a little better in the second half. It wouldn't have changed the outcome, but I think we'd be a better team if K had used those two talented freshman more than he has up until this point.

[Edouble]

It's probably irrelevant to assign grades to the performance of the team, but I honestly think we saw Duke's A game in the first half, and Duke's C game in the second (which unfortunately has become a typical half for at least one half for every game against our toughest opponents). At the risk of sounding simplistic, I don't see how an A first half and C second half works out to an A for the whole game.

I am not all that impressed by UNC. They still don't play great defense, they just looked good tonight because we have serious offensive deficiencies. I really think they would have a very tough time beating UConn, Oklahoma, or Pitt because those teams would stifle their offense with superb defense, they all have a serious interior presence, and they have efficient offenses.

UNC looked so much better because they have more talent (not all that much, though), but more importantly because they match up with us extremely well, and their strengths - point guard play and interior play - are our exact weaknesses. They punished us because they have two major mismatches which they can exploit all game on both ends of the court, offensively especially.

I just don't think that we've proven yet that we can play like we played for the last 12 minutes of the first half for a full 40 minutes. At our best, IMHO, we play 1/3 of the game lights out awesome, 1/3 pretty good, and 1/3 somewhere between pretty good and pretty lost. I think that right now, February 12, 2009, tonight's performance was our A game, because that is the best that we have showed that we can play for a full game to date. If we bring our best against a lower level of competition, like Maryland, it looks a lot better, on the court and on the scoreboard. Against the 'Heels, it's not as much of a punch and that last 1/3 killed us. Thus I would define tonight's performance as our A game: the best that we can do for a full forty minutes.

[EarlJam]

Anyone notice something very familiar tonight? Lawson looked like Jason Williams attacking the basket in the second half.

He drove, always to the right side. We could not stop him. Jason Williams.

Kudos to him. We had no answer. Great adjustment for UNC.....bastards.


-EJ

[Oriole Way]

I just don't think that we've proven yet that we can play like we played for the last 12 minutes of the first half for a full 40 minutes. At our best, IMHO, we play 1/3 of the game lights out awesome, 1/3 pretty good, and 1/3 somewhere between pretty good and pretty lost. I think that right now, February 12, 2009, tonight's performance was our A game, because that is the best that we have showed that we can play for a full game to date. If we bring our best against a lower level of competition, like Maryland, it looks a lot better, on the court and on the scoreboard. Against the 'Heels, it's not as much of a punch and that last 1/3 killed us. Thus I would define tonight's performance as our A game: the best that we can do for a full forty minutes.

I agree with the first bolded statement (although I qualify it below). However, I think this team is capable of a full 40 minutes of an A game, even against a top-notch team. But that will happen only if and when K addresses our problems on offense.

Also, I would contend that our game against Xavier was an A game for 40 minutes. We let up a bit in the second half because the game was well in hand, but if some scrub from Xavier doesn't go bonkers hitting 3's trying to pad his stats, that would have been a 30-pt blowout of a top 25 team. Granted, Xavier's not all that good, but they're a solid tournament team.

Thus, I would respectfully disagree with your second bolded statement, but we are in the same boat when it comes to evaluating this season's Duke team.

[WhiteboardGuy]

There is no sense in complaining about a technical foul when we were outscored by 22(!) in the second half.

[jv001]

I just don't think that we've proven yet that we can play like we played for the last 12 minutes of the first half for a full 40 minutes. At our best, IMHO, we play 1/3 of the game lights out awesome, 1/3 pretty good, and 1/3 somewhere between pretty good and pretty lost. I think that right now, February 12, 2009, tonight's performance was our A game, because that is the best that we have showed that we can play for a full game to date. If we bring our best against a lower level of competition, like Maryland, it looks a lot better, on the court and on the scoreboard. Against the 'Heels, it's not as much of a punch and that last 1/3 killed us. Thus I would define tonight's performance as our A game: the best that we can do for a full forty minutes.

We looked good in the first half because we hit a good percentage of our 3 point shots. In the 2nd half we could not buy one. I don't care what people say, we seem to be one dimensional at times. I think it's a matter of our offensive scheme more than anything else. In March we would need to shoot lights out for several games to make a good run in the NCAA tournament. In the past that has not happened. It's evident to anyone that can see we are weak at the point(defense) and weak in the post(offense). We'll just play the cards(players) that have been dealt us. Go Duke!

[Edouble]

I still think this is a problem K has - not developing his young talented players.

I sort of disagree. Frosh Shelden split minutes with senior Casey Sanders. Even Daniel Ewing got minutes as a freshman on the Duhon-Williams backcourt. There are many more examples of freshman getting PT on upperclassman heavy squads.

Of course, maybe I am incorrectly interpretting "developing" with getting PT. Perhaps you think that Ewing and Shelden were developed and EWill and Plumlee need developing?

Regardless, I wish that EWill and Plumlee has gotten in the game tonight.

[jv001]

There is no sense in complaining about a technical foul when we were outscored by 22(!) in the second half.

You make a great point. This play did not beat us as we had plenty of time to regroup. It was just a matter of time that our jerking the ball away on tie ups was going to hurt us. Yeh that's being tough. Playing defense for 40 mins now that's being tough. Go Duke!

[geraldsneighbor]

It also isn't like we took 20 3's in the first half. Duke didn't attempt a 3 til inside the 12 minute timeout and was highly efficient on the triples they did attempt. I'm of the thought that the open looks that Scheyer and Henderson had rattle out need to go down to win and I don't think that makes you too much of a 3-pt shooting team. Your only asking talented players to knock down open looks and tonight alot of them late in the game didn't fall. Doesn't mean we suck.

[EarlJam]

FYI - Totally narcissistic. ESPN just did a segment that included comparing J. Williams to Lawson. Listen to me. I know what I'm talking about.

-EJ

[Oriole Way]

I sort of disagree. Frosh Shelden split minutes with senior Casey Sanders. Even Daniel Ewing got minutes as a freshman on the Duhon-Williams backcourt. There are many more examples of freshman getting PT on upperclassman heavy squads.

Of course, maybe I am incorrectly interpretting "developing" with getting PT. Perhaps you think that Ewing and Shelden were developed and EWill and Plumlee need developing?

Regardless, I wish that EWill and Plumlee has gotten in the game tonight.

Yes, in the sense that Shelden and Ewing were ready to contribute right away. E-Will and Plumlee need more minutes to gain experience and improve so that they might eventually contribute.

Does that make sense?

I'm not saying K never plays freshman minutes... obviously Singler, Scheyer, and Henderson are evidence of the exact opposite. But there are instances where it seems like he decides a player is incapable of contributing, so they don't see the floor. I imagine that is one reason Eric Boateng, Jamal Boykin, and Taylor King left the program. Before anyone jumps on me, yes, I am aware Boateng is a non-factor at ASU, Boykin left primarily for family reasons, and King did little else but shoot ill-advised 3-pt bricks against good opponents. But those players may have stayed, and more importantly improved throughout the course of the season to the point of helping the team in March, if they had gotten a lot more time. At least you would have known for sure if they could contribute, instead of playing a shorter rotation and flaming out in the tournament with an exhausted, short rotation.

[JBDuke]

I'm fundamentally disagreeing with this because there is no precedent for it. The usual case for a situation like this is for the refs to separate bodies while the ball is dead. Since it was so obvious there was no malicious intent but only incidental contact, there was nothing to warrant a technical. I'm betting that the presence of a high profile player is what actually led to this call. Similar cases have occurred in the past in other games where there has been no call. The usual case is a clear-out by the refs and a verbal warning to make sure everything is still under control. This will happen again in another game, pay attention to see if the same call is made. I guarantee it won't be.

I've argued this enough already though, it's really somewhat pointless to the rest of the game though it did kill momentum.

From the NCAA rule book:

"Contact that occurs after a whistle has blown, that is not incidental and cannot be ignored, by rule, must be penalized with a technical foul."

It could be argued whether or not Kyle's elbow could have been ignored, but that's kind of hard to do in that situation. As Feldspar has said in another thread, the ref HAS to make the obvious call.

I think it was the right call. And for those that say that Kyle isn't that type of player, I'd ask you to review the last few games. I've noticed him getting considerably nastier recently. This wasn't that out of character. I'm not saying he was looking to hurt anyone - just that he could easily have been lashing out.

[jv001]

It also isn't like we took 20 3's in the first half. Duke didn't attempt a 3 til inside the 12 minute timeout and was highly efficient on the triples they did attempt. I'm of the thought that the open looks that Scheyer and Henderson had rattle out need to go down to win and I don't think that makes you too much of a 3-pt shooting team. Your only asking talented players to knock down open looks and tonight alot of them late in the game didn't fall. Doesn't mean we suck.

geraldsneighbor I agree we don't exactly suck, but our defense on the ball(lawson) did suck. As for 3 point shooting, it's been part of K's offense for a long time. I just wish we had some inside -outside movement of the ball. It just seems we dribble around the perimeter and hand the ball off like a QB to a running back. Go Duke!

[Edouble]

I agree with the first bolded statement (although I qualify it below). However, I think this team is capable of a full 40 minutes of an A game, even against a top-notch team. But that will happen only if and when K addresses our problems on offense.

Also, I would contend that our game against Xavier was an A game for 40 minutes. We let up a bit in the second half because the game was well in hand, but if some scrub from Xavier doesn't go bonkers hitting 3's trying to pad his stats, that would have been a 30-pt blowout of a top 25 team. Granted, Xavier's not all that good, but they're a solid tournament team.

Thus, I would respectfully disagree with your second bolded statement, but we are in the same boat when it comes to evaluating this season's Duke team.

Ha ha. Yeah, I think we are pretty close to agreeing. In an earlier post, I wrote that I thought that the Xavier game was the only time this year that we'd played a full forty minutes of top level ball against top level competition, and I edited this out of my last post b/c I thought that it was getting a little convoluted and abstract.

I, too, think we are capable of the A game that we all want to have, that we have seen in spurts and even lengthy segments during conference play. We have a lot of talented players to work with, and there are tons of things that can be tweaked on the offensive end.

I'll wrap up this war of semantics with a "GO DUKE!!!".

[EarlJam]

From the NCAA rule book:

"Contact that occurs after a whistle has blown, that is not incidental and cannot be ignored, by rule, must be penalized with a technical foul."

It could be argued whether or not Kyle's elbow could have been ignored, but that's kind of hard to do in that situation. As Feldspar has said in another thread, the ref HAS to make the obvious call.

I think it was the right call. And for those that say that Kyle isn't that type of player, I'd ask you to review the last few games. I've noticed him getting considerably nastier recently. This wasn't that out of character. I'm not saying he was looking to hurt anyone - just that he could easily have been lashing out.

GREAT post JBDuke. I totally agree with everything you just wrote. Singler just doesn't seem to have that "seniority?" to get by with it like the Laettners of the world. Still, I have to admit I love the attitude.


But hey, the refs did NOT decide this game. Hansblahblah's 200+ yards flopped aside, Duke got tired, and instead of playing defense with their whole bodies (legs, arms, etc.), they were exhausted and started laying off and slapping with arms.

Not the refs fault. We lost fair and square.

-EJ

[jipops]

From the NCAA rule book:

"Contact that occurs after a whistle has blown, that is not incidental and cannot be ignored, by rule, must be penalized with a technical foul."

It could be argued whether or not Kyle's elbow could have been ignored, but that's kind of hard to do in that situation. As Feldspar has said in another thread, the ref HAS to make the obvious call.

I think it was the right call. And for those that say that Kyle isn't that type of player, I'd ask you to review the last few games. I've noticed him getting considerably nastier recently. This wasn't that out of character. I'm not saying he was looking to hurt anyone - just that he could easily have been lashing out.

Exactly "Contact that occurs after a whistle has blown, that is not incidental and cannot be ignored, by rule, must be penalized with a technical foul." So being the case that this was obviously incidental it does not fall under this rule. Again, I've seen this so many times before not result in a technical foul.

Kyle's in a position where he's constantly battling guys inside that have considerable size over him. A relative amount of nastiness is required though he's never done it in a way that's out of line. It's the kind of nastiness and fight we want to see. What you may also be seeing his frustration showing from some previous games where he wasn't shooting very well.

[Kfanarmy]

I was a bit surprised Zoubek was out so long, from about the 12 minute mark on, in the second half. I thought the greatest contribution he made late in the 1st half was providing driving lanes...he blocks out well on the offensive end, creating lanes for the scorers...when the long ball aint working, someone has to provide a presence on the inside that requires the other team to maintain a guarding position...he didn't shoot well, had three fouls, but I think his presence prevented Carolina from coming back over the final 4 minutes of the 1st half.

I also thought, more than anything else, the shooters got tentative after they missed some shots around the 16 minute mark or so of the 2nd half. There were several instances where a pump fake and immediate jump shot would have drawn a foul, but guys seemed to be a bit afraid to miss, hesitated, and ultimately missed once their rhythm was off...they simply weren't attacking like they had been. I'd rather see them shoot in rhythm and miss then be tentative and miss. Obviously Carolina played better defensively in the 2nd half, but the point differential, and their increased scoring percentage were more about Duke missing shots, and Carolina's ability to attack after a missed shot.

The box score: Duke and Carolina made the same number of buckets, with Duke hitting two more threes. Earlier poster mentioned it, but point differential lies totally in foul shooting. Duke didn't do well at the line tonight, missed some front ends and wasn't aggressive enough in the second half...but that gets back to not having a big body in the middle helping to create driving lanes and poor outside shooting.

For those who think the talent level is much different, I completely disagree. Hit front ends of one and ones, get a presence inside and create some foul shooting by driving and this game is up for grabs going down the stretch.

[greybeard]

I think that the one Duke player who could have maybe made a difference was Zoubek, who played okay I suppose, but I expected more of him offensively than he seems prepared to demand. I do not know what happened, I used to see when he first arrived and instinct to set a guy up and get an edge, whether he got the ball or not, there was a possibility of a catch with an angle for an easy score.

More and more I see Zoubs look for that less and less. Too many back screens, moving away from the ball, without returning for a catch and little turnaround.

This season is not over yet and darn I want to see that from Zoubek in a game that counts. To stand up and create reception opportunities for himself with fire in his eyes. That he has not been doing that more and more is the second most disappointing aspect of this season for me. That he is doing it less and less is the most.

I like the guy and think that he has the talent to dominate smaller players like UNC presented against him, even for short minutes. I'm still waiting to see it; the fat lady ain't sung. It was precisely in a game like this that I thought Zoubs could make a meaningful contribution on offense. I'd love to see him try. Not saying the outcome would have been different if the Zoubek I envision had showed up. I'd love to see that from him before the season is over, because I think it would be wonderful for Brian himself and that his team could use that from him. It's time Brian; don't worry about a thing, I'll have your back!

Some really exceptional play by a lot of Duke players, just not enough.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

He had a terrific first half, but did not continue that level of play after halftime.

[ice-9]

We scored 87 points and gave up 101. Do you really think the problem was we couldn't generate offense?

It's two sides of the same coin. We could've won by defending better or by scoring more points, but I don't look at the 87 and automatically think "that's good enough" given the number of possessions in this game. Yes, Ty Lawson was unstoppable, but could we have really done anything different? He has the speed to burn us and he'll probably keep doing it again and again even if we played UNC ten more times. But if our jumpshot is falling, we can beat UNC even when Lawson is slicing us like swiss cheese.

When looking at our current team, I believe the biggest potential for improvement is in our offense not our defense, especially when it comes to our postseason. And our offense as it is presently constituted relies on made jumpshots (and usually long ones too).

[Kfanarmy]

The only real weakness I see, at this point, is the limited experience some of the backups have. Would have been interesting to see Duke use most everyone on the bench through the second half to see if they could have run Carolina out of the gym...experience would have been invaluable...obviously if this group had won, I'd be singing a different song.:eek:

[Bob Green]

UNC won in Cameron in 1982, 1983, 1984, and 1985. So I thought about players on those teams. Wasn't Buzz Peterson a senior in 1985?

I read in one of the pregame stories that Buzz Peterson missed one of the games due to injury so he didn't participate in all four wins. I don't remember which story so I can't provide a link.

[Kfanarmy]

He had a terrific first half, but did not continue that level of play after halftime.

He only played 5 minutes at the beginning of the 2nd half...when he went out around 12:30 or so, the game was tied, I believe

[nobodyatall]

De-lurking for a couple comments...

So, here is the thing that bugs me about this game (and the season). Singler makes a step back 3 with about 14 minutes to go in the second half. He at that point is the leading scorer shooting i think 7 for 12 with 19 points.

His next shot is at about 4 minutes to go in the game.

How on earth does the guy leading your team in scoring for the game and the season go 10 minutes without taking a shot in the second half? A half that as a team you shoot 36.6% in.

This Duke team is one where you have a couple of really good players, and some very good role players. But instead of running an offense that looks to establish those two players, and work off of them, they tend to go long stretches where these guys don't find the ball or their shots.

It works against lesser defensive teams, but against team that can put the clamps down, even if for stretches, Duke is really going to have to play to their strengths.

[calltheobvious]

There's nothing about losing to those guys that doesn't stink. But I'm actually far more optimistic than most seem to be about this game.

Mark it down: Nolan Smith arrived tonight. I know he had several major defensive lapses and some careless giveaways, but I'm going to hang my hat on the idea that no one was going to stop a Lawson-led team tonight.

Nolan had three plays that are going to be put on a five-minute loop by the staff, then screened for Smith followed by K saying, "Son, do you see what you're capable of? Do you see what not being hesitant does for your game and our team?"

Those three plays were absolute explosions, the likes of which we haven't seen since 2008. If Smith becomes a significant penetrating force this team experiences a true paradigm shift. One more scoring threat, wing jumpers becoming more open as defenses sag to prevent penetration, more trips to the foul line, more unbudgeted bench time for foul-plagued opponents.

Maybe what I saw were simply random flashes in the pan, but I don't think so. We saw this team take an important, if shrouded step forward tonight.

Danny Green's senior day will not end with his happy-dance.

[COYS]

I still think this is a problem K has - not developing his young talented players.

I know some posters like Bob Green think that Roy Williams uses his bench too much, but I think it's more of a strength than a weakness, and it showed tonight.

I don't buy for a second that Duke wasn't winded in the second half, and that Williams and Plumlee, if they had gotten significantly more minutes earlier this season, wouldn't have been able to hold their own tonight for some important minutes, ultimately allowing our team to perform a little better in the second half. It wouldn't have changed the outcome, but I think we'd be a better team if K had used those two talented freshman more than he has up until this point.

The MPG for UNC stars and DUke stars do not give any weight to this argument: Hanstravel, Lawson, and Ellington played 33, 34, and 34 minutes respectively. Singler, Scheyer, and Henderson played 33, 33, and 34 minutes, respectively. Paulus logged 28, Smith 22 with Green and Thompson getting 24 each. As far as the bench is concerned, Copeland got 3 token minutes, Drew got 7 minutes in which he played poorly, and then Frasor got 27 minutes and Davis 14. The Duke bench got 22 and 20 from Smith and McClure and Z got 9. The minutes distribution was almost equal on both sides: http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=290420150

I think EWil and Plumlee will be solid players in the future, but they have gotten decent minutes at time this year and have shown flashes, but also have shown a propensity to make many mistakes. The plus/minus stats bear this out. Ed Davis was the only Freshman to play well, tonight, and he was near the top of the recruiting charts. This is what you'd expect of a player rated as highly as he was. Drew looked terrible. Honestly, I thought players from both teams looked pretty fresh and ready to go by games end. I just can't believe that 33-34 minutes is too much for players of the calibre of Henderson, Scheyer, and Singler if it's not too much for Ellington, Lawson, and Hanstravel.

[COYS]

For those who think the talent level is much different, I completely disagree. Hit front ends of one and ones, get a presence inside and create some foul shooting by driving and this game is up for grabs going down the stretch.

And, I might add, someone take away Lawson's right hand! I agree that he was the difference maker tonight, but when we forced him to go left and stay left, he was far, far, far less effective. I thought we did that very well for a while and then got away from that in the second half.

Ultimately, I don't buy the "clearly out-talented" argument. Let's say Frasor goes 1/3 instead of 3/3 from deep, Hanstravel misses that insane (and deflating) 22 foot fadeaway three, and we knock down two more open three pointers. That's nine points away from UNC and six more for us, which makes the game far more interesting even if we still give UNC a huge advantage at the free throw line. We may have a smaller margin for error than UNC and UNC may have a little bit more offensive firepower, but if we can hit our wide open threes more consistently, we can win this game and we certainly can beat them in CH next month.

[COYS]

De-lurking for a couple comments...

So, here is the thing that bugs me about this game (and the season). Singler makes a step back 3 with about 14 minutes to go in the second half. He at that point is the leading scorer shooting i think 7 for 12 with 19 points.

His next shot is at about 4 minutes to go in the game.

How on earth does the guy leading your team in scoring for the game and the season go 10 minutes without taking a shot in the second half? A half that as a team you shoot 36.6% in.

This Duke team is one where you have a couple of really good players, and some very good role players. But instead of running an offense that looks to establish those two players, and work off of them, they tend to go long stretches where these guys don't find the ball or their shots.

It works against lesser defensive teams, but against team that can put the clamps down, even if for stretches, Duke is really going to have to play to their strengths.

Sorry to post yet again, but I am curious to see how our offense evolves after this game. I loved how we got the ball to Scheyer through the motion offense when he cut across the lane around the elbow instead of behind the three point line. We also found him a few times on the baseline. He's very dangerous when he's inside the defense and had some nice dishes and some good scores close to the basket. It really allows him to be a playmaker. I also loved how Nolan looked to attack more even if he had an inconsistent game. I hope that this game was a confidence boost for him in that he made some great plays against a great team. I felt like our movement off the ball was better tonight most of the time. However, it does seem like we get away from the hot hand a little too much. We're still developing an offensive identity and I don't think the team or the coaches have quite figured out how to best use all of our team's strengths. THis is a good thing, however, because we still have room to improve.

Also, as a side note, I absolutely love McClure, but I go to sleep dreaming of him suddenly developing a dangerous jump shot. Just getting 6 points from him from a few open looks each night would be incredible.

[CameronCrazy'11]

It seemed like Duke had one more run it that never happened. Every time we looked about to bust out at the end, something would happened. Scheyer and Henderson both just slipped and turned it over. Paulus fumbled a pass. Hanstravel drained a three. It was really a shame we couldn't get a run going.

[mo.st.dukie]

There's nothing about losing to those guys that doesn't stink. But I'm actually far more optimistic than most seem to be about this game.

Mark it down: Nolan Smith arrived tonight. I know he had several major defensive lapses and some careless giveaways, but I'm going to hang my hat on the idea that no one was going to stop a Lawson-led team tonight.

Nolan had three plays that are going to be put on a five-minute loop by the staff, then screened for Smith followed by K saying, "Son, do you see what you're capable of? Do you see what not being hesitant does for your game and our team?"

Those three plays were absolute explosions, the likes of which we haven't seen since 2008. If Smith becomes a significant penetrating force this team experiences a true paradigm shift. One more scoring threat, wing jumpers becoming more open as defenses sag to prevent penetration, more trips to the foul line, more unbudgeted bench time for foul-plagued opponents.

Maybe what I saw were simply random flashes in the pan, but I don't think so. We saw this team take an important, if shrouded step forward tonight.

Danny Green's senior day will not end with his happy-dance.

I agree 100%. That spin move he had in transition was sensational.

[Oriole Way]

The MPG for UNC stars and DUke stars do not give any weight to this argument: Hanstravel, Lawson, and Ellington played 33, 34, and 34 minutes respectively. Singler, Scheyer, and Henderson played 33, 33, and 34 minutes, respectively. Paulus logged 28, Smith 22 with Green and Thompson getting 24 each. As far as the bench is concerned, Copeland got 3 token minutes, Drew got 7 minutes in which he played poorly, and then Frasor got 27 minutes and Davis 14. The Duke bench got 22 and 20 from Smith and McClure and Z got 9. The minutes distribution was almost equal on both sides: http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=290420150

I think EWil and Plumlee will be solid players in the future, but they have gotten decent minutes at time this year and have shown flashes, but also have shown a propensity to make many mistakes. The plus/minus stats bear this out. Ed Davis was the only Freshman to play well, tonight, and he was near the top of the recruiting charts. This is what you'd expect of a player rated as highly as he was. Drew looked terrible. Honestly, I thought players from both teams looked pretty fresh and ready to go by games end. I just can't believe that 33-34 minutes is too much for players of the calibre of Henderson, Scheyer, and Singler if it's not too much for Ellington, Lawson, and Hanstravel.

I could be wrong but several of our turnovers towards the end of the game (Scheyer falling down, Henderson tripping) as well as our inability to grab a couple of key rebounds might have been because we were tired (italics to convey speculation, not sarcasm). It might have just been bad luck, but to me they looked a tad winded. Again, just speculating, and I agree for the most part these kids shouldn't be too tired whether they play 32 minutes or 35.

And like I said, Plumlee and Williams wouldn't have made a difference tonight given the fact they haven't gotten substantial minutes up until now, and they haven't produced when they have played. But it's the lack of minutes prior to this point that bothers me. It's just my feeling that those two kids would be better players if they had gotten more playing time to learn from (and play through) their mistakes, and adapt to the college game. Practice time pales in comparison to the first-hand experience of game situations. Larry Drew struggled in his 7 minutes to tonight, but UNC won handily and those minutes will be a valuable experience for him when he's older.

I don't think plus/minus stats should be the only measuring stick which dictates whether they get more time to begin with anyway, but two big reasons Williams and Plumlee are so inefficient in regards to +/- are

1. they are used for very brief stretches and they are yanked as soon as they make a mistake, which could possibly further compound their problems by affecting their confidence - either hindering their assertiveness or causing them to press hard and do too much.

2. they have gotten most of their minutes in the second halves of blowouts playing with the rest of the end of the bench, so of course their plus/minus will be much worse than if they had gotten similar minutes with the starters.

The bottom line is that those two bring skills to the table which this team could use. I think it's a mistake that we didn't give them more time to develop earlier in the season.

[Lulu]

I'm honestly very surprised at the number of people here who think Kyle's elbow was unintentional. To me, it seems there's a lot of tinted eyewear, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Everyone is suggesting to watch the replay, which I of course have done, but it emphasizes the exact opposite case to me.

Now, I'm not saying he was aiming at Hanbrough's lip/face. But Kyle threw an elbow knowing that a large part of Hansbrough was behind him. For those who say "he wasn't looking...", c'mon, when you're laying on someone you don't have to be looking back at them to know where they are. Kyle threw an elbow that was intended to hopefully hit some part of Hansbrough, face or wherever it landed probably wasn't a concern. He was just frustrated. And Kyle is a bit of a dirty player at times if no one has noticed. I don't normally mind it, as I've felt we need to fight back at some of the nastiness thrown our way by teams like Georgia Tech in recent history, but I did mind it at that particular point in this game, and adding to Kyle's foul count wasn't exactly good either.

I don't think his hand "slipping" on the ball had anything to do with it. His elbow came back way to far, and forcefully, and it just wasn't natural looking as a "slip". At best, he could have been feigning a slip for the purpose of throwing the elbow, but he got caught, even if the officials couldn't technically prove it was intentional. If you think athletes don't look for ways to "accidentally on purpose" rough up other players at times, well, I think that's a tad naive. Whether it's a sturdy knee, or falling with full body weight on someone, or swinging elbows, even heads, this happens all the time. These things are easy enough for the average athlete to pull off, and let's not forget we're talking about guys with exceptional body control here.

Kyle didn't think it'd get noticed and thought it'd just look like part of the scrum.

Henderson's play was reckless in my mind because he was going for a sensational block with full risk of a hard foul. Singler just threw an elbow.

And for what it's worth. I LIKE that little personality attribute in him. It's good he comes out for a fight and carries a bit of nastiness with him. It was just a really bad time, and less than discreet action, tonight.

[heyman25]

I think Kyle is great ,read the link. He states my sentiments exactly.

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=516597

[eddiehaskell]

Lawson....

25 pts, 8-11 from the floor, 9-9 from the FT line, 5 assist, 4 rebounds, 2 steals

When Lawson puts up a stat line like that, I don't think any team in the country can beat them. He was able to get by Nolan any time he wanted to.

[Bob Green]

I could be wrong but several of our turnovers towards the end of the game (Scheyer falling down, Henderson tripping) as well as our inability to grab a couple of key rebounds might have been because we were tired (italics to convey speculation, not sarcasm).

I believe condensation on the court to be the culprit for Scheyer and Henderson losing their footing.

[Channing]

I'm honestly very surprised at the number of people here who think Kyle's elbow was unintentional. To me, it seems there's a lot of tinted eyewear, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Everyone is suggesting to watch the replay, which I of course have done, but it emphasizes the exact opposite case to me.

Now, I'm not saying he was aiming at Hanbrough's lip/face. But Kyle threw an elbow knowing that a large part of Hansbrough was behind him. For those who say "he wasn't looking...", c'mon, when you're laying on someone you don't have to be looking back at them to know where they are. Kyle threw an elbow that was intended to hopefully hit some part of Hansbrough, face or wherever it landed probably wasn't a concern. He was just frustrated. And Kyle is a bit of a dirty player at times if no one has noticed. I don't normally mind it, as I've felt we need to fight back at some of the nastiness thrown our way by teams like Georgia Tech in recent history, but I did mind it at that particular point in this game, and adding to Kyle's foul count wasn't exactly good either.

I don't think his hand "slipping" on the ball had anything to do with it. His elbow came back way to far, and forcefully, and it just wasn't natural looking as a "slip". At best, he could have been feigning a slip for the purpose of throwing the elbow, but he got caught, even if the officials couldn't technically prove it was intentional. If you think athletes don't look for ways to "accidentally on purpose" rough up other players at times, well, I think that's a tad naive. Whether it's a sturdy knee, or falling with full body weight on someone, or swinging elbows, even heads, this happens all the time. These things are easy enough for the average athlete to pull off, and let's not forget we're talking about guys with exceptional body control here.

Kyle didn't think it'd get noticed and thought it'd just look like part of the scrum.

Henderson's play was reckless in my mind because he was going for a sensational block with full risk of a hard foul. Singler just threw an elbow.

And for what it's worth. I LIKE that little personality attribute in him. It's good he comes out for a fight and carries a bit of nastiness with him. It was just a really bad time, and less than discreet action, tonight.

I agree. If it were the other way around, and Hansbrough elbowed Singler, most people on this board would be crying bloody murder. I watched the replay several times and his hand did not slip, he clearly threw his elbow back. Its not the first time he has gotten chippy, so people cant say it is out of character either. Personally, I thought that was a crucial point in the game. We had the ball with a chance to extend the lead to double digits to start the second half.

[Saratoga2]

Despite taking the bitter pill of a loss to UNC, I thought there was a lot to feel good about. The big three all came through with good offensive efforts while Paulus played tenaciously and contributed points. Smith also used his athletic ability and speed to give us points and Thomas played very aggressively and was able to score inside. McClure had a good defensive game and even Zoubek has flashes of good play.

I think the final score was inflated in UNC;s favor by the typical end of game fouling trying to catch up and the game was actually closer than the final score would indicate. In the end, it was Lawson's ability to penetrate and score than Duke couldn't deal with. Lawson scored extremely well going to his right to the basket and dished very well when going to his left.


Some of the key plays of the game occurred in the second half:

1. Singler's 3rd foul which was correctly called, leaving us unbalanced for an extended period.
2. A series of unfortunate Duke plays:
a. Henderson slipping on the wet floor (turnover)
b. Scheyer getting tripped with no call (turnover)
c. Smith getting himself up in the air and Paulus not expecting the ensuing pass. (turnover)
d. Paulus throwing the ball cross court directly to UNC (turnover)
e. Thomas running at Green with the ensuing blowby (2 points UNC)
f. Scheyer curling inside while being bumped hard in the act of shooting with no call (turnover)

I thought UNC got the benefit of the calls more often than Duke throughout the game. It wasn't blatant, but I think we lost points as a result.

I finally muted Vitale and Patrick who were essentially a rooting section for UNC, even when Duke was aheaad.


Duke showed that it can be a competitive team, even against the highest caliber opponent. Is it possible to stop Lawson? About the only thing we didn't try is Williams and Smith at the same time. Not saying it would have helped, but it is an unexplored option

[1Devil]

Thomas played very aggressively and was able to score inside. McClure had a good defensive game and even Zoubek has flashes of good play.


I really have to disagree here. If you think Thomas and even Zoubek played well, then you have lowered the bar to a ridiculously low level. Both were awful. All you can say is that neither had his worst performance. Neither is even close to being the player that this team needs inside. And all they really need is competence. It's really, really hard to believe Plumlee can't do better.

[BigDuke6]

I'm honestly very surprised at the number of people here who think Kyle's elbow was unintentional. To me, it seems there's a lot of tinted eyewear, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Everyone is suggesting to watch the replay, which I of course have done, but it emphasizes the exact opposite case to me.

Now, I'm not saying he was aiming at Hanbrough's lip/face. But Kyle threw an elbow knowing that a large part of Hansbrough was behind him. For those who say "he wasn't looking...", c'mon, when you're laying on someone you don't have to be looking back at them to know where they are. Kyle threw an elbow that was intended to hopefully hit some part of Hansbrough, face or wherever it landed probably wasn't a concern. He was just frustrated. And Kyle is a bit of a dirty player at times if no one has noticed. I don't normally mind it, as I've felt we need to fight back at some of the nastiness thrown our way by teams like Georgia Tech in recent history, but I did mind it at that particular point in this game, and adding to Kyle's foul count wasn't exactly good either.

I don't think his hand "slipping" on the ball had anything to do with it. His elbow came back way to far, and forcefully, and it just wasn't natural looking as a "slip". At best, he could have been feigning a slip for the purpose of throwing the elbow, but he got caught, even if the officials couldn't technically prove it was intentional. If you think athletes don't look for ways to "accidentally on purpose" rough up other players at times, well, I think that's a tad naive. Whether it's a sturdy knee, or falling with full body weight on someone, or swinging elbows, even heads, this happens all the time. These things are easy enough for the average athlete to pull off, and let's not forget we're talking about guys with exceptional body control here.

Kyle didn't think it'd get noticed and thought it'd just look like part of the scrum.

Henderson's play was reckless in my mind because he was going for a sensational block with full risk of a hard foul. Singler just threw an elbow.

And for what it's worth. I LIKE that little personality attribute in him. It's good he comes out for a fight and carries a bit of nastiness with him. It was just a really bad time, and less than discreet action, tonight.


I'm sorry. I disagree. Why would Kyle be frustrated to the point of intentionally elbowing Hanboy when we are in the lead and just started the second half? I wouldn't call it frustration. You said that is his nature of play any way. The problem with looking at it on the replays is slow motion. If you play it at normal speed it looks unintentional to me. I personally don't mind. We've been getting beat up for years and usually the result is a double technical. I still can't figure out that call.

[jipops]

I agree. If it were the other way around, and Hansbrough elbowed Singler, most people on this board would be crying bloody murder. I watched the replay several times and his hand did not slip, he clearly threw his elbow back. Its not the first time he has gotten chippy, so people cant say it is out of character either. Personally, I thought that was a crucial point in the game. We had the ball with a chance to extend the lead to double digits to start the second half.

I guess we're seeing two different instances then. Kyle's trying to yank the ball away, his hand slips, he yanks it again, hand slips and elbow lands on Hansbrough. Looks like pretty simple unintentional contact and my eyewear is crystal clear. I think it was pretty obvious that lots of things were slippery in last night's game. Now sure he didn't have to pull the ball away at a dead ball but this kind of thing is done ALL THE TIME, especially in emotional games.

I agree, the same thing happens to Duke and most are crying bloody murder. But that doesn't change the fact that this was a terrible call.

Ok, I promise I'm done arguing this meaningless point.

[arnie]

Duke showed that it can be a competitive team, even against the highest caliber opponent. Is it possible to stop Lawson? About the only thing we didn't try is Williams and Smith at the same time. Not saying it would have helped, but it is an unexplored option

Who is this Williams guy you speak of?? No one by that name played last night.

[Matches]

They're nearly impossible to defend when they're on their game. All five starters can finish, and all five of them can make a mid-range jump shot. Unless you happen to have a highly-skilled athletic big man (which we don't), the only effective way to deal with Hanstravel is to double him, and that leaves someone else open to kill you. There's almost no one in the league who can stay in front of Lawson, and if he gets by you help has to come, which again creates opportunities for others.

Wake has the best matchup against the Holes b/c they have athletic big men AND a guard who can at least slow Lawson down a little. We do not have either of those things. I was proud of the team's effort but we were outclassed.

UNC will lose games when (a) they face just the right matchup, i.e. Wake, or (b) when they don't give maximum effort. Very little chance they're going to give less than maximum effort against Duke.

[RepoMan]

Nothing new to add. It was one of those games, like Wake and unlike Clemson, where, even after losing, I wasn't angry. Our guys played real hard. The simple truth is that Carolina, playing at their best with focus, as they always will against Duke, is just better than us right now. That doesn't mean they will beat us 10 out of 10 or that we can't make the Final Four, it just means that we have less margin for error. I continue to think that this team is better than some that made it to the Final Four. Things just need to break right, and the team needs to continue to play hard and improve. K said it best:

“Carolina played great. And we didn’t play poorly, we played hard. I thought overall we played well, but we’re not as good as they are right now. They’re better than us, and sometimes a team that’s better doesn’t play as well as that, but they played that way too. It’s going to be difficult to beat them. We just have to keep getting better. We’ve come a long away from last Wednesday and we just have to keep improving.”

Areas for improvement include:

1. Defense. For a team that was seeking to define itself by D, we lost alot of our identity out there.

2. Sloppy Play. I don't think we had many more turnovers that Carolina, but we have less room for error. Those turnovers leading to fast breaks at the start hurt, as did the throways and slips in the second half.

3. Aggressiveness on Offense. I still would like to see guys seek to drive more. For example, I think it could have helped G in the second half. We need to get to the line more.

By the way, it was a well officiated game. Hardly noticed the refs, which is as I like it.

[sagegrouse]

I thought the Heels' early lead was a strategic factor in the game. Frazor and Thompson couldn't miss, giving UNC 19 unexpected points and an 11 point lead at 29-18. Those points IMHO were critical to the outcome.

As a result, there was some desperation in our brilliant 12-minute run that overcame the deficit and gave Duke an eight-point lead at halftime. Our 1st half run was every bit as good as UNC's surge in the second half. But it was also tiring, and we didn't have the jets in the second half to match the Tarheels' effort.

sagegrouse

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

What is there to say about the game that hasn't been said a thousand times? This game was decided several years ago when Roy was out grabbing yet another jet PG and a stable of tough post players and K was learning Chinese. Nothing to be ashamed of for us. Everyone played hard and we shot at basically our season average. I'm not sure this was our A game all night, but it was definitely a B+. Carolina is simply better than we are and could afford to coast for a chunk of the game and still win going away.

A few quick points:

a) Greg is a warrior and did everything he could to keep us in the game. His career is coming to a forgettable end (0-4 vs UNC at Cameron, 1 ACC title, never past the Sweet 16) but let the record show that while his 2006 classmates bombed and jumped ship Greg fought with every fiber of his being. I love this kid and hope to see him on the sidelines in a few seasons.

b) Although we've heard that big men take longer to develop, UNC's top 20 big man gave them 14 minutes, 8 points, 4 boards and a shotblocking presence while our top 20 guy couldn't get off the bench. I don't see practices, but we're either struggling with evaluation, with preparation, or with trusting our top frosh to contribute. Another long, athletic defender would have been really nice out there, even if Elliot never scored.

c) I wonder how much of a factor Nolan's back spasms have been. When he's on Nolan can be REALLY spectacular.

d) We have so many tough, smart players. So I'm always baffled when we back down or get flustered as we did against Clemson and UNC, respectively. This isn't a young team and we have the master motivator on the bench, so why did we come out and get immediately knocked back? And why did we fall apart so completely at the end (again)? Very frustrating.

Overall I think last night showed us what we are: a very good team that is clearly a step below the legitimate contenders. Going forward let's enjoy this team for what it is and hope our visitor behind the bench is the beginning of something even better.

[banneheim]

yeah, it would be great if we had a shot blocker, but Lawson is too good of a player, he just dishes it off to the player where the defender leaves his man. I love this Duke team but UNC is just more talented!

[dukepsy1963]

This game really depressed me... (I'll get over it!). But the fact is, UNC has more talented players than we do, pure and simple. Our guys have heart, but that only counts so much when you are up against more talented players.


Always Duke!!!

[Houston]

The only real weakness I see, at this point, is the limited experience some of the backups have. Would have been interesting to see Duke use most everyone on the bench through the second half to see if they could have run Carolina out of the gym...experience would have been invaluable...obviously if this group had won, I'd be singing a different song.:eek:

Duke's biggest problem is that they don't/barely run and thus get very few easy baskets. If one couples that with no low post pressence, the offense becomes too reliant on jump shots. I fear another short stay in the tournament.

Did Lawson do most of his damage againts GP3 or Nolan? I thought it was GP3. As someone mentioned earlier, we will be involved in more high scoring games with the new starting five.

I would love to see Plumlee and EW get some minutes to help their development.

[feldspar]

Exactly "Contact that occurs after a whistle has blown, that is not incidental and cannot be ignored, by rule, must be penalized with a technical foul." So being the case that this was obviously incidental it does not fall under this rule. Again, I've seen this so many times before not result in a technical foul.


I love how you keep using the word obvious, as if your interpretation is the only logical one.

It's quite amusing, actually.

[jv001]

I really have to disagree here. If you think Thomas and even Zoubek played well, then you have lowered the bar to a ridiculously low level. Both were awful. All you can say is that neither had his worst performance. Neither is even close to being the player that this team needs inside. And all they really need is competence. It's really, really hard to believe Plumlee can't do better.

I don't think that Zoubek or Thomas lost this game. As for lowering the bar, that happened when they were recruited. Did we miss on the evaluation, have they not progressed in practice or are we just content on the center by committee approach. I honestly don't know but I do know that lawson killed us last night and not hanstravel. A true point guard and a true post player would help a lot. Go Duke!

[CDu]

Duke's biggest problem is that they don't/barely run and thus get very few easy baskets. If one couples that with no low post pressence, the offense becomes too reliant on jump shots. I fear another short stay in the tournament.

Did Lawson do most of his damage againts GP3 or Nolan? I thought it was GP3. As someone mentioned earlier, we will be involved in more high scoring games with the new starting five.

I would love to see Plumlee and EW get some minutes to help their development.

Duke's problem is that they were facing an elite team with more talent and the most balanced offense in college basketball playing with focus and determination.

Lawson did a lot of damage against both guys. I couldn't tell you who he burned more often, but suffice to say he made both of them look bad repeatedly.

We'll see Plumlee and Williams in games of smaller magnitude. But to this point, I haven't seen anything from them to suggest they're ready for teams of UNC's quality. They've looked like freshmen so far - which is understandable, because, well, they're freshmen.

[jipops]

I love how you keep using the word obvious, as if your interpretation is the only logical one.

It's quite amusing, actually.

It's meant more as hyperbole actually, not as dismissive. My seeded logic has more to do with what I see as a double standard being used when high profile players are involved but it's all just argument anyways.

Glad I atleast gave you something amusing that relates to last night. :)

[feldspar]

Glad I atleast gave you something amusing that relates to last night. :)

Well, I need it.

[Steve68]

It's all been said: Carolina is bigger, faster, stronger, and quicker. We tried to play them straight-up for 40 minutes and couldn't do it. If we played them 100 times, they wouldn't win every game, but their talent would beat our talent the vast majority of the time. Maybe some sort of zone or combination defense might have slowed them down, but K is usually unwilling to use anything other than straight man-to-man no matter what the match-ups. There must be a strategy we could employ to better emphasize our strengths and reduce their advantages.

[chrisheery]

I really have to disagree here. If you think Thomas and even Zoubek played well, then you have lowered the bar to a ridiculously low level. Both were awful. All you can say is that neither had his worst performance. Neither is even close to being the player that this team needs inside. And all they really need is competence. It's really, really hard to believe Plumlee can't do better.

I am suprised to hear someone say this. I thought Zoubek, when he was in, played really well last night. It seemed he made play after play after play for a 5-7 minute stretch. Then, he wasn't heard from again (because he wasn't in the game). At the end of the first half, he made great passess, tipped balls that lead to offensive rebounds, stood his ground against Hansb, and rebounded reasonably well. Not sure what else you want from the guy. I can only remember him getting the ball in the post and shooting it from there once, which was a hook turning over his left shoulder. He missed (not badly), but my point is this: its hard to be an offensive player when you never have a chance. He did everything else pretty well. I'll grant you he can't guard any player who has any quickness, but that is a known lmitation of most 7'1" players with some girth.

[JDev]

I don't think either team played particularly well defensively last night. Duke missed some shots in the second half that they knocked down in the first. They still scored 87 which is more than their season average and more than they have in any ACC contest thus far. UNC was just tremendous offensively. They are the best offensive team in the country, and were absolutely on top of their game last night. They did not get out of the break quite much as one would assume when looking at how many points they had. They just knocked down shots and took care of the ball and got something from everybody. Frasor hit his first 4 shots, 3 of which were threes, and he had been shooting in the 20% area. Thompson hit 4 or 5 straight 12 foot jumpers to get them going. And of course, Lawson was unreal. Without watching the game again, I am reluctant to guess what percentage of UNC's points he accounted for in some way or another, but it was easily the vast majority. In addition to his points and assists, his numerous drives resulted in defensive break downs that led to things like two-pass relocation shots and easy stick-backs. Duke played well, and that effort will win most nights. UNC has more talent, they are more balanced, and offensively were clearly on their game.

[Rudy]

Nothing new to add. It was one of those games, like Wake and unlike Clemson, where, even after losing, I wasn't angry. Our guys played real hard. The simple truth is that Carolina, playing at their best with focus, as they always will against Duke, is just better than us right now. That doesn't mean they will beat us 10 out of 10 or that we can't make the Final Four, it just means that we have less margin for error. I continue to think that this team is better than some that made it to the Final Four. Things just need to break right, and the team needs to continue to play hard and improve. K said it best:

“Carolina played great. And we didn’t play poorly, we played hard. I thought overall we played well, but we’re not as good as they are right now. They’re better than us, and sometimes a team that’s better doesn’t play as well as that, but they played that way too. It’s going to be difficult to beat them. We just have to keep getting better. We’ve come a long away from last Wednesday and we just have to keep improving.”


Completely agree. Duke is a good team. UNC is a great team. When the great team is on and playing well, it is very hard for the merely good team to beat them. The telling difference between the teams is Lawson (is there a better college point guard in the country?) and Hans. Take one of them away for a lesser player and we beat them the majority of the time.

I hope we play them four times this year because that would mean we get into the final four (assuming we don't get in the same region in the NCAA tournament which I almost take for granted). And I hope we win the last one even if we lose the first three.

[Matches]

I hope we play them four times this year because that would mean we get into the final four (assuming we don't get in the same region in the NCAA tournament which I almost take for granted). And I hope we win the last one even if we lose the first three.

One day I want to see a Duke-UNC Final Four game.

I do not want that day to come this year.

1999 would've been a good year for it. 2001, maybe 2004.

But not this year.

[ice-9]

This game really depressed me... (I'll get over it!). But the fact is, UNC has more talented players than we do, pure and simple. Our guys have heart, but that only counts so much when you are up against more talented players.

Always Duke!!!


I'm surprised to see sentiments like the above. COME ON GUYS! What is this "giving up" stuff?? We are DUKE. We slay giants, we dominate teams, we out-hustle everyone. I don't want hear this stuff about not being able to win.

We'll play harder if need be. Rebound the ball like a hyena chomping on prey. Guard Lawson like sticky on glue. Suffocate Hansbrough with an endless blanket of arms. Run faster; leap higher; cut cleaner; attack like eagles on prey. We can win. We can take our game to the next level. Above all, we CANNOT give up. We are Duke, and we are the Cameron Crazies.

[CDu]

I'm surprised to see sentiments like the above. COME ON GUYS! What is this "giving up" stuff?? We are DUKE. We slay giants, we dominate teams, we out-hustle everyone. I don't want hear this stuff about not being able to win.

We'll play harder if need be. Rebound the ball like a hyena chomping on prey. Guard Lawson like sticky on glue. Suffocate Hansbrough with an endless blanket of arms. Run faster; leap higher; cut cleaner; attack like eagles on prey. We can win. We can take our game to the next level. Above all, we CANNOT give up. We are Duke, and we are the Cameron Crazies.

The post you referenced didn't say anything about giving up, or that we can't beat Carolina. It just stated the simple fact that Carolina has more talent right now.

[DankeShane]

Man... it seems like only yesterday when there were posts by people here claiming that they "felt bad for UNC that they were going through tough times, and that the rivalry was so much better when UNC was at the top of their game..."

HOPE YOU'RE ENJOYING YOURSELVES NOW.

[geraldsneighbor]

Man... it seems like only yesterday when there were posts by people here claiming that they "felt bad for UNC that they were going through tough times, and that the rivalry was so much better when UNC was at the top of their game..."

HOPE YOU'RE ENJOYING YOURSELVES NOW.

That's the truth but the rivalry runs in cycles. Some years its Duke the clear favorite and right now UNC is getting it. That being said, I still think Duke can win in the Smith Center on the 8th.

[CDu]

That's the truth but the rivalry runs in cycles. Some years its Duke the clear favorite and right now UNC is getting it. That being said, I still think Duke can win in the Smith Center on the 8th.

If things go right, we certainly CAN win. That said, a win against a Lawson-led UNC would be a first. There's a very real possibility that Lawson will not lose a game he played against Duke in his career. I wonder who the last player to go undefeated for his career in this rivalry was. Has it ever happened?

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

Man... it seems like only yesterday when there were posts by people here claiming that they "felt bad for UNC that they were going through tough times, and that the rivalry was so much better when UNC was at the top of their game..."

HOPE YOU'RE ENJOYING YOURSELVES NOW.

I posted something similar in another thread. UNC is like Jason Voorhees, they just won't ever die. (Also they are ugly and butcher children :))

When UNC is down you have to achieve as much as possible and hope they stay down for as long as possible. No Duke fan should ever, ever, ever hope to see UNC succeed in any basketball-related area. Because as soon as you feel sorry for them or hope for them to do well they rise again and start hacking you to bits. I think some folks forgot this in the early 2000's.

They remember now.

[chrisM]

But if our jumpshot is falling, we can beat UNC even when Lawson is slicing us like swiss cheese.


Duke has never won a game where Ty Lawson played. So maybe we can't?

[ncexnyc]

A guess it took getting sand kicked in our collective faces, but some members are actually realizing that all of the hype directed at the Heels at the start of the season, was in fact warrented. They are that good and I wouldn't be surprised to see a UNC vs UCONN final, which I know would make everyone's day:eek:

We've talked about questionable PG play and the 3 headed center experiment all season long and those two areas hurt us last night.

Our team is good, in fact very good, but all the necessary parts for a championship just aren't there. There isn't any shame in that. Let's be honest very few teams in the country can make that claim and you saw one of them yesterday.

There is still time for this team to improve, but I'm not sure it will, if players like Nolan, EWill, and Miles aren't forcefed minutes, then you'll have the status quo for the remainder of the season.

[MarineTwinsDad]

How many of you guys play ball on a regular basis?

This year I turned 61, and until my heart attack, I was playing guys at the YMCA three times a week who were between 30 & 40 years younger. And I held my own. Sometimes I really took over the game, blocking shots, scoring on a cross-over dribble, laying the ball up under the basket after a good pass. Other times, not so much.

Lawson had a really good game. Does that mean that no one on Duke can guard him? Not really. If Lawson was really so good, why hasn't he done the same thing in all the other games he has played? If I remember right, UNC has lost two games already this year. What happened to Lawson and the guard play? Didn't we play those same teams? (Actually, I don't remember what Lawson did; maybe he was superman in those games too, but I don't remember that happening.) What I'm saying is that Lawson had probably one of the best games of his life. It happens. Everything comes together. Remember JJ's game against Texas his senior year? Why didn't he play like that in every game? For the simple reason that we all are human, and it is quite possible that when we play UNC at their place Lawson won't be nearly so impressive - and Duke will play a whole lot better. It has happened before.

[Classof06]

I am suprised to hear someone say this. I thought Zoubek, when he was in, played really well last night. It seemed he made play after play after play for a 5-7 minute stretch. Then, he wasn't heard from again (because he wasn't in the game). At the end of the first half, he made great passess, tipped balls that lead to offensive rebounds, stood his ground against Hansb, and rebounded reasonably well. Not sure what else you want from the guy. I can only remember him getting the ball in the post and shooting it from there once, which was a hook turning over his left shoulder. He missed (not badly), but my point is this: its hard to be an offensive player when you never have a chance. He did everything else pretty well. I'll grant you he can't guard any player who has any quickness, but that is a known lmitation of most 7'1" players with some girth.

I agree with you chrisheery but I also agree with 1Devil. Lance and Zoubek did in fact play very well last night. And to a certain degree, I don't think Zoubek, and especially Plumlee, get enough chances to contribute. I'm completely dumbfounded as to why Miles Plumlee doesn't play. I actually can't begin to explain how boggled my mind is over that.

But when we're congratulating them (Lance and Brian) on their combined 7 points and 10 rebounds, then I do think we've set the bar pretty low.....for Duke standards at least.

[FerryFor50]

How many of you guys play ball on a regular basis?

This year I turned 61, and until my heart attack, I was playing guys at the YMCA three times a week who were between 30 & 40 years younger. And I held my own. Sometimes I really took over the game, blocking shots, scoring on a cross-over dribble, laying the ball up under the basket after a good pass. Other times, not so much.

Lawson had a really good game. Does that mean that no one on Duke can guard him? Not really. If Lawson was really so good, why hasn't he done the same thing in all the other games he has played? If I remember right, UNC has lost two games already this year. What happened to Lawson and the guard play? Didn't we play those same teams? (Actually, I don't remember what Lawson did; maybe he was superman in those games too, but I don't remember that happening.) What I'm saying is that Lawson had probably one of the best games of his life. It happens. Everything comes together. Remember JJ's game against Texas his senior year? Why didn't he play like that in every game? For the simple reason that we all are human, and it is quite possible that when we play UNC at their place Lawson won't be nearly so impressive - and Duke will play a whole lot better. It has happened before.

No, I think it's because Lawson defers to the rest of his team. He's capable of doing this night in and night out.

I also think he is preserving himself for the tourny and going pro. When's the last time you saw him dive after a loose ball?

[FerryFor50]

I agree with you chrisheery but I also agree with 1Devil. Lance and Zoubek did in fact play very well last night. And to a certain degree, I don't think Zoubek, and especially Plumlee, get enough chances to contribute. I'm completely dumbfounded as to why Miles Plumlee doesn't play. I actually can't begin to explain how boggled my mind is over that.

But when we're congratulating them (Lance and Brian) on their combined 7 points and 10 rebounds, then I do think we've set the bar pretty low.....for Duke standards at least.

I liked the energy level of Z and Thomas. I think they played fine, and that their limited points are a result of limited touches. Hard to score more than 7 points on 7 combined shots. And I'd take 10 boards from the center position, especially in only 29 minutes of time.

[CDu]

A guess it took getting sand kicked in our collective faces, but some members are actually realizing that all of the hype directed at the Heels at the start of the season, was in fact warrented. They are that good and I wouldn't be surprised to see a UNC vs UCONN final, which I know would make everyone's day:eek:

We've talked about questionable PG play and the 3 headed center experiment all season long and those two areas hurt us last night.

Our team is good, in fact very good, but all the necessary parts for a championship just aren't there. There isn't any shame in that. Let's be honest very few teams in the country can make that claim and you saw one of them yesterday.

There is still time for this team to improve, but I'm not sure it will, if players like Nolan, EWill, and Miles aren't forcefed minutes, then you'll have the status quo for the remainder of the season.

One of the problems is that UNC is a TERRIBLE matchup for us. Our weaknesses are containing explosive PG and handling dominant inside scorers. UNC happens to have both of those things AND some good outside shooters. It's hard to take all three things away given our personnel, and UNC took advantage.

In the first half, we did a lot of things right defensively. We neutralized Lawson and Hansbrough. We forced mistakes. We rebounded well. The problem was that in doing that, we had to leave some things open. That was Frasor and Thompson. Those guys got 19 first half points. That's more than they average per game. Cut that in half, and take away the horrific early turnovers, and we may be up 20 or more at the half.

In the second half, we just weren't able to continue to contain Lawson, and our red-hot shooting cooled off. Once we couldn't contain Lawson, the defense broke down. And we simply aren't going to score basket-for-basket when Carolina is playing well.

[Classof06]

I liked the energy level of Z and Thomas. I think they played fine, and that their limited points are a result of limited touches. Hard to score more than 7 points on 7 combined shots. And I'd take 10 boards from the center position, especially in only 29 minutes of time.

You make very valid points, especially with the rebounds. But I would argue that there's a reason their touches and shots are limited: their play hasn't warranted that kind of confidence from their teammates. Hate beating a more than dead horse, but do you think if Patrick Patterson played for Duke, he would've only gotten seven shots last night? You get the point.

Zoubek and Thomas, on what we would agree was a pretty good night for them, had a combined 7 points and 10 rebounds last night; Shelden Williams had 18 pts and 15 rebs on his senior night against UNC. I'm not trying to say Shelden is the norm; there's a reason his jersey is retired. My point is, regardless of how well Thomas and Zoubek played last night, they still don't fully duplicate a legit post presence or the kind of post presence this team needs on a nightly basis. Which is why I don't understand why Plumlee doesn't get more of a shot to play.

Because until someone on that roster can, we'll remain a perimeter-oriented team.

[jv001]

One of the problems is that UNC is a TERRIBLE matchup for us. Our weaknesses are containing explosive PG and handling dominant inside scorers. UNC happens to have both of those things AND some good outside shooters. It's hard to take all three things away given our personnel, and UNC took advantage.

In the first half, we did a lot of things right defensively. We neutralized Lawson and Hansbrough. We forced mistakes. We rebounded well. The problem was that in doing that, we had to leave some things open. That was Frasor and Thompson. Those guys got 19 first half points. That's more than they average per game. Cut that in half, and take away the horrific early turnovers, and we may be up 20 or more at the half.

In the second half, we just weren't able to continue to contain Lawson, and our red-hot shooting cooled off. Once we couldn't contain Lawson, the defense broke down. And we simply aren't going to score basket-for-basket when Carolina is playing well.

We said the same thing about Wake "they are a terrible match up" for us. Well Clemson must have been just as bad a match up. We have no one that can match lawson, Teague, Rivers. Our guard play has not been what it was at the beginning of the year and we don't have a powerful inside game. We do have very talented wing players. This is not what wins tournaments. Good guard play and/or good inside play does. Like Coach K said, they are better than we are right now. Go Duke!

[FerryFor50]

You make very valid points, especially with the rebounds. But I would argue that there's a reason their touches and shots are limited: their play hasn't warranted that kind of confidence from their teammates. Hate beating a more than dead horse, but do you think if Patrick Patterson played for Duke, he would've only gotten seven shots last night? You get the point.

Zoubek and Thomas, on what we would agree was a pretty good night for them, had a combined 7 points and 10 rebounds last night; Shelden Williams had 18 pts and 15 rebs on his senior night against UNC. I'm not trying to say Shelden is the norm; there's a reason his jersey is retired. My point is, regardless of how well Thomas and Zoubek played last night, they still don't fully duplicate a legit post presence or the kind of post presence this team needs on a nightly basis. Which is why I don't understand why Plumlee doesn't get more of a shot to play.

Because until someone on that roster can, we'll remain a perimeter-oriented team.

Patrick Patterson was a top 5 recruit. Z and Lance were not.

I agree we need a better post presence; I just don't think Z and Lance played that badly - in fact, they played above their normal output in recent games. Z actually didn't play like he was sleepwalking, and Lance was an emotional spark.

But yea, I wish we hand landed Patterson. I bet he's wishing he had landed at Duke these days, too. ;)

[rsvman]

There is no sense in complaining about a technical foul when we were outscored by 22(!) in the second half.

But we beat them by 19 points in about the last 14 minutes of the first half.



I do think the technical foul hurt the team, if for no other reason than slowing momentum.

The long 3 by Tyler was deja vu for me; probably so for others, too. :mad:

[bballfan]

How many of you guys play ball on a regular basis?

This year I turned 61, and until my heart attack, I was playing guys at the YMCA three times a week who were between 30 & 40 years younger. And I held my own. Sometimes I really took over the game, blocking shots, scoring on a cross-over dribble, laying the ball up under the basket after a good pass. Other times, not so much.

Lawson had a really good game. Does that mean that no one on Duke can guard him? Not really. If Lawson was really so good, why hasn't he done the same thing in all the other games he has played? If I remember right, UNC has lost two games already this year. What happened to Lawson and the guard play? Didn't we play those same teams? (Actually, I don't remember what Lawson did; maybe he was superman in those games too, but I don't remember that happening.) What I'm saying is that Lawson had probably one of the best games of his life. It happens. Everything comes together. Remember JJ's game against Texas his senior year? Why didn't he play like that in every game? For the simple reason that we all are human, and it is quite possible that when we play UNC at their place Lawson won't be nearly so impressive - and Duke will play a whole lot better. It has happened before.

Lawson has never lost to Duke! I remember him getting into the lane anytime he wanted against Duke as a Freshman! That being said Lawson seems to struggle when he plays against guards that are just as quick and can score (Rice, Teague). Lawson was outplayed in both games against BC and Wake and UNC lost. Duke has no guard that can keep up with Lawson and he will probably play the same in the next game against Duke.
I dont think the Tech on Singular had any impact on the game Duke was up four points after Green made the free throws. Soon after that Duke had run the score back up to Eight. I do not think the elbow was intentional but the refs had to call a Tech. Players are supposed to stop after the whistle and Singular clearly had not stopped trying to rip the ball away.
The ESPN announcers seemed to think that K had intentionally made the gym hot/humid by not turning on the AC and shutting all doors. I have no idea if this is true or not but if it is true why would K do this? I think the two teams have about the same depth plus the slipery floor seemed to bother Duke more than UNC. I noticed Singulars whole head was soaked in the first half and I remember thinking I had never seen him sweat that much. Duke looked more tired in the 2nd half.

[FerryFor50]

Lawson has never lost to Duke! I remember him getting into the lane anytime he wanted against Duke as a Freshman! That being said Lawson seems to struggle when he plays against guards that are just as quick and can score (Rice, Teague). Lawson was outplayed in both games against BC and Wake and UNC lost. Duke has no guard that can keep up with Lawson and he will probably play the same in the next game against Duke.
I dont think the Tech on Singular had any impact on the game Duke was up four points after Green made the free throws. Soon after that Duke had run the score back up to Eight. I do not think the elbow was intentional but the refs had to call a Tech. Players are supposed to stop after the whistle and Singular clearly had not stopped trying to rip the ball away.
The ESPN announcers seemed to think that K had intentionally made the gym hot/humid by not turning on the AC and shutting all doors. I have no idea if this is true or not but if it is true why would K do this? I think the two teams have about the same depth plus the slipery floor seemed to bother Duke more than UNC. I noticed Singulars whole head was soaked in the first half and I remember thinking I had never seen him sweat that much. Duke looked more tired in the 2nd half.

hahaha

They seriously think K made the gym hot? Have they ever been inside CIS? It's ALWAYS hot in there.

[Dukerati]

I usually take the time to read an entire thread before posting so I apologize if this has already been brought up and discussed but from the little snippets I have read, there seems to be a strong sentiment that UNC is just better.... this may be true but come on. 100 points in Cameron! We can and should have played better defense. As for Ty Lawson, he played a great game but he drove right the entire game and we played tight on him around the three line. Why couldn't we have shaded him right, force him left, and maybe sag off a few feet? It opens up the three point shot but they were hitting everything anyways so why not change the defense a little bit? Ugh.

Despite it all, I did think we played really hard and you could not criticize any player for not 'wanting it enough'. I just think we need to get more creative in our coaching and style when going up against arguably more talented teams. This is not the team of years past where we could impose our will and style of play on anybody.

[bjornolf]

I still think the floor was a bigger factor than the elbow. We had the game almost into single digits and were building momentum when guys started slipping all over the place. So did theirs, of course. But the difference was that every time one of them slipped, they either knocked the ball to an open man who hit the shot, the ref stopped play so we couldn't take advantage, or we just failed to take advantage by missing the shot, whereas every time we slipped, we turned it over or left one of their guys open for a shot that he hit.

It was just bad luck, but it allowed them to survive our run and get the lead back out to double digits heading into the last minute. On a dry floor, I think it's a MUCH closer game in the last 30 seconds. I guess the biggest difference was that we were more fatigued, so falling took more out of us and we weren't able to react to it as well or as quickly. A perfect example was when a Tarheel defender slipped, they switched and he was able to get back in the play. The very next time down the floor, our guy slipped on defense and they were shooting by the time he was even able to struggle back to his feet. He didn't even get back in the play.

Having your feet go out from under you unexpectedly and getting back up takes a LOT more out of you when you're already tired, not to mention you can't react as fast and make something good out of it. Ty slipped and got an assist. Henderson slipped and all he could do was lose the ball out of bounds. To me that shows fatigue.

[Matches]

We said the same thing about Wake "they are a terrible match up" for us. Well Clemson must have been just as bad a match up. We have no one that can match lawson, Teague, Rivers. Our guard play has not been what it was at the beginning of the year and we don't have a powerful inside game. We do have very talented wing players. This is not what wins tournaments. Good guard play and/or good inside play does. Like Coach K said, they are better than we are right now. Go Duke!

Agree with this. They're a bad matchup for us because they're a better team than we are, at least right now. Every now and again there'll be a team out there that is less talented but just seems to have your number. That's a "bad matchup".

The fact that a team is bigger AND quicker than us isn't a "bad matchup" - they're just the superior team.

[dyedwab]

Our guard play has not been what it was at the beginning of the year and we don't have a powerful inside game. We do have very talented wing players. This is not what wins tournaments. Good guard play and/or good inside play does. Like Coach K said, they are better than we are right now. Go Duke!

Ironically, in JJ and Shelden's senior season, we had both good guard play and a strong inside presence. What were we missing? Wing players...

I don't mean to pick, but my point is that there isn't just one way or one personnel set up to win games, get to a Final Four, or win a National title

[Matches]

Ironically, in JJ and Shelden's senior season, we had both good guard play and a strong inside presence. What were we missing? Wing players...



JJ was guard but he was not a PG. The '06 team did not have a playmaking PG. (I know Paulus led the ACC in assists that year, and that's great, but he was not a playmaking PG.) PG and C are the two most important positions on the floor, and we struggle in both spots.

[jv001]

JJ was guard but he was not a PG. The '06 team did not have a playmaking PG. (I know Paulus led the ACC in assists that year, and that's great, but he was not a playmaking PG.) PG and C are the two most important positions on the floor, and we struggle in both spots.

Thanks Matches, That year our guards were JJ, Greg and Sean Dockery. JJ was not the point guard and he went cold in tourney play. So guard play did not carry us. On paper this team should had been a potential NCAA winner but it did not turn out that way. Go Duke!

[MChambers]

There's nothing about losing to those guys that doesn't stink. But I'm actually far more optimistic than most seem to be about this game.

Mark it down: Nolan Smith arrived tonight. I know he had several major defensive lapses and some careless giveaways, but I'm going to hang my hat on the idea that no one was going to stop a Lawson-led team tonight.

Nolan had three plays that are going to be put on a five-minute loop by the staff, then screened for Smith followed by K saying, "Son, do you see what you're capable of? Do you see what not being hesitant does for your game and our team?"

Those three plays were absolute explosions, the likes of which we haven't seen since 2008. If Smith becomes a significant penetrating force this team experiences a true paradigm shift. One more scoring threat, wing jumpers becoming more open as defenses sag to prevent penetration, more trips to the foul line, more unbudgeted bench time for foul-plagued opponents.

Maybe what I saw were simply random flashes in the pan, but I don't think so. We saw this team take an important, if shrouded step forward tonight.

Danny Green's senior day will not end with his happy-dance.

I really think this is the key. If Nolan can return to his early season form, I still think this team can be very, very good. Without him, it's essentially the same team as last year.

[CDu]

Ironically, in JJ and Shelden's senior season, we had both good guard play and a strong inside presence. What were we missing? Wing players...

I don't mean to pick, but my point is that there isn't just one way or one personnel set up to win games, get to a Final Four, or win a National title

You're off a bit here. Good guard play isn't what we missed. It was good POINT GUARD play. Redick was a wing. We lacked additional wings and we lacked team athleticism and a good playmaking PG.

That Redick/Williams team was really good though. We did quite well throughout the season. We simply ran into a team that was able to exploit our lack of team athleticism and point guard play. We were a two-man offense, and they completely took away one of our men.

[CDu]

I really think this is the key. If Nolan can return to his early season form, I still think this team can be very, very good. Without him, it's essentially the same team as last year.

Agreed. Nolan put together a few very nice moments. If he can build off of that, we might have something again.

Just as importantly, Nolan needs to build off of this for NEXT year, when we have virtually no alternative but him at PG.

[Edouble]

I posted something similar in another thread. UNC is like Jason Voorhees, they just won't ever die. (Also they are ugly and butcher children.

Way to plug the opening of the movie tomorrow. ;)

[bjornolf]

Way to plug the opening of the movie tomorrow. ;)

I didn't see all the Jason movies, but I didn't think killing children was his thing. I thought that was Freddy Kreuger's favorite hobby. I thought Jason liked killing camp counselors.

[NSDukeFan]

In the first half, Lawson may have been a little hesitant and trying to get others involved in the game more, but I thought we also did a good job having screener's man showing very high to prevent his penetration on pick and roll plays.

I think the Holes did a better job in the second half of getting in the open court and spreading the floor so Lawson could just beat his man (it didn't matter if it was Smith, Paulus, or whoever). It seems to me we didn't have the same intensity in helping out on screening situations in the second half and weren't able to get a second defender over to help out quickly enough to slow him down. Man, did he ever finish well though. Most of his finishes were contested, though they were in close. We have shown otherwise for 2 and a half games lately, but I think we are an excellent defensive team and can do better against Lawson in a few weeks.

As another poster noted, maybe he won't play quite as well next time around, either. Maybe Thompson and Frasor won't start off 7 of 8 next time. Maybe we'll slow the pace a bit more, work the ball inside-out a bit more (I liked Z getting some post touches and even liked the assertiveness in taking the forced turnaround), hit a few more shots, not slip on the floor when we are trying to make a comeback and maybe we won't have a guy with an ugly shot put shot hit one at end of a shot-clock with McClure playing almost perfect D on him.

In addition, I was pleased to see Lance give us something this game, great and one finish (too bad he missed the one) to end the first half. I also loved Nolan's aggressive spin moves and the balance and aggressiveness Kyle showed in rebounding his missed dunk (what a play!) Jon did a lot of what he does best. He is fantastic when a good portion of his offense is cuts to the basket and drives where he has a great knack for drawing contact.)

Yes, they may be more talented, but I see lots of potential for improvement, no reason in a one and done tournament that we can't make a FF run and am looking forward to how we respond in this next important, tough stretch of games before tournament time. I don't feel the need to look ahead to 2010 just yet.

[geraldsneighbor]

Last night I think was the first night we really missed Demarcus. His defense would've been big on Lawson.

[chrisheery]

I agree with you chrisheery but I also agree with 1Devil. Lance and Zoubek did in fact play very well last night. And to a certain degree, I don't think Zoubek, and especially Plumlee, get enough chances to contribute. I'm completely dumbfounded as to why Miles Plumlee doesn't play. I actually can't begin to explain how boggled my mind is over that.

But when we're congratulating them (Lance and Brian) on their combined 7 points and 10 rebounds, then I do think we've set the bar pretty low.....for Duke standards at least.


Zoub had 2 points, 4 boards, a block and an assist in 9 minutes. That is good production. As I said, you just can't produce when you are on the bench. It is also difficult to score when you never get the ball. Even harder when you only get the ball in a position where you are not comfortable. He got 1 tip in and 1 shot from the block. He never even had the ball in a position to score otherwise. I know he had position where an entry pass could have been thrown at least 2 other times and he was completely ignored.

I don't mean to say he is a great player, but he played well last night and more minutes might have been in order. I will not make a big argument for Lance. He played ok. It should be noted he only played 20 minutes though.

A better stat to look at might be the fact that Hansbrough only had 6 rebounds. No one in the game had double digit rebounds. (mainly because UNC rarely missed a shot, I guess).

[concrete]

Last night I think was the first night we really missed Demarcus. His defense would've been big on Lawson.


sorry but Demarcus would have got eaten alive last night...we needed a post presence to stop those easy layups.

[DukeVu]

I did not see the game but have read many posts and newspaper accounts but why was Hansbrough so close to Singler so as to get hit with the elbow anyway. I understand the play was over and Singler's back was turned so as not to see him. Also if it was Singler's 2nd or 3rd elbow swing - then why was Tyler so close to him so as to get hit? And in the head or mouth too.
No one seems to have addressed why he was in such close proximity unless he was involved in the scuffle.

[pfrduke]

I did not see the game but have read many posts and newspaper accounts but why was Hansbrough so close to Singler so as to get hit with the elbow anyway. I understand the play was over and Singler's back was turned so as not to see him. Also if it was Singler's 2nd or 3rd elbow swing - then why was Tyler so close to him so as to get hit? And in the head or mouth too.
No one seems to have addressed why he was in such close proximity unless he was involved in the scuffle.

It was a tie-up on the ground. Singler was basically laying in his lap.

[roywhite]

sorry but Demarcus would have got eaten alive last night...we needed a post presence to stop those easy layups.

That was my thought...a big shotblocker would have helped. Or even Zoubs as a last line of defense under the basket, but that might have led to other issues.

UNC is awfully hard to defend, because you really can't help too much off any of their starters. Perhaps in March, Nolan (and maybe EWill a bit?) will be able to defend Lawson a little better.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I thought the Heels' early lead was a strategic factor in the game. Frazor and Thompson couldn't miss, giving UNC 19 unexpected points and an 11 point lead at 29-18. Those points IMHO were critical to the outcome.

As a result, there was some desperation in our brilliant 12-minute run that overcame the deficit and gave Duke an eight-point lead at halftime. Our 1st half run was every bit as good as UNC's surge in the second half. But it was also tiring, and we didn't have the jets in the second half to match the Tarheels' effort.

sagegrouse

This is right on, imo.

UNC was getting strong shooting from Deon and Frasor early.
Frasor was the big surprise, Deon somewhat, but not so much. He's shown some nice offense at times this year. TH was struggling to find a rythem, picked up two relatively quick fouls and Green was out of sync too. UNC still had Duke on the ropes and down 11 when they started rushing things and taking stupid contested shots. They gave Duke a small window of opportunity and Duke took it with really gritty, emotional play and sick shooting to get back on top. But it seemed to me that Green, TH, Lawson and Deon were on the bench a good part of that run and Duke was playing mostly starters. (Somebody who has it taped let me know if I'm right). Then in the 2nd half it seemed UNC was the fresher team and the team balance along with an inspired Lawson was just too much for a team that had "lost its legs".

I think UNC should get some defensive credit too for the middle of the 2nd half (crunch time). Duke didn't get a lot of good looks and the Heels were strong on the boards too.

As good as this UNC team is. I find it a frustrating team to watch. They have yet to play a game at the level I think they are capable of. (MD was close as its been that I've seen.) Sub par game from Ellington, Green and TH and still scored 100+ against a good defensive team...that's what is scary about this team.

What worries me most is savvy and smart is not how they will be remembered.

Note: The floor did look to be dangerous, glad nobody got hurt. Somebody needs to look into that and find a way to address the problem. I thought it might have been just the players sweating so much at first and they weren't doing a good enough job wiping the floor during the breaks.

[TampaDuke]

Last night I think was the first night we really missed Demarcus. His defense would've been big on Lawson.

Or maybe just play Smith on him. I love Paulus and his leadership, but Lawson blowing by him with ease time and again dramatically altered our defensive abilities. Smith isn't ideal on offense and wouldn't have stopped Lawson every time, but he would have kept him honest. Replay the second half if you've TIVO'd it and you'll see a dramatic change in Lawson's assertiveness between the times that Paulus guards him and when Smith is on him.

This team is good with Paulus as the PG getting the most minutes, but we witnessed the limits of that lineup last year. It might be a year too soon, but I'm beginning to believe that the fate of this year's team rests with Smith.

[Deb4Duke4Ever]

I have attended games at CIS on previous occasions and I do not EVER remember it being that HOT and HUMID! :eek: It is no wonder that the floor was so wet because I was absolutely soaked at the end of that game. Since I was in the non-standing section ;), I guess I had to endure the "heat rises" concept at a whole other level. Geez!

Anyway, the first half was some of the best basketball I have seen them play this year. I am referring to the non-dependence on 3s and the movement of cutters and running the baseline. I believe that is what they went away from in the second half and what cost them offensively. Jon got free several times on the baseline curl and he also drove to the hoop and got fouled on a couple. If Jon, G and Kyle would continue that movement inside out, the offense would click. Also, I noticed so many times that they were lax on getting back and UNC got too may easy hoops. I kept screaming for them to push the ball (whether a make or miss) to try and keep their D off guard and get some transition buckets but to no avail. They do not run enough IMO.

My throat hurts so bad from cheering them on! Looking forward to BC this weekend to see what the road will bring. :)

[TampaDuke]

Also, I noticed so many times that they were lax on getting back and UNC got too may easy hoops.

I noticed this in this game as well as others. The transition defense has been lax on several games in the past that we've won. Hopefully, they'll look at the tape from this game and use it to improve in this area. Duke has always seemed to epitomize the ideal that every possession (on offense or defense) matters. I expect we'll see that from here on out this season.

[ice-9]

The post you referenced didn't say anything about giving up, or that we can't beat Carolina. It just stated the simple fact that Carolina has more talent right now.


It also said that there's only so much heart can do against superior talent. That, and a lot of sentiments like it expressed on this board, sound like giving up to me, like an acknowledgment that UNC's superiority this season is inevitable and unchangeable.

I'll be happy if I'm wrong.

[duketaylor]

Great to see you again, good win for your team. I thought K might stick with what got Duke the lead, mass substitutions and Brian Zoubek getting some playing time. Guess I'll get blasted for criticizing K, but I don't get it. Same as I don't get CIS being 800 degrees.

Hope your fishing is going well, good luck, and we'll see you (y'all) in chapel hell in a few weeks, maybe in March and again in April;)

9F!!9F!!9F!!

[jipops]

This is right on, imo.

UNC was getting strong shooting from Deon and Frasor early.
Frasor was the big surprise, Deon somewhat, but not so much. He's shown some nice offense at times this year. TH was struggling to find a rythem, picked up two relatively quick fouls and Green was out of sync too. UNC still had Duke on the ropes and down 11 when they started rushing things and taking stupid contested shots. They gave Duke a small window of opportunity and Duke took it with really gritty, emotional play and sick shooting to get back on top. But it seemed to me that Green, TH, Lawson and Deon were on the bench a good part of that run and Duke was playing mostly starters. (Somebody who has it taped let me know if I'm right). Then in the 2nd half it seemed UNC was the fresher team and the team balance along with an inspired Lawson was just too much for a team that had "lost its legs".

I think UNC should get some defensive credit too for the middle of the 2nd half (crunch time). Duke didn't get a lot of good looks and the Heels were strong on the boards too.

As good as this UNC team is. I find it a frustrating team to watch. They have yet to play a game at the level I think they are capable of. (MD was close as its been that I've seen.) Sub par game from Ellington, Green and TH and still scored 100+ against a good defensive team...that's what is scary about this team.

What worries me most is savvy and smart is not how they will be remembered.

Note: The floor did look to be dangerous, glad nobody got hurt. Somebody needs to look into that and find a way to address the problem. I thought it might have been just the players sweating so much at first and they weren't doing a good enough job wiping the floor during the breaks.

You are partially correct I believe in that Deon, Lawson, and Green were on the bench at the time of Duke's run. At the time I liked the fact we had the lead but didn't like the pace at which the half was played - didn't appear to bode well for Duke even then. If the halftime score was in the 30's I would have felt better. I do not think that UNC's defense was a lot better in the 2nd. It was a little better in terms of stopping drives, but Duke was still getting wide open looks, they just weren't going down. Fatigue was very visible especially Henderson who was sucking wind the entire 2nd. I felt the play that completely deflated Duke was the ridiculously wide open 3 Scheyer took and missed, Lance rebounded and then clanked the point blank putback underneath. We seemed completely done after that and this was well before Tyler's 3.

As terrific as UNC's offense is, shouldn't you still be concerned about that defense. It truly was awful, especially in the first. Nobody switched, there was ZERO communication, the fundamental defensive stance was even almost non-existent, and guys weren't even attempting a hand in the face. These guys puzzle me as well. I'm sure they run defensive drills in practice but you would never know it just watching a game. They actually allowed the 2nd worst offensive team in the conference (K's worst 3pt % team of his career) to post 50 points on them in the 1st half. Sup with that? Despite this, UNC is still a great team, no disputing that.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Great to see you again, good win for your team. I thought K might stick with what got Duke the lead, mass substitutions and Brian Zoubek getting some playing time. Guess I'll get blasted for criticizing K, but I don't get it. Same as I don't get CIS being 800 degrees.

Hope your fishing is going well, good luck, and we'll see you (y'all) in chapel hell in a few weeks, maybe in March and again in April;)

9F!!9F!!9F!!

Fishing is OK. Had to cut back on some national events due to losing some big sponsor dollars in this economy. First two events have been in the money this year on the tours I am fishing. Been on the road heavy the past 5 years in the spring, less so this year. Promised myself I'd spend more time on the board this year.
Before anybody accuses me of being fairweather, recall I wasn't around in '05 or last year to the final four for that matter.
It was an interesting game for sure. Next one is not likely to be ho hum either....

[Wheat/"/"/"]

You are partially correct I believe in that Deon, Lawson, and Green were on the bench at the time of Duke's run. At the time I liked the fact we had the lead but didn't like the pace at which the half was played - didn't appear to bode well for Duke even then. If the halftime score was in the 30's I would have felt better. I do not think that UNC's defense was a lot better in the 2nd. It was a little better in terms of stopping drives, but Duke was still getting wide open looks, they just weren't going down. Fatigue was very visible especially Henderson who was sucking wind the entire 2nd. I felt the play that completely deflated Duke was the ridiculously wide open 3 Scheyer took and missed, Lance rebounded and then clanked the point blank putback underneath. We seemed completely done after that and this was well before Tyler's 3.

As terrific as UNC's offense is, shouldn't you still be concerned about that defense. It truly was awful, especially in the first. Nobody switched, there was ZERO communication, the fundamental defensive stance was even almost non-existent, and guys weren't even attempting a hand in the face. These guys puzzle me as well. I'm sure they run defensive drills in practice but you would never know it just watching a game. They actually allowed the 2nd worst offensive team in the conference (K's worst 3pt % team of his career) to post 50 points on them in the 1st half. Sup with that? Despite this, UNC is still a great team, no disputing that.

Th was on the bench alot for that first half run too, right?

Duke's first half 61% shooting I thought was more Duke's effort and focus than UNC's poor D. They made some tough, long shots and found the grove running the floor. That was helped by poor decisions on the offensive end by UNC. Don't get me wrong, UNC's D could have been much better, but Duke was playing very well and I'll credit that.

I just don't recall that many good looks for Duke in the second half, and UNC kept the pressure on. Not gambling pressure, but consistant pressure. After seeing what shots Duke made in the first half, maybe it seemed like those long ones should fall every time? They sure didn't get to the rim off the dribble as easy as in the first half. I thought there were some timely stops a few forced TO's, along with strong defensive rebounding the last 15 minutes.

[pfrduke]

Th was on the bench alot for that first half run too, right?

Duke's first half 61% shooting I thought was more Duke's effort and focus than UNC's poor D. They made some tough, long shots and found the grove running the floor. That was helped by poor decisions on the offensive end by UNC. Don't get me wrong, UNC's D could have been much better, but Duke was playing very well and I'll credit that.

I just don't recall that many good looks for Duke in the second half, and UNC kept the pressure on. Not gambling pressure, but consistant pressure. After seeing what shots Duke made in the first half, maybe it seemed like those long ones should fall every time? They sure didn't get to the rim off the dribble as easy as in the first half. I thought there were some timely stops a few forced TO's, along with strong defensive rebounding the last 15 minutes.

Duke went on a 16-5 run in the middle of the first half. For the first 2-0, the lineup for UNC was Lawson, Frasor, Green, Thompson, and Hansbrough. For the next 14-5, sub Ellington for Green. It's not correct to say that Duke's run came against the UNC bench.

Carolina's +/- for half #1 looked like this: Lawson -4, Drew -4, Frasor -10, Ellington -4, Green -2, Thompson +1, Copeland -4, Hansbrough -6, Davis -7.

[pfrduke]

Duke went on a 16-5 run in the middle of the first half. For the first 2-0, the lineup for UNC was Lawson, Frasor, Green, Thompson, and Hansbrough. For the next 14-5, sub Ellington for Green. It's not correct to say that Duke's run came against the UNC bench.

Carolina's +/- for half #1 looked like this: Lawson -4, Drew -4, Frasor -10, Ellington -4, Green -2, Thompson +1, Copeland -4, Hansbrough -6, Davis -7.

For the sake of completeness, here's the second half: Lawson +19, Drew +3, Frasor +17, Ellington +23, Green +4, Thompson +12, Copeland 0, Hansbrough +20, Davis +12.

And here's the overall: Lawson +15, Drew -1, Frasor +7, Ellington +19, Green +2, Thompson +13, Copeland -4, Hansbrough +14, Davis +5.

[FireOgilvie]

I bit the bullet and re-watched the game on ESPN360. I was trying to determine where everything went wrong on offense and defense. I also took notes on basically every breakdown involving Ty Lawson in the 2nd half. What I found out was that Nolan more or less contained him and Lawson only outscored him (roughly...) 12 - 7 in the 2nd half when Nolan was in the game. On one play, Lawson made an impressive step-back and got past Nolan and made a floater over Zoubek (however, on the next play, Nolan drove the length of the court and made a jumpshot). Otherwise, Lawson's points from dribble penetration came on a Duke defensive switch. He drove past and scored on Singler, McClure, and Thomas. He also scored on a couple free throws when Nolan bumped into him going for a tipped ball near halfcourt. Nolan forced at least one turnover on Lawson and only let him get by him 1 time.

Paulus had a tough time with Lawson one-on-one. It seemed like Lawson got by him at will, and drove by him at least 4 times. Lawson also got by McClure and scored. Paulus ended up picking up 2 fouls to make up for Lawson getting by him. The run where Lawson created 6 straight points to go up 80-71 basically ended the game for Duke. Paulus had 0 second half points.

On offense, Duke settled for early 3 pointers way too many times. Our inability to hit any of those really killed us. We shot 2-15 from 3 in the 2nd half. We needed to attempt to drive to the basket more, where we had great success basically all game.

In the next UNC game I want to see Nolan on Lawson throughout. Paulus should not be allowed to guard him for any stretch, especially without Zoubek/Plumlee (shot-blockers) planted firmly in the post. Paulus is perfectly fine matching up with Frasor. I believe Plumlee can be VERY effective against UNC as long as he plays with Singler and the other starters. Singler and McClure provide very little inside defensive presence, and Plumlee would be perfect to alter shots. The key is to teach Plumlee to keep his hands straight up against Hansbrough. Singler and McClure got burned time after time against UNC down low. Lance Thomas consistently provides zero to no inside defense (or defensive rebounding). On offense, we need to ATTACK THE BASKET. We were very successful at this, and we didn't even look to do it many times before taking a quick 3. Even in the 2nd half, UNC's defense was very suspect. High screens on Lawson allowed Nolan to penetrate against Hansbrough very effectively. Hansbrough is an absolutely horrible shot-blocker, so this could work. The game was very close until Lawson (with Paulus on him) put the game away with 6 or so minutes to go. Duke can definitely win the next one.

[accfanfrom1970]

I apologize if this has been covered, I haven't read the whole post -
Lawson only attempted one 3, did he take more than 1 jumpshot? Why wouldn't we play him more for the drive? Make him beat us from the outside....especially with a taller defender on him (Smith, McClure) who could still challenge a jump shot.....and swarm him if he picks up his dribble. It just seemed like he drove at will and we never adjusted.

[pfrduke]

I apologize if this has been covered, I haven't read the whole post -
Lawson only attempted one 3, did he take more than 1 jumpshot? Why wouldn't we play him more for the drive? Make him beat us from the outside....especially with a taller defender on him (Smith, McClure) who could still challenge a jump shot.....and swarm him if he picks up his dribble. It just seemed like he drove at will and we never adjusted.

Honestly, I think we were playing him for the drive. He still beat the defense.

[ncexnyc]

It's a matter of chosing your poison with Lawson. If you sag on him daring him to shoot the 3, then it allows him to have a better view for making entry passes into Hasbro.

If you press him closely, you risk him beating his man and penetrating.

The ideal solution is to press him and have a beast waiting in the paint to swat his shots, but I'm not sure if Brian qualifies as that.

[BlueintheFace]

I bit the bullet and re-watched the game on ESPN360. I was trying to determine where everything went wrong on offense and defense. I also took notes on basically every breakdown involving Ty Lawson in the 2nd half. What I found out was that Nolan more or less contained him and Lawson only outscored him (roughly...) 12 - 7 in the 2nd half when Nolan was in the game. On one play, Lawson made an impressive step-back and got past Nolan and made a floater over Zoubek (however, on the next play, Nolan drove the length of the court and made a jumpshot). Otherwise, Lawson's points from dribble penetration came on a Duke defensive switch. He drove past and scored on Singler, McClure, and Thomas. He also scored on a couple free throws when Nolan bumped into him going for a tipped ball near halfcourt. Nolan forced at least one turnover on Lawson and only let him get by him 1 time.

Paulus had a tough time with Lawson one-on-one. It seemed like Lawson got by him at will, and drove by him at least 4 times. Lawson also got by McClure and scored. Paulus ended up picking up 2 fouls to make up for Lawson getting by him. The run where Lawson created 6 straight points to go up 80-71 basically ended the game for Duke. Paulus had 0 second half points.

On offense, Duke settled for early 3 pointers way too many times. Our inability to hit any of those really killed us. We shot 2-15 from 3 in the 2nd half. We needed to attempt to drive to the basket more, where we had great success basically all game.

In the next UNC game I want to see Nolan on Lawson throughout. Paulus should not be allowed to guard him for any stretch, especially without Zoubek/Plumlee (shot-blockers) planted firmly in the post. Paulus is perfectly fine matching up with Frasor. I believe Plumlee can be VERY effective against UNC as long as he plays with Singler and the other starters. Singler and McClure provide very little inside defensive presence, and Plumlee would be perfect to alter shots. The key is to teach Plumlee to keep his hands straight up against Hansbrough. Singler and McClure got burned time after time against UNC down low. Lance Thomas consistently provides zero to no inside defense (or defensive rebounding). On offense, we need to ATTACK THE BASKET. We were very successful at this, and we didn't even look to do it many times before taking a quick 3. Even in the 2nd half, UNC's defense was very suspect. High screens on Lawson allowed Nolan to penetrate against Hansbrough very effectively. Hansbrough is an absolutely horrible shot-blocker, so this could work. The game was very close until Lawson (with Paulus on him) put the game away with 6 or so minutes to go. Duke can definitely win the next one.

Did we re-watch the same game? I counted at least three times in the second half where Lawson literally broke down Nolan one on one. Twice on the Duke bench sideline in succession.

[robed deity]

I always enjoy reading Jumbo's "phase posts", and I can't remember seeing one for a while. I think Phase 4 is next? Just wondering if and when that one is coming, as I think they lead to interesting discussions.

[Reddevil]

Make him beat us from the outside....especially with a taller defender on him (Smith, McClure) who could still challenge a jump shot....

When confronted by a taller defender Lawson smells blood and immediately drives to the basket (of course, almost everyone is a taller defender). The best defense is probably to try to deny him the ball, and when he has it Nolan stands the best chance to guard him, besides how 'bout that spin move by Nolan for a reverse layup! There is no perfect answer for this matchup, but Nolan Smith is the best answer.

[MulletMan]

Singler did not get called for a T because of the elbow. He got the T for his language.

Second bullet from the bottom (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3905167&name=katz_andy)

"...the officials gave Singler an unsportsmanlike technical foul for his language. He said the officials told him that Singler said "get the [bleep] off me,'' when attempting to get free of the scrum."

[FireOgilvie]

Did we re-watch the same game? I counted at least three times in the second half where Lawson literally broke down Nolan one on one. Twice on the Duke bench sideline in succession.

I watched the second half very closely. What point in the game did this occur? I didn't see anything like that. One time Lawson got by him, but Nolan recovered and knocked the ball out of bounds... the other time Lawson scored over Zoubek. Those were the only two times I remember. Several times Nolan was switched off of Lawson with another defender, and he scored over McClure, Singler, and Thomas fouled him once on the baseline. The turning point in the entire game was when Lawson got by Paulus 3 times in a row to push the score to 80-71.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

pfrduke said:
"Duke went on a 16-5 run in the middle of the first half. For the first 2-0, the lineup for UNC was Lawson, Frasor, Green, Thompson, and Hansbrough. For the next 14-5, sub Ellington for Green. It's not correct to say that Duke's run came against the UNC bench"

Sorry to disagree, but a big part of the run did come against UNC's bench it looks like.

My curiosity got the best of me so I tracked down the play by play. I haven't seen a game replay and was not sure who was on the floor or when exactly. Here is a link to the play by play. (http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2008-2009/du0211.html#GAME.PLY)
My earlier point was I thought that Duke's great run came with mainly Duke starters on the floor, and UNC subbing liberally with bench players.
In this game. that accounted for Duke not being as fresh for the second half as UNC starters were.
I maintain the run took a lot out of the Duke starters. After looking at the Play by play of the first half, I think I could be right.

Starting at the 10:54 mark of the first half, UNC leads 29-18 after a Frasor 3. UNC subs in freshmen Davis and Drew along with Green to go with Ellington and TH. While Duke brought in starters Scheyer, Paulus, Singler, to go with starter Thomas and McClure. The run began.

The rest of the way it looks like UNC subbed pretty liberally while Duke kept 4 starters on the floor most of the time.

Interesting to note is that every Duke point during that span came from a starter, with the exception of the nice spin move layup by Smith on the sub Frasor.

At the 4:11 mark, TH sat for the rest of the half and UNC even brought in Copeland along side Davis and Drew for about a two minute stretch while Duke stayed with 4 starters.

I think it's pretty clear UNC starters got more rest than Duke starters did in the half and that was the only point I wanted to make.

G in particular seemed to get his legs taken away after the run.

[jws]

The reason Lawson was nearly unstoppable in the second half was because Roy made a change in the offense that Duke never really did counter.

Normally, whichever post player comes up and sets the high ball screen, immediately rolls into the lane. In the second half, Roy had the posts float to the wings after high screens, which left the lane open for Ty to drive and made it very difficult for Duke's posts to rotate in time to give help.

Frankly, I was sort of surprised K didn't try some zone or some other sort of adjustment to get Ty out of his rythm.

At any rate, I expect he'll have plenty of adjustments ready by the time you come to the Dean Dome on March 8.

Also, I have to strongly disagree with Wheat's assessment that the UMD game was Carolina at it's best this season. The UMD game was one of the most godawful defensive efforts I can ever recall by a Carolina team.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Sorry I wasn't very clear back there.. When I wrote:
"As good as this UNC team is. I find it a frustrating team to watch. They have yet to play a game at the level I think they are capable of. (MD was close as its been that I've seen.) Sub par game from Ellington, Green and TH and still scored 100+ against a good defensive team...that's what is scary about this team"

I was thinking about offensive performance. You're right, The "Matador D" was not very attractive against MD.

[Saratoga2]

I bit the bullet and re-watched the game on ESPN360. I was trying to determine where everything went wrong on offense and defense. I also took notes on basically every breakdown involving Ty Lawson in the 2nd half. What I found out was that Nolan more or less contained him and Lawson only outscored him (roughly...) 12 - 7 in the 2nd half when Nolan was in the game. On one play, Lawson made an impressive step-back and got past Nolan and made a floater over Zoubek (however, on the next play, Nolan drove the length of the court and made a jumpshot). Otherwise, Lawson's points from dribble penetration came on a Duke defensive switch. He drove past and scored on Singler, McClure, and Thomas. He also scored on a couple free throws when Nolan bumped into him going for a tipped ball near halfcourt. Nolan forced at least one turnover on Lawson and only let him get by him 1 time.

Paulus had a tough time with Lawson one-on-one. It seemed like Lawson got by him at will, and drove by him at least 4 times. Lawson also got by McClure and scored. Paulus ended up picking up 2 fouls to make up for Lawson getting by him. The run where Lawson created 6 straight points to go up 80-71 basically ended the game for Duke. Paulus had 0 second half points.

On offense, Duke settled for early 3 pointers way too many times. Our inability to hit any of those really killed us. We shot 2-15 from 3 in the 2nd half. We needed to attempt to drive to the basket more, where we had great success basically all game.

In the next UNC game I want to see Nolan on Lawson throughout. Paulus should not be allowed to guard him for any stretch, especially without Zoubek/Plumlee (shot-blockers) planted firmly in the post. Paulus is perfectly fine matching up with Frasor. I believe Plumlee can be VERY effective against UNC as long as he plays with Singler and the other starters. Singler and McClure provide very little inside defensive presence, and Plumlee would be perfect to alter shots. The key is to teach Plumlee to keep his hands straight up against Hansbrough. Singler and McClure got burned time after time against UNC down low. Lance Thomas consistently provides zero to no inside defense (or defensive rebounding). On offense, we need to ATTACK THE BASKET. We were very successful at this, and we didn't even look to do it many times before taking a quick 3. Even in the 2nd half, UNC's defense was very suspect. High screens on Lawson allowed Nolan to penetrate against Hansbrough very effectively. Hansbrough is an absolutely horrible shot-blocker, so this could work. The game was very close until Lawson (with Paulus on him) put the game away with 6 or so minutes to go. Duke can definitely win the next one.

Thanks for your input, it is tough to get a clear picure when reviewing the game at actual speed.

My impressions of Thomas during the game is that he played aggressively and hard. I have noticed in the game and in the past that he runs at people and they get by him. I see his help defense as being weak, not through lack of trying, but just being out of position. He also doesn't box out very well.

Zoubek on the other hand lacks mobility but can guard the inside if playing zone. When moving away from the basket to defend he becomes a liability.

McClure is very good defenively, goes to the ball well, boxes out well but has little offensive ability and he is not the answer guarding really quick opponent guards. That said, almost no one can guard Lawson one on one. He also can get pushed around by bigger stronger opponents.

With those observations, it is still an open question to me as to why Plumlee saw no PT. He has a size advantage over McClure and Thomas, is more mobile than Zoubek, has some offensive ability. Yes, he will make some freshman mistakes, but are they really worse than the limitations of the others playing in front of him?

[pfrduke]

pfrduke said:
"Duke went on a 16-5 run in the middle of the first half. For the first 2-0, the lineup for UNC was Lawson, Frasor, Green, Thompson, and Hansbrough. For the next 14-5, sub Ellington for Green. It's not correct to say that Duke's run came against the UNC bench"

Sorry to disagree, but a big part of the run did come against UNC's bench it looks like.

My curiosity got the best of me so I tracked down the play by play. I haven't seen a game replay and was not sure who was on the floor or when exactly. Here is a link to the play by play. (http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2008-2009/du0211.html#GAME.PLY)
My earlier point was I thought that Duke's great run came with mainly Duke starters on the floor, and UNC subbing liberally with bench players.
In this game. that accounted for Duke not being as fresh for the second half as UNC starters were.
I maintain the run took a lot out of the Duke starters. After looking at the Play by play of the first half, I think I could be right.

Starting at the 10:54 mark of the first half, UNC leads 29-18 after a Frasor 3. UNC subs in freshmen Davis and Drew along with Green to go with Ellington and TH. While Duke brought in starters Scheyer, Paulus, Singler, to go with starter Thomas and McClure. The run began.

The rest of the way it looks like UNC subbed pretty liberally while Duke kept 4 starters on the floor most of the time.

Interesting to note is that every Duke point during that span came from a starter, with the exception of the nice spin move layup by Smith on the sub Frasor.

At the 4:11 mark, TH sat for the rest of the half and UNC even brought in Copeland along side Davis and Drew for about a two minute stretch while Duke stayed with 4 starters.

I think it's pretty clear UNC starters got more rest than Duke starters did in the half and that was the only point I wanted to make.

G in particular seemed to get his legs taken away after the run.

UNC's starters 1st half minutes:
Ellington - 18
Lawson - 16
Hansbrough - 14
Thompson - 14
Green - 12
Total - 74

Duke's starters 1st half minutes:
Henderson - 16
Singler - 16
Scheyer - 15
Paulus - 15
Thomas - 11
Total - 73

I really don't think tired legs had much to do with this one, particularly when you're talking a first half run.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

To be clear...I thought the emotional, come from behind run, in the first half took a lot of energy from Duke for the second half.
You showed me the starters total minutes basically equal in the half. Good counter point.
But could this be one of those times where the Stats don't tell the real story (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1)?
If you don't buy into the arguement that Duke looked tired/slower at times in the second half, then we'll just have to agree to disagree...It's all good.

If you do, the next explanation would have to be UNC was in better shape. ;)

[Reddevil]

The reason Lawson was nearly unstoppable in the second half was because Roy made a change in the offense that Duke never really did counter.

Normally, whichever post player comes up and sets the high ball screen, immediately rolls into the lane. In the second half, Roy had the posts float to the wings after high screens, which left the lane open for Ty to drive and made it very difficult for Duke's posts to rotate in time to give help.


This is fantastic analysis! I know Coach K does not like to play zone, but sometimes....

[grossbus]

"If you don't buy into the arguement that Duke looked tired/slower at times in the second half"

i agree completely. harbinger of things to come...again?

[captmojo]

Everyone, to this point, has had good observations. My feelings have been held in reserve to this point by first reading them all before offering any insight of my own. Before today's contest, which could result is something similar due to Rice's abilities, now is the time to let it loose...here goes.

First, a non-transformational defensive strategy on Lawson was a big letdown for me. It's certainly OK to try some things early, but after he has proven himself to be able to break that effort, the strategy must change. Overplay of passing lanes is good if you have the quick hands to react and/or height presence on the inside to back up the outside guys. Overplay to one side or the other was not working and Duke failed to adapt.

To beat a player (or at least neutralize him) with the skills of Lawson, you must take away his advantages, right? Clearly his top advantages are his ball handling, speed and basket drives. The way you beat that is to revert to the fundamentals of defensive posture. Stay in a straight line between him and the basket with never more than a step-and-a-half distance between you and him. The hips do not lie! If your man is going to move right, his belt buckle tells on him. If he's going left, the same holds true. If he's going up, the buckle level rises. When you give him just the slightest of openings by cheating off left or right, he's smart enough to see it and he's fast enough to go right past you. You have to make a completely perimeter player of him. If he beats you with the jumper, tip your hat because you were whipped at keeping him furthest away from the easier shot, the lay-up. When Paulus was lifted late in the game, Nolan did this for the next few unc possessions and it worked. Then he reverted to the old and got whupped. From all I could see, good defense was played by every position with this exception.

Second, stamina was lost at halftime. This is a lack of conditioning for the elements. The university spent a large amount of money for a fancy new scoreboard and sound system in Cameron yet cannot seem to get a reasonable climate control working in the place. Yes, I understand those who believe it to be traditional, but get real. The lack of adequate oxygen levels in there is dangerous to fans and players alike and is a contributing factor in performance. If you disagree, start recruiting smokers because they simply have a nice looking jump shot. The combination of heat, humidity, recovery effort before the end of the first half and the halftime momentum break, are a direct precursor to what was seen in the second half letdown. Fix the A/C now. For this reason, you will see a tighter, more proficient team effort in the smith center.

Third, I've seen a lot of hand wringing over the technical foul. Contact should have stopped with the sounding of the whistle. Nothing intentional was done, other than to wrestle away control of the ball, by Singler. What was attempted to be done was to spin away the ball by sliding the hand under it and quickly sliding the hand out, imparting a spin on the ball, leading it away from whathisname. This play, as holds true for any one play, does not decide the outcome.

Most importantly is the change in defensive posture against a quicker guard than what you put against him. The defense, when working properly, looks like a one-on-one zone, holding the offensive guy on the outside.


fini

[eddiehaskell]

I'm starting to wonder if Duke will make the tourney with anything higher than a 5 seed. :( If that's the case we could be a one and done. :(