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JStuart
02-09-2009, 07:28 AM
Years ago, there was an article on him in Sports Illustrated in which -if I remember correctly- he needed a makeup exam in order to pass a course to either graduate or maintain eligibility. Apparently the professor gave him the exam, in his office, orally, and it was only one question, and I think it was something like, who won the Peloponnesian War. He guesses correctly, and the rest is history. (And no, the question wasn't 'which tire')
And he calls Duke 'dinosauric' ? WTF?
I've also wondered, if UNC's program was so dirty with the point-shaving scandals under Frank McGuire such that he was 'encouraged' to leave; how could his primary assistant coach be so squeaky clean and unaware of the problem? How could Dean not have known?
JStuart

moonpie23
02-09-2009, 07:57 AM
I still think Karl called in the code red on hodge........it was retaliation for jules speaking to iverson (one of the REAL nuggets)

Devil in the Blue Dress
02-09-2009, 08:41 AM
Years ago, there was an article on him in Sports Illustrated in which -if I remember correctly- he needed a makeup exam in order to pass a course to either graduate or maintain eligibility. Apparently the professor gave him the exam, in his office, orally, and it was only one question, and I think it was something like, who won the Peloponnesian War. He guesses correctly, and the rest is history. (And no, the question wasn't 'which tire')
And he calls Duke 'dinosauric' ? WTF?
I've also wondered, if UNC's program was so dirty with the point-shaving scandals under Frank McGuire such that he was 'encouraged' to leave; how could his primary assistant coach be so squeaky clean and unaware of the problem? How could Dean not have known?
JStuart

You might find it both interesting and illuminating to read up on some basketball history. Blue Blood by Art Chansky is a pretty good resource for more background about the point shaving situation you are commenting on. Some things are not as they appear.

alteran
02-09-2009, 08:54 AM
You might find it both interesting and illuminating to read up on some basketball history. Blue Blood by Art Chansky is a pretty good resource for more background about the point shaving situation you are commenting on. Some things are not as they appear.

Possibly.

But let me just say that I'll take anything Art Chansky-- a man who while sports editor in DURHAM'S newspaper admittedly planted at least one story/editorial at UNC's Dean Smith's behest to torpedo Duke-- with a Gibralter-sized grain of salt.

devildeac
02-09-2009, 09:14 AM
Nice thread title:rolleyes:. Kinda reminds me of the Duke-unc game in CIS after Uncle Terry's avuncular letter. One of the signs, IIRC, was "Welcome Fellow Scholars."

I'd also mention one of the signs displayed in CIS when he played there, but I'd like to retain my posting privileges...

Wander
02-09-2009, 09:27 AM
Years ago, there was an article on him in Sports Illustrated in which -if I remember correctly- he needed a makeup exam in order to pass a course to either graduate or maintain eligibility. Apparently the professor gave him the exam, in his office, orally, and it was only one question, and I think it was something like, who won the Peloponnesian War. He guesses correctly, and the rest is history. (And no, the question wasn't 'which tire')


This is not as well-known as it should be, but a very similar situation occurred with Tyler Hansbrough.

I think we've all kind of suspected that he isn't the brightest crayon in the box. Well, about a year ago, he was set to fail a simple math class that would have made him academically ineligible. Roy had a talk with the prof and they decided to give him the same type of exam - oral, one question, if he gets it right, he passes and can still play basketball. Furthermore, Roy suggested the exam be given in the Dean Dome, since that is where Tyler is most comfortable. The prof agreed.

Well, word leaked out about this exam, and on test day, thousands of UNC students and fans came to the Dean Dome to cheer on Tyler and give him their encouragement. They were a bit nervous, as they knew they would never have an opportunity to trail by 28 in the Final Four without Hansbrough on the team. So, after everyone is settled in, the prof walks up to the microphone at center court and says "Tyler, what is three plus two?"

Tyler paces back and forth, clearly struggling with the deepest question he's ever faced in his life. Traveling at least six times during this pacing, beads of sweat begin to form on his face. Finally, after much deliberation, he timidly walks up to the microphone. With that classic huge-eyed deer-in-the-headlights look, he unconfidently says "Five?"

At this point, the crowd of UNC students and fans bursts out screaming "Give him another chance! Give him another chance!"

Devil in the Blue Dress
02-09-2009, 09:36 AM
Possibly.

But let me just say that I'll take anything Art Chansky-- a man who while sports editor in DURHAM'S newspaper admittedly planted at least one story/editorial at UNC's Dean Smith's behest to torpedo Duke-- with a Gibralter-sized grain of salt.
This book was one I happened to have nearby when I posted earlier. Chansky did give a pretty balanced presentation in this particular book.

The point is that pointing shaving is a serious charge. The assumptions regarding Carolina players and point shaving were never proven. There is nothing to suggest that Dean Smith a part of any such wrongdoing nor did he support it.

Lest you read that and think I'm a Carolina fan lurking here, I can assure you that my Duke credentials and connections are impeccable. I believe in being fair, especially when it comes to commenting on the character or behavior of others.

JStuart
02-09-2009, 10:02 AM
No disrespect, Blue Dress, but wasn't UNC put on probation? Plus, this was way back before blogs and the internet, but if there wasn't proof, how come UNC came close to deciding to discontinue basketball? I don't have references at hand, but I'm sure Profs. Sumner and Featherston could supply some.
Hey, I'm just basically curious, especially in light of all the stuff thrown out about Coach K's 'faked back injury' by the scholars over at IC and the like.
I believe Dean is an honorable man, but if such a scandal occurred today, would any program simply promote the assistant coach without a thorough investigation of all the charges?

DoubleDuke Dad
02-09-2009, 10:14 AM
This is not as well-known as it should be, but a very similar situation occurred with Tyler Hansbrough.

I think we've all kind of suspected that he isn't the brightest crayon in the box. Well, about a year ago, he was set to fail a simple math class that would have made him academically ineligible. Roy had a talk with the prof and they decided to give him the same type of exam - oral, one question, if he gets it right, he passes and can still play basketball. Furthermore, Roy suggested the exam be given in the Dean Dome, since that is where Tyler is most comfortable. The prof agreed.

Well, word leaked out about this exam, and on test day, thousands of UNC students and fans came to the Dean Dome to cheer on Tyler and give him their encouragement. They were a bit nervous, as they knew they would never have an opportunity to trail by 28 in the Final Four without Hansbrough on the team. So, after everyone is settled in, the prof walks up to the microphone at center court and says "Tyler, what is three plus two?"

Tyler paces back and forth, clearly struggling with the deepest question he's ever faced in his life. Traveling at least six times during this pacing, beads of sweat begin to form on his face. Finally, after much deliberation, he timidly walks up to the microphone. With that classic huge-eyed deer-in-the-headlights look, he unconfidently says "Five?"

At this point, the crowd of UNC students and fans bursts out screaming "Give him another chance! Give him another chance!"

Wander, LOL! I thought you were going to give the other version of that joke, where his coach goes with him to the professor to take the one question math test. The professor asks Hanstravel how much is 6 + 5? Hanstravel starts sweating, shuffles his feet and finally answers 12. The professor says, I am sorry but I am going to have to flunk you. At this point Roy jumps up and says in his most ingratiating manner, professor please give him one more chance. He only missed by two.

77devil
02-09-2009, 11:25 AM
Nice thread title:rolleyes:. Kinda reminds me of the Duke-unc game in CIS after Uncle Terry's avuncular letter. One of the signs, IIRC, was "Welcome Fellow Scholars."

I'd also mention one of the signs displayed in CIS when he played there, but I'd like to retain my posting privileges...

If you are referring to the ribald message on a bed sheet during the 1973 game, that was me. ;)

alteran
02-09-2009, 11:49 AM
This book was one I happened to have nearby when I posted earlier. Chansky did give a pretty balanced presentation in this particular book.

The point is that pointing shaving is a serious charge. The assumptions regarding Carolina players and point shaving were never proven. There is nothing to suggest that Dean Smith a part of any such wrongdoing nor did he support it.

Lest you read that and think I'm a Carolina fan lurking here, I can assure you that my Duke credentials and connections are impeccable. I believe in being fair, especially when it comes to commenting on the character or behavior of others.

I DO NOT question your credibility or character AT ALL. Just that of Mr. Chansky-- and in particular, his credibility towards Duke and UNC.

By all accounts Blue Blood is a good read. I just don't trust the man and even if I did, I don't particularly care to forgive him for that lapse, should he deign to ask.

As much as I dislike Dean, I never thought he had anything to do with the point-shaving, I always thought it was a player thing.

greybeard
02-09-2009, 12:03 PM
Somewhat before my interest in basketball. Did these rumors involve the national championship team or was it post. When Larry Brown was there? what years? Fascinating.

The New York guys on the National Championship team could well have played pick up games with some of the guys involved in the '51 scandal. I know that Larry Brown, when he was at UNC, used to play pick up on the Island with Edie Garde, whom he has said taught him more about the street ball aspects of the game than anyone. Garde was at the vortex of the '51 scandal. Interesting.

Devil in the Blue Dress
02-09-2009, 12:11 PM
I DO NOT question your credibility or character AT ALL. Just that of Mr. Chansky-- and in particular, his credibility towards Duke and UNC.

By all accounts Blue Blood is a good read. I just don't trust the man and even if I did, I don't particularly care to forgive him for that lapse, should he deign to ask.

As much as I dislike Dean, I never thought he had anything to do with the point-shaving, I always thought it was a player thing.

I think you are correct about those who were implicated in the point shaving scandal.... not coaches, but a couple of players, one a bench warmer. There were four players at State who admitted involvement. For those interested in following the money, it led back to NYC which is why some thought McGuire was involved, true or not.

The probation mentioned earlier was based on recruiting irregularities, not point shaving. I think there was also concern about the behavior on the bench which encouraged many of the legendary fights of the time. To their credit, Chancellor Aycock and AD Erickson recognized the serious problems Frank McGuire brought along with the success in the NCAA tournament and worked to get him to leave...... landing him soon after at the other Carolina.

The times of the fifties and sixties were quite different in many ways compared to today. We can thank many honorable people from that time who set the foundation for much of the good we enjoy in college sports today.

devildeac
02-09-2009, 01:27 PM
If you are referring to the ribald message on a bed sheet during the 1973 game, that was me. ;)

Ding, ding, ding. I THINK we have the winner...

Jim3k
02-09-2009, 06:05 PM
Somewhat before my interest in basketball. Did these rumors involve the national championship team or was it post. When Larry Brown was there? what years? Fascinating.

The New York guys on the National Championship team could well have played pick up games with some of the guys involved in the '51 scandal. I know that Larry Brown, when he was at UNC, used to play pick up on the Island with Edie Garde, whom he has said taught him more about the street ball aspects of the game than anyone. Garde was at the vortex of the '51 scandal. Interesting.

No. They are talking about 1960-61. Brown was a soph. The Dixie Classic was canceled due to the second scandal. There were some State players involved as well. IIRC, Frank McGuire was deemed to not have control over his players' connections to professional gamblers. IIRC, Doug Moe was kind of a hero, in that he reported a gambler's approach.

Edit: For clarity, it was UNC's Lou Brown, not Larry, who was involved. The NCSU players were Don Gallagher, Stan Niewierowski, Anton Muehlbauer and Terry Litchfield

There are better resources out there than my memory from that era

Rogue
02-09-2009, 06:27 PM
I'm old, but can't recall all the details,, but I think unc-ch and ncsc were sanctioned by the NC legislators , not the NCAA. They limited their scholarships and number of games they could play in a season.

greybeard
02-09-2009, 06:43 PM
No. They are talking about 1960-61. Brown was a soph. The Dixie Classic was canceled due to the second scandal. There were some State players involved as well. IIRC, Frank McGuire was deemed to not have control over his players' connections to professional gamblers. IIRC, Doug Moe was kind of a hero, in that he reported a gambler's approach.

Edit: For clarity, it was UNC's Lou Brown, not Larry, who was involved. The NCSU players were Don Gallagher, Stan Niewierowski, Anton Muehlbauer and Terry Litchfield

There are better resources out there than my memory from that era

Larry, at that time, was the all-but adopted son of his current agent, Joe Glass; on that basis alone, no way Brown would have been involved in such stuff. As I remember him, Joe, the father of a former teammate of mine, was one incredible man.

Nevertheless, it is pretty wild that Larry for sure, and probably your boy Artie as well, used to play during summers in their college years at a court near where I lived with Edie Garde, who, as I said, was at the vortex of the '51 scandal. I started going to that court one summer in the early 70s and Garde still ruled. He was a very quiet and generous man, who could make anybody he played with look like a real ballplayer, even guys who could neither run nor jump worth a damn. ;) It was not until a handful of years ago, when I ran into my former teammate, that I learned who Garde was and how highly Brown thought of him.

Devil in the Blue Dress
02-09-2009, 07:06 PM
I'm old, but can't recall all the details,, but I think unc-ch and ncsc were sanctioned by the NC legislators , not the NCAA. They limited their scholarships and number of games they could play in a season.

I think the NCAA did put UNC on probation for improper recruiting activities, but I also seem to recall that the legislature imposed some restrictions as well on State and Carolina because of the point shaving scandal.

In addition to the gambling issues flying about at the time, Carolina's administration (Chancellor Aycock and others) did not like McGuire's free spending of cash without the usual documentation expected for tracking the source of the money and how it was spent. They also saw the behavior of the bench as contributing to the outbreak of fights which occurred during games of that period. At times McGuire's language was an embarrassment to the university. McGuire had a way of behaving as if he didn't have to answer to anyone and that attracted boosters who cultivated a direct line to the coach.

As another footnote to set the scene of the times, this was the era of the North Carolina "speaker ban" law which limited who could be invited to speak at colleges and universities funded with public money. As a contrast, this is the same era when John Kennedy was elected president. It was a time of great conflicts and many changes throughout society.

Indoor66
02-09-2009, 07:21 PM
I think the NCAA did put UNC on probation for improper recruiting activities, but I also seem to recall that the legislature imposed some restrictions as well on State and Carolina because of the point shaving scandal.

In addition to the gambling issues flying about at the time, Carolina's administration (Chancellor Aycock and others) did not like McGuire's free spending of cash without the usual documentation expected for tracking the source of the money and how it was spent. They also saw the behavior of the bench as contributing to the outbreak of fights which occurred during games of that period. At times McGuire's language was an embarrassment to the university. McGuire had a way of behaving as if he didn't have to answer to anyone and that attracted boosters who cultivated a direct line to the coach.

As another footnote to set the scene of the times, this was the era of the North Carolina "speaker ban" law which limited who could be invited to speak at colleges and universities funded with public money. As a contrast, this is the same era when John Kennedy was elected president. It was a time of great conflicts and many changes throughout society.

unc was limited to one scholaship recruit in '61 and '62. IRRC those two were Billy Cunningham (6'6") in '61 and Bob Bennett (6'8" center) in '62.

Rogue
02-09-2009, 09:28 PM
Devil In A Blue Dress,, you are correct,, they did go on probation

"In 1960, the Tar Heels were placed on NCAA probation for "improper recruiting entertainment" of basketball prospects--to date, the only time any sport at UNC has been sanctioned by the NCAA. As a result, they were barred from the 1961 NCAA tournament and also withdrew from the 1961 ACC Tournament. Following the season, Chancellor William Aycock forced McGuire to resign. As a replacement, Aycock selected one of McGuire's assistants, Dean Smith."

greybeard
02-09-2009, 10:17 PM
Devil In A Blue Dress,, you are correct,, they did go on probation

"In 1960, the Tar Heels were placed on NCAA probation for "improper recruiting entertainment" of basketball prospects--to date, the only time any sport at UNC has been sanctioned by the NCAA. As a result, they were barred from the 1961 NCAA tournament and also withdrew from the 1961 ACC Tournament. Following the season, Chancellor William Aycock forced McGuire to resign. As a replacement, Aycock selected one of McGuire's assistants, Dean Smith."

So Brien McSweeney, captain of UNC's 63 team, was one of McGurie's final recruits. I came to know Brian causually in later years, we both played ball at our mutual high school one summer, and he was a terrific guy. His old man, however, the school's athletic director, was a lush and a manipulative son-of-a-b#4%@. I'm thinking that a case of bud, and a bottle of Johnny Walker would have done it for him to push Brian McQuire's way. Brian himself would have had no part in being bough; no way. Come to think of it, he probably played with Garde too. Everybody went to that court which, in addtion to Garde, had two St. John's All American's from the mid 50s as regualrs, Alan Seiden and Bob Zwalick, who was 6'6" and certifiably nuts. There was some noise at the time of Seiden's death a few years ago that he lost his chance at the pros because of his friendship with Garde, whom he would never cut loose. His family swears that Seiden was clean that he and Garde were kindred spirits, Seiden, a real strange dude, wasn't givin up his boy for nobody or nothing.

Stories make life's texture. This was fun. The Alan and Zwalick were both egomaniacs, Zwalick was freakin dangerous. Later learned he went to jail for trying to kill somebody. Had I known, I wouldn't have thrown back. "Glory days, a wink in a young girl's eye, glory days . . . . "

JStuart
02-10-2009, 03:08 PM
Just to show that my memory isn't so bad -and my reference skills are still good- here's the SI archive quotation on Prof. Karl:

"Still, even when he was at his most smart-I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this., most people couldn't help but like Karl. He was a political-science major, a pretty good student at Chapel Hill, but in his last semester he blew off one course, in ancient history. Invited to tour with a U.S. national team against the Soviets, he had to petition the professor to take an early exam. He didn't know jack, and the professor knew he didn't know jack. Luckily, the professor was a big Tar Heels- George Karl fan. "Study the chapters on the Peloponnesian War," he told Karl.

"But, sir, I'm afraid I don't know any—"

"Study them."

He did. When he was handed the special exam, it had only one question. It was, in its entirety: "Who won the Peloponnesian War?" Karl wrote down " Sparta," left on tour and graduated with his class."

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1024244/4/index.htm