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View Full Version : MBB: Clemson 74, Duke 47 Post-Game Thread



Mr Blue Devil
02-04-2009, 11:12 PM
Possibly the worst I have seen Duke play in years but at the same time this is why I love College Basketball. Clemson and Miami both proved anything can happen anytime and anywhere.

Duke played horribly but this is not the team we know and love. I have full faith they will rebound from this loss and it will only make them stronger.

I'll be wearing my Duke polo to work tomorrow to show everyone how proud I am of this team, win or lose.

I look forward to Miami on Saturday!

GO DUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mike88
02-04-2009, 11:15 PM
Well, I can't say I'm completely surprised about our loss to Clemson, although I am a little surprised by the margin and our inability to handle the full-court pressure. One thing for sure- it was a team effort- everyone played poorly.

Our back-loaded conference schedule, plus a couple of poor performances by our higher-quality early season opponents (Xavier and Purdue), set up what I believe are unrealistic expectations for our team. We are not good enough at this point to beat outstanding (top ten) teams on the road; we probably won't even beat all the "good" (top 30) teams on the road, and we may even drop 2 games at home if we have off nights against either UNC or Wake. I thnk we can expect to rebound from this loss and play strongly against an inconsistent but talented Miami team. With a strong supporting effort from the crowd, we should be able to pull out a win, but not if we come with less than an inspired effort and execution.

At the beginning of the ACC season, I thought 11-5 or 12-4 was a realistic expectation, but 10-6 was certainly possible. I think that is about where we are headed. Looking forward to March, the Sweet Sixteen game should be a good marker for us- a win would constiute a successful season; a loss in that game or earlier would be disappointing to me.

Reisen
02-04-2009, 11:15 PM
I don't see one started, and the in-game thread is locked, so...

Not much to add, only that I've been a Duke fan for just over 10 years (fall of 1998). Our last 20 point loss was spring of 1998, so I had literally, never experienced anything like this. As hard as it is to watch, I wonder if any other team can boast that long a run of never getting blown out?

I'll be watching this team for the rest of the season with excitement and interest... I predict they'll turn it around in a big way.

ChicagoDevil
02-04-2009, 11:15 PM
Just a thought....sometimes you are the bug and sometimes you are the windshield....Its the ACC, they are a top 10 team, they played hard, we were not ourselves. Learn from it and shake it off. While I wish the outcome was better for us...next play....

FerryFor50
02-04-2009, 11:16 PM
I just heard Stuart Scott claim to invent the word "ridiculousness."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ridiculousness

That's on par with Al Gore inventing the internet or John McCain inventing the Blackberry. :D

Lulu
02-04-2009, 11:18 PM
Worst lost since the first UNLV game.

weezie
02-04-2009, 11:19 PM
And, at least the game was quick. Painful but quick!

superdave
02-04-2009, 11:19 PM
I hope everyone goes to bed tonight rather than sits up posting. Sleep is better for your health.

pamtar
02-04-2009, 11:21 PM
Great post! (Even though it'll be gobbled up by the PGT) I really like the idea of wearing the polo tomorrow. Very classy!

I cant believe we lost that bad. I've haven't seen Duke play like that since '95. Hats off to Clemson. Not only did they beat us, they did it in a classy manor (excluding Ogilvy, but whatever). I really like Purnell and what he's doing down there.

I hope we can rebound from this. It doesn't feel like the "sleepng giant" scenario - it seems like a bad loss. Thats basketball though...

LGD!!

KyDevilinIL
02-04-2009, 11:21 PM
...because I know the guys will.

I don't know what any of us can really add to tonight's events, but I'm opting to just shut up for a while.

BlueintheFace
02-04-2009, 11:22 PM
LT played very well and fought every second he was in the game. I think this is a very important point.

AND, if you try and point out one player to blame for the loss, everybody will laugh at you, because it will betray a fundamental stupidity and inability to analyze a basketball game.... just so you know.

bjornolf
02-04-2009, 11:22 PM
I think we all need to send some love to klemnop. You must be on cloud nine, buddy. Enjoy it!

DukeDude
02-04-2009, 11:22 PM
Next play!

chrisheery
02-04-2009, 11:23 PM
its going to be a long long long day tomorrow. i hope we can bounce back this weekend. i can't remember our boys looking that bad in a long time. i'm gonna guess everyone has the flu. (please?)

there were some (a lot) of bad calls. and, like others have said, that isn't why we lost, but when you add them all up and the timing of some of them, it really broke the spirit of our team that already had very little confidence after a rough first 10 minutes. i can't help but thinking the game wouldn't have gotten out of hand if we had gotten a call here or there at the right moment. that said, clemson played just amazing basketball and we did not play well at all. kudos to them. if they play like that against other teams, they are a top 3-4 team all year.

Kfanarmy
02-04-2009, 11:23 PM
I think I read somewhere that the team had spent a whole practice on D, no offense...They really had a difficult time with the press, seemingly unprepared as a team, not that individuals weren't doing what they thought was right, but unprepared as a team. Difference in the score at the end, I think was largely that Clemson applied the press about 4 x as much, got a trove of TOs and really took Duke's offensive confidence away. I think they've played pretty good D all season, and the offense has not been what one might expect. This seems to point out an imbalance in what is being practiced at this point in the season. Am I wrong or does this team need more set plays so that they can regain offensive rhythm when they lose it...you can play near perfect D and still lose if you can't score....

SharkD
02-04-2009, 11:24 PM
I hope everyone goes to bed tonight rather than sits up posting. Sleep is better for your health.

With my 13-day-old son in the house, what is this "sleep" of which you speak? ;)

Bluedog
02-04-2009, 11:24 PM
Clemson certainly deserved to win this game. They played with more heart, desire, energy, and poise than us, unfortunately. It's just one game, though, and I expect us to bounce back strong. I don't think this is indicative of a greater trend. We need to cut down on turnovers tremendously, make smarter passes, take it to the rim more (although this strategy probably was modified b/c of Clemson's shotblocking ability), and not be so sloppy and careless when attempting to break the press. I'm sure K will rectify things we did poorly and I think this loss will be good for us in the long run. Miami will be a good test for us, and then of course we'll really have to bring it if we want to beat UNC. I still love this team. I have confidence in this team. And I think they have confidence in themselves even though they didn't show the assertiveness that we've come to expect from Coack K coached teams. I don't ever like seeing our team being outworked - we certainly weren't so clearly outhustled in the Michigan and Wake losses. Shots were falling and I can live with that. But I cannot live with tentative ballhandling, fearful drives, and low energy. Again, I think this loss will help us improve and we'll really show what we're made of. Singler and Scheyer have been in a little slump, but they'll bounce back. G has been steady and I expect him to continue to be the star, although it'd be nice to see Singler get back to where he was. It happens. Can't always play amazingly. I'm looking forward to Miami.

Go Duke!

grossbus
02-04-2009, 11:24 PM
well, i have a bad cold. this game didn't help! :)

here is my question: was this game an anomaly or an indicator of things to come. at this moment it is beyond me, so i am going to take the above poster's advice and go to bed.

Oriole Way
02-04-2009, 11:24 PM
Definitely one of the worst losses in a decade. It was amazing how unmotivated we looked.

The last time the game was this out of hand was probably against Maryland in 2002, the game in which Steve Blake stole the ball out of Jason WIlliam's hands when J-Will was looking back to K for instructions on the final play before half.

We were dominated for the whole second half of that game, although the margin was never as bad as tonight. But it had the most similar feel to tonight. We seemed to not care, nothing went our way, and Maryland was on fire. Unfortunately, the 2002 team was about ten times more talented than this one.

I really think the only solution to our most glaring weakness - turnovers - is to move Jon Scheyer to PG. Nolan Smith is not cutting it, and it his turnovers are devastating our offense. Also devastating our offense is Scheyer's worst shooting slump of his career, and it looks like he might not come out of it against good teams. Why not have him handle the ball, since we're better off without him shooting it, and better off with his ability to take care of the ball?

Move Nolan to the bench as backup PG. Otherwise, this could be a lost season.

Saratoga2
02-04-2009, 11:25 PM
Good

Henderson still brought his offense
McClure played with intensity and was our best defender
Thomas had a very decent game

Bad

Other players didn't deal with the pressure Clemson applied and didn't look like players on a #3 team or even a ranked team.

General

Part of the blowout was due to the seaching coach K did for an effective lineup. He never found one.

The game was called in a way that favored Clemson's extremely aggressive style. We just could not match their intensity.Loads of turnovers.

If I was an opponent facing Duke, I would pllay the Clemson style, which totally rattled Duke.

SoCalDukeFan
02-04-2009, 11:25 PM
We stunk, they played great.

Next Game.

SoCal

pamtar
02-04-2009, 11:25 PM
LT played very well and fought every second he was in the game. I think this is a very important point.

AND, if you try and point out one player to blame for the loss, everybody will laugh at you, because it will betray a fundamental stupidity and inability to analyze a basketball game.... just so you know.

LT deserves a medal. He got the start and he should get the start against MIA. I'm very proud out the way he handled himself tonight.

devildeac
02-04-2009, 11:25 PM
I hope everyone goes to bed tonight rather than sits up posting. Sleep is better for your health.

I'm not so sure about that. There are a couple "great" threads on the OTB discussing pastrami and beer...:o:rolleyes:

Ian
02-04-2009, 11:26 PM
We're obviously not as bad as we played tonight.

But it's not deniable we have certain deficiencies and holes on the team that the current personnel simply are not capable of plugging.

Let's have more realistic expectations going forward.

OldSchool
02-04-2009, 11:26 PM
I have to say, K has been saying recently that this team is a work in progress and is still developing, and people seem to dismiss that statement.

I don't think this was a case so much of the team not having enough emotion or not fighting.

The main problem is we had trouble breaking a full-court press by a team that is very athletic and excellent at the full-court press. Breaking a tough press is a skill that needs to be developed, and that we need to work on, and once a team solves that it actually opens up the opportunity for quick points on the other end.

The problem was compounded by our sluggish half-court offense and cold outside shooting. We need more than G driving to the rim, we need to get some inside-out passing going.

I hope K doesn't just impose a physical practice on the team. We need more drills breaking the press, passing in and out of the interior in the half-court offense, and more practice on immediately, aggressively attacking the defense in 3-on-2 and 4-on-3 situations.

dukemsu
02-04-2009, 11:26 PM
Bad as tonight was, I wouldn't rank it anywhere near the UNLV game.

What worried me was that all of our weaknesses were exploited-seemingly at once-and that was coupled with Clemson making every tough shot. Worst I have seen a Duke team look offensively in a long, long time. It was not missing shots-it was the inability to get good looks.

We have some things to answer, but I do agree with the poster (sorry I forgot who) that said K and the staff have time to use this loss and learn from it.

dukemsu

RelativeWays
02-04-2009, 11:26 PM
I'm not going to jump to conclusions about the fate of this team for the next 5-7 weeks of playing time because this game changes so much you can't tell what will happen solely based on performance. I will say that if this game does not wake up our team and drive them to play better, then nothing will, and we can run through all the doomsday scenarios we've exhausted since JJ's senior year. This was not a last second loss to former number 1 WFU. This is not a hard fought loss to a very game Michigan team who was playing very well at the beginning of the season. This isn't even the hard loss we took to Clemson in last years ACC tourney. This was quite frankly a butt kicking. Just like the one Kansas gave to UNC last year, this was just like that. It was embarrassing, we didn't even crack 50!!!! I hope the guys get mad so even if they lose again, it won't be like this, the other team will know damn well they've been in a fight. I remember a UNC coworker of mine a few years saying the one of the things he hated and admired about Duke was that you had to kick the team in the face for a full 40 minutes to beat them. Tonight, this Duke team got a boot stuck in their rear early on and were thrown out on their ear like the town drunk. I'm sure someone else will say this as well, but here's to never *bleeping* forgetting tonight.

rockymtn devil
02-04-2009, 11:26 PM
Um...on the bright side, it's only February. Nobody ever won or lost a title in the year's shortest month.

On the one hand, I'd like to say this is a "burn the tape" game. But, to paraphrase K after an embarrassing loss to UVA in the ACC tournament, let's never forget this loss (at least for the rest of this season).

This is an important point in the season for a team that has loads of potential. In consecutive weeks we have played poor, lethargic, and at times, lazy, basketball on the road against good teams. In both games we have looked slow and un-athletic. But, I am confident that the Duke team that beat Purdue, Xavier, and Florida State is the team that we should be. It's up to the players now. They can play lethargic basketball and continue to lose to good teams on the road (like Miami this weekend). Or, they can get back to playing with energy on both ends of the court. I think we'll see the latter. Use this game as motivation but, other than that, put it aside. It's like our version of the Arizona Cardinal's game in Foxboro.

Lulu
02-04-2009, 11:26 PM
Well Wake should love us... talk about stealing the show.

77devil
02-04-2009, 11:27 PM
Coack K to Bob Harris: "I don't think a Duke team ever has played this bad." K sounds very upset.

willywoody
02-04-2009, 11:27 PM
Worst lost since the first UNLV game.

I agree. They gave up and that's not acceptable. anyway, get out there and kick butt guys. you have the talent. do it!

dukeballer2294
02-04-2009, 11:27 PM
The only 2 things that kept me from yelling at my Tv(which i did frequently in the first half) was to see ogelsby miss the dunk and kyle tip the ball away. Man those were great. We will learn from this as every good team should after a horrible loss. But im not so sure about beating Miami... in the past going into the Miami game after a loss the results havent been pretty. Either way id be scared if i was the heels.

SharkD
02-04-2009, 11:28 PM
K's on the radio -- "...not a performance worthy of a Duke team. We didn't want the game for some reason. No one's hurt or anything... we didn't play hard enough to get hurt... Really, an embarrassing performance. I'm embarrassed for my team... by my team.... It's not worthy of the uniform.... There's nothing worse than that. There wasn't one kid who gave it to us." (All quotes are verbatim.)

NashvilleDevil
02-04-2009, 11:29 PM
I am sure everyone took a deep breath when they saw Henderson rubbing his right hand when the Clemson players was at the free throw line. I hope that it is only minor and does not affect his play like his wrist injury did last year.

As for the game, after Singler threw the inbound pass away for the 3rd time I knew it was going to be a long night. It was just one of those nights where everything that could go wrong for Duke did and everything for Clemson worked. It is still a long season and I am sure that they will rebound from this.

flyingdutchdevil
02-04-2009, 11:29 PM
Been said many times, but Clemson had more heart, more intensity and a little more luck. Pop in the fact that they are a top 10 team, and they are virtually impossible to beat. Terrible game for Duke, great experience.

On a side note, Ogelsby may be my least favorite player in the ACC outside of the UNC roster. Those two 3s he jacked up at the end was completely uncalled for.

SharkD
02-04-2009, 11:30 PM
K continued: "It's so bad, there's nothing that I can compare it to... Duke teams just cannot play that way... it's unacceptable of a Duke team."

pamtar
02-04-2009, 11:30 PM
K crying (I think) as he prounounced "we didn't have heart." "A Duke team cant play that way." I love that guy.

dukemsu
02-04-2009, 11:31 PM
K's on the radio -- "...not a performance worthy of a Duke team. We didn't want the game for some reason. No one's hurt or anything... we didn't play hard enough to get hurt... Really, an embarrassing performance. I'm embarrassed for my team... by my team.... It's not worthy of the uniform.... There's nothing worse than that. There wasn't one kid who gave it to us."

Cannot say I agree with K on this one. I thought Lance was tough. Can't disagree with the rest of it, though.

dukemsu

Ben63
02-04-2009, 11:31 PM
I just heard Stuart Scott claim to invent the word "ridiculousness."

Even if we had LeBron James tonight I'm not sure it would have helped. We played that poorly. Worst performance I have ever seen from a Duke team.

NYC Duke Fan
02-04-2009, 11:32 PM
Mike88's post was on target. Being # 1 was a joke...I think everyone realized that. Being # 3 or 4 is also a joke.

We are probably anywhere from a 6 to a 12 team that is about it. A really good team does not get blown out like Duke did tonight. While UNC and UCONN did lose this year they would never get blown away like Duke did tonight.

There was talk previously that maybe Duke was a Final 4 team...I cannot see that happening. This team has the potential of losing in the second round of the tournament and also possibly making into the elite 8...that is probably the up side.

Klemnop
02-04-2009, 11:32 PM
This game puts things in perspective - these are just kids, and there's absolutely no consistency. We were horrible against UNC. Great tonight. Average against Wake. UNC, Wake and DUke can all point to their own string of games that are similarly confounding.

Clemson isn't as bad as they looked against UNC nor as good as they looked tonight.

That said, of the three top tier conference opponents, Clemson matches up - BY FAR - best against Duke. Our bigs are stronger and more athletic, our guards can hang in and our depth makes a difference. Wake's size and athleticism and UNC's size make life difficult for us. But our last two games against Duke have felt like very comfortable match-ups. It's personnel. Plain and simple.

I thought the officiating completely favored Clemson. No other way to say it. No individual call makes for a 27 point spread, but the cumulative effect is real. For what it's worth, what Duke fans feel like tonight is what Clemson fans have felt like for 35 years and more. The aggregate impact of lopsided officiating is real.

Next play. (Right?)

Klemnop

Ian
02-04-2009, 11:32 PM
I would disagree with coach K only that I thought LT played pretty hard the entire time he was out there.

But I'm sure coach wasn't in the mood to pay anyone compliments.

Oriole Way
02-04-2009, 11:32 PM
Been said many times, but Clemson had more heart, more intensity and a little more luck. Pop in the fact that they are a top 10 team, and they are virtually impossible to beat. Terrible game for Duke, great experience.

On a side note, Ogelsby may be my least favorite player in the ACC outside of the UNC roster. Those two 3s he jacked up at the end was completely uncalled for.

It's uncalled for, but most players hate Duke and are going to take every chance they can to rub it in when they are up so big, especially a cocky shooter like him. After all, his school hadn't even won in 20 straight tries during the regular season.

huied
02-04-2009, 11:33 PM
As a game, this was terrible in all aspects. Poor shooting, poor rebounding, poor defense, poor offense. But, I think this is very valuable as a wake up call. This won't be the last press we face this season, and we'll have to be ready to handle it next time.

Clemson flat out played tonight. I haven't seen a team this geeked to place us in a while, and they clearly deserved the win. The question is why they can't get up like this for UNC.

We'll learn from this and get better. I don't think we need to adjust our expectations or anything just because of one really bad performance. It's a long season, and we clearly had an off night against a team that was clearly having a great night. No need to hit the panic button...yet. :p

DukeFencer
02-04-2009, 11:34 PM
Title of CBS recap is:

"Clemson crushes Duke, completes season sweep of Blue Devils"

What? They do reference that this is the second consecutive win by Clemson after a win in the ACCs last year, but in now way does that title make sense.

BlueintheFace
02-04-2009, 11:34 PM
quick turnaround too with a game on Saturday. What are the chances that K just says. "Practice yourselves" tomorrow and leaves them to it?

FireOgilvie
02-04-2009, 11:35 PM
I really think the only solution to our most glaring weakness - turnovers - is to move Jon Scheyer to PG. Nolan Smith is not cutting it, and it his turnovers are devastating our offense. Also devastating our offense is Scheyer's worst shooting slump of his career, and it looks like he might not come out of it against good teams. Why not have him handle the ball, since we're better off without him shooting it, and better off with his ability to take care of the ball?

Move Nolan to the bench as backup PG. Otherwise, this could be a lost season.

Good idea. Let's start the guy with 36 TOs (while not playing point guard) instead of the guy with 41 TOs (while playing point guard). I think that will really help a lot in cutting down turnovers.

Nolan is not the problem. No one looked good today breaking the press, including Scheyer.

KyDevilinIL
02-04-2009, 11:35 PM
K crying (I think) as he prounounced "we didn't have heart." "A Duke team cant play that way." I love that guy.

Wow, if K really is that emotional about it, then I really feel bad for the guy. I usually don't give much thought to his basketball-related feelings, since he is a grown-up and a professional and all. But man, if he's actually getting choked up over this, that really hits me in an odd way. How often does he let on that he's that let down by his own players? He's often tough, and sometimes downright mean and forceful with the guys, but I don't remember too many times when he seemed so affected by a February loss.

Surely the guys will respond to this, and to K.

Oriole Way
02-04-2009, 11:38 PM
Good idea. Let's start the guy with 36 TOs (while not playing point guard) instead of the guy with 41 TOs (while playing point guard). I think that will really help a lot in cutting down turnovers.

Nolan is not the problem. No one looked good today breaking the press, including Scheyer.

Scheyer is a better playmaker than Nolan. He has the ability to get to the line. I think it's worth a look, because turnovers are this team's #1 problem, and lack of solid PG play is the primary reason. If you don't think Nolan is part of that problem, we will have to agree to disagree.

Your use of stats is also short-sighted, and selective. Why not mention that our starting point guard has more turnovers than assists? And I don't understand why you ignore the fact that Scheyer has a nearly 2:1 assist to turnover ratio, which is ridiculously better than Nolan.

And since you mention that Jon has a lot of turnovers not playing the point, I will counter your argument by pointing out that Jon has more than 20 more assists than Nolan - while not playing point guard. I really think Jon's assists would go up and he could maintain his current ratio, or at least something respectable, and it would make Duke a better team.

NashvilleDevil
02-04-2009, 11:38 PM
Even if we had LeBron James tonight I'm not sure it would have helped. We played that poorly. Worst performance I have ever seen from a Duke team.

LeBron did go for 52 and 11 assists tonight so that could have matched Clemson.

jipops
02-04-2009, 11:38 PM
Hat's off to Clemson, they were simply awesome! They did everything right tonight and their defense was spectacular. Even if Duke had put up a fight tonight, the Tigers would have come out on top.

K's post game comments were somber for lack of a better description. "No heart" was the theme. He couldn't believe he was saying this about a Duke team but there it was.

We were manhandled by Miami last year but did fight back to make the score somewhat respectable at the end. There was no fight at all tonight. I've been watching Duke basketball since the late 70's and through all the K years and this has to be the very first time I've seen a Duke team give up with an entire half left to play. Sure the matchup was not in our favor and Clemson was far superior physically tonight, but there were no hard drives to the basket, no dives for loose balls, nothing remotely similar to what we've seen in games past. No surprise at all the Tigers won, the real shocker is the Duke team that showed (didn't show) up.

Back to Clemson, I mean seriously, these guys were incredible in every phase of the game. The guard play was terrific, the defensive tenacity was terrific, the bigs were all over the place scrapping for everything. I sure do wish they were playing UNC again.

SharkD
02-04-2009, 11:39 PM
K wasn't crying -- he sounded like he'd had the wind knocked out of his sails, though. I don't think I've ever heard him sound so bad, even when battling a cold.

Highlander
02-04-2009, 11:40 PM
Mike88's post was on target. Being # 1 was a joke...I think everyone realized that. Being # 3 or 4 is also a joke.

We are probably anywhere from a 6 to a 12 team that is about it. A really good team does not get blown out like Duke did tonight. While UNC and UCONN did lose this year they would never get blown away like Duke did tonight.

There was talk previously that maybe Duke was a Final 4 team...I cannot see that happening. This team has the potential of losing in the second round of the tournament and also possibly making into the elite 8...that is probably the up side.

Just wanted to note that by your logic, you could replace the word "Duke" with the word "Wake" in your post and it would still be accurate.

KyDevilinIL
02-04-2009, 11:40 PM
quick turnaround too with a game on Saturday. What are the chances that K just says. "Practice yourselves" tomorrow and leaves them to it?

Ha. I'm a big fan of motivational stunts, even if right now might not be the best time. It'd be awesome if the team didn't even see K between tonight and game time Saturday. Just to see how much fire the guys have in them and how they manage to handle this amongst themselves.

That said, I kinda sense that the guys need K's influence and guidance right about now, perhaps more than ever.

dbd4ever
02-04-2009, 11:40 PM
Well, I can't say I'm completely surprised about our loss to Clemson, although I am a little surprised by the margin and our inability to handle the full-court pressure. One thing for sure- it was a team effort- everyone played poorly.

Our back-loaded conference schedule, plus a couple of poor performances by our higher-quality early season opponents (Xavier and Purdue), set up what I believe are unrealistic expectations for our team. We are not good enough at this point to beat outstanding (top ten) teams on the road; we probably won't even beat all the "good" (top 30) teams on the road, and we may even drop 2 games at home if we have off nights against either UNC or Wake. I thnk we can expect to rebound from this loss and play strongly against an inconsistent but talented Miami team. With a strong supporting effort from the crowd, we should be able to pull out a win, but not if we come with less than an inspired effort and execution.

At the beginning of the ACC season, I thought 11-5 or 12-4 was a realistic expectation, but 10-6 was certainly possible. I think that is about where we are headed. Looking forward to March, the Sweet Sixteen game should be a good marker for us- a win would constiute a successful season; a loss in that game or earlier would be disappointing to me.


Okay, this is a gut-check for the team and us as fans!! I always like to check the boards for comments after every game and especially the losses to see what the other guys on this board(especially some of the veterans and mods) have to say about the team and to get some insight on things that a broadcast might not cover. But after the losses there are always these realistic expectation posts from these people who are just waiting in the wings to tell everyone that they have been expecting this and that they knew it all along and to give everyone else an "I told you so" about what this team is really capable of for the year. This is one loss and we are still 19-3 on the year and a top ten team!! And I don't know if you noticed, but everyone loses, hence there aren't any undefeated teams in the country. So just stop the doom and gloom crap about this team is not a contender!! WE ARE DUKE!!! We are always important and always a contender! Let the players and the coaches determine how good we are by doing what they can to compete for a national title. I Love this team and the players on it!! Every one of the national title teams had bad games to conference opponents and that's the way we should look at this one. Next Play!!!

geraldsneighbor
02-04-2009, 11:40 PM
I watched the tape from last year at Carolina and we are doing nothing the same way. We don't run the weave, we don't spread the floor, and now we can't even hold the ball. I'd try to duplicate last year as much as possible since Scheyer isn't himself. This team needs change for a game atleast.

G Paulus
G Henderson
F Singler
F McClure
F Insert big man here

It's tough to be possitive about a game like this when I can't recall a time a team has been blown out like this and gone on to win a NC. I think Nova was in the 80's, so I'm exactly banking on something that hasn't happened for 25 years.

Please relay Coach's comments and anything else from the broadcast on here. Thanks.

RelativeWays
02-04-2009, 11:41 PM
I'm just going to bring up that UVA game again from either 91, or maybe 92, Laettner was on the team and it was one of our national championship teams. UVA punked Duke by double digits pretty badly in Charlottesville that year and the team responded by clobbering the rest of ACC competition during the regular season. That team has a lot of better players than this year, but the premise is the same. I guess we'll wait and see what happens Saturday. Personally I'd do anything to punish the next opponent. However, a back to back loss with Miami as one of those teams does not bode well.

bird
02-04-2009, 11:42 PM
I think more important than the loss is how the team reacts to the loss. I remember a 1990 embarrassment, followed by two national championships. I remember a senior night fiasco and key injury, followed by a truly great run. Not every Duke team has used a disaster as a pivot. Now, if we come out and handle Miami, that tells us one thing. If Miami handles us at home, that tells us something different. Its moments like this that memories of great, and disastrous, seasons are made. Crazies - pack Cameron, don't leave a naked corner like you did against Virginia. Bring it guys. There may be no more important game this season until we hit the NCAA tourney.

OldSchool
02-04-2009, 11:42 PM
Scheyer is a better play-maker than Nolan. He has the ability to get to the line. I think it's worth a look, because turnovers are this team's #1 problem, and lack of solid PG play is the primary reason. If you don't think Nolan is part of that problem, we will have to agree to disagree.

Scheyer is better at attacking a 3-on-2 situation than Nolan or Greg. Jon is best at reading the situation, and making the right decision as to whether to score himself or draw the defense, identify the open man and make the right pass.

However, I am not in favor of moving Jon to the point.

pamtar
02-04-2009, 11:42 PM
Wow, if K really is that emotional about it, then I really feel bad for the guy. I usually don't give much thought to his basketball-related feelings, since he is a grown-up and a professional and all. But man, if he's actually getting choked up over this, that really hits me in an odd way. How often does he let on that he's that let down by his own players? He's often tough, and sometimes downright mean and forceful with the guys, but I don't remember too many times when he seemed so affected by a February loss.

Surely the guys will respond to this, and to K.

I dont know if crying was the right word. He said, "it makes him choke" to say we didnt have heart. His speech sounded strained. Basically, he sounded choked up. My fault for using the "c" word.

On a side note, he said in another interview tonight about the Wake game, "we were a missed foul call...away from winning that game." Glad we're not the only ones who think that...

bgibbs1001
02-04-2009, 11:42 PM
I don't have a problem with Oglesby's two late threes. Let them enjoy it and let's hope Duke regroups and learns from this. I also think that this year's team might be one of K's best coaching jobs ever at Duke. I know Duke has 7 Mc'D AA's but that doesn't always translate to success at the college level. The inconsistency of play this year is now starting to take it's toll. And the weaknesses. ie point guard and the middle, eventually are going to hurt as they did tonite. As good a coach as K is, there is only so much he can do to compensate for those weaknesses.

KyDevilinIL
02-04-2009, 11:44 PM
I dont know if crying was the right word. He said, "it makes him choke" to say we didnt have heart. His speech sounded strained. Basically, he sounded choked up. My fault for using the "c" word.

On a side note, he said in another interview tonight about the Wake game, "we were a missed foul call...away from winning that game." Glad we're not the only ones who think that...

Fair enough. No worries. Thanks for the clarification.

longtimefan
02-04-2009, 11:47 PM
Our devils fell apart,had a bad game ect.we will be fine down the stretch.one loss doesn't define our beloved devils .if our devils come to play we can beat anyone.

jkidd31
02-04-2009, 11:48 PM
Definitely one of the worst losses in a decade. It was amazing how unmotivated we looked.

The last time the game was this out of hand was probably against Maryland in 2002, the game in which Steve Blake stole the ball out of Jason WIlliam's hands when J-Will was looking back to K for instructions on the final play before half.

We were dominated for the whole second half of that game, although the margin was never as bad as tonight. But it had the most similar feel to tonight. We seemed to not care, nothing went our way, and Maryland was on fire. Unfortunately, the 2002 team was about ten times more talented than this one.


I was wondering when the last time we got it so thoroughly handed to us and I'll have to second the Maryland game.

I just hope we didn't peak in January again and February and March will be a struggle.

NashvilleDevil
02-04-2009, 11:48 PM
I'm just going to bring up that UVA game again from either 91, or maybe 92, Laettner was on the team and it was one of our national championship teams. UVA punked Duke by double digits pretty badly in Charlottesville that year and the team responded by clobbering the rest of ACC competition during the regular season. That team has a lot of better players than this year, but the premise is the same. I guess we'll wait and see what happens Saturday. Personally I'd do anything to punish the next opponent. However, a back to back loss with Miami as one of those teams does not bode well.

I was thinking the same thing. I believe it was the 1st title team that had the blowout because the 91-92 only lost 2 games (Wake and UNC). They will learn from this game. If they do lose again I am sure they will play with more energy and heart than they did tonight. I still think this team is a Final Four contender, Singler and Scheyer will get out of their funks and Nolan will get better. I just hope that Henderson did not hurt his wrist to much. We all saw how he played last year after he hurt his wrist.

quickgtp
02-04-2009, 11:48 PM
I watched the tape from last year at Carolina and we are doing nothing the same way. We don't run the weave, we don't spread the floor, and now we can't even hold the ball. I'd try to duplicate last year as much as possible since Scheyer isn't himself. This team needs change for a game atleast.

G Paulus
G Henderson
F Singler
F McClure
F Insert big man here

It's tough to be possitive about a game like this when I can't recall a time a team has been blown out like this and gone on to win a NC. I think Nova was in the 80's, so I'm exactly banking on something that hasn't happened for 25 years.

Please relay Coach's comments and anything else from the broadcast on here. Thanks.


AMEN on this. IMO we could put Thomas in for McClure and Plumlee in at the 5. Something is up with Jon, and maybe going back to the 6th man role would give him a spark?

Highlander
02-04-2009, 11:48 PM
Not sure what else there is to say. The things that annoyed me the most were the lack of hustle. I wanted to scream when Clemson went in for a late dunk and Smith just let the guy go, or when Henderson got his pocket picked and jogged up the court on the break.

I'll give Clemson credit. They played great Defense, and their press really frustrated us. We had 16 baskets and 16 turnovers. The sad thing to see was that Clemson broke our will tonight, and we gave up. In no way, shape, or form, did we deserve to win that game.

I thought Kyle's move to poke the ball away at the end when Clemson was dribbling out the clock was bush league. He should have just kept walking.

I hope some good comes out of this, because we've got two very tough games ahead of us over the next week.

Next Play.

geraldsneighbor
02-04-2009, 11:48 PM
What can we do though? Is it Nolan? Are we not big enough? Is there heart on this team? I thought we were a team improving, now I feel like that isn't so. Kyle has become a 3 point shooter only, and Jon is playing like me in a rec center. There's a whole lot to figure out between now and Saturday, and maybe it'll be a good thing that UNC will be favored in Cameron.

Oriole Way
02-04-2009, 11:49 PM
Scheyer is better at attacking a 3-on-2 situation than Nolan or Greg. Jon is best at reading the situation, and making the right decision as to whether to score himself or draw the defense, identify the open man and make the right pass.

However, I am not in favor of moving Jon to the point.

You just highlighted many great reasons for doing exactly that - moving Jon to the point. Yet you conclude that you wouldn't do it, without providing any reasons. Why do you not like moving Jon to the point?

geraldsneighbor
02-04-2009, 11:50 PM
AMEN on this. IMO we could put Thomas in for McClure and Plumlee in at the 5. Something is up with Jon, and maybe going back to the 6th man role would give him a spark?

And, let me be clear here. I am not saying this is the answer for UNC and the games past that. I think this could be a nice one game spark and maybe ease the tension with Jon.

DU Band Prez 88
02-04-2009, 11:51 PM
I think more important than the loss is how the team reacts to the loss. I remember a 1990 embarrassment, followed by two national championships. I remember a senior night fiasco and key injury, followed by a truly great run. Not every Duke team has used a disaster as a pivot. Now, if we come out and handle Miami, that tells us one thing. If Miami handles us at home, that tells us something different. Its moments like this that memories of great, and disastrous, seasons are made. Crazies - pack Cameron, don't leave a naked corner like you did against Virginia. Bring it guys. There may be no more important game this season until we hit the NCAA tourney.

The next time Cameron will be packed will one week from tonight vs. UNC.

The season is not over for Duke. Simply put, Clemson completely dominated every aspect of the game tonight - a complete butt-kicking - it was MUCH more about how great they played than how poorly Duke played, or what lack of heart Duke showed. They are an excellent team, deserving of a top-10 ranking. As other posters have pointed out, Duke has significant matchup problems with them. I believe that the Duke team will respond to this loss in a big way.

RelativeWays
02-04-2009, 11:51 PM
The Miami game is going to be very important, possibly as important as the UNC game. Thinking back just a couple of seasons ago, how Duke teams rebound (or don't rebound) from a tough loss can be an indicator on how they'll perform in some of the later games. In the 05-06 season, I knew after we lost to UNC at home on senior night, after suffering a close but embarrassing loss to the 'noles just a few days before that a national championship was highly unlikely, because national championship teams always respond to adversity. Last year when we dropped a game the game to Wake at LJVM and were getting blown out by Miami until the last 8 minutes only to lose by 2, we could see our team had some issues. I can't even remember when the ball dropped for the 06-07 team but it wasn't long after ACC play began. Its gut check time for our team and us as fans.

geraldsneighbor
02-04-2009, 11:52 PM
The next time Cameron will be packed will one week from tonight vs. UNC.

The season is not over for Duke. Simply put, Clemson completely dominated every aspect of the game tonight - a complete butt-kicking - it was MUCH more about how great they played than how poorly Duke played, or what lack of heart Duke showed. They are an excellent team, deserving of a top-10 ranking. As other posters have pointed out, Duke has significant matchup problems with them. I believe that the Duke team will respond to this loss in a big way.

If that's the case and we are really 27 points worse then Clemson, what is there to look forward to?

BD80
02-04-2009, 11:52 PM
In addition to lazy passes against the press, our guys were not moving toward the "trapped" player to get the ball. I don't think we had even one back door play, which is the typical counter to teams that overplay the passing lanes like Clemson was doing. Not even a backside alley-oop.

To call the team flat would be an insult to 2-dimensional objects.

On the plus side, Mile and Elliot did not look out of place and got some meaningful minutes.

And the "NBA stock" threads should be dormant for a while.

And we are 19-3 with more games to play and chances to improve.

And we still have the best coach in basketball.

And we have a group of tough-minded players that will improve.

MulletMan
02-04-2009, 11:53 PM
The next time Cameron will be packed will one week from tonight vs. UNC.



The game on Sunday is at Duke. Trust me. I have tickets.

EarlJam
02-04-2009, 11:53 PM
I just hope we didn't peak in January again and February and March will be a struggle.


I discussed this very thought with Wilson tonight. Did we hit our peak with the Maryland game?

Who knows. I was okay with the Wake loss; NOT tonight's loss. We didn't show up. We didn't compete. Maybe the arse whoopin' laid on us by Clempson will end up helping. Who knows.

Coach K has the flu.

Everything is repeating. Oh no. Oh no.


-EJ

rsvman
02-04-2009, 11:53 PM
I guess the best thing about tonight is that basketball is kind of like match-play golf. Even if you make a 12 on a par 3 you only lose one hole. Even if they beat us by 50 we could only lose one game tonight. If it were like stroke-play golf, we just lost at least 3 games, maybe 4.

I've been following Duke b-ball for 11 years and this is the worst I've ever seen them play. I remember saying to a friend a few weeks ago that even if Duke loses they never get blown out. Guess I can't say that anymore. :(

Scorp4me
02-04-2009, 11:54 PM
Look we played bad, Clemson played better and they deserved the win. Scheyer continues to be in a shooting slump. Nolan is obviously a great guard, but not the point guard we need. Someone needs to tell Pocious he is not a 3 point shooter, I don't think I've seen him make one all year. The calls were bad and the style favored Clemson, but they didn't do them in. There was very little team offense tonight and way too much one on one attempts. And I respect K, he's the coach and has forgot tons more than this board probably knows combined about basketball, but if he's saying how poorly the players performed I hope he includes himself in the evaluation. He substitutions were erradic, he had terrible line-ups out there, and while I give him credit for continuing to search for a successful mix, he obviously didn't find it. As others have said it was a team effort loss and I'd include the coaching staff in it. There were a few good efforts, but obviously not the overriding theme of the night.

BUT there are just some games you're not going to win no matter what. When you see opposing centers banking and bouncing in 3's, tips that miraculously go in, rebounds that go directly to the opposing team, layups that rim out over and over, on and on and on...sometimes it's just not your night. That's really not an excuse just a fact...well of sorts. And when it all goes against you early along with the other factors mentioned above, well you get down pretty quick.

It was an ugly game, but it was obvious early on it was going to be an ugly game. I hate it, it sucks, the coaches should make practice hard, the coaches should take a look in the mirror as well. But it's still a fun season so far, it's still a successful season so far, and while we are still lacking some important pieces to the puzzle for a dominant team, we have more than enough to make most games competitive and even win most of them.

Course, that's just my opinion. As always.

OldSchool
02-04-2009, 11:54 PM
You just highlighted many great reasons for doing exactly that - moving Jon to the point. Yet you conclude that you wouldn't do it, without providing any reasons. Why do you not like moving Jon to the point?

Jon is more valuable to the team at the 2. To take another example, Kyle plays our best 5 but he's more valuable to the team at the 4.

Our best 5 players include Nolan. It's just that Nolan is still developing as a player with flashes of great play and some stretches of lack of focus. When his level of focus and court vision goes up a notch, because of his athletic abilities, he will raise the entire team a notch. He's working on it.

Ian
02-04-2009, 11:54 PM
You just highlighted many great reasons for doing exactly that - moving Jon to the point. Yet you conclude that you wouldn't do it, without providing any reasons. Why do you not like moving Jon to the point?

I think a lot of people are still holding out hope that Nolan can develop into a PG.

I just don't see it, it's not as if he's showing flashes of great PG play in between less stellar performances. I've never really seen anything out of him that points to a good PG. He's a scorer, he's had many games where he showed flashes of being a very good scorer, but never as a PG.

6th Man
02-04-2009, 11:54 PM
Duke has been successful this year not because of personnel, but because they have outworked everybody. Well tonight, they played a team with more talent and a team that severely outworked them. What this Duke team has accomplished is remarkable. Really think about it. Henderson and Singler are stars. Scheyer is a good player, but in a terrible slump. Outside of that, our team is not talented. But to this team's credit, they have played really hard until tonight. My hope is Duke realizes tonight how hard they have to work to win every game. They are not the kind of squad that can show up and get a W. They have to want it. I think this game will be a wake up call. I can't imagine a worse performance. Better now than March.

geraldsneighbor
02-04-2009, 11:55 PM
In addition to lazy passes against the press, our guys were not moving toward the "trapped" player to get the ball. I don't think we had even one back door play, which is the typical counter to teams that overplay the passing lanes like Clemson was doing. Not even a backside alley-oop.

To call the team flat would be an insult to 2-dimensional objects.

On the plus side, Mile and Elliot did not look out of place and got some meaningful minutes.

And the "NBA stock" threads should be dormant for a while.

And we are 19-3 with more games to play and chances to improve.

And we still have the best coach in basketball.

And we have a group of tough-minded players that will improve.

Please list what E-Will did tonight that made you think he looked good. He looks out of sort, all he does in the half-court is back the ball out and is turnover waiting to happen alot of the time. I sure don't feel comfortable with him out there. Right now there is only one or two guys I feel comfortable about though right now.

DU Band Prez 88
02-04-2009, 11:55 PM
If that's the case and we are really 27 points worse then Clemson, what is there to look forward to?

Read the last sentence of my post...

You can look forward to:
Beating Miami on Saturday.
Beating Carolina on Wednesday.

yancem
02-04-2009, 11:55 PM
Ok, so I missed the first 35 minutes of the game because I was on a plane, so imagine my surtprise when I finally get to a tv and Duke is down 27 points! Arrrrrgh!!!! Maybe this is my penance for having my Steelers win the superbowl.

Anyway, as surprised as I am that we got thumped this badly, I'm not too worried about the rest of the season. We have some tough guys who will get pissed off and bounce back with a vengence. Sometimes a little humble pie in the middle of the season will build a fire that will carry you through the end of march and into april.

I'm not sure how much I would want to be Miami this weekend.

geraldsneighbor
02-04-2009, 11:57 PM
Duke has been successful this year not because of personnel, but because they have outworked everybody. Well tonight, they played a team with more talent and a team that severely outworked them. What this Duke team has accomplished is remarkable. Really think about it. Henderson and Singler are stars. Scheyer is a good player, but in a terrible slump. Outside of that, our team is not talented. But to this team's credit, they have played really hard until tonight. My hope is Duke realizes tonight how hard they have to work to win every game. They are not the kind of squad that can show up and get a W. They have to want it. I think this game will be a wake up call. I can't imagine a worse performance. Better now than March.


I couldn't disagree more. Nolan and Scheyer have severely underachieved from how they performed earlier this year. This is essentially the same team from last year with an improved Singler and a healthy Henderson.

Devilsfan
02-04-2009, 11:57 PM
Good post, imo.
My thoughts.
1. Kyle's shots keep coming up short.
2. Booker is the type of MAN we have tried to get for 4 years (counting next year).
3. Why didn't we call a timeout in the first half.
4. This was the most embarassing loss in the modern K era.
5. I'm hoping the West Point type training session coming tomorrow can get these guys back to what we've come to love and expect.
6. We better get some confidence back by next Weds.

BlueintheFace
02-04-2009, 11:58 PM
This has LITTLE to do with this specific game besides adding another game to the trend, but Jay Bilas said it. Jon is shooting 26% in ACC play.

I was talking about this in an earlier (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=249881&postcount=36) thread a week or two ago, but I really hope Jon's slump is the more temporary sort. I know some posters like Jumbo disagree with me, but I am becoming more and more afraid every day that it is not. He really might not break out of it this season.

However, to those of you who would push Jon to the bench, I believe you would quickly see how much MORE stagnant our offense becomes. Who knows though, maybe I am wrong. Maybe Jon really is holding us back... I doubt it though.

FireOgilvie
02-05-2009, 12:00 AM
I think it's funny that many people have suddenly come out (after one bad loss) and want to completely change everything that the team does. Here are the reasons why I think we'll be OKAY:

1. Nolan Smith has been really really solid for us all year. He averages less than 2 turnovers per game. We don't have problems with turnovers from the point guard. Everyone on our team turned the ball over tonight and looked terrible breaking the press, not just Nolan.

2. We're really good. We beat both Xavier and Purdue away from Cameron. We can definitely be successful in the NCAA Tournament.

3. Clemson played out of their minds! Even if Singler, Scheyer, Smith, and everyone else show up to this one we may have lost.

4. We aren't always going to look this bad! This was a combination of getting knocked down early in a really hostile environment and then VERY UNCHARACTERISTICALLY getting down ourselves.

5. Singler and Scheyer will snap out of it. Singler is sick and Scheyer is in some kind of funk.

geraldsneighbor
02-05-2009, 12:01 AM
This has LITTLE to do with this specific game besides adding another game to the trend, but Jay Bilas said it. Jon is shooting 26% in ACC play.

I was talking about this in an earlier (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=249881&postcount=36) thread a week or two ago, but I really hope Jon's slump is the more temporary sort. I know some posters like Jumbo disagree with me, but I am becoming more and more afraid every day that it is not. He really might not break out of it this season.

However, to those of you who would push Jon to the bench, I believe you would quickly see how much MORE stagnant our offense becomes. Who knows though, maybe I am wrong. Maybe Jon really is holding us back... I doubt it though.

Anyone think his struggling is a product of our poor mans version of a spread offense we have ran lately? Maybe this isn't all Jon. We have a PG who can't penetrate the lane right now...which in turn doesn't set up your other perimeter guys.

jipops
02-05-2009, 12:03 AM
I couldn't disagree more. Nolan and Scheyer have severely underachieved from how they performed earlier this year. This is essentially the same team from last year with an improved Singler and a healthy Henderson.

I guess you didn't watch the UVA game from a few days ago. Nolan was terrific.

moonpie23
02-05-2009, 12:03 AM
Aberration: 4 : a small periodic change of apparent position in celestial bodies due to the combined effect of the motion of light and the motion of the observer.

Devil in the Blue Dress
02-05-2009, 12:03 AM
While Clemson's defense was tough and their offense effective against our defense, there may never be a clear explanation for Duke's flat play tonight. I'm sure the team and the coaches are doing a lot of soul searching on the way back to Durham and on into tomorrow's activities. Their attention will have to shift to preparations for Saturday's game with Miami.

Want to be a part of the turn around? Bring your intensity to the game.... whether you watch the game in Cameron, meet other Duke fans to watch it at a bar or watch the game at home.

And did I mention.... I plan to wear my Duke shirt tomorrow.

geraldsneighbor
02-05-2009, 12:04 AM
I think it's funny that many people have suddenly come out (after one bad loss) and want to completely change everything that the team does. Here are the reasons why I think we'll be OKAY:

1. Nolan Smith has been really really solid for us all year. He averages less than 2 turnovers per game. We don't have problems with turnovers from the point guard. Everyone on our team turned the ball over tonight and looked terrible breaking the press, not just Nolan.

2. We're really good. We beat both Xavier and Purdue away from Cameron. We can definitely be successful in the NCAA Tournament.

3. Clemson played out of their minds! Even if Singler, Scheyer, Smith, and everyone else show up to this one we may have lost.

4. We aren't always going to look this bad! This was a combination of getting knocked down early in a really hostile environment and then VERY UNCHARACTERISTICALLY getting down ourselves.

5. Singler and Scheyer will snap out of it. Singler is sick and Scheyer is in some kind of funk.


I also believe that Paulus being so ineffective on offense is one less threat like we had last year. He could open up the floor for other guys because his 3-pt shot was respected. Nolan doesn't have that same effect.

RelativeWays
02-05-2009, 12:04 AM
Aberration: 4 : a small periodic change of apparent position in celestial bodies due to the combined effect of the motion of light and the motion of the observer.


Next, define anomaly.

geraldsneighbor
02-05-2009, 12:05 AM
I guess you didn't watch the UVA game from a few days ago. Nolan was terrific.

I'm sorry but I can only give a guy so much credit for playing well against a bottom half ACC team that starts 4 freshmen.

roywhite
02-05-2009, 12:06 AM
There have been plenty of comments about fatigue being a major problem for this team, esp. at season's end.

I think we may have missed the point somewhat; we are at a disadvantage in physical strength against some teams. Size, muscle, aggressiveness---that ain't us. Take a guy like Booker; we have nobody remotely close to him physically.

So the team needs to work very hard to overcome deficits like this. And when the hard work or execution is not there, like tonight, we are physically over-matched.

The college game has become more physical even over the last 10-15 years, and we don't stack up very well in that regard against some teams.

chrisheery
02-05-2009, 12:07 AM
didn't exactly look good tonight, but I can't see blaming him for everything. Breaking a press is a team effort. Guys have to move in a coordinated fashion, anticipate the defense's movement, make smart passes and attack with a purpose. Nolan made some mistakes but it seems to me it had more to do with a lack of trust by everyone on the floor in each other when facing a pressure defense.

Clemson's defense is hyper-aggressive, even more than Duke's. If you set them up and use their attacking style against them, you can make them play on their heels. If you don't work together to attack, they dominate you. We did the latter.

dbd4ever
02-05-2009, 12:07 AM
Am I the only one who after a Duke loss gets phone calls, texts, emails, and random visits from people I hardly ever talk to just to rag me about the game????? Why are some people such idiots??

geraldsneighbor
02-05-2009, 12:07 AM
There have been plenty of comments about fatigue being a major problem for this team, esp. at season's end.

I think we may have missed the point somewhat; we are at a disadvantage in physical strength against some teams. Size, muscle, aggressiveness---that ain't us. Take a guy like Booker; we have nobody remotely close to him physically.

So the team needs to work very hard to overcome deficits like this. And when the hard work or execution is not there, like tonight, we are physically over-matched.

The college game has become more physical even over the last 10-15 years, and we don't stack up very well in that regard against some teams.


So, were screwed? We have to try and find solutions with this years cast. We can only worry about what we got, and we have to find a way. Any way.

Oriole Way
02-05-2009, 12:09 AM
Jon is more valuable to the team at the 2. To take another example, Kyle plays our best 5 but he's more valuable to the team at the 4.

Our best 5 players include Nolan. It's just that Nolan is still developing as a player with flashes of great play and some stretches of lack of focus. When his level of focus and court vision goes up a notch, because of his athletic abilities, he will raise the entire team a notch. He's working on it.

I appreciate the response.

While I agree that Singler is more valuable to the team as a 4 than a 5, I disagree about Scheyer (obviously, since I think he should play the point, at least for a trial run).

I really think Nolan's ball-handling hurts the team. He does not make good decision and makes way too many turnovers in the open floor. He doesn't know how to effectively break a press. Jon does, and has been used to do so in the past. I also think Scheyer's shooting has hurt the team for a couple of weeks now. We have two players who are not playing optimally for this team, and I think their skills would be better put to use with Scheyer manning the point and Smith coming off the bench as a combo guard.

I think Nolan has the ability to be one of our five best players. But that doesn't mean he has to start, nor does it mean he has to play the point. Manu Ginobili and Jason Terry are two good examples of combo/shooting guards who come off the bench, and it makes their teams better. I'm not saying Nolan is similar to either player, but his role could be similar. Both Ginobili and Terry are one of the three best players on their teams, but their ability to score as the sixth man makes their teams better.

Furthermore, Scheyer's shooting slump is detrimental to the team. But he can contribute in other ways. He can still get to the line, and if his primary responsibility becomes setting up his teammates first, it might lead to him getting his shot back, getting his confidence back, or both. As I mentioned before, he can still get to the line better than everyone on the team except Singler. If Jon plays the point and emphasizes attacking the rim and making his jump shot less of a priority, he might break out of his slump.

Most importantly, Nolan Smith is not a good point guard right now. Paulus is not the answer because of injuries and defensive shortcomings. Nolan may be adequate by this time next year, but if we want to make a run in the ACC and in the tournament, I believe lineup changes need to be made.

geraldsneighbor
02-05-2009, 12:09 AM
Am I the only one who after a Duke loss gets phone calls, texts, emails, and random visits from people I hardly ever talk to just to rag me about the game????? Why are some people such idiots??

I got 10 texts in a minute after the UNC game last year. I'm sorry I wear my emotion on my sleeve and like my team, but people just don't get it. You don't hear from these people after wins though? Odd.

jipops
02-05-2009, 12:11 AM
I'm sorry but I can only give a guy so much credit for playing well against a bottom half ACC team that starts 4 freshmen.


True but it's still an ACC opponent. Also, he's been a double digit scorer all year and a very good on-ball defender. I don't see how you can say Nolan has "underachieved". Maybe to your standards if you expected him to score 20 a night, but otherwise that notion is preposterous. Same goes for Scheyer, he's in a massive shooting slump, but nothing about his effort up until tonight warrants a label of underachiever.

I think you're wrong in singling out these two guys as a reaction of tonight's outcome. This was a team non-effort.

geraldsneighbor
02-05-2009, 12:12 AM
I appreciate the response.

While I agree that Singler is more valuable to the team as a 4 than a 5, I disagree about Scheyer (obviously, since I think he should play the point, at least for a trial run).

I really think Nolan's ball-handling hurts the team. He does not make good decision and makes way too many turnovers in the open floor. He doesn't know how to effectively break a press. Jon does, and has been used to do so in the past. I also think Scheyer's shooting has hurt the team for a couple of weeks now. We have two players who are not playing optimally for this team, and I think their skills would be better put to use with Scheyer manning the point and Smith coming off the bench as a combo guard.

I think Nolan has the ability to be one of our five best players. But that doesn't mean he has to start, nor does it mean he has to play the point. Manu Ginobili and Jason Terry are two good examples of combo/shooting guards who come off the bench, and it makes their teams better. I'm not saying Nolan is similar to either player, but his role could be similar. Both Ginobili and Terry are one of the three best players on their teams, but their ability to score as the sixth man makes their teams better.

Furthermore, Scheyer's shooting slump is detrimental to the team. But he can contribute in other ways. He can still get to the line, and if his primary responsibility becomes setting up his teammates first, it might lead to him getting his shot back, getting his confidence back, or both. As I mentioned before, he can still get to the line better than everyone on the team except Singler. If Jon plays the point and emphasizes attacking the rim and making his jump shot less of a priority, he might break out of his slump.

Most importantly, Nolan Smith is not a good point guard right now. Paulus is not the answer because of injuries and defensive shortcomings. Nolan may be adequate by this time next year, but if we want to make a run in the ACC and in the tournament, I believe lineup changes need to be made.

Who plays the point then in your opinion? I think it has to be Paulus because it was supposed to be his team anyway as a captain. Let him spark this team because EW isn't a point guard.

dbd4ever
02-05-2009, 12:12 AM
Thank You!!! I live in SC so I am feeling the worst of it as we speak!! But I'm getting messages from people who would normally tell you they hate basketball and how stupid I am for watching it. But now they want to call and tell me how we suck and that we lost like I didn't already know?!?!?!?!?!

geraldsneighbor
02-05-2009, 12:15 AM
True but it's still an ACC opponent. Also, he's been a double digit scorer all year and a very good on-ball defender. I don't see how you can say Nolan has "underachieved". Maybe to your standards if you expected him to score 20 a night, but otherwise that notion is preposterous. Same goes for Scheyer, he's in a massive shooting slump, but nothing about his effort up until tonight warrants a label of underachiever.

I think you're wrong in singling out these two guys as a reaction of tonight's outcome. This was a team non-effort.


My mistake then. I had said on here how underrated Scheyer was heading in to the ACC, but I think our offense has changed and there is no trust in any of our PG's. Nolan hasn't been the PG as far as distributing the ball I though he would be. He doesn't get in the paint enough to set up other guys.
The effort was down tonight no question, and we need to find a solution quickly.

dbd4ever
02-05-2009, 12:18 AM
Who plays the point then in your opinion? I think it has to be Paulus because it was supposed to be his team anyway as a captain. Let him spark this team because EW isn't a point guard.

The only thing about Paulus is being a point guard you have to see the floor and be aware of your surroundings at all times. And a good measure of a good point guard is one that can handle on-ball pressure and still conduct the offense and Paulus can't do that because he is continuously backing the opposing player up the court. You cannot do this and be a point guard in the NCAA. The good PG's in this sport face up when bringing the ball up the floor and when calling the plays on offense, but Greg has no speed off of the dribble so there is no threat of him driving to keep defenders honest!! He can't be our point guard if we are gonna go deep in the tournament!

devildownunder
02-05-2009, 12:20 AM
didn't exactly look good tonight, but I can't see blaming him for everything. Breaking a press is a team effort. Guys have to move in a coordinated fashion, anticipate the defense's movement, make smart passes and attack with a purpose. Nolan made some mistakes but it seems to me it had more to do with a lack of trust by everyone on the floor in each other when facing a pressure defense.

Clemson's defense is hyper-aggressive, even more than Duke's. If you set them up and use their attacking style against them, you can make them play on their heels. If you don't work together to attack, they dominate you. We did the latter.


You make good points about how a TEAM needs to break a press together. that's something we should keep in mind, especially me. And I don't blame Nolan for anything that goes wrong at the point position, even if it's a direct result of his play. He is out of position as a point guard and trying gamely to do the job. What we saw from him tonight was the kind of struggles you can expect when a guy is getting on-the-job training against stiff competition. Chris Duhon was a PG by nature and even though he was a junior when he took over the position for Duke it still took him an entire season to figure it all out.

I will get slammed for this in some quarters, I'm sure, but the real issue here is with recruiting and player development. Paulus was not what any of us expected him to be and no one has been brought in who adequately fills the void.

Oriole Way
02-05-2009, 12:25 AM
Who plays the point then in your opinion? I think it has to be Paulus because it was supposed to be his team anyway as a captain. Let him spark this team because EW isn't a point guard.

Jon would be the starting point. Nolan would be the first man off the bench, most likely for Gerald, and then Paulus would be the 7th man to replace Jon and handle the point. Or, Nolan could man the point for stretches, or based on matchups.

Right now, Nolan isn't even playing a traditional point anyway. He basically brings the ball up the floor, and passes it off to Jon or Gerald, and then they dribble around aimlessly until they have to jack up a 3 or make a poor attempt at penetrating. Nolan doesn't penetrate enough - and pass to his teammates for easy scores - as a point guard to make any discernible difference than if he were a shooting guard. So what's the point of having Nolan at the point if he's not the most efficient man for the job? Scheyer could just as effectively bring the ball up the floor, except he wouldn't make as many turnovers and he would make better-decisions on fast breaks, secondary breaks, and press scenarios, like the ones we saw tonight.

Many people will point out that Scheyer is at his best as a 2 guard. Well, he's simply playing the worst ball of his career (more accurately, he's shooting the worst of his career). A shooting guard's responsibility is to create good shots and score - they are a primary scoring option in most offensive schemes. Well, Scheyer isn't doing that right now. In many ways, you can make a case for Nolan having played better as a shooting guard all season - he's shooting a considerably better percentage than Jon - 45% to Jon's 39%. They both shoot the 3 about the same. Granted, Jon takes more shots, but Nolan has been a far more efficient player scoring-wise (not distribution-wise).

It makes a lot of sense to me to make a switch. I know Jon hasn't been asked to play the point before, but in Duke's system, he wouldn't be asked to drastically change his game, with the exception of perhaps taking less shots, and obviously he would initiate the point of attack on offense. But he's talented, and I really feel he would be very good in that role, and ultimately it would be in the best interests of the team.

devildownunder
02-05-2009, 12:30 AM
We might not have a "true" PG on the team next year either...

It doesn't have to be a "TRUE" pg. There are other ways to do it. Jwill was certainly no true pg. he was a lead guard. But he was also a world-class talent. I don't see anyone here or on the immediate horizon (who is already in the fold) who fits that bill. Perhaps Nolan will make the transition to become something at least similar by next year but that's a big maybe and I think to expect the metamorphosis to be completed this year is a bit unrealistic. That limits my expectations quite a bit for this year and next.

Even so, as long as we can get into practice and figure out how to break a full-court trap, which we should be able to accomplish with some focus, and as long as gerald is healthy and singler and scheyer get back to form, we can still be at least formidable this year. But I was seriously thinking about a FF run and I now believe that to be unrealistic.

geraldsneighbor
02-05-2009, 12:33 AM
It doesn't have to be a "TRUE" pg. There are other ways to do it. Jwill was certainly no true pg. he was a lead guard. But he was also a world-class talent. I don't see anyone here or on the immediate horizon (who is already in the fold) who fits that bill. Perhaps Nolan will make the transition to become something at least similar by next year but that's a big maybe and I think to expect the metamorphosis to be completed this year is a bit unrealistic. That limits my expectations quite a bit for this year and next.

Even so, as long as we can get into practice and figure out how to break a full-court trap, which we should be able to accomplish with some focus, and as long as gerald is healthy and singler and scheyer get back to form, we can still be at least formidable this year. But I was seriously thinking about a FF run and I now believe that to be unrealistic.


I agree...I thought we were FF ready, and now were back to last years team with probably more questions. Hopefully, Lance is the answer on the block and the guard play is our problem now. What a difference 2 weeks makes...

micah75
02-05-2009, 12:35 AM
Haven't seen this mentioned yet, but didn't they show Clemson being pumped up before the game by a professional motivator who was trying to instill within them the confidence that they were a legit top 10 team? Seemed to work. Props to Clemson.

OldSchool
02-05-2009, 12:38 AM
I really think Nolan's ball-handling hurts the team. He does not make good decision and makes way too many turnovers in the open floor. He doesn't know how to effectively break a press. Jon does, and has been used to do so in the past. I also think Scheyer's shooting has hurt the team for a couple of weeks now. We have two players who are not playing optimally for this team, and I think their skills would be better put to use with Scheyer manning the point and Smith coming off the bench as a combo guard.

I think Nolan has the ability to be one of our five best players. But that doesn't mean he has to start, nor does it mean he has to play the point. Manu Ginobili and Jason Terry are two good examples of combo/shooting guards who come off the bench, and it makes their teams better. I'm not saying Nolan is similar to either player, but his role could be similar. Both Ginobili and Terry are one of the three best players on their teams, but their ability to score as the sixth man makes their teams better.

Furthermore, Scheyer's shooting slump is detrimental to the team. But he can contribute in other ways. He can still get to the line, and if his primary responsibility becomes setting up his teammates first, it might lead to him getting his shot back, getting his confidence back, or both. As I mentioned before, he can still get to the line better than everyone on the team except Singler. If Jon plays the point and emphasizes attacking the rim and making his jump shot less of a priority, he might break out of his slump.

Most importantly, Nolan Smith is not a good point guard right now. Paulus is not the answer because of injuries and defensive shortcomings. Nolan may be adequate by this time next year, but if we want to make a run in the ACC and in the tournament, I believe lineup changes need to be made.

Out of the three (Greg, Jon and Nolan), Nolan is the most capable of beating his man off the dribble. It is true that Jon is a better passer and a better decision-maker. And Jon and Nolan are, of our guards, our two best defenders. But neither Jon nor Greg have Nolan's driving ability (although Jon is much closer). However, Nolan has not yet fully developed his abilities in this area. Also, his level of game focus is improved from last year but it is not yet where it needs to be. (I almost tore my hair out during the Wake game when Nolan made a lazy, half-assed pass across the top of the key, I think it was about 3 minutes left in the game, and a Wake player shot the gap and took it the other way.)

The way our offense works, it is not necessary to move Jon to the "point" to exploit his abilities. The offense works on constant ball and player movement to create and exploit favorable matchups. Whether Jon can find opportunities to score depends little on whether we assign him the job of bringing the ball upcourt at the beginning of a possession. Jon's problem is that he is simply in a shooting slump, and it is impossible to predict when he will break out of it. Even though he is not the "point" Jon is an integral part of breaking the full court press, as is Kyle and G.

I would continue to start Nolan and Jon and bring Greg off the bench for shooting, poise and leadership. I would encourage Nolan to find opportunities to take his man off the dribble and break down the defense and either score or draw away a defender from one of the bigs.

FireOgilvie
02-05-2009, 12:41 AM
Jon would be the starting point. Nolan would be the first man off the bench, most likely for Gerald, and then Paulus would be the 7th man to replace Jon and handle the point. Or, Nolan could man the point for stretches, or based on matchups.

Right now, Nolan isn't even playing a traditional point anyway. He basically brings the ball up the floor, and passes it off to Jon or Gerald, and then they dribble around aimlessly until they have to jack up a 3 or make a poor attempt at penetrating. Nolan doesn't penetrate enough - and pass to his teammates for easy scores - as a point guard to make any discernible difference than if he were a shooting guard. So what's the point of having Nolan at the point if he's not the most efficient man for the job? Scheyer could just as effectively bring the ball up the floor, except he wouldn't make as many turnovers and he would make better-decisions on fast breaks, secondary breaks, and press scenarios, like the ones we saw tonight.

Many people will point out that Scheyer is at his best as a 2 guard. Well, he's simply playing the worst ball of his career (more accurately, he's shooting the worst of his career). A shooting guard's responsibility is to create good shots and score - they are a primary scoring option in most offensive schemes. Well, Scheyer isn't doing that right now. In many ways, you can make a case for Nolan having played better as a shooting guard all season - he's shooting a considerably better percentage than Jon - 45% to Jon's 39%. They both shoot the 3 about the same. Granted, Jon takes more shots, but Nolan has been a far more efficient player scoring-wise (not distribution-wise).

It makes a lot of sense to me to make a switch. I know Jon hasn't been asked to play the point before, but in Duke's system, he wouldn't be asked to drastically change his game, with the exception of perhaps taking less shots, and obviously he would initiate the point of attack on offense. But he's talented, and I really feel he would be very good in that role, and ultimately it would be in the best interests of the team.


There's a reason why Scheyer is the 3rd string point guard. He really isn't very good at it. He is too slow to be effective against the opposing team's point guard and would be far less effective than Nolan at penetrating. You talk about Nolan like he turns the ball over frequently. He averages less than 2 TOs per game). Nolan is not Magic Johnson, but neither is Scheyer.

If Scheyer is playing point guard and Nolan is the first man off the bench, who is the next starter? McClure? That would just be substituting away Nolan's 10 points/gm for McClure's 1-2 points/gm.

Also, Scheyer does not have the quickness that Nolan does to defend the opposing team's point guard. Nolan has shown that he is a GREAT on-the-ball defender. He can't do that if he's on the bench.

There's a reason why Coach K has started Nolan this year. He has BY FAR the biggest upside of any possible player at point guard. We have been playing fantastic defense this year (outside of tonight where we gave up).

-bdbd
02-05-2009, 12:52 AM
Wow - that was a spectacularly painful game to watch tonight. :(

Not that all losses are entirely just about pain - I actually felt good after the Wake loss - but they just played so uncharacteristic for Duke. It was like they didn't care, didn't make the effort, and didn't have pride. I've not seen that on a K team in a very, very long time. Over the years, its the pride and never-say-die effort of K teams that has really been the source of pride for me.

Oh to be a fly on the wall in practice for the next couple of days..... And I wouldn't want to be in Miami's shoes coming into CIS after the collapse we witnessed tonight. Let's hope they can take this experience, tuck it under their caps for inspiration, and find another fire.

-BDBD

COYS
02-05-2009, 12:57 AM
Mike88's post was on target. Being # 1 was a joke...I think everyone realized that. Being # 3 or 4 is also a joke.

We are probably anywhere from a 6 to a 12 team that is about it. A really good team does not get blown out like Duke did tonight. While UNC and UCONN did lose this year they would never get blown away like Duke did tonight.

There was talk previously that maybe Duke was a Final 4 team...I cannot see that happening. This team has the potential of losing in the second round of the tournament and also possibly making into the elite 8...that is probably the up side.

I know others have already responded to this posts and others like it, but seriously, as horrible as this game was, you can't draw any definitive conclusions . . . definitely not trying to predict what this team's ceiling is. From a purely objective standpoint, this game is clearly an outlier. In the relatively short college basketball season where pride and honor are at stake in every game, such a loss can feel like the end of the world. This game clearly indicated that we lack a true lead guard at this point and Nolan (or Jon or someone) will have to elevate their games if we are to have a chance to go deep into March. That being said, we had a night where basically every player except Henderson and Thomas scored literally 25% of their average output. Scheyer's shooting slump combined with Singler's second off-game in a row which combined with Nolan's worst game of his entire basketball career, which combined with the inability of any of our freshmen or other subs to get anything going at all combined with Singler's foul trouble early in the second half (the fourth foul of which was really silly by Singler, even if you thought it was a charge he should never have taken that chance) combined with a strange inability to break the press due to inexplicably lazy passing. Combine all this with the strange lack of effort and fire and you get a serious beatdown. This even happens to really good teams (see: The Celtics from Dec. 25- Jan. 10).

Bottom line is, we can only know which of these issues is actually a chronic problem and which of these are passing trends after the end of the season. There are serious concerns, but ultimately none of these concerns would have been addressed even if we had won by the same margin that we lost. Let's see how the team responds before we pronounce the season dead.

ncexnyc
02-05-2009, 01:06 AM
Take two asprin and hit the rack.

On second thought, take the whole bottle.

Next play.;)

Oriole Way
02-05-2009, 01:15 AM
There's a reason why Scheyer is the 3rd string point guard. He really isn't very good at it. He is too slow to be effective against the opposing team's point guard and would be far less effective than Nolan at penetrating. You talk about Nolan like he turns the ball over frequently. He averages less than 2 TOs per game). Nolan is not Magic Johnson, but neither is Scheyer.

If Scheyer is playing point guard and Nolan is the first man off the bench, who is the next starter? McClure? That would just be substituting away Nolan's 10 points/gm for McClure's 1-2 points/gm.

Also, Scheyer does not have the quickness that Nolan does to defend the opposing team's point guard. Nolan has shown that he is a GREAT on-the-ball defender. He can't do that if he's on the bench.

There's a reason why Coach K has started Nolan this year. He has BY FAR the biggest upside of any possible player at point guard. We have been playing fantastic defense this year (outside of tonight where we gave up).

The statistic of less than two turnovers per game does not accurately assess Smith's ball-handling abilities.

Nolan Smith only plays 21 minutes a game. Jon Scheyer plays 30 minutes a game. Scheyer is basically on the floor 50% longer than Smith. That is substantial, and you're overlooking it.

The fact Scheyer has less turnovers than Smith in almost 150 more minutes illustrates that Scheyer is a far superior ball-handler and decision-maker than Nolan. Not only that, but Scheyer averages more assists per minute than Smith.

Until we can come to terms on a fair assessment of their abilities, then we are going to disagree.

JDev
02-05-2009, 01:22 AM
As "The Stranger" said, "Sometimes you eat the bear... "
While watching I thought that it looked like a flu bug or something had hit the team. They were a step slow in virtually everything they attempted to do. According to Coach K's post-game comments, that is not the case. I know Clemson deserves a ton of credit, but it was more than that. I think the final score is indicative of that. Clemson was unreal, and had Duke of played anywhere close to normal they might have still lost, but not by such a margin. The good news is this could end up being a good thing and serve as a wake-up call. Duke was just not mentally where you have to be to win a game like this, with your opponent playing for the top of the conference, and with a week to prepare. I am anxious to see how Coach K handles it, being the master motivator he is.

FireOgilvie
02-05-2009, 01:35 AM
The statistic of less than two turnovers per game does not accurately assess Smith's ball-handling abilities.

Nolan Smith only plays 21 minutes a game. Jon Scheyer plays 30 minutes a game. Scheyer is basically on the floor 50% longer than Smith. That is substantial, and you're overlooking it.

The fact Scheyer has less turnovers than Smith in almost 150 more minutes illustrates that Scheyer is a far superior ball-handler and decision-maker than Nolan. Not only that, but Scheyer averages more assists per minute than Smith.

Until we can come to terms on a fair assessment of their abilities, then we are going to disagree.

You just completely ignored almost everything I said. Go ahead and re-read the other several points I made. I also think you're looking at statistics way too much. Scheyer averages more assists and fewer turnovers while playing SHOOTING GUARD. He's not primarily guarded by the opposing team's point guard. Nolan averages roughly the same number of assists per minute as Scheyer and maybe 1 more turnover/40 minutes (while playing point guard and taking the majority of the ball-handling duties).

Assist/TO ratio WHILE NOT PLAYING PG does not lead to PG abilities. Two years ago, Josh McRoberts had a 1.4 A/TO ratio while playing F/C, better than Paulus' 1.2. Should McRoberts have played point guard? He had nearly as many assists as Paulus and far fewer TOs.

Oriole Way
02-05-2009, 01:47 AM
You just completely ignored almost everything I said. Go ahead and re-read the other several points I made. I also think you're looking at statistics way too much. Scheyer averages more assists and fewer turnovers while playing SHOOTING GUARD. He's not primarily guarded by the opposing team's point guard. Nolan averages roughly the same number of assists per minute as Scheyer and maybe 1 more turnover/40 minutes (while playing point guard and taking the majority of the ball-handling duties).

Assist/TO ratio WHILE NOT PLAYING PG does not lead to PG abilities. Two years ago, Josh McRoberts had a 1.4 A/TO ratio while playing F/C, better than Paulus' 1.2. Should McRoberts have played point guard? He had nearly as many assists as Paulus and far fewer TOs.

Of course not, McRoberts was a big man with great passing ability and ball-handling ability for a player of his size. Both of us know the difference between comparing McRoberts and Paulus, and Scheyer and Smith.

We're simply going to be in disagreement. This comes down to me thinking that Scheyer has point guard abilities and could adequately handle the point given Duke's offensive system and personnel, and you don't think that he does. That's fine, and I understand where your coming from. I have watched this team for years and have been fortunate enough to see lots of good guards play at Duke. I really believe Scheyer can play the point.

We will just have to respectfully disagree with one another. And realistically, such a move isn't going to happen. To be honest, Coach K himself would probably agree with you. I just think it would be worth a shot for a game or two, and see if it works.

Diddy
02-05-2009, 01:54 AM
Duke is what it is. We have an outstanding perimeter squad, but our interior is highly suspect.

Jon looks worn down. It is somewhat reminiscent of his frosh year, when he had to handle the playmaking responsibilities. He is pretty good at it, but it really isn't his forte, and it obviously takes a lot out of him. Now he has had a few bad shooting games, and it is just starting to spiral downward for him. Believe me, we have all been caught in a downward spiral before, and it wreaks. I hope he gets it turned arround.

Basically, we have a big 3 in G, Kyle, and Jon. When one of them starts to misfire, the whole team slows down. If 2 don't play well, Duke is in real trouble. Unfortunately 2 of our big 3, Jon and (to a lesser extent) Kyle can be slowed down by an athletic, determined defender.

The fact that the other two players on the court at any time are virtual non-threats to score make it easier to defend our team. G is unstoppable by a single player, but collapsing on him can work if the 3s aren't falling. And, as good as G is, he just is not going to score enough by himself to win. Cest La Vie.

This team can be fun to watch. But we are now 0-2 against the only really elite teams that we have faced. Xavier is solid, but in the second teir of teams. Purdue is our next best win, and that really isn't something to brag about. We can play with anybody, but I no longer expect to win every game. I think we CAN win, but I just don't expect it.

I will enjoy the team going forward and hope for the best. I also hope that Ryan and Plum 2 are ready to go early on, and that John Wall can see what is rapidly turning into a guaranteed starting slot at the PG.

Next Game.

devil in chapel hill
02-05-2009, 02:21 AM
I just heard Stuart Scott claim to invent the word "ridiculousness."



Don't you mean 'redonkulous'

devil in chapel hill
02-05-2009, 02:25 AM
I had a blessing happen to me tonight. I messed up and configured my DVR wrong so that I missed watching the game. Glad I missed this one - I can't imagine them playing worse than they did against Michigan in their loss against them earlier this year.

Duke needs to rethink their recruiting. We need some bigger, physical, & more aggressive guys to compete.

Lulu
02-05-2009, 02:28 AM
Actually, when I wrote after the game that this was Duke's worst loss since the first UNLV game, I meant it literally. 27 points is our worst defeat since losing by 30 to UNLV in '91.

Bizarre game, even more bizarre that a few of our guys didn't seem to care that much, but then again, the camera doesn't exactly focus on any one person the whole game so you can really judge their emotions. One of the players I'm referring to is Singler, but I suppose I can also understand the frustration and temptation to just say 'to hell with it' with his foul situation.

Anyway, I decided tonight was a good night to start converting some old VHS games into DVD format, so I can turn a few storage boxes into a couple piles of DVDs. I'm starting with the '00-'01 season...

Edouble
02-05-2009, 02:31 AM
This was no doubt one of the worst losses in a very long time. I have not given up hope for this team though. We still have several elite players and the best coach in the NCAAs.

I'm actually really glad that Kyle tapped the ball out at the end of the game. Very Laettneresque, if nothing else that he did in the game was. I'm just glad that he still cared. A game like this can light a fire in your belly, or just burn down your whole house. At least signs point to the former with Kyle.

If G's wrist is hurt we're in trouble, otherwise, I think we have enough talent on this team that Coach K can weave together a solid squad for March. The pieces were completely out of order tonight, and the man clearly needs time to tinker under the hood of the Duke car. Now that we've hit rock bottom, we'll see if the Phoenix can rise out of the ashes.

Personally, I'm not sure that a huge shake-up is in order, but how about just giving Dave the green light to shoot? He makes shots sometimes, but I think his "no offense" reputation must make him hesitant to take a jumper.

Go Devils!!!

devil in chapel hill
02-05-2009, 02:32 AM
Bizarre game, even more bizarre that a few of our guys didn't seem to care that much

Yeah, on that note, I saw a post game highlight on Sportscenter which showed Lance smacking some guys around during a TO trying to get them to rise up. The players just sat their like they were about to cry, just looking at their feet.

Houston
02-05-2009, 02:34 AM
Scheyer is a better playmaker than Nolan. He has the ability to get to the line. I think it's worth a look, because turnovers are this team's #1 problem, and lack of solid PG play is the primary reason.

Jon is not a PG. He does not finish well at the rim and he does not have the foot speed to defend. If he were to play the point, we become weaker at the 1 and the 2. It is also unfair to ask Jon to work through his slump and play a new position. Leave Jon at the 2 and wait for the for him to get hot.

Duke's biggest problem is the lack of easy baskets. Since the team plays small most of the time, we don't have a consistant inside pressence. We need to run to get easy baskets and open looks at 3s. Duke also needs to see the aggressive Nolan.

devil in chapel hill
02-05-2009, 02:35 AM
..., but how about just giving Dave the green light to shoot?

Yes - I love Dave - he's such a smart & dependable player - always seems to do the right thing (esp. on D) - It would be interesting to see him take more of a role offensively

EarlJam
02-05-2009, 03:19 AM
Possibly the worst I have seen Duke play in years but at the same time this is why I love College Basketball. Clemson and Miami both proved anything can happen anytime and anywhere.

Duke played horribly but this is not the team we know and love. I have full faith they will rebound from this loss and it will only make them stronger.

I'll be wearing my Duke polo to work tomorrow to show everyone how proud I am of this team, win or lose.

I look forward to Miami on Saturday!

GO DUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought the schedule said we played at Littlejohn, not "Behind the Woodshed."

No analysis needid for this game. We just got murdered. As K said post-game, "We had no chance to win this game."

Next play I guess. Golly darn. Will we win on a Wednesday for the rest of the year? UNC next Wednesday.

-EJ

NYC Duke Fan
02-05-2009, 04:51 AM
I watched the tape from last year at Carolina and we are doing nothing the same way. We don't run the weave, we don't spread the floor, and now we can't even hold the ball. I'd try to duplicate last year as much as possible since Scheyer isn't himself. This team needs change for a game atleast.

G Paulus
G Henderson
F Singler
F McClure
F Insert big man here

It's tough to be possitive about a game like this when I can't recall a time a team has been blown out like this and gone on to win a NC. I think Nova was in the 80's, so I'm exactly banking on something that hasn't happened for 25 years.

Please relay Coach's comments and anything else from the broadcast on here. Thanks.

I think that you have to be realistic, while this team is fun to watch, last night's game notwithstanding, the 2008-09 Duke team is a long way off from winning the national championship.I do not think that we have the personnel to win 5 straight games against top teams in the tournament. Our shortcomings have been digested ad nauseum on this board so I will not repeat them.

Lulu
02-05-2009, 04:59 AM
Yes - I love Dave - he's such a smart & dependable player - always seems to do the right thing (esp. on D) - It would be interesting to see him take more of a role offensively

I completely agree with this. I have always thought it is a liability to have a player on the floor that the other team knows isn't going to shoot the ball outside a wide open layup or a put-back. I mean, I feel like I've seen Dave make 1 mid-range shot this year. That has to make it so much easier to defend our team, whatever opposing player is assigned to Dave can just fake his way to make him pass and immediate find or anticipate where the ball is heading.

By no mean am I suggesting to bench Dave. I'm saying Let Him Shoot! (no one else is making buckets anyway...) He can't be that bad of a shot to have made it this far in his basketball career. It's not like he's Shaq.

Constantstrain 81
02-05-2009, 06:33 AM
Just a game. If it was indicative of trends, then we would have to see more evidence. We lost to two big, motivated teams on their homecourts when they had a week to prepare for us. Both settings were incredibly tough places to play. Both games allowed plenty of physical play. Both opposing teams had some players who played and shot very well - not necessarily "normal."

The Clemson game also featured the unusual aspect of virtually all of our top players playing terrible. It was a "perfect storm." However, and this is a big however, perfect storms are unusual. One game doesn't take away our body of work this year.

In addition, we don't have a dominant front line. That is not news and that is not what we are counting on either. Dominant front lines were not the problem at Clemson. Stupid turnovers and bad shooting was. Lack of composure was. Lack of heart was.

dbd4ever
02-05-2009, 07:16 AM
Does anyone know the status of Gerald's wrist?

DukieBoy
02-05-2009, 07:27 AM
I made myself wait until after i went to sleep to even get on DBR so I didn't do something stupid. Now that my emotions are in check...

That was an absolute embarrassment last night, which goes without saying. It was a mixture of our worst game in a very, very long time and Clemson's best game ever. However, this happens to good teams all the time. UConn got embarrassed by Georgetown earlier this year and looks scary good now. It's only February, which means Coach K has plenty of time to fix whatever happened last night.

Another thought was that how mnay other teams play the way Clemson plays (full court press). I can't think of any right now (it is 7:30 in the morning though). It seemed like the full-court press got as out of rhythm early on then we didn't know what to do after that.

The only thing that made tonight good is that LeBron went off for a massive triple double, meaning the Duke game wasn't the lead story on Sportscenter.

RelativeWays
02-05-2009, 07:27 AM
I had a blessing happen to me tonight. I messed up and configured my DVR wrong so that I missed watching the game. Glad I missed this one - I can't imagine them playing worse than they did against Michigan in their loss against them earlier this year.

Duke needs to rethink their recruiting. We need some bigger, physical, & more aggressive guys to compete.


Duke has tried to recruit those players, but they have opted not to go to Duke. Duke is not thought as a one and done school so NBA early entries don't have an interest. If an education isn't any sort of priority, why pick Duke over GT or Kansas St? Exposure is not much a pull anymore since almost every game is televised somewhere, particularly if there is a marquee player involved. I dunno what has to change or if anything can be changed, but its possible that Duke could become as relevant to basketball as ND is to football right now.

roywhite
02-05-2009, 07:30 AM
Does anyone know the status of Gerald's wrist?

Don't know. I also hope Kyle is healthy or getting back to being healthy; looked to me like he might have been fighting a bug; his cheeks were sunken, and he looked thinner, maybe like he had lost 10 pounds or so. Just my observation.

dbd4ever
02-05-2009, 07:41 AM
I am at a loss this morning! I thought that once I went to bed and woke up, it wouldn't be so bad. But this is scarry! Does anyone have anything to offer that is remotely possitive out of Duke this morning? I think everyone on this board could use a pick-me-up to get the day going.

roywhite
02-05-2009, 07:46 AM
I am at a loss this morning! I thought that once I went to bed and woke up, it wouldn't be so bad. But this is scarry! Does anyone have anything to offer that is remotely possitive out of Duke this morning? I think everyone on this board could use a pick-me-up to get the day going.

Mike Krzyzewski is still our coach.

RelativeWays
02-05-2009, 07:46 AM
I am at a loss this morning! I thought that once I went to bed and woke up, it wouldn't be so bad. But this is scarry! Does anyone have anything to offer that is remotely possitive out of Duke this morning? I think everyone on this board could use a pick-me-up to get the day going.

No animals were harmed in last nights beatdown? No fatalities reported? Chances that G or Kyle go pro after this year took a hit (especially Kyle) so thats a positive....I guess. This one needs to smolder for a bit and hopefully catch a fire under our team's collective butts. Same for our fans as well.

MB in MD
02-05-2009, 07:49 AM
While I am really hoping that we can take something from this and change, I'm concerned that this game exposed some flaws that aren't correctable with the personnel we have. We are still a very good team, but perhaps not an elite one.

I think the biggest problem is that our offense just isn't very good. It's good enough that we don't see it against weak teams, but good defenses expose us. The biggest hole, I think, is the lack of good ballhandling. This doesn't just mean that we are prone to turnovers against a pressing team. No one has the combination of dribbling skills and quickness to create that momentary advantage for an offense to exploit. I don't necessarily mean creating your own shot, but just getting a bit of space leading to a pass and another, and an easy basket. We do this well against weaker teams, but I think Wake, Florida State, and now Clemson have shown that our usual offensive pattern isn't effective against good defenses.

And we are not strong with the ball. Even when we get an advantage and go inside, help defense often ends up in our getting stripped. I find it enormously frustrating when G, Singler, Jon or even Nolan makes a great move to get to the rim, but ends up getting there without the ball. If you want a definition of strong with the ball, look up Trevor Booker in the dictionary. Or maybe Jeff Adrien or DeJuan Blair.

What we do well is screen, and space the floor. But even here we don't exploit this as well as we could against aggressive defenses that recover well because no one, with the possible exception of Greg is comfortable taking a quick shot (like, for example, Oglesby) before the defender is back. So having a good shooting game against, say, Maryland, who didn't even bother defending the 3, won't carry over to situations against good teams.

Our defense, of course is excellent. At the beginning of the game yesterday I didn't think it was that bad--when we got to play it--but between turnovers and blocks and all the runouts we were mostly chasing. If you wanted to argue that our transition defense could have been better, I won't quibble, but no one does that well, and it shouldn't have to be a big part of our game. As everyone has often pointed out, our defense is based on communication and intensity. I am not sure how to define the latter, but like Potter Stewart, I know it when I see it and I sure didn't see it last night. But I think part of what turned last night's loss into a rout were all the different combinations (not that I blame K for this at all), playing folks who were not accustomed to playing together and not communicating.

So I think this team will go only as far as its defense can take it, creating enough easy opportunities so that our offense doesn't have to struggle. Because we are much better defensively than in years past, I am still more optimistic than I have been. But I can imagine that it is tough night in and night out for the defense to feel that it has to make every stop, or has to generate a turnover every time down the court. If this were a football team there could be dissension if the defense grumbled about having to carry the offense all the time (like my Ravens used to be...), but fortunately here it's the same guys.

I am sure K will have some answers for this, and that we will play well again, and we will be more fun to watch than last night. I'm just afraid that we are on too thin a margin to be able win 6, or even 4 in a row in March, which earlier in the year I dared to dream. I hope I'm wrong.

Now for a good effort against Miami.

tele
02-05-2009, 07:52 AM
Don't you mean 'redonkulous'

I was thinking redorkulous.

Wander
02-05-2009, 07:57 AM
At least we're not peaking in early February. :)

The1Bluedevil
02-05-2009, 08:02 AM
Am I the only one who after a Duke loss gets phone calls, texts, emails, and random visits from people I hardly ever talk to just to rag me about the game????? Why are some people such idiots??


I saw this post and had to comment. I'm a 22 year old die hard who lives 25 minutes from Lawrence so all my friends are KU fans. I've been getting calls, texts, pranks you name it for years. Does not get to me unless someone gives me crap when they don't have a team or there team is awful. I guess it is the price one pays for being a Duke fan.

The1Bluedevil
02-05-2009, 08:05 AM
Read many posts that say Duke better turn it around for Wednesday. Last I checked a team comes to Cameron Saturday that destroyed Wake and had a 20 point lead in the 2nd half of the Duke game last year. UNC is the furthest thing from my mind.

tele
02-05-2009, 08:20 AM
I still think this team is going to be ok. I was going to say rebound but after the this last game that might not be the best choice of words. They looked pretty young again didn't they?

I'd just echo a few of the many good comments on the game and add one thought. Clemson played really tough defense and the ball pressure really seemed to throw Duke off on offense. It looked at times that the duke players were going to be literally pushed right off the court. I kept waiting for someone to push back. In some games having someone foul out, or at least get in foul trouble isn't all bad. It can be necessary and help to have each others back. For instance, if my point guard is getting ridden off the court by defenders, maybe the guy setting the ball screen at the top of the key can loosen that defense up a little, if it takes a foul or two well so be it. Goes for under the basket too, be nice to see some reaction to being repeatedly out positioned under the boards. These are little things that are sometimes needed in certain types of games. Since Clemson wasn't going to allow Duke to play their preferred style of game, then might be time to show something else that they might not enjoy seeing. If you are getting clobbered by moving down screens all night, may have to set a couple tough screens yourselves, or you just get whipped.

If the officials are allowing a good deal of contact and moving screens, you either get knocked off stride or play up to the level of contact allowed. I'm not saying I like that style of basketball, but it worked for Clemson didn't it? Great teams have to be ready to respond and adjust to how a game is getting called, especially if the shots aren't falling. I'm guessing Coach K is going to use this game to toughen up the team for what lies ahead in the next 3 months, (yes, i'm still counting april).

Saratoga2
02-05-2009, 08:23 AM
If you knew that Henderson would get 17, and our combination of Thomas, Zoubek, Plumlee and McClure would chip in with 16, you would have thought we would be in the game.

Not so with Scheyer, Smith, Singler and Paulus hitting for a combined 14, we had no offensive pop.

It wasn't just the press that gave us fits, which it did, but also Clemson's half court defense was solid and we rarely had an open shot. They were more aggressive and much quicker to the ball.

I am not a believer in players like Jon, Singler and Nolan suddenly going cold. I think it is more about the quality of defense played against us. The exceptions to that might be illness and injury.

Jon is and has been slow getting his shot off and cannot drive against very athletic shot blockers. Very few can.

Singler has had two off games in a row. Perhaps he has been ill although the defense didn't allow him to get to the basket and the rest of his game seemed sloppy.

Nolan has the quickness and shooting ability to do more. It is just not possible against a fine defensive team to drive into traffic without getting picked or blocked. I would love to see him use his quickness to create a mid range scoring game.

Paulus is a tough kid and plays with heart, but he has neither the size or speed to shoot over the defense or get past a defender. He is also kind of loose with the ball making critical mistakes in every game. I give Nolan the nod over either him or Scheyer.

arnie
02-05-2009, 08:41 AM
Duke has tried to recruit those players, but they have opted not to go to Duke. Duke is not thought as a one and done school so NBA early entries don't have an interest. If an education isn't any sort of priority, why pick Duke over GT or Kansas St? Exposure is not much a pull anymore since almost every game is televised somewhere, particularly if there is a marquee player involved. I dunno what has to change or if anything can be changed, but its possible that Duke could become as relevant to basketball as ND is to football right now.

Except that I doubt Clemson's big physical guys were that highly recruited. Our needs are strength at most positions - stronger hands and upper bodies to win against the strong defensive teams. We have good speed and skills, just don't have the bodies and haven't had them for several years.

We have a good team, but I don't see a long run in March.

roywhite
02-05-2009, 08:56 AM
Except that I doubt Clemson's big physical guys were that highly recruited. Our needs are strength at most positions - stronger hands and upper bodies to win against the strong defensive teams. We have good speed and skills, just don't have the bodies and haven't had them for several years.

We have a good team, but I don't see a long run in March.

Have to say that's my take as well. The results were exaggerated last night by a very poor outing and a very good performance by Clemson, but the basic problem IMO is that lack of muscle. No Brand or Boozer among our guys.

Just the differential in hand strength alone was painful to watch last night; our players got stripped of possession, or out-fought for so many balls.

It's a shame Olek Czyz is not further along; he has the size and strength to show better in a game last that. I'll concede that he hasn't shown that he's ready for prime time yet, but I'm hoping he'll be a factor down the line.

We'll see how things go and how we come back, but I'm afraid the problems we saw are not quickly cured.

Channing
02-05-2009, 09:01 AM
I honestly believe Duke had a chance in the game last night - things just spiraled and snow balled out of control. Clemson played a terrific game, and showed much more heart, but when things started to get away from Duke it was because they were lazy with the ball. They made lazy passes that got deflected or intercepted and lazy inbounds passes that got players trapped immediately. It looked like Duke was not prepared to handle the press - they never attacked it. When they did get the ball across half court they just pulled it out top rather than trying to take advantage of having numbers.

If you go back and watch the first half of Va Tech v. Clemson you will see a team that had a good gameplan to break the press, and executed it crisply. There is no reason Duke can't do that, they just did not come ready to play.

I am glad Im not at practice today...

whereinthehellami
02-05-2009, 09:04 AM
The 2 things that really struck me the most from last night's game was the lack of toughness our players displayed and the plethora of bad decisions from the whole team. The toughness has been a problem for awhile but the bad decisions were suprising.

Even the coaching sucked it up. The team was not prepared for the press. Coach K stopped fighting at points during the game. Your team is getting whoopped, pushed around and the leader has his hand resting on a resigned look on his face.

On the other side, I really like Clemson's style. Note how deep they are and how rested their players seem. They do this with alot less talent. But Purnell really gets his guys to understand their roles. I think Purnell has done as well with his talent of any coach I can remember. Individually Clemson doesn't have alot of great talent but boy do they play well together.

I can't imagine being the players as they approach the practice courts today. What must be running thru their minds, besides this is gonna suck!

grossbus
02-05-2009, 09:12 AM
"Even the coaching sucked it up. The team was not prepared for the press. Coach K stopped fighting at points during the game. Your team is getting whoopped, pushed around and the leader has his hand resting on a resigned look on his face."

i have to say that i had this thought, too. also, what was the time out for after we scored with 27 sec left?

oso diablo
02-05-2009, 09:16 AM
Duke is what it is. We have an outstanding perimeter squad, but our interior is highly suspect.
i know this is the popular and prevailing meme, but last night the guards went 3-22. Against Wake, 5-23. For the season, the guards are shooting barely over 40%.

SupaDave
02-05-2009, 09:26 AM
Duke has tried to recruit those players, but they have opted not to go to Duke. Duke is not thought as a one and done school so NBA early entries don't have an interest. If an education isn't any sort of priority, why pick Duke over GT or Kansas St? Exposure is not much a pull anymore since almost every game is televised somewhere, particularly if there is a marquee player involved. I dunno what has to change or if anything can be changed, but its possible that Duke could become as relevant to basketball as ND is to football right now.

There a lot of folks that will pick Georgia Tech over Duke BECAUSE of the education. Are you kidding? Biggest difference in Tech and Duke is the word 'private' and the fact that one of the schools is decidedly more technical.

Duke = Notre Dame? Sorry - but no dice. Notre Dame has had 4 coaches in the last 20 years. Duke - 1. Notre Dame had a losing season LAST year. Duke hasn't had one in years. Notre Dame hasn't been ranked in the top 10 for a few seasons. This team has been in the top 10 all year and has lost some tough games on opponents home courts. Do you get my drift or should I go on?

SupaDave
02-05-2009, 09:28 AM
i have to say that i had this thought, too. also, what was the time out for after we scored with 27 sec left?

That time-out, which was pointed out so eloquently by one of the announcers, was for the team to FEEL this sting...

moonpie23
02-05-2009, 09:28 AM
Am I the only one who after a Duke loss gets phone calls, texts, emails, and random visits from people I hardly ever talk to just to rag me about the game????? Why are some people such idiots??


i sit there and let the stupid thing buzz, ring, shake, rattle, beep and ping...


that was awful....

brumby041
02-05-2009, 09:36 AM
It looked at times that the duke players were going to be literally pushed right off the court. I kept waiting for someone to push back. In some games having someone foul out, or at least get in foul trouble isn't all bad. It can be necessary and help to have each others back. For instance, if my point guard is getting ridden off the court by defenders, maybe the guy setting the ball screen at the top of the key can loosen that defense up a little, if it takes a foul or two well so be it. Goes for under the basket too, be nice to see some reaction to being repeatedly out positioned under the boards. These are little things that are sometimes needed in certain types of games. Since Clemson wasn't going to allow Duke to play their preferred style of game, then might be time to show something else that they might not enjoy seeing. If you are getting clobbered by moving down screens all night, may have to set a couple tough screens yourselves, or you just get whipped.

If the officials are allowing a good deal of contact and moving screens, you either get knocked off stride or play up to the level of contact allowed. I'm not saying I like that style of basketball, but it worked for Clemson didn't it? Great teams have to be ready to respond and adjust to how a game is getting called, especially if the shots aren't falling. I'm guessing Coach K is going to use this game to toughen up the team for what lies ahead in the next 3 months, (yes, i'm still counting april).


Agree completely. Where is Cherokee Parks when you need him?

Kilby
02-05-2009, 09:38 AM
I also believe that Paulus being so ineffective on offense is one less threat like we had last year. He could open up the floor for other guys because his 3-pt shot was respected. Nolan doesn't have that same effect.

Last time I checked Nolan was hitting 39% from the 3 and Paulus was hitting 32%. Nolan might not be a finished pg product but he is the best option that Duke has.

CDu
02-05-2009, 09:41 AM
i know this is the popular and prevailing meme, but last night the guards went 3-22. Against Wake, 5-23. For the season, the guards are shooting barely over 40%.

Our perimeter players are not limited to the guards (Scheyer, Smith, and Paulus). We frequently play four perimeter players, which includes Singler and Henderson. Tonight, Henderson had a mediocre night shooting the ball, and Singler was clearly not himself. But they are a big part of what has made our perimeter offense so strong all season. Just because they are forwards doesn't mean that they aren't part of the perimeter equation.

I'd say that Singler and Henderson have been outstanding in ACC play for the most part. Scheyer was outstanding in December, but has slumped as a shooter in ACC play. Smith and Paulus are very capable fourth and fifth options. That's an outstanding perimeter squad, in my opinion.

SupaDave
02-05-2009, 09:49 AM
I will get slammed for this in some quarters, I'm sure, but the real issue here is with recruiting and player development. Paulus was not what any of us expected him to be and no one has been brought in who adequately fills the void.

I'm curious. What did WE expect Paulus to be?

Recruiting and Player development? A top ten team with three losses has recruiting problems? LOL! Good thing you don't root for another school - you'd really be upset...

jipops
02-05-2009, 09:50 AM
Have to say that's my take as well. The results were exaggerated last night by a very poor outing and a very good performance by Clemson, but the basic problem IMO is that lack of muscle. No Brand or Boozer among our guys.

Just the differential in hand strength alone was painful to watch last night; our players got stripped of possession, or out-fought for so many balls.

It's a shame Olek Czyz is not further along; he has the size and strength to show better in a game last that. I'll concede that he hasn't shown that he's ready for prime time yet, but I'm hoping he'll be a factor down the line.

We'll see how things go and how we come back, but I'm afraid the problems we saw are not quickly cured.

Our lack of muscle is not what got us blown out in this game though. The problem was we couldn't handle the ball well enough to get into any kind of offensive set. Credit Clemson, but steady guard play would have fought this. So while the lack of an inside game offensively is a well documented weakness, the biggest weakness may be actually be on the perimeter. Remember, this is the first year that Nolan has ever been a full time pg. Clemson just exposed this weakness.

Losing out on lose balls was just a sign of not wanting as much as the other team and this occurred frequently. The play where Booker ripped a rebound right out of Lance's hands was a microcosm of the game, which I is why I can't give Lance MofTM in the other thread.

AtlBluRew
02-05-2009, 09:53 AM
I thought Kyle's move to poke the ball away at the end when Clemson was dribbling out the clock was bush league. He should have just kept walking.



THANK YOU! I was going to start a new thread if no one mentioned that poke in this one. It was not behavior I want to see from a Duke player. Clemson players deserved to enjoy that moment.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-05-2009, 09:54 AM
Clemson played very, very well last night, that was the overwhelming factor in the outcome of this game.

I'ts getting late in the season and the level of play has stepped up, and weaknesses are becoming easier to be exposed... for every team.

As I see it, this Duke team's main strength is teamwork and defensive intensity. They have been playing above their overall talent level, which is a credit to the team and coaches. Unlike many posts I've read, I thought Duke got after Clemson defensively, just couldn't stop them. I don't think it was a lack of effort, at least for the first 3/4 of the game. They just couldn't physically match Clemson's effort. Clemson was a more physically talented team that played well...that's when the losses come.

If I could somehow get the UNC guys to get up in somebody's grill like Duke does on D, then we'd have a team in Chapel Hill.

I have always admired Duke's defensive intensity. Last night, they showed they just don't have the overall talent to make it work against a top ten team playing well and not intimidated.

This is a good Duke team, just a little shy of horses this season to pull the big wagon.

As for Ogelsby shooting those late threes to try and put a dagger in Duke's heart...that is something straight out of coach K's playbook and you guys should give them respect for having the nads to get after it. Reddick made a career out of that when Duke had big leads. When they fall, it makes a statement. A statement of strength and swagger that you want your team to make.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

geraldsneighbor
02-05-2009, 09:56 AM
"Even the coaching sucked it up. The team was not prepared for the press. Coach K stopped fighting at points during the game. Your team is getting whoopped, pushed around and the leader has his hand resting on a resigned look on his face."

i have to say that i had this thought, too. also, what was the time out for after we scored with 27 sec left?

He said he wanted to hear the fans cheering so they could remember what this felt like. I guess that's why he took a full timeout.

geraldsneighbor
02-05-2009, 09:58 AM
I think that you have to be realistic, while this team is fun to watch, last night's game notwithstanding, the 2008-09 Duke team is a long way off from winning the national championship.I do not think that we have the personnel to win 5 straight games against top teams in the tournament. Our shortcomings have been digested ad nauseum on this board so I will not repeat them.

Well, I hope G really doesn't leave then because maybe this isn't the year.

CDu
02-05-2009, 09:58 AM
Our lack of muscle is not what got us blown out in this game though. The problem was we couldn't handle the ball well enough to get into any kind of offensive set. Credit Clemson, but steady guard play would have fought this. So while the lack of an inside game offensively is a well documented weakness, the biggest weakness may be actually be on the perimeter. Remember, this is the first year that Nolan has ever been a full time pg. Clemson just exposed this weakness.

Losing out on lose balls was just a sign of not wanting as much as the other team and this occurred frequently. The play where Booker ripped a rebound right out of Lance's hands was a microcosm of the game, which I is why I can't give Lance MofTM in the other thread.

Let's not dump all the blame on Smith. Singler had five turnovers and clearly didn't handle the press well himself as the inbounds guy. Henderson made a terrible pass as well. NOBODY looked really comfortable handling the ball on the perimeter.

It'd be nice if we had a playmaking point guard like Rice, who could settle the offense down and create offense against even the toughest pressure defense. But we don't have that guy, and haven't had that guy for a while. The responsibility doesn't rest on the point guard. Our offense is designed such that the responsibility rests on ALL of our ballhandlers (including Smith, Singler, Scheyer, Henderson, and Paulus) to handle pressure defense and make plays.

Kfanarmy
02-05-2009, 10:03 AM
I totally agree. I think this team has the talent to beat anybody in the country on most given nights with discipline and a plan. With a bit stronger passing, and some patience I think the game could have been won easily. Think about this...a couple of shots in the first half, or a couple of close calls going the other way, Duke is within 10 at the half. Clemson gets far fewer opportunities to press if Duke shoots well. Frankly Duke's missed shots were half of Clemson's offense...and the Duke TOs melted confidence needed to hit shots in the 2nd half.

I am a coach K fan through and through, see the moniker, but the team last night seemed completely unprepared for the press on the offensive end...they didn't look like they knew what to expect, were rarely in the right position to be able to take advantage of the press, when they broke it, they didn't attack the basket routinely (guys were pulling the ball out in 2 on 1 situations). After the frustration of the 1st 15 minutes or so, they lacked confidence. Shooters weren't shooting when they were open so interior guys were having to try to fight through a collapsing D to get shots off. I don't think this is all on players not wanting it, I think they gave up a bit in the 2nd half out of futility, but I don't think the staff prepared them for what they would see and for what they needed to do. Compound all of that with a couple of guys who simply aren't shooting well right now; the number of players who seemingly don't have a mid-range jumper; and everyone being unable to get a feel from the officiating crew on what was going to be a charge or a block, and the game became a nightmare.
I honestly believe Duke had a chance in the game last night - ... It looked like Duke was not prepared to handle the press...

roywhite
02-05-2009, 10:08 AM
THANK YOU! I was going to start a new thread if no one mentioned that poke in this one. It was not behavior I want to see from a Duke player. Clemson players deserved to enjoy that moment.

Well, to each his own. I didn't mind it, kinda liked it; at least he showed a pulse.

I don't think Clemson players and fans got short-changed on their enjoyment.

bjornolf
02-05-2009, 10:09 AM
THANK YOU! I was going to start a new thread if no one mentioned that poke in this one. It was not behavior I want to see from a Duke player. Clemson players deserved to enjoy that moment.

I agree partially.

Yes, it was a little snarky. Yes, the Clemson players deserve to enjoy their moment, and they did, AFTER the game.

But on the other hand, there was still time on the clock, and instead of dribbling out the clock and offering his hand like somebody with class (which I've seen guys like JWill and Duhon do multiple times), the player picked up his dribble, and in a display of total lack of respect for an opponent, turned his attention from his defender to wave up the crowd. Out of respect for the moment, Kyle had stopped defending tightly. Out of lack of respect for his opponent, the Clemson player basically turned his back on him while the ball HE held was still in play. That's pretty bush league and disrespectful, too. I can understand Kyle's reaction in the heat of the moment... "hey, the game's still going on, and you have the ball. At least have the curtesy to pay attention!" It's one thing for the players that don't have the ball to do that, but I'd be pretty angry if a guy I was guarding who had the ball started doing that. It's a little like the foul at the end of the UNC/NCSU game. Kyle perceived a slight and did something about it. At least he didn't pop him in the head or anything.

SupaDave
02-05-2009, 10:19 AM
Clemson played very, very well last night, that was the overwhelming factor in the outcome of this game.

I'ts getting late in the season and the level of play has stepped up, and weaknesses are becoming easier to be exposed... for every team.

As I see it, this Duke team's main strength is teamwork and defensive intensity. They have been playing above their overall talent level, which is a credit to the team and coaches. Unlike many posts I've read, I thought Duke got after Clemson defensively, just couldn't stop them. I don't think it was a lack of effort, at least for the first 3/4 of the game. They just couldn't physically match Clemson's effort. Clemson was a more physically talented team that played well...that's when the losses come.

If I could somehow get the UNC guys to get up in somebody's grill like Duke does on D, then we'd have a team in Chapel Hill.

I have always admired Duke's defensive intensity. Last night, they showed they just don't have the overall talent to make it work against a top ten team playing well and not intimidated.

This is a good Duke team, just a little shy of horses this season to pull the big wagon.

As for Ogelsby shooting those late threes to try and put a dagger in Duke's heart...that is something straight out of coach K's playbook and you guys should give them respect for having the nads to get after it. Reddick made a career out of that when Duke had big leads. When they fall, it makes a statement. A statement of strength and swagger that you want your team to make.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Wow - but excellent. I just finished saying something similar to my friends.

jipops
02-05-2009, 10:22 AM
Let's not dump all the blame on Smith. Singler had five turnovers and clearly didn't handle the press well himself as the inbounds guy. Henderson made a terrible pass as well. NOBODY looked really comfortable handling the ball on the perimeter.

It'd be nice if we had a playmaking point guard like Rice, who could settle the offense down and create offense against even the toughest pressure defense. But we don't have that guy, and haven't had that guy for a while. The responsibility doesn't rest on the point guard. Our offense is designed such that the responsibility rests on ALL of our ballhandlers (including Smith, Singler, Scheyer, Henderson, and Paulus) to handle pressure defense and make plays.

It's not a dump of blame. I've long been an advocate of Nolan on this board. But the fact is we've got a challenge as far as handling the ball and getting in to offensive sets. Nolan has done a terrific job of defending and scoring this season, he's still learning the position though as his assist numbers sometimes indicate. Scheyer is currently the best playmaker on the team at this point.

feldspar
02-05-2009, 10:23 AM
Well, to each his own. I didn't mind it, kinda liked it; at least he showed a pulse.

Sure. When it's your guy, it's just him showing a pulse. When it's the opposition, it's bush league.

Let's call a spade a spade. It was unnecessary and showed how ill-composed Kyle was last night. If your opponents don't want to go out with class, you don't have to join them.

roywhite
02-05-2009, 10:26 AM
Sure. When it's your guy, it's just him showing a pulse. When it's the opposition, it's bush league.

Let's call a spade a spade. It was unnecessary and showed how ill-composed Kyle was last night. If your opponents don't want to go out with class, you don't have to join them.

Whatever.

Of all the things that bothered me about Duke's play last night, Kyle's poke at the end was about #629 on the list.

mgtr
02-05-2009, 10:29 AM
We watched the game last night and just went to bed at the end. This morning we watched it again on the DVR. In my view this was a match of men vs. boys (and we weren't the men). Clemson wanted the ball more, went after it, protected it, and forced us into doing silly, careless things with the ball. We were definitely not prepared for the Clemson press. On the other hand, Jay Bilas repeatedly pointed out the Coach K instruction of catch, pivot, and face the defense. I don't recall many instances of our actually doing it, so that part is on the players.
Our guards seem best at dribbling the ball on the perimeter. I don't pretend to know what the guard answer is, but I know that just doing the same thing over and over probably will not yield a different result.
Positives? A few. Lance did well (for Lance), except when he let Booker just take the ball out of his hands. But, Booker is one strong dude. Plumlee and Williams got some minutes in a real game (not eventful, but still minutes). McClure played his normal defense and no offense. I think we are a better team when McClure is in, but we need to pair Lance and Dave with some offensive players.
I certainly don't believe that our season is over, but we need to make some change in order to go forward. I look forward to the next two games with great interest.

grossbus
02-05-2009, 10:36 AM
"That time-out, which was pointed out so eloquently by one of the announcers, was for the team to FEEL this sting..."

i don't buy that at all. if they weren't feeling it before that, nothing would make them feel it.

yancem
02-05-2009, 10:40 AM
I've only scanned the 9 pages of posts (don't have time to read the whole string since I'm on vacation) so sorry if anyone else has brought up this point.

There seems to be a fair amount of discussion about Scheyer's shooting woes and whether or not he would be better off coming off the bench. I was thinking about his offensive difficulties last week and it came to mind that Scheyer was playing great early in the year while Henderson was struggling. Then as Henderson became more aggressive and picked up his game, Scheyer began to struggle. I wonder if their games just don't mesh together very well. In the past two years one started while the other came off the bench. Now they are both starting and only one of them seems to be able to play well at a time.

Anyway, just a thought I wanted to throw out there. Discuss.

Udaman
02-05-2009, 10:41 AM
Before the Wake game I suggested we could go 6-6 over our last 12 games. Now I'm thinking I might actually be happy with that.

Look, we are not a bad team. I think we are definitely in the top 15 of overall talent. But we have some glaring deficiencies - most notably our lack of a great point guard, and recently our terrible outside shooting. Clemson's full court press exposed both of those weaknesses big time. What really frustrated me wasn't just that they wanted it more, but that we seemed tentative all the time (terrible, terrible, terrible lazy passes that got easily picked off or tipped, coupled with not driving to the basket when we beat the press. You want to see a textbook case of how to do that, look at what UNC did to Clemson in Chapel Hill).

It also seems like we have taken a step back since December, something this team has done recently. We have 9 games left. If you take out at St John's, who is pretty bad...then we have 8 games left, all of them against likely NCAA teams (and certainly bubble teams). Four of them are on the road - at Boston College, at Maryland, at Va Tech and at UNC. Four of them are home - Miami, UNC, Wake and Florida State.

Honestly, 5-3 would be pretty good in my book against that schedule (6-3 with St John's thrown in). 4-4, and we are basically looking at a #4 or #5 seed. 3-5 or worse and this team is in huge, huge trouble.

MulletMan
02-05-2009, 10:52 AM
Question for all of you lamenters about how many holes we have....

Can you name a team in America that DOESN'T have any glaring holes?

mjones723
02-05-2009, 10:55 AM
Well, to each his own. I didn't mind it, kinda liked it; at least he showed a pulse.

I don't think Clemson players and fans got short-changed on their enjoyment.




Agree completely. Kyle has a little Laettner in him. Christian would have done the same thing. I loved it.

JG Nothing
02-05-2009, 11:02 AM
I can understand Kyle's reaction in the heat of the moment... "hey, the game's still going on, and you have the ball. At least have the curtesy to pay attention!" It's one thing for the players that don't have the ball to do that, but I'd be pretty angry if a guy I was guarding who had the ball started doing that. It's a little like the foul at the end of the UNC/NCSU game. Kyle perceived a slight and did something about it. At least he didn't pop him in the head or anything.

I thought Singler's action was beneath Duke basketball. I may have had some sympathy if Singler had shown the same type of emotion and displeasure in the previous 39 minutes and 55 seconds. Regardless, the Clemson player was not taunting him in the least. There was no excuse for Singler's behavior IMHO.

feldspar
02-05-2009, 11:11 AM
Whatever.

Of all the things that bothered me about Duke's play last night, Kyle's poke at the end was about #629 on the list.

Good for you. It was #1 on my list because I care about the image that Duke basketball represents.

I don't care nearly as much about scores or shooting percentages or margins of victories as I do about what Duke basketball represents, and that's class and integrity.

alteran
02-05-2009, 11:13 AM
This game puts things in perspective - these are just kids, and there's absolutely no consistency. We were horrible against UNC. Great tonight. Average against Wake. UNC, Wake and DUke can all point to their own string of games that are similarly confounding.

Clemson isn't as bad as they looked against UNC nor as good as they looked tonight.

That said, of the three top tier conference opponents, Clemson matches up - BY FAR - best against Duke. Our bigs are stronger and more athletic, our guards can hang in and our depth makes a difference. Wake's size and athleticism and UNC's size make life difficult for us. But our last two games against Duke have felt like very comfortable match-ups. It's personnel. Plain and simple.

I thought the officiating completely favored Clemson. No other way to say it. No individual call makes for a 27 point spread, but the cumulative effect is real. For what it's worth, what Duke fans feel like tonight is what Clemson fans have felt like for 35 years and more. The aggregate impact of lopsided officiating is real.

Next play. (Right?)

Klemnop

Klem,

Thanks for showing up in a classy way after this game-- I'd say it takes way more guts than coming by after a loss.

I think there's an element of truth to the matchup thing and the officiating thing, but having the team pretty much quit really hurts.

Hopefully this gives us one game to readjust and then be ready for the Heels.

ABSOLUTELY next play!

SupaDave
02-05-2009, 11:16 AM
Good for you. It was #1 on my list because I care about the image that Duke basketball represents.

I don't care nearly as much about scores or shooting percentages or margins of victories as I do about what Duke basketball represents, and that's class and integrity.

But what about excellence? They surely weren't that up until that point and we've been plenty 'chippy' over the years...

Kfanarmy
02-05-2009, 11:18 AM
I thought Kyle Singler was approaching to shake hands, normally almost always done in the closing seconds by the losing team so that they can get off the court and let the opposing team celebrate. Duke knew Clemson was probably going to storm the court, so did the Clemson players. When Kyle approached, had the Clemson player even acknowledged him, this wouldn't have happened...I understand both the Clemson player's excitement and revelry and Kyle Singler feeling stiffed. It won't go down in the annals of history.

feldspar
02-05-2009, 11:19 AM
But what about excellence? They surely weren't that up until that point and we've been plenty 'chippy' over the years...

Excellence was #2 on my list last night.

One man's "chippy" is another man's "classless." I hate that we rationalize away punk-like behavior as our guys just trying to "be tough" or "not allow ourselves to get pushed around."

Clemson beat us fair and square last night. They were, far and away, the better team. For Kyle to do something like that only makes us look like we lack excellence AND class.

If you can't score points, at least show some class.

Fish80
02-05-2009, 11:27 AM
Good for you. It was #1 on my list because I care about the image that Duke basketball represents.

I don't care nearly as much about scores or shooting percentages or margins of victories as I do about what Duke basketball represents, and that's class and integrity.


Excellence was #2 on my list last night.

One man's "chippy" is another man's "classless." I hate that we rationalize away punk-like behavior as our guys just trying to "be tough" or "not allow ourselves to get pushed around."

Clemson beat us fair and square last night. They were, far and away, the better team. For Kyle to do something like that only makes us look like we lack excellence AND class.

If you can't score points, at least show some class.

I agree that poking the ball away in that circumstance was not the way we want our players to behave. And my guess is that Coach K will have a talk with Kyle.

The attitude, effort, and behavior of our team is number one on my list. The ball poke was just one act. By itself, it is not that big of a deal and probably not a sports center highlight.

Dukerati
02-05-2009, 11:27 AM
I, like a few other posters here, waited until the morning to post because any post I made last night would have been nsfw. I'm really trying to stay away from the whole "sky is falling" thought but last night brutally crushed my NC hopes. We'll always have a chance because if we are hot from 3, we can win, but that's true about every other team, including mid-majors. What happened to Scheyer? When Terrence Oglesby is 10 times more dangerous than our "star" shooting guard, we can not win these games.

Fish80
02-05-2009, 11:37 AM
I, like a few other posters here, waited until the morning to post because any post I made last night would have been nsfw. I'm really trying to stay away from the whole "sky is falling" thought but last night brutally crushed my NC hopes. We'll always have a chance because if we are hot from 3, we can win, but that's true about every other team, including mid-majors. What happened to Scheyer? When Terrence Oglesby is 10 times more dangerous than our "star" shooting guard, we can not win these games.

The loss last night was a crushing defeat. Completely humiliating.

From here we can go into a death spiral, or we can learn from this and get much better. We will find out a lot about our team over the next couple of games.

Through the first 21 games, this team played with toughness and heart. Those qualities are still there, and K will find a way to bring them back. My guess, and my hope, is that we learn and get much better.

If we use this lesson properly, it will improve our chances in the run for a national championship.

greybeard
02-05-2009, 11:37 AM
Take a guy like Booker; we have nobody remotely close to him physically.

Yes and I don't know about that, that it ain't that simple.

Lance scored I think it was 4 points in the first 6 minutes. I saw two instances during that time frame, one coming right before the time out at something like 14:25 where Lance had Booker dead, sealed a foot in front of the rim, with his body at a 45 angle to the left and a clear passing lane from the guy with the ball to him. No help around. He didn't get the ball in either instance.

This team has been terribly ambivalent from day one about the extent to which it will play through the pivot, look for a big to make plays off a penetrating pass.

You let a guy like Booker off the hook twice when he is beaten dead to rights because he was not paying attention or was just being a little lazy or just got outsmarted and IT COSTS YOU TERRIBLY! I cannot count the ways. Let me try.

1. Maybe B picks up a foul or two; whole different ballgame.
2. You get four points inside the defense, easy, easy ones when everything is difficult, and it is uplifting, especially since it came from someone other than G or Kyle.
3. You get four points easy off of Booker and maybe he starts thinking, starts having to work hard on defense, instead of cherry picking for "big plays." He might also not be feeling so confident on the other end after he just got killed on the other end.
4. And maybe, just like every other team in the Western World, Clemson would have had to send help inside to stop easy baskets at the rim.

So, Booker gets to get beat twice because of a big hole in his game relative to the guy who he is playing against and walks away completely unscathed. When that happens, I say I "don't know" that you can say that Duke has "nobody close to [Booker] physically." See, the game, the physical game, is 90 percent mental, or to put it in my terms, is 90 percent choices. In this game, I think that Duke chose improvidently to let Booker off the hook. I think that it is possible that Lance could have eaten him up. Yeap, you read me right. Eaten him up. Hey, 8 points in the first 5 minutes would have been a heck of a start, right?

Fish80
02-05-2009, 11:44 AM
Yes and I don't know about that, that it ain't that simple.

Lance scored I think it was 4 points in the first 6 minutes. I saw two instances during that time frame, one coming right before the time out at something like 14:25 where Lance had Booker dead, sealed a foot in front of the rim, with his body at a 45 angle to the left and a clear passing lane from the guy with the ball to him. No help around. He didn't get the ball in either instance.

This team has been terribly ambivalent from day one about the extent to which it will play through the pivot, look for a big to make plays off a penetrating pass.

You let a guy like Booker off the hook twice when he is beaten dead to rights because he was not paying attention or was just being a little lazy or just got outsmarted and IT COSTS YOU TERRIBLY! I cannot count the ways. Let me try.

1. Maybe B picks up a foul or two; whole different ballgame.
2. You get four points inside the defense, easy, easy ones when everything is difficult, and it is uplifting, especially since it came from someone other than G or Kyle.
3. You get four points easy off of Booker and maybe he starts thinking, starts having to work hard on defense, instead of cherry picking for "big plays." He might also not be feeling so confident on the other end after he just got killed on the other end.
4. And maybe, just like every other team in the Western World, Clemson would have had to send help inside to stop easy baskets at the rim.

So, Booker gets to get beat twice because of a big hole in his game relative to the guy who he is playing against and walks away completely unscathed. When that happens, I say I "don't know" that you can say that Duke has "nobody close to [Booker] physically." See, the game, the physical game, is 90 percent mental, or to put it in my terms, is 90 percent choices. In this game, I think that Duke chose improvidently to let Booker off the hook. I think that it is possible that Lance could have eaten him up. Yeap, you read me right. Eaten him up. Hey, 8 points in the first 5 minutes would have been a heck of a start, right?

Good points, and much food for thought. I'll have to go back and watch those plays again, but IIRC we didn't have the ball in the right place to make the pass in to Lance. And therein lies the problem. Credit Clemson's defense. But also we need better ball movement and penetration to be in a position to make that pass. That will be a point of emphasis over the next few days.

Kedsy
02-05-2009, 12:02 PM
I, like a few other posters here, waited until the morning to post because any post I made last night would have been nsfw. I'm really trying to stay away from the whole "sky is falling" thought but last night brutally crushed my NC hopes. We'll always have a chance because if we are hot from 3, we can win, but that's true about every other team, including mid-majors. What happened to Scheyer? When Terrence Oglesby is 10 times more dangerous than our "star" shooting guard, we can not win these games.

On January 28, 1979, lowly Northwestern hammered Michigan State, in a game that wasn't as close as the 83-65 score. Michigan State's national championship hopes were not "brutally crushed," however, and they went on to win the NCAA tournament.

I'm not saying Duke will win anything this year, but I am saying their chance of winning is approximately the same as it was the day before yesterday. It's one game, admittedly a lousy one. Move on.

greybeard
02-05-2009, 12:05 PM
Good points, and much food for thought. I'll have to go back and watch those plays again, but IIRC we didn't have the ball in the right place to make the pass in to Lance. And therein lies the problem. Credit Clemson's defense. But also we need better ball movement and penetration to be in a position to make that pass. That will be a point of emphasis over the next few days.

In these two instances, you will see that the ball was in "easy access" place for the entry pass. When the second happened, I grabbed a pen and thought I'd start taking notes. Z, when he got in the first time, had very good position deep, again with his body angled; there was a clear entry pass to be made, it would probably have required a lob over the on-ball defender that would fall to Z high and slightly forward. Not a difficult play, but one that would have required Z to make a play as well. Z didn't get it. I did not see Z try to post up for the rest of the game; just worked like a mad man aka McLure trying to set back screens, clearing out, and trying for offensive rebounds.

For what it is worth (watch it boys, your elders and all that), I always found that it is easier to make catches inside that ask you to move then those that ask you to hold. Found that to be true both as a passer and receiver. Of course, the movement must make sense given the receiver's body position, where he can get to without having to adjust and whether getting to that spot creates advantage. Like I said, who knows.

jaimedun34
02-05-2009, 12:27 PM
1. Nolan Smith has been really really solid for us all year. He averages less than 2 turnovers per game. We don't have problems with turnovers from the point guard. Everyone on our team turned the ball over tonight and looked terrible breaking the press, not just Nolan.

I disagree... Only Williams, Plumlee and Pocius have a higher TO rate than Nolan.

*Edited to add that I think, going forward, Nolan needs to be the PG for this team.

Neals384
02-05-2009, 12:27 PM
Duke has been successful this year not because of personnel, but because they have outworked everybody. Well tonight, they played a team with more talent and a team that severely outworked them. What this Duke team has accomplished is remarkable. Really think about it. Henderson and Singler are stars. Scheyer is a good player, but in a terrible slump. Outside of that, our team is not talented. But to this team's credit, they have played really hard until tonight. My hope is Duke realizes tonight how hard they have to work to win every game. They are not the kind of squad that can show up and get a W. They have to want it. I think this game will be a wake up call. I can't imagine a worse performance. Better now than March.

Agree. Clem looked so much like Duke on defense that I kept thinking someone must have switched the uniforms.

I only watched the first half. In two years as a Duke fan, I have seen Duke lose, but this is the first time I have seen them outhustled and outworked. When you watch sports, you want to see a team work together to give it their all. Win or lose, it's awesome to watch when the Blue Devils play their best.

chrisheery
02-05-2009, 12:28 PM
It seems every loss is due to a combination of things. Blowouts are when those comination of things snowball to the point that nothing works at all. It seems that is what happened last night. Everyone has made great points about things that broke down, and almost all of them are right on. The problem is that Clemson identified our worst weaknesses and just worked them until it caused everything else to break down.

First the press, which got us scrambling.

That lead to:
1. our defense was hardly ever set against their offense
2. quick shots or turnovers on offense that got us even more rattled

these things lead to:
1. they scoring so easily that even when our defense was set, we looked like we were on our heels. Eventually we stopped playing hard and couldn't get defensive rebounds which is the mark of the worst possible defense.
2. Because we couldn't stop them and already had bad mojo on offense, it just spiralled downward and our offense completely fell apart.

There are some things I still don't get about how it got to that point though:

1. Why were we so unprepared for that press? Its a pretty simple press. It requires our players knowing what they are trying to get us to do and cutting precisely and in an organized fashion to break it. However, if you do that and do it well, you should embarrass a press like that. It doesn't require a star ponit guard to do it either, just good team work.

2. Why not call a few more time outs to try to rectify the press situation earlier? If the game gets out of control, you have no chance, so do it early.

One other thing, with about 6 minutes to go (I think), we got the ball, down 17, Scheyer found Singler in the corner and he hit a three. That would have put us down 14 with 6 minutes to go and some momentum. But, the ref called Singler out of bounds (which he may have been, I couldn't see it). When people say that single calls don't affect the game, I agree for the most part. However, plays like that, where momentum is involved, really do change the game. I guess I bring this up because there were many plays in this game where a call our way would have changed things for us, but all of those calls seemed to go the other way. I don't think our players should have responded like they did, ie just giving up, but you can see how that would wear on the psyche over the course of the game.

DukeDevilDeb
02-05-2009, 12:31 PM
Definitely one of the worst losses in a decade. It was amazing how unmotivated we looked.

The last time the game was this out of hand was probably against Maryland in 2002, the game in which Steve Blake stole the ball out of Jason WIlliam's hands when J-Will was looking back to K for instructions on the final play before half.

We were dominated for the whole second half of that game, although the margin was never as bad as tonight. But it had the most similar feel to tonight. We seemed to not care, nothing went our way, and Maryland was on fire. Unfortunately, the 2002 team was about ten times more talented than this one.

I really think the only solution to our most glaring weakness - turnovers - is to move Jon Scheyer to PG. Nolan Smith is not cutting it, and it his turnovers are devastating our offense. Also devastating our offense is Scheyer's worst shooting slump of his career, and it looks like he might not come out of it against good teams. Why not have him handle the ball, since we're better off without him shooting it, and better off with his ability to take care of the ball?

Move Nolan to the bench as backup PG. Otherwise, this could be a lost season.

This is actually a good suggestion, though I don't think the season ends if Coach K doesn't do it. Nolan looked terrified last night. People have used the image of the deer in the headlights, and Nolan NEVER lost that look in the game. It was as if he were an 8th grader who somehow put on a college uniform and got in over his head.

geraldsneighbor
02-05-2009, 12:33 PM
It seems every loss is due to a combination of things. Blowouts are when those comination of things snowball to the point that nothing works at all. It seems that is what happened last night. Everyone has made great points about things that broke down, and almost all of them are right on. The problem is that Clemson identified our worst weaknesses and just worked them until it caused everything else to break down.

First the press, which got us scrambling.

That lead to:
1. our defense was hardly ever set against their offense
2. quick shots or turnovers on offense that got us even more rattled

these things lead to:
1. they scoring so easily that even when our defense was set, we looked like we were on our heels. Eventually we stopped playing hard and couldn't get defensive rebounds which is the mark of the worst possible defense.
2. Because we couldn't stop them and already had bad mojo on offense, it just spiralled downward and our offense completely fell apart.

There are some things I still don't get about how it got to that point though:

1. Why were we so unprepared for that press? Its a pretty simple press. It requires our players knowing what they are trying to get us to do and cutting precisely and in an organized fashion to break it. However, if you do that and do it well, you should embarrass a press like that. It doesn't require a star ponit guard to do it either, just good team work.

2. Why not call a few more time outs to try to rectify the press situation earlier? If the game gets out of control, you have no chance, so do it early.

One other thing, with about 6 minutes to go (I think), we got the ball, down 17, Scheyer found Singler in the corner and he hit a three. That would have put us down 14 with 6 minutes to go and some momentum. But, the ref called Singler out of bounds (which he may have been, I couldn't see it). When people say that single calls don't affect the game, I agree for the most part. However, plays like that, where momentum is involved, really do change the game. I guess I bring this up because there were many plays in this game where a call our way would have changed things for us, but all of those calls seemed to go the other way. I don't think our players should have responded like they did, ie just giving up, but you can see how that would wear on the psyche over the course of the game.

Really good points...The Singler play could have been a turning point but then right after that the lead went quickly to 21.

Assuming Scheyer gets back and LT hold down the middle, how far can this current team go? I still think they could be an elite 8 team maybe FF.

Matches
02-05-2009, 12:34 PM
On January 28, 1979, lowly Northwestern hammered Michigan State, in a game that wasn't as close as the 83-65 score. Michigan State's national championship hopes were not "brutally crushed," however, and they went on to win the NCAA tournament.



And in March 1991 Duke got thumped by 20 by Carolina in the ACC Championship Game. That year turned out okay.

Not to minimize any of the fairly obvious deficiencies that were on display last night, but as always it's dangerous to take too much away from one game out of 30.

alteran
02-05-2009, 12:36 PM
Am I the only one who after a Duke loss gets phone calls, texts, emails, and random visits from people I hardly ever talk to just to rag me about the game????? Why are some people such idiots??

You are not. WTHeck is wrong with people?

I think the ones I hate the most are the crocodile tear sympathy calls.

6th Man
02-05-2009, 12:36 PM
Keep in mind this is your own interpretation. You have no facts to back up K's substitution pattern. Please provide examples of where K actually "stopped coaching". Did it ever occur to you that he may have been looking for someone to provide a spark? Remember the Kentucky game back in the fall of '01 where Duke was being completely outplayed and K took out all the starters. The bench was able to provide a bit of a spark and Duke came back. So there is a factual example for you. Do you have anything for your ill-formed interpretation?

It appeared to me that Coack K just sat there the whole second half with nothing to say. He would substitute the same two teams of five in and out so he didn't appear to be looking for a certain combination. Now he did call a TO with 27 seconds left so the team could remember the loss. One could argue that Coach K's lack of fire and intensity in the second half was refelected by his team. I saw no fight out of K or the squad.

SupaDave
02-05-2009, 12:40 PM
I disagree... Only Williams, Plumlee and Pocius have a higher TO rate than Nolan.

*Edited to add that I think, going forward, Nolan needs to be the PG for this team.

Did you include time of ball possession in your stat analysis for this?

roywhite
02-05-2009, 12:46 PM
It appeared to me that Coack K just sat there the whole second half with nothing to say. He would substitute the same two teams of five in and out so he didn't appear to be looking for a certain combination. Now he did call a TO with 27 seconds left so the team could remember the loss. One could argue that Coach K's lack of fire and intensity in the second half was refelected by his team. I saw no fight out of K or the squad.

Don't think it was lack of fire and intensity on the part of Coach K. If you heard his comments after the game, you would certainly not conclude that.

He was disgusted with the performance of the team and had tried nearly everything he could think of during the game. He repeatedly made substitutions to see if somebody could get going.

The coach and the team will have to try to fix the problems, but lack of fire and intensity on the part of Coach K is not the problem.

jipops
02-05-2009, 12:54 PM
One could argue that Coach K's lack of fire and intensity in the second half was refelected by his team.

One could argue that would be a losing argument. Was anyone on this board in the locker room at halftime?

JG Nothing
02-05-2009, 01:09 PM
The attitude, effort, and behavior of our team is number one on my list.

I agree completely. This team is still very good and the sky is not falling relatively speaking. We will still finish in the top half of the ACC and get a tourney bid with a high seed. I am more disappointed by the effort or lack thereof. The things that always stood out about K's teams were effort and pride. Last night we looked like a typically college basketball team, which is something I have never thought before.

Kedsy
02-05-2009, 01:27 PM
I agree completely. This team is still very good and the sky is not falling relatively speaking. We will still finish in the top half of the ACC and get a tourney bid with a high seed. I am more disappointed by the effort or lack thereof. The things that always stood out about K's teams were effort and pride. Last night we looked like a typically college basketball team, which is something I have never thought before.

Top half? In case nobody's noticed, we're still in first place in the conference (well, tied for first, anyway).

dukepsy1963
02-05-2009, 01:41 PM
The use of the press was a stroke of genius in my mind. It wore our guys out physically and mentally. By the time they could get down the floor they were "beat" mentally and never could "set up" things. They rushed things, made bad passes, and simply could not get into any sort of rhythm. The "Duke defense" was taken out of the equation. Couple all that with bad shot selection and poor rebounding and you have the game in a nutshell.

You can't win if you can't get the ball into play and move it down the floor.

Other teams are likely press us just like Clemson did.

SilkyJ
02-05-2009, 01:45 PM
The use of the press was a stroke of genius in my mind.

Clemson always presses. They press everyone. That's Purnell's calling card. We were too cavalier and relaxed and did not match their intensity in the first half.

I think McClure starts the next game and Scheyer goes to the bench. He needs to get out of this funk.

whereinthehellami
02-05-2009, 01:54 PM
There seems to be a fair amount of discussion about Scheyer's shooting woes and whether or not he would be better off coming off the bench. I was thinking about his offensive difficulties last week and it came to mind that Scheyer was playing great early in the year while Henderson was struggling. Then as Henderson became more aggressive and picked up his game, Scheyer began to struggle. I wonder if their games just don't mesh together very well. In the past two years one started while the other came off the bench. Now they are both starting and only one of them seems to be able to play well at a time.

Aren't they roomates?

34dukegal
02-05-2009, 02:19 PM
Aren't they roomates?

Yep, and I remember a couple of games ago there was a stretch where it seemed to me that G took it upon himself to try and get Jon the ball to shoot as often as he could, but it still didn't help.

roywhite
02-05-2009, 02:51 PM
I think McClure starts the next game and Scheyer goes to the bench. He needs to get out of this funk.

Makes sense to me. Jon did a great job coming off the bench last year, so it won't be new to him. He can watch the game develop and see what is needed before coming in.

From what I can tell, Jon is a great guy, smart and sensitive. Those are great qualities but sometimes it means one can over-think things. He somehow needs a fresh look at the game, and the ability to play freely and confidently.

dukiesbaby
02-05-2009, 02:54 PM
After last night, Does anyone here still think we can get to the final four? I mean before last night i would have told you i cant wait for the tourney to start. Now i hope it never comes. Help me out. Need someone to tell me we are still final four material!?

geraldsneighbor
02-05-2009, 02:54 PM
I also think we are back to seeing Lance be the full time big man and Zoub will play in limited spots. Although, LT has a habit of picking up 4 fouls in the middle of the second half, and if that continues Zoubek will be needed regardless.

jaimedun34
02-05-2009, 02:55 PM
Did you include time of ball possession in your stat analysis for this?

Not based on time of possession, but # of possessions. (kenpom) (http://kenpom.com/team.php?y=2009&team=Duke)

geraldsneighbor
02-05-2009, 02:56 PM
Yep, and I remember a couple of games ago there was a stretch where it seemed to me that G took it upon himself to try and get Jon the ball to shoot as often as he could, but it still didn't help.

Jon's release IMO has been off since the Xavier game. Jon used to penetrate and open the floor up for himself but as of late he has been so stationary with where he plays on offense it hasn't helped.

Oriole Way
02-05-2009, 02:57 PM
This is actually a good suggestion, though I don't think the season ends if Coach K doesn't do it. Nolan looked terrified last night. People have used the image of the deer in the headlights, and Nolan NEVER lost that look in the game. It was as if he were an 8th grader who somehow put on a college uniform and got in over his head.

I didn't mean to suggest that the season would be lost if the move wasn't made, but rather the season would be lost if our PG play doesn't significantly improve, and we don't significantly cut down on our turnovers.

Our offense is terrible (compared to where it should/could be), and it's been consistently bad almost all year against decent teams, with the exception of Xavier, Purdue, and Georgetown. Turnovers and shot selection are this team's two biggest problems, with post play an issue as well. The first two problems are more easily rectifiable, and if we can drastically improve in those areas, the post play issue can be negated for the most part.

The bottom line is that the offense needs a complete overhaul. K needs to implement a new system, or at least emphasize attacking the rim and getting to the foul line. There's too much aimless dribbling and passing around the top of the perimeter.

geraldsneighbor
02-05-2009, 03:01 PM
After last night, Does anyone here still think we can get to the final four? I mean before last night i would have told you i cant wait for the tourney to start. Now i hope it never comes. Help me out. Need someone to tell me we are still final four material!?

Yeah, I feel very similar. I felt that our best basketball was ahead of us a few weeks ago and now I just hope we can return to our form of a few weeks ago. I think a few things need to happen:
Jon/Kyle/G need to average around 15 ppg the rest of the way.
Nolan needs to attack the lane, and in turn, knock down his jump shot.
Lance needs to play like he did last night.
Get the defense back to attacking and not being so passive like I felt they were last night.

Regardless, were still 19-3, and have a chance for a 1 seed in March. Win Saturday and all is forgotten IMO. Win Wednesday and those expectations we all had will return. In the end it was just one game.

allenmurray
02-05-2009, 03:02 PM
I am glad to admit that I am "in the tank" for Coach K. I rarely question him. However, as I watched this game, my son and I were both saying, "this one is on the K". The team was simply unprepared for Clemson's press. It is the job of the coaching staff to scout and prepare the team, to make adjustments from the "standard" if a team we are facing is going to do something that we are not accustomed to. Other teams are scouted so we know what to expect and can plan accordingly. When the team seems completely unprepared I have to say, who is responsible for preparing them? I agree that the players looked as though they lacked intensity, and after the initial few minutes looked confused, but my overall feeling was that they were unprepared.

DukieInKansas
02-05-2009, 03:02 PM
After last night, Does anyone here still think we can get to the final four? I mean before last night i would have told you i cant wait for the tourney to start. Now i hope it never comes. Help me out. Need someone to tell me we are still final four material!?

Last night just proved the "on any given night" theory. I think we still go deep in the tourney.

Keep the Blue Devil faith. :)

geraldsneighbor
02-05-2009, 03:03 PM
I didn't mean to suggest that the season would be lost if the move wasn't made, but rather the season would be lost if our PG play doesn't significantly improve, and we don't significantly cut down on our turnovers.

Our offense is terrible (compared to where it should/could be), and it's been consistently bad almost all year against decent teams, with the exception of Xavier, Purdue, and Georgetown. Turnovers and shot selection are this team's two biggest problems, with post play an issue as well. The first two problems are more easily rectifiable, and if we can drastically improve in those areas, the post play issue can be negated for the most part.

The bottom line is that the offense needs a complete overhaul. K needs to implement a new system, or at least emphasize attacking the rim and getting to the foul line. There's too much aimless dribbling and passing around the top of the perimeter.

I agree. I keep saying this because I think it is so true but last year we were spreading the floor and setting ourselves up to hit big shots. Now its alot of one on one. Jon is a 90 percent FT shooter, he has to drive and atleast draw fouls until he gets out of this slump.

roywhite
02-05-2009, 03:16 PM
I am glad to admit that I am "in the tank" for Coach K. I rarely question him. However, as I watched this game, my son and I were both saying, "this one is on the K". The team was simply unprepared for Clemson's press. It is the job of the coaching staff to scout and prepare the team, to make adjustments from the "standard" if a team we are facing is going to do something that we are not accustomed to. Other teams are scouted so we know what to expect and can plan accordingly. When the team seems completely unprepared I have to say, who is responsible for preparing them? I agree that the players looked as though they lacked intensity, and after the initial few minutes looked confused, but my overall feeling was that they were unprepared.

In his comments on postgame radio with Bob Harris, Coach K didn't duck that responsibility; he repeatedly expressed how "embarrassed" he was personally for the performance of his team, and specifically against the Clemson defense.

I didn't attend any practices leading up to last night's game, but I'll bet working against Clemson's pressure was covered repeatedly. Mike Patrick and Jay Bilas talked about how Coach K had emphasized to the team how the person receiving the inbounds pass had to:
Catch the ball and come to the ball if necessary
Square up to face the defense
Quickly initiate a pass or dribble

And the commentators emphasized how the Duke team was not doing exactly the things that the Coach had talked about.

Whose fault is that we played so poorly against the press? I have an opinion but it doesn't matter. But, yes, it is the responsbility of the Coach to prepare the team, and I believe strongly that Coach K will do his absolute best to improve preparation and performance.

Diddy
02-05-2009, 03:22 PM
There are valid questions surrounding this team.

Yes, we are currenly 19-3. But, a breakdown of our losses is very troublesome.

First, the Michigan game. It was a bad loss in that it was to a mediocre team. They have really tanked the last couple of weeks, and no longer look like a NCAA tourney team. Regardless, they are a talented bunch of players who had a great game on their home court, against a near-rival whom they had already played and whom was ending a stretch of playing a lot of games. We should have won, but that UM was a classic trap game. We played a poor game from a strategic POV, and lost. We took a lot away from that game. We should have beat them, but it was a somewhat understandable loss.

The Clemson and WFU losses were completely understandable, but that is why they are so very, VERY troublesome.

WFU and Clemson are the two best teams that we have played, and we looked overmatched in both games. I would further go on to say that WFU and Clemson are the only two elite, or near-elite, teams that we have faced. Of the top 10-12 teams, regardless of actual rank, we have only played two of them, and been soundly beaten.

We shrank the WFU lead to where we had a chance to win, but that late run was as much about Duke (really only G and Kyle) as it was about WFU not dealing with the situation and putting their foots on our chest. Even K said he expected to get blown out in that scenario.

Clemson and WFU are athletic, with mobile bigs and quality guards. Those are the types of teams we have to beat in March if we want to advance. And yes, those were rough, away games vs hostile crowds.

Well, news flash, that won't change in March. If we get games in Greensboro, it might be close to a neutral arena. Otherwise, all the Non-Duke fans will cheer against Duke throughout the tourney. Duke used to excel in those situations, silencing opposing fans by really crushing our opponents souls. Not so in recent years. Opposing fans still hate us, voiciferously so, but they no longer fear us. Our games against the top teams that we have played do not bode well for a late March run.

And as for last night hurting G's pro chances, ha. He was the only near threat we had, and as long as his wrist is OK his stock won't drop. Increasingly, I feel we need to get all from him that we can, cause he won't be back next year.

SMO
02-05-2009, 03:50 PM
Other teams are likely press us just like Clemson did.

They might try, but to be successful a few things would have to happen:

1. They would need to have the right personnel to press
2. They would have to press effectively and know how to run it without tiring themselves out
3. Duke would have to handle it as poorly as they did last night

I don't see all three happening again this season.

dukepsy1963
02-05-2009, 03:54 PM
Before the season started I didn't have great hopes for us this year....good season, but nothing spectacular. But, based on what I know we are capable of doing, I think we have as good a chance as anyone else of going the distance (at least making the final eight).

There is a lot of parity among the teams across the nation this year. "Any given night" stuff...etc.

Frankly, I think we will all be surprised at who makes it to the final four this year. Some real upsets are in store! And, for what it is worth, I don't think UNC will make the final eight.

Never underestimate Duke! We've got the coach and some very smart and capable young men!

Go Duke!!! Get back on track guys!

SilkyJ
02-05-2009, 04:17 PM
One thing I think its important to remember is that due to early entries into the L, the college landscape has a lot of parity and youth in it right now. Clemson is a veteran team, and so are we. Come tournament time, those attributes could prove invaluable.

That being said, all the parity means we are just as likely to get to the FF as lots and lots of other teams. I like OU right now (and put $20 on them in vegas to win it all a couple weeks ago...they were going off at 10-1 or so)

roywhite
02-05-2009, 04:38 PM
That being said, all the parity means we are just as likely to get to the FF as lots and lots of other teams. I like OU right now (and put $20 on them in vegas to win it all a couple weeks ago...they were going off at 10-1 or so)


Ahhh...for Blake Griffin in a Duke uniform. :(

And his brother, too.

SilkyJ
02-05-2009, 04:41 PM
Ahhh...for Blake Griffin in a Duke uniform. :(

And his brother, too.

But if I could have him go anywhere but Duke, it'd be OU.

I love that Jeff is doing so well over there. Gives me (us) another big time team to root for!

Kfanarmy
02-05-2009, 04:46 PM
I have to wonder if there isn't some parallel out there between Wake's loss to Miami and the Duke loss to Clemson. I watched about half the Wake game before the Duke game started...both teams seemed a bit shot mentally...like they got so up for the Duke-Wake 2-5 game that they had a hard time getting prepared for and into the following games against Clemson and Miami...just pondering, was there that significant an emotional let down for the two teams coming off a "top 5" matchup?

brevity
02-05-2009, 07:08 PM
Glad to see some discussion of Kyle Singler's actions at the end of the game.

You could debate whether or not his choice to knock away the ball was a good thing, but his posturing a few seconds later (near the free throw stripe on our side of the court) was surprisingly thuggish. Taken as a whole, it showed a true sense of frustration and vulnerability, but was also entirely unnecessary. It didn't seem to get all that much attention, so maybe it will be addressed quietly and internally.

Final note: while I'm sure most of you weren't in the mood to enjoy it at the time, the replay of Oglesby's failed dunk and Oliver Purnell shaking his head was great television.

yancem
02-05-2009, 07:28 PM
Aren't they roomates?

What does roomates have to do with anything? I didn't say they don't like each other, I said maybe their games don't work well together.

SMO
02-05-2009, 07:29 PM
Final note: while I'm sure most of you weren't in the mood to enjoy it at the time, the replay of Oglesby's failed dunk and Oliver Purnell shaking his head was great television.

Best part of the game by far. I laughed out loud watching Purnell shake his head.

Hancock 4 Duke
02-05-2009, 08:29 PM
The fans are horrible. They were cheering everytime a foul was called against Duke, and booed for literally for 5 minutes after a good call against them. Feel sorry for me because I was at the game. People looked at me and said I need to change my jersey. They also chanted "PAULUS SUCKS, PAULUS SUCKS!" When I cheered when Kyle Dunked it, a guy in front of me said "Hey buddy, look at the scoreboard, Duke Sucks." The night before, I got a picture with K, Paulus, E-Will, and Singler, including their autographs. I hope I didn't Jinx them!:eek: