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View Full Version : UNC News...Ginyard and Graves out for season



roywhite
02-03-2009, 10:22 PM
This per stories at IC.

Ginyard to red-shirt for medical reasons; Graves suspended for remainder of season; status to be reviewed for 09-10 season.

CameronCrazy'11
02-03-2009, 10:44 PM
They're gonna miss Ginyard in the tourney.

Newton_14
02-03-2009, 11:11 PM
They mentioned this during the unx/twerps game as well. Ginyard to get the medical redshirt, and Graves dismissed from the team by ol roy for breaking team rules or conduct "unbecoming".

LOL- the mighty heels gave up 91 points to the lowly twerps.. And unx hit 15 threes and still only won by 17. Yes 108 points is impressive but giving up 91 to a team playing basically 5 wings is pretty shabby.

This shortens the unx bench quite a bit. They are now down to basically the 5 starters plus Ed Davis, and Frasor. Drew has not done much lately. Still have a potent offense no doubt, and will still win a ton of games. But winning the ACC regular season, ACC tourney, and National Title, will prove extremely difficult with that 7 man rotation.

Not nearly as scary as they were at the start of January...

jipops
02-03-2009, 11:40 PM
They still boast the best starting 5 in the country so that's still plenty scary.

My biggest question is what exactly could Graves have done? The quote on the local news was something like conduct not to the standards of a UNC basketball player. What on earth is that? What were the standards for guys like Ndiaye, Rasheed, Carter, McCinnis, etc... ?

Losing those two guys is definitely a hit though. Giving up 91 points to such a weak terp squad at home has to be very concerning. I still feel like they're the best team in the country... when they feel like it, but something odd is going on over there in Chapel Hill.

zingit
02-03-2009, 11:51 PM
Does this mean that if/when (knock-on-wood) we beat them, we'll hear the same excuses as when Lawson was out for last year's Duke victory in Chapel Hill? Even Seth Davis said something later like, "I assume UNC would have won if they'd had Lawson in that game." Lawson is (arguably) more important than Ginyard, but still, I expect to hear some whining along these lines. Sure, these injuries have hurt them, and will likely continue to hurt them at least a little, but I'm just not looking forward to hearing people make excuses for them, when you don't hear many people excusing us for when G and Nolan and McClure were injured last year (though not as badly as Ginyard, it appears).

In any case, it's a real bummer for Ginyard, and I genuinely wish him well in his recovery.

fan345678
02-04-2009, 12:21 AM
Does this mean that if/when (knock-on-wood) we beat them, we'll hear the same excuses as when Lawson was out for last year's Duke victory in Chapel Hill? Even Seth Davis said something later like, "I assume UNC would have won if they'd had Lawson in that game." Lawson is (arguably) more important than Ginyard, but still, I expect to hear some whining along these lines. Sure, these injuries have hurt them, and will likely continue to hurt them at least a little, but I'm just not looking forward to hearing people make excuses for them, when you don't hear many people excusing us for when G and Nolan and McClure were injured last year (though not as badly as Ginyard, it appears).

In any case, it's a real bummer for Ginyard, and I genuinely wish him well in his recovery.

No way. Quentin Thomas held Paulus to 18 points in that game. Lawson plays, Paulus drops at least 30.

CameronCrazy'11
02-04-2009, 12:34 AM
Paulus always plays well against Carolina. Or right after he gets smacked on the head. Channels his emotions well.

geraldsneighbor
02-04-2009, 12:38 AM
The loss of Ginyard is big. Their best perimeter defender and most people forget that he wasn't a liability on offense. He had 16 vs. Duke in Chapel Hill last year.

Bob Green
02-04-2009, 01:00 AM
Obviously, not having Marcus Ginyard available for March will hurt Carolina. He is an excellent ball player on both ends of the court. As far as the short bench is concerned, this may prove to benefit Carolina in the long run. I've always believed Coach Williams plays too many players too many minutes. Or more accurately stated, he doesn't play his best players enough. ;)

slower
02-04-2009, 08:06 AM
They still boast the best starting 5 in the country so that's still plenty scary.

After watching UConn, not so sure that the Holes starting 5 is superior.

MChambers
02-04-2009, 08:07 AM
First of all, this stinks for Ginyard.

Second, this hurts unc in that they no longer have the option of going small. Last year, they were quite effective with Ginyard and Green at forward, and used that lineup more than most people realized or remembered. They can't do it now, because they've lost their other two "3s" in Ginyard and Graves.

Of course, it will mean that Green gets plenty of playing time to showcase his talents for the NBA. ;)

roywhite
02-04-2009, 08:15 AM
First of all, this stinks for Ginyard.

Second, this hurts unc in that they no longer have the option of going small. Last year, they were quite effective with Ginyard and Green at forward, and used that lineup more than most people realized or remembered. They can't do it now, because they've lost their other two "3s" in Ginyard and Graves.

Of course, it will mean that Green gets plenty of playing time to showcase his talents for the NBA. ;)

Agree about Ginyard; he is their best defender. We've seen our share of lingering foot-related problems in Durham, so wish him well for a full recovery. He could be a key player for them next year.

Green is a senior anyway, though I agree he is looking more like a good NBA prospect. Will Lawson and/or Ellington forego their last season to go pro?

Whatever develops, UNC will have plenty of talent next year; they nearly always do in the Roy Williams era. Lots of basketball to be played this year and the Heels remain a national contender.

SMO
02-04-2009, 09:19 AM
Does this mean that if/when (knock-on-wood) we beat them, we'll hear the same excuses as when Lawson was out for last year's Duke victory in Chapel Hill? Even Seth Davis said something later like, "I assume UNC would have won if they'd had Lawson in that game." Lawson is (arguably) more important than Ginyard, but still, I expect to hear some whining along these lines.

Just remember that Lawson is, of course, the best PG in the country. Even though he gets lit up regularly in conference.

Wander
02-04-2009, 09:20 AM
Or more accurately stated, he doesn't play his best players enough. ;)

I don't know if you're kidding or not but I completely agree. I've mentioned a few times how awful I think Graves is and that I couldn't imagine why he ever got significant minutes. I doubt his loss will have much of an effect.

dukelifer
02-04-2009, 09:46 AM
They still boast the best starting 5 in the country so that's still plenty scary.

My biggest question is what exactly could Graves have done? The quote on the local news was something like conduct not to the standards of a UNC basketball player. What on earth is that? What were the standards for guys like Ndiaye, Rasheed, Carter, McCinnis, etc... ?

Losing those two guys is definitely a hit though. Giving up 91 points to such a weak terp squad at home has to be very concerning. I still feel like they're the best team in the country... when they feel like it, but something odd is going on over there in Chapel Hill.

They do have a strong starting 5- but I agree that things are not happy over there. Thompson is really not playing well of late- perhaps because of Hansbrough taking up opportunities and their bench is not giving great production. They also do not seem to be playing with a lot of enjoyment- but then again, the only thing that matters to this team is playing well in March. So perhaps they are holding back. Roy also seems a bit more chippy of late and having a hard time motivating this team. We will see if this tension breaks them or carries them. I expect it will only get worse as it gets closer to the end of the season. One thing we know- is that Roy is not very likely to sit the entire starting 5 now when he gets really mad at them. as I am not sure he has enough players left to play.

CDu
02-04-2009, 10:20 AM
I don't think this affects much for UNC based to what they've been doing all year. They've been playing without Ginyard for the whole season anyway. Graves was playing limited minutes to begin with - he was averaging just 6 minutes per game over the last four games he played, and just 8 minutes per game in ACC play overall. This just means that Fraser/Drew/Copeland will see 5-10 more minutes per game.

What it does though is eliminate the potential for UNC to get deeper and better defensively. Had Ginyard been able to return and Graves remained on the team, UNC could have gone 8-deep with quality regulars and had Drew and Graves as toss-ins for depth. Now, they have to continue to use Drew as a rotation guy, and they won't have any depth advantage at all.

devildownunder
02-04-2009, 10:53 AM
I don't think this affects much for UNC based to what they've been doing all year. They've been playing without Ginyard for the whole season anyway. Graves was playing limited minutes to begin with - he was averaging just 6 minutes per game over the last four games he played, and just 8 minutes per game in ACC play overall. This just means that Fraser/Drew/Copeland will see 5-10 more minutes per game.

What it does though is eliminate the potential for UNC to get deeper and better defensively. Had Ginyard been able to return and Graves remained on the team, UNC could have gone 8-deep with quality regulars and had Drew and Graves as toss-ins for depth. Now, they have to continue to use Drew as a rotation guy, and they won't have any depth advantage at all.

Awwwwwwwww.

pamtar
02-04-2009, 10:53 AM
I think Roy deserves some credit for cutting Graves and shortening his bench in the name of integrity.

If Graves' offense was of the NCAA rule breaking nature and Roy's move was preemptive, than that's another story altogether.

CDu
02-04-2009, 11:01 AM
Awwwwwwwww.

Yeah, I'm not crying a tear for UNC or anything.

Diddy
02-04-2009, 11:13 AM
It definitely hurts UNC this year. Ginyard is a good player, and a solid citizen.

However, there is a single, solitary, silver lining for UNC in this mess. NEXT YEAR, UNC would have been very, very weak at the Wing forward position. Their guard rotation would have been young, but very talented with the two frosh probably starting. Up front they will have Thompson, Davis, a fab frosh named Henson, and the Wear twin playing solid backup. What they didn't have was a 6-6 ish, do-it-all WF.

I am not saying that Ginyard makes next year's UNC a world beater or anything, but he will help that team tremendously.

Also, I know they are our (deservedly) hated rivals, but you really have to feel for the kid. To miss a Sr. year on a team as talented as the Heels would have to hurt. Even if UNC wins the title, which isn't out of the question, Ginyard's ring would not really be earned. And next year they won't win the title. Too young.

I feel bad for Ginyard. What happened to him is unfortunate.

grit74
02-04-2009, 11:15 AM
I think Roy deserves some credit for cutting Graves and shortening his bench in the name of integrity.

If Graves' offense was of the NCAA rule breaking nature and Roy's move was preemptive, than that's another story altogether.
Roy will deserve integrity credits when he punishes a starter.

Biscuit
02-04-2009, 11:18 AM
No way. Quentin Thomas held Paulus to 18 points in that game. Lawson plays, Paulus drops at least 30.

I realize this is somewhat tongue-in-cheek, and I also realize that this is a Duke board and that you all are nice enough to let me post here on occasion. But before everyone starts slamming Lawson's defense and his possible impact on that game and the coming one, I'd keep in mind that Duke has never beaten a team with Ty Lawson. In those three games, Paulus has had two subpar efforts and one decent showing.

That said, those of us who wear a lighter shade of blue are very, very concerned about losing Ginyard, especially on the defensive end. There was a sense that his return would fix the team's huge, obvious Achilles Heel.

Graves, not so much.

CDu
02-04-2009, 11:21 AM
Roy will deserve integrity credits when he punishes a starter.

Sort of agree. If Graves did something really bad, it's good that Williams disciplined him appropriately. However, it's not like he did what Al Skinner did in banishing Sean Williams (their starting center and a premier post presence) from the BC squad. Graves was a spot-minutes player at best for Carolina.

It's not like losing Graves puts a big dent into the plans for the Heels. That's not to say Williams doesn't have integrity (I don't know the man, so I won't speculate), but he probably doesn't warrant glowing praise based solely on this decision.

CDu
02-04-2009, 11:27 AM
I realize this is somewhat tongue-in-cheek, and I also realize that this is a Duke board and that you all are nice enough to let me post here on occasion. But before everyone starts slamming Lawson's defense and his possible impact on that game and the coming one, I'd keep in mind that Duke has never beaten a team with Ty Lawson. In those three games, Paulus has had two subpar efforts and one decent showing.

That said, those of us who wear a lighter shade of blue are very, very concerned about losing Ginyard, especially on the defensive end. There was a sense that his return would fix the team's huge, obvious Achilles Heel.

Graves, not so much.

Well said on both accounts. For some reason, people like to dismiss the contention that our win in the Dean Dome last year is less impressive because Lawson was out. That's just silly - UNC not having Lawson clearly helped us win that game. He definitely doesn't play the greatest defense, but he certainly makes an impact on their offense and transition game.

And while the losses don't make UNC any less dangerous than they have been so far this year, they do put a limit the ceiling UNC has moving forward this season.

rsvman
02-04-2009, 11:39 AM
Well said on both accounts. For some reason, people like to dismiss the contention that our win in the Dean Dome last year is less impressive because Lawson was out. ....

IMO, this is missing the point. I don't think people are "dismissing the contention" so much as getting sick of hearing the "Duke only won the game because" argument. They have no way of knowing that.

To be honest, many fans wish for them to be at full strength; we would like to beat them when they have, as it were, no excuses. We'd like to take their best shot and still win.

Some of the posters are just anticipating the same tired thing again this year, in the event that we manage a victory, which I certainly hope we do. On the flip side, we never hear the media say anything about our injuries or illnesses when a team manages to beat us. It's the double-standard that grates.

Biscuit
02-04-2009, 11:41 AM
Well said on both accounts. For some reason, people like to dismiss the contention that our win in the Dean Dome last year is less impressive because Lawson was out. That's just silly - UNC not having Lawson clearly helped us win that game. He definitely doesn't play the greatest defense, but he certainly makes an impact on their offense and transition game.

And while the losses don't make UNC any less dangerous than they have been so far this year, they do put a limit the ceiling UNC has moving forward this season.

I appreciate the admission.

For my part, although l think Lawson was the key to the UNC victories the last two years, I personally think the emergence of Nolan Smith as a starter and a guy who plays 25+ minutes changes the equation substantially. I think you're gonna see a different game on Wednesday. I also think it's gonna be a lot more fun to watch. There hasn't been a game in which both teams broke 80 since 2006, but I wouldn't be shocked if both teams broke 90 in this one.

3rd Dukie
02-04-2009, 12:38 PM
Roy will deserve integrity credits when he punishes a starter.

Didn't Graves get thrown out of a game this past weekend? I can't recall the details but it seems that he went after somebody right at the end of the game, and Roy seemed to be fine with his getting tossed.
Maybe I'm making this up, but I don't think so.

MChambers
02-04-2009, 12:40 PM
Didn't Graves get thrown out of a game this past weekend? I can't recall the details but it seems that he went after somebody right at the end of the game, and Roy seemed to be fine with his getting tossed.
Maybe I'm making this up, but I don't think so.

you are thinking of Copeland, after McCauley fouled him hard.

roywhite
02-04-2009, 12:41 PM
I appreciate the admission.

For my part, although l think Lawson was the key to the UNC victories the last two years, I personally think the emergence of Nolan Smith as a starter and a guy who plays 25+ minutes changes the equation substantially. I think you're gonna see a different game on Wednesday. I also think it's gonna be a lot more fun to watch. There hasn't been a game in which both teams broke 80 since 2006, but I wouldn't be shocked if both teams broke 90 in this one.

Game in the 90's??

Maybe so, but you're implying that UNC is going to shred Duke's defense, which has been outstanding this year. I don't see it.

Biscuit
02-04-2009, 12:48 PM
IMO, this is missing the point. I don't think people are "dismissing the contention" so much as getting sick of hearing the "Duke only won the game because" argument. They have no way of knowing that.

To be honest, many fans wish for them to be at full strength; we would like to beat them when they have, as it were, no excuses. We'd like to take their best shot and still win.

Some of the posters are just anticipating the same tired thing again this year, in the event that we manage a victory, which I certainly hope we do. On the flip side, we never hear the media say anything about our injuries or illnesses when a team manages to beat us. It's the double-standard that grates.

I see your point, but I don't think there's really a double standard. Lawson went down in the game before the first UNC-Duke game last year, and a UNC team that only lost three games all season subsequently had to go to overtime to beat Florida State. The Duke-UNC game was a mere four days after that debacle. There's no doubt it was the dominant story line, as it should have been. You can be sure that if Henderson or Singler (or Hansbrough or Lawson for that matter) goes down this weekend, their absence would be the leading storyline of next Wednesday's game, as it should be. Knock on wood.

However, the Ginyard injury and Graves thing are very different. They're not really key parts of the 08-09 team. I seriously doubt you'll hear them used as a lame excuse if Duke wins. I promise you won't hear it from me.

3rd Dukie
02-04-2009, 12:51 PM
you are thinking of Copeland, after McCauley fouled him hard.

Thanks.

Brain cramps again. It definitely involved McCauley.

Biscuit
02-04-2009, 12:52 PM
Game in the 90's??

Maybe so, but you're implying that UNC is going to shred Duke's defense, which has been outstanding this year. I don't see it.

I said I wouldn't be shocked. I don't think it's likely, but it wouldn't be a jaw-dropping result. Point being, this should be a fun one. Duke's defense is outstanding and intimidating, but they also don't play a boring, Big Ten-style halfcourt lockdown game. And this year's Heels are bordering on chaos.

Add in the teams' current rankings, the dearth of available #1 seeds in the tourney, the last chance for the Crazies to take their best shots at Hansbrough, and his attempt to go undefeated for his career in Durham, and I think it will be the most entertaining matchup in years. I'm looking forward to it more than I have in a long time.

Diddy
02-04-2009, 12:53 PM
UNC may be feeling a numbers crunch next year. There was a lot, and I mean a LOT of speculation about UNC's scholly numbers last year.

Assuming everyone goes pro who is supposed to, UNC was at the limit. Well, now you are adding another scholarship player in Ginyard. On top of that, UNC now looks VERY shaky at the PG slot next year. Lawson will leave. No doubt. But Drew (as I predicted) is not now, nor will ever be, a viable solution at PG. He is not a high quality starter on a high major team. UNC theoretically had taken care of that with a PG from this year's class. Now, that too is in question because he looks more like a Combo guard (really a WG) than a PG next year.

Either Roy is clearing up a scholly for a late run at Wall (pure speculation on my part) or is freeing up a scholly for Ginyard next year.

Graves was excised for scholly purposes. He will have no trouble getting a full ride at another, quality program. He simply was not a UNC level player, and he has already been recruited over. I am sure there were some transgressions to justify his dismissal, but I would be amazed if any college team could find more than 2 players on its roster who are completely spotless when it comes to rules violations.

gumbomoop
02-04-2009, 01:32 PM
Obviously, not having Marcus Ginyard available for March will hurt Carolina. He is an excellent ball player on both ends of the court. As far as the short bench is concerned, this may prove to benefit Carolina in the long run. I've always believed Coach Williams plays too many players too many minutes. Or more accurately stated, he doesn't play his best players enough. ;)

Agree. UNC's 8-deep is excellent. Davis is their leading rebounder, at about 10 fewer min/gm than Hans. That Davis will get a few more min/gm is a big + for UNC. Frasor is no Ginyard, but he's solid defensively and decent offensively. UNC needs Drew to play a mere 5-6 min/gm behind Lawson, and I think he does just fine (1.5/1 asst/to).

No idea whether Zeller returns, but even without him, UNC is still a favorite for Final 4. Frankly, the real issue with them may be the chemistry question. If that's ok, they're fine. Hans is Hans, Green is all-ACC 2d team, Ellington is on fire, and Lawson now seems to shoot well, along with speed and assists.

They're a load for anyone. Not unbeatable, but they haven't fallen far.

pfrduke
02-04-2009, 01:54 PM
Agree. UNC's 8-deep is excellent. Davis is their leading rebounder, at about 10 fewer min/gm than Hans. That Davis will get a few more min/gm is a big + for UNC. Frasor is no Ginyard, but he's solid defensively and decent offensively. UNC needs Drew to play a mere 5-6 min/gm behind Lawson, and I think he does just fine (1.5/1 asst/to).

No idea whether Zeller returns, but even without him, UNC is still a favorite for Final 4. Frankly, the real issue with them may be the chemistry question. If that's ok, they're fine. Hans is Hans, Green is all-ACC 2d team, Ellington is on fire, and Lawson now seems to shoot well, along with speed and assists.

They're a load for anyone. Not unbeatable, but they haven't fallen far.

Zeller's already taken a medical hardship. He's done for the year.

Matches
02-04-2009, 01:59 PM
Zeller's already taken a medical hardship. He's done for the year.

They've been backing off that the last few days. Supposedly Zeller is being re-evaluated.

pfrduke
02-04-2009, 02:09 PM
They've been backing off that the last few days. Supposedly Zeller is being re-evaluated.

You can rescind a medical hardship?

davekay1971
02-04-2009, 02:15 PM
[QUOTE=pamtar;252830]I think Roy deserves some credit for cutting Graves and shortening his bench in the name of integrity. [QUOTE]

When a coach lets a star (McCants) run rampant and then cuts a scrub, I don't find myself overwhelmed with respect for the coach. Just another example of a coach being firm with a player who's expendable.

roywhite
02-04-2009, 02:25 PM
You can rescind a medical hardship?

I'm thinking that the medical hardship waiver paperwork gets done at the end of the season.

http://scarletknights.com/sportsmed/p-services/waivers.htm

The link describes procedures at Rutgers; paperwork goes through the University, on to the Conference office, and then to the NCAA. Waiver is submitted at the end of the season. An attempt to come back in the 2nd half of the season would invalidate the waiver attempt.

From a common-sense standpoint, wouldn't it make sense for the school not to request the waiver until the end of the season? They may believe the injury is season-ending, or reach a decision about holding out the athlete, but would want some flexibility in case recovery is quick and the player is needed.

If someone has a more definite answer, please advise.

Duke3517
02-04-2009, 02:35 PM
UNC just went from heavy favorite to favorite to win it all. They really have to rely on scoring to win the national championship. Without Ginyard UNC will have a really difficult time containing Duke's guards.

zingit
02-04-2009, 02:41 PM
I see your point, but I don't think there's really a double standard. Lawson went down in the game before the first UNC-Duke game last year, and a UNC team that only lost three games all season subsequently had to go to overtime to beat Florida State. The Duke-UNC game was a mere four days after that debacle. There's no doubt it was the dominant story line, as it should have been. You can be sure that if Henderson or Singler (or Hansbrough or Lawson for that matter) goes down this weekend, their absence would be the leading storyline of next Wednesday's game, as it should be. Knock on wood.

However, the Ginyard injury and Graves thing are very different. They're not really key parts of the 08-09 team. I seriously doubt you'll hear them used as a lame excuse if Duke wins. I promise you won't hear it from me.

Yeah, but they also lost to Maryland (and Kansas, for that matter) last year with Lawson in the lineup. I'm not saying Lawson's presence doesn't matter, I'm just saying it's not necessarily decisive. To say that Duke wouldn't have won that game if Lawson had been in it, as I've heard some people say (though I tip my hat to you if you are not claiming this), is oversimplifying things and not giving enough credit to Duke. And it ignores the multitude of injuries we had on our team. Maybe none of them alone were as serious as losing Lawson, but I think if you add up Zoubek, McClure, Nolan, and G's injuries by the time we played UNC in Cameron, perhaps they are comparable losses. (Though obviously, we lost that game fair and square; I'd be pretty hypocritical if I were trying to make excuses for our own team.)

I apologize if I've dragged this discussion a little off-topic. It's just been a pet peeve of mine to hear UNC fans and even neutral observers dismiss our win at the Dean Dome over and over again.

But anyway, I'm glad if UNC fans are like you and don't blame any troubles their team may run into on their loss of Ginyard and Graves. UNC fans are right to be upset about it, but I don't think this loss is decisive either, and I imagine UNC will still be as tough to beat as ever.

arnie
02-04-2009, 02:45 PM
UNC may be feeling a numbers crunch next year. There was a lot, and I mean a LOT of speculation about UNC's scholly numbers last year.

Assuming everyone goes pro who is supposed to, UNC was at the limit. Well, now you are adding another scholarship player in Ginyard. On top of that, UNC now looks VERY shaky at the PG slot next year. Lawson will leave. No doubt. But Drew (as I predicted) is not now, nor will ever be, a viable solution at PG. He is not a high quality starter on a high major team. UNC theoretically had taken care of that with a PG from this year's class. Now, that too is in question because he looks more like a Combo guard (really a WG) than a PG next year.

Either Roy is clearing up a scholly for a late run at Wall (pure speculation on my part) or is freeing up a scholly for Ginyard next year.

Graves was excised for scholly purposes. He will have no trouble getting a full ride at another, quality program. He simply was not a UNC level player, and he has already been recruited over. I am sure there were some transgressions to justify his dismissal, but I would be amazed if any college team could find more than 2 players on its roster who are completely spotless when it comes to rules violations.

Excellent point on Graves. Roy saw he needed a another scholarship next year; and if he releases Graves at the end of the year, it "looks like" he needs another scholarship. By finishing him off now, the scholarly sportswriters in this area will never correlate the +- that will occur in next years numbers.

Ole Roy is smarter than I realized.

Bob Green
02-04-2009, 02:49 PM
I don't know if you're kidding or not but I completely agree.

I'm not kidding. Coach Williams over utilizes his bench, IMO. All the injuries Carolina has had this season will counter Roy Williams chief weakness.

Matches
02-04-2009, 02:55 PM
I'm thinking that the medical hardship waiver paperwork gets done at the end of the season.

http://scarletknights.com/sportsmed/p-services/waivers.htm

The link describes procedures at Rutgers; paperwork goes through the University, on to the Conference office, and then to the NCAA. Waiver is submitted at the end of the season. An attempt to come back in the 2nd half of the season would invalidate the waiver attempt.

From a common-sense standpoint, wouldn't it make sense for the school not to request the waiver until the end of the season? They may believe the injury is season-ending, or reach a decision about holding out the athlete, but would want some flexibility in case recovery is quick and the player is needed.

If someone has a more definite answer, please advise.

I've always assumed it was done at the end of the season. If one of the determinative factors is that the players plays in less than whatever percentage of the team's games, there's no way to do that math until the season concludes.

ClosetHurleyFan
02-04-2009, 03:18 PM
[QUOTE=pamtar;252830]I think Roy deserves some credit for cutting Graves and shortening his bench in the name of integrity. [QUOTE]

When a coach lets a star (McCants) run rampant and then cuts a scrub, I don't find myself overwhelmed with respect for the coach. Just another example of a coach being firm with a player who's expendable.

Considering that we dont yet what Graves did to get dismissed, I think your point is a bit premature. If Graves did what is rumored (flunked a drug test or had a honor code violation) there is a very good chance that he something that crossed a threshold the sort that McCant's never crossed with his actions. Yes McCants was obnoxious and whiny at times and said amazing stuff, but I dont recall that he ever did anything of the sort that Graves is rumored to have done. And if you dont think that a kid's value to the team should be considered when deciding whether or not cut him slack on a serious violation, I think you are kidding yourself. K would do the same thing and I think he should.

Indoor66
02-04-2009, 03:22 PM
Are some making LAX case type assumptions here? We should be better than that. Let's see how this plays out before indicting anyone!

Biscuit
02-04-2009, 03:25 PM
Yeah, but they also lost to Maryland (and Kansas, for that matter) last year with Lawson in the lineup. I'm not saying Lawson's presence doesn't matter, I'm just saying it's not necessarily decisive. To say that Duke wouldn't have won that game if Lawson had been in it, as I've heard some people say (though I tip my hat to you if you are not claiming this), is oversimplifying things and not giving enough credit to Duke. And it ignores the multitude of injuries we had on our team. Maybe none of them alone were as serious as losing Lawson, but I think if you add up Zoubek, McClure, Nolan, and G's injuries by the time we played UNC in Cameron, perhaps they are comparable losses. (Though obviously, we lost that game fair and square; I'd be pretty hypocritical if I were trying to make excuses for our own team.)

I apologize if I've dragged this discussion a little off-topic. It's just been a pet peeve of mine to hear UNC fans and even neutral observers dismiss our win at the Dean Dome over and over again.

But anyway, I'm glad if UNC fans are like you and don't blame any troubles their team may run into on their loss of Ginyard and Graves. UNC fans are right to be upset about it, but I don't think this loss is decisive either, and I imagine UNC will still be as tough to beat as ever.

I would never claim that any one player definitely would have made a difference between winning and losing. There's just no way to know how things play out in an alternate universe. But Lawson would have made a UNC victory a far more likely outcome. Put it this way: I have been a UNC student or alum for over 15 years, and that was the least upsetting loss to Duke I can remember. I think everyone on both sides of the rivalry knew that there were extenuating circumstances. Honestly, I was more upset when he went down than I was when we lost the following game. The prospect of a Lawson injury of unknown duration totally ruined my Super Bowl Sunday.

On to more pressing matters. Nobody else has the feeling that next week's game will be the best one in years, due to the stakes and both team's pace of play, skill level and star power?

Oriole Way
02-04-2009, 03:27 PM
I'm not kidding. Coach Williams over utilizes his bench, IMO. All the injuries Carolina has had this season will counter Roy Williams chief weakness.

I think Roy William's chief weakness is failing to coach good defense and recruiting great defensive players. One reason losing Graves hurts so much is that he was one of the few Heels who plays excellent defense.

I also think Roy leaves a little to be desired as an X's and O's coach when it comes to making in-game adjustments, but that's another topic.

But I understand your point, and it's a valid one.

CameronCrazy'11
02-04-2009, 03:44 PM
I kinda assumed he went to the bench often because his teams run so much. Maybe the thinning depth will force them to slow down a bit.

ArnieMc
02-04-2009, 03:49 PM
Either Roy is clearing up a scholly for a late run at Wall (pure speculation on my part) or is freeing up a scholly for Ginyard next year.

Graves was excised for scholly purposes.I tend to cut Roy a little more slack on the integrity issue. After all, he did yank JamesOn Curry's scholly.

Cell-R
02-04-2009, 04:01 PM
So... You get 12 scholarships right?

Roy has 4 scholarship seniors if I am not mistaken...
And 5 recruits next year.

If Ginyard doesn't leave, that will make 3 scholarships available.

With Graves leaving, that puts it back up to 4.
Who is the unlucky 5th man?

Matches
02-04-2009, 04:03 PM
13 schollys.

And presumably Lawson will depart.

Bob Green
02-04-2009, 04:04 PM
So... You get 12 scholarships right?



13 is the correct number.

flyingdutchdevil
02-04-2009, 04:29 PM
Ginyard was supposed to be a key ingredient for the Holes' championship run. A ton of writers, including Davis and Bilas, have said great things about GInyard. He isn't the strongest offensively, but he is a) their best overall defender, b) their glue guy and c) Mr. Versatility. Their are rumors (and I am inclined to believe them) that their is a lot of infighting within the UNC team. A player like Ginyard would easily neutralize this. Also, he does the little things that make a team win. He is like a poor man's Battier.

I have no sympathy for UNC, but I do feel bad for Ginyard. He seems like a good guy and teammate. Also, think about this. He started over Green. That means that Williams believes that Ginyard contributes more to the starting five than a player like Green. While the starting five may not have the most talent collectively, it does imply the team that functions best on the floor.

Cell-R
02-04-2009, 04:56 PM
13 schollys.

And presumably Lawson will depart.

Thanks for the correction! :)

SMO
02-04-2009, 06:26 PM
I have no sympathy for UNC, but I do feel bad for Ginyard. He seems like a good guy and teammate. Also, think about this. He started over Green. That means that Williams believes that Ginyard contributes more to the starting five than a player like Green. While the starting five may not have the most talent collectively, it does imply the team that functions best on the floor.

I wouldn't feel too bad for him. As long as he heals ups 100% he'll probably see more PT next year and may not have to deal with infighting if that is really going on. It would probably be worse to miss almost an entire season. At least this way he gets a full season back.

BD80
02-04-2009, 07:39 PM
Ginyard was supposed to be a key ingredient for the Holes' championship run. A ton of writers, including Davis and Bilas, have said great things about GInyard. He isn't the strongest offensively, but he is a) their best overall defender, b) their glue guy and c) Mr. Versatility. ... Also, he does the little things that make a team win. He is like a poor man's Battier. ...

Imagine if we were to lose McClure. The numbers wouldn't reveal his importance to the team.