HBO: Battle For Tobacco Road

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

HBO is going to be airing a one hour show, "The Battle For Tobacco Road," on the Duke-UNC rivalry scheduled for 2/23 at 9PM.

This is after the first Carolina game but a week before the second. Odd timing.

[jv001]

HBO is going to be airing a one hour show, "The Battle For Tobacco Road," on the Duke-UNC rivalry scheduled for 2/23 at 9PM.

This is after the first Carolina game but a week before the second. Odd timing.

The reason for waiting for the 2nd game is they want to see unc beat us after suffering an embarassing defeat in CIS. Go Duke!

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

HBO is going to be airing a one hour show, "The Battle For Tobacco Road," on the Duke-UNC rivalry scheduled for 2/23 at 9PM.

This is after the first Carolina game but a week before the second. Odd timing.

Not strange timing at all. Provides something for people to view if they're not participating in Mardi Gras festivities.

[brevity]

As I mentioned before (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=161433&postcount=7), they'd probably have Triangle screenings provided by the cable company.

Well, here you go: http://www.yourtwc.com/hboduke/

[riverside6]

Not sure how to embed a Youtube clip here, but the the trailer for the HBO special has been released. The special will air for the first time February 23rd.

Here's the link to view the trailer (http://www.scacchoops.com/tt_NewsBreaker_External.asp?NB=1626).

I can't wait.

[Lord Ash]

Awesome. Thanks for sharing that find:)

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

I will definitely be adding HBO for this.

[zingit]

I'm pretty excited too. My only beef is their line, "You've got the locals vs. the outsiders, you've got the rich vs. the middle class . . ." That has to be a UNC fan making that gross overgeneralization. Not only is it somewhat inaccurate, it's hypocritical. Has any UNC fan turned their nose up at Hansbrough for being from Missouri?

[Sir Stealth]

I agree - hate that line.

[Ignatius07]

Not to mention that North Carolina is the most represented state out of all undergraduates at Duke.

[brevity]

Hey, at least they put Duke first in the title.

[gotham devil]

I'm pretty excited too. My only beef is their line, "You've got the locals vs. the outsiders, you've got the rich vs. the middle class . . ." That has to be a UNC fan making that gross overgeneralization. Not only is it somewhat inaccurate, it's hypocritical. Has any UNC fan turned their nose up at Hansbrough for being from Missouri?
Or Tywon Lawson (Maryland), Wayne Ellington (Philadelphia), Danny Green (Long Island), Ed Davis (Virginia), Tyler Zeller (Indiana, Larry Drew (California)

They've had to rely on out-of-state talent as much as any program outside of, well, Kansas and Kentucky. From Frank McGuire's original pipeline to Dexter Strickland, they've never objected to receiving basketball players from this area either.

There was also a slight pause when the person said, "rich versus middle class"- as though the person didn't want to fall into the trap of self-describing the legion of UNC-CH fans as "poor," instead opting for the more palatable and universal "middle class" description.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

In the trailer, the last video clip they show is The Shot (Duke vs UK), whereas the rest of the video shows footage from great Duke-UNC games.

While I always enjoy seeing those 2.1 seconds, it seemed a little out of place.

[MulletMan]

In the trailer, the last video clip they show is The Shot (Duke vs UK), whereas the rest of the video shows footage from great Duke-UNC games.

While I always enjoy seeing those 2.1 seconds, it seemed a little out of place.

They also showed Jordan's clincher* against Georgetown in the '82 title game... albeit an angle that I'd not seen before.


* You know, clincher minus the part where Georgetown litterally hands the ball over to Worthy. Don't you love how Dean had to have both of his titles gifted to him? I know I do :D

[gotham devil]

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/2009/02/23/2009-02-23_battle_for_tobacco_road_nc_rivals_dukein.html


"Tobacco Road" points out, more than once, that Duke students are not reclamation projects. Many come from top prep schools, and most are headed toward high-level, lucrative lives.

[gotham devil]

http://new.kentuckysportsradio.com/?p=14421

UNC intellectual Bomani Jones was taped for this documentary.

[BlueintheFace]

Highlights of the documentary

"F*** you Dean!"
-Coach K

"You learn to see the beauty of it all"
-Narrator as goofy picture of Hansbrough with two pieces of gauze stuck up his nostrils comes on the screen

[91devil]

Just finished watching the program. I thought it was generally well done - the first half was almost exclusively about UNC, the second half was mostly about Duke.

There were certainly a few shots at Duke, including some random kid from UMD who just lobbed insults at us during his eight seconds on camera. Bomani was less acerbic than I thought he would be, though he certainly doesn't seem to have any great feelings for Duke.

What did other people think? I certainly learned some things about the rivalry and about some of the past games.

[captmojo]

Not nearly as balanced as the show they did for OSU/Michigan football rivalry.

Jim Sumner looks good on camera.

[BlueintheFace]

There were certainly a few shots at Duke, including some random kid from UMD who just lobbed insults at us during his eight seconds on camera. Bomani was less acerbic than I thought he would be, though he certainly doesn't seem to have any great feelings for Duke.


That kid was the one who did "This is Why Duke Sucks." Hardly a credible source.

[Son of Mojo]

A) why was there any Maryland presence in this at all and B) please tell me I'm not the only one who caught the line after they talked about unc winning their (hopefully forever) last NC stating "they regained what was rightfully theirs." *paraphrasing that*

[Rudy]

What a lovely tribute to UNC and its dominance over those rich, nerdy, unworthy Duke outsiders from the North.

OMG what crap. I hope Coach K shows it over and over before the final game, so our guys will be totally pissed off. Not a mention of Duke actually winning the ACC tournament in 2005, when UNC's loss in the semis gave them rest before the NCAA's. Ugh.

I would be more pissed off except for the nice things Roy said over the Eve Carson tribute at Cameron.

[weezie]

I wish they'd spent more time "highlighting" Matty's years at the hole helm.

Such wonderful memories....:rolleyes:

All in all, though, toooooo much barfy light blue.

[Lord Ash]

I rather enjoyed it. Great old school stuff, which this 34 year old really appreciated it. Dean looked SO damn young! I didn't like that they allowed Carolina fans to define what UNC was as a university and then allowed them to define Duke as well. I also bristled at the "what was rightfully theirs" line. Overall, however, I thought it was thoroughly enjoyable.

BTW... am I the only one who thinks that Eric Montross grew into a darn fine looking gent?

[Duke79UNLV77]

did not find it very balanced.

[dukemsu]

Not balanced in the slightest. For some reason some random clueless Maryland grad was a prominent voice of Duke hatred. Weren't there any Holes available?

Awful lot of Dean worship, which is great in a social awareness and civil rights sense, but not always in a tactical coaching sense. No criticism of the gutlessness of the Four Corners, which I have always found hilarious. Completely glossed over Doherty's incompetence.

A long stanza on the Tsunami which included the old bit likening K to a rat.

Overall, some great footage from the forgotten years, but a heavily slanted presentation to satisfy Duke haters nationwide. Disappointing.

dukemsu

[rodge79]

That was the biggest piece of Carolina homer nonsense I have ever seen. The "maryland guy" was the dude from the "This is why Duke sucks" youtube video. And that's just the beginning of the ridiculousness ... the soundtrack whenever Duke was being mentioned? Absolutely asinine ... just too bad I can't get my hour back.

[CLT Devil]

Too bad that was so disappointing. I cannot believe they had the "This is why Duke sucks" guy as a main commentator either. Also......I HATE Will Blythe.

There are many things they could have touched on for us, as a result it was heavily leaned toward UNC. And yes, the Ratface comments were just dumb.

[moonpie23]

bomani jones immediately dashed any credibility they may have wanted to establish..

can't wait till he's whining about being "downsized" from 850 the buzz..


oh yeah, when i watched the last portion about gerald's clean block on hanstravel, i thought that was a bit negative towards duke.

[Biscuit]

bomani jones immediately dashed any credibility they may have wanted to establish..

can't wait till he's whining about being "downsized" from 850 the buzz..


oh yeah, when i watched the last portion about gerald's clean block on hanstravel, i thought that was a bit negative towards duke.

Dude, "clean block"? Intentional or not, I think even the most pro-Duke fan on the planet can admit that Henderson definitely committed a foul on the play, no? :cool:

I think you all are right on the money in this thread, although I'm not sure its grounds for complaint, since HBO can tell any narrative they choose to in their documentaries and their "private and privileged vs. public and poor" story probably plays well.

But even from my light blue perspective, it seemed too slanted towards UNC as the good guy in the rivalry. The only exception was the treatment of Redick, who I thought came off pretty well, and the documentary accurately suggested that he was only hated because he was so good and because he went to Duke.

[gethlives]

Well now I am understanding why I enjoyed the documentary so much--I always feel balance is overrated at least when balance tilts to my side. :)

But still I don't think Redick was the only Duke guy who came off looking well. I think Bilas showed what a class act he is. I loved his comment on Doherty pulling the shot out of his a-- Ito beat Duke in '84 and his imitation of Brad Daugherty was spot on.

[Billy Dat]

What always amazes me, and this doc drove it home, is that for all of UNC's positioning Duke as a bastion of outsiders - basically invading carpetbaggers - their entire hallowed basketball program rests on a foundation of 5 New Yorkers and a Jersey boy - McGuire, Rosenbluth, Cunningham, Groll, Brennan and Kearns. So many of their other legends are New Yorkers, too.

As a post-Heyman fan, the doc drove home to me that there should really be a statue of Artie inside Cameron, and that statue should be him punching McGuire in his nether regions. What a tough SOB. At the banquet, they ought to give out a Heyman award based purely on toughness...it's Singler's until someone takes it away.

I enoyed it, but I agree that we were certainly cast as the heavies. The fact that the "Why Duke Sucks" tool was on there running his mouth shows that they didn't really try and balance it out.

[Rudy]

Had it been billed as a tribute to UNC it wouldn't bother me. Something like "Carolina Tarheels --America's Team of College Basketball" then there would be no expectation of a balanced approach. Duke was treated as the worthy adversary of the heroes, and truly heroic teams must have worthy adversaries to prove their greatness.

[Stray Gator]

Not balanced in the slightest. For some reason some random clueless Maryland grad was a prominent voice of Duke hatred. Weren't there any Holes available?

Awful lot of Dean worship, which is great in a social awareness and civil rights sense, but not always in a tactical coaching sense. No criticism of the gutlessness of the Four Corners, which I have always found hilarious. Completely glossed over Doherty's incompetence.

A long stanza on the Tsunami which included the old bit likening K to a rat.

Overall, some great footage from the forgotten years, but a heavily slanted presentation to satisfy Duke haters nationwide. Disappointing.

dukemsu

This comes pretty close to summarizing my impressions, too. Based on what I had been told by a couple of the Duke people who were interviewed for (and appeared in) the piece, I was anticipating something more balanced and neutral. Instead, this "sports documentary" just embraced and reinforced and perpetuated the perspective of so many North Carolinians--with which I am very familiar, having been born there and attended high school there myself--that Carolina coaches and players are the "noble heroes of our homeland" who valiantly champion the "shining light of truth and justice for all," while the Duke coaches and players are "nefarious invading villains from afar" who dwell like vermin in the "dark castle" and "fight dirty."

Some of that message was fairly blatant--note the recurring images of UNC players who have been bloodied by Duke players--while some was more subtle, like the story of how Duke coach Vic Bubas "stole" Heyman from UNC. And while deifying Dean Smith, I heard no mention of his "distinction" for being ejected from the '91 Final Four, or his penchant for chiding opposing players on the floor during games, or the time he called an opposing player a "choker." Nor was there any explanation of what Matt Doherty was doing provocatively "bow-chesting" his way into the midst of the coaches and players on the Duke bench during a game at Cameron. No mention of Makhtar's infamous antics, either.

Any lingering doubt that this was produced to elicit applause and huzzahs from the Duke-haters is dispelled by the gratuitous inclusion of the Terp fan and the guy who trotted out the "ratface" bit. Perhaps the most telling comment is the fact that the most objective and charitable of the UNC spokespeople when talking about Duke is Art Chansky--which is rather like sitting at a table where the person who speaks most highly of Bill Clinton is Rush Limbaugh...

[Biscuit]

This comes pretty close to summarizing my impressions, too. Based on what I had been told by a couple of the Duke people who were interviewed for (and appeared in) the piece, I was anticipating something more balanced and neutral. Instead, this "sports documentary" just embraced and reinforced and perpetuated the perspective of so many North Carolinians--with which I am very familiar, having been born there and attended high school there myself--that Carolina coaches and players are the "noble heroes of our homeland" who valiantly champion the "shining light of truth and justice for all," while the Duke coaches and players are "nefarious invading villains from afar" who dwell like vermin in the "dark castle" and "fight dirty."

Some of that message was fairly blatant--note the recurring images of UNC players who have been bloodied by Duke players--while some was more subtle, like the story of how Duke coach Vic Bubas "stole" Heyman from UNC. And while deifying Dean Smith, I heard no mention of his "distinction" for being ejected from the '91 Final Four, or his penchant for chiding opposing players on the floor during games, or the time he called an opposing player a "choker." Nor was there any explanation of what Matt Doherty was doing provocatively "bow-chesting" his way into the midst of the coaches and players on the Duke bench during a game at Cameron. No mention of Makhtar's infamous antics, either.

Any lingering doubt that this was produced to elicit applause and huzzahs from the Duke-haters is dispelled by the gratuitous inclusion of the Terp fan and the guy who trotted out the "ratface" bit. Perhaps the most telling comment is the fact that the most objective and charitable of the UNC spokespeople when talking about Duke is Art Chansky--which is rather like sitting at a table where the person who speaks most highly of Bill Clinton is Rush Limbaugh...

I agree with your conclusion, but not necessarily your evidence. Sure, they could have mentioned Dean's '91 ejection and the unfortunate legacy of Mahktar. But they only had an hour, and neither of those had particular relevance to the rivalry- would you have rather they take time away from the 1991 upset over UNLV to talk about Dean not carrying his team to the final that year? Also, if this wasn't a Duke basketball board, I could offer up plenty of Duke-related counterpoints to a 1991 ejection and Mahktar that also didn't make the cut. Also, I think Duke came across a lot better than UNC in the story of Heyman's recruitment, and rightfully so.

What I thought was the strangest and most biased thing about it, honestly, was the music. The score clearly was meant to provide a heroic small-town backdrop for UNC and a darker backdrop for Duke. It was obvious, really kind of weird, and off-putting even for a Carolina boy.

[OldSchool]

HBO can tell any narrative they choose to in their documentaries and their "private and privileged vs. public and poor" story probably plays well.

Same storyline Nifong and the Gang of 88 were pushing to put the lax players in prison. Played well with the media and likely would have played well with a Durham jury. Justice will be the day the News & Observer and the Herald Sun consist of nothing but sports pages.

It's so tiresome -- basically the average Duke student as the Spalding character from "Caddyshack" or worse. Never mind the huge number of Duke students who are on some form of scholarship or other financial assistance. And never mind that many students from well-off families were raised well and are positive contributors to society.

But many people lap up the cliched storyline because it plays into their own prejudices and preconceptions.

[Biscuit]

Same storyline Nifong and the Gang of 88 were pushing to put the lax players in prison. Played well with the media and likely would have played well with a Durham jury. Justice will be the day the News & Observer and the Herald Sun consist of nothing but sports pages.

It's so tiresome -- basically the average Duke student as the Spalding character from "Caddyshack" or worse. Never mind the huge number of Duke students who are on some form of scholarship or other financial assistance. And never mind that many students from well-off families were raised well and are positive contributors to society.

But many people lap up the cliched storyline because it plays into their own prejudices and preconceptions.

I agree that it's cliched, but you really shouldn't compare the ethical obligations of documentarians with those of the D.A.'s office or even the daily print media. They have different audiences and totally different intentions and obligations.

[OldSchool]

I agree that it's cliched, but you really shouldn't compare the ethical obligations of documentarians with those of the D.A.'s office or even the daily print media. They have different audiences and totally different intentions and obligations.

Yes, you're right the ethical obligations are different. Journalists are always going on about their ethical standards, but in practice they are very low. And I don't mean to heap too much onto this one sports documentary, just to point out that it is a part of a much larger drumbeat that is pervasive in media and entertainment.

[Stray Gator]

I agree with your conclusion, but not necessarily your evidence. Sure, they could have mentioned Dean's '91 ejection and the unfortunate legacy of Mahktar. But they only had an hour, and neither of those had particular relevance to the rivalry- would you have rather they take time away from the 1991 upset over UNLV to talk about Dean not carrying his team to the final that year? Also, if this wasn't a Duke basketball board, I could offer up plenty of Duke-related counterpoints to a 1991 ejection and Mahktar that also didn't make the cut. Also, I think Duke came across a lot better than UNC in the story of Heyman's recruitment, and rightfully so.

What I thought was the strangest and most biased thing about it, honestly, was the music. The score clearly was meant to provide a heroic small-town backdrop for UNC and a darker backdrop for Duke. It was obvious, really kind of weird, and off-putting even for a Carolina boy.

My point was intended more to note that they emphasized the negatives about the personal character of Duke's coaches and players and the positives about Carolina's. If K is chided for complaining about Dean's pounding of the scorer's table with impunity and for yelling an expletive at Dean and for "working the refs," why no semblance of balance by mentioning Dean's ejection from the Final Four and yelling at opposing players? Based on this "history," Dean was a flawless human being. And if you don't think Makhtar's antics were a part of the rivalry, you must have missed the incident where he jumped up on the press table after the 1998 ACC Finals in Greensboro, stood directly in front of K's family and the Duke section, and made the exaggerated throat-slashing gesture.

As for Heyman, I guess we just had different impressions of the explanation about how he ended up at Duke--his father had a spat with McGuire, and Bubas opportunistically swooped in and stole him from UNC; but under this program's storyline, it turned out right, because Heyman was another dirty Duke player who provoked a fight with his old friend Larry Brown and punched Coach McGuire with a "low blow"--i.e., he would not have fit the heroic, good-guy image of the Carolina player.

I will admit, however, that my impressions may be skewed because of my expectation of relative even-handedness, based on what I'd heard from friends who participated as interviewees. This was, overwhelmingly, a propaganda piece that portrayed Carolina in a highly favorable light and cast Duke as the force of darkness. Except, of course, for the parting wink at diplomacy in the last minute--which reminded me of a celebrity roast where the last speaker tries to say something kind about the person who was just slashed and skewered for an hour by others who were only half-joking. I'm neither surprised nor angered by the program; just disappointed that we continue to see the rivalry publicized and memorialized in an unfairly slanted manner.

[jimsumner]

I think they could have made a ten-part mini-series on the subject. Lots of good stuff on the cutting-room floor, I suspect.

I think they made a good-faith effort to be even-handed. It can't be easy to find a proper balance.

With one caveat. The head-scratcher for me was the inclusion of a Maryland fan for no apparent reason other than to perpetuate negative Duke stereotypes. Why bring in an outsider at all? And, if you go down that road, why not bring in an outsider from the old ABC contingent to balance it out?

And, without betraying any confidences, I'm pretty sure some folks at Methodist Flats share that sentiment.

But for the most part, I think HBO did a pretty good job.

[InSpades]

I didn't think it was that unfair either. The "rat-face" and Maryland guy certainly were a bit excessive. They also seemed to portray Duke as universally hated when UNC isn't exactly "america's team". Outside of fans for both teams the hatred for Duke and UNC isn't that different. We probably get a bit more of it, but not to any n'th degree.

1 thing the documentary did manage to do was to get me even more pumped for March 8th. I have a good feeling about the new lineup and would love nothing more than to watch Gerald spoil a certain someone's senior day.

[Grounded]

I couldn't get past the music. Saxophone. Really? My wife and I couldn't believe we were watching a recently (i.e., anything post-St. Elmo's Fire) produced documentary.

She also asked at one point if this was about UNC. I didn't mind so much because I learned a lot of things that I didn't know. I find it all so interesting, so I could care less about any bias. Lord Ash...interesting that she kept saying how good looking Eric Montross was...too funny.

Overall, I'm shocked that with that kind of story, interviews (sans Maryland guy), narration (well done, Liev) and footage (historical and current), they couldn't make a better film. Honestly, I'm surprised it even made the HBO cut. I still can't get past that horrible music... :confused:

[sivartrenrag]

Does anyone know if HBO has any kind of online service where I can watch the documentary? I don't have HBO but I'm dying to watch this.

I think some of the things that have been said about it are quite interesting... was Mahktar not even mentioned? I imagine he doesn't fit into the "Tarheels as heroes" image they want to project.

[Onlyduke]

I haven't seen the special yet .... have a friend taping it for me. I sincerely hope all the posters who were so upset by the biased reporting will contact HBO.

[Biscuit]

I haven't seen the special yet .... have a friend taping it for me. I sincerely hope all the posters who were so upset by the biased reporting will contact HBO.

Again ... it's not reporting, and it's a mistake to call it that. It's a documentary. As long as it does not contain errors, I'm not sure what there is to complain about to HBO. They don't have an obligation to present their documentary in a way that makes Duke fans happy. This is the appropriate place to discuss and complain.

[CLT Devil]

Sorry to go Columbo on here....but one more thing;

The guy with the big beard who basically said that (paraphrasing) "People go to Carolina to make something out of nothing." Basically you can go there having nothing and be a success, where to go to Duke you already have to have something.

1. Duke has a need-blind admissions policy...if you can get in they will find a way to help you pay for it.

2. My numerous friends at Carolina were some of the most snobbish, spoiled (esp. the frat boys) and entitled people one has ever met. I just remember the sheer amount of money floating around the frat houses and bookies on any gameday. Personally, the vast majority of my friends who went to Carolina came from very good homes, very wealthy homes.

Just too bad this garbage is thrown out there for the 'tsunami' to continue. I think the HBO peice that Bob Costas did on coach K a couple years ago was much more insightful into the actual man, but that wouldnt stir the pot enough and maybe is why Bob's show is no longer.

Between Bill Maher, the Pelosi BS documentary and now this I wonder why I still have HBO.

[Biscuit]

My point was intended more to note that they emphasized the negatives about the personal character of Duke's coaches and players and the positives about Carolina's. If K is chided for complaining about Dean's pounding of the scorer's table with impunity and for yelling an expletive at Dean and for "working the refs," why no semblance of balance by mentioning Dean's ejection from the Final Four and yelling at opposing players? Based on this "history," Dean was a flawless human being. And if you don't think Makhtar's antics were a part of the rivalry, you must have missed the incident where he jumped up on the press table after the 1998 ACC Finals in Greensboro, stood directly in front of K's family and the Duke section, and made the exaggerated throat-slashing gesture.

As for Heyman, I guess we just had different impressions of the explanation about how he ended up at Duke--his father had a spat with McGuire, and Bubas opportunistically swooped in and stole him from UNC; but under this program's storyline, it turned out right, because Heyman was another dirty Duke player who provoked a fight with his old friend Larry Brown and punched Coach McGuire with a "low blow"--i.e., he would not have fit the heroic, good-guy image of the Carolina player.

I will admit, however, that my impressions may be skewed because of my expectation of relative even-handedness, based on what I'd heard from friends who participated as interviewees. This was, overwhelmingly, a propaganda piece that portrayed Carolina in a highly favorable light and cast Duke as the force of darkness. Except, of course, for the parting wink at diplomacy in the last minute--which reminded me of a celebrity roast where the last speaker tries to say something kind about the person who was just slashed and skewered for an hour by others who were only half-joking. I'm neither surprised nor angered by the program; just disappointed that we continue to see the rivalry publicized and memorialized in an unfairly slanted manner.

I think Dean was chided where appropriate-- the bit about the SAT scores certainly was unflattering, as it should have been, but they could have given more than just cursory lip service to his claim of the latent racism in the signs if they wanted to really make Duke look bad. And I thought they painted a relatively flattering portrait of K-- even the cussing at Dean was presented as being a sort of "there's a new sheriff in town" proclamation, rather than the totally out of line behavior that most UNC fans would consider it.

It's also worth bearing in mind that this is a product of HBO and thus what many people call "liberal Hollywood." You kinda have to expect a flattering portrait of a guy who joined lunch counter protests in the 60s and recruited Charlie Scott.

I thought the Heyman stuff was unflattering towards UNC because I didn't know McGuire fought with his dad. I think that's totally unacceptable coach behavior, so that's the only thing I took away from that.

Still, I agree with you generally. it was way more pro-UNC than I expected, to the point that I think it took away from the overall product. The music, in particular, was just bizarre.

[Biscuit]

Sorry to go Columbo on here....but one more thing;
.

Between Bill Maher, the Pelosi BS documentary and now this I wonder why I still have HBO.

Apologies for going off-topic, but there's some great stuff there too. Pelosi's right-wing media analysis piece was rightfully panned, but her other recent documentary on Ted Haggard is moving and fascinating. And their Roman Polanski documentary was as good as any documentary I've seen in the last few years.

[Mal]

Having really enjoyed the Michigan/Ohio State football documentary from HBO last year, I expected a lot, a LOT, more from this show. That production actually allowed a few Michigan voices to politely slam back at Ohio State fans as thugs and renegades after allowing Ohio State voices to rip Michigan for stealing their high school players and being more prestigious.

This effort presented none of that back and forth. As just one more example not yet mentioned above, think of the segment on Cameron. A presentation of Carolina voices trashing Duke students and the Crazies in particular is not surprising or unfair, provided you then get either (i) some mention of how Cameron and Krzyzewskiville have revolutionized the way students and fans engage with college basketball, with examples of trends started by the Crazies or some of their more hilarious antics, or (ii) a mention of how ironic it is that the supposedly stuffy, affluent, entitled Duke fans are justified in calling the supposedly salt of the earth, loyal to the death passionate Carolina fans the "wine and cheese" crowd (perhaps with appropriate elevator music). Instead, to compliment the standard Carolina indictments, we got a Maryland guy calling us the most annoying nerds in the world and a retelling of the J.R. Can't Reid incident from the Carolina perspective. Gee, thanks.

The only silver lining I take from all this is how juvenile and petty Carolina fans come off as (especially Bomani Jones and Will Blythe), while we were represented with class by people like Bilas and Redick and Grant. Jim Lampley certainly came off as a pompous airhead and didn't do much for positive impressions of Carolina grads, too.

Also, our 2001 title and the fact we won 16 of 19 from '97 onward were given about four seconds of time total; they focused a good bit on how Duke struggled to get back in the game with UNC during the early K years, including heartbreaking losses at Cameron dissected. Where were the descriptions of the Battier chases down Forte game or Duhon's length of the court drive game (one-second clip of shot with narration over it only) and how bitter those were for Carolina? What about the fact that after they won in '93 we went to three more Final Fours over the next 8 years while they fell off in Dean's last years and then fell apart under Guthridge and Doherty? It's like they ran out of time in the hour and the '90's and early '00's got the shaft. Unfortunately, we ruled that era of the rivalry. Funny how that works.

I appreciated the pre-1990 history and especially game footage, and I love any opportunity to see Chris Carrawell smile. That brightens any day. Overall, however, this thing stunk. I was hoping to show it to my 4-year-old daughter, who, after watching part of the Georgetown game with me, has taken to jumping up and down on her bed and repeatedly yelling "I'm a Cameron Crazy!" But having now watched it, I fear if I show it to her she'll think Duke is evil.

Just one more echoing of a sentiment upthread - the fact that Duke is repeatedly and unironically portrayed, with no rebuttal, as interloping outsiders, in the same hour that spends significant time describing the history of UNC's rise to national prominance on the back of a bunch of NY transplants, may be the single biggest indication of its lack of balance. How ridiculous.

[Faison1]

All in all, I thought it was pretty good. There were some inexplanable parts: Rat-Face, Maryland Alum, Guy with the beard. And they didn't really mention anything about Dean's bad qualities.

But the footage of the first great UNC team, and the Art Heyman stuff was GREAT!! And I really enjoyed seeing Sumner and Featherston talk, not to mention Bilas, Hill and Laettner. The game footage was pretty sweet too....recalling those mid 80's years was awesome....what great times and great teams!

I guess it's just an easy plot line to exaggerate. The one thing I always dislike is when they talk about tuition being $40k.....isn't UNC out of state tuition over $30k? It's kinda like asking a coach what his salary is during a public presser.....just kinda rude and pointless.

[geraldsneighbor]

I thought it was very good over all. I felt Duke was represented pretty well. I was able to learn a lot of things I didn't know that took place. The J.R. Can't Reid sign made me giggle.

[CLT Devil]

I guess it's just an easy plot line to exaggerate. The one thing I always dislike is when they talk about tuition being $40k.....isn't UNC out of state tuition over $30k? It's kinda like asking a coach what his salary is during a public presser.....just kinda rude and pointless.

Just looked it up....out of state tuition.....wait for it.....$20,603. That's pretty dern expensive for a second rate education.

Anytime someone asks me why Duke costs so much more than UNC I tell them it's the same reason a Rolls Royce costs more than a Yugo.

[Faison1]

Just looked it up....out of state tuition.....wait for it.....$20,603. That's pretty dern expensive for a second rate education.

Anytime someone asks me why Duke costs so much more than UNC I tell them it's the same reason a Rolls Royce costs more than a Yugo.

Well, my wife went there, and she's pretty smart, so I wouldn't say it's second rate. I'm sure you're joking......but I guess my point is that if you include room and board, UNC's out-of-state is not cheap.

And like the earlier poster said, the guys I knew that went to UNC were far from broke.....in fact, if you look at the local elite class, I would say most of them want to attend Carolina.....and join the same fraternity and wear khakis with belts and polo shirts. And visors. :)

[gethlives]

I do think that if one was a Duke fan there would be room to be critical of the bias in the documentary, but I think the more general point that the doc was trying to make is something that I hear echoed all the time here: that Duke is really an island in North Carolina in a sea of Carolina blue and state red. Part of that gives Duke a chip on its shoulder in a good way. K recounted the story of his daughter being teased at school because of her dad and how he told her to proudly wear her Duke sweatshirt. The common theme was that yes Duke is an outside entity in many ways in NC partly because of its predominance of out of state students who often don't settle in state. There will always be alot more Carolina fans around here (in NC) than Duke fans and I think that was what the documentary was trying to reflect--a very different scenario than the OSU-Michigan rivalry.

And while the difference in out of state vs. tuition at Duke is pretty great, let's not forget that that the vast majority of UNC students are in-state and I think the difference there is about $25K a year, which is pretty big even if you think getting a degree from a top 20 institution is 2nd rate.

[jimsumner]

"Just looked it up....out of state tuition.....wait for it.....$20,603. That's pretty dern expensive for a second rate education.

Anytime someone asks me why Duke costs so much more than UNC I tell them it's the same reason a Rolls Royce costs more than a Yugo."

And we complain when people think Duke is populated with smug elitists.

[Biscuit]

Just looked it up....out of state tuition.....wait for it.....$20,603. That's pretty dern expensive for a second rate education.

Anytime someone asks me why Duke costs so much more than UNC I tell them it's the same reason a Rolls Royce costs more than a Yugo.

Maybe they weren't exaggerating that plot line about wealthy elitists vs. the salt of the earth after all! ;)

[Faison1]

"Just looked it up....out of state tuition.....wait for it.....$20,603. That's pretty dern expensive for a second rate education.

Anytime someone asks me why Duke costs so much more than UNC I tell them it's the same reason a Rolls Royce costs more than a Yugo."

And we complain when people think Duke is populated with smug elitists.

Hey Jim!! I really enjoyed listening to you speak on the documentary....great job! I saw you last night and thought, man, we have a neat tool in the DBR boards.....in just the last month, I've corresponded with Bilas and Sumner. That's pretty cool........

[jimsumner]

Well, I've never been called a neat tool before but I think it's a compliment.

So, thank you. :)

[91devil]

Just looked it up....out of state tuition.....wait for it.....$20,603. That's pretty dern expensive for a second rate education.

Anytime someone asks me why Duke costs so much more than UNC I tell them it's the same reason a Rolls Royce costs more than a Yugo.


Um, that is a pretty silly response. I hope you were attempting to make a joke (which came across poorly).

UNC-Chapel Hill is an excellent school. Chapel Hill is a really neat little town. I, like many others on this board, have many good friends who attended school there. As Jay Bilas said at the very end of the program, we are both lucky to have each other. You can't be part of a great rivalry without a great rival.

Our beef is with the folks who put the program together, not with UNC-Chapel Hill itself.

[Bluedog]

Just looked it up....out of state tuition.....wait for it.....$20,603.

Total UNC out-of-state cost = $33,269

Average cost for Duke student on financial aid (about 44% apply, 40% receive aid) ~ $24,945
Average cost for out-of-state UNC student on financial aid (about 75% apply, about 42% receive); hard to determine, since packages aren't divided between out-of-state and in-state, but assuming the packages are similar ~ $23,824

https://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg03_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1026
http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg03_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1600

Both great schools for good prices really. I think both are tops in "best schools for the best value" lists (taking the average for a typical student cost into account).

[alteran]

And like the earlier poster said, the guys I knew that went to UNC were far from broke.....in fact, if you look at the local elite class, I would say most of them want to attend Carolina.....and join the same fraternity and wear khakis with belts and polo shirts. And visors. :)

BINGO. I missed which early poster said this, but it's dead on.

This is something I'm surprised that almost nobody realizes-- UNC's student body is dominated by almost exactly the same societal classes as Duke. In fact, I'd bet money that Duke's student body is more diverse.

Go to student lots at UNC and Duke-- you'll find the cars remarkably similar.

But you can't let that get in the way of a good story...

[CLT Devil]

Um, that is a pretty silly response. I hope you were attempting to make a joke (which came across poorly).

UNC-Chapel Hill is an excellent school. Chapel Hill is a really neat little town. I, like many others on this board, have many good friends who attended school there. As Jay Bilas said at the very end of the program, we are both lucky to have each other. You can't be part of a great rivalry without a great rival.

Our beef is with the folks who put the program together, not with UNC-Chapel Hill itself.

Geez. Maybe we are a little too sensitive. Like I said, 90% of my friends are UNC alums...just trying to insert a little humor. Of course its not second rate, of course UNC does not compare to a Yugo, etc, etc. I actually spent more time over at Chapel Hill on the weekends...better bars, better looking women...I'm sure this will elict a response from someone too, but it's true.

Sorry if it came across "poorly" - and to all I offended.

[heyman25]

My point was intended more to note that they emphasized the negatives about the personal character of Duke's coaches and players and the positives about Carolina's. If K is chided for complaining about Dean's pounding of the scorer's table with impunity and for yelling an expletive at Dean and for "working the refs," why no semblance of balance by mentioning Dean's ejection from the Final Four and yelling at opposing players? Based on this "history," Dean was a flawless human being. And if you don't think Makhtar's antics were a part of the rivalry, you must have missed the incident where he jumped up on the press table after the 1998 ACC Finals in Greensboro, stood directly in front of K's family and the Duke section, and made the exaggerated throat-slashing gesture.

As for Heyman, I guess we just had different impressions of the explanation about how he ended up at Duke--his father had a spat with McGuire, and Bubas opportunistically swooped in and stole him from UNC; but under this program's storyline, it turned out right, because Heyman was another dirty Duke player who provoked a fight with his old friend Larry Brown and punched Coach McGuire with a "low blow"--i.e., he would not have fit the heroic, good-guy image of the Carolina player.

I will admit, however, that my impressions may be skewed because of my expectation of relative even-handedness, based on what I'd heard from friends who participated as interviewees. This was, overwhelmingly, a propaganda piece that portrayed Carolina in a highly favorable light and cast Duke as the force of darkness. Except, of course, for the parting wink at diplomacy in the last minute--which reminded me of a celebrity roast where the last speaker tries to say something kind about the person who was just slashed and skewered for an hour by others who were only half-joking. I'm neither surprised nor angered by the program; just disappointed that we continue to see the rivalry publicized and memorialized in an unfairly slanted manner.
Larry Brown got a Hard Foul. He started the fight. Brown would have been ejected in today's NCAA Play. It would have never been allowed to escalate.Doug Moe spit at Heyman during the game. UNC biased. UNC got a variety of students to talk. Duke gets 1 or 2. The Warrenton bearded man gets to call Coach K a rat.Dean Smith is Abraham Lincoln incarnate. Why did they exclude John Edwards. Why were there not more UNC fans that got to be interviewed? The HBO title was misleading. Will Blythe gets to promote his book.Why not let his book title be the name of the show? Very few Pro Duke moments.

[Defenserules]

Two points - The doc did point out that Duke was an elite school full of smart students. It never mentioned anything about UNC's academics, the students seem to think its a great school but from an outsider perspective its just ok. There are many better state schools. I'm not saying its Middle Valley Central State Basket Weaving, but its just a decent state school, most state's have one. It's not Michigan, UVA, or Cal Berkley. I'm not sure if its even as good as UCLA. It certainly isn't top 20 as some poster alleged.

Second Point - I have loved ones and friends that went there, and despite there feelings I still believe they went to a second rate university simply for the fact that its UNC and UNC sucks.

[blueprofessor]

As for Heyman, I guess we just had different impressions of the explanation about how he ended up at Duke--his father had a spat with McGuire, and Bubas opportunistically swooped in and stole him from UNC; but under this program's storyline, it turned out right, because Heyman was another dirty Duke player who provoked a fight with his old friend Larry Brown and punched Coach McGuire with a "low blow"--i.e., he would not have fit the heroic, good-guy image of the Carolina player.



Stray,with Duke ahead and on the way to a win on Feb 4,1961 ,and Heyman having scored 36 points,despite being spat in the face by Doug Moe on every shot, Heyman committed a hard foul on Larry Brown who jumped up and began slugging Heyman,who punched back.The most cowardly blow came from Donnie Walsh who came off the UNC bench to strike Heyman in the head from behind,knocking Heyman to the floor.
Having to correct the biases and prejudices of the pro UNC media (as some are doing regarding the documentary at hand) which accused Heyman of punching first, Coach Bubas held a press conference to rebut this sorry journalism and he played the brawl film in slow motion---proving Brown had thrown the first punch,Heyman had defended himself, and Walsh had knocked Heyman to the floor from behind.Amazingly,Brown had been allowed to stay in the game,while Heyman was ejected.

Earlier, in the 1960 Duke-UNC frosh game, Heyman was cold-cocked by UNC's Dieter Krause.

Heyman,had in fact, stepped between his dad and Coach McGuire to prevent a fist fight on the recruiting trip.Obviously,the family was not impressed by the boorish behavior on McGuire's part and decided Art would never play for UNC.

Lucky for Duke,too, because starting in 1961, Duke was ranked in AP's weekly top 10 every week but one for 6 years according to John Roth.
Certainly, there have been heroic, classy UNC players, but Brown,Moe,Krause, and Walsh most certainly were not.

When the producers and writers of this propaganda --documentary go so far to favor UNC, you can bet that their fright at what telling the truth would project was profound.Don't we encounter this yellow(baby blue ) journalism regularly?:)

Best regards--Blueprofessor:):D

[heyman25]

Stray,with Duke ahead and on the way to a win on Feb 4,1961 ,and Heyman having scored 36 points,despite being spat in the face by Doug Moe on every shot, Heyman committed a hard foul on Larry Brown who jumped up and began slugging Heyman,who punched back.The most cowardly blow came from Donnie Walsh who came off the UNC bench to strike Heyman in the head from behind,knocking Heyman to the floor.
Having to correct the biases and prejudices of the pro UNC media (as some are doing regarding the documentary at hand) which accused Heyman of punching first, Coach Bubas held a press conference to rebut this sorry journalism and he played the brawl film in slow motion---proving Brown had thrown the first punch,Heyman had defended himself, and Walsh had knocked Heyman to the floor from behind.Amazingly,Brown had been allowed to stay in the game,while Heyman was ejected.

Earlier, in the 1960 Duke-UNC frosh game, Heyman was cold-cocked by UNC's Dieter Krause.

Heyman,had in fact, stepped between his dad and Coach McGuire to prevent a fist fight on the recruiting trip.Obviously,the family was not impressed by the boorish behavior on McGuire's part and decided Art would never play for UNC.

Lucky for Duke,too, because starting in 1961, Duke was ranked in AP's weekly top 10 every week but one for 6 years according to John Roth.
Certainly, there have been heroic, classy UNC players, but Brown,Moe,Krause, and Walsh most certainly were not.

When the producers and writers of this propaganda --documentary go so far to favor UNC, you can bet that their fright at what telling the truth would project was profound.Don't we encounter this yellow(baby blue ) journalism regularly?:)

Best regards--Blueprofessor:):D
Great Post Blueprofessor

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

It was great to see Heyman and his pride in having punched Coach McGuire in the balls.

On the other hand, I would have preferred seeing coverage of Heyman vs. UNC in a more positive light; particularly Heyman's last game at Duke Indoor Stadium, when he had 40 points and 25 rebounds against UNC (including Billy Cunningham). That was Heyman (1963 NPOY) at his best.

It's very difficult to fully cover the Duke/UNC rivalry in only one hour.

[Faison1]

It was great to see Heyman and his pride in having punched Coach McGuire in the balls.

On the other hand, I would have preferred seeing coverage of Heyman vs. UNC in a more positive light; particularly Heyman's last game at Duke Indoor Stadium, when he had 40 points and 25 rebounds against UNC (including Billy Cunningham). That was Heyman (1963 NPOY) at his best.

It's very difficult to fully cover the Duke/UNC rivalry in only one hour.

I would tend to agree with this. I'm guessing that the producers figured that most people who follow basketball are aware of Duke's dominance in the late '90's and early '00's, and therefore spent little time on it.....at the same time, I don't think they spent a lot of time on Carolina's '93 or '05 teams.

I have a HUGE Carolina friend living down the street, so I might go ask him about his view on the documentary. He got drunk over New Year's Eve this year and called K a phony.....I had to walk away before anything worse happened.....the next day we had a clear discussion about boundaries, and he admitted that he didn't think K is a phony.....so I'm hoping he will be reasonable.

[captmojo]

I have a HUGE Carolina friend living down the street, so I might go ask him about his view on the documentary......so I'm hoping he will be reasonable.

Just how big an old boy is he? Can he match up with the old boy in this avatar?


As for the second part...reasonable? Keep it real. :D

[Lord Ash]

Just a quick report; I went back to the wife, who watched with me, and asked if she thought there was any bias to the show. She immediately said "Oh yeah, a lot of bias towards UNC." I asked her to elaborate, and she just said that she thought Carolina was presented as the dominant program out of the two. Now, she is not as up on Duke/Carolina as we are, so I thought it was an interesting perspective.

[weezie]

Can he match up with the old boy in this avatar?


Geez capt! I was afraid that was a pic of you, yourself and you! :D I'm kind of scared of that guy...he'd be a good person to have standing under FSU's basket during free throws.

[captmojo]

I, me and myself was afraid of becoming that guy. You know, you can always go over tall guys but it's really tough to get around the wide dude.

[jimsumner]

Look, conflict sells.

Start with a legitimate dichotomy. A small, academically-elite private school whose student body is 85% from out of state. Eight miles away, you've got a much larger, state-supported public Ivy whose student body is 85% from in state. So, you've got some inherent tensions right there.

Then, make each of the schools one of the historically top half-dozen college basketball programs. Place them in the same high-profile conference, have them play anywhere between 2 and 4 times each year. Grudges and grievances build up and are nutured over years, generations even.

So, if you're HBO, aren't you going to emphasize the differences? Aren't you going to take a core of truth about the identities of each of the universities and stretch that core, reinforcing stereotypes to maintain the conflict?

I think it was Mark Twain who said "never let the truth get in the way of a good story." It is a great story and they mostly told the truth and they wisely emphasized the conflict.

Because, like I said, conflict sells.

But the Maryland guy still gives me the creeps. :)

[captmojo]

Quite true Jim, but it really looked as if they picked a side in the conflict. That "Boy of mine" has the DVR set to record the replay HBO is putting on tomorrow. It might be good to put a stopwatch on it to see the negative play of one versus the other. At first view, it appeared the positives were nearly equal. The negatives are another story.

My position on the bias was based on what I saw from the OSU/UM football rivalry broadcast some time ago that seemed very equal to both sides. It looks as though this formula wasn't followed here and I don't yet believe my opinion is tinted by dark blue shades. I don't have any deep interest in the football thing but I think that you could watch it, as an impartial viewer, and still come out that way, yet interested. This basketball effort appears designed to slant the viewer toward that ugly blue tint, leading the minions to the dark side. If I have the time available, I'll try to do the timing.

Your limited time on screen was well done. To his credit, so was Chansky's.

[Exiled_Devil]

Wow. I am just watching this now, and it is amazing to me how they gloss over the Duke succesful times and highlight the UNC - take 2001 vs 2005. They made a hige deal about 2005 and Roy getting a win over Duke on the way to the NC. Duke 2001 was briefly mentioned, with no mention of the Boozerless beat down at Carolina. That is a great basketball story, and a key game n teh rivalry.

Did they mention any recent close wins by Duke? I didn't catch any.

And the way they covered G bloodying Hans - all UNC voices, all slanted towards the demon that is G.

Disappointing, really.

[Stray Gator]

As one very astute observer pointed out to me earlier today, the fundamental problem with this "documentary" was that they let the UNC side of the rivalry be told from the UNC perspective, and let the Duke side be told from the UNC perspective, too. I think that hits directly at the heart of the matter, and explains the imbalance completely.

[Lord Ash]

Yep. I mentioned this back in my first post; in the beginning when they described Carolina, it was all Carolina fans describing the school and what it stood for. Then when they got to describing Duke, it was the same Carolina fans describing it, along with the Maryland guy. This trend continued throughout the piece. As Jim and a few others have said... making it a rich vs regular folk, outsiders vs good old boys story is a lot more interesting and plays into the preexisting stereotypes a lot easier than anything else.

[dbd4ever]

I watched it on HBO on Demand last night with my girlfriend of almost a year, so this is her first season of Duke Basketball and I wanted her to see it also and see some of the past moments of the rivalry. But the first thing she said about 15 minutes in was "are they ever gonna talk about Duke at all." Which I admit it was getting a little rough sitting there listening to how great Carolina was as a team and as a school and then here Duke is as the snobby northerners from up the street. And I think the parts I hated most was when Michael Jordan talked and when Roy Williams was talking about the comment K made about the double-standard in the ACC. But all in all it's always fun to see moments from the rivalry and hear some of the old Duke players talk about their times in college!! Go Duke!!

[The Gordog]

I would tend to agree with this. I'm guessing that the producers figured that most people who follow basketball are aware of Duke's dominance in the late '90's and early '00's, and therefore spent little time on it.....at the same time, I don't think they spent a lot of time on Carolina's '93 or '05 teams.

I have a HUGE Carolina friend living down the street, so I might go ask him about his view on the documentary. He got drunk over New Year's Eve this year and called K a phony.....I had to walk away before anything worse happened.....the next day we had a clear discussion about boundaries, and he admitted that he didn't think K is a phony.....so I'm hoping he will be reasonable.

It amazes me that so many people on this board have friends that are Carowhina fans. I guess if you live in NC it's inevitable, but for the rest of us it's pretty near unfathomable. I think your "friend" really does think K is a phony (in vino veritas!) but at least he hides his feelings from you for the sake of friendship when he isn't wasted. That's so nice.

[alteran]

It amazes me that so many people on this board have friends that are Carowhina fans. I guess if you live in NC it's inevitable, but for the rest of us it's pretty near unfathomable.

Yeah, what are you gonna do. When I worked at Duke Hospital, and at the Duke Cardiac Research Institute, I was STILL heavily outnumbered by the blue that must not be named.

In all honesty, most Carolina fans a pretty good people. It's more the endemic "machinery" that gets on my nerves.

[DukieInKansas]

I always enjoy finding out I'm a rich northerner when I see reports about Duke. :D I'm not, and never have been, rich in material goods but the family wasn't on the low end economically either. (Definitely rich in the things that count - I have/had a wonderful family and childhood.)

I came to Duke from Texas - but lived in the following locations and in this order: New Jersey, Pittsburgh PA, Kansas, Georgia, Japan, Republic of Korea, Texas, and back to Kansas while in college. Does that make me a northerner?

I'm going to have to watch it again - I didn't notice the music so much. I did see more coverage of Carolina than Duke in the piece.

[loran16]

So apparently i was seen in the walk up line asleep in a chair during the Special last night.

lol.

[dukegirlinsc]

My dad made me aware of this documentary, and of course I watched immediately, and headed here to make sure everyone was aware of its presence.

I enjoyed it. A lot. Especially since the majority of it took place before my time. (I'm a mere 25 years old;) )

And I feel like a moron, but I had no idea Seth Davis was a Dukie. I always knew he was my favorite for a reason. :)


"There are only two people that wear that shade of blue, girls and babies, which one are you?

[TheBrianZoubekExperience]

Overall I thought it was fairly well done. There were a few things I didn't really think were fair.

The part about how every Duke tenter has their parents paying 40K. I received no financial aid from my parents while at Duke.

The Maryland guy. I have no idea why he was in the video and why they had him wearing Tar Heel blue. Does he have any affiliation with Carolina? Why is he relevant? I also thought generally they could have had a better balance of Duke fans in the interviews other than players.

I thought they barely mentioned the 2001 championship and the Dougherty years.

They had a quote from Jordan about how Duke has no success in the NBA. That not really accurate at least now.

But overall I thought it was pretty interesting and fairly well done.

[throatybeard]

I finally saw it, and I really wish I had that hour back.

Will Blythe is a completely unscrupulous sower of discord. I'm probably in the 99th percentile of Duke fans with respect to how much I like MJ, and this documentary did a lot to undermine my good will towards him.

There were a very few bright spots. One, obviously, was Sumner. Another was the shout-out to Everett Case and context of how southern basketball wasn't really all that, culturally, before him. (Although, they distorted the 50s at Duke. They made it sound like the Harold Bradley teams sucked and that Bubas invented Duke basketball. I'm not sure if I even heard Eddie Cameron's name in reference to him rather than our gym). They also came up with some footage you rarely see, the overhead camera after the Laettner shot, for example, a couple of angles you rarely see in footage from Carmichael, footage of Duke fans inside Cameron after the 1991 title.

More to the larger point, I don't know why these things need to be made at all. Make a documentary about UNC BB or Duke BB, fine, whatever. But a documentary about a rivalry as nasty as this one is just an excuse to display the worse parts of human nature. (And a platform for people like Will Blythe and the guy with the bushy white beard to display same). Hatred should not be glorified. Even worse, perhaps, they co-opted the Eve Carson murder (with no mention of the Duke victim, Mahato, of course, since he's not a pretty White girl) in a tacked-on, syrupey coda that completely exaggerates the amount of good will between the two schools. That does a disservice to the memory of both Carson and Mahato. Hell, with the editorial slant, I'm surprised they didn't come out with a Lax segment that tried to make us look bad.

Also, anything I see or read something like this, it makes me very grateful that I no longer live in North Carolina. The rivalry is a sickness, and it's wonderful to be able to mostly get away from it.

When this gets sold on DVD, I hope that no Duke fans dignify it with their time or money.

[upstateny]

Eve was a Morehead Scholar and the student body president, it's possible that the publicity regarding her murder had something to do with that (in the same way that anything involving Coach K may get more notice than coaches of less prominent sports). No reason to demean Eve, especially today.

[Duvall]

Eve was a Morehead Scholar and the student body president, it's possible that the publicity regarding her murder had something to do with that (in the same way that anything involving Coach K may get more notice than coaches of less prominent sports).

Also, she was a pretty white girl. It's just the way the media works.


No reason to demean Eve, especially today.

This in no way reflects poorly on Ms. Carson. It's the press that demeans themselves on a regular basis.

[RelativeWays]

If your university has a med and law school, chances are high that its populated with kids from rich, wealthy, perhaps snobby families. People are quick to point that out about Duke but seem to forget that about UNC when it runs counter to their assertion.
UNC is a well known and esteemed school, its the oldest public university in the country, one of the original eight public ivy's, it ranks in the top 10 in research in business degrees, its library is second in size to only the library of congress, so on and so forth. Saying UNC is an okay school is a disingenuous argument.

So whats my point in bringing all that up? I'm certainly not a UNC grad so I have no stake in their academic reputation. But this may bring a bit of perspective to one of the sources of the rivalry: things that are alike repel each other. In my home town of Greensboro NC, the biggest high school rivalry (and it is SERIOUS business) is the Grimsley/Page rivalry, which comes to a head annually in November when they play each other in football. Though the demographics may have changed now, Page and Grimsley have historically pooled their students from the richest, whitest neighborhoods in Greensboro. Page did have a larger black population than Grimsley, but for the most part, the student body was pretty identical. And these kids hated each other, the hatred fueled by the belief that the snobs at the other school had the audacity to think they were better and the others. Truth is, there is no "other side of the tracks" here, they're both on the rich side of town. As a farther contrast, the poorer schools, Dudley and Smith, hated both Page and Grimsley and saw them as different sides of the same coin. To me, objectively the Duke/UNC rivalry is the same thing. As much as UNC would LOVE to assert that they're the blue collar salt of the earth everyman standing up to the snobbish elitists, anyone who takes a closer look at UNC would see the only people they are fooling peddling that BS is themselves.

[upstateny]

Also, she was a pretty white girl. It's just the way the media works.



This in no way reflects poorly on Ms. Carson. It's the press that demeans themselves on a regular basis.

The media recognized more than her appearance, I wish you and the original post had too in the way this story was covered but we can agree to disagree on that.

I actually agree on the criticism of how this event was used in the HBO program. The program on the Ohio State-Michigan football rivalry used Schembechler's death prior to the 2006 game in a similar way, it's almost as if they were trying to stick with the same formula.

[throatybeard]

If your university has a med and law school, chances are high that its populated with kids from rich, wealthy, perhaps snobby families. People are quick to point that out about Duke but seem to forget that about UNC when it runs counter to their assertion.
UNC is a well known and esteemed school, its the oldest public university in the country, one of the original eight public ivy's, it ranks in the top 10 in research in business degrees, its library is second in size to only the library of congress, so on and so forth. Saying UNC is an okay school is a disingenuous argument.

So whats my point in bringing all that up? I'm certainly not a UNC grad so I have no stake in their academic reputation. But this may bring a bit of perspective to one of the sources of the rivalry: things that are alike repel each other. In my home town of Greensboro NC, the biggest high school rivalry (and it is SERIOUS business) is the Grimsley/Page rivalry, which comes to a head annually in November when they play each other in football. Though the demographics may have changed now, Page and Grimsley have historically pooled their students from the richest, whitest neighborhoods in Greensboro. Page did have a larger black population than Grimsley, but for the most part, the student body was pretty identical. And these kids hated each other, the hatred fueled by the belief that the snobs at the other school had the audacity to think they were better and the others. Truth is, there is no "other side of the tracks" here, they're both on the rich side of town. As a farther contrast, the poorer schools, Dudley and Smith, hated both Page and Grimsley and saw them as different sides of the same coin. To me, objectively the Duke/UNC rivalry is the same thing. As much as UNC would LOVE to assert that they're the blue collar salt of the earth everyman standing up to the snobbish elitists, anyone who takes a closer look at UNC would see the only people they are fooling peddling that BS is themselves.

Exactly.

This is really my fundamental quarrel with UNC; they want to play the class conflict both ways.

On the school axis, they simultaneously consider us the wealthy interloping rectumheads, and State the retarded hicks who can't go to college.* UNC, of course, is made up of the salt of the earth compared to Duke, and the elite compared to State.

On the locale axis, they're all snob, of course. Chapel Hill is the single most beautiful place on earth and Duke is in Cracktown where you can't even go during the day without getting pistol-whipped. Chapel Hill has long since lost its counterculture flavor and has turned into a boutique enclave for the well-off. Mainstream [predominantly White middle-class] views of towns, cities, neighborhoods are wrapped up in all sorts of ideology about class and ethnicity. The prevalent UNC attitude that Durham is a craphole demonstrates which side of populism most UNC folks are really, truly on.

The whole thing is so twisted and hypocritical it's hard to even bend one's mind around it. In other places, Mississippi for example, it is the landgrant institution that has the moniker of "the People's University." The utter disingenuous of Carolina wanting to simultaneously be elite an populist is stunning.

The saddest part is a lot of our fans and alumni, having no other ground to stand on (since we can't really write a script about Duke being populist), actually embrace the snob role. "You think we're snobs; well up yours, we really are better than you." I think, since we're trapped in this dysfunctional marriage, the way we should really play it is that of the underdog. We're the plucky little school that competes with your state-supported behemoth, with many fewer athletic scholarships.

God, I hate college rivalries.

* - (Unfortunately, a lot of Duke people have similar views of State. And Durham).

[RepoMan]

"You think we're snobs; well up yours, we really are better than you."

Bunch of plain belly sneetches

[alteran]

Exactly.

This is really my fundamental quarrel with UNC; they want to play the class conflict both ways.

On the school axis, they simultaneously consider us the wealthy interloping rectumheads, and State the retarded hicks who can't go to college.* UNC, of course, is made up of the salt of the earth compared to Duke, and the elite compared to State.

On the locale axis, they're all snob, of course. Chapel Hill is the single most beautiful place on earth and Duke is in Cracktown where you can't even go during the day without getting pistol-whipped. Chapel Hill has long since lost its counterculture flavor and has turned into a boutique enclave for the well-off. Mainstream [predominantly White middle-class] views of towns, cities, neighborhoods are wrapped up in all sorts of ideology about class and ethnicity. The prevalent UNC attitude that Durham is a craphole demonstrates which side of populism most UNC folks are really, truly on.

The whole thing is so twisted and hypocritical it's hard to even bend one's mind around it. In other places, Mississippi for example, it is the landgrant institution that has the moniker of "the People's University." The utter disingenuous of Carolina wanting to simultaneously be elite an populist is stunning.

The saddest part is a lot of our fans and alumni, having no other ground to stand on (since we can't really write a script about Duke being populist), actually embrace the snob role. "You think we're snobs; well up yours, we really are better than you." I think, since we're trapped in this dysfunctional marriage, the way we should really play it is that of the underdog. We're the plucky little school that competes with your state-supported behemoth, with many fewer athletic scholarships.

God, I hate college rivalries.

* - (Unfortunately, a lot of Duke people have similar views of State. And Durham).

QFT.

You are my freakin' hero, man. Not just for figuring all this stuff and writing it down, but for being angry about it.

I had to grow up here having this stuff shoved down my throat for 40+ years, and still haven't managed to nail it this thoroughly.

[OldSchool]

Mainstream [predominantly White middle-class] views of towns, cities, neighborhoods are wrapped up in all sorts of ideology about class and ethnicity. The prevalent UNC attitude that Durham is a craphole demonstrates which side of populism most UNC folks are really, truly on.

Oh, please. Durham has a serious crime problem and a race relations problem. To pretend that that reality is nothing more than a "predominantly white middle-class view" reflecting "ideology about class and ethnicity" is nonsense.

And yes, I've lived in Durham, off off-campus and not merely in student-dominated apartment complexes. And I was also (one of many) victims of crime in Durham.

[houstondukie]

Exactly.

This is really my fundamental quarrel with UNC; they want to play the class conflict both ways.

On the school axis, they simultaneously consider us the wealthy interloping rectumheads, and State the retarded hicks who can't go to college.* UNC, of course, is made up of the salt of the earth compared to Duke, and the elite compared to State.

On the locale axis, they're all snob, of course. Chapel Hill is the single most beautiful place on earth and Duke is in Cracktown where you can't even go during the day without getting pistol-whipped. Chapel Hill has long since lost its counterculture flavor and has turned into a boutique enclave for the well-off. Mainstream [predominantly White middle-class] views of towns, cities, neighborhoods are wrapped up in all sorts of ideology about class and ethnicity. The prevalent UNC attitude that Durham is a craphole demonstrates which side of populism most UNC folks are really, truly on.

The whole thing is so twisted and hypocritical it's hard to even bend one's mind around it. In other places, Mississippi for example, it is the landgrant institution that has the moniker of "the People's University." The utter disingenuous of Carolina wanting to simultaneously be elite an populist is stunning.

The saddest part is a lot of our fans and alumni, having no other ground to stand on (since we can't really write a script about Duke being populist), actually embrace the snob role. "You think we're snobs; well up yours, we really are better than you." I think, since we're trapped in this dysfunctional marriage, the way we should really play it is that of the underdog. We're the plucky little school that competes with your state-supported behemoth, with many fewer athletic scholarships.

God, I hate college rivalries.

* - (Unfortunately, a lot of Duke people have similar views of State. And Durham).

Chill out.

To me, the UNC-Duke rivalry represents the best that sport can be. Full of passion, pride, and respect (at the end of the day, as much as both sides "hate" each other, both sides have a great deal of respect for the other side's tradition)

[Duvall]

Chill out.

To me, the UNC-Duke rivalry represents the best that sport can be. Full of passion, pride, and respect (at the end of the day, as much as both sides "hate" each other, both sides have a great deal of respect for the other side's tradition)

Have you actually talked to any Carolina fans lately? They don't respect us and they don't like us. If you're lucky, you'll find one willing to admit that we aren't actually evil. Very lucky.

[houstondukie]

Have you actually talked to any Carolina fans lately? They don't respect us and they don't like us. If you're lucky, you'll find one willing to admit that we aren't actually evil. Very lucky.

Yeah, I guess you're right.

Still, I love this rivalry.

BTW, is there any way a non-HBO subscriber can watch the documentary? Download? Rent? Pay-per-view?

[365Duke]

that nobody has commented on how they COMPLETELY brushed over the following statement...

"in the wake of recruiting violations, and a point shaving scandal...Frank Mcguire was replaced in 1961, by 30 year old assistant Dean Smith."

[Aziggazoomba]

Two points - The doc did point out that Duke was an elite school full of smart students. It never mentioned anything about UNC's academics, the students seem to think its a great school but from an outsider perspective its just ok. There are many better state schools. I'm not saying its Middle Valley Central State Basket Weaving, but its just a decent state school, most state's have one. It's not Michigan, UVA, or Cal Berkley. I'm not sure if its even as good as UCLA. It certainly isn't top 20 as some poster alleged.

Second Point - I have loved ones and friends that went there, and despite there feelings I still believe they went to a second rate university simply for the fact that its UNC and UNC sucks.

I would like to thank you (on behalf of Tar Heels everywhere) for demonstrating so clearly why Duke folks (some, anyway) are so worthy of the most virulent scorn imaginable (an especially nice reminder just before a basketball rematch). Your pompousness is magnificent, and your timing, divine. Thank you. THANK YOU.

[alteran]

I would like to thank you (on behalf of Tar Heels everywhere) for demonstrating so clearly why Duke folks (some, anyway) are so worthy of the most virulent scorn imaginable (an especially nice reminder just before a basketball rematch). Your pompousness is magnificent, and your timing, divine. Thank you. THANK YOU.

Likewise, I'm sure.

The "most virulent scorn imaginable" because of one quote from one person, which was refuted by a Duke fan.

Nice.

Truly... you are a Heel for All Seasons.

[Wander]

Eve was the student body president

No kidding. Every high school and college student should be required to take a logic class before graduating and have the correlation-causation fallacy drilled into their heads repeatedly.

[Spret42]

God, I hate college rivalries.


I have to admit feeling the same way. The older I get the less I enjoy sports. All I can seem to enjoy anymore is the game in between the lines. The rest of it I have to try and ignore.

I am too young to feel so much like an old fart about things.

[Bostondevil]

What I thought was the strangest and most biased thing about it, honestly, was the music. The score clearly was meant to provide a heroic small-town backdrop for UNC and a darker backdrop for Duke. It was obvious, really kind of weird, and off-putting even for a Carolina boy.

OK, but I thought is was the pictures trying to show how Coach K looks like a rat. That was really unnecessary and quite unfair. True I hate Dean Smith and I think he's one of the ugliest men on the face of the planet but I wouldn't have wanted a Duke fan pointing that out on this show.

OK, so who was that self-righteous prep school looking (word I can't say on DBR) they kept interviewing? And what right did he have to be included? He's the exact kind of Carolina fan I cannot stand with his blow dried hair and his attitude. In breaking Hansfrodo's nose, G. Henderson became one of my all time favorite Devils. Of course Hansborough shouldn't have been in the game at that point, especially since he was too fatigued to get out of the way.

They spoke to more Carolina fans than Duke fans, that's for sure. Where was Julio? Or Boswell? Or Ozzie or throaty for that matter? Or Crazy Towel Guy?

[Aziggazoomba]

No kidding. Every high school and college student should be required to take a logic class before graduating and have the correlation-causation fallacy drilled into their heads repeatedly.

Yes, an understanding of logical fallacies is a good thing.

So is careful reading. See, e.g., "(some, anyway)."

[Biscuit]

Have you actually talked to any Carolina fans lately? They don't respect us and they don't like us. If you're lucky, you'll find one willing to admit that we aren't actually evil. Very lucky.

I'm a UNC fan and I'm here almost every day and almost always friendly. I respect the Duke program, and have many good friends who graduated from Duke. Sure, I hate some of the players and members of the coaching staff, and you might consider that hate irrational, but I can provide a reasonable justification for that hatred in every case. And what's more, I can give you a long list of the Duke players I've respected and admired as well, with the exception of their choice of program. And if I do think Coach K is evil, well, that's just because I think everyone who hosts fundraisers for conservative Republican senators is evil ;)

There's lots of UNC fans like me. I'd even say we're the majority. If you go to IC and poke around of course you'll find a lot of hate, just like you find here. But it seems like every month someone does a list of "least hated" Dukies, too- which can really be translated to begrudging admiration. And there's plenty of it.

So, I guess I agree with the guy who said "lighten up." Savor the rivalry, don't let it consume your enjoyment of the sport.

Hope your guys are healthy for the game.

[Wander]

Yes, an understanding of logical fallacies is a good thing.

So is careful reading. See, e.g., "(some, anyway)."

I honestly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

[Bostondevil]

Maybe they weren't exaggerating that plot line about wealthy elitists vs. the salt of the earth after all! ;)

Try getting into UNC as an out of stater, it's probably easier to get into Duke. The next time I meet a UNC grad I could legitimately describe as salt of the earth? I'll let you know. Hasn't happened yet.

And don't get me started on UNC's instate tuition imbalance. It's monumentally unfair to NC high schoolers. The cheapest tuition is the school that is the most selective so the folks that can't get into UNC and go to other state school subsidize those that do. That's gross. Maybe it's changed, I certainly hope so, because it's a terrible policy. UNC-Asheville? There's some salt of the earth for you.

I'm a Durham native who worked three jobs while at Duke to help pay my way. I even tutored some UNC students. I'm sick of the unchallenged portrayal of Duke students as Northern prep school trust fund babies.

[Bostondevil]

That really is what I hate most about the rivalry, the portrayal of Duke students. We didn't actually ask for all the attention and it was Dick Vitale that started calling us the Crazies. We love our team just like anybody else. We've got obnoxious fans and real sweethearts, just like anybody else. Our team wins more than it loses and that makes me happy, but truly, current and former students plus Duke fans in general, are not legitimate targets for the anti-Duke media frenzy and lord knows we don't get a voice in the debate. Except here.

[Aziggazoomba]

I honestly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.


Sorry I wasn't clear.

If you go back to my original post, I said something to the effect of Duke folks (some, anyway) being worthy of scorn. One other guy said my statement was a logical fallacy, because I was painting the entire Duke fanbase with a broad brush, based on a particularly [insert your own negative adjective here---I don't want to further offend] posting by one Duke person. The guy said that all high school and college students should learn the basics of logic.

I replied that logic is good, but one should also read carefully. When I used the words "some, anyway" (in parentheses), that negated the logical fallacy, because I was expressly acknowledging that not all Duke people are that way.

I know the guy who was ragging on UNC (the guy I quoted originally) is not representative of the entire Duke fanbase. I know and respect tons of Duke folks---some are really good friends. It's a terrific school. Something all North Carolinians should be proud of. (It's just not necessarily all that and a bag of chips, when compared to UNC, which, sorry, really isn't the second rate institution that was suggested.)

In all sincerity----looking forward to Sunday; it should be another great one.

[Duvall]

Try getting into UNC as an out of stater, it's probably easier to get into Duke. The next time I meet a UNC grad I could legitimately describe as salt of the earth? I'll let you know. Hasn't happened yet.

Too right. The myth of The University of The People lasts about 30 seconds into attending your first game at the Student Activities Center. The Duke/UNC divide isn't between wealthy elitists and the salt of the earth; it's between upper middle class kids from North Carolina and upper middle class kids from other eastern and southeastern states. Your Tripps vs. your Chets, as it were.


And don't get me started on UNC's instate tuition imbalance. It's monumentally unfair to NC high schoolers. The cheapest tuition is the school that is the most selective so the folks that can't get into UNC and go to other state school subsidize those that do. That's gross. Maybe it's changed, I certainly hope so, because it's a terrible policy. UNC-Asheville? There's some salt of the earth for you.

So the different state universities charge different rates for instate tuition, and UNC is the lowest? That's insane.

And of course the most selective school is going to draw disproportionately from the better funded schools in the wealthier neighborhoods. Great plan. Then again, I guess it doesn't matter as long as *The* University of The People is taken of; the other state school apparently don't warrant consideration.

[Wander]

The guy said that all high school and college students should learn the basics of logic.

Actually, I said that. And I said it to point out that not mentioning the fact that Carson was the student president in the media coverage debate is completely illogical. It's also incredibly dishonest and just plain stupid. This is getting into PPB stuff, so I'll stop there. It was never in response to your argument with that other poster.

I would think that this position would be more understandable from a UNC point of view!

(besides, I agree with you on your point, so I'd have no reason to call you out about it)

[RelativeWays]

We should also take note to point that the advent of the internet and messageboards has been a detriment to sports fans everywhere. I think itsmade people more cynical, jaded, paranoid and just more stupid in general. This place may have its episodes but for the most part Duke fans here can't insult UNC or any other school here the way Duke is disparaged on IC without getting banned, or at least having the post removed.

Biscuit, I've "poked around" IC, as you suggested, and its not a place I'd recommend any outsider to visit. I usually leave there fairly angry and befuddled by the stupidity of humanity (to be fair, I think TDD is just as bad). I really wish you UNC fans had a place like this where you could discuss things with some intelligence. Wheat and you seem like nice guys and able to discuss things in a reasonable manner without referring to those disinters as "queers" or "nazis" or any other gamut of childish insults. It would be great to see UNC fans actually discuss notions like "Duke gets all the calls" despite actual stats showing UNC has a higher for/against foul ratio and gets to the line more than any other ACC team this season. If you want to discuss flops and questionable calls that have benefitted Duke, fine, I'm game, as long as you can admit to the same things that UNC has gotten away with.:D
I think what disappoints me most, is just a general lack of perspective from both fan bases. You think UNC and Duke fans would at least share a common understanding on what its like to have an iconic coach thats scrutinized and derided at every turn by their detractors. Me personally, I have a lot more respect for Dean Smith now than I did in the late 80's early 90's because K is in the exact same position. That doesn't mean I agree with everything he did, and I certainly don't expect UNC fans to fully sympathize with K, but I hope for at least an appreciation. Everything Coach K is criticized and accused of now, was thrown at Dean in his day.
I'm not saying I dislike all UNC fans, in fact the ones I know in person, I get along with great, they seem pretty reasonable and can discuss things objectively. I am also aware of the internet user formula (person + anonymity + internet + audience = a**hole) will probably never disappear but I can certainly hope that things might improve. I certainly hope that a girl getting shot in the middle of the street is never ever used as a sticking point for which team of kids can throw a damn ball through a hoop versus the group of kids down the street. That BS about the ribbons and the Duke coaching staff last year made me wish for an asteroid to hit the earth and wipe everyone out. It was beyond pathetic. *gets off soapbox*

[throatybeard]

Let's see, I've been called "incredibly dishonest and just plain stupid." I'm glad the level of discourse in this thread is remaining high.

Let me see if I can make this clearer, starting by repeating what I said:


Even worse, perhaps, they co-opted the Eve Carson murder (with no mention of the Duke victim, Mahato, of course, since he's not a pretty White girl) in a tacked-on, syrupey coda that completely exaggerates the amount of good will between the two schools. That does a disservice to the memory of both Carson and Mahato.

What I said does not demean Eve Carson in the least. Everyone's perfectly aware that she was a Morehead and Student Prez, so I didn't see how it needed to be repeated, and in fact, last March, the blogs and comment sections were afire with [latently sexist] posts that essentially contrasted her pulchritude with her scholarly prowess, as if the two were somehow to be expected to be mutually exclusive. What I said does demean the media treatment of the case.

I am asserting that the HBO documentary does a disservice to her memory by co-opting this horrible murder for saccharine narrative purposes. After 58 minutes of demonstrating in gory detail how much hatred there is between the two schools, the documentary appropriates her death, at the end of the documentary, as a narrative device to exaggerate the degree of good will between the two schools. The documentary capitalizes on (a) playing up stereotypes of both schools and (b) on presenting intentional and accidental violence on the court (1961, 1989, 1992, 2007) in a glorified fashion.

Then, someone--the same [alleged] perpetrator who murdered Abhijit Mahato--commits a fatal act of violence on this young woman. And the HBO take on this is that, aw, see, here at the end of the documentary, everybody can get together and hold hands and wear ribbons, see, common humanity. La. And they make no mention of Mahato, even though the link between the murders was known just five days after the game in question (http://www.salem-news.com/articles/march132008/duke_murder_031308.php). It's not as though there's no way the documentary folks couldn't have known this while researching for the film.

Let me put this as clearly as I can. Eve Carson's murder has nothing to do with college basketball. Not one thing. It is purely coincidental that it occurred so close to the 2008 Durham game. Given the timing and the publicity, basic decency required that Duke do something at the game. This does not mean that there's abundant mutual respect in the sports rivalry. It does not serve to overturn the previous 58 minutes of the documentary. HBO appropriated her murder and our wearing some ribbons and presented those things in a treacly coda to the documentary. In so doing, they commit a disservice to the memory of the young woman. They're offering a coda to the documentary along the lines of "isn't it grand that this senseless murder ties these enemies together. Aw shucks happy ending. Cats and dogs holding hands." Frankly, it's an offensive for the director/writers to do.

Now, to the second issue. The HBO documentary has the benefit of time passing and the link between the two murders becoming clear. But no mention of Mahato was made in the documentary. None. Same perpetrator. (Alleged, alleged, I know, due process, but the story shaped up in an awfully damning-looking fashion). Mahato, as a foreign national, couldn't possibly be worth mentioning even though the same perpetrator offed him? He's a graduate student, so he's made it through another round or two of academic selectivity--it's not as though he's way less academically accomplished than she is. (To have achieved that, he did have the advantage of being older, of course). But he's not a photogenic blonde co-ed. To deny that the media does not privilege certain stories involving damsels in distress over others is to ignore the way things work in the real world. Heck, Natalee Holloway got an awful lot more attention than Carson? Why? The story lent itself to exploitation even more expansively.

Race and gender have a huge interaction with both cases. In fact, the Mahato murder was just over a week before the UNC game. Why didn't UNC have a big ole moment of silence for him at the Chapel Hill game? (I'm not saying that they should be faulted, becuase they're caught up in the way things work). Because there wasn't nearly the degree of media attention to his murder as there was to hers. Heck, I wouldn't fault Roy Williams or the UNC AD or anyone over there for not even know Mahato had been murdered.

Eve Carson was an accomplished student and young leader. But her murder would have attracted nearly as much attention [at least locally] even if she had the same appearance with a shorter resume, as long as she was a middle class kid. Yellow hair, white skin, youth and two X chromosomes will get you some attention from the media if something bad happens to you. And Mahato's death became far, far better known precisely because he had the <sarcasm> good fortune </sarcasm> to be murdered by the same guy as Carson.

The discrepancy cannot simply be attributed to her being a Morehead student or Student Prez. Yes, that's a prominent role in a certain circle, undergrads. But how many Duke people over 25 can name Duke's current student president? You'd have to be a daily reader of the Chronicle, or it would have to be your kid or one of their best friends. It's a fine accomplishment. But it doesn't explain the extent of the media attention.

[bjornolf]

I have a stupid question. I always thought that Tobacco Road included Wake and State. Is that not true? When I saw the title, I thought that the Battle for Tobacco Road was going to be about the four teams, not just Duke and Carolina.

I just thought it was kind of harsh to refer to Tobacco Road and leave half the teams involved out of the documentary.

[davekay1971]

Buy a copy of Al Featherston's absolutely WONDERFUL book: "Tobacco Road: Duke, Carolina, NC State, Wake Forest, and the History of the Most Intense Backyard Rivalries in Sports".

As for the HBO Mockumentary, it was pretty limp stuff. Some basics of the history, a bunch of soundbytes from a bunch of people with varying degrees of expertise (or complete lack thereof), and a bunch of dramatic license. There was a definite UNC=good; Duke=evil bias, complete with good ol Bo Jones babbling like a brook. And what was some Twerp halfwit doing in there at all? A piece on the Duke-UNC rivalry, and you get a Twerp basically showing up to say "Hey, we hate Duke, too! We're their rivals, too!" As Gary marches his troops off to the NIT...again. It's too bad such a rich sports subject was given such amateurish treatment.

[bjornolf]

Like I said, I just didn't like that they called it "Battle for Tobacco Road" and then ignored Wake and State completely.

[oso diablo]

Like I said, I just didn't like that they called it "Battle for Tobacco Road" and then ignored Wake and State completely.
well, there was more game footage of David Thompson than of Art Heyman. And more game footage of Tom Burleson than of Shane Battier, Jason Williams, and Shelden Williams combined.

(i saw it on youtube)

[Rudy]

The discrepancy cannot simply be attributed to her being a Morehead student or Student Prez. Yes, that's a prominent role in a certain circle, undergrads. But how many Duke people over 25 can name Duke's current student president? You'd have to be a daily reader of the Chronicle, or it would have to be your kid or one of their best friends. It's a fine accomplishment. But it doesn't explain the extent of the media attention.

In my view you overemphasize the racial aspect and underemphasize the leadership role she played on the UNC campus. Carson's death simply impacted the UNC campus and student body more than Mahato's death did at Duke. I understand how Mahato's friends and family might feel his life and death were undervalued at Duke and in the whole area. His death was certainly a huge loss to them. But more people knew Carson; she was more important to the UNC community than Mahato was to Duke's and not because she was a pretty white girl. IIRC, the UNC players wore EC patches on their uniforms during the tournaments. At the ACC tournament that year thousands of UNC fans had black lapel stickers with white EC letters on them.

Your emphasis on the racial difference is grinding an axe that has been ground plenty around Duke for a few years now.

[Magnolia888]

I finally got around to watching this off my TiVo and agree with most of the comments here.

I was disappointed that the viewpoint was overwhelmingly from UNC people, and that Duke was portrayed as the "villain" because its students are nerdy rich kids from NJ. Every UNC grad that I know grew up in a wealthier family than I did, so I always have to laugh at that "class" distinction BS.

Never mind that NC is the most represented state among Duke students, and CA, FL and TX are usually far more represented than NJ. And of course, let's forget that almost half of Duke students are on financial aid. No, of course that can't be true because ALL of those kids in tents are from the northeast and their parents are paying $40K! I know that's true because one of the UNC fans told me so. :rolleyes:

And what about all those kids from NY/NJ that Frank Maguire brought down to play at UNC? They are from the northeast. How come they aren't evil nasty outsiders? Oh, right, because they are wearing light blue. And practically every other UNC player featured who wasn't named Michael Jordan was from somewhere other than NC.

The annoying MD fan had no business being there at all. His only purpose was to say "Duke students are dorks." Thanks for the insight. Yeah, MD fans are the epitome of class and sophistication with their ever present "F you" cheers. :rolleyes:

On the positive side, JJ looked good. :) And his story was funny. That was the way to demonstrate how Duke fans can feel outnumbered, even on their own campus.

Eric Montross also looked good, which I admit only grudgingly. :p

[namvet1965]

Don't really understand why such obsessive, intensive hatred of UNC here and same on part of UNC fans towards Duke. I am old enough toremember NCSU when they were King of the hill and they did not engender the depth of visceral emotion Duke/ Carolina do. They will be back! Too much fan support for them not to do so---and Money! UNC is much like Duke--in some ways like an Eastern school, rather than a Southern one, like, for ex. UGA. UTN, or UAlabama. If Duke was a truly NC school I could perhaps understand this, but since not so many NC kuds go there why is the hatred so intense. Seems that it is there even immediately after they enroll in school. Anyway it is not classy,to always gratuitously put GTHC in posts every time they are submitted. Please give me sincerely unemotional ,reasoned answer.

Thanks!

BTW, have met many Duke alumni, fans who are not so declasse. Believe me, in Vietnam we could not have cared about such stuff!

[moonpie23]

cause they earn it...

[RelativeWays]

Likes repel. You have one group of historically white afluent snobby kids who take umbrage that that they might not be as elite as the same afluent historically white snobby kids down the road.

[jv001]

Don't really understand why such obsessive, intensive hatred of UNC here and same on part of UNC fans towards Duke. I am old enough toremember NCSU when they were King of the hill and they did not engender the depth of visceral emotion Duke/ Carolina do. They will be back! Too much fan support for them not to do so---and Money! UNC is much like Duke--in some ways like an Eastern school, rather than a Southern one, like, for ex. UGA. UTN, or UAlabama. If Duke was a truly NC school I could perhaps understand this, but since not so many NC kuds go there why is the hatred so intense. Seems that it is there even immediately after they enroll in school. Anyway it is not classy,to always gratuitously put GTHC in posts every time they are submitted. Please give me sincerely unemotional ,reasoned answer.

Thanks!

BTW, have met many Duke alumni, fans who are not so declasse. Believe me, in Vietnam we could not have cared about such stuff!
I believe Duke fans let the unc fans get under their skin. Most of the tarheel fans that I know have a rub it in your face attitude when they win. But if they are not winning I never hear from them. At our church most of the members are unc fans and even they have that same attitude. The other day at our bus meeting a unc fan came in and the forst thing out of his mouth was; when does Duke play again? I know there are plenty of Duke fans that are the same way. So I guess that we just let the other teams fans rile us up so much that we just plain don't like each other. Now the unc fans that post here are not like that. It seems that the maryland fans are ok also. I don't hate unc, but I find it very hard to root for them when I know if they win, I'll never hear the end of it. Go Duke!

[cspan37421]

I question your assumptions.

Duke is not truly a NC school? Last I checked, they hadn't moved it. If you mean not part of the state university system, OK, but that's "not truly a UNC school" - a charge to which we plead guilty.

"not so many NC kuds [sic] go there" ? IIRC, something like 15% of the undergraduate population is from NC, more than from any other state. It's a school with a national reputation for academic excellence. What % of the student body do you think SHOULD be from NC?

Not everybody uses GTHC, and most that do, do so lightheartedly (when I was there, it was a marquee on the buses between east and west on days we played UNC). In my experience very few from the Duke side truly hate UNC. They're just a sports rival, not much more to the "hatred."

[alteran]

Don't really understand why such obsessive, intensive hatred of UNC here and same on part of UNC fans towards Duke. I am old enough toremember NCSU when they were King of the hill and they did not engender the depth of visceral emotion Duke/ Carolina do. They will be back! Too much fan support for them not to do so---and Money! UNC is much like Duke--in some ways like an Eastern school, rather than a Southern one, like, for ex. UGA. UTN, or UAlabama. If Duke was a truly NC school I could perhaps understand this, but since not so many NC kuds go there why is the hatred so intense. Seems that it is there even immediately after they enroll in school. Anyway it is not classy,to always gratuitously put GTHC in posts every time they are submitted. Please give me sincerely unemotional ,reasoned answer.

Thanks!

BTW, have met many Duke alumni, fans who are not so declasse. Believe me, in Vietnam we could not have cared about such stuff!

Well, compare it to a war and obviously the animosity looks silly. But so does the Yankees/Red Sox, or any other rivalry.

I think what happened with Duke/UNC is a Hatfield/McCoy kind of thing where nobody knows who fired the first shot and the resentments just build. Throw in the point-blank proximity, a little class warfare fueled by the local media which mostly graduated from UNC, and continued excellence at the premiere sport for both universities, and you've got the makings of a pretty heated rivalry and even hard feelings.

The "go to hell" thing is an institution by now. In it's time it was pretty over-the-top, but nowadays it's pretty tame compared to what gets yelled routinely at Duke players.

Does that answer your question?

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Don't really understand why such obsessive, intensive hatred of UNC here and same on part of UNC fans towards Duke.
Anyway it is not classy,to always gratuitously put GTHC in posts every time they are submitted.
I, sir, most respectfully, but vehemently, disagree with your position on this matter.

Why?
1) Because we can.
2) Because it is so darn much fun to do it!

[allenmurray]

I question your assumptions.

Duke is not truly a NC school? Last I checked, they hadn't moved it. If you mean not part of the state university system, OK, but that's "not truly a UNC school" - a charge to which we plead guilty.

"not so many NC kuds [sic] go there" ? IIRC, something like 15% of the undergraduate population is from NC, more than from any other state. It's a school with a national reputation for academic excellence. What % of the student body do you think SHOULD be from NC?

Not everybody uses GTHC, and most that do, do so lightheartedly (when I was there, it was a marquee on the buses between east and west on days we played UNC). In my experience very few from the Duke side truly hate UNC. They're just a sports rival, not much more to the "hatred."


Well it is clearly not a NC school in the way that UNC or NCSU are. Not only is it not part of the state system, but about 15% of the population being from NC means that abut 85% are not - pretty much the opposite of UNC. But that extends beyond the student body as well - the alumni base is scatterred across the country, rather than being concentrated in NC.

Yes, it has a national reputation for academic excellence - as opposed to a statewide or regional reputation - because it is not a NC school, but a "national" school. It is neither a good thing or a bad thing that it is not a NC school, but to argue that somehow it is becuase more students come from NC than from other states is a bit silly. It is a private school with students from all over the country and world.

On the other hand, GTHC. Let me repeat GTHC!

[Greg_Newton]

Don't really understand why such obsessive, intensive hatred of UNC here and same on part of UNC fans towards Duke... Anyway it is not classy,to always gratuitously put GTHC in posts every time they are submitted.!

I honestly don't mean this sarcastically, but are you a sports fan? Rivalries are in large part what make college sports interesting, relevant and meaningful. Most of the so-called "hatred" between Duke and Carolina, while passionate, is relatively impersonal and "in good fun", and underscored by a large amount of mutual respect (as much as both sides hate to admit it). Admittedly, certain fans take it too far at times, but in the end it's fun to be part of a longstanding tradition like the Duke-Carolina rivalry, and it's very good for college basketball. A little healthy competition never hurt anybody.

Oh... and GTHC!!!!

[DukePA's Mom]

unc is not important enough to hate.:rolleyes:

[unexpected]

I don't know...for me personally, I feel like most UNC fans are FAR more vitriolic in their hatred.

We make joke about UNC, we may put GTHC in our posts, but we take it in good humor (at least the duke fans that I know). In times of crisis, I'm pretty sure most Duke fans would help UNC fans out in a pinch, like, say a UNC fan's car broke down on the road, a Duke fan would help.

Most UNC fans are the same way, but there's a special 10% that's downright hateful and mean-spirited about the rivalry. I don't mind being passionate, as long as it's taken in good fun. At the end of the day, it's just basketball, and we're all still people- but I've met many UNC fans who see it as a life and death matter.

Of course, I'm biased, but I haven't met a portion of the Duke fanbase that's this vitriolic towards UNC- we may get down and out about a loss, but everything is good-natured and generally respectful.

[SupaDave]

And what's Vietnam got to do with it?

I grew up in Durham - and trust me - Duke is in Durham. Not just that but since everyone seems to always forget the obvious - the school employs about a third of Durham. Let's not forget summer camps and outreach programs.

As a Durmite - Chapel Hill is hated in so many ways. There are those that root for the NC school but many folks from Durham do NOT. UNC pretty much employs ALL of Chapel Hill.

You haven't gone to school (pick one - elementary, middle, high) on the day of Duke-Carolina game IN Durham - it's a totally different way of growing up. You've definitely never been to a bonfire. Just think - most kids in the area have picked a side by the time they are 10.

Yeah - if I was from Vietnam - I probably wouldn't care either.

[bjornolf]

For me personally, it comes from the crap I take every time I wear my Duke stuff out. I've worn my Duke stuff in probably 25 different states from Virginia to California and Maine to Florida, and I've taken crap in 24 of them. And you know what, 90% of those people admit to being Carolina fans. And you know what, 85% of THOSE people have never SET FOOT in the state of North Carolina. They have no relatives or spouses that went to UNC. No kids that WANT to go to Carolina. I've asked them. Most of them say they became Carolina fans because of Jordan AFTER he left UNC. I'm sorry, but that just annoys me.

When I run into Duke fans out and about, 95% of them are alums, students, relatives of alums or students, WANT to go to Duke, worked at Duke, or at least grew up in the area (very small percentage).

I don't really hate UNC, so to speak, those people just annoy the you-know-what out of me.

That is all.

GTHC, GTH.

[Aziggazoomba]

I question your assumptions.

Duke is not truly a NC school? Last I checked, they hadn't moved it.

If Duke is a NC school, someone needs to tell its office of admissions.

Two years ago, I accompanied my daughter to a Duke admissions info session (which was very nicely done, by the way, except for one funny thing I'll spare you), and the message at the outset was very clear. In fact, it opened this way---with the speaker saying emphatically, "Duke is not a southern school. Let me repeat---NOT A SOUTHERN SCHOOL. It may be located in the South, and it may have some students from the South. But is is most definitely NOT a southern school." All the while, pictures were being shown of Yale/New Haven, Brown/Providence, and then of course Duke/Durham (at this point a certain Sesame Street tune came rolling into my head....).

So, the admissions folks were really bending over backwards to put as much distance as possible between Duke and whatever is is about the South that they found to be objectionable.

Just sayin'....

[roywhite]

If Duke is a NC school, someone needs to tell its office of admissions.

Two years ago, I accompanied my daughter to a Duke admissions info session (which was very nicely done, by the way, except for one funny thing I'll spare you), and the message at the outset was very clear. In fact, it opened this way---with the speaker saying emphatically, "Duke is not a southern school. Let me repeat---NOT A SOUTHERN SCHOOL. It may be located in the South, and it may have some students from the South. But is is most definitely NOT a southern school." All the while, pictures were being shown of Yale/New Haven, Brown/Providence, and then of course Duke/Durham (at this point a certain Sesame Street tune came rolling into my head....).

So, the admissions folks were really bending over backwards to put as much distance as possible between Duke and whatever is is about the South that they found to be objectionable.

Just sayin'....

Don't like hearing that story.

Why deny our roots? What would Mr. Duke say?

Of course, two years ago Mr. Nifong was not doing much for the perception of the area.

[DukieInKansas]

If Duke is a NC school, someone needs to tell its office of admissions.

Two years ago, I accompanied my daughter to a Duke admissions info session (which was very nicely done, by the way, except for one funny thing I'll spare you), and the message at the outset was very clear. In fact, it opened this way---with the speaker saying emphatically, "Duke is not a southern school. Let me repeat---NOT A SOUTHERN SCHOOL. It may be located in the South, and it may have some students from the South. But is is most definitely NOT a southern school." All the while, pictures were being shown of Yale/New Haven, Brown/Providence, and then of course Duke/Durham (at this point a certain Sesame Street tune came rolling into my head....).

So, the admissions folks were really bending over backwards to put as much distance as possible between Duke and whatever is is about the South that they found to be objectionable.

Just sayin'....


Great - now I have that song stuck in my head. "Thanks" for the earworm. :eek:

Regarding the "hatred", I think most of it is in good fun. But then, I don't live around a ton of Carolina fans, so I have it easier.

[devildownunder]

If Duke is a NC school, someone needs to tell its office of admissions.

Two years ago, I accompanied my daughter to a Duke admissions info session (which was very nicely done, by the way, except for one funny thing I'll spare you), and the message at the outset was very clear. In fact, it opened this way---with the speaker saying emphatically, "Duke is not a southern school. Let me repeat---NOT A SOUTHERN SCHOOL. It may be located in the South, and it may have some students from the South. But is is most definitely NOT a southern school." All the while, pictures were being shown of Yale/New Haven, Brown/Providence, and then of course Duke/Durham (at this point a certain Sesame Street tune came rolling into my head....).

So, the admissions folks were really bending over backwards to put as much distance as possible between Duke and whatever is is about the South that they found to be objectionable.

Just sayin'....


What is a southern school? I'm serious. I attended Virginia State University (among other places) but that's a black southern school, so I'm pretty sure when this speaker mentioned a "southern school", he had a different tradition in mind from the one at VSU. So what characterizes it?

[Bostondevil]

As a transplanted Southerner exiled to the northeast, Duke claiming to not be a Southern school is because outside of the South, Southerners are considered racist and ignorant. Sorry, but it's true. It used to bother me but I've since learned to take it in stride. I'm serious though, pick up any issue of The Boston Globe and I will find you a slur on Southerners.

Another thing I've learned to take in stride? Tarheels getting up in my face. I can take it in stride because, when it comes down to it, I love Duke more than I hate Carolina. (That said, 9F, 9F, 9F!!!!!!!)

Being both a Dukie and a Southerner, one thing I've learned in life, some prejudices are way more acceptable than others.

[devildownunder]

I didn't think it was that unfair either. The "rat-face" and Maryland guy certainly were a bit excessive. They also seemed to portray Duke as universally hated when UNC isn't exactly "america's team". Outside of fans for both teams the hatred for Duke and UNC isn't that different. We probably get a bit more of it, but not to any n'th degree.




Strongly disagree with this argument. Among neutrals, Duke is far more hated -- and really, that's what we should want. For all the peripheral stuff about class, race, etc., the number 1 reason for real basketball fans to hate your team is when your team is beating theirs. If things keep trending the way they are, we'll be back to the ABC days and that's not good news for us. We need to get ourselves good and hated BY REAL COLLEGE BBALL FANS again. And fast.

[devildownunder]

Jim Lampley certainly came off as a pompous airhead and didn't do much for positive impressions of Carolina grads, too.

I haven't seen this docu either but if this is how Mr Lampley came across, I have to give the producers at least a little credit -- they got that part right.

[Aziggazoomba]

What is a southern school? I'm serious. I attended Virginia State University (among other places) but that's a black southern school, so I'm pretty sure when this speaker mentioned a "southern school", he had a different tradition in mind from the one at VSU. So what characterizes it?

Well, that's a good question. When I heard the admissions spiel, I wasn't entirely sure what point was intended, and assumed it was just another carrot to attract kids from north of the Mason and Dixon's. But maybe BostonDevil's response is on the money.

If that was the intended angle, I would say in reponse that loads of racist/ignorant talk can be heard from northerners (Bostoners, too), while there's plenty of enlightenment to be found on lots of college campuses in the South. UNC, for one. There's ignorance everywhere, and the North hasn't quite cornered the market on virtue.

All of which makes this discussion more appropriate for your other bulletin board, I guess, so I should stop with that.

I hope you guys enjoy pulling for the Wildcats/Spartans/Huskies this weekend.

Go Heels.

[Bostondevil]

If that was the intended angle, I would say in reponse that loads of racist/ignorant talk can be heard from northerners (Bostoners, too), while there's plenty of enlightenment to be found on lots of college campuses in the South. UNC, for one. There's ignorance everywhere, and the North hasn't quite cornered the market on virtue.



Calling all Southerners ignorant and/or racist when you haven't ever even visited the South (sorry, but driving through on your way to Florida doesn't count), is fairly ignorant behavior, I agree. But, just like the myth that Duke gets all the calls, it's a myth that gets perpetuated. Again, some prejudices are acceptable. As long as the Southerner is white, you can kind of get by with calling him whatever you want. As as long as the kid is a Duke student, well, again, you can kind of get by with calling him whatever you want as well. ESPN or HBO certainly isn't going to stop you.

Hey Aziggazoomba, you daughter is looking at Duke? That just seems wrong. (And to be honest, I take whatever you say about the Duke admissions office with a grain of salt, I just bet it wasn't as bad or as constant as you report. Duke might have been trying to stress that kids from all over the country come to Duke, which is true, not just the South. As a student you will be exposed to a wider variety of kids, geographically speaking, at Duke than you will at other Triangle area schools.)

One thing my kids know, if they want to go to UNC, they have to pay for it themselves. ;) I still can't get over your post name though. When I was growing up in Durham, aziggazoomba was what the State fans would say.

[Aziggazoomba]

Hey Aziggazoomba, you daughter is looking at Duke? That just seems wrong. (And to be honest, I take whatever you say about the Duke admissions office with a grain of salt, I just bet it wasn't as bad or as constant as you report. Duke might have been trying to stress that kids from all over the country come to Duke, which is true, not just the South. As a student you will be exposed to a wider variety of kids, geographically speaking, at Duke than you will at other Triangle area schools.)

One thing my kids know, if they want to go to UNC, they have to pay for it themselves. ;) I still can't get over your post name though. When I was growing up in Durham, aziggazoomba was what the State fans would say.

Yep, she looked at Duke. And it would surprise you to know that I was quite even-keeled about it all. (My wife made me.) I pretty much kept my mouth shut throughout the entire process. (again, pretty much.) After all, it's the kid's future, not mine.

I understand your grain of salt, but I pretty much recounted what was said verbatim. I suspect the admissions officer was trying to make the point you suggest---but I think he overcooked it a bit. My wife and I just looked at one another in surprise. And my kid---who really was predisposed to like Duke (probably as a reaction to her upbringing)---just shook her head and chuckled. BUT----I don't want to imply that the admissions office did a bad job--they didn't. It was an excellent presentation overall and was the most polished and impressive of all that we saw (and there were many).

Funny about the screen name. "Aziggazoomba" was an old Carolina fight song (one I understand is shared by Miami of Ohio---not sure who had it first). When I attended Dean Smith's basketball camp many years ago, we were taught the song and sang it on the bus going to and from the gym. Not sure why State folks would say or sing it. (Not sure I wanna know.)

[Bostondevil]

Funny about the screen name. "Aziggazoomba" was an old Carolina fight song (one I understand is shared by Miami of Ohio---not sure who had it first). When I attended Dean Smith's basketball camp many years ago, we were taught the song and sang it on the bus going to and from the gym. Not sure why State folks would say or sing it. (Not sure I wanna know.)

And yet it was the opening credit music used by the NC State weekly football show in the 1970s. Maybe that's why it's not a Carolina fight song anymore.

[Aziggazoomba]

And yet it was the opening credit music used by the NC State weekly football show in the 1970s. Maybe that's why it's not a Carolina fight song anymore.

This is, I realize, of no interest to most Duke folks, but:

1. I was wrong in my reference to Miami of Ohio. It was Bowling Green. And their tune is "Ziggy Zoomba." Mea Culpa.

2. Use of the tune (which is based on a Zulu war chant) at Carolina dates back to at least 1949. It is played from time to time by the Marching Tar Heels. The Clef Hangers (UNC's a cappella group) do a nice rendition of it.

3. Quick research indicates no connection to State. I have to assume theft there. Maybe that's one thing you and I can agree on? ;)

[Bostondevil]

Sure and it is also entirely possible that the tune I'm thinking of and the tune you mean when you say aziggazoomba are two completely different things. But I do remember State fans saying it as well.

Regardless, nothing beats having your school's fight song recorded by Bruce Springsteen.

Personally, I rather like the lyric 'And when I die, I'll be Tarheel dead'.

[Bostondevil]

I also forgot to add earlier that I admire your daughter's intelligence and open-mindedness, hope she gets accepted at Duke. ;)

Where do you live Ziggy? Ok if I call you that? I have a play I wrote being produced in a festival in Salisbury, NC running June 3-6 that you really might enjoy. If you happen to live nearby, check out the 'Six in the City' short play festival at the Lee Street Theater. I've posted about it on the Off Topic Board but I suspect you don't visit over there. I promise, there is nothing mean about the Heels in the play, although they are mentioned.

[Aziggazoomba]

Thanks, but at UNC I never lernt no drama er nuthn, and done et up all my credits with recreation and underwater basket weavin' and such.

But more seriously, thanks for the suggestion. I live in Charlotte, and will look forward to hearing about it. I enjoyed reading about it on the other board. (Actually I'm likely to be out of town in that timeframe---family trip.) Sincere congrats on getting your play in production, and I hope it goes well. (Whether or not it besmirches UNC! Indeed, if I were to write a play and it touched on The Rivalry, I don't think I could resist a cheap shot, to be honest.)

[Bostondevil]

Indeed, if I were to write a play and it touched on The Rivalry, I don't think I could resist a cheap shot, to be honest.

You and every other Tarheel, sigh. ;)

[Jim3k]

Yep, she looked at Duke. And it would surprise you to know that I was quite even-keeled about it all. (My wife made me.) I pretty much kept my mouth shut throughout the entire process. (again, pretty much.) After all, it's the kid's future, not mine.

I understand your grain of salt, but I pretty much recounted what was said verbatim. I suspect the admissions officer was trying to make the point you suggest---but I think he overcooked it a bit. My wife and I just looked at one another in surprise. And my kid---who really was predisposed to like Duke (probably as a reaction to her upbringing)---just shook her head and chuckled. BUT----I don't want to imply that the admissions office did a bad job--they didn't. It was an excellent presentation overall and was the most polished and impressive of all that we saw (and there were many).

As one who is involved in the alumni admissions interviewing program at Duke, I'm a bit surprised by your report. One of the things I've done in that program is attend the Duke admissions dog and pony show out here in California. It's usually done annually in the Bay Area.

I agree with your that what they do is quite professionally done. And I really don't doubt your report. Yet I have not seen what you have described. Quite obviously if Duke is recruiting on the West Coast, issues of travel and culture are raised -- either by applicants/parents or by the admissions officers. It has to be addressed.

What I've seen is a representation that Durham is a pretty nice town which has undergone some significant changes in the past 50 years. They speak in terms of the medical community and college town. Sure, it's in the South, but that is kind of like saying UCLA is in Los Angeles. It is what it is.

OTOH, they present the university as a national university and as a beacon of forward thinking, providing the learning environment of a top five institution. In a sense, that means it isn't a southern university -- e.g., Georgia, Florida, South Carolina or Alabama. Nothing wrong with those universities, but they are not mentioned in the same paragraph as Princeton, Cal Tech, Harvard, MIT, Yale and Stanford. Duke is.

So if someone said Duke wasn't a southern school, they were speaking metaphorically. I'm sure most people outside the South would understand that and further understand the Duke is not a Regional University. And, I'm sure most people from North Carolina would understand as well. There are some schools in the South which are in the top tier educationally, but which do not have a nationwide student base. So what's it all mean? Not much. Just a salesman's way to differentiate where there's not much room for differentiation. It's not a put-down of the South or of southern state universities.

[throatybeard]

There is a great deal of anti-South prejudice at Duke. It sucks, but it's there.

[Bostondevil]

I remember, but it's mostly among the students isn't it? I never got any from the professors.

[DukeCO2009]

I was reading through the chapel hill title thread and noticed one poster who admitted to not "getting" the Duke/ch rivalry. Got me thinking--what we have here really is unique. I know people who are big into OSU/Michigan, Yanks/Sox, etc., but they all agree that this little thing we've got going in central North Carolina is about as intense as it gets. If you were born or raised in the state, you know what I'm talking about: the rivalry is inescapable.

Use this thread to talk about being the only Duke fan in your fifth grade class, the time you tried to light your best friend's 1993 championship shirt on fire (true story--I was seven), or calling in sick to work because you couldn't bear to deal with the sheep fans after a Duke loss. I think these could get pretty funny and will, if nothing else, certainly help pass the time while we wait on news from Wall/G/Bledsoe. I'm going to grab a bite to eat and then post a few of my own later on this afternoon.

[PSurprise]

It is a bit odd in my family because I am one of those who have married into the dark side. I grew up in a Duke family (with both parents attending Duke) and a brother that went to Wake. So I've hated UNC from the get-go...And I still cannot understand my wife's family. They root for Duke any other time except when they play UNC.. 10 years after we met, my wife still asks if I root for UNC on certain occassions, such as when they are in the national championship game. And she still gets upset at me when I tell her that No, I have and will never root for UNC.
Thankfully, she is not a sports fan, so this usually doesn't come up except in March/April. And just as she cannot understand how I can not root for UNC, I still remain perplexed that her and her family can root for both schools.

I think the biggest thing for me though is my best friend, who grew up as a total Duke fan, failed to get in, and then attended UNC. He tore all of his Duke things down and put up the pasty blue posters in there place. I still blame him to this day for throwing away his allegiances. I would like to think that if I was forced to go to UNC (which he wasn't), I would be the only student there with a Duke shirt on...

I like being a Duke fan because it is so easy to take the high road when there are so many UNC fans that like to shove it in our faces if Duke doesn't meet expectations. I like to have a quiet confidence. I always feel better any day when Carolina loses. And, I can always remind myself that we won something like 9 out of 10 rivalry games when I was at Duke, and a national championship my junior year. Not too shabby...

[missfinch]

Living out of state, I don't run into too many people with true ties to either Duke or UNC. Most of the Carolina fans are just band-wagoners and Duke haters which is bad enough. It seems, though, that any time I run into someone who actually went to Carolina and didn't get into Duke, they always make a big deal of saying, "Oh, I'm sooo glad now that I didn't get in." Yeah, right.

[Matches]

Living out of state, I don't run into too many people with true ties to either Duke or UNC. Most of the Carolina fans are just band-wagoners and Duke haters which is bad enough. It seems, though, that any time I run into someone who actually went to Carolina and didn't get into Duke, they always make a big deal of saying, "Oh, I'm sooo glad now that I didn't get in." Yeah, right.

Anyone ever heard of a Duke grad talking about how happy there are that they didn't get in UNC?

Anyone ever heard of a Duke grad who was rejected from UNC?

Are those... crickets I hear?

[DukeCO2009]

This has nothing to do with the HBO special, but thanks for moving my thread anyway... :rolleyes:

[cbnaylor]

Does anybody know if this will ever be released on dvd?

[Master Shake]

Does anybody know if this will ever be released on dvd?
Dunno, but if they do, all copies should be sent to Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog.

[SFDukie]

Two points - The doc did point out that Duke was an elite school full of smart students. It never mentioned anything about UNC's academics, the students seem to think its a great school but from an outsider perspective its just ok. There are many better state schools. I'm not saying its Middle Valley Central State Basket Weaving, but its just a decent state school, most state's have one. It's not Michigan, UVA, or Cal Berkley. I'm not sure if its even as good as UCLA. It certainly isn't top 20 as some poster alleged.

Second Point - I have loved ones and friends that went there, and despite there feelings I still believe they went to a second rate university simply for the fact that its UNC and UNC sucks.

I'm a Dukie through and through-and feel a great loyalty to a school which supported me through 3 degrees.

Having said that, you're selling UNC short. It IS the equivalent of Michigan, Cal, and UVa. It's more prestigious, overall, than UCLA by a long shot.

USNWR rankings are bogus (they shift year to year-sometimes by quite a bit-WashU was ranked #1 by them not too long ago-now it's #12? I'd say the truth has been somewhere in between...), but the first state school in their rankings is Cal, at #21, UCLA and UVa at #24 (really, UCLA above Michigan?-I disagree), Michigan #27, UNC #28.

No other public schools in their top 30.

Best Colleges: Top Public Schools: National Universities

Rank
University of California--Berkeley Berkeley, CA 1
University of California--Los Angeles Los Angeles, CA 2
University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 2
University of Michigan--Ann Arbor Ann Arbor, MI 4
University of North Carolina--Chapel Hill Chapel Hill, NC 5





It was the first state university to open its doors.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-universities-rankings

[Don Juan]

I found a couple of very interesting posts about Krzyzewskiville here http://sportsbore.com/college-basketball/nerd-heaven-krzyzewskiville and here http://sportsbore.com/college-basketball/krzyzewskiville-revisited.

Thanks to K-Ville founder Kim Reed for changing their minds... Duke Basketball Rules!!!

[YourLandlord]

USNWR rankings are bogus (they shift year to year-sometimes by quite a bit-WashU was ranked #1 by them not too long ago-now it's #12? I'd say the truth has been somewhere in between...)

this is false.

[SFDukie]

this is false.
Yep, I stand corrected-looks as if the highest they've been ranked is #9. Or I'm confabulating their med school school ranking of #2 in 2003.

My point was that USNWR rigs their rankings so that they change annually.

and my point re UNC was that they're in the top tier of state universities. Doesn't mean one can't despise their hoopsters with a passion.

[dynastydefender]

I think the Kansas-Missouri "Border War" is the greatest rivalry in college sports because it transcends just basketball. Then of course the UK-Louisville Rivalry at #2. The not-a-close third would be the Duke-UNC Rivalry. Intresting that HBO would make a documentary of Duke and UNC.

[DevilHorns]

I think the Kansas-Missouri "Border War" is the greatest rivalry in college sports because it transcends just basketball. Then of course the UK-Louisville Rivalry at #2. The not-a-close third would be the Duke-UNC Rivalry. Intresting that HBO would make a documentary of Duke and UNC.

The thing is, over the course of the last 20 years, Duke and UNC have almost always been top-15 teams in the nation throughout the regular season when they face off. Thats not true for Kansas-Missouri and not true for UK-Louisville. That adds to the whole nation being drawn to this rivalry. Everyone has their opinion based upon where they live, and im sure I wont change yours.

[moonpie23]

I think the Kansas-Missouri "Border War" is the greatest rivalry in college sports because it transcends just basketball. Then of course the UK-Louisville Rivalry at #2. The not-a-close third would be the Duke-UNC Rivalry. Intresting that HBO would make a documentary of Duke and UNC.

i'm not buying this.....ESPN, SI, and just about every other sports publication/media outlet reflects (by way of their tested demographic) which rivalries are most important.

check the coverage on DUKE /UNC game WEEK......much less on game DAY.
i don't think i can remember when i've seen sports networks basically rotate the entire DAY around the KANSAS / Missouri game......in terms of public perception, i doubt it's in the top ten of college sports rivalries...

do they move the start time of the "border war" to accommodate the west coast viewing audience?






you don't think HBO just flipped a coin do you?

[slower]

I think the Kansas-Missouri "Border War" is the greatest rivalry in college sports because it transcends just basketball. Then of course the UK-Louisville Rivalry at #2. The not-a-close third would be the Duke-UNC Rivalry. Intresting that HBO would make a documentary of Duke and UNC.

Yes, and interesting that HBO would NOT make a documentary of UK-Louisville or (are you kidding?) Kansas-Missouri.

We anxiously await your next troll. Sorry, maybe I'm being too harsh on you, but you're either trolling or just woefully misinformed.

[moonpie23]

back and forth winning of national titles is what makes the Duke/Unc the best rivalry. the pendulum doesn't just swing and stop.


between duke and unc there are 7 national titles..


i just don't see that between uk and looievile

[Cameron]

UK and Louisville do have nine national titles between them, but, as you allude to, moonpie, only two between them over the past 24 or so years. And both belong to Kentucky. Louisville hasn't won a title since 1986 (that one does hurt, though), and the bulk of UK's came during the Adolf Rupp era.

Duke and North Carolina have combined for six national championships and 15 Final Fours since 1991. Kentucky and Louisville over that same time frame? Two national titles (both UK's) and five Final Fours (four of which are UK's), with only one coming in the last 11 years between the two Commonwealth schools.

And I don't think I even have to address KU-Mizzou. While that's an intense rivalry, certainly, it is only significant in that region. Duke-Carolina transcends all regions, conferences and fan bases. It has become the nation's rivalry.