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houstondukie
04-05-2007, 12:33 PM
Anyone else amazed like I am at how well Matta has recruited during his short time at Ohio State? The 2008 class might be even better than Oden and company. Also, has anyone noticed/mentioned that Florida's repeat was at the hands of the "Thad five" just like Duke's repeat was at the hands of the "Fab Five"? Thought it was a cool coincidence and I apologize if already talked about.

2006:
***** Greg Oden
***** Daequan Cook
***** Mike Conley
**** David Lighty
**** Othello Hunter

2007:
***** Kosta Koufos
**** Jon Diebler
**** Evan Turner
**** Dallas Lauderdale
**** Eric Wallace

2008:
***** BJ Mullens
***** Anthony Crater
***** William Buford
***** Luke Babbitt
**** Walter Offutt

Patrick Yates
04-05-2007, 03:21 PM
Anyone else amazed like I am at how well Matta has recruited during his short time at Ohio State? The 2008 class might be even better than Oden and company. Also, has anyone noticed/mentioned that Florida's repeat was at the hands of the "Thad five" just like Duke's repeat was at the hands of the "Fab Five"? Thought it was a cool coincidence and I apologize if already talked about.

2006:
***** Greg Oden
***** Daequan Cook
***** Mike Conley
**** David Lighty
**** Othello Hunter

2007:
***** Kosta Koufos
**** Jon Diebler
**** Evan Turner
**** Dallas Lauderdale
**** Eric Wallace

2008:
***** BJ Mullens
***** Anthony Crater
***** William Buford
***** Luke Babbitt
**** Walter Offutt

I will beleive this when I see the kids on campus, especially the 08 classes. There has got to be a logjam. It is one thing to tell a kid, sure you'll play, you're better than X. But eventurally the kid will see the TV and realize, I can't beat that guy out. There are too many wings coming in unless some attrition occurrs, and particularly in the post where Mullens and Koufos are concerned.

I said this on another post, but if this recruiting holds up, Duke's predicted run in 08-09 will never materialize. The team listed above will absolutely destroy teams. They might not be in a game where the margin of victory is under 15. I am not talking about the average margin of victory (twenties) but a situation where there smallest margin of victory is greater than 15.

It is wierd getting three classes like this in a row. Part of it is what I call the Flint Effect. This was when MSU made their run a few years ago. It was based on 3-5 rediculous high school recruiting years where Flint, Michigan had several high-major recruits. OSU may be living off solid talent within its borders, but maybe something hinky is going on. You better believe the NCAA is at least passively looking into this. OSU has had problems in this area before. Not saying there is hinkiness, only that it is suspicious. No school, until you go back to UCLA, has had three years of top 2-4 classes like OSU is looking at. Not Duke, KY, UNC, KS, nobody. Strange that it occurrs at a football factory with no real history of NCAA success or media coverage.

Patrick Yates

vango
04-05-2007, 03:40 PM
I will beleive this when I see the kids on campus, especially the 08 classes. There has got to be a logjam. It is one thing to tell a kid, sure you'll play, you're better than X. But eventurally the kid will see the TV and realize, I can't beat that guy out. There are too many wings coming in unless some attrition occurrs, and particularly in the post where Mullens and Koufos are concerned.

I said this on another post, but if this recruiting holds up, Duke's predicted run in 08-09 will never materialize. The team listed above will absolutely destroy teams. They might not be in a game where the margin of victory is under 15. I am not talking about the average margin of victory (twenties) but a situation where there smallest margin of victory is greater than 15.

It is wierd getting three classes like this in a row. Part of it is what I call the Flint Effect. This was when MSU made their run a few years ago. It was based on 3-5 rediculous high school recruiting years where Flint, Michigan had several high-major recruits. OSU may be living off solid talent within its borders, but maybe something hinky is going on. You better believe the NCAA is at least passively looking into this. OSU has had problems in this area before. Not saying there is hinkiness, only that it is suspicious. No school, until you go back to UCLA, has had three years of top 2-4 classes like OSU is looking at. Not Duke, KY, UNC, KS, nobody. Strange that it occurrs at a football factory with no real history of NCAA success or media coverage.

Patrick Yates

I was chatting with a buddy of mine yesterday about Greg Oden - stay or not - and I mentioned these three classes. I think my exact words to him were, "It's really amazing. Especially at a school like OSU. Maybe he's getting kids to stay at home - and there has always been good talent in the area - but to come out of nowhere like this. You almost have to wonder if something is going on." I base this on nothing but the coincidence of things coming together so well for this school as of late - just seems, uh, odd....

Wander
04-05-2007, 03:46 PM
The team listed above will absolutely destroy teams. They might not be in a game where the margin of victory is under 15. I am not talking about the average margin of victory (twenties) but a situation where there smallest margin of victory is greater than 15.


Whoa, chill out there buddy. You're putting way too much stock into recruiting rankings.

With that said, Matta is obviously a great recruiter, and he could be building a really good basketball program at Ohio State.

MrBisonDevil
04-05-2007, 03:48 PM
Edit: Biased opinions. Sorry.

I'm from Ohio, though I with ties to Michigan. The whole Mich-Ohio thing got the best of me. OOPS!!!

houstondukie
04-05-2007, 04:01 PM
Most of the 2006 class will be gone by the time that 2008 class comes to Columbus. Oden is gone. Conley Jr. is a borderline lottery pick this year with the great tournament he had, but I think he leaves after next year. Othello Hunter was a JUCO player, and I think only has one more year of eligibility left. Cook didn't do enough this year to be a first rounder but I think he also leaves after a good year next year. After the dust settles, only Lighty may remain. I think that's why Matta was able to get those big time players in 2008. No way they're coming in to backup.

What is most amazing is how quickly he has the guys committed. While most of the class remained unsigned many months ago, Ohio St. had 4 top 20 committments. Don't these guys want to take some visits and see what else is out there? I didn't want to bring up the money conspiracies but something seems odd. I thought Ohio St. was a football school.

MulletMan
04-05-2007, 04:06 PM
My ex-wife was professor at Ohio State. She told me this yesterday: Basically, if a basketball player wants to spend 1-3 years in college, have very little class-work to do and get a lot of TV exposure (at least in the midwest) "Then Come to Ohio State".

She had a similar statement about the OSU football program...

Apparently she wasn't an English professor.

This is why I love the internet... completely baseless and anonymous statements made out to be facts. Stunning.

You guys all know that OSU is one of 5 (IIRC) athletic departments in the country that operate at a profit? Is it possible that OSU looked at schools like Florida and Texas and said, "Hey, I bet if we pour tons of money into recruiting and facilities, we can get the best of the best and build juggernauts under The Sweater Vest and Matta!"?

No... it must be dirty. I mean everyone is dirty... except us.

Objectivity, people. Consider it.

MulletMan
04-05-2007, 04:08 PM
I thought Ohio St. was a football school.

You mean like Texas, Florida, Oklahoma, Michigan State... shall I go on?

Face it folks, we are entering a new era in college athletics. It is the time of the super-university. Big state schools with tons of alums, tons of money, and tons of clout trying to build multiple programs that yield championships, publicity, and dollars.

devilmon
04-05-2007, 04:15 PM
Agreed. Let's be careful with assumptions. Most of the players are Ohioans. If the premier basketball school in the state (now that Cincy is no longer top tier) can keep players in-state, they will have a good chance. IMHO, Matta is simply doing a good job managing the HS relationships in the State. Remember, he had strong relationships with HS coaches through his ties with Xavier.

Just a few points..... Diebler and Koufos will be players. Lauderdale is not as good as his stat sheet. I watched Raymar Morgan (currently with MSU) and team shut him down completely in last year's HS playoffs. I was woefully disappointed in Lauderdale's performance.

FireOgilvie
04-05-2007, 04:18 PM
No... it must be dirty. I mean everyone is dirty... except us.

Objectivity, people. Consider it.

I don't think that anything shady is going on in this situation... but OSU is known for its boosters paying athletes. Ohio State has a LOT of problems with its athletic department.

http://www.fanblogs.com/ohio_state/005147.php

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2005-05-15-ohio-state-payback_x.htm

http://www2.ncaa.org/portal/media_and_events/press_room/2006/march/20060310_osu_infractions_rls.html

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/bigten/2004-11-09-ohiostate-clarett-allegations_x.htm

ohioguy2
04-05-2007, 04:27 PM
We in Ohio have often wondered why OSU basketball could not get in state and neighboring state players to sign on. Every players dream here is to play in the state championship games. The facility is great, people support a winning team--now that OSU is getting the best in state players, the other pieces are falling into place. I have seen some of these people--they are very good.

Wander
04-05-2007, 04:33 PM
You mean like Texas, Florida, Oklahoma, Michigan State... shall I go on?

Face it folks, we are entering a new era in college athletics. It is the time of the super-university. Big state schools with tons of alums, tons of money, and tons of clout trying to build multiple programs that yield championships, publicity, and dollars.

What evidence do you have that we are entering the "time of the super-university"?

Sure, this year we had Florida/Ohio State in both sports - but I wouldn't go jumping the gun on that, that's just one example in one year.

By the way, I definately appreciate your objectivity and calling people out on their BS of "everyone sucks but Duke."

vango
04-05-2007, 04:34 PM
I'm neither making assumptions nor indicting anyone. From what I see Matta and OSU are stand up. Not a thing I know of to suggest otherwise. My point above is that it is unusual for a school to come from near nowhere to garner three classes like that (and it is a given that nobody knows how good these classes really are - plenty of discussions on this board about the innacuracies of judging H.S. talent). One would be remiss not to note the unusualness of a school to take in that talent (annointed) in this day when the schools b-ball program has hardly sniffed the Final 4 since Bobby Knight played there.

I'm not suggesting something is wrong there - just that it is unusual. For all I know a "good" unusual (if you're an OSU fan). I yield to the probability that Matta is just a great recruiter, OSU is what it is, and there is really great talent in Ohio and environs. Until and unless something comes up - I'm simply impressed and surprised at this point.

madscavenger
04-05-2007, 05:12 PM
Is he Dick Motta's son (honestly don't follow Ohio St. hoops that close, but obvious question, isn't it)? Dick knew his X's & O's. Doubt his son would be dirty, but even Wooden couldn't stop "outsiders" from corrupting players - most people don't know about that dirty not so little UCLA secret.

oregon98er
04-05-2007, 05:25 PM
What evidence do you have that we are entering the "time of the super-university"?

Sure, this year we had Florida/Ohio State in both sports - but I wouldn't go jumping the gun on that, that's just one example in one year.



$$$$$. That's the proof.

Alabama
Saban (football) is making > $4 million.

Florida
Donovan (bball) is making ~ $2 million...and on the way up
Meyer (football) is making > $2 million...and o

Tennessee
Fulmer (football) is making > $2 million
Summit (bball) is making > $1.5 million.
Pearl (bball) is making ~$1 million

UNC
Davis (football) is making ~ $2 million
Ol Roy (bball) is pushing $2 million
Hatchell is around $1 million

Texas
Brown (football) > $1.5 million
Barnes (bball) ~$1.5 million
Coach G ~ $1 million

the list goes on and on. Ohio St., Michigan, USC, etc. The money involved in pro sports is drving it. Alabama had to pay Saban that money to pull him from the Dolphins. And the boosters will gladly pay it.

And don't get started on facilities...which are paltry at best at Duke when compared to these other facilities. The facilities at UNC-football are considered some of the BEST in the country. And they won 2 games!

It's big time. If you don't have the money, it's not going to last. The days are gone for "football school" vs. "basketball school". The money is there to have both.

Classof06
04-05-2007, 06:29 PM
Agreed. Let's be careful with assumptions. Most of the players are Ohioans. If the premier basketball school in the state (now that Cincy is no longer top tier) can keep players in-state, they will have a good chance. IMHO, Matta is simply doing a good job managing the HS relationships in the State. Remember, he had strong relationships with HS coaches through his ties with Xavier.

Just a few points..... Diebler and Koufos will be players. Lauderdale is not as good as his stat sheet. I watched Raymar Morgan (currently with MSU) and team shut him down completely in last year's HS playoffs. I was woefully disappointed in Lauderdale's performance.


I agree. Being an Ohioan, I just think it's about time Ohio State started getting a piece of the abundant in-state talent and Matta is responsible. He'd doing a good job and that's that. The point about relationships with in-state HS coaches is a good one because he was at Xavier before OSU, so he's been in the state for a long time now. People also need to realize that Ohio State just came off of NCAA sanctions which restricted the number of scholarships for a the past few years due to the Jim O' Brien scandal. Thus, they have a lot more scholarships than they've had in the past, as evidenced by the deep recruiting classes in '06, '07, and '08.

Koufos and Diebler are as good as advertised, with Diebler passing LeBron for #1 all time in career points for Ohio HS Boys basksetball earlier this year (averaged 42 ppg...yes, 42). If you saw the McD's AA game, you saw Koufos and his play speaks for itself. Lauderdale is very overrated and will surely be asked to redshirt if Oden stays. He didn't do much in HS except rebound and dunk and he ALWAYS disappears against every other premier player he plays. If anyone remembers, Lauderdale played Zoubek last year and Zoubek had 29 while Lauderdale had 4. The game with Raymar Morgan was in last year's playoffs, and Morgan had 44 while Lauderdale had 7 if I'm not mistaken. Koufos' team knocked Lauderdale out of the state playoffs a month ago as well.

Susan
04-05-2007, 06:42 PM
Is he Dick Motta's son (honestly don't follow Ohio St. hoops that close, but obvious question, isn't it)?

Thad Matta.... Dick Motta

thus I assume they are not related

Uncle Drew
04-05-2007, 08:01 PM
HBO Sports had an episode on athletics vs. academics across the country that covered graduation rates, the actual classes these guys are taking etc. Ohio State (And next to Duke they are my favorite school.) let players take classes like "Flower Arangement" to stay in school. And they and many other schools strongly urged their professors to give athletes passing grades to stay on the field / court. Most everyone considers Miami, FSU etc to be lax on graduating players and actually making them learn something. But the way that episode made it sound Ohio State is as bad if not worse than the other schools we all consider to be a sham.
I'm no fan of Bob Costas (sp?) but he asked the NCAA president how many players in the two major college sports could actually get into their prospective schools if it weren't for athletics. Myles Brand of course said most could. But I seriously doubt without lowering academic standards if many of the players (even at Duke) could attend their prospective university.

Wander
04-05-2007, 09:25 PM
$$$$$. That's the proof.

It's big time. If you don't have the money, it's not going to last. The days are gone for "football school" vs. "basketball school". The money is there to have both.

I know that's what Florida, Ohio State, Michigan State, etc are TRYING to do, but where's the evidence that it's going to work? There will be some schools good in both (Florida, Ohio State), some basketball schools (Duke, UConn), some football schools (Florida State, Auburn), and some that really aren't good at either (Ole Miss, Colorado). I don't see how the basketball/football only schools are going to be eliminated.

Michigan State and UNC are basketball schools right now, even though they're putting significant cash into their football programs. But this idea that you need to be a "superprogram" in order to do well in either sport is nonsense. Look at all these recent final four teams: Georgetown, UCLA, George Mason, Illinois, Michigan State, UNC, Duke, UConn, etc. I know there are a ton of schools attempting to get first-rate football/basketball programs but I've yet to see any evidence whatsoever that you're going to need to be successful in one in order to be successful in the other (there was a terrible Pat Forde article trying to claim that recently though).

madscavenger
04-06-2007, 12:46 AM
Thad Matta.... Dick Motta

thus I assume they are not related

That'll teach me to speed through a thread. Good catch. The UCLA stuff remains disturbing to me, but noone ever talks about it cause of Wooden's halo. Wonder if he would be immune in today's ascerbic environment?

phaedrus
04-06-2007, 02:52 AM
No school, until you go back to UCLA, has had three years of top 2-4 classes like OSU is looking at. Not Duke, KY, UNC, KS, nobody. Strange that it occurrs at a football factory with no real history of NCAA success or media coverage.

Patrick Yates

depends who you ask, i guess - scout.com class rankings:

2005

1. kansas
2. duke
3. ok state
4. unc

2006

1. unc
2. ohio st
3. texas
4. duke

2007

1. kansas st
2. purdue
3. duke
4. purdue

not to say that scout.com is right, or even close.

Buckeye Devil
04-07-2007, 11:07 AM
Why is it so surprising that Matta is having such great recruiting success?

Think about Matta's success for just a moment: 26 wins at Butler in his year there, an average of 26 wins per year in three years at Xavier including one game where X should have beat Duke to get to the Final 4 in 2004, 81-22 in three years at OSU with back to back Big 10 titles and a trip to the National Championship game. Plus he did give the "Thad 5" the chance to back out of their committments to OSU if they were slapped with a post-season ban this year.

OSU fans were told under the Jim O'Brien era that the Buckeyes could not get great talent for various reasons. That was and is wrong. All of the elements are there for a successful basketball program which Matta said and knew when he came. OSU has a great facility and is a great state for players.

Now, the coach is in place to capitalize on the opportunities, which he is evidently doing. With the past infractions and the Maurice Clarett football situation, I don't think that OSU is taking any chances on doing anything stupid right now as suggested on this board.

Patrick Yates
04-07-2007, 02:04 PM
I doubt the university or staff would know about any cheating. Usually it is obsessed alumni that take care of such things without the coaches knowledge (wink, wink).

That said, OSU could be taking advantage of the upswing in their football progam, which raises the profile among all athletes, becuase OSU football is like ACC basketball is in NC, EVERYBODY watches.

Matta seems like a good guy, and the facilities are good.

Getting three top notch classes could happen, I guess.

But OSU might be getting the No 1 or 2 class for three straight years. At a school with no real media profile or tradition, it begs the question why. K and Roy can't do this, and they are among the best recruiters anywhere at schools where the B-Ballers are living gods on campus. At OSU the quaterback question is more important than the Conference Hoops Tourney.

I was not accusing OSU of anything. I simply said that it was a little squirlly.

Patrick Yates

FireOgilvie
04-07-2007, 02:11 PM
2007

1. kansas st
2. purdue
3. duke
4. purdue




I'm really impressed with Purdue's ability to get two top 4 recruiting classes in the same year!!!!!111one

I think that it isn't just the rankings aspect of OSU's recruiting classes that is so impressive... but the fact that they have so many players in all of those classes. I guess they expect there to be a lot of players leaving for the NBA.

Mike Corey
04-07-2007, 02:30 PM
The situation at Ohio State is understandably suspect, but I'd like to offer that it is a simple matter of luck and causality.

1) Ohio State, under Andy Geiger, decided to do what Geiger had done in his previous position at Stanford: Compete for championships in all sports. To do so, Geiger led a facilities binge that benefitted programs ranging from rifle, to tennis, to basketball. When Matta arrived, then, he inherited exceptional facilities.

2) Matta himself arrived with a pedigree in Indiana and Ohio recruiting circles, in part because he grew up in Hoopeston (sp?), Indiana, and in part because his gigs at Butler and Xavier allowed him to develop relationships with many of the top players in the region well before he arrived in Columbus. It was lucky, then, that when Matta took over at Ohoi State, the quality and quantity of the talent in Ohio and Indiana, in particular, was at an unprecedented level. Matta has capitalized accordingly.

3) Indiana, Purdue and Notre Dame, in particular, do not or did not have stability and/or top-notch recruiters in place when Matta was scouring the area for commitments. Purdue and Indiana have picked it up considerably. Indeed, Indiana capitalized on the influx of commitments Ohio State received (Gordon once favored Ohio State, before the logjam led in part to his initial verbal to Illinois, and later to Indiana).

~

Suspicions about whether or not Ohio State--or rather, its boosters--are engaging in unlawful activity are hard to disspell, particularly since there is a recent history of such shenanigans. However, one hopes that a consideration of the reasons why Ohio State has seen some recruiting success can serve to assuage any suspicions that might otherwise gain more traction.

Buckeye Devil
04-08-2007, 07:31 AM
I agree. Being an Ohioan, I just think it's about time Ohio State started getting a piece of the abundant in-state talent and Matta is responsible. He'd doing a good job and that's that. The point about relationships with in-state HS coaches is a good one because he was at Xavier before OSU, so he's been in the state for a long time now. People also need to realize that Ohio State just came off of NCAA sanctions which restricted the number of scholarships for a the past few years due to the Jim O' Brien scandal. Thus, they have a lot more scholarships than they've had in the past, as evidenced by the deep recruiting classes in '06, '07, and '08.

Koufos and Diebler are as good as advertised, with Diebler passing LeBron for #1 all time in career points for Ohio HS Boys basksetball earlier this year (averaged 42 ppg...yes, 42). If you saw the McD's AA game, you saw Koufos and his play speaks for itself. Lauderdale is very overrated and will surely be asked to redshirt if Oden stays. He didn't do much in HS except rebound and dunk and he ALWAYS disappears against every other premier player he plays. If anyone remembers, Lauderdale played Zoubek last year and Zoubek had 29 while Lauderdale had 4. The game with Raymar Morgan was in last year's playoffs, and Morgan had 44 while Lauderdale had 7 if I'm not mistaken. Koufos' team knocked Lauderdale out of the state playoffs a month ago as well.

Lebron James was not the Ohio High School career scoring leader prior to Jon Diebler who played at Upper Sandusky High School.

Jay Burson, who played at New Concord/John Glenn High School held the mark
until Diebler surpassed it this year. Lebron is not even in the top 3 all time in Ohio. Diebler is first followed by Burson who played at Ohio State, and third is Geno Ford from Cambridge High School (my alma mater) who went on to play at Ohio University.

And by the way, Diebler had 48 in the state championship game in division 2 and his team still lost by 2 points. I also think you are right about Lauderdale.