North Carolina 93, NC State 76

[captmojo]

A continuing one day tradition?

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

A continuing one day tradition?

How about a one day TREND?

[devildeac]

A continuing one day tradition?

I like this concept...

[captmojo]

I'll keep it in mind if it continues a successful path!

[tbyers11]

A continuing one day tradition?

If it worked once, you've got to keep on trying:D

[captmojo]

So far it's all tied with 40 mins to go.













Beaker has gotten away with 5 traveling violations so far. :D

[Indoor66]

Is the UNC game to be televised? What time, what channel?

[Acymetric]

Is the UNC game to be televised? What time, what channel?

3:30 on ABC, unless you're in an area that gets the Stanford v. UCLA game, also at 3:30 on ABC. I imagine that would only be for people on the west coast though.

[Indoor66]

3:30 on ABC, unless you're in an area that gets the Stanford v. UCLA game, also at 3:30 on ABC. I imagine that would only be for people on the west coast though.

Thanks. My listing does not give the teams. I imagine I will get the unc game as I am in ACC country in South Florida.

[geraldsneighbor]

Thanks. My listing does not give the teams. I imagine I will get the unc game as I am in ACC country in South Florida.

East of New Mexico get the UNC game.

[Acymetric]

Did one of the announcers just say "[Tyler] plays so dadgum hard" just now? What is he, Roy's brother?

[geraldsneighbor]

Did one of the announcers just say "[Tyler] plays so dadgum hard" just now? What is he, Roy's brother?

Yes, yes he did. I didn't know Tyler plays hard by the way. He plays the game so smooth it looks effortless.

[geraldsneighbor]

Am I nuts by the way for thinking Danny Green will make the best pro out of the Hanstravel, Ellington, and Lawson group?

[Indoor66]

Am I nuts by the way for thinking Danny Green will make the best pro out of the Hanstravel, Ellington, and Lawson group?

Absolutely not. He will be the best of that so so pro prospect group.

[Indoor66]

Jimmy Dykes stinks.

[geraldsneighbor]

Jimmy Dykes stinks.

I hope he wore that ref shirt and hat til the next TV timeout. What a clown.

[freedevil]

The NC State crowd is extremely quiet - and State is definitely in this game. Lame.

[Acymetric]

I hate to be "that guy" but it seems like Carolina is getting an awful lot of calls. They even did bad enough for the announcers to finally admit a mistake may have been made.

[davekay1971]

State making a game of it....

So, I'm happily watching the game, ardently supporting NCSU for the following reasons (in increasing order of importance)

1) Mom went to State...go Mom!
2) I hate Carolina.
3) My wife went to State
4) My wife found a make-your-own-t-shirt website and made me a shirt that is Duke blue and says on front "Carolina Sucks" and the back "Hansbrough Sw****ws"
5) My wife is now wearing a NCSU baseball jersey and pink bunny slippers

[Indoor66]

5) My wife is now wearing a NCSU baseball jersey and pink bunny slippers

Is that all? :p

[davekay1971]

Is that all? :p

That's personal (but...uh...yes. Go State!)

[davekay1971]

Disgusting...

Followed by a Hansbrough 3 step on the other end

[bludvlman]

UNC can't play a lick of D.

[davekay1971]

And their halfcourt O is suspect. If it weren't for run-outs (which they do very, very well) they would be losing this game...

Carolina will play their best D of the year against us. But if we can prevent those run-outs, our half-court D will win the game for us.

[keithg]

NCSt vs them -41% FG
NCSt vs Duke-45% FG

Don't really see the defensive lapse quite the same way.

[davekay1971]

Good foul by Mac...Carolina guy deserved it trying for the look-at-me dunk up 15 with 2 seconds left.

[bludvlman]

While I understand the foul, how did McCauley not get thrown out but Copeland did? Both should have been thrown out.

[dukebsbll14]

There's some of that classy Roy Williams Tar Hole basketball on display there. Ben McCauley (clap, clap, clap-clap-clap!)

[Acymetric]

Rats, sorry I missed whatever happened with that play? I gave up and stopped watching, sounds like a fun sequence.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Thought the general topic of Ole Roy's running up the score deserved a separate thread. In my 30 years as a college basketball fan, I haven't seen any team run fast breaks and take quick 3's up big with the shot clock off as much as I've seen it from Ole Roy's teams the past 3-4 years. If it just happened once or twice, it could be a rogue player, but it happens several times a year.

I say props to State for the hard foul today. No punch, just a hard foul, and a display of pride.

As much as Deano could be generally annoying, he had more class than Ole Roy does. I also can't imagine Deano letting his players to the pre-game dance step either.

[captmojo]

I searched several different retail outlets but alas, was unable to find another exploding penguin. :( I can only blame myself.

God bless Ben McCauley. It was a hard foul but legal and within the context of the play. Stay classy holes. Your time awaits you. Why is Whathisname trying to score a lay-up with that big of a lead and less than 2 seconds left? Why was there not a technical called when he was the player ejected? These are questions that will boggle the mind throughout eternity.

[dukebsbll14]

Ben McCauley! (clap clap clap-clap-clap!)

[bjornolf]

I thought it was a good foul. He even got some ball on the replay. I don't think he should have gotten an intentional, myself. I've gotten fouled harder than that in pickup, and I never came up angry like that.

I also saw the blatant travel on TH with about 2 to go. How do the refs miss that? According to our traveling thread, you don't get a pivot foot if you perform a jumpstop, right? So, when Tyler jumpstopped RIGHT in the middle of the lane, then started pivoting all over the place, isn't that an automatic travel? How hard can THAT be for the refs to see? Hmm... jumpstop... pivot... whistle... travel. Do the refs just not know that rule? Or does it just not appply to TH?

[wolfpackdevil]

Thought the general topic of Ole Roy's running up the score deserved a separate thread. In my 30 years as a college basketball fan, I haven't seen any team run fast breaks and take quick 3's up big with the shot clock off as much as I've seen it from Ole Roy's teams the past 3-4 years. If it just happened once or twice, it could be a rogue player, but it happens several times a year.

I say props to State for the hard foul today. No punch, just a hard foul, and a display of pride.

As much as Deano could be generally annoying, he had more class than Ole Roy does. I also can't imagine Deano letting his players to the pre-game dance step either.


It was horrible to see a veteran like Frasor run a fastbreak with 8 seconds left in a 15 point game, and even worse to see copeland go up for a dunk.

But this was not Roy Williams. If you watched the game, Roy went over to Copeland and started yelling at him while Copleand was being restraind.

And after Copeland got ejected, Williams went over and apoligized to Sid Lowe.

Roy has a lot of class, and he handled the situation very well.


Im glad Ben did what he did, and Im also glad the way roy decided to handle it.

And I guarentee you, Copeland will be running stadium steps when he gets home to Chapel Hill.

[DeepBlue70]

Thought the general topic of Ole Roy's running up the score deserved a separate thread. In my 30 years as a college basketball fan, I haven't seen any team run fast breaks and take quick 3's up big with the shot clock off as much as I've seen it from Ole Roy's teams the past 3-4 years. If it just happened once or twice, it could be a rogue player, but it happens several times a year.

I say props to State for the hard foul today. No punch, just a hard foul, and a display of pride.

As much as Deano could be generally annoying, he had more class than Ole Roy does. I also can't imagine Deano letting his players to the pre-game dance step either.

Well then, what do you call what we did to the Twerps? 60-20 at one point!

[FireOgilvie]

Well then, what do you call what we did to the Twerps? 60-20 at one point!

We put in our deep bench players with NINE minutes to go.

This happens all the time with UNC. You see their little white walk-ons hoisting up 3s with less than 10 seconds to go in blowouts almost every time.

[Acymetric]

I think the appropriate comparison here isn't just running up the score or winning by a large margin, but rather how often does Duke try to score when the shot clock is off up by more than a couple possessions? To be fair, it may not happen all that often for the heels either, but it has clearly happened at least twice now, with similar results each time.

[Sixthman]

It was horrible to see a veteran like Frasor run a fastbreak with 8 seconds left in a 15 point game, and even worse to see copeland go up for a dunk.

But this was not Roy Williams. If you watched the game, Roy went over to Copeland and started yelling at him while Copleand was being restraind.

And after Copeland got ejected, Williams went over and apoligized to Sid Lowe.

Roy has a lot of class, and he handled the situation very well.


Im glad Ben did what he did, and Im also glad the way roy decided to handle it.

And I guarentee you, Copeland will be running stadium steps when he gets home to Chapel Hill.


I think you're making a presumption that may not be accurate. Carolina under Roy Williams ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS has gone for the score with a big lead and the shot clock dead at the end of the game. It is part of Roy's coaching philosophy. He did this at Kansas too. I saw the end of the game and read Roy as very unhappy with Copeland, not for trying to score, but for getting up after the foul and going after McCauly (which is what got Copeland thown out of the game). It is a much different situation, but not altogether unlike the Duke/Carolina game two years ago when Henderson bloodied TH's nose. The game was over, there was practically no time on the clock, Carolina had it's first team in, TH got an offsensive rebound and went up to score instead off kicking it out and killing the clock. Copeland will be running steps, but not for trying to run up the score.

[Oriole Way]

To be fair, Roy and K's philosophies are similar in that walk-ons, freshmen, scrubs, and non-rotation players are expected to give 100% and play hard no matter what the score is. That intensity is expected of the starters all the way down to the last man on the bench, and it's one of the reasons the two programs are so good every year.

As such, I can't fault UNC's or Duke's players for trying to score in garbage time, even up by a huge margin. In some cases, some of the players might be making a case for playing time later on in the season, or for subsequent seasons. Granted, there comes a time when you have to dribble out the clock, and it seems like today's incident was crossing the line, but I don't mind the general approach of UNC's bench players in garbage time.

That said, Frasor, as a veteran who was running the point, should have known better and dribbled out the clock. Definitely an unnecessary and ill-advised decision on his part.

[Bob Green]

If you watched the game, Roy went over to Copeland and started yelling at him while Copleand was being restraind.


Here is a clip of the incident:

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/multi/nc-state-and-unc-double-technical-foul

Roy Williams went over and yelled "Michael" one time and motioned for him to return to the bench. I wouldn't describe the exchange a butt chewing.

[DukeFencer]

According to the recap on CBS Copeland wasn't ejected -- it says they were each assessed a technical and Roy chose to send Copeland to the locker room early.

[Son of Mojo]

Didn't get to watch the game but just watched the play in discussion with the link given. McCauley did kinda give a chop & pull on the hole but, really, you're up by double digits with seconds left. Run the clock out--if you're trying to make that score in that situation then don't blame your opposition with taking offense and maybe giving you a hard foul. Simply put, he got what he deserved for trying to get the FG.

[jv001]

Here is a clip of the incident:

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/multi/nc-state-and-unc-double-technical-foul

Roy Williams went over and yelled "Michael" one time and motioned for him to return to the bench. I wouldn't describe the exchange a butt chewing.

If there was a butt chewing it was in the dressing room not on this clip. I don't agree that Coach K has his guys trying to score with 2 seconds on the clock in a Duke blow out. He has them dribble out the clock. Not ole roy and unc. Run up the score holes..Go Duke!

[SMO]

We put in our deep bench players with NINE minutes to go.

This happens all the time with UNC. You see their little white walk-ons hoisting up 3s with less than 10 seconds to go in blowouts almost every time.

I'm not sure what the race of the walk-ons has to do with this discussion.

[Newton_14]

Thank you Ben. And some here are comparing apples and oranges. In Duke games it does not matter if the starters or walk-ons are in the game, if the shot clock is off and the other team has quit fouling, the ball is dribbled just past midcourt where the player either dribbles out the clock or simply holds the ball until the clock runs out.

Frasor should have held the ball out top and let the clock run out. Instead, like always with Roy's frickin teams, he runs a fast break and tries to set Copeland up for a showtime dunk with 2 seconds left. McCauley showed his pride and gave a hard foul. It was a classless move on the part of Frasor and Copeland.

And for what it;s worth, the exchange between ol Roy and El Sid did not appear to be an apology from ol roy. Did not look like a friendly exchange in my view.

[DukeDevilDeb]

It was horrible to see a veteran like Frasor run a fastbreak with 8 seconds left in a 15 point game, and even worse to see copeland go up for a dunk.

But this was not Roy Williams. If you watched the game, Roy went over to Copeland and started yelling at him while Copleand was being restraind.

And after Copeland got ejected, Williams went over and apoligized to Sid Lowe.

Roy has a lot of class, and he handled the situation very well.


Im glad Ben did what he did, and Im also glad the way roy decided to handle it.

And I guarentee you, Copeland will be running stadium steps when he gets home to Chapel Hill.

Glad you are a wolfpack devil, but you are walking on dangerous ground when you say that RoyBoy has class!

:D

[Duke79UNLV77]

I think you're making a presumption that may not be accurate. Carolina under Roy Williams ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS has gone for the score with a big lead and the shot clock dead at the end of the game.

Bingo! this is not a one- or two-time thing, an accident, or a rogue act by a player. i recall seeing the same thing against FSU, Va Tech, and other teams. i've seen ole roy's teams try to score quickly up big with the shot clock off more than i recall seeing all other acc teams combined do so in my 30 years as a fan.

i admit that i see UNC as a bitter rival, but i had more respect for deano.

[arnie]

Bingo! this is not a one- or two-time thing, an accident, or a rogue act by a player. i recall seeing the same thing against FSU, Va Tech, and other teams. i've seen ole roy's teams try to score quickly up big with the shot clock off more than i recall seeing all other acc teams combined do so in my 30 years as a fan.

i admit that i see UNC as a bitter rival, but i had more respect for deano.

Now, let's not carried away - remember that lardbutt, chain-smoking Deano had Gminski thrown out at the end of the "7-0" game for defending himself against Al Wood. The classless moments by Deano are far too numerous to list.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I'm back from the road for anyone who's missed me.....Bueller? Bueller? :)

I agree with those who lay the "blame" on Frasor. He really didn't need to push it in that situation and could have pulled it out and moved on. He sould have recognized the situation better.

That said...play the game hard and intense 'till the buzzer sounds. Scrubs, starters , everybody. If I'm Copeland coming off the bench and suddenly see a chance to dunk on you no matter what the score, I am going to the rack. And I don't fault the State kid for putting him on his behind, I'd do that too.

Something that drives me nuts about this edition of the Heel's team is they often play to the level of their competition, instead of forcing the competition rise to their level, which can be very high when they want it to be. They did it again in this game. They should have crushed State and intead just cruised along, turning their intensity on and off. On a rivals home court? That's a dangerous habit and a team chemistry issue to me.

It's one thing to stay composed-confident... that's all good. But I want to see that while also maintaining some real intensity from this team before I will really favor them to win a championship.

What I mean is....next time you are standing around talking to a friend, step inside "His" personal space. Just get a little closer than you would normally, right up in his grill and see how he reacts...Wanna bet he gets uncomfortable? When is the last time the Heels made a team uncomfortable? They are winning with size and talent, not intensity. They are playing from their "Heels", reacting to the other team, not forcing the action.

Champions don't do that.

There's still time for my team to learn that lesson.

Wheat/"/"/"

[davekay1971]

There's still time for my team to learn that lesson.

Wheat/"/"/"

This may be wishful thinking on my part, but I'm not sure they are capable of learning that. I recognize that each year brings a chance to increase maturity and learn lessons, but the Tarheels seem to have fallen due to the same faults for the last two years, and this year we're seeing some of those faults.

They, as you noted, don't always play with intensity or urgency, and aren't always able to muster it when needed. They're not tough when they need to be. That's reflected in their defensive lapses. It's reflected in the way they have let certain teams, in certain situations, push them around (Gt 2007, KU 2008, BC, Wake, and FSU this year). When they get smacked in the mouth, they frequently reel rather than stepping forward and punching back.

They seem to play their best when they have clear advantages (ie: they're just a hell of a lot better than the other guy) and/or they can force the game to their own tempo and style. I doubt anyone in the country can run with UNC for 40 minutes. But several teams (BC, Wake, and FSU as we've already seen, and I hope Duke, UConn, Pitt, Oklahoma, and some others) can grind and bang with them just fine.

It seems like a team personality problem more than a "learn to be intense, dammit" problem. I'm not sure if it's reflective of Roy's personality or the players'. Did the 2005 team win with defense and intensity in spite of Roy or because of him? Is this version of the Heels (and by that I mean the Hansbrough/Lawson/Ellington led version, not just 2008-2009) susceptible to a lack of intensity and toughness because of Roy or in spite of him?

A lot of championship teams won because they combined prodigious talent with a nasty streak (Duke 91 and 92, Carolina 82) or at least emotional toughness and maturity (Duke 2001 and Carolina 1993). This Carolina team has talent, but I haven't seen a lot of nastiness or toughness from them...and going on 3 years with the same core of players, I'm not sold that we're going to see it develop in the next 2 months.

[notacolour]

I can't say that I really understand the level of righteous indignation in this thread. It's pretty clear where the players went wrong here:

(1) McCauley should not have fouled so hard. Sure, it happens sometimes when players are playing hard, and of course you'd expect him to foul in that case, but this was clearly a harder foul than it should have been.

(2) Copeland should not have done anything after the foul but get up, shoot McCauley a nasty look and go take his free throws.

[I think that Copeland's violation of (2) was significantly worse than (1) in this game, and definitely deserving of getting sent to the locker room by Williams.]

That Frasor (who only plays 15 minutes a game these days) wanted to push it to Copeland (who almost never plays, and scores even more rarely), who then went in for the basket...

Well, I have trouble getting upset over that.

Of course, Copeland might not have done anything with the ball if they were playing a non-rival. But for a kid from Winston-Salem who never plays to have the chance to score against State...well, who in that situation wouldn't go for it? I would expect it in a Duke-UNC game (with either team winning by a bunch), or any decent rivalry.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I'm not sold that they can learn to be intense either, just hopeful.
My sense is that it is the players combined personalities in play, noteably Lawson, Thompson, Ellington, moreso than the coach. They are just not generally an excitible, intense bunch of guys. And honestly, they have not proven to be the sort of stone cold killers they seem to fancy themselves. I wish they were.
Maybe they can win a big championship game with that attitude, but it seems to me emotion wins the big ones more than a slight talent advantage, (Re: Jimmy V's teams), and I just don't see a championship teams emotion in this team.

My only real criticism of Roy is: Where the heck is the Alley Oop play? All of Dean's teams could sneak one in on you and bring a spark to a team.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

I'm not sold that they can learn to be intense either, just hopeful.
My sense is that it is the players combined personalities in play, noteably Lawson, Thompson, Ellington, moreso than the coach. They are just not generally an excitible, intense bunch of guys. And honestly, they have not proven to be the sort of stone cold killers they seem to fancy themselves. I wish they were.
Maybe they can win a big championship game with that attitude, but it seems to me emotion wins the big ones more than a slight talent advantage, (Re: Jimmy V's teams), and I just don't see a championship teams emotion in this team.

My only real criticism of Roy is: Where the heck is the Alley Oop play? All of Dean's teams could sneak one in on you and bring a spark to a team.

This is a question I've had for a while, maybe you can shed some light. You mention the attitudes of Lawson, etc. push this team to be more low-key, but don't you have a senior superstar that is as intense as anyone in the nation? I've never see UNC take on Tyler's character in the way that, for example, the Bulls took on Jordan's intensity. Is this a matter of Tyler not being comfortable as a "leader"? Is it that there are too many laid back guys for one person, even one as driven as him, to motivate? At times this team looks more Dante Calabria than Tyler Hansbrough.

I've come to think of this laid back attitude as a hallmark of Williams' teams generally, but I really expected this team, hungry to dominate after last season and led by a guy like Hans, to be the exception. Is there something in Roy's style (lots of guys rotating in and out, fast-break O rather than dig-down D, etc.) that makes it harder to be intense all the time? I've wondered about this for a while and I'd be curious to hear your take on this team and Roy's system generally.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

It's important to me for everyone to note that I understand that any perception of the Heels team or any other team or player I make comes strictly from what I see on TV, which is a pretty lame way to judge anything. I don't know these kids or have any inside info....with that said...we are just making harmless ramblings on a message board...

It is odd that the team can't seem to match TH's intensity, but if you watch TH, even tho he always plays hard, he plays quiet. Workmanlike is how I guess he should be described, and now that I think about it, maybe this team does take on his personality and workmanlike is not something that translates well from the post to the wings?
TH's just not a talker or a real emotional player on the floor, there is not that type of player on this team that I see. They will fire up for a play or two, then it's back to the grind it seems.
The big question is whether a team with that makeup can go all the way in such an emotionally charged game as college basketball. I'm not sure.
One other thing, TH not being a primary ballhandler doesen't help him make things happen.

[roywhite]

It's important to me for everyone to note that I understand that any perception of the Heels team or any other team or player I make comes strictly from what I see on TV, which is a pretty lame way to judge anything. I don't know these kids or have any inside info....with that said...we are just making harmless ramblings on a message board...

It is odd that the team can't seem to match TH's intensity, but if you watch TH, even tho he always plays hard, he plays quiet. Workmanlike is how I guess he should be described, and now that I think about it, maybe this team does take on his personality and workmanlike is not something that translates well from the post to the wings?
TH's just not a talker or a real emotional player on the floor, there is not that type of player on this team that I see. They will fire up for a play or two, then it's back to the grind it seems.
The big question is whether a team with that makeup can go all the way in such an emotionally charged game as college basketball. I'm not sure.
One other thing, TH not being a primary ballhandler doesen't help him make things happen.

Enjoy your comments, Wheat; glad you stopped by.

My take on the Tarheel chemistry (also based only on watching games on TV and reading articles and internet posts) is that there is just a little bit of resentment among other players as to how much Hansbrough gets the ball, and the attention.

That, and the fact that Lawson, Green, and Ellington would have preferred to be in the NBA this year.

The Heels are certainly capable of playing together well enough to win any game, and possibly the National Championship. But they are, IMO, not any more of a favorite to go all the way than 5 or 6 other teams. A good team, but not a dominant team.

[RelativeWays]

I wish the words "class" and "thug" were banned from the sport fan's lexicon as they are used with such little regard to consistency, and the classification flip flops entirely based on team loyalty they have pretty much no meaning. In their place, I vote that "hypocrite' is added in their absence.

Copeland going for his dunk at the end of the State game is no more insulting than Steve Johnson's 2 points against hapless UVA when the game was under a minute left. Scrubs don't get to score much so whether its a birthday basket or a dunk against a hated rival, you can't begrudge either for wanting to take their shot. I understand McCauley's frustration but thats a dangerous thing to do. You can foul and prevent a dunk without taking a swipe at the player. Regardless of intent, going down that road leads to disaster, as we know first hand, and it shouldn't be condoned. There's a reason why pride can be dangerous. I thought Roy and Sid did what they could to diffuse the situation and handled it well without it turning ugly. UNC and State players have a long history of truly hating each other.

[jgehtland]

I kinda get it -- "I'm in the game! Maybe I can get in the books!" But Steve Johnson tried to score because the shot clock mandates we run a play with 54 seconds to go. With 1.9 seconds to go, you just pull the ball back. You may recall that 45 seconds after Steve shot his free throw, he got the ball back with a relatively clear path to the basket. He backed up behind the line and passed to Elliot, who dribbled out the clock.

Different coaches have different approaches, I guess, but I'll take the "since I don't have to shoot, I won't" approach any day. I don't think "classless" and "thug" are appropriate descriptions of what Copeland did, but certainly "bad idea" and "sore winner" come to mind.

[captmojo]

I kinda get it -- "I'm in the game! Maybe I can get in the books!" But Steve Johnson tried to score because the shot clock mandates we run a play with 54 seconds to go. With 1.9 seconds to go, you just pull the ball back. You may recall that 45 seconds after Steve shot his free throw, he got the ball back with a relatively clear path to the basket. He backed up behind the line and passed to Elliot, who dribbled out the clock.

Different coaches have different approaches, I guess, but I'll take the "since I don't have to shoot, I won't" approach any day. I don't think "classless" and "thug" are appropriate descriptions of what Copeland did, but certainly "bad idea" and "sore winner" come to mind.

You don't kinda get it. You've got it. It's the shot clock that dictates that a shot must be taken.

[Duke79UNLV77]

From Gamecast, I see that UNC took shots 6 and 12 seconds into the shotclock tonight against Maryland, up big.