MBB: All-ACC 2009

[pamtar]

Talk about some tough decisions. I can name four players on 15-501 that deserve to be on the first team.

Should be a fun discussion, so get to it...:)

[jv001]

Here are my choices:
Singler
Henderson
hans(travel)
lawson(no neck)
Teague

This leaves off several good players. But what can I say? I bleed Royal Blue! Go Duke!

[roywhite]

Not yet halfway in the conference season, so things could change, but here IMO are the leading candidates for 1st Team All-ACC (in no particular order)

Tyrese Rice
Jeff Teague
Gerald Henderson
Kyle Singler
Danny Green
Tyler Hansbrough
Toney Douglas
Jack McClinton

Next group, could possibly play their way in...

Greivis Vasquez
James Johnson
Ty Lawson
Gani Lawal
A.D. Vassallo
Trevor Booker

Some tough choices...

[pamtar]

No Tyrese Rice? He's averaging 18 pts and 6 assists. Ty Lawson is at 16 and 7, rounded nicely.

Trevor Booker is one rebound shy of averaging a double double, and is a point higher than Green in average scoring.

McClinton's stats are barely under Teague's.

It may actually come down to who plays on the better team...

EDIT: I gotta speed up the typing...

[Indoor66]

Not yet halfway in the conference season, so things could change, but here IMO are the leading candidates for 1st Team All-ACC (in no particular order)

Tyrese Rice
Jeff Teague
Gerald Henderson
Kyle Singler
Danny Green
Tyler Hansbrough
Toney Douglas
Jack McClinton

Next group, could possibly play their way in...

Greivis Vasquez
James Johnson
Ty Lawson
Gani Lawal
A.D. Vassallo
Trevor Booker

Some tough choices...

I am not sold on Tyler Hantravel for all ACC this year - at least not 1st team! His perfomance has been spotty. Others on the list, IMO, surpass him.

[sagegrouse]

Three really good players are going to be left off the first team All-ACC:

Henderson - D
Singler - D
Hansbrough - NC
Lawson - NC
Teague - BC
McClintock - M
Toney - FS
Rice - BC

sagegrouse

[blueprofessor]

Three really good players are going to be left off the first team All-ACC:

Henderson - D
Singler - D
Hansbrough - NC
Lawson - NC
Teague - BC
McClintock - M
Toney - FS
Rice - BC

sagegrouse

on a five-man team,but this year we may see a tie vote with 6 players selected because of the number of excellent guards and wings.
Caveat: present trends continue.

So, to solve the space problem, I will name 6 to the first team:
Singler(POY):D
Henderson:D
Hanstravel
Teague
Douglas(DPOY)--who almost single-handedly beat UNC last night ,while dominating the game on both ends, and who unfortunately tried to draw a foul in the last seconds of a tie game on Hanstravel that had as much chance of being called as Aminu's closing foul on Hendo-----a magnificent player and leader.
Lawson

Best regards,
Blueprofessor:):D

[CDu]

Three really good players are going to be left off the first team All-ACC:

Henderson - D
Singler - D
Hansbrough - NC
Lawson - NC
Teague - BC
McClintock - M
Toney - FS
Rice - BC

sagegrouse

It's McClinton, not McClintock.

I think Singler and Hansbrough are givens, and I suspect Teague will be as well. The last two spots are interesting. Henderson is making a strong push right now. If he keeps it up, he'll be there as well. Lawson, Vassallo, McClinton, and Rice can all make a case too. There's a lot of ACC still to play, though.

[gw67]

The end of the ACC regular season is just two weeks away. With the extra teams and the high level play in the conference this year, there are more players deserving of All ACC recognition than in recent years. The following is a listing by team of those who, IMO, are deserving of consideration for a spot on one of the three teams chosen by the ACC sportswriters and sportscasters:

BC – Rice, Trapani
Md – Vasquez
Virginia - Landesberg
Va Tech – Vassallo, Delaney, Allen
Duke – Singler, Henderson
UNC – Hansbrough, Lawson, Green, Ellington
Wake – Teague, Johnson
NC St – Costner
Clemson – Booker, Rivers
Ga Tech – Lawal
Fla St – Douglas
Miami – McClinton

At this point in time, my 1st team would be composed of Hansbrough, Teague, Singler, Booker and Lawson with a host of guards who have outplayed Lawson head-to-head on the second team (Douglas, Rice, McClinton and Vasquez) along with Henderson. If Florida State winds up in 2nd place, then Douglas deserves to be on the 1st team, IMO. If the Devils win out then Henderson joins Singler on 1st team otherwise, only one Duke player deserves to be on the first team and Singler has been the top all around player on Duke since the beginning of the season.

gw67.

[gumbomoop]

gw67's list is excellent, thorough. Since the list numbers 21, one way to look at this would be to eliminate Landesberg (giving him frosh POY, with Ed Davis in 2d), and then divide the remaining 20 into all-ACC teams 1-4. I'll limit myself to just teams 1-3. And while one could almost have at least 4 guards on first team, I'll not go that route.

1st -
Hansbrough
McClinton
Douglas
Lawson
Booker

2d -
Singler
Rice
Teague
Green
Rivers

3d-
Trapani
Delaney
Hendo
Ellington
Johnson

Honestly, my view could substantially change in next 2 weeks, depending on who leads his team upward in the standings. Obviously, for example, Vasquez could jump from just missing to, say, 2d team, if he leads Md to maybe 9-7. Guys could move up or down; and I sure do hope Singler merits 1st team, and Hendo 2d, by what they do in next 2 weeks.

[pamtar]

I"ll stop at the first team. BTW, who decides All-ACC? I'm guessing writers? Whoever it is they have a tough job on their hands!

1st team:

Lawson (No-brainer)
Booker (Over Hansbrough)
Teague (If he plays pre-wake losing streak caliper for the rest of the year)
G (In ACC play he's been our best player. We're No. 2-3 so...)
Douglas (Dont like him much but he's the reason they're not on the bubble.)

Coach OTY - Tough choice between Hamilton and Purnell. Purnell had more to work with so I'll give the nod to Hamilton.

[kinghoops]

The end of the ACC regular season is just two weeks away. With the extra teams and the high level play in the conference this year, there are more players deserving of All ACC recognition than in recent years. The following is a listing by team of those who, IMO, are deserving of consideration for a spot on one of the three teams chosen by the ACC sportswriters and sportscasters:

BC – Rice, Trapani
Md – Vasquez
Virginia - Landesberg
Va Tech – Vassallo, Delaney, Allen
Duke – Singler, Henderson
UNC – Hansbrough, Lawson, Green, Ellington
Wake – Teague, Johnson
NC St – Costner
Clemson – Booker, Rivers
Ga Tech – Lawal
Fla St – Douglas
Miami – McClinton

At this point in time, my 1st team would be composed of Hansbrough, Teague, Singler, Booker and Lawson with a host of guards who have outplayed Lawson head-to-head on the second team (Douglas, Rice, McClinton and Vasquez) along with Henderson. If Florida State winds up in 2nd place, then Douglas deserves to be on the 1st team, IMO. If the Devils win out then Henderson joins Singler on 1st team otherwise, only one Duke player deserves to be on the first team and Singler has been the top all around player on Duke since the beginning of the season.

gw67.

heres my list

1st team
hansbrough
lawson
mcclinton
rice
singler

2nd team
henderson
teague
booker
green
douglas

3rd team
rivers
costner
ellington
vassallo
vasquez

[houstondukie]

There are 11 players who are "LOCKS", imo, to make one of the three All-ACC teams:

UNC: hansbrough, lawson
DUKE: henderson, singler
WAKE: teague
CLEMSON: booker/rivers (at least 1)
FSU: douglas
BOSTON COLLEGE: rice
MARYLAND: vazquez
MIAMI: mcclinton
VA Tech: vassallo

Here how I rank them:

FIRST team:
t. hansbrough (unc)
t. lawson (unc)
j. teague (wake)
g. henderson (duke)
t. rice (bc)

SECOND team:
k. singler (duke)
j. mcclinton (miami)
t. douglas (fsu)
booker/rivers (clemson)
g. vasquez (maryland)

THIRD team:
vassallo (va tech)
?
?
?
?

The remaining 4 players will come from a list including the following:

UNC: ellington, green
DUKE: scheyer
WAKE: johnson, aminu
CLEMSON: booker/rivers, oglesby
VA TECH: delaney, allen
GA TECH: lawal
VIRGINIA: landesberg
BC: trapani
NC STATE: costner

My picks:
green/ellington (unc)
booker/rivers (clemson)
johnson (wake)
lawal (ga tech)

Honorable mention: green/ellington (unc), scheyer (duke), aminu (wake), oglesby (clemson), delaney (va tech), allen (va tech), landesberg (uva), costner (nc state)

[JDev]

I apologize if this has been discussed before. I used the search and did not come up with anything. If it has please move/delete it.

This year seems to be as tough to pick an All ACC first team as it has in many years. I was curious what people thought the ultimate selections would be. Good arguments can be made for Henderson, Hansbrough, Lawson, McClinton, Douglas, Booker, Singler, Rice, Vasquez, Teague, and several others. What five do you think will get the nod? With so many quality players, do you think a team (UNC probably) will get two players on the first team? The ultimate decisions will be made in a few weeks, so it is a reasonable time to start thinking about it.

[nyr484]

Tough to pick just 5... I think the only possibility of 2 players from 1 team would be Lawson and Hansbrough.

Here's my guess at the 1st team:

Lawson
Douglas
Henderson
Booker
Hansbrough


I could definitely see Teague or McClinton get the honor instead of Lawson or Douglas. The ACC is so deep at the guard position. But I think Lawson will probably get the honor since Carolina gets so much more publicity than any other team with the exception of Duke.

[roywhite]

Not yet halfway in the conference season, so things could change, but here IMO are the leading candidates for 1st Team All-ACC (in no particular order)

Tyrese Rice
Jeff Teague
Gerald Henderson
Kyle Singler
Danny Green
Tyler Hansbrough
Toney Douglas
Jack McClinton

Next group, could possibly play their way in...

Greivis Vasquez
James Johnson
Ty Lawson
Gani Lawal
A.D. Vassallo
Trevor Booker

Some tough choices...

I believe this is the earliest thread (this season) about All-ACC speculation.

At this point, I'll say:

Henderson
Ty Lawson
Hansbrough
Teague
Booker

Still in consideration

Tyrese Rice
Greivis Vasquez
Danny Green
Kyle Singler
Toney Douglas
Jack McClinton

[jv001]

Who picks the teams? If it's the media, then hanstravel is a lock no matter how he plays. If not then he may not make first team. My choice have changed since first asked.

Henderson
lawson
McClinton
Teague
Booker

Go Duke!

[BlueintheFace]

I GUARANTEE Douglas will be on the team.

Teague
McClinton
Douglas
Henderson
Hansbrough

Lawson, Rice, and Booker on the outside looking in... but that could change with some games left to play

[VaDukie]

Henderson
Lawson
TH
Rice
Booker

Douglas, Teague, McClintock close behind. Singler is borderline 2nd/3rd IMHO.

Lot's of basketball left to be played and the games in the next couple weeks will be a MAJOR factor in determining these teams.

[MADevil30]

Singler is borderline 2nd/3rd IMHO.

Sadly, I agree. Kyle seems to be fading coming down the stretch. I think Wake was keying on him Sunday, but IIRC he still only had 6 points about half way through the second half while not being really effective on the boards or on D (to be fair, he did turn it around with some points and a big board or two in crunch time).

My picks so far would be:
Lawson
Henderson
Rice
McClinton
Booker

I think Douglas is the hardest guy to leave off that list. Hansbough has games where he's not one of the 3 most effective on his team, let alone in the league.

[pfrduke]

Henderson
Lawson
TH
Rice
Booker

Douglas, Teague, McClintock close behind. Singler is borderline 2nd/3rd IMHO.

Lot's of basketball left to be played and the games in the next couple weeks will be a MAJOR factor in determining these teams.


Sadly, I agree. Kyle seems to be fading coming down the stretch. I think Wake was keying on him Sunday, but IIRC he still only had 6 points about half way through the second half while not being really effective on the boards or on D (to be fair, he did turn it around with some points and a big board or two in crunch time).

My picks so far would be:
Lawson
Henderson
Rice
McClinton
Booker

I think Douglas is the hardest guy to leave off that list. Hansbough has games where he's not one of the 3 most effective on his team, let alone in the league.

Douglas absotively posilutely belongs on the first team. He may be in the conversation for ACC POY. He is the reason FSU is 8-4.

[BlueintheFace]

I can't believe people are leaving Douglas off their lists.

THIS IS INSANE!!! He might win ACC POY if the voting was today!

For further reference on the top 5:

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2008-2009/confonly.html#conf.wki

[JDev]

Hansbrough is a lock due to career achievement (though he is having a deserving year regardless). I just wonder if the voters might shy away from putting two players from one team on the first team, with so many deserving candidates. That may hurt Lawson. Is he a better candidate than McClinton, Rice, Teague, Douglas, or Vasquez? Not all of that group will make it, and the bulk of them got the better of the head-to-head match-ups with Lawson. I think with all the talent, no team will get two first team guys, and Hans will get the nod over Lawson (though Lawson is playing better right now).
I think ultimately it is:

1st Team:
Henderson
Hansbrough
McClinton
Douglas
Teague

2nd Team:
Lawson
Singler
Rice
Booker
Vasquez

* - That second team is as good as the first team on many years, and in most other conferences

[ClosetHurleyFan]

Who picks the teams? If it's the media, then hanstravel is a lock no matter how he plays. If not then he may not make first team. My choice have changed since first asked.

Henderson
lawson
McClinton
Teague
Booker

Go Duke!

you would really put henderson on this team over hansborough? Seriously?

[BlueintheFace]

you would really put henderson on this team over hansborough? Seriously?

Henderson is averaging over 20ppg in the ACC (5th in the conference and more than Hansbrough) He is also 4th in the conference in fg% as a JUMPSHOOTER. Add on 5rb/game, 2 assists/game and 2 steals/ game (3rd in conference)

Hansbrough is 6th in scoring and 3rd in rebounds so he deserves to be there too, but Henderson is not last man in on an All-ACC team.

[pfrduke]

you would really put henderson on this team over hansborough? Seriously?

If you look just at the way each has played in ACC games this year, it's not outlandish. Henderson averages more points (with a slightly lower offensive rating, but a higher usage) and has been a more valuable player to his team. He's also been much more consistent, and plays better defense. Hansbrough's numbers (while still impressive) are down from last year, he's had two games where he's been held to single digits (and another at 11), his shooting has not been as accurate, and he only has 5 double figure rebounding games. I think Douglas and McClinton are no brainer picks above Hansbrough, I think Lawson is more valuable (and more deserving) off his own team, and I think Henderson has had a better conference season (though by an admittedly slim margin). I'd say Tyler has been the fifth-best player in the league so far. It's not really a slight on him as much as it is a statement of how impressive Douglas, McClinton, Lawson, and Henderson have been.

Also, it says a lot about the talent level of the league that Jeff Teague is not one of the five best players this year. He's a very close 6th (right now), but still, wow.

[Clipsfan]

you would really put henderson on this team over hansborough? Seriously?

Here are the two stat lines for ACC games (you can probably figure out which is which easily). Which would you choose? Don't forget, UNC plays at a 10% faster tempo, suggesting that you should inflate Gerald's numbers shown below to compensate. I have not done so.


FG% FT% PPG RPG TOs APG SPG BPG
53% 73% 20.2 5.33 2.58 2.67 2.00 0.42
51% 84% 19.3 8.23 1.15 2.00 0.62 0.46

Which would you consider more worthy of first team recognition?

[pfrduke]

Here are the two stat lines for ACC games (you can probably figure out which is which easily). Which would you choose? Don't forget, UNC plays at a 10% faster tempo, suggesting that you should inflate Gerald's numbers shown below to compensate. I have not done so.


FG% FT% PPG RPG TOs APG SPG BPG
53% 73% 20.2 5.33 2.58 2.67 2.00 0.42
51% 84% 19.3 8.23 1.15 2.00 0.62 0.46

Which would you consider more worthy of first team recognition?

And to preempt any counterargument on this front, both average 32 mpg in ACC play.

[JDev]

If you look just at the way each has played in ACC games this year, it's not outlandish. Henderson averages more points (with a slightly lower offensive rating, but a higher usage) and has been a more valuable player to his team. He's also been much more consistent, and plays better defense. Hansbrough's numbers (while still impressive) are down from last year, he's had two games where he's been held to single digits (and another at 11), his shooting has not been as accurate, and he only has 5 double figure rebounding games. I think Douglas and McClinton are no brainer picks above Hansbrough, I think Lawson is more valuable (and more deserving) off his own team, and I think Henderson has had a better conference season (though by an admittedly slim margin). I'd say Tyler has been the fifth-best player in the league so far. It's not really a slight on him as much as it is a statement of how impressive Douglas, McClinton, Lawson, and Henderson have been.

Asked and answered. Great post. I think Henderson is one of the absolute locks for All ACC First Team. Don't let Hansbrough's career fool you. This year, in the ACC, Henderson has flat out been better.

[Papa John]

you would really put henderson on this team over hansborough? Seriously?

Yes.

[jv001]

you would really put henderson on this team over hansborough? Seriously?

Absolutely! lawson is their mvp. Go Duke!

[JDev]

Another interesting question that can be pondered about now is who will win the ACC superlatives. I think the POY discussion is just as difficult as picking a five-man first team. I had trouble deciding who I would select among the many candidates. I might be way off, but I ultimately settled on:

Player of the Year: Jack McClinton (23ppg, 3rpg, 3apg, 47% 3pt., 86%ft)

Rookie of the Year: Sylven Landesburg, UVA (18ppg, 6rpg, 2.9apg)

Defensive Player of the Year: Toney Douglas

Coach of the Year: Oliver Purnell

* - I think Douglas has a great case for POY as well. Good arguments can be made for G, Hansbrough, Lawson, Teague, and maybe even a few others. I had trouble deciding and I think in these last two weeks a lot of guys can move up or down this list a great deal, and the picture might be clearer.

[Bob Green]

James Johnson revved up his resume with a 28 points and 18 rebounds game against NCSU tonight. I didn't see the game but his stat line is definitely impressive.

[roywhite]

Heading into the final weekend of regular season play, most voters likely have a pretty firm idea of their All-ACC picks. Here are my picks (I'll say these are the picks I believe most likely to be made by the voters, though my own choices are pretty much the same):

1st Team
Toney Douglas
Gerald Henderson
Tyler Hansbrough
Ty Lawson
Jeff Teague

2nd Team
Jack McClinton
Kyle Singler
A.D. Vassallo
Tyrese Rice
Greivis Vasquez

3rd Team
Malcolm Delaney
Wayne Ellington
James Johnson
Danny Green
Trevor Booker


Comments---some other guards are close to Lawson for 1st team, but despite Lawson's defensive limitations, he has great numbers in assists and FG%. I had some reservations about Teague because he tailed off during mid-season, but he and Wake are finishing strong. There are a lot of really good players in the league this year; the 3rd Team is excellent.

[Wander]

1st Team
Toney Douglas
Gerald Henderson
Tyler Hansbrough
Ty Lawson
Jeff Teague

2nd Team
Jack McClinton
Kyle Singler
A.D. Vassallo
Tyrese Rice
Greivis Vasquez

3rd Team
Malcolm Delaney
Wayne Ellington
James Johnson
Danny Green
Trevor Booker


Switch Booker with Vasquez and I have the exact same teams as you. Grevis started out conference way too poorly to be ahead of those third team guys.

[gw67]

I suspect that Henderson, Hansbrough, Lawson, Douglas, McClinton and Teague will garner the most votes with McClinton and Teague fighting it out for the 5th spot.

Bilas noted the large number of ACC players who are having All ACC seasons and suggested expanding the 1st team to ten players.

gw67

[Olympic Fan]

Let me join the chorus of those saying that Toney Douglas is not only a lock first-teamer -- he's a very viable POY candidate.

Here's the case for him:

-- He's without debate the best defensive player in the league. Earlier this week, Coach K started to call him the best defensive player in the nation, then remembered the shot-blocker Thabeet and amended that to the best perimeter defender in the nation.

-- He's the top scorer in ACC play -- ahead of McClinton, Delaney, Teague, Henderson and Hansbrough (in that order).

-- He's also the playmaker and leader for a young team (six first-year players in the rotation) that's going to finish in the ACC's top four.

By comparison, UNC's Lawson is the best playmaker in the league and a fair scorer. But he's a HORRIBLE defender ... just look at UNC's loses and close calls and you'll see that his defensive assignment is the reason (Teague, McClintock and Douglas all went plus 30 on him; Rice had 28 points and 8 assists; not sure he's to blame for Vasquez's 35 point night). He's good, but he's consistently been outplayed by the league's other great PGs.

McClinton is pretty much a non-factor at the defensive end. He also has the burden of his team's failure -- a veteran team picked to finish third in the ACC is going to wind up in the NIT.

Hansbrough is being hurt by the fact that he's not playing up to expectations and he's not playing as well as last year. But his play -- taken out of the context of his career -- is still terrific. He is leading th ACC in scoring overall (although sixth in ACC play). He is the best big man in the league (ahead of Trevor Booker). Nevertheless, I agree that Lawson is the MVP of that team.

If I had a vote, it would go to Henderson IF he has a big game Sunday and leads Duke to a share of the regulat season title. If that doesn't happen, my MVP vote would go to Douglas.

[blueprofessor]

on a five-man team,but this year we may see a tie vote with 6 players selected because of the number of excellent guards and wings.
Caveat: present trends continue.

So, to solve the space problem, I will name 6 to the first team:
Singler(POY):D
Henderson:D
Hanstravel
Teague
Douglas(DPOY)--who almost single-handedly beat UNC last night ,while dominating the game on both ends, and who unfortunately tried to draw a foul in the last seconds of a tie game on Hanstravel that had as much chance of being called as Aminu's closing foul on Hendo-----a magnificent player and leader.
Lawson


... while I am sticking with my others: Hendo ,Hanstravel, Teague, Lawson, and Douglas ( ACC DPOY and ACC POY if Hendo does not get it) for 1st team all-ACC.

Best regards--Blueprof:)

[wisteria]

G is snubbed. Both G and Singler are voted NABC ALL-ACC 2nd team.

[roywhite]

G is snubbed. Both G and Singler are voted NABC ALL-ACC 2nd team.

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/henderson-snubbed-by-nabc

Surprised to see that. Here is a link.

At least the N&O blogger (none other than Caulton Tudor) thought Henderson was deserving of 1st Team.

[blueprofessor]

G is snubbed. Both G and Singler are voted NABC ALL-ACC 2nd team.

the Atlantic Coast Sports Media Association and voting deadline is Sunday.

Link:http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/henderson-snubbed-by-nabc

I am betting Hendo, not McClinton ,makes that team.:):D

Best--Blueprof:)

[gw67]

I suspect that the NABC based their votes on the total season. Henderson has had a terrific ACC season but, overall, those named ahead of him have performed better over the entire season (see link below).

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2008-2009/confldrs.html

There have been occasions in the past where a player has been ACC POY (Dixon?) but not a 1st team All American (Williams?). You are not comparing the performances over the same number of games.

gw67

[ClosetHurleyFan]

Here are the two stat lines for ACC games (you can probably figure out which is which easily). Which would you choose? Don't forget, UNC plays at a 10% faster tempo, suggesting that you should inflate Gerald's numbers shown below to compensate. I have not done so.


FG% FT% PPG RPG TOs APG SPG BPG
53% 73% 20.2 5.33 2.58 2.67 2.00 0.42
51% 84% 19.3 8.23 1.15 2.00 0.62 0.46

Which would you consider more worthy of first team recognition?

Hansborough has 25 points, 12 rebounds in his last two outings heading into Sunday......he might be pulling ahead on stats alone.

[BlueintheFace]

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/henderson-snubbed-by-nabc

[gw67]

That is not the All ACC team. That team is chosen by ACC sportswriters not the NABC. The NABC chose players from the ACC area for All american consideration. As I mentioned in the All ACC thread, I suspect that the coaches looked at the performance for the entire year. While Henderson has been terrific during the ACC season, his performance comes up short of those chosen ahead of him when the whole season is considered.

gw67

[roywhite]

Hansborough has 25 points, 12 rebounds in his last two outings heading into Sunday......he might be pulling ahead on stats alone.

I fully expect Henderson and Hansbrough both to be named 1st Team by the ACC sportswriters. Do you agree?

The last spot (Douglas, Hansbrough, Henderson, Lawson) should be between McClinton and Teague; I prefer Teague, mostly because of his versatility and role in winning more games.

[gumbomoop]

Heading into the final weekend of regular season play, most voters likely have a pretty firm idea of their All-ACC picks. Here are my picks (I'll say these are the picks I believe most likely to be made by the voters, though my own choices are pretty much the same):

1st Team
Toney Douglas
Gerald Henderson
Tyler Hansbrough
Ty Lawson
Jeff Teague

2nd Team
Jack McClinton
Kyle Singler
A.D. Vassallo
Tyrese Rice
Greivis Vasquez

3rd Team
Malcolm Delaney
Wayne Ellington
James Johnson
Danny Green
Trevor Booker


Comments---some other guards are close to Lawson for 1st team, but despite Lawson's defensive limitations, he has great numbers in assists and FG%. I had some reservations about Teague because he tailed off during mid-season, but he and Wake are finishing strong. There are a lot of really good players in the league this year; the 3rd Team is excellent.

Excellent list, though I agree with Wander that Booker gets 2d team (and very close to first), so that moves Vasquez to 3d. Teague v. McClinton for first team is real tight, and I can see that it's probably a 3-man fight between those 2 and Hendo for 2 spots on 1st team. Hendo got off pretty slowly, so that might pull him down to 2d team, despite his dominance in last, what, 10 games or more?

Honestly, movement for several players between 1st and 2d team, and between 2d and 3d, will probably be decided this weekend.

POY and DPOY - Douglas, esp. if FSU ends 10-6.

[BlueintheFace]

That is not the All ACC team. That team is chosen by ACC sportswriters not the NABC.

Good thing I included that fact in the title and that your point is made almost verbatim in the article.;)

Still, I'm not sure Henderson doesn't belong on that list anyways... hence, the title of the article.

[blueprofessor]

There have been occasions in the past where a player has been ACC POY (Dixon?) but not a 1st team All American (Williams?). You are not comparing the performances over the same number of games.

gw67

1st team all-ACC.:D

On the other hand, I like Ralph Sampson's line:1981-1982-1983:ACC POY and NPOY!

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

[Uncle Drew]

I suspect that the NABC based their votes on the total season. Henderson has had a terrific ACC season but, overall, those named ahead of him have performed better over the entire season (see link below).

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2008-2009/confldrs.html

There have been occasions in the past where a player has been ACC POY (Dixon?) but not a 1st team All American (Williams?). You are not comparing the performances over the same number of games.

gw67

One year JR Reid was ACC POY instead of Ferry, but Ferry made 1st team All-American if I'm not mistaken. For some reason I'm thinking it was the 1987-88 season. Because Ferry's senior year he was ACC POY, 1st team All-American and split awards with Sean Elliot for national POY. If Andrew Gaze hadn't cut Robert Brickie's legs out from under him in the Final Four we could / SHOULD have been celebrating our first national champiosnhip that year. Okay, I'm off the soap box now.

[roywhite]

Excellent list, though I agree with Wander that Booker gets 2d team (and very close to first), so that moves Vasquez to 3d. Teague v. McClinton for first team is real tight, and I can see that it's probably a 3-man fight between those 2 and Hendo for 2 spots on 1st team. Hendo got off pretty slowly, so that might pull him down to 2d team, despite his dominance in last, what, 10 games or more?

Honestly, movement for several players between 1st and 2d team, and between 2d and 3d, will probably be decided this weekend.

POY and DPOY - Douglas, esp. if FSU ends 10-6.

You may have a good point on Booker. He leads the conference in rebounding and FG %. It's surprising to see him scoring less than 15 points (14.8) in conference games. That's a major failure by Clemson if they're not getting the ball to him enough.

[BlueintheFace]

I feel like moderators are not only cracking down on content, but also threads.

There are really only 3 awards handed out this year relevant to this team.

1) NABC All-ACC team
2) ACC Media All-ACC Team
3) ACC Tourney MVP/ First Team

I figured that number (1) deserved a thread and discussion separate from (2), but obviously not.

I also started a thread recently that discussed the rest of the season, including the ACC tournament, strategy on playing time, and injuries.... and it got merged in to the UNC pre-game thread. I still can't understand why this would happen. The discussion topic included a bit of discussion on the Carolina game, but also an entirely different (and arguably more important) dynamic.

I really don't mind having threads merged at all. Most of the time, the mods are right about it, but I am slowly becoming annoyed. It is not as though turnover on threads is getting too high... meanwhile I see a thread on BCS football up near the top of the main board and a thread on ACC final standings scenarios, which is pretty much as relevant to the Carolina game as a thread on player management down the stretch... perhaps we should merge it with the Carolina pre-game thread too.

hmmm...

[blueprofessor]

Honestly, movement for several players between 1st and 2d team, and between 2d and 3d, will probably be decided this weekend.

POY and DPOY - Douglas, esp. if FSU ends 10-6.

since the deadline is Sunday,but many voters for college honors do not wait for the last game games (see Heisman Award).

Best--Blueprof:)

[blueprofessor]

There have been occasions in the past where a player has been ACC POY (Dixon?) but not a 1st team All American (Williams?). You are not comparing the performances over the same number of games.

gw67

20 times,considering AP and UPI all-America 1st teams.

Best--Blueprof:)

[roywhite]

20 times,considering AP and UPI all-America 1st teams.

Best--Blueprof:)

Actually, I think there was year where the ACC POY was not 1st team All-ACC. In 1966 Steve Vacendak of Duke was ACC POY and I believe was not on the 1st team All-ACC.

Something about the POY being announced after the ACC Tournament, where Vacendak was key to the Blue Devils championship?

[blueprofessor]

Actually, I think there was year where the ACC POY was not 1st team All-ACC. In 1966 Steve Vacendak of Duke was ACC POY and I believe was not on the 1st team All-ACC.

Something about the POY being announced after the ACC Tournament, where Vacendak was key to the Blue Devils championship?

in 1966,but on the 2nd team all-ACC (the 9th highest vote-getter).I believe this is the only time it has occurred( POY and not 1st team all-ACC).

You are correct---Vacendak had a great tourney and was named tournament MVP and ACC POY ---both awards announced at the ACC tourney.

As far as the ACC POY not making 1st team UPI or AP all-America,the years through 1987 are: 54,55,56,58,59,60,61,64,65,66,67,69,70,71,72,76,77 ,85,and 87.Most of the names are very familiar: Hemric,Shavlik,R'bluth,Chappell,Mullins,Cunn'ham,V acendak,Miller,Roche,Parkhill,Kupchak,Bias, and Grant.

Some are not so very familiar: Brennan,Pucillo, Shaffer, Davis,and Griffin.

Best regards--Blueprof:)

[ACCBBallFan]

I ranked based on metrics pretty much the same players GW67 listed, and the results might surprise you, such as AD Vassallo and Malcolm Delaney who play such a key role for Seth Greenberg.

Hansbrough, Landesberg, Fells and Clinch are lower than they would be had they played as many games, so I made an adjustment to put everybody on a 30 games played basis.

This is not to say metrics alone should determine All-ACC, just that there may be some other bona fide candidates not discussed yet much in this thread, such as Trapani from BC, as well as some who benefit from halos.

Rating NAME

2052 Trevor Booker
2043 A.D. Vassallo
2026 Tyler Hansbrough
2002 Toney Douglas
1942 Malcolm Delaney

1941 Greivis Vasquez
1915 Kyle Singler
1893 Sylven Landesberg
1867 James Johnson
1865 Gani Lawal

1839 Jeff Allen
1824 Jeff Teague
1799 Tyrese Rice
1776 Ben McCauley
1772 Jack McClinton

1768 K.C. Rivers
1730 Gerald Henderson
1718 Ty Lawson
1717 Al-Farouq Aminu
1696 Joe Trapani

1678 Wayne Ellington
1666 Jon Scheyer
1653 Lewis Clinch
1653 Alade Aminu
1618 Brandon Costner

1617 Danny Green
1548 Landon Milbourne
1531 Iman Shumpert
1488 Courtney Fells
1479 Deon Thompson

1307 Terrence Oglesby
1096 Tracy Smith

[jipops]

I don't believe in past seasons' accomplishments carrying over to current season's rewards. So in my opinion, these are the best five players in the ACC right now:

Toney Douglas
Gerald Henderson
Trevor Booker
Ty Lawson
Jeff Teague


The real snubs here are McClinton and Rice, not Hansbrough.

So 2nd team is:
McClinton
Rice
Hansbrough
Singler
Vasquez

3rd team:
Johnson
Delaney
Ellington
Green
Vassallo

[Olympic Fan]

For those of you interested in ACC oddities, the Vacendak selection in 1966 is a good one -- the 9th vote-getter in the All-ACC voting, but he won the ACC POY after having a great tourney ... interesting that three of the top four vote-getters in the POY balloting were from Duke - Vacendak, Marin, Bob Lewis of UNC and Verga.

Other oddities:

2002 -- Jason Williams of Duke was the unanimous national POY, but he lost ACC POY to Juan Dixon. Dixon was, however, a concensus first-team A-A.

1986 -- Johnny Dawkins of Duke wins the Naismith Award as the national POY and is a concensus first-team All-American. But he loses the ACC POY to Maryland's Len Bias, who was also a first team A-A (but didn't win any national POY awards).

1969 -- UNC's Charlie Scott is concensus second-team A-A, but loses the ACC POY to South Carolina's John Roche, who didn't make enough A-A teams for any concensus team.

Actually, the Scott/Roche votes in 1969 and 1970 were a blatant example of the racism still inherent in the league. In 1968, Scott was the star of the league's best teams. Roche's scoring average was slightly more than Scott (although Scott was superior in every significant statistical category) for a team that tied for third -- yet the voters picked Roche. It was a telltale fact that five voters left Scott -- a second team A-A -- off their All-ACC ballots entirely.

A year later, South Carolina was the best team. But Scott, playing for the second place team, outscored Roche by over six points a game and was again far superior in shooting percentage, rebounding ... and the voters again voted for the white guy over the ACC's first black star.

There are some other fun oddities. In the early 1970s, big men began to dominate the All-ACC voting, so some coaches (Dean Smith) convinced the media association to pick its teams by position. That's how All-Americans Tom McMillen and Tommy Burleson both ended up as second-team All-ACC picks in 1974. But consider the voters dilemma -- that year the seven-team ACC had four future NBA starters starting at center: Burleson, Len Elmore, Mitch Kupchak and Tree Rollins starting at center; five future NBA starters starting at forward David Thompson, Bobby Jones, Tom McMillen, Wally Walker and Walter Davis starting at forward (I know Thompson and Davis played guard in the NBA, but they were clearly forwards in 1974). That leaves out Gus Gerald of Virginia (the No.2 scorer and No. 5 rebounder in the league and Duke's Bob Fleischer (the No. 2 rebounder in the ACC), plus 1975 second team All-ACC forward Owen Brown and 1973 (he was still there in 1974) second-team All-ACC forward Chris Redding.

Now try picking two centers (a first and second teamer) and four forwards (two first and two second) out of THAT group.

[roywhite]

1969 -- UNC's Charlie Scott is concensus second-team A-A, but loses the ACC POY to South Carolina's John Roche, who didn't make enough A-A teams for any concensus team.

Actually, the Scott/Roche votes in 1969 and 1970 were a blatant example of the racism still inherent in the league. In 1968, Scott was the star of the league's best teams. Roche's scoring average was slightly more than Scott (although Scott was superior in every significant statistical category) for a team that tied for third -- yet the voters picked Roche. It was a telltale fact that five voters left Scott -- a second team A-A -- off their All-ACC ballots entirely.


http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=19690308

Your comments about POY and Charlie Scott reminded me of one of the best performances I've ever seen by an ACC player, Charlie Scott's 40 point game vs Duke in the 1969 ACC finals.

This was Vic Bubas's last year at Duke and after an up-and-down year (which included defeating UNC at Indoor Stadium) Duke upset South Carolina in the ACC semi-finals and played very well in the finals vs Carolina, leading by 9 at half-time. But in the second half Charlie Scott just took over the game.

As the stats indicate, he went 17-23 from the field and a good number of the shots would have been outside today's 3-point line. He simply could not be stopped.

As you indicate, Charlie Scott didn't get fair recognition at the time, and is probably overlooked to this day when talking about all-time ACC players. He was a great college player and was at his best in that ACC Tournament Final.

[jimsumner]

"Actually, the Scott/Roche votes in 1969 and 1970 were a blatant example of the racism still inherent in the league. In 1968, Scott was the star of the league's best teams. Roche's scoring average was slightly more than Scott (although Scott was superior in every significant statistical category) for a team that tied for third -- yet the voters picked Roche. It was a telltale fact that five voters left Scott -- a second team A-A -- off their All-ACC ballots entirely.

A year later, South Carolina was the best team. But Scott, playing for the second place team, outscored Roche by over six points a game and was again far superior in shooting percentage, rebounding ... and the voters again voted for the white guy over the ACC's first black star."

And the year after that Roche made most of the A-A teams but Charlie Davis (justifiably) was named ACC POY.

I've always wondered about Barry Parkhill over Robert McAdoo in 1972 but that is nowhere near as suspicious as Roche/Scott.

There have been numerous times when the leading vote-getter for All-ACC did not win POY; 1966 (Bob Lewis), 1967 (Bob Verga) and 2004 (Rashad McCants) off the top of my head.

And Vacendak in 1966 simply defies rational comprehension. Bob Lewis on stats, Jack Marin factoring in team success. But if Vacendak was best player he had to be first-team All-ACC. If he's not first-team All-ACC, then he can't be POY.

[oso diablo]

I ranked based on metrics pretty much the same players GW67 listed, and the results might surprise you, such as AD Vassallo and Malcolm Delaney who play such a key role for Seth Greenberg.

it looks to me that you overweight Points Scored in your model.

I've been doing a model for more than a decade which looks at 8 statistical categories. There is a small weighting adjustment, but the 8 categories end up more even than not.

I can't find full player stats for solely ACC games, but based on full-year stats (through Sunday night), I have this top 10:

1. Jeff Teague
2. Trevor Booker
3. Ty Lawson
4. Toney Douglas
5. TH
6. Ty Rice
7. Malcolm Delaney
8. James Johnson
9. Kyle Singler
10. Jeff Allen

My top 5 for all-ACC are the consensus 4 (TH, Lawson, GH, Douglas) plus Teague or Booker, depending on who wins Sunday night.

p.s. Jack McClinton is what i call an "empty scorer". He's excellent at that one skill, but he doesn't contribute much elsewhere. 18 steals for his position is pathetic.

[blueprofessor]

"Actually, the Scott/Roche votes in 1969 and 1970 were a blatant example of the racism still inherent in the league. In 1968, Scott was the star of the league's best teams. Roche's scoring average was slightly more than Scott (although Scott was superior in every significant statistical category) for a team that tied for third -- yet the voters picked Roche. It was a telltale fact that five voters left Scott -- a second team A-A -- off their All-ACC ballots entirely.

A year later, South Carolina was the best team. But Scott, playing for the second place team, outscored Roche by over six points a game and was again far superior in shooting percentage, rebounding ... and the voters again voted for the white guy over the ACC's first black star."

And the year after that Roche made most of the A-A teams but Charlie Davis (justifiably) was named ACC POY.

I've always wondered about Barry Parkhill over Robert McAdoo in 1972 but that is nowhere near as suspicious as Roche/Scott.






Charlie Scott was my favorite UNC player and I got to watch him play several years along with Roche while at Duke.

One of the courses I teach at the Ph.D. and Master's level is ethics and we had a case that had to do with selection of one person over another for promotion.One person was black and the other was white.It took 2 class sessions so that everyone could look at the evidence to see if there was any basis for an accusation of racism given how often that term is hurled and the fact that it is a serious charge.The second class was quite different from the first as the students jettisoned any prejudgment and focused on the data before them. They expressed that they learned that just because a decision does not go your way does not mean there were ulterior motives.In other words, just because someone does not get something(even though you believed that person should have), it may be based on many factors,not racism. It may simply be due to the decision maker's having an innocent, but conflicting opinion.

Voters may not agree with a fan's choice, but that is not ipso facto racist.
So, I examined the years mentioned by Jim and others in proximity to determine if racism were apparent in award selections.

I looked back starting in 1968.
Scott was 3rd in voting(166 votes) for the all-ACC team; with unanimous selections(190 votes each) Lewis and Miller finished just ahead of him.Both had fine years and Miller would become a 2nd team AA and Lewis 3rd team AA.Miller was tourney MVP. UNC finished 1 game ahead of Duke in the ACC; both had excellent overall records.
While Miller was second in scoring and Lewis was 4th at 21.7 (and led the league in rebounding with14.4 per game), Scott was a distant 8th in scoring.Yet,Scott finished ahead of the scoring leader by 64 votes,another player (6th in scoring and 2nd in rebounds with12.2 per game) by 74 votes, a third player(3rd in scoring) by7 points, and Eddie Biedenbach by 16.
No apparent racism by voters here,yet it was 1 and 2 years earlier than the 1969 and 1970 seasons, ones in question,respectively.

1969.
In 1969,UNC edged SC by one game in the ACC and both would enjoy excellent overall records.Roche, playing a more demanding position than Scott (Roche controlled the ball like a Hurley on XXX steroids),was second(23.6) in the league in scoring and scored 33% of his team's points (Scott was 5th in scoring at 22.3, 25% of UNC's points).
Roche and Scott were unanimous selections to the all-ACC team(212 votes) with a a black Wake player,Charlie Davis,at the 5th slot with 128 votes.UNC's Bill Bunting (143 votes) was the 3rd highest vote-getter on the 1st team,while UNC's Dick Grubar was second team.

Owens was the only other SC player recognized----2nd team.

Davis finished ahead of Owens, Grubar, Denton and other 2nd teamers by a good margin.In fact ,Davis was named on the 1st team all-tourney team,even though his team was not in the final.

So,Scott was a unanimous pick and Davis on the 1st team---no apparent racism here. Scott won 2nd team AP and UPI AA honors., while Roche was on lesser AA teams. Roche would go on to become 2nd team AP and UPI and later 1st team UPI AA in 1970 and 1971,respectively.
Scott was on a talented UNC team--- Besides Bunting and Grubar was Rusty Clark, who averaged 9.2 rebounds a game.Owens was the only other SC player recognized----2nd team.
UNC finished 1 game ahead of SC and won the tourney,with Scott named MVP.
SC had a depth problem and only 5 Gamecocks played when they defeated UNC 68-66,while losing the rematch in the last seconds 68-62.

Roche,with a less talented team playing a more demanding position and more valuable to his team, won ACC POY by 56 to 39, with UNC's Bunting also receiving votes.
No racism apparent here.

1970.
The SC team was one of the greatest in ACC history(14-0,overall 25-3)--sweeping through the ACC w/o a loss,a feat accomplished before only by Duke in 1963 and UNC in 1957.
Defeating UNC (ACC 9-5, overall 18-9) twice,and despite losing the ACC championship game ,with Roche playing on an injured ankle suffered in the prior game, SC finished 6th in the final AP and UPI polls.
On the all-tourney team, the black Charlie Davis of Wake finished on the 1st team , while Scott and Roche were second teamers.

Scott led the ACC in scoring(27.1, 30 % of UNC's scoring).Roche,despite again running the SC offense was 4th at 22.3 (also 30% of his team's scoring).Roche and Scott were both unanimous all-ACC ,with 212 votes each.
Roche was joined by talented Tom Owens on the first team all-ACC

Scott's 1970 teammates were talented and included Eddie Fogler,Steve Previs,Bill Chamberlain(2nd team all-ACC in 1972),Lee Dedmon,and Dennis Wuycik(1st team all-ACC in 1971 and 1972).Chamberlain and Wuycik would become AAs.

No racism apparent here.

Roche and Scott were 2nd team AP and UPI AA.

Roche nosed Scott for ACC POY 51--47, with Williford (a strong 1st team all-ACC selection with 208 votes, 3rd highest on the team)taking 16 votes and Wake's Davis getting 4.

No apparent racism here.

1971.
Scott had departed ,but Roche and Davis returned. Without Scott,UNC's record improved from 9-5 to a conference leading 11-3, one game ahead of SC.
Likewise. UNC's overall record improved to 26-6 from 18-9

Wake was 4th at 7-7 and a lukewarm overall of 16-10.

Davis led the league in scoring at 26.5, with Roche 2nd at 21.6.

SC won the tourney ,with Roche co-MVP,with Dedmon. Davis was on the 2nd all-tourney team.

Yet only Davis was a unanimous all-ACC choice (242 votes).Roche garnered 240 votes.

Roche was 1st team UPI AA and 2nd team AP AA.
Davis made neither team.

Yet, Davis was ACC POY in a landslide, contrary to the close Roche--Scott tallies.
Davis won 86 votes to Roche's 30, with Wuycik receiving 4.

No apparent racism here.

Then in 1973, 1974,and 1975, another black player,David Thompson, was ACC POY.

No apparent racism here either.

As for Parkhill and McAdoo in 1972, Parkhill was the ACC's leading scorer at 21.6 and McAdoo was 4th at 19.5 as well as 4th in rebounds.

UNC had a 9-3 ACC record,followed by UVA and MD at 8-4.

Despite not getting to the tourney final, Parkhill was all-tourney 1st team with 3 Tarheels(who won the championship) : Wuycik, Karl, and McAdoo.

Four Tarheels were all-ACC that year: Wuycik and McAdoo on the 1st team, and Chamberlain and Karl on the 2nd team.Parhill was unanimous with 214 votes and McAdoo had 209.McMillen of MD had 198,with Wuycik at 189,and Burleson at 178.
In voting for the 2 teams, Tarheels ranked 2,4,6,and 9----by far the most talented collection in the league.
BTW,the Tarheels also had a talented Bobby Jones in the starting lineup.

The Cavaliers' Bill Gibson won the ACC COY in a landslide over Dean Smith.

Parkhill and McAdoo were both 2nd team UPI and AP AAs.
Parkhill,a great leader and player,got 80 votes for ACC POY to UNC's Wuycik's 12 and McAdoo's 10. UNC's Chamberlain also received votes.
The year after the black Davis won POY, voters selected an outstanding Parkhill because UNC was simply full of great players.

While some may disagree with a choice or two, there is absolutely no pattern of racism here.

Best regards--Blueprofessor:)

[jimsumner]

According to my recollection and page 92 of the ACC media guide (available online at theacc.com), John Roche was the only unanimous first-team All-ACC player in 1969, with 176 points. Scott had 171. Meaning that five voters did not vote Scott first-team All-ACC.

I was a freshman at Duke in 1969 and remember the news leaking that the five voters who did not think Scott worthy of first-team All-ACC were from South Carolina.

Scott was more than just a gifted black basketball player. He was quite proud of his heritage and his role in helping to integrate UNC basketball. I'm unaware that he did or said anything that would draw a second glance today but it was 1969 and folks characterized Scott as an angry black athlete. He scared people who maybe needed to be scared.

But if you weren't there, you can't imagine how charged was the racial environment. I heard C.B. Claiborne subjected to vicious racial invective in Cameron. Don't know the origin of the fans.

BTW, the quote about blatant racism came from Olympic Fan not me. But I think he/she remembers the same things I do.

So, the idea that John Roche benefitted from racial attitudes is not far-fetched at all.

[roywhite]

As a contemporary of Jim Sumner, I recall also that the relationship of South Carolina in general to other teams in the league was very contentious, and especially as regards to Duke and UNC. It was not just a rivalry, but downright animosity between USC--UNC and between USC--Duke, a higher level of bitterness than we see today between in-conference schools.

Among the factors involved were:

1. South Carolina's feeling of being an outsider in a league politically dominated by the 4 North Carolina ACC schools.

2. Issues regarding ACC recruiting and eligibility rules where South Carolina felt the ACC was unreasonable and would not admit student/athletes who could attend SEC schools

3. The presence of Coach Frank McGuire, who played up the chip-on-the shoulder attitude and was a win at all costs type.

4. The very tough, competitive players that McGuire attracted including John Roche and Bobby Cremins and "enforcers" like John Ribock.

The controversies also involved a number of football--related issues, and South Carolina eventually withdrew from the league in 1971, a move which set back their athletic programs for decades.

So, with the context of these issues and the tense racial atmosphere of the time, it's not surprising that such things as All-ACC selection were affected by regional and school politics.

[blueprofessor]

As a contemporary of Jim Sumner, I recall also that the relationship of South Carolina in general to other teams in the league was very contentious, and especially as regards to Duke and UNC. It was not just a rivalry, but downright animosity between USC--UNC and between USC--Duke, a higher level of bitterness than we see today between in-conference schools.

Among the factors involved were:

1. South Carolina's feeling of being an outsider in a league politically dominated by the 4 North Carolina ACC schools.

2. Issues regarding ACC recruiting and eligibility rules where South Carolina felt the ACC was unreasonable and would not admit student/athletes who could attend SEC schools

3. The presence of Coach Frank McGuire, who played up the chip-on-the shoulder attitude and was a win at all costs type.

4. The very tough, competitive players that McGuire attracted including John Roche and Bobby Cremins and "enforcers" like John Ribock.

The controversies also involved a number of football--related issues, and South Carolina eventually withdrew from the league in 1971, a move which set back their athletic programs for decades.

So, with the context of these issues and the tense racial atmosphere of the time, it's not surprising that such things as All-ACC selection were affected by regional and school politics.

Well,I was at Duke Law and there was intense hatred by ACC teams toward SC and vice-versa.Even Duke pals rooted for UNC vs. SC.
There is no evidence of racism in the fact that 5 (from SC)voters (of 176) did not vote for my favorite UNC player in 1969.State pride, anti-ACC , anti-UNC, pro-Roche dispositions----all are good candidates.
Scott did fabulously well in all voted honors from 1968--1970 as noted in my post.The very next year,1970,for instance, he was unanimous 1st team all-ACC along with Roche.
Scott narrowly(51--47, with the black Wake player Davis taking 4 votes) lost ACC POY in 1970, despite Roche's having led his team to a sensational 14-0 season (only the third in ACC history at that time).If anything, we may have seen the ACC writers striking back against Roche,and, especially, the hated Frank McGuire in the POY voting,as his POY vote decreased from 56 to 51.
Of course many great ACC players,after the SC--ACC feud , were in some years many votes short of unanimous all-ACC selection:Burleson,McMillen,Bobby Jones,Kupchak,Gminski, Spanarkel, Mark Price, Mark Alarie.Voters have their own opinions.
.
There was no shame in Scott's being edged in 1968 by teammate Miller and Duke's Lewis,by Roche subsequently, or in Roche's being beaten for POY in a landslide (86--30) by Davis in 1971 (despite Wake's 7-7 record compared to SC's 10-4, and despite Roche's 1st team AA ----in fact this last vote certainly suggests that ACC voters had had their fill of McGuire and SC---and SC did leave the ACC before the 1972 season).
Beginning in 1973, as a matter of fact, 13 of the next 15 ACC POYs were black.No racism there either.

Best regards---Blueprofessor:)

[gw67]

As an long time poster and an old coot who saw both Scott and Roche play and, at the time, argued with my dad about who was the better player, I want to thank jimsummer, roywhite, blueprofessor and olympic fan for offering thorough and well written descriptions/arguments about a situation that occurred nearly 40 years ago. I was going to offer my two cents but I realized that I didn't have the memory or writing ability to take part. This is just one of many examples why this is the best college basketball site around. Thanks again, fellas!

gw67